Born to Burn

[Mephisto]

I know this has probably been brought up before, but I couldn't find a string on it after some searching.

What I'm pondering is the validity behind the Christian claim that we have free will. I'm centering my thoughts around the story of Adam and Eve.

Now, if we choose to believe the Biblical story of creation, AND buy the idea that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, then how did Adam and Eve possibly have the freedom to choose?

If God knows all even before it happens, then he knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit even before he created them. He knew this, yet he still laid the penalty for disobedience so high. Now, if we are supposed to act according to God's will, and God is actually omniscient then isn't anything we do according to God's will?

I can't understand how people can be sold on the idea of original sin if Adam and Eve were only acting according to God's will. Original sin has always seemed to me a method to place someone (anyone) in debt to a God no one has ever seen. The best analogy I can come up with is telling you that my great, great, great, great grandfather once loaned your great, great, great, great grandfather some money and now YOU have to pay ME back. Sounds pretty preposterous, but how many believe the story of Adam and Eve and how many believe they are born with original sin?

The selling of original sin to the masses is to me like the marketing of the "Pet Rock," I wish I'd thought of it first! Even more astounding is the fact that the packaging of a "saviour" costs even less than the Pet Rock (no rocks to buy, no packages to pay for and no shipping costs). Of course the expense of that saviour went up considerably when you add in the holy wars, the crusades, the inquisitions and all the independant acts of holy aggression.

[I'll_buy_that]

He did know that they would sin. He put up the tree, then dared them not to eat from it. So really, god likes to play games and tease.

[Mephisto]

It does seem that God likes to play silly little games.

The other one that bothers me is "Worship the Almighty."

I've yet had a Christian explain to me why the creator of the entire universe requires that I worship him? If he is indeed the creator of the universe doesn't he know how powerful he is, or does he require the adoration of ants as well?

It's almost as if God is the grossly insecure CEO of a poorly run corporation. I wonder how far God would have gotten if there were a celestial game show like "The Apprentice?" He's almost like George W. Bush, he only got to where he is because everyone knew his father.

[toddjh]

My wife used to be a Christian, and had a somewhat interesting take on this (she's now more or less a generic deist, but I have hope for her yet :) ).

She said that God doesn't know the future. He knows everything that's happening now, and certain things that will unavoidably happen no matter what (she threw that in to justify prophecies, I think), but he isn't sure what choices people are going to make down the line.

Despite its contradictions with mainstream Christianity, that actually solves a lot of problems. Free will is no longer an issue, and prayer actually makes a little bit of sense. Plus, it's probably a bit more interesting for God -- can you imagine how boring it gets after a few billion years of sitting there and watching your clockwork creation tick?

Jeremy

[jmercer]

Well... I had posted something about Adam and Eve and God's actions in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54460&perpage=40&highlight=adam&pagenumber=2). Given the context of this thread, it might be worth a discussion. :)

Originally posted by jmercer
Genesis... presents several problems for an omnipotent, omniscient and "merciful" deity, doesn't it? :D

God - who can do anything - creates Adam, and then Eve - in paradise. They're immortal, they're innocent, they're all that and a bag of chips, too. But... this omniscient deity sticks a tree full of forbidden fruit somewhere in this entire paradise. Then he proceeds to show the tree to Adam and Eve... and warns them not to eat of this fruit. Some time later, a serpent talks Eve into eating the forbidden fruit, and then Eve tempts Adam, who likewise eats of it.

A bit later, God goes looking for A&E, and gets them to come out of hiding. He spots their fig leaf; questions them; discovers what's happened, and tosses them all out into the cold, cruel world. He even takes their Immortality Union Cards away.

So.

First off, if God is omnipotent, then He could have easily put the tree somewhere out of reach of A&E. Even better, he could have put a guard on the tree to prevent poachers! (After all, he's got that big 'ol Angel with the flaming sword at the front gate, remember?) Instead, He exposes A&E to temptation, and forbids them from eating this fruit. Yeah. That shows a lot of omniscience - He created A&E, then turned around and showed absolute ignorance of their basic psychology.

Further, His omniscience seemed to have waned even further when it didn't warn him about the serpent's plans... or Eve's danger of being tempted and succumbing to it... or Eve's later seduction of Adam. In fact, God seems to have lost track of A&E entirely, doesn't even know what's going on in his own Garden of Eden (so much for omnipresence as well!) and has to go searching for them after the dirty deed is done!

So much for omniscience... back to omnipotence. Forget about hiding the tree, or guarding it. If God knew that the serpent as trouble, why didn't He keep him out of Eden in the first place?

So, perhaps God isn't omniscient or omnipotent, hmm?? :) Or perhaps He's simply incompetent? ;)

Alternatively, perhaps God is omnpotent and omniscient. In that case... then God deliberately placed the tree where it could be found; deliberately introduced A&E to the forbidden fruit; deliberately left the tree unguarded; deliberately let the serpent have free access to Eve; deliberately permitted Eve to fall to temptation; ignored the situation when Adam was seduced into eating the fruit by Eve; pretended ignorance when trying to find A&E, and also with the initial questioning; then booted A&E out the door like so much refuse.

Well, this paints a pretty ugly picture of God. He takes two innocents and puts them in a position where He knows they'll be corrupted. He lies to them about knowing where they are, and what they've done... and then he kicks them out and condemns them - and all their kids - to death.

And what does he do to the serpent? Sends him out AFTER A&E, and declares them mortal enemies. THAT'S the serpent's punishment? Go out there and screw with mankind? Heh. :D

So, no matter how you look at it, Genesis is not kind to God.

[Richard G]

If God knows all even before it happens, then he knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit even before he created them.

And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Richard G
And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

I love the bizarre mental gymnastics that people inflict on themselves to try to make their mythology consistent...

Jeremy

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Richard G
And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

Uh... so, exactly how many generations of people suffered during life and were sent to hell for all eternity before Jesus died on the cross? And subsequently, how many centuries passed before everyone on earth had the opportunity to learn of Jesus, accept him, and be saved? (Because those that didn't hear about him in time are in hell, too, right?)

Love doesn't seem like an appropriate term...

[I'll_buy_that]

Don't forget the danger of tossing these two out to be eaten by T-Rex :D


Man Walked with Dinosaurs (http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/)

Adam eaten? (http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/)


:D :D :D :D

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Richard G
And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway.

Well, if his love was so great, why didn't he just spare them the inconvenience of allowing them to believe they had a choice, and why didn't he spare the passing on of this "sin" to future generations?

Besides, I can't see how or why we should consider the death of Jesus as a sacrifice anyway, he was only playing according to the rules he (or his father) concocted. Was it all a trick to put us in his debt?

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Mephisto
Besides, I can't see how or why we should consider the death of Jesus as a sacrifice anyway

You know, this has always bothered me about Christianity. Sure, Jesus has a few hours of (admittedly very horrible) pain, but then he moves on to an eternity of bliss. Hell, where can I sign up for that??

I always thought the Jesus myth would play better if he went to hell permanently as part of the sacrifice. Just imagine how much more powerful the guilt trip could be!

Jeremy

[jmercer]

Originally posted by toddjh
You know, this has always bothered me about Christianity. Sure, Jesus has a few hours of (admittedly very horrible) pain, but then he moves on to an eternity of bliss. Hell, where can I sign up for that??

I always thought the Jesus myth would play better if he went to hell permanently as part of the sacrifice. Just imagine how much more powerful the guilt trip could be!

Jeremy

Jesus was Jewish, and you have to understand what Judaic holocausts were all about - they were sacrifices for forgiveness from God. (Much like other religions had sacrifices to placate their deities.) The better the sacrifice, the more favor you found with God.

According to the logic, God decided that it was impossible for mankind to find the perfect and unblemished (by sin) sacrifice, so He came down, was incarnated, and offered himself up as the perfect sacrifice. The amount of suffering and time involved wasn't the issue - it was the perfection of the sacrifice. :)

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by jmercer
Jesus was Jewish, and you have to understand what Judaic holocausts were all about - they were sacrifices for forgiveness from God. (Much like other religions had sacrifices to placate their deities.) The better the sacrifice, the more favor you found with God.

According to the logic, God decided that it was impossible for mankind to find the perfect and unblemished (by sin) sacrifice, so He came down, was incarnated, and offered himself up as the perfect sacrifice. The amount of suffering and time involved wasn't the issue - it was the perfection of the sacrifice. :) That, and Jews do not believe in hell.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Gulliamo
That, and Jews do not believe in hell.

Actually, that's a matter of debate. :)

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by jmercer
Actually, that's a matter of debate. :) I should say, "Many Jews do not believe in hell." However, I will get some clarification during the passover meal this weekend.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Gulliamo
I should say, "Many Jews do not believe in hell." However, I will get some clarification during the passover meal this weekend.

Fair enough - my mother and her family are a good example of that, in fact. Have a good Seder. :)

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by Gulliamo
I should say, "Many Jews do not believe in hell." However, I will get some clarification during the passover meal this weekend.

Originally posted by jmercer
Fair enough - my mother and her family are a good example of that, in fact. Have a good Seder. :)

Judaism doesn't have a consensus on this --
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Also, I think my post would be really incomplete if I didn't add on that Judaism doesn't focus on the afterlife, it's emphasis is about how to live and make things better in this life.

(I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family and am a Reconstructionist Jew now.)

Have a good Seder everyone. :)


P.S.
Originally posted by jmercer
Jesus was Jewish, and you have to understand what Judaic holocausts were all about - they were sacrifices for forgiveness from God. (Much like other religions had sacrifices to placate their deities.) The better the sacrifice, the more favor you found with God.

I went to an Orthodox Jewish high school and that summary didn't quit agree with the info I recall being indoctrinated with at the time. ;) It was always drilled into me that Judaism is and was an action oriented religion (both before the destruction of the temple (when there were sacrifices) and after the destruction of the temple (when the sacrifices stopped) -- what mattered most is what you do 24/7 -- and that daily actions and how one treated other people were more important than sacrifices then and prayers now.

IIRC what I was told in high school, at the time I think the holidays were an occasion to unify the country in the days before mass communication (everyone who could went to the capital city then). The sacrifices made at the temple were a large part of how the priests were supported. I was left with the impression that sacrifices for the Hebrews at the time was sort of like our opinion about presents now -- it was the thought that counted.

But {Shrug} I was born almost deaf and my hearing aids weren't worth two cents at the time. I hardly heard anything that any of my teachers said --- and the little bit I did hear was often misheard so.... obviously my recollection could be inaccurate.

Edited because I can't write today.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mephisto
Now, if we choose to believe the Biblical story of creation, AND buy the idea that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, then how did Adam and Eve possibly have the freedom to choose? Compatiblism.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Gulliamo
That, and Jews do not believe in hell.

There is a Jewish hell, but I don't know if they all believe in it. My guess would be it's only the Orthodox and Conservative sects.

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by Shera
(I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family and am a Reconstructionist Jew now.)[/i] Reconstructionist?

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by c4ts
There is a Jewish hell, but I don't know if they all believe in it. My guess would be it's only the Orthodox and Conservative sects. Even the Orthodox that I know do not believe in a "Christian Hell." Meaning a Hell repleat with Satan, fire and brimstone. At best they believe that they cease to exist (sorta like an atheist) or are tortured by their absence from G_d.

Of course this is anecdotal...

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by Gulliamo
Reconstructionist?
One of the 4 branches of Judaism. Here's the best
overview (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Modern/ModernReligionCulture/MoreEmergence/Reconstructionism.htm) I saw that came up under Google. [/subjective opinion]

[jimmygun]

I had this buddy while I was a teenager and his name was Mike the Mooch. He was born to bum.

[Jas]

Originally posted by Mephisto

What I'm pondering is the validity behind the Christian claim that we have free will. I'm centering my thoughts around the story of Adam and Eve.

Now, if we choose to believe the Biblical story of creation, AND buy the idea that God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, then how did Adam and Eve possibly have the freedom to choose?


When thinking about the problem of free will, I always think of the Exodus story. The pharoah feels that enough is enough, is about to let the Hebrews free, and then God 'hardens his heart', on more than one occasion. I've never been sure as to how that fits into the entire 'free will' deal.

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by Jas
When thinking about the problem of free will, I always think of the Exodus story. The pharoah feels that enough is enough, is about to let the Hebrews free, and then God 'hardens his heart', on more than one occasion. I've never been sure as to how that fits into the entire 'free will' deal.
Yes! That was one of the first bible stories that made me question the party line…

FWIW, at this point my personal opinion about the bible is that for many cultures it was our starting point in figuring out how to be moral, fair, and kind. But it was just our starting point. If we actually lived under those rules now -- literally -- I think most of us would be completely miserable. The reason being that I think many society's codes are now more fair to more people compared to what is in the bibles (both OT and NT).

I compare it to science. Our scientific method and understanding has progressed greatly compared to thousands of years ago when people believed in alchemy and Hippocrate's humours.

No matter what the subject, humanity has progressed tremendously over the past couple of millenniums. That includes areas covered by the bible: ethics, balancing the individual's interest's against the group's interest, sharing resources and power on a community level and even within families. We've come along way, thank goodness!

[uruk]

According to the logic, God decided that it was impossible for mankind to find the perfect and unblemished (by sin) sacrifice, so He came down, was incarnated, and offered himself up as the perfect sacrifice. The amount of suffering and time involved wasn't the issue - it was the perfection of the sacrifice.
It seems odd that god would offer himself up as a sacrifice to himself. Why go through all that trouble? Just wipe the slate clean and with a great booming voice from abouve announce that bygones are bygones and that there's general admission to the party on the roof?

[Ossai]

Richard G
And he also knew he would have to die to reconcile them to himself. His love was so great, he made them anyway. Imagine that, you missed the point. There didn’t have to be a division at all.

toddjh
I always thought the Jesus myth would play better if he went to hell permanently as part of the sacrifice. Just imagine how much more powerful the guilt trip could be! As you just pointed out, there was no sacrifice. God/Jesus didn’t give up anything. A few hours of torture (not even the 3 days Christians say were prophesized) and then a quick side and home.


jmercer
The amount of suffering and time involved wasn't the issue - it was the perfection of the sacrifice. Oh, just though of another take on this.
God comes to earth to become the perfect sacrifice.

So in order to be reconciled with god one must give up (sacrifice) god – not focus on the final reward but live this life fully.
Those claiming a personal god (i.e. Christians), haven’t actually made the sacrifice yet and are condemned. Oddly enough the majority of people granted access to heaven are atheists and agnostics.

Ossai

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Shera
Judaism doesn't have a consensus on this --
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Also, I think my post would be really incomplete if I didn't add on that Judaism doesn't focus on the afterlife, it's emphasis is about how to live and make things better in this life.

(I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family and am a Reconstructionist Jew now.)

Have a good Seder everyone. :)


P.S.


I went to an Orthodox Jewish high school and that summary didn't quit agree with the info I recall being indoctrinated with at the time. ;) It was always drilled into me that Judaism is and was an action oriented religion (both before the destruction of the temple (when there were sacrifices) and after the destruction of the temple (when the sacrifices stopped) -- what mattered most is what you do 24/7 -- and that daily actions and how one treated other people were more important than sacrifices then and prayers now.

IIRC what I was told in high school, at the time I think the holidays were an occasion to unify the country in the days before mass communication (everyone who could went to the capital city then). The sacrifices made at the temple were a large part of how the priests were supported. I was left with the impression that sacrifices for the Hebrews at the time was sort of like our opinion about presents now -- it was the thought that counted.

But {Shrug} I was born almost deaf and my hearing aids weren't worth two cents at the time. I hardly heard anything that any of my teachers said --- and the little bit I did hear was often misheard so.... obviously my recollection could be inaccurate.

Edited because I can't write today.

Good post, Shera - and I agree, Hell is a matter of dispute within Judaism, which is why I made my original comment.

Regarding current Judaic teachings, they (like Christian teachings) have changed over the years. Some of the stories in the Talmud and related texts pretty clearly show Holocausts were done to appease God, and it was the intention that counted... but often, that intention was measured by the degree of value the individual assigned to the Holocaust. Sacrificing a bull or a sheep meant a heckuva lot more in those days that it would to us today. (The thought of sacrificing ones brand-new car might put that in perspective. ;))

Nowadays, though, you're right - people are taught that it's how they conduct themselves daily that matters. A concept I wholly and fully endorse, I might add. :)

[jmercer]

Originally posted by uruk
It seems odd that god would offer himself up as a sacrifice to himself. Why go through all that trouble? Just wipe the slate clean and with a great booming voice from abouve announce that bygones are bygones and that there's general admission to the party on the roof?

Heh... good point. Union rules, maybe? ;)

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Ossai


[ jmercer
Oh, just though of another take on this.
God comes to earth to become the perfect sacrifice.

So in order to be reconciled with god one must give up (sacrifice) god – not focus on the final reward but live this life fully.
Those claiming a personal god (i.e. Christians), haven’t actually made the sacrifice yet and are condemned. Oddly enough the majority of people granted access to heaven are atheists and agnostics.

Ossai

Interesting interpretation. Wrong, but interesting. :)

The sacrifice - according to the N.T. - was done by God himself, and only needed to be done for all mankind once, for all sins, past, present and future. So all you need to do to get your ticket to ride is to believe that:

1) Christ was the son of God
2) Christ died to release you from your sins
3) Christ was resurrected on the third day after his death

That's it - everything else that's been layered on top afterwards is just window-dressing by power-hungry types. :D

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by jmercer
Good post, Shera - and I agree, Hell is a matter of dispute within Judaism, which is why I made my original comment.

Regarding current Judaic teachings, they (like Christian teachings) have changed over the years. Some of the stories in the Talmud and related texts pretty clearly show Holocausts were done to appease God, and it was the intention that counted... but often, that intention was measured by the degree of value the individual assigned to the Holocaust. Sacrificing a bull or a sheep meant a heckuva lot more in those days that it would to us today. (The thought of sacrificing ones brand-new car might put that in perspective. ;))

Nowadays, though, you're right - people are taught that it's how they conduct themselves daily that matters. A concept I wholly and fully endorse, I might add. :)
Hi Jmercer

I thought your posts were good also. :)

They reminded me what some of my Catholic friends had told me a long time ago -- that some parts of Jewish history, as understood through the perspective of Catholic history, is taught in Catholic parochial schools. Sounds like you went to one and it also sounds like you may have spent more time learning about the sacrifices that took place back during the days of the Temple then I did!

If so, this doesn't surprise me. From what I can gather from your posts it sounds like your teachers were teaching this subject as part of the background knowledge necessary to understand the Christian teachings on why JC was crucified -- as a sacrifice.

From my Jewish high school teachers' point of view sacrifices were no longer relevant and had not been for almost 2000 years. They treated the subject matter accordingly and spent very little time on it. The only other things I would add to my post from April 19 on the subject is that my teachers also taught:
* Sacrifices were rationalized as something that God had indulgently allowed a primitive people to continue because they were familiar with it from before receiving the Torah (OT) and it was a very common practice in those days. (I realize that this may be a weak rationale and perhaps not logical or believable, but I'm just presenting what I was taught.)
* Prayer was an acceptable substitute for sacrifices. For example, if the Hebrews could not travel to Jerusalem for the festivals to make their sacrifices it was not a sin. (Sacrifices could only be made at dedicated places -- not just anywhere.) Eventually prayer completely replaced sacrifices.
* There were different types of sacrifices -- not just livestock -- for example, some could be wine or grains.

Another factor is that I'm old enough that my high school did not teach the girls Jewish religious law directly from the Talmud but from some other religious literature. (Hebrew classes were separated by gender, the secular classes weren't -- I think now most Orthodox Jewish high schools do teach their female students the Talmud.). The boys were taught Talmud. And I would bet that they may have learned a little more about sacrifices in their Talmud classes because although it was no longer relevant, it was it was a sizable chunk of the Talmud. (The Talmud has 6 books and about a third of one book deals with sacrifices).

You did get my curiosity going on this subject though, so I found a web page (http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm) on sacrifices from one of the sources I regard as credible in relaying the Jewish point of view on Judaism. Personally I think the web page is a little boring -- but if one plods through it perhaps you will agree with me that Jewish teachings about what sacrifices were required and what it meant back than differs at least a little from the Christian teachings (assuming I understood your posts on this correctly). The religions' teachings after all do differ in some areas, otherwise they would not have branched off -- so it makes sense that this will happen sometimes.

Personally, I'm just glad that sacrifices are no longer an active practice in anyone's religion. :)

Edited to fix link.

[Steven Howard]

Originally posted by Shera
Personally, I'm just glad that sacrifices are no longer an active practice in anyone's religion. :)



Really? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/santeri.htm)

Or was that a sarcasm smilie?

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by Steven Howard
Really? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/santeri.htm)

Or was that a sarcasm smilie? The smile of ignorance... :o

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Shera Personally, I'm just glad that sacrifices are no longer an active practice in anyone's religion. :)


Don't forget Santeria, the apparently comfortable mix of Catholicism and Voodoo. Don't they offer sacrifices of chickens or roosters? This is probably why Santeria never caught on in the American southwest, it's not pleasing to the Gods to make soup out of their sacrifice! :p

Mephisto

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Jas
When thinking about the problem of free will, I always think of the Exodus story. The pharoah feels that enough is enough, is about to let the Hebrews free, and then God 'hardens his heart', on more than one occasion. I've never been sure as to how that fits into the entire 'free will' deal.

I've often thought of this regarding the concept of free will as taught by the Bible. I was actually going to accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour. I was ready to become more judgemental, and was prepared to hate homosexuals, Muslims, inter-racial couples, abortionists, stem-cell researchers and Democrats, but I guess God hardened my heart. :D

Mephisto

[Mephisto]

I just wanted to thank you for re-posting your string on this subject in here (near the beginning of this string).

Our thoughts and ideas are certainly similar, but your examples and statements are far more eloquent.

Thanks again for bothering to breathe some life into this string.

:)

Mephisto

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by Mephisto
Don't forget Santeria, ... Don't they offer sacrifices of chickens or roosters?
I did, but Steven Howard linked to a web site about them.

[AWPrime]

Originally posted by jmercer
So all you need to do to get your ticket to ride is to believe that:

1) Christ was the son of God
2) Christ died to release you from your sins
3) Christ was resurrected on the third day after his death


It would be more logical that this was excuse of early christians that were shocked that their cult-leader could die.