Does the instinctive urge to fight death necessarily mean...

[INRM]

... that there is no afterlife?

Or is it just another reason?

-INRM
P.S. Please answer objectively, not what you want to be, but what is.

[TragicMonkey]

First, can you prove that there is an instinctive urge "to fight death"?

[INRM]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
First, can you prove that there is an instinctive urge "to fight death"?

I cannot.

However I did have a rather bizarre problem in May 2004. I was in the hospital, and I thought I was going to die. I remember being so scared. I thought I would die. Although I'm not entirely sure if it was flitting out of existance, dying, or something else. Fear of unknown. Not sure.

First, I think I should start asking-- anyone came close to death and felt fear as they did?

-INRM

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by INRM
I cannot.

However I did have a rather bizarre problem in May 2004. I was in the hospital, and I thought I was going to die. I remember being so scared. I thought I would die. Although I'm not entirely sure if it was flitting out of existance, dying, or something else. Fear of unknown. Not sure.

First, I think I should start asking-- anyone came close to death and felt fear as they did?

-INRM

On three occasions when I came rather close to death, I felt fear. All three of those were accident-type situations, sudden and surprising. On a different occasion, one that was a medical one and I came much, much closer to dying, I felt no fear at all but instead rather peaceful. It felt like falling into the best sleep ever. Of course it was because my brain was beginning to shut down, which naturally affects one's emotions a bit.

I think the emotions might have more to do with adrenaline and the other physical responses the body unleashes when the brain detects a crisis. Fear, I guess, is supposed to motivate us to get away from danger. Fear of death, though...I wonder if that actually requires some higher-level conscious thought. Somebody, I forget who, said what separates us from the animals is that we are aware of our mortality and can think about it, while animals just react to situations and are surprised when they suddenly drop dead, not having anticipated such an event. Although who can say for sure? Maybe as I type this some howler monkey is sitting bolt upright in his tree, thinking "Holy crap! One day, I'll be dead!"

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
First, can you prove that there is an instinctive urge "to fight death"?
Try to imagine how most people react when someone picks them up and tries to throw them off a building.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Try to imagine how most people react when someone picks them up and tries to throw them off a building.

I don't know how most people would react. I wouldn't assume they'd all react the same way. Some would probably be too shocked to comprehend it and do nothing at all.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I don't know how most people would react. I wouldn't assume they'd all react the same way. Some would probably be too shocked to comprehend it and do nothing at all.


Viktor Frankl offers some interesting ideas on the concept that all people do not resist death in the same manner.

[FortuneHunter]

Didn't Freud go into this concept on instinct? Making death as a physical factor affecting our mental system. Therefore, it becomes a mental representation of death being symbolic and imaginary?

[INRM]

Originally posted by FortuneHunter
Didn't Freud go into this concept on instinct? Making death as a physical factor affecting our mental system. Therefore, it becomes a mental representation of death being symbolic and imaginary?

Not sure. Never really understood Freud too well. Not sure if it's just me or because he smoked enough coke to kill a pack of wild animals

-INRM

[Gulliamo]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Viktor Frankl offers some interesting ideas on the concept that all people do not resist death in the same manner. Do you have any links or quotes about this?

[crimresearch]

'Man's Search for Meaning' by Frankl includes his experiences in WWII concentration camps, and his assessment that some prisoners just 'turned off' their will to live..(my paraphrase of his words, I have the book, haven't read it in a while).

"Throughout the novel, Dr. Frankl discusses scenarios in which fellow prisoners were beaten down physically and emotionally to no avail, and subsequently were able to survive through clinging onto one remaining thing: that they had found meaning in their lives.
Others who would give up and die, like a flower withers in the winter, could not find this meaning. The point stressed throughout is that without finding any meaning to their lives, the
prisoners would almost inevitably die."
http://homepages.which.net/~michael.millett/index-page57.html




http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671023373/qid=1114400351/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-4960443-3887135?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[rppa]

Originally posted by Yahweh
Try to imagine how most people react when someone picks them up and tries to throw them off a building.

I guess I'd react pretty violently up till the moment I was actually thrown. I'm not sure if I'd "fight death" once it became inevitable.

I base this on an experience in a car accident (I ended up walking away from it), but for several long seconds I was convinced that I had only a couple of seconds to live. I didn't fight it, I just said to myself "well, this is it then" and never did anything with the steering wheel or brake as far as I know.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by INRM
... that there is no afterlife?

Or is it just another reason?

-INRM
P.S. Please answer objectively, not what you want to be, but what is. Ever had a bad dream where something was trying to destroy you? Hideous things exist in both worlds. In fact this is what gives rise to clairvoyance and, why dreams tend to reflect -- in a deep seated psychological way -- what happens to us during the day.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by INRM
Not sure. Never really understood Freud too well. Not sure if it's just me or because he smoked enough coke to kill a pack of wild animals

-INRM

Frued would have insufflated (snorted), chewed the leaves or put the powder in the gums (like snuff), or drunk it in an extract or tincture.

Freebasing/crack is a fairly recent invention.

(The more you know....)

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Of course it was because my brain was beginning to shut down, which naturally affects one's emotions a bit.

Whoa! Did your brain survive?


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I crack me up. I'll be here all week.

[Batman Jr.]

Originally posted by INRM
... that there is no afterlife?

Or is it just another reason?

-INRM
P.S. Please answer objectively, not what you want to be, but what is.
No, it just means that natural selection favors those that improve their chances of survival by trying to avoid death. You have to realize that there are instincts to believe and do a lot of weird things, but they have no direct relevance in obtaining scientific verities save in the capacity that they do so to help us to better understand Darwinism.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Whoa! Did your brain survive?


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I crack me up. I'll be here all week.

Yeah, death is funny. I was seventeen at the time. It kind of upset my parents a bit to nearly lose their kid.

And I said "beginning to". I was entering what would have been the initial coma-before-death. Obviously, that process was interrupted and I recovered to fling poo from trees with the other monkeys.

[Gulliamo]

wrong thread: removed

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Yeah, death is funny. I was seventeen at the time. It kind of upset my parents a bit to nearly lose their kid.

And I said "beginning to". I was entering what would have been the initial coma-before-death. Obviously, that process was interrupted and I recovered to fling poo from trees with the other monkeys.

So I make a silly joke and manage to find the ONE thing that Tragic Monkey takes seriously? Yikes.

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by INRM
... that there is no afterlife?

Or is it just another reason?

-INRM
P.S. Please answer objectively, not what you want to be, but what is.

an ant will fight or flight to not die.

[seayakin]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I think the emotions might have more to do with adrenaline and the other physical responses the body unleashes when the brain detects a crisis. Fear, I guess, is supposed to motivate us to get away from danger. Fear of death, though...I wonder if that actually requires some higher-level conscious thought. Somebody, I forget who, said what separates us from the animals is that we are aware of our mortality and can think about it, while animals just react to situations and are surprised when they suddenly drop dead, not having anticipated such an event. Although who can say for sure? Maybe as I type this some howler monkey is sitting bolt upright in his tree, thinking "Holy crap! One day, I'll be dead!"

This points out that we are really talkinga about two forms of response.


Fight or Flight response which is more instinctual
Cognitive awareness of eventual death


The fight or flight response is real. I'm not sure if everyone has a fear caused by their awareness that they will eventually die. We can probably all cite individuals they are aware of who died with out fear.

In any case, I plan to live forever or die trying.;)

[Ralph]

What would most of us do if we hit the lottery for 200 million or so?

Would we get that check cashed & into our bank account ASAP
or would we just kind of cash it when we got around to it?

How would we feel if someone suggested we wait around a bit before cashing it---a few months or even years??

I'm sure 99% would answer this the same way------but as cool as having 200 million would be---it's still only money. Plenty of unhappy rich people out there.

There is something a thousand times better though--------heaven.


As anxious as most of us would be to get mere money---you'd think people'd be lined up to get a taste of something that's so much better.


Even in cultures where suicide is rewarded with cash & hero status---it's surprising how few volunteers there are to take the short road to paradise...

Of course Christians have that pesky suicide taboo thing but if I thought I could have something 1000 times better than $200 million by the end of the week............I'd be standing on a busy streetcorner waiting for some drunk to stumble in front of an oncoming bus---who needs to be heroically pushed out of the way....

Could it be a lack of faith that there's a heaven----or maybe just a feeling that there's a heaven.....but I might NOT be going there??

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Ralph
What would most of us do if we hit the lottery for 200 million or so?

Would we get that check cashed & into our bank account ASAP
or would we just kind of cash it when we got around to it?

How would we feel if someone suggested we wait around a bit before cashing it---a few months or even years??

I'm sure 99% would answer this the same way------but as cool as having 200 million would be---it's still only money. Plenty of unhappy rich people out there.

There is something a thousand times better though--------heaven.


As anxious as most of us would be to get mere money---you'd think people'd be lined up to get a taste of something that's so much better.


Even in cultures where suicide is rewarded with cash & hero status---it's surprising how few volunteers there are to take the short road to paradise...

Of course Christians have that pesky suicide taboo thing but if I thought I could have something 1000 times better than $200 million by the end of the week............I'd be standing on a busy streetcorner waiting for some drunk to stumble in front of an oncoming bus---who needs to be heroically pushed out of the way....

Could it be a lack of faith that there's a heaven----or maybe just a feeling that there's a heaven.....but I might NOT be going there??

Greetings Ralph


First allow me to say I respect what you believe and only offer my thoughts.

What would most of us do if we hit the lottery for 200 million or so?

We thought about this last week when we bought a lottery ticket for the 205 million. All our family would get a trust; parents would have bills paid off. We would pay off our bigger bills, house etc and buy the 2nd home we want in Cape Cod. Money would be set aside to live on but we would both still do as we do as to work.

Foundations would be set up including 1-2 make a wish people every year would have their wish paid for. A great share, most of the money would be used to help others.

Would we get that check cashed & into our bank account ASAP or would we just kind of cash it when we got around to it?

Not really a logical question as they do not just hand you a check for the funds and if they did no one just holds on to a million ( after tax) check.

How would we feel if someone suggested we wait around a bit before cashing it---a few months or even years??

Again not logical, as to years the check has a date where it is no longer valid.

I'm sure 99% would answer this the same way------but as cool as having 200 million would be---it's still only money. Plenty of unhappy rich people out there.

SO very true.

There is something a thousand times better though--------heaven.

I respect you believe that and do not say you are wrong, such is an unknown, a belief. What I do know is to be giving with this $$$ and your time and compassion, to help others to see joy and an easing of suffering is a real and tangible “heaven�.

We are in the here and now this is what matters.


As anxious as most of us would be to get mere money---you'd think people'd be lined up to get a taste of something that's so much better.

What you offer is a belief, a hope, what I offer is real, do you wish to see heaven? Give one who has no hope, hope, one who has no home, a home, one who has no food, food, one who knows no love, love.

Even in cultures where suicide is rewarded with cash & hero status---it's surprising how few volunteers there are to take the short road to paradise...

And in beliefs like the Christian belief when you believe heaven is so much better most still fight so hard not to give up and die, most Christians that are sure there is a God and a heaven fear death so much.

Of course Christians have that pesky suicide taboo thing but if I thought I could have something 1000 times better than $200 million by the end of the week............I'd be standing on a busy streetcorner waiting for some drunk to stumble in front of an oncoming bus---who needs to be heroically pushed out of the way....

Sad, first I would not judge him as “some drunk� but I would save him out of love for him not seeking to use him to get what I want. I would place his needs first reward or none.

For just what you have said is what it would be a materialist atheist who gives up his life to save another who is most moral.

Could it be a lack of faith that there's a heaven----or maybe just a feeling that there's a heaven.....but I might NOT be going there??

Only you know your mind.

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
Greetings Ralph


First allow me to say I respect what you believe and only offer my thoughts.



We thought about this last week when we bought a lottery ticket for the 205 million. All our family would get a trust; parents would have bills paid off. We would pay off our bigger bills, house etc and buy the 2nd home we want in Cape Cod. Money would be set aside to live on but we would both still do as we do as to work.

Foundations would be set up including 1-2 make a wish people every year would have their wish paid for. A great share, most of the money would be used to help others.



Not really a logical question as they do not just hand you a check for the funds and if they did no one just holds on to a million ( after tax) check.



Again not logical, as to years the check has a date where it is no longer valid.



SO very true.



I respect you believe that and do not say you are wrong, such is an unknown, a belief. What I do know is to be giving with this $$$ and your time and compassion, to help others to see joy and an easing of suffering is a real and tangible “heaven�.

We are in the here and now this is what matters.




What you offer is a belief, a hope, what I offer is real, do you wish to see heaven? Give one who has no hope, hope, one who has no home, a home, one who has no food, food, one who knows no love, love.



And in beliefs like the Christian belief when you believe heaven is so much better most still fight so hard not to give up and die, most Christians that are sure there is a God and a heaven fear death so much.



Sad, first I would not judge him as “some drunk� but I would save him out of love for him not seeking to use him to get what I want. I would place his needs first reward or none.

For just what you have said is what it would be a materialist atheist who gives up his life to save another who is most moral.



Only you know your mind.

Hi Panshiri............

You are taking me way too seriously.

Just using a little humor to suggest that some individuals faith might not be as unshakable as they claim it is................Ralph...

[Pahansiri]

Originally posted by Ralph
Hi Panshiri............

You are taking me way too seriously.

Just using a little humor to suggest that some individuals faith might not be as unshakable as they claim it is................Ralph...

hello:( sorry....lol I am not the sharpest knife you know.:( lol

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Pahansiri
hello:( sorry....lol I am not the sharpest knife you know.:( lol


Somebody on this board--I can't remember who---has a sig line that's a quote by Kurt Vonnegut.

It's something like "we are here on earth to fart around---don't let anyone tell you anything different".


That quote describes my attitude toward life about as accurately as anything else does.