Would you fight for your country?

[Geisha]

1) Would you, fight for your country?

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

[jayrev]

1) Would you, fight for your country?

Yes, I would if I had to. I served in the military but I didn't do any fighting.

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?

Yes, but threatened can mean many things. My country has fought wars over ideology in times when there was no direct physical threat against us. Were we threatened? It's arguable. Depends on you political views I guess.

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?

Yes.

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

I think it may be necessary sometimes. In the US we currently have an all volunteer military, but that hasn't always been the case. I think a volunteer military should be used except in extreme curcumstances.

5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?

I am proud of my country.

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

I don't have a problem with helping another country defend itself from an agressor. I do have a problem with forcing our help on another country that doesn't want it.

[mindless]

I would fight if it where a cause I belive in and there was no alternative.

but if you are refering to would I go and fight this upcoming war with Iraq, then i'd have to say no.

----
I am proud of my country.
----


While that may seem like a good thing, that is the problem, because everyone is equally proud of their country.

So don't cross their line.

[Smalso]

Were those who fought--and died--in Viet Nam fighting for their country?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Aswang
1) Would you, fight for your country?

Absolutely and without hesitation, using all tools, training and resources at my disposal, and without mercy.

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?

No, I would only need to be ordered to by planning at the Pentagon. The politics of right and wrong wouldn't matter. Soldiers are not politicians. We are an extention of politics. When the talking is done, we act.

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?

Absolutely. Already have.

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

Absolutely not. War is a function of the higher politic. All citizens have the duty to protect the sovereign at risk of their own life when the sovereign is threatened. Without the sovereign, there is no country. Men will fight for their country because men live by the motto "Don't Tread On Me". Without a country men have no masculine identity. Any means necesssary can be used to defend the country guarded by men.

5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?

I am very proud of my country. I have killed enemy soldiers on battlefields for my country and would do so again without hesitation.

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

When I was told I was very excited to be going off to defend the United States. I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited. We enjoyed defending our country from the perversion.

Any other questions?

JK

[Tmy]

I would fight, but I dont think I'd volunteer.

Not because I disagree with the Iraqi issue, BUT because I think my skills our more valuable back home than over in the mid east.

There are other ways to help your country than joining the military. I think Im helping my country now. I work a lower paying but socially benifical job. It may not be as romantic as being a cop or firefighter but at the end of the week I believe my work helped make my city a better place.

[Geisha]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Originally posted by Aswang
1) Would you, fight for your country?

Absolutely and without hesitation, using all tools, training and resources at my disposal, and without mercy.
Honorable

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?

No, I would only need to be ordered to by planning at the Pentagon. The politics of right and wrong wouldn't matter. Soldiers are not politicians. We are an extension of politics. When the talking is done, we act.
Politic cause wars needlessly. Your blood is spilled, but they, sit at home safe and sound. How can you know that fighting is best option and not just result of bad mood Politician?

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?

Absolutely. Already have.
Why, to go Iraq or other?

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

Absolutely not. War is a function of the higher politic. All citizens have the duty to protect the sovereign at risk of their own life when the sovereign is threatened. Without the sovereign, there is no country. Men will fight for their country because men live by the motto "Don't Tread On Me". Without a country men have no masculine identity. Any means necessary can be used to defend the country guarded by men.
Country not make man masculine, what about women then they not have country?
Women can fight equally well as men if not better in some ways.

5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?

I am very proud of my country. I have killed enemy soldiers on battlefields for my country and would do so again without hesitation.
Enemy only enemy, bcoz some Politician said so, they lie. You believe all they say?

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

When I was told I was very excited to be going off to defend the United States. I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited. We enjoyed defending our country from the perversion. You like to kill?
What perversion?
You kill innocent people to, don't you have conscience?

Any other questions?JK

Why do bidding of politician, when it not effect you directly, have you seen, real proof of direct threat, or just rely on Politicans word of mouth?

[Geisha]

Originally posted by Smalso
Were those who fought--and died--in Viet Nam fighting for their country? I don't know were they?
Many innocent lives was taken both sides.
It bad war like Nuclear bomb dropping should not have happen.
Politicians again.:mad:

[Smalso]

I think we were just obeying orders.

Not surprising that some need to respond to this question by spraying testosterone all over the page, and flexing the 'look-what-a-man-I-am" muscles... of the typing fingers, no less...

Yah, if the USA were invaded, I'd pick up a gun and fight to defend it. Gotta defend your home after all...

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Tmy
I would fight, but I dont think I'd volunteer.


I agree with you there. I do not think I would volunteer right now either but would not hesitate to fight if called. On the other hand, I could imagine circumstances where I would volunteer. However, that is probably no longer an option as I am a little old to enlist now.

As for the other questions, I certainly am proud of my country, I do not think all wars are wrong (though some are), and we fight wars where we need to. Sometimes that that can be a long way from home, especially when defending an ally.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight:
When I was told I was very excited to be going off to defend the United States. I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited. We enjoyed defending our country from the perversion.

Is it just me or is there a distinct homo-erotic overtone to this passage?

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Originally posted by Jedi Knight:


Is it just me or is there a distinct homo-erotic overtone to this passage?

I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited.I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited.I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited perversion perversion perversion excited men all the excited men perversion I was excited.


Nope. Just you! :D

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Aswang
Honorable

Duty, honor, sacrifice.

Politic cause wars needlessly. Your blood is spilled, but they, sit at home safe and sound. How can you know that fighting is best option and not just result of bad mood Politician?

My local "politican" retired from the army and later retired after serving for over two decades with the CIA. That is why I voted for him. Sure, there are many politicians that have never served in war but no "single" politician matters in the United States, a condition that most other countries are not able to duplicate because they are run by a handful of marginal tyrants.

Also, all politics are war.

Why, to go Iraq or other?

Why shouldn't we? Saddam Hussein hasn't complied with the surrender treaty he agreed to after we destroyed his army in 1991 due to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Iraqi terrorist operatives have weapons of mass destruction at their disposal now because of the Saddam agenda to annihilate the United States. You think we should sit back and let US cities be destroyed by these weapons? No, I believe it is time to take the war to Iraq where it belongs.

Country not make man masculine, what about women then they not have country? Women can fight equally well as men if not better in some ways.

That's nice comedy, a feminist fantasy. Women are terrible infantry soldiers and can be killed with ease on the battlefield. The battlefield doesn't pay attention to women's equality agendas. The battlefield has its own standards. Those standards are overtly dangerous for women because women can be easily hunted on the battlefield. That is why women do not serve in infantry units on the front lines. If women did serve in infantry units on the front lines, the male enemy soldiers would kill every single last one of them without breaking a sweat.

Enemy only enemy, bcoz some Politician said so, they lie. You believe all they say?

I have my own sources of information. I don't need to listen to politicans.

You like to kill? What perversion? You kill innocent people to, don't you have conscience?

When your country is constantly being slapped across the face, eventually something has to be done to stop the slapping. The US military is very proficient at stopping the slapping. It has nothing to do with "enjoying" the hunt, but the glorious victories on the battlefields to which history is made as the forces of freedom destroy perversion wherever it is encountered globally.

My conscience rests solely with the wellbeing of my country. Nothing else matters.

Why do bidding of politician, when it not effect you directly, have you seen, real proof of direct threat, or just rely on Politicans word of mouth?

Oh, so you are saying that there is no evidence about Iraq and the weapons of mass destruction programs in that country? Stay tuned pacifist, because next week a lot of leftists are going to have egg on their faces.

By the way, are you a communist?

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Aswang
I don't know were they?
Many innocent lives was taken both sides.
It bad war like Nuclear bomb dropping should not have happen.
Politicians again.:mad:

We didn't want to drop the bomb, but the Japanese wouldn't surrender. The United States wasn't about to lose a million men securing the island of Japan.

If Japan didn't want to be nuked, why did they demand to be?

JK

[Troll]

I would indeed, and have.

So do you have any other questions of a more specific nature or is that it?

[Reginald]

Oh dear, I always thought that when you joined the military, you joined up knowing that at some point you may have to fight.

Ok you could argue that when you joined Bush or Blair were not in charge, and that you felt it was a safe bet (bit of high quality specialised training etc). However I would think this would rank as nieve.

It has to be said, that no matter how silly or non rational the reason, the military are there to fight (and alas die) in order to back up the politics of their country.

The whole system would fall apart if you had to hold a ballot of opinion each time a platoon were ordered to capture Hill X or Town Y.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
That's nice comedy, a feminist fantasy. Women are terrible infantry soldiers and can be killed with ease on the battlefield. The battlefield doesn't pay attention to women's equality agendas. The battlefield has its own standards. Those standards are overtly dangerous for women because women can be easily hunted on the battlefield. That is why women do not serve in infantry units on the front lines. If women did serve in infantry units on the front lines, the male enemy soldiers would kill every single last one of them without breaking a sweat.


I hate to argue with you because we are generally on the same side here, but I think it needs to be said that while women usually do make pretty lousy infantry, infantry is not all there is to a modern army. Women can and do serve in other roles even in combat. In fact I have read that Army research showed that women could actually make better snipers. Unfortunately I don't have the source for this at the moment. My point is that just because they do not make as good infantry does not mean that women could not or should not serve in the military. Also, some women (a minority) are physically competent to serve in the infantry, just not nearly as many as men.

However, I agree 100% that the battlefield does not care about equality and that’s why I think the requirements for any particular job in the military should be the same for either gender. This is not currently the case, unfortunately. But IMHO if a given women is up to the job, why not let her do it. Just make sure she is as competent to do it as her male colleagues.

[Saturn]

Originally posted by Aswang
1) Would you, fight for your country?

It depends.


2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?


If my country was threatened with invasion, or threatened with the loss of basic freedoms.


3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?


Only as provided in my answer to number 2.


4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?


There are probably exceptions, but I would have to say yes.


5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?


Mildly proud, although less and less lately. The day we invade Iraq, unless there's a whole lot more evidence of impending danger from them, I would become ashamed of my country.


6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

There are times when I think military action is appropriate to liberate another country that was invaded. However, beginning at the time of the Kosovo conflict, I decided that we should never use military action against another country to intervene in their purely domestic matters, even if the government is killing their own civilians. I've found no reason to think that I'm wrong about that.

[sorgoth]

1) Would you, fight for your country?

Only for a VERY, VERY good cause. (Invasion, genocide...or something that would pretty much destroy my freedoms.)

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?

Yes.

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?

Depends how serious it is.

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

Yes. Being punished for NOT killing just isn't right, in my eyes.

5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?

I'm pretty proud of Canada, more lately, actually, as I've seen some decisions that I agree with finally take effect.

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

I think "Damn, I'm happy I live in Canada, and I don't HAVE to do this ****."

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Originally posted by Aswang
1) Would you, fight for your country?

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

Absolutely not. War is a function of the higher politic. All citizens have the duty to protect the sovereign at risk of their own life when the sovereign is threatened. Without the sovereign, there is no country. Men will fight for their country because men live by the motto "Don't Tread On Me". Without a country men have no masculine identity. Any means necesssary can be used to defend the country guarded by men.



if it was determined by the politicians that it was in fact the jews who were to blame for all the economic ills of the country, would you help to eliminate them?



5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?

I am very proud of my country. I have killed enemy soldiers on battlefields for my country and would do so again without hesitation.



was it about this time that they suggested maybe it was time for you to move on to a different career?

were the soldiers killed in accordance with the rules of engagement? what country were they from?

[RandFan]

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

JK
Absolutely not. War is a function of the higher politic. All citizens have the duty to protect the sovereign at risk of their own life when the sovereign is threatened. Without the sovereign, there is no country. Men will fight for their country because men live by the motto "Don't Tread On Me". Without a country men have no masculine identity. Any means necesssary can be used to defend the country guarded by men.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
if it was determined by the politicians that it was in fact the jews who were to blame for all the economic ills of the country, would you help to eliminate them? Heaven forbid that I should defend Jedi Knight but...

JK qualifies his statement by saying "when the sovereign is threatened?" He says nothing about genocide but only protecting the state. It would follow from his statement that any requisite would cease once the threat were over. Your question is a non-sequitur.

[RandFan]

Great post,

I like your avatar by the way, is that you?

Originally posted by Aswang
1) Would you, fight for your country?

Yes, though I would be willing to protest if I believed that the war was immoral. I did not thing that Viet Nam was Immoral but respected those who did.

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?

No, I would fight to protect the interests of American allies. The willingness to do so provides for our own security

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?

Yes.

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

I could only answer in the affirmative if the question were asked in a vacuum.

5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent? Very proud.

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

Since I have not been asked that I can't honestly answer. I suppose I would worry about myself and my family. It would force me to consider my priorities and to take stock of my life.

[Geisha]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


We didn't want to drop the bomb, but the Japanese wouldn't surrender. The United States wasn't about to lose a million men securing the island of Japan.

If Japan didn't want to be nuked, why did they demand to be?

JK How I should know. I not be made accountable for sins of those born before me or should I be judged by action of others before my birth.

Japanese spirit strong fight till death. Much stubbornness at times/

Women very able fight equally with men. Men see women as sex toys that how many get killed. Women far devious.

No not communist why would I be?

Does you hold me accountable for action of senseless forefathers of my birth country?

[JAR]

I would never fight for my country. I had a miserable experience in Boy Scouts as a kid and being in the military is a hundred times more miserable. If I was drafted I would commit suicide to escape service. I have total sympathy for the U.S. government's situation, but in my opinion is better to be dead than to be screamed at by a drill sergeant.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Aswang
How I should know. I not be made accountable for sins of those born before me or should I be judged by action of others before my birth.

Japanese spirit strong fight till death. Much stubbornness at times/

Women very able fight equally with men. Men see women as sex toys that how many get killed. Women far devious.

No not communist why would I be?

Does you hold me accountable for action of senseless forefathers of my birth country?

I don't think anyone here is trying to hold you to account for the actions of your ancestors, although there certainly are people out there who like to do that to others. But that is a topic for another thread. In this case I believe JK was basically saying (in a somewhat exaggerated fashion) that the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan can hardly be seen as unprovoked. IMHO his questions were rhetorical. You weren't being asked personally to explain the actions of the Japanese government almost 60 years ago.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
if it was determined by the politicians that it was in fact the jews who were to blame for all the economic ills of the country, would you help to eliminate them?

You are confused about who the "enemy" is. That is understandable since you are a leftist. The United States does not attack its allies. The Jews have been our allies for decades and the State of Israel is the most staunch ally that we have. Any enemy of Israel is an enemy of the United States.

was it about this time that they suggested maybe it was time for you to move on to a different career?

No, I finished my contract and moved to a better paying job. I already explained that to you before but you must have missed it.

were the soldiers killed in accordance with the rules of engagement? what country were they from?

We always used the rules of engagement. When enemy soldiers fired at us, we eliminated them with brilliant efficiency.

JK

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Is it just me or is there a distinct homo-erotic overtone to this passage?

Yes.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Aswang
How I should know. I not be made accountable for sins of those born before me or should I be judged by action of others before my birth.

Japanese spirit strong fight till death. Much stubbornness at times/

Women very able fight equally with men. Men see women as sex toys that how many get killed. Women far devious.

No not communist why would I be?

Does you hold me accountable for action of senseless forefathers of my birth country?

Well you sound like a communist. Communists breed resentment towards freedom and protecting the sovereign protects freedom. Since you seem to have a problem with that, I was just asking if you were a communist because you sounded like one.

The sovereign is the higher politic. Everyone tasked to defend the sovereign becomes a soldier to defend it, both standing armies and politicians. Without the sovereign, there is no country.

That is difficult at times for brainwashed leftist college students to understand, but if you go chat with your college professors in your political theory department at your university (if they are not communists which could be rare), they can explain the theory of the sovereign to you.

JK

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Thorin LungHammer


I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited.I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited.I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited perversion perversion perversion excited men all the excited men perversion I was excited.


Nope. Just you! :D
Paging Dr. Freud.:eek:

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by JAR
I would never fight for my country. I had a miserable experience in Boy Scouts as a kid and being in the military is a hundred times more miserable. If I was drafted I would commit suicide to escape service. I have total sympathy for the U.S. government's situation, but in my opinion is better to be dead than to be screamed at by a drill sergeant.

Basic training is easy and nothing to be afraid of.

JK

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by JAR
I would never fight for my country. I had a miserable experience in Boy Scouts as a kid and being in the military is a hundred times more miserable. If I was drafted I would commit suicide to escape service. I have total sympathy for the U.S. government's situation, but in my opinion is better to be dead than to be screamed at by a drill sergeant.

Me neither. I don't look good in green.

[Kimpatsu]

If a war such as WWII broke out, rather than shoot and kill people on the other side, I'd rather join the fire brigade or the medical corps and help save lives. I'd still be contributing to the war effort at the same time.

[Geisha]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Well you sound like a communist. Communists breed resentment toward freedom and protecting the sovereign protects freedom. Since you seem to have a problem with that, I was just asking if you were a communist because you sounded like one.

The sovereign is the higher politic. Everyone tasked to defend the sovereign becomes a soldier to defend it, both standing armies and politicians. Without the sovereign, there is no country.

That is difficult at times for brainwashed leftist college students to understand, but if you go chat with your college professors in your political theory department at your university (if they are not communists which could be rare), they can explain the theory of the sovereign to you.

JK

You get Mai all wrong Mai not communist and no sound like communist at all, that not nice label me as that, I no make you label on you.
I no have politics, I not learn about them yet to make uniformed choice. when I learn about all then I make choice or no choice.

I no at college or school, I not ready to go yet only just learned to R, W, A, and speak. I read better than the others though, I like reading not understand much of some words, but I manage.

Sovereign do you mean King or Queen?

[Geisha]

Originally posted by Advocate


I don't think anyone here is trying to hold you to account for the actions of your ancestors, although there certainly are people out there who like to do that to others. But that is a topic for another thread. In this case I believe JK was basically saying (in a somewhat exaggerated fashion) that the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan can hardly be seen as unprovoked. IMHO his questions were rhetorical. You weren't being asked personally to explain the actions of the Japanese government almost 60 years ago. Thank you for explaining it, I no understand a lot of words and meaning meant in answers or questions yet, there many words for me to learn and to speak, I did keep count of words learned but I lost the count when I forgot to bring notebook to write in. Last entry was for 2500 words very small amount.

That good point you make, lot people do hold others accountable for action by fore fathers, that shame, is it saying
" child not pay for sin of father"

[subgenius]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer


Me neither. I don't look good in green.
I have a note from my mom saying I can't go to the war cause I got the sniffles.

[Kodiak]

War is human nature.

To get rid of the former, you must get rid of the latter...

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by Aswang
1) Would you, fight for your country?


If called, I would serve. However, I would make a very strong argument that my skills are best suited to serve in ways other than combat. I don't think you want a lot of weenies on the front line, but I do have skills that the DoD can utilize.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

That's nice comedy, a feminist fantasy. Women are terrible infantry soldiers and can be killed with ease on the battlefield. The battlefield doesn't pay attention to women's equality agendas. The battlefield has its own standards. Those standards are overtly dangerous for women because women can be easily hunted on the battlefield. That is why women do not serve in infantry units on the front lines. If women did serve in infantry units on the front lines, the male enemy soldiers would kill every single last one of them without breaking a sweat.


So Jedi,

You are full of contradictions. First, you said that women should be forced to serve in the army if they want equal opportunities.

And now you say that you don't find women in the front line because they would be easy targets. :rolleyes:

So, why should women be forced to join the army? I told you before, feminists promote equal opportunities in every level of employment or activities. However, who gets the position should be decided based on skills and education!!!


Q-S

[RandFan]

I believe that it is important to note that not all people in this world have the luxury to make a decision about whether or not to fight for their country. Anyone who is a United States ciitizen enjoys that luxury because others fought and died to give it to them.

[Agammamon]

So far I seem to be the only one voting other. Right now I am in the Navy (In fact right now I am pretending to work while writing this) and I will admit that I am pretty much a mercenary. When I was younger (31 now) I used to be somewhat idealistic now i just do it for the money. I am especially pleased that in the last decade I have been in, so few Navy people have died from any sort of enemy action (combat and terrorism not industrial accidents).
As for being forced to fight a war I would say that is the only time I find war to be immoral. We live in a democratic republic that lives or dies by the WILLING sacrifices its citizen have and will make. The US exist solely by concensus and the minute not enough of us are willing to protect it is the minute it will and by all rights should.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Q-Source


So Jedi,

You are full of contradictions. First, you said that women should be forced to serve in the army if they want equal opportunities.

And now you say that you don't find women in the front line because they would be easy targets. :rolleyes:

So, why should women be forced to join the army? I told you before, feminists promote equal opportunities in every level of employment or activities. However, who gets the position should be decided based on skills and education!!!


Q-S

Well I am not Jedi, but since he and I seem to be on the same side with respect to the issue you are asking him about, I am going to give you my answer and if he disagrees I am sure he will not hesitate to let us know. I think the point is that if women want the same rights as men then they should also have the same responsibilities. And that would include the draft. Women may not make good infantry but neither do quite a few men. This should not exempt them from having to serve. I could say more about this but it would stray pretty far from the current topic. If you want to debate this as a separate topic, I would be happy to do so. But considering past topics I have seen and how they have been corrupted, I can understand if you don't.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
<snip>All citizens have the duty to protect the sovereign at risk of their own life when the sovereign is threatened. Without the sovereign, there is no country</snip>
And my country fought one big civil war and numerous little wars to get away from this kind of thinking, "l'etat c'est moi" and all that nonsense. The French had the right idea.

As to the question in hand--there's a very small number of instances in which I'd fight for my country, but I, like many others, would sure as hell never fight for someone else's country; something Our Little Tony needs to get his head round.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by subgenius

I have a note from my mom saying I can't go to the war cause I got the sniffles.

:rotflmao:

And my mummy said i should never play with those bigger boys because they're hurtful and play rude games.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Advocate


Well I am not Jedi, but since he and I seem to be on the same side with respect to the issue you are asking him about, I am going to give you my answer and if he disagrees I am sure he will not hesitate to let us know. I think the point is that if women want the same rights as men then they should also have the same responsibilities. And that would include the draft. Women may not make good infantry but neither do quite a few men. This should not exempt them from having to serve. I could say more about this but it would stray pretty far from the current topic. If you want to debate this as a separate topic, I would be happy to do so. But considering past topics I have seen and how they have been corrupted, I can understand if you don't.

Very true. Why are men held to a different standard regarding the draft? If, on the day of a man's 18th birthday, he doesn't go to the post office and fill out a "here is where and who I am card", the government can go after him with a felony charge.

Does that happen to college women? No.

Plus the men will get all their government college benefits hammered, and become ineligible for student loans, etc.

Does that happen to women? No.

It is a biased and hugely discriminatory system. Either women be a part of it or it needs to be redesigned into something that isn't biased towards men. I was counting on women being a part of it so that in the next wars men do not come home in body bags in ratios of 98:2 that of women. It should be 50:50.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Q-Source
So Jedi,

You are full of contradictions. First, you said that women should be forced to serve in the army if they want equal opportunities.

And now you say that you don't find women in the front line because they would be easy targets. :rolleyes:

Well, just ignore that I said that and send them to the front lines.

So, why should women be forced to join the army? I told you before, feminists promote equal opportunities in every level of employment or activities. However, who gets the position should be decided based on skills and education!!!

If personnel decisions were based on experience and education, feminism, affirmative action and the other "quota" systems would cease to exist. What do you think powers those systems--education and experience? lol.

Women should be forced to join the army because men are forced to. It is as simple as that.

JK

[subgenius]

"Well, just ignore that I said that ....."
Good advice.
Done.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by RandFan
Anyone who is a United States ciitizen enjoys that luxury because others fought and died to give it to them.

Doesnt that "luxury" have more to do with the times that generation lives in. Is it my fault WWII didnt happen while i was of draft age? If there was a draft during my time I'd have to go off to war just as any other generation.

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Advocate

I think the point is that if women want the same rights as men then they should also have the same responsibilities.

Exactly, we all agree on this point. I have never said otherwise.


And that would include the draft.

Absolutly right !

Women may not make good infantry but neither do quite a few men. This should not exempt them from having to serve.

Again, you are right.

Now, let's analyse why at this moment women are not forced into the draft.

First, this is a decision that should be taken in a democratic system, costs and benefits should be considered. It is not a decision that concerns only to women. In fact, feminists have been fighting to gain more opportunities in the army. Furthermore, we are talking about national security, I don't think that a country would be smart enough to rely its defence on people with physical limitations. However, this may be not the case, it could be that women are stronger than men...

Second, in this perfect scenario of equal opportunities, women should be free from historical responsibilities that society has assigned to them (such as taking care of children and husband and housekeeping) in order to join the draft.

I don't mind following this debate. We both agree that women should be part of the draft. But I go further than that. We need more than "equal opportunities" wishes; society needs to establish a scenario where this may be possible.

Q-S

Jedi, I am gonna take that advice.

[Agammamon]

Seems like all the talk about the physical limitations of women centers around there not being as strong as men and not quite as suitable as bulltet sponge. I would like to point out that the frontline infantryman composes only a small portion of our armed forces. Think about armor, aircraft, ships, surveillance, balistic missile launchers not to mention that for every person at the pointy end of the spear there are several more in the rear ensuring that he has what he needs to fight. I've said before that the draft is contrary to the principles upon which a democratic state is founded, but if we are going to have one the burden must be shared as equally as possible. We don't put stupid people in ratings that require a high degree of intelligence, neither will we put a 5 ft 100lb woman in the field with a 60+lb pack. That said almost all of the women I have served with in the navy have been quite capable of performing all of the duties of their male counterparts, theonly real negative to having women serve alongside me is that some of the men they work for coddle them and the women get used to special treatment and get lazy. If we treat 'em like men they will work like men no problem.

[Tmy]

I think the big fear the women would all get knocked to avoid the draft. And what would you do with all those women soilders? You'd still have to have separate accomodations for men and women. That would be another logistical pain in the ass.

[Mike B.]

Jedi,
What conflict were you in?
What country?

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Q-Source

Now, let's analyse why at this moment women are not forced into the draft.

First, this is a decision that should be taken in a democratic system, costs and benefits should be considered. It is not a decision that concerns only to women. In fact, feminists have been fighting to gain more opportunities in the army. Furthermore, we are talking about national security, I don't think that a country would be smart enough to rely its defence on people with physical limitations. However, this may be not the case, it could be that women are stronger than men...

Depending on how you define "stronger" you could be right. I am glad (although somewhat suprised) that we are in agreement on so many points. Also, physical strength is not the only requisite for military service and in most cases is of relatively low priority.

Second, in this perfect scenario of equal opportunities, women should be free from historical responsibilities that society has assigned to them (such as taking care of children and husband and housekeeping) in order to join the draft.

I wouldn't say "free" from such responsibilities, any more than men would be "free" from their responsibilities to defend their families and their nation or to provide for their families financially. I do think that the responsibilities (and the opportunities as well) of both should be shared more equally. As equally as possible actually. I would personally love for men to have more involvement in taking care of children. As a man, I feel that men are far too often kept out of our children's lives and treated as simply a money source. This is in fact one of the things about contemporary feminism that upsets me the most. But that is probably a subject for another thread.

I don't mind following this debate. We both agree that women should be part of the draft. But I go further than that. We need more than "equal opportunities" wishes; society needs to establish a scenario where this may be possible.

I'll agree with you there too. I am not and have never been against equal rights or equal opportunities. What I am against is equal rights but UNequal responsibilities. Although obviously I would point to different examples than you would, I don't think we disagree too much there.

I have found that there are several varieties of feminists out there, which isn't really that surprising, and you do not seem to be among the type that I would object to. It seems to me that you are willing to accept equal responsibilities as well as equal opportunities, and IMHO that is a GREAT thing. I know from other threads that we disagree on some other issues, but I think we have common ground here. Now, what do you think we as a society could do to establish such a scenario?

[Brooklyn Dodger]

I guess I would serve, since I'm still in the Retired Reserve. With all the time I've done, and with my general condition, and all the loot they would have to pay me for as little as they could expect out of me, I doubt they would call me up.

On the other hand, if they want me I can't reasonably object. Yes, I would go, and if I heard they were looking for volunteers in any area I could fill, I would give them a call. I just hope flunking the physical doesn't cost me my pension when I reach age 60.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Jedi,
What conflict were you in?
What country?

I served in Panama for operation Just Cause, the 1st Persian Gulf War and Somalia. I am a completely indoctrinated right-wing arch-conservative hawk, just so you know. The only thing that matters to me is my country. I also possess a very clear and gifted intellect for political strategy, especially in the observation of enemy nation-states.

JK

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Tmy
Doesnt that "luxury" have more to do with the times that generation lives in. NO!

Patriots during the revolutionary war "elected" to fight the British. It is true that there was a draft during WWII and there was one during Vietnam. However public pressure brought an end to the conflict in Vietnam. If enough American citizens had chosen not to go or not to fight WWII it would have been difficult to achieve a victory and secure your "luxury" of living in freedom. I think it an insult to them to belittle their sacrifice as having only to do with chance.

Is it my fault WWII didn't happen while i was of draft age? If there was a draft during my time I'd have to go off to war just as any other generation. No one said it was your fault.

There were many who lacked the courage and would not fight. They simply deserted, went AWOL or chose prison or consiencsious objective status in order to avoid fighting. Had you been born in that generation you to could have taken one of these roads and not fought.

My point is that there were many who chose to stand and not run away in the face of danger. That many rose above and beyond the call of duty. That many men and women including wealthy ones lost family, property and even their lives during the revolutionary war in hopes that some day WE would have freedom. So much freedom that it could be said to be a luxury. Enough of a luxury that some would take the sacrifice of those that paid the ultimate price for your freedom for granted and chalk it all up to fate.

I defend your right to harbor such sentiment, though I find it disappointing.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Vernon Dent: Do you swear to defend the Republic and...

Moe: Republican??? Not me, I'm a Democrat!!!

Vernon Dent (looking toward Curly): How about you?

Curly: I'm a Pedestrian!!! Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk....

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by RandFan
Patriots during the revolutionary war "elected" to fight the British.
They weren't patriots, they were traitors to the crown. :D

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I served in Panama for operation Just Cause, the 1st Persian Gulf War and Somalia. I am a completely indoctrinated right-wing arch-conservative hawk, just so you know. The only thing that matters to me is my country. I also possess a very clear and gifted intellect for political strategy, especially in the observation of enemy nation-states.

JK

Quick question--what was your MOS?

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Advocate

I know from other threads that we disagree on some other issues, but I think we have common ground here.

Where have you been hiding, baby? ;)
I like open minded people, I don't like flamers like J.K. He could be an interesting guy to talk to but...


Now, what do you think we as a society could do to establish such a scenario?

You know what happened, I wrote a long answer and suddenly the system got down... aggg. :mad:

In few words, men and women have to sit and decide what are the rights and responsabilities for each one. This means that everybody have something to say in this matter : Government, feminists, employers, unions, right and left parties, etc. Everybody should respect agreements.

In this scenario, women could do anything that are considered activities only for men and vice versa. For example, they could join the army and the government and society would guarantee that their children are o.k.

But, this is off topic.
Sorry guys.

Q-S

[Tmy]

Originally posted by RandFan
I think it an insult to them to belittle their sacrifice as having only to do with chance.

I defend your right to harbor such sentiment, though I find it disappointing.

I dont mean to upset any vets, but its so easy to do cause its a sensative subject. Sort of like debating religion.

anyhoo here goes................I feel that some (note: I said SOME) people who have been in the military, come off as having an attitude that are superieor citizens and their opinions, whatever the subject, are more valid.

I have nothing against vets or the military. I have respect for anyone who does join the forces. We all have friends/family in uniform. But I have to admit that somtimes I feel that I am being shamed for not being in uniform. As if thats the only way to be of service to your country..............OK I'M JEALOUS YOU GOT IT OUT OF ME!!!

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Basic training is easy and nothing to be afraid of.

JK

How would you know?

[ntech]

Yes.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Starshark


How would you know?

Well gee, because I went through it? Gosh, that may be the reason lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


Quick question--what was your MOS?

I hold several different MOS's, but in war I functioned as an 11B (with other identifiers).

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tmy


I dont mean to upset any vets, but its so easy to do cause its a sensative subject. Sort of like debating religion.

anyhoo here goes................I feel that some (note: I said SOME) people who have been in the military, come off as having an attitude that are superieor citizens and their opinions, whatever the subject, are more valid.

I have nothing against vets or the military. I have respect for anyone who does join the forces. We all have friends/family in uniform. But I have to admit that somtimes I feel that I am being shamed for not being in uniform. As if thats the only way to be of service to your country..............OK I'M JEALOUS YOU GOT IT OUT OF ME!!!

You should see how vets feel, especially war veterans. When a person graduates from college, is it appropriate to tell them to "forget everything you ever learned" and "never mention" that you went to college?

What if someone came up to you and said that--you would think they were nuts, right?

Well that is what vets are told. People that have served are told that because of the internal population hostility towards them, derived from unnatural leftism.

JK

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Actually, not all vets feel the same way. Some feel a let down in many ways. Toward the service, toward the country. It's pretty common, and many become expatriots.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

I was listening to a really interesting Jean Shepherd Show (on tape)today with my 8-year-old daughter Jennifer. She was cracking up at appropriately funny stuff. But then he hit on some profound parts that kind of hit me toward the end.

He quoted an article in the London Times concerning aggression of man versus animals, and patterns of behavior in animals. In animals aggressive behavior settles territory, pecking order, etc., and is rarely dangerous. Hardly ever gets serious and certainly not deadly within the species. The opposite is true in man, where we have very deadly behavior, including war. Shep discusses this in context of what man is versus what other animals are, and it is extremely interestng.

Then he gets to the bottom of the article in the Times, where the author wonders if perhaps the Cold War may be man's substitute for the same sort of aggressive behavior in the animal kingdom. And all that time the NY Times (and others) had been editorializing how bad the Cold War is! Absolutely fascinating show. You might want to give a listen. It was done in June 1964, and is available for download through the Jean Shepherd Audio Archive.

http://shep-archives.com/Listings/Show.php?aonly=1&date=&desc=&category=show&source=FHC&audio=.&search=Search

Jun-64 show FHC Agressive Nature of Man

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Q-Source


Where have you been hiding, baby? ;)
I like open minded people, I don't like flamers like J.K. He could be an interesting guy to talk to but...


Well I am not JK, though we do share certain perspectives. And I must admit to sometimes saying pretty extreme things on occasion that on later reflection seem exaggerated. This is easier to avoid on a forum however than in a conversation. (Especially with my typing speed - or lack therof)


You know what happened, I wrote a long answer and suddenly the system got down... aggg. :mad:

Ouch!

In few words, men and women have to sit and decide what are the rights and responsabilities for each one. This means that everybody have something to say in this matter : Government, feminists, employers, unions, right and left parties, etc. Everybody should respect agreements.

I'll second that.

In this scenario, women could do anything that are considered activities only for men and vice versa. For example, they could join the army and the government and society would guarantee that their children are o.k.

But, this is off topic.
Sorry guys.

Q-S

And here is where I think you are losing me. Why should the government take care of the children for her? Shouldn't their father do that if she is not able to because of her career? The government does not do this for men even in those cases where he has sole custody. Unless you mean something different than it sounds like to me.

Anyways, we are straying pretty far from topic now. I am pretty new to the forum. Where would it be appropriate to create a new thread for this?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tmy


I dont mean to upset any vets, but its so easy to do cause its a sensative subject. Sort of like debating religion.

anyhoo here goes................I feel that some (note: I said SOME) people who have been in the military, come off as having an attitude that are superieor citizens and their opinions, whatever the subject, are more valid.

I have nothing against vets or the military. I have respect for anyone who does join the forces. We all have friends/family in uniform. But I have to admit that somtimes I feel that I am being shamed for not being in uniform. As if thats the only way to be of service to your country..............OK I'M JEALOUS YOU GOT IT OUT OF ME!!!

thats one of the things that has struck me about the US, and this board. I know no one in uniform, or has been in uniform. I have met a few over my life. I feel no obligation or guilt about being in uniform.

People in the armed forces appear to be very common in the US.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Tmy


I dont mean to upset any vets, but its so easy to do cause its a sensative subject. Sort of like debating religion.

anyhoo here goes................I feel that some (note: I said SOME) people who have been in the military, come off as having an attitude that are superieor citizens and their opinions, whatever the subject, are more valid.

I have nothing against vets or the military. I have respect for anyone who does join the forces. We all have friends/family in uniform. But I have to admit that somtimes I feel that I am being shamed for not being in uniform. As if thats the only way to be of service to your country..............OK I'M JEALOUS YOU GOT IT OUT OF ME!!! Cool, I'm not a vet. I think you make a valid point though.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I hold several different MOS's, but in war I functioned as an 11B (with other identifiers).

JK

infantry.

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I hold several different MOS's, but in war I functioned as an 11B (with other identifiers).

JK

Interestingly vague of you, JK. Does that answer mean that you were an 11B or not? I'm not clear as to what you mean by the word "functioned". If a cook picks up a rifle when the BSA is overrun, he is essentially "functioning" as an 11B--so please clarify.

What were the MOS's that you held, as well as the identifiers?

To be fair, I was a 12A and a 25C.

For everyone else, an 11B is a "Basic Rifleman". There are other types of Infantry, such as 11M and 11C (Mechanized infantry and Mortarman). "Designators" are suffixes that are added to the MOS for additional skills like Airborne or Ranger School among others.

[Tmy]

Ooooooo JK, he's implying that you made up your military history! Or at least you are exaggerating what you did during your enlistment.

(I figure Im not the only one who suspected that JK's stories were a bunch of 1/2 baked fabrications)

[^evane$cent^]

1) Would you, fight for your country?

Would the country, fight for me?

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?
Would my country, do any of the above, if I was actually being threatened?

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?
Would my country, volunteer for the above, to protect me?

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?
Would they like it if, I told them they had to go to war for me?


5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?
Is my country, proud of me, or indifferent?

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?
What would they think, if I told them, that is what I wanted them, to do?

[Brooklyn Dodger]

In the Air Force we had AFSCswhich are like MOSs, and I had a collection of them too. If I can recall what I had, no I can't remember all the numbers but I know what they meant.

Radar Weapons Controller, Manual
Navigator, Basic, eventually Master Navigator
Navigator, Air Transport, Instructor
Weapon Systems Officer
Public Affairs Officer

I think that was about it.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ooooooo JK, he's implying that you made up your military history! Or at least you are exaggerating what you did during your enlistment.

(I figure Im not the only one who suspected that JK's stories were a bunch of 1/2 baked fabrications)

Bluto and tmy,

The subject of JK's military service has come up more than once. He has claimed to be a bit more than just an infantryman in the past. He claimed to know quite a bit about combat engineer skills. I quizzed him on demolitions and leadership details. His answers were not in error, but quite incomplete. He did rattle off a list of manuals, including FM5-34 (this is the combat engineer field manual), but with no reference to their content. (I still have a copy of FM5-34 at home.)

He has also tried to pass of combat engineers as some sort of elite troops. I have been both a combat engineer, (enlisted,) and infantry officer, (National Guard.) I find JK's ideas on this to be quite laughable.

The threads where he made these assertions can be found by the search function.

JK equating combat engineers to special forces (Second to last post on page):

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=9211&highlight=combat+engineer

JK answering some questions I put to him (Starts 2/3 of the way down the page):

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=186798#post186798

And then we have JK on Honesty:


A lie is only a lie if the person receiving the information has a need to know.

JK

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10163&highlight=tell+truth

[Smalso]

RandFan: "There were many who lacked the courage and would not fight. They simply deserted, went AWOL or chose prison or consiencsious objective status in order to avoid fighting."

I hope you are not implying that all those who claimed consciencsious objector status did so because they lacked courage, were cowards, or were not patriotic.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Doubt


Bluto and tmy,

The subject of JK's military service has come up more than once. He has claimed to be a bit more than just an infantryman in the past. He claimed to know quite a bit about combat engineer skills. I quizzed him on demolitions and leadership details. His answers were not in error, but quite incomplete. He did rattle off a list of manuals, including FM5-34 (this is the combat engineer field manual), but with no reference to their content. (I still have a copy of FM5-34 at home.)

He has also tried to pass of combat engineers as some sort of elite troops. I have been both a combat engineer, (enlisted,) and infantry officer, (National Guard.) I find JK's ideas on this to be quite laughable.

The threads where he made these assertions can be found by the search function.

JK equating combat engineers to special forces (Second to last post on page):

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=9211&highlight=combat+engineer

JK answering some questions I put to him (Starts 2/3 of the way down the page):

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=186798#post186798

And then we have JK on Honesty:


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10163&highlight=tell+truth

I find what you wrote pretty laughable. You were an officer? Who let you slip through, OCS right? Or maybe you were an EO2? That would explain it.

The point I was making in those posts you linked is that elite units recruit heavily from infantry units and combat engineer units. The selectees have to pass the schools, but that is where a vast number of recruits come from--the combat arms MOS's.

It appears that you wouldn't know that and that is why you rushed to judgement thinking my posts meant anything different than that.

JK

[Checkmite]

Believe it or not, I'm seriously considering joining the military sometime within the next year or two. I really hope the latest tensions with Iraq will be over or slackened by then.

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Doubt
The threads where he made these assertions can be found by the search function.

JK equating combat engineers to special forces (Second to last post on page):

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=9211&highlight=combat+engineer

JK answering some questions I put to him (Starts 2/3 of the way down the page):

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=186798#post186798

And then we have JK on Honesty:


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10163&highlight=tell+truth

Thanks Doubt, that's kinda what I figured.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tmy
Ooooooo JK, he's implying that you made up your military history! Or at least you are exaggerating what you did during your enlistment.

(I figure Im not the only one who suspected that JK's stories were a bunch of 1/2 baked fabrications)

There is nothing to be jealous of, really. Anyone here can do what I did in the military. If you are under 35 (I think that is the cutoff age for enlistment), go to your local recruitment office and sign up.

It is all on you and that is how the military deals with it. You can do anything you want. You just need to have the guts to finish it.

JK

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Or maybe you were an EO2?

Hmmm...

Jedi, did you mean to write "E02" (with a zero) or "EO2" (with a capital O)? Looks like you used a capital letter. EO2 doesn't exist.

Oh, and by the way--when you write out the paygrade of a Private, it's usually done "E-2". I know that the published paycharts sometimes use E02 but no one else really does.

[rikzilla]

From something I saw on a company bulletin board back in my Army days:


(An Army ad parody)

"Join the Army!
Travel to far away, exotic lands,
experience foreign cultures,
meet interesting and fascinating peoples,
and kill them."



:D ;)

Okay,...been there, done that.
I've answered the call and done my duty....now I think I'll watch the next one on tv.

Most of us live in a westernized world....we are free to ask questions of those in power. Here on this board we exercise this duty freely and often. I called it a duty, because simply it is. When we are asked to shut up and stop questioning our government is when we will look around and see the beginning of our own Iraqi police state.

Although I've disagreed with many here, I want you all to know that I hold this process of info,...this exchange of ideas...in the highest regard.

Thanks for playing.
-zilla

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


Hmmm...

Jedi, did you mean to write "E02" (with a zero) or "EO2" (with a capital O)? Looks like you used a capital letter. EO2 doesn't exist.

Oh, and by the way--when you write out the paygrade of a Private, it's usually done "E-2". I know that the published paycharts sometimes use E02 but no one else really does.

Well, Doubt said he was an "officer" with enlisted time, so for pay purposes (in the old days) he would be an E02 (enlisted 0-2, he would get credit for his enlisted time and his pay would be slightly higher).

Like I said, it seems that the thread is focusing on me because of jealously and all simply because I won't "publish" what I did in the military or give you a total rundown of units/times/deployments/ect.

I can't do that because it will sever my anonyminity here. I don't want to know any of you in real life.

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I don't want to know any of you in real life.

JK

The feeling is not mutual. I have crazier friends than you. :D

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
he would be an E02 (enlisted 0-2, he would get credit for his enlisted time and his pay would be slightly higher).

Nope, he would be an O-2E. Current pay chart (http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/2003-REV2.pdf)

Like I said, it seems that the thread is focusing on me because of jealously and all simply because I won't "publish" what I did in the military or give you a total rundown of units/times/deployments/ect.

I think the thread is focusing on you because your statements lack credibility.

Why won't you tell me your primary MOS?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


Nope, he would be an O-2E. Current pay chart (http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/2003-REV2.pdf)



I think the thread is focusing on you because your statements lack credibility.

Why won't you tell me your primary MOS?

uh-oh..... Sounds like JK's about to get outted as a high schooler with a cable modem! :D :rolleyes:

So...indeed...what was that MOS???? If you don't wanna say, then why not tell us what an MOS is?? :confused: :eek:

I was a 32D10 primary....36C10 secondary.

-zilla

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Believe it or not, I'm seriously considering joining the military sometime within the next year or two. I really hope the latest tensions with Iraq will be over or slackened by then.

Yeah. You'll be just in time for the escalation of tensions with North Korea! :D

Don't join the freaking military if you are trying to avoid "tensions."

Just a tip from a 20 year vet. ;)

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


There is nothing to be jealous of, really. Anyone here can do what I did in the military. If you are under 35 (I think that is the cutoff age for enlistment), go to your local recruitment office and sign up.

It is all on you and that is how the military deals with it. You can do anything you want. You just need to have the guts to finish it.

JK

I think Ill pass. Joining the military at this point would really f-up my life. Plus Ive recently run into health problems thatd probably disqualify me.

Back when I was drafting age most of my friends werent really looking to go into the military. Those who did go in did so because
1) raise money for college
2) their life wasn't really going anywhere, try somthing exciting.
3) to get out of town, or to break away from the family
4) wanted specific training (ex. become a pilot)

I dont recall anyone joining as a matter of patriotism. Then agian it was a more peaceful time.

What separates the men from the boys on an internet forum is honesty. It is better to say that one does not wish to reveal personal information than to create a false identity for the purpose of inventing oneself as an "authority."

I remember partying in New Orleans right after Desert Storm, there were a couple of guys in desert cammies on Bourbon Street. I think they thought they would be chick magnets. It is hard to explain, but it is easy for a real military person to recognize a poseur, and I was thinking about challenging them. The uniforms looked authentic, but something still felt off. But then I overheard someone else ask them their military status. Turns out they were inactive reserves. They had never even been called up. They didn't even do the weekend warrior stuff that active reserves do.

At least they didn't lie once challenged. I still have a problem with the unspoken impression they were trying to give.

I've said before that there are many ways to serve your country. The military is only one of those many. I don't look down on anyone just because they haven't served in the military.

All I ask for is honesty and character. I can treat with any opinions contrary to mine as long as those criteria are met.

[Tmy]

Wait a minute..........are you saying that somtimes people on the internet LIE about themselves!!!!!! Im shocked..

Ooops, I gotta go. Colin Powell just called. He and Connie Rice want more advice on how to handle Saddam Hussain. Like I have time forthem.. me and my supermodel girlfriend are flying off to Paris this evening.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I find what you wrote pretty laughable. You were an officer? Who let you slip through, OCS right? Or maybe you were an EO2? That would explain it.

The point I was making in those posts you linked is that elite units recruit heavily from infantry units and combat engineer units. The selectees have to pass the schools, but that is where a vast number of recruits come from--the combat arms MOS's.

It appears that you wouldn't know that and that is why you rushed to judgement thinking my posts meant anything different than that.

JK

My pay grade was O-1E. I was a ROTC grad. Two years of simultaneous enlistment (Guard and ROTC together, followed by 2 more years with the guard.) The timing of my commissioning was quite bad, and I had no real opportunity to go back to active duty as an officer. Most of those that I was commissioned with left the service within 3 years. I hated the National Guard and was quite happy to leave.

Elite units do not recruit "heavily" from anybody. The only route for combat engineers to become elite is through special forces. Your typical A team only needs 2 engineers out of 12 men and one of them is an officer. The content of your posts is quite clear. You know a lot about the military, but you cannot put the pieces together. My best guess is that you probably are a basic training drop out. There is the small chance that you may even have been an 11B. But you are nothing special.

There is no rush to judgement. I have been watching you spew garbage around for about a year. The guys who do the things you claim to have done don't talk much. Most of them even know how to write an operations order.

You have a problem telling the truth. You know you have a problem. What in your life is so screwed up that you have to invent a commando fantasy? Your credibility here is zero. Name one veteran on this board that believes you.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by LukeT


Yeah. You'll be just in time for the escalation of tensions with North Korea! :D

Don't join the freaking military if you are trying to avoid "tensions."

Just a tip from a 20 year vet. ;)

Luke,

Was that you that I and my wife were sitting in front of at the Amaz!ng Meeting??? I hope it was...'cause I told the guy he didn't look so much like his avatar. (well thankfully I don't either)

Nice seeing you...that is if it was you. The fact that JK's name even got mentioned at the AM was cause for groans from the audience!
:rolleyes:
-zilla

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Luke,

Was that you that I and my wife were sitting in front of at the Amaz!ng Meeting??? I hope it was...'cause I told the guy he didn't look so much like his avatar. (well thankfully I don't either)

Nice seeing you...that is if it was you. The fact that JK's name even got mentioned at the AM was cause for groans from the audience!
:rolleyes:
-zilla

My name got mentioned at the Amazing Meeting? LOL. That is pretty hilarious. Who mentioned me? I was unable to attend. (not that I would with all my "fans" out there) lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Doubt


My pay grade was O-1E. I was a ROTC grad. Two years of simultaneous enlistment (Guard and ROTC together, followed by 2 more years with the guard.) The timing of my commissioning was quite bad, and I had no real opportunity to go back to active duty as an officer. Most of those that I was commissioned with left the service within 3 years. I hated the National Guard and was quite happy to leave.

Elite units do not recruit "heavily" from anybody. The only route for combat engineers to become elite is through special forces. Your typical A team only needs 2 engineers out of 12 men and one of them is an officer. The content of your posts is quite clear. You know a lot about the military, but you cannot put the pieces together. My best guess is that you probably are a basic training drop out. There is the small chance that you may even have been an 11B. But you are nothing special.

There is no rush to judgement. I have been watching you spew garbage around for about a year. The guys who do the things you claim to have done don't talk much. Most of them even know how to write an operations order.

You have a problem telling the truth. You know you have a problem. What in your life is so screwed up that you have to invent a commando fantasy? Your credibility here is zero. Name one veteran on this board that believes you.

You weren't even on active duty? Why are you even talking to me?

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tmy
Back when I was drafting age most of my friends werent really looking to go into the military. Those who did go in did so because
1) raise money for college
2) their life wasn't really going anywhere, try somthing exciting.
3) to get out of town, or to break away from the family
4) wanted specific training (ex. become a pilot)

Wow, those reasons you listed are reasons most college students go to college.

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


My name got mentioned at the Amazing Meeting? LOL. That is pretty hilarious. Who mentioned me? I was unable to attend. (not that I would with all my "fans" out there) lol.

JK

Girl6 gave a presentation about the JREF Forum. Among other statistics, she mentioned that you had the most posts on the forum.

Thus, the groan....

Originally posted by rikzilla


Luke,

Was that you that I and my wife were sitting in front of at the Amaz!ng Meeting??? I hope it was...'cause I told the guy he didn't look so much like his avatar. (well thankfully I don't either)

Nice seeing you...that is if it was you. The fact that JK's name even got mentioned at the AM was cause for groans from the audience!
:rolleyes:
-zilla

It could have been me. I don't recall meeting the real life person behind "rikzilla" though....

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You weren't even on active duty? Why are you even talking to me?

JK

Allow me to affirm Doubt's comments then, JK. I heartily agree with him.

So name one veteran on this board who believes you. Because this one doesn't.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by LukeT


It could have been me. I don't recall meeting the real life person behind "rikzilla" though....

I was right in front of you....brown/grey hair..glasses...goatee... very attractive blonde lady sitting to my right??? (you MUST have noticed her :D )

Anyway,....I tried to say hi to you, but there was alot going on on stage at the moment.....so I didn't try very hard...and thus was not memorable :( ...also "rikzilla" somehow failed to get on my name tag.

...anyway...it was nice almost meeting you! :)

-zilla

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT


Girl6 gave a presentation about the JREF Forum. Among other statistics, she mentioned that you had the most posts on the forum.

Thus, the groan....

Well, Girl6 is a fan of mine then ;). That is cool I like her. She is one of the better JREF "kids".

However, I must acknowledge that I do not have the most posts on this forum. That is untrue. If you look to my total posts it is only 3717. Franko and others have much more than I do. There are folks who have 4000+ posts.

Perhaps they were all "groaning" in admiration hehe.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT


Allow me to affirm Doubt's comments then, JK. I heartily agree with him.

So name one veteran on this board who believes you. Because this one doesn't.

So?

JK

[Kilted_Canuck]

I would probably go to war for Canada, but knowing our politicians, we would most likely do peacekeeping, or armored recce. I am confident that our politicans would make the right choice regarding going to war against Iraq. Our politicans agree that we won't commit many of our forces unless the proverbial fecal matter hits the fan, or the UN sanctions a war against Iraq.

I think that the decisions about war are the biggest in a politican's career. Your head of state should make his decisions without daddy's influence.

Regarding females in the military...

Here in Canada, we have a system that the United States forces should adopt. A position in any part of the military is accessable to both males or females, as long as they meet the standards. We have high standards, and you'd be surprised what how strong, fast, and accurate females can be...

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You weren't even on active duty? Why are you even talking to me?

JK

No, you nitwit!

You don’t get that E at the end of an officers pay grade unless you have at least 4 years enlisted time. I was a 12B on active duty for 4 years. Your inability to put simple information like this together is what gives you away as a fraud.

Also, when were those “olden” days when E02 was a valid pay grade? I enlisted in ’81 and I don’t recall that format at all. But then, you don’t know what the hell you are talking about to start with, so your opinions and ideas don’t really mater.

Don’t worry too much JK. We are not laughing with you. We are laughing at you.
:rolleyes:

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Well, Doubt said he was an "officer" with enlisted time, so for pay purposes (in the old days) he would be an E02 (enlisted 0-2, he would get credit for his enlisted time and his pay would be slightly higher).

Like I said, it seems that the thread is focusing on me because of jealously and all simply because I won't "publish" what I did in the military or give you a total rundown of units/times/deployments/ect.

I can't do that because it will sever my anonyminity here. I don't want to know any of you in real life.

JK

Either that, or you're full of crap. Which is it, I wonder?

You haven't explained how a fifteen-year old got to work with any unit, let alone combat engineering.

[Starshark]

Originally posted by LukeT


Girl6 gave a presentation about the JREF Forum. Among other statistics, she mentioned that you had the most posts on the forum.

Thus, the groan....

Gee, that's something I'd like to be known for!

I wonder how it feels to be known as a lying f***wad all over the globe. Must be special.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Doubt


No, you nitwit!

You don’t get that E at the end of an officers pay grade unless you have at least 4 years enlisted time. I was a 12B on active duty for 4 years. Your inability to put simple information like this together is what gives you away as a fraud.

Also, when were those “olden” days when E02 was a valid pay grade? I enlisted in ’81 and I don’t recall that format at all. But then, you don’t know what the hell you are talking about to start with, so your opinions and ideas don’t really mater.

Don’t worry too much JK. We are not laughing with you. We are laughing at you.
:rolleyes:

lol, you are just jealous! You are jealous Doubt and it is hilarious!

Remember, jealousy is a cardinal sin. You should know better.

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


should know better.

JK
pot? kettle?

My experience is that people that have been in combat do not brag about killing as if it were a game. As a trolling tactic to get the attention you crave you seem quite happy to talk of adult issues with the stupidity of a child. This is unfortunate because you cheapen the sacrifices people have made to ensure your freedom to talk **** on this forum.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by The Fool
pot? kettle?

My experience is that people that have been in combat do not brag about killing as if it were a game. As a trolling tactic to get the attention you crave you seem quite happy to talk of adult issues with the stupidity of a child. This is unfortunate because you cheapen the sacrifices people have made to ensure your freedom to talk **** on this forum.

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


lol, you are just jealous! You are jealous Doubt and it is hilarious!

Remember, jealousy is a cardinal sin. You should know better.

JK

My 7 year old nephew uses this debating tactic as well.

Bravo!

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


lol, you are just jealous! You are jealous Doubt and it is hilarious!

Remember, jealousy is a cardinal sin. You should know better.

JK


Notice he did not actually refute anything Doubt said. Expect him to disappear from the forum for a few days, in the hope people forget he's just been busted.......

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland



Notice he did not actually refute anyhting Doubt said. Expect him to disappear from the forum for a few days, in the hope people forget he's just been busted.......

That seems to be the formula.

I never really answered the original question of this topic, so let me say now that I would fight for my country. But as a veteran of 20 years, you guys already knew that.

If the motive behind the question was "Would you fight in the upcoming war with Iraq for your country?" then I would also answer in the affirmative.

I know my country has been wrong in the past. But I believe it has been right a heck of a lot more often.

I can't base my opinion on the rightness or wrongness of specific good or bad decisions made in the past. I have to take the whole.

When I was on active duty, and facing the possibility of having to actually kill other human beings, lets face it, you tend to grasp onto anything that tells you it is okay to kill other human beings, and ignore anything that tells you it is wrong to kill other human beings. And that is a form of self-brainwashing. I know. But if you weren't there, you can't understand. On some level, every fighting man goes through that struggle.

No flag-burning, storefront window breaking, whining little snot parading through our streets in a war protest will ever come close to the personal anguish a military man feels over the death of a civilian caused by our nation's policies or a war action.

If I thought my country had done more wrong than good, I certainly wouldn't have served 20 years.

I was proud of my country, and I still am. And I would fight for it any time, gladly.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Why is it that threads like this devolve into credentials and whether some one actually served? Who cares? So what? Going through tea leaves to try to analyze whether some one actually served and in what capacity does what? Not a damned thing I can see.

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
Why is it that threads like this devolve into credentials and whether some one actually served? Who cares? So what? Going through tea leaves to try to analyze whether some one actually served and in what capacity does what? Not a damned thing I can see.

I may be the one to blame for the initial sidetracking of this thread, because JK's comments struck me as being absurd. He has often implied that he is more of an authority on such subjects because of his claims of service. Not only did I find that silly, I found his claims sillier.

I don't think you have to have served in order to debate this topic. I agree with you, it's irrelevant. The question here is "Would you fight for your country".

My answer is yes, if called I would fight.

Those of us who have served may be able to offer some unique insight to the topic as a result of our experiences, but we are by no means the authority. Someone who has had the opportunity to live in several different countries, for example, would have a lot to bring to the table here.

My credentials as far as military service certainly don't automatically make me an expert on all subjects relating to armed conflict and statecraft. I did ROTC in college while earning a degree in Government and Law, served on active duty for just short of five years and decided to leave to pursue a civilian career. I was an Armor officer and transitioned to the Signal Corps. No "elite" training (so many officers go to Airborne school I couldn't really call it "elite"), no super-dooper security clearance, and I've never been to war.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
Why is it that threads like this devolve into credentials and whether some one actually served? Who cares? So what? Going through tea leaves to try to analyze whether some one actually served and in what capacity does what? Not a damned thing I can see.

This mostly happens when one particular poster shows up spouting opinions that are not very well informed. JK's fraud reflects badly on the rest of us who have served. This sort of misrepresentation does damage to military institutions and all of who have served in any capacity.

The army special operators need to do more of what some ex-seals have done. The SEALS have an organization dedicated to exposing the frauds out there that claim to be former members:

http://www.authentiseal.org/index.htm

Their wall of shame has a really good explanation as to why they go out of their way to uncover the frauds.

I have not found anyone looking for Delta or Ranger Frauds. But there is a group looking for Special Forces frauds. Here are their (somewhat dated) tips for spotting frauds:

http://home.att.net/%7ELzzzbolt/BEWARE.htm

Of course, JK tries to stay out of trouble by not stating an actual unit affiliation. He just cannot pull it off. He has a huge problem with reading comprehension. This makes it hard for him to present a good consistent story.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto
My credentials as far as military service certainly don't automatically make me an expert on all subjects relating to armed conflict and statecraft. I did ROTC in college while earning a degree in Government and Law, served on active duty for just short of five years and decided to leave to pursue a civilian career. I was an Armor officer and transitioned to the Signal Corps. No "elite" training (so many officers go to Airborne school I couldn't really call it "elite"), no super-dooper security clearance, and I've never been to war.

This is the gist of the problem and please, keep piling it on. The only thing I have said about my service is that I served in the army and served in war. I also said that I engaged the enemy directly and the men I worked with wiped them out, which is 100% true.

Now, you and your leftist pal Doubt and his ultra leftist pal LukeT can disagree with that because I have not provided any of Mos's, etc, nor have I provided information on the units I served with and that is fine because I have no intention of doing so. I said that long before you all began attacking me for my honorable service to my country.

Now, if you idiots would like to put your money where your mouths are, I would be more than pleased to prove it and get paid at the same time. Just think of it as an Amazing Jedi Challenge. I am challenging your claims and the claims of other leftists here that I am a "fraud". Ready to bust into that bank account, jackass, or are you a spineless name-calling troll with no backbone?

JK

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
Why is it that threads like this devolve into credentials and whether some one actually served? Who cares? So what? Going through tea leaves to try to analyze whether some one actually served and in what capacity does what? Not a damned thing I can see.

I offered my rationale for why I would fight for my country. Fighting for one's country implies that one would kill or die for one's country. I think that deserves an explanation. My credentials are an inherent part of that explanation.

As for challenging someone on their claims of service, it is disrespectful toward those who have served to allow those kinds of false claims to pass.

This is a skeptics' board. What do you expect? :D

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


This is the gist of the problem and please, keep piling it on. The only thing I have said about my service is that I served in the army and served in war. I also said that I engaged the enemy directly and the men I worked with wiped them out, which is 100% true.

No, you said that you "Decimated the enemy on the battlefield(s)." You said it here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=186798#post186798) So did you do it or did your buddies do it? You make it sound like you've seen too many movies or been to too many Quake LAN parties.

In the same thread, you gave your outline for a 21 paragraph operations order. Dude--Operations orders have 5 paragraphs. A lot of what you listed should actually be located in the sub paragraphs of paragraphs 3 and 4. Check out FM's 7-8 or 17-15 for the format.

Now, you and your leftist pal Doubt and his ultra leftist pal LukeT can disagree with that because I have not provided any of Mos's, etc, nor have I provided information on the units I served with and that is fine because I have no intention of doing so. I said that long before you all began attacking me for my honorable service to my country.

Why is everyone who disagrees with you automatically labeled "leftist"? Oh, yeah--that's because you've rationalized your insanity by equating it with some form of extreme right wing patriotism.

Now, if you idiots would like to put your money where your mouths are, I would be more than pleased to prove it and get paid at the same time. Just think of it as an Amazing Jedi Challenge. I am challenging your claims and the claims of other leftists here that I am a "fraud". Ready to bust into that bank account, jackass, or are you a spineless name-calling troll with no backbone?

JK

How do you propose to do this, when you are unwilling to answer even the simplest questions? Maybe we should sick P&T on you for an upcoming episode.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


No, you said that you "Decimated the enemy on the battlefield(s)." You said it here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=186798#post186798) So did you do it or did your buddies do it? You make it sound like you've seen too many movies or been to too many Quake LAN parties.

In the same thread, you gave your outline for a 21 paragraph operations order. Dude--Operations orders have 5 paragraphs. A lot of what you listed should actually be located in the sub paragraphs of paragraphs 3 and 4. Check out FM's 7-8 or 17-15 for the format.



Why is everyone who disagrees with you automatically labeled "leftist"? Oh, yeah--that's because you've rationalized your insanity by equating it with some form of extreme right wing patriotism.



How do you propose to do this, when you are unwilling to answer even the simplest questions? Maybe we should sick P&T on you for an upcoming episode.

Yes, we did "decimate" the enemy on the battlefield. We eliminated every combatant in our sector of operations during the war I was discussing.

Now, since you are your pal LukeT say I am a "fraud", step up with some backbone and challenge me with a wager on it. Don't be a spineless leftist. You guys said I am a fraud. I can prove I am not. Do you have the guts to stand by your claim against me, or is your reputation here simply cannon-fodder now?

JK

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Yes, we did "decimate" the enemy on the battlefield. We eliminated every combatant in our sector of operations during the war I was discussing.

So it's "we", and not "I" now--right? By "we" do you mean your squad, your platoon, your division, your corps? What are you talking about. And are you talking about Panama or Somalia?

Now, since you are your pal LukeT say I am a "fraud", step up with some backbone and challenge me with a wager on it. Don't be a spineless leftist. You guys said I am a fraud. I can prove I am not. Do you have the guts to stand by your claim against me, or is your reputation here simply cannon-fodder now?

JK

JK, I just asked you how you propose to go about doing this--I'm not going to enter into a bet with a lunatic without knowing the conditions and terms.

Stop flailing and answer some questions. By the way, it's a bit early for you to be posting--it that because it's a snow day for you or something, kiddo?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT


I offered my rationale for why I would fight for my country. Fighting for one's country implies that one would kill or die for one's country. I think that deserves an explanation. My credentials are an inherent part of that explanation.

As for challenging someone on their claims of service, it is disrespectful toward those who have served to allow those kinds of false claims to pass.

This is a skeptics' board. What do you expect? :D

If you are so sure about my service, lefty, you wouldn't have a problem putting a wager on it. Come on loser, step up and show some backbone. I am ready to prove it. You have called me out.

Care to accept the Amazing Jedi Challenge? You won't run away now like the psychics who run away from the Amazing JREF challenge, will you?

Get you and your lefty pal Brother Bluto to come up with some type of wager. You called me out--let's finish it. I will even provide the information directly to Hal Bidlack, your fellow JREF pal. I trust Hal because he is an honorable soldier like me, and frankly, when Hal sees it he is going to say "wow, the leftists Brother Bluto and LukeT should have never challenged Jedi".

Come on Lukey boy, bring it on!

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


So it's "we", and not "I" now--right? By "we" do you mean your squad, your platoon, your division, your corps? What are you talking about. And are you talking about Panama or Somalia?



JK, I just asked you how you propose to go about doing this--I'm not going to enter into a bet with a lunatic without knowing the conditions and terms.

Stop flailing and answer some questions. By the way, it's a bit early for you to be posting--it that because it's a snow day for you or something, kiddo?

No, this thread is about "would you serve your country". I posted that I did serve and I served in war. LukeT called me a "fraud". You piled on. Now all I am asking for is the chance to prove what I said is true, but you have to wager something. I am not going to just hand over the information to Hal without something to make it worth my while.

Are you retreating now or what? Let me know so I don't have to waste anymore of my time with your sorry ass, loser.

JK

[Tmy]

Do the vets of other wars look down on the Gulf War vets. Being that the Gulf war was so quick n easy.

[BrotherBluto]

From Webster's (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)

Main Entry: New Left
Function: noun
Date: 1960
: a political movement originating especially among students in the 1960s, favoring confrontational tactics, often breaking with older leftist ideologies, and concerned especially with antiwar, antinuclear, feminist, and ecological issues
- new leftist noun, often capitalized N&Latin

Add to that, "Anyone who asks JK a question he doesn't like"

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto
From Webster's (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)

Main Entry: New Left
Function: noun
Date: 1960
: a political movement originating especially among students in the 1960s, favoring confrontational tactics, often breaking with older leftist ideologies, and concerned especially with antiwar, antinuclear, feminist, and ecological issues
- new leftist noun, often capitalized N&Latin

Add to that, "Anyone who asks JK a question he doesn't like"

Just as I thought--a spineless coward. Come on, you and LukeT said my military service didn't exist and I was a "fraud". Are you going to back up those BS claims against me or run away like the name-calling troll that you are?

Don't change the subject. Let's wager. I know who I am and what honorable things I have done for my country in uniform--are you ready to stand up to your claim that I never served?

If you are not, let me know and then apologize, or stand with some backbone and let's wager.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Tmy
Do the vets of other wars look down on the Gulf War vets. Being that the Gulf war was so quick n easy.

No, all war is duty, honor, sacrifice. No war veteran looks down at any other war veteran regardless of what the conflict was.

JK

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


No, this thread is about "would you serve your country". I posted that I did serve and I served in war. LukeT called me a "fraud". You piled on. Now all I am asking for is the chance to prove what I said is true, but you have to wager something. I am not going to just hand over the information to Hal without something to make it worth my while.

Are you retreating now or what? Let me know so I don't have to waste anymore of my time with your sorry ass, loser.

JK

Read my posts again. The answers to the questions are there. As to your challenge, I have only said so far that I would need to know and agree to the terms and conditions of such a challenge before committing to it. I haven't backed away.

You are either not reading what people are posting or are deliberately talking in circles to avoid answering questions.

Fill in the following blanks truthfully and I'll leave you alone: "Hi, my screen name is Jedi Knight and I served in the ___________ from ______ -- _______. My primary Military Occupational Specialty was _______."

I'm not asking for anything that would violate the privacy act. Just a simple question.

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


No, this thread is about "would you serve your country". I posted that I did serve and I served in war. LukeT called me a "fraud". You piled on. Now all I am asking for is the chance to prove what I said is true, but you have to wager something. I am not going to just hand over the information to Hal without something to make it worth my while.

Are you retreating now or what? Let me know so I don't have to waste anymore of my time with your sorry ass, loser.

JK

The only money I would spend on you is the necessary funds to file a request using the freedom of information act. Give me your name and contact information and I can find out the truth.

http://home.att.net/~Lzzzbolt/BEWARE.htm

:

I only know of one instance when individual records were unavailable under the Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA).
Those records were unavailable because of an inquiry/investigation of possible illegal activities. Records are not "sealed" and
stored at a secret bunker at Site 51 in Nevada. (I've heard that one.)


Tell us who you are JK. You are not going to make a dime on this no matter what. No document provided by you will be considered acceptable proof.

BTW: Hal does not believe you either.

I am the one calling you a fraud. Provide the information needed to prove otherwise, and I will take it back. Otherwise, your BS speaks for itself.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Just as I thought--a spineless coward. Come on, you and LukeT said my military service didn't exist and I was a "fraud". Are you going to back up those BS claims against me or run away like the name-calling troll that you are?

Don't change the subject. Let's wager. I know who I am and what honorable things I have done for my country in uniform--are you ready to stand up to your claim that I never served?

If you are not, let me know and then apologize, or stand with some backbone and let's wager.

JK

This is the kind of response I used to give to people who argued with me about who had the biggest marble collection when I was like, seven.........

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Doubt


The only money I would spend on you is the necessary funds to file a request using the freedom of information act. Give me your name and contact information and I can find out the truth.

http://home.att.net/~Lzzzbolt/BEWARE.htm



Tell us who you are JK. You are not going to make a dime on this no matter what. No document provided by you will be considered acceptable proof.

BTW: Hal does not believe you either.

I am the one calling you a fraud. Provide the information needed to prove otherwise, and I will take it back. Otherwise, your BS speaks for itself.

I am right here, loser. I am ready to prove it. I am not going to give you my prsonal information. I will send it to Hal, he can verify it without "haters" like you knowing who I am. You say Hal doesn't believe it? Well since you are speaking for him let me fill you in on something--Hal is a commissioned field grade officer. When he sees what I will send him he will post that he was wrong in thinking that about me.

So what's it going to be. You don't trust Hal? Come on, I am ready to wager. You say you won't "spend any money". That is because you are afraid and are weak. You, like the psychics that run from the JREF challenge, are wimps.

You started it pal. I am ready to prove it. Are you ready to stand by your words or run away? Are you running from the Amazing Jedi Challenge--a simple challenge to prove that I served in the military and in war?

JK

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto

"Hi, my screen name is BrotherBluto and I served in the _United States Army_ from _June, 1996_ -- _February, 2001_. My primary Military Occupational Specialty was _25A__."
Officer MOS chart (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blarmyofficermos.htm)

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
Why is it that threads like this devolve into credentials and whether some one actually served? Who cares? So what? Going through tea leaves to try to analyze whether some one actually served and in what capacity does what? Not a damned thing I can see.

Hi Colonel. I agree with what you say, but they did it deliberately and worse, they called me a "fraud" (dishonest). That cannot stand.

JK

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

a simple challenge to prove that I served in the military and in war?

JK

Don't forget the MOS question too. The Army has LAN administrators with combat patches, you know.

Originally posted by Tmy
Do the vets of other wars look down on the Gulf War vets. Being that the Gulf war was so quick n easy.

No. The reason the Gulf War was so "quick n easy" is due to the years of prior training and military buildup and maintenance. It takes a lot of work to make something look effortless.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


I may be the one to blame for the initial sidetracking of this thread, because JK's comments struck me as being absurd. He has often implied that he is more of an authority on such subjects because of his claims of service. Not only did I find that silly, I found his claims sillier.

I don't think you have to have served in order to debate this topic. I agree with you, it's irrelevant. The question here is "Would you fight for your country".

My answer is yes, if called I would fight.

Those of us who have served may be able to offer some unique insight to the topic as a result of our experiences, but we are by no means the authority. Someone who has had the opportunity to live in several different countries, for example, would have a lot to bring to the table here.

My credentials as far as military service certainly don't automatically make me an expert on all subjects relating to armed conflict and statecraft. I did ROTC in college while earning a degree in Government and Law, served on active duty for just short of five years and decided to leave to pursue a civilian career. I was an Armor officer and transitioned to the Signal Corps. No "elite" training (so many officers go to Airborne school I couldn't really call it "elite"), no super-dooper security clearance, and I've never been to war.

You were in the Army Signal Corps? Now that's pretty good if I do say so myself. My favorite radio personality of all time was a fellow sufferer. Jean Shepherd was indeed WW2 Signal Corps, in radar. Just today I was listening to a show he did March 19, 1973 about the official Signal Corps Song. I'll bet you didn't even know there was an official Signal Corps Song. Well there was. It was written by the wife of the commanding general at the time he was in. They made all of them in the Corps memorize the words, stand in formation, and sing the thing all over the entire Signal Corps! It was so embarrassing it happened just once. It was written because the Signal Corps felt bad about being left behind by the Air Corps and those other sexy parts of the Army. They sure showed them!

If you want to hear the show, it's located on this page:

http://shep-archives.com/Listings/Show.php?aonly=1&date=&desc=&category=show&source=FHC&audio=.&search=Search

Scroll down till you get to the March 19, 1973 show, which is way down (about 3/4 down) the page. He covers lots of other stuff too, not just the Signal Corps Song. I listen to it on Windows Media Player.

[BrotherBluto]

Brooklyn Dodger,

Now that's funny!

I gotta say it tickles the daylights out of me to be called a "lefty." :D

Anyone should feel free to ask me about my military background. Ships I was stationed on. Overseas tours. Stateside installations. NEC's (navy version of MOS's). Whatever.

Free of charge.

I actually don't remember the numerical designations of my NEC's. I could check them at home, though.

I was an electronics technician, with NECs for Meteorological Equipment Maintenance, 3M Coordinator, EHF Satellite Communications, Navy Instructor, and one or two more I can't recall. I was also an Enlisted Air Warfare Specialist and an Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist.

I made Chief Petty Officer in eight years, and didn't move up another notch once the downsizing started. My drinking didn't help, either.

So I am an ETC(SW/AW), Retired.

I was stationed aboard the USS FORRESTAL (CV-59), a plankowner of the USS BARRY (DDG-52), and retired from aboard the USS SAIPAN (LHA-2). I was also stationed at Naval Air Station Roosevelt Roads, NAS Guantanamo Bay, and NAS Meridian.

At the beginning of my career, I attended Nuclear Power School in Orlando, but was dropped for oversleeping three times. My drinking, again.

The closest I ever came to actual combat was aboard the USS BARRY in 1994, when Hussein looked like he was going to invade Kuwait again. They sent my ship, and two other ships pell mell from Bosnia to the Persian Gulf as deterrents. That deterence was successful, and is one of the proudest moments of my career.

I've been to Bosnia twice, and once, we coordinated some air attacks. But again, we served a role as deterents.

When I was in Puerto Rico, our base was used as the base of operations for all of the services during the Grenada operation.

In Guantanamo, we were used to support many operations which remain classified.

During the Persian Gulf War in 91, I was stationed in Meridian, Mississippi. So I wasn't even indirectly involved, except to take up the slack of those who were taken away to the Gulf.

That wasn't exactly a chronological outline of my career, and I left a lof of the less interesting stuff out.

My life is an open book.

[Smalso]

Jedi Knight: "Yes we did 'decimate' the enemy on the battlefield. We eliminated every combatant in our sector of operations...'

So, what did you do, "decimate" the enemy (kill one-tenth of them) or eliminate them completely?

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I am right here, loser. I am ready to prove it. I am not going to give you my prsonal information. I will send it to Hal, he can verify it without "haters" like you knowing who I am. You say Hal doesn't believe it? Well since you are speaking for him let me fill you in on something--Hal is a commissioned field grade officer. When he sees what I will send him he will post that he was wrong in thinking that about me.

So what's it going to be. You don't trust Hal? Come on, I am ready to wager. You say you won't "spend any money". That is because you are afraid and are weak. You, like the psychics that run from the JREF challenge, are wimps.

You started it pal. I am ready to prove it. Are you ready to stand by your words or run away? Are you running from the Amazing Jedi Challenge--a simple challenge to prove that I served in the military and in war?

JK

I want you to prove this statement of yours:



Thnx Hal. You know, I appreciate your sincerity. I am going to make it a point to have more decent discussions with you.

I served in Panama in Just Cause, the Middle East and Somalia. I am Honorably discharged. I didn't have as many years in as you did but I traveled to over two dozen hostile states while I served making my service comparable to others with 30+ years in. I am also highly educated and am attracted to national security issues like you are. Most of the states our country is having problems with I have been to in and out of uniform. I know them, know the cultures--lived there.

So, what would you like to talk about?

JK


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=186798#post186798

(My bolding above)

Also, I did not say that I would not spend any money. I said that you won't make a dime off of this. I am willing to pay for a FOI act request. I would not trust any document that you provide because I have no reason to trust you.

The FOI is where the proof is. I am willing to listen to Hal. You may notice that Hal does not respond to you much anymore. I searched for a thread where he decided to stop responding to you, but it has been deleted. I think it was in one of the threads about the D.C. area sniper.

If you are looking for a compromise, I am willing to pay for the FOI act request if Hal is willing to file it. For you to win an apollogy, the statement you made above must be proven true. You must have served in Panama, and Somalia and it must be in your records.

(edited to add: I want you to prove this statement of yours:)

[Shaun from Scotland]

The bit that puzzles me is "two dozen hostile states".

Unless he has a problem with Arkansas or something, I can't think of two dozen hostile states the US Army has been in the past decade....???

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland
The bit that puzzles me is "two dozen hostile states".

Unless he has a problem with Arkansas or something, I can't think of two dozen hostile states the US Army has been in the past decade....???

Don't forget New Jersey. :)

[demon]

It`s Jedi Knight Shaun.
Premiere internet hard man.
We have all met them.
The kind of guy who in the real world sits in the corner of the pub with his mouth shut.

Save you the trouble JK. Yes I`m a good for nothing lefty but have no problems seeing through the likes of you. Met to many of you.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by demon
It`s Jedi Knight Shaun.
Premiere internet hard man.
We have all met them.
The kind of guy who in the real world sits in the corner of the pub with his mouth shut.

Save you the trouble JK. Yes I`m a good for nothing lefty but have no problems seeing through the likes of you. Met to many of you.

My mate Brian, ex 2nd Battalion Scots Guards and Tumbledown Mountain veteran refers to them as keyboard warriors. His rule of thumb is the louder the boasts the less likely they were in the Forces. Or the more likely they were in as he refers to it, " the MRU - The Messtin Repair Unit."

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


Don't forget New Jersey. :)

New Joisey? You gotta problem with New Joisey punk?:D

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


New Joisey? You gotta problem with New Joisey punk?:D

Yeah, you gotta problem wid dat? :)

(I live in New York, but work just over the border in Jersey, so I have another reason to dislike the Garden State)

[Doubt]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


New Joisey? You gotta problem with New Joisey punk?:D

I am still trying to figure out what a Scotsman with sounds like doing a Jersey accent!:D

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Doubt
You must have served in Panama, and Somalia and it must be in your records.

I did serve in both those hostile areas. That is why I mentioned it on the thread. I would not have mentioned it if I didn't serve there.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by demon
It`s Jedi Knight Shaun.
Premiere internet hard man.
We have all met them.
The kind of guy who in the real world sits in the corner of the pub with his mouth shut.

Save you the trouble JK. Yes I`m a good for nothing lefty but have no problems seeing through the likes of you. Met to many of you.

Well lefty, be convinced that you have never met anyone like me before. I don't hang out in "pubs" and I don't dance.

JK

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Doubt


I am still trying to figure out what a Scotsman with sounds like doing a Jersey accent!:D

Like a moose that's having its antlers set on fire and being battered out with a flip-flop

[RandFan]

If LukeT is a lefty then I want to be one also.

JK, I have gained a degree of respect for you (in an infamous sort of way). You have managed to respond to most challenges (the ones that I have noticed) with some degree of plausibility. Though I must say that I find much of your boasts to ring false. However, I'm guessing that there is some truth to what you say. I don't know why it is so important to seek money to defend yourself. Why can't you just provide the proof? For the record I can't categorically declare you a fraud. But, based upon the evidence I would have to say that I just don't personally believe most of what you claim as to your education or military career. Again I do suspect that it is in part true. The question is how much of it is true?

However I might be persuaded to take the challenge if you will cite again specifically the details of your education, rank and service record. Also, that you state clearly the terms and conditions of the challenge.

Woo-woo's don't like to state ahead of time the terms and conditions whereas people like James Randi and those on the up and up always state the terms and conditions.

FTR, I voted for Regan, Bush Sr., Dole, Bush Jr. Actively campaigned for Richard Jensen and Orin Hatch (both republicans). I support the presidents actions in the Middle east, I believe in limited government and I am a capitalist though I do support I consider myself a libertarian (small "l") though a bastard one at that since I support minimum wage and some regulation and social programs (public schools, social security, etc.) However I would be happy if we could find better alternatives. So, there is something there to make me a lefty.

So how bout it JK? Will you give us the terms and conditions and re-state the pertinent info?

Thanks,

RandFan

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by RandFan
If LukeT is a lefty then I want to be one also.

JK, I have gained a degree of respect for you (in an infamous sort of way). You have managed to respond to most challenges (the ones that I have noticed) with some degree of plausibility. Though I must say that I find much of your boasts to ring false. However, I'm guessing that there is some truth to what you say. I don't know why it is so important to seek money to defend yourself. Why can't you just provide the proof? For the record I can't categorically declare you a fraud. But, based upon the evidence I would have to say that I just don't personally believe most of what you claim as to your education or military career. Again I do suspect that it is in part true. The question is how much of it is true?

However I might be persuaded to take the challenge if you will cite again specifically the details of your education, rank and service record. Also, that you state clearly the terms and conditions of the challenge.

Woo-woo's don't like to state ahead of time the terms and conditions whereas people like James Randi and those on the up and up always state the terms and conditions.

FTR, I voted for Regan, Bush Sr., Dole, Bush Jr. Actively campaigned for Richard Jensen and Orin Hatch (both republicans). I support the presidents actions in the Middle east, I believe in limited government and I am a capitalist though I do support I consider myself a libertarian (small "l") though a bastard one at that since I support minimum wage and some regulation and social programs (public schools, social security, etc.) However I would be happy if we could find better alternatives. So, there is something there to make me a lefty.

So how bout it JK? Will you give us the terms and conditions and re-state the pertinent info?

Thanks,

RandFan

Terms are simple. I said I served in the army and in war--they said I was a "fraud" lol. I will provide proof I served in the army and served in war to Hal Bidlack. Hal will not disclose my identity to anyone, ever. When Hal confirms it, he simply posts here that he saw the evidence and I win the challenge. That simple. Of course, the wager level would have be worthy of me wasting my time. After all, they called me a "fraud".

JK

This is stupid.

JK, you could provide a mountain of paperwork and service records of military service. But your credibility on here is so shot that most people would probably assume they are someone else's records.

You don't talk, walk or chew gum like an ex-military person, and your knowledge of military "doings" is patchy.

I suppose what you learn here from genuine military people will aid you in any future charades you play elsewhere. I've seen it before.

I've been called a "lefty" before. Over at the Stormfront web site. :)

Maybe they'll buy your military stories. But I bet they would chew you up worse than we do.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT
This is stupid.

JK, you could provide a mountain of paperwork and service records of military service. But your credibility on here is so shot that most people would probably assume they are someone else's records.

Hmmm....weaseling out, huh. So it goes from I am a "fraud" to "I can provide "mountains" of evidence", but my "credibility" is "so shot" here that people would "assume" they were someone else's records lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

I just figured out where all this "fraud" nonsense is coming from lol. You guys are treating me like a psychic. It just dawned on me! This is really fascinating--the integration of anti-psychic hysteria with a common announcement like my military service would be.

What's the matter, not many psychics testing lately lol????

JK

There is a much easier way to demonstrate you were in the military. State your MOS and duty stations and when you were there. Just like I did earlier in this topic.

Anyone who has a similar background could ask you a few simple questions in as near "real time" as possible in this format to determine in very quick order whether you are full of crap.

edited to add: there are some questions which can't be answered by reading someone else's records or a book. Only actual experience will provide the correct response.

Do it now, Jedi. Don't bother trying to read up on it. It won't help you.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Are we still wasting bandwidth on this subject?

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
Are we still wasting bandwidth on this subject?

Don't worry. We paid the bill. :D

[The Fool]

Guys , its probably better to leave the troll alone. His claims of military service have long been realised to be childish fantasies. I don't care if he was a cook or a clerk or a truck driver in the Army, I much prefer to laugh at his Martian ancestry theories or his absolute lack of understanding of basic physics (the famous gravity farce).

This Idiot is just another forum troll, background noise. Let us just be amused at what he does but not waste too much time flogging a long dead horse looking for some sort of challange. He is just too easy.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by The Fool
Guys , its probably better to leave the troll alone. His claims of military service have long been realised to be childish fantasies. I don't care if he was a cook or a clerk or a truck driver in the Army, I much prefer to laugh at his Martian ancestry theories or his absolute lack of understanding of basic physics (the famous gravity farce).

This Idiot is just another forum troll, background noise. Let us just be amused at what he does but not waste too much time flogging a long dead horse looking for some sort of challange. He is just too easy.

You are just plain evil. Bad karma.

JK

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You are just plain evil. Bad karma.

JK
So that explains the horns and tail!

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Terms are simple. I said I served in the army and in war--they said I was a "fraud" lol. I will provide proof I served in the army and served in war to Hal Bidlack. Hal will not disclose my identity to anyone, ever. When Hal confirms it, he simply posts here that he saw the evidence and I win the challenge. That simple. Of course, the wager level would have be worthy of me wasting my time. After all, they called me a "fraud".

JK

I wouldn't be suprised if you were a 12B or even a junior 11 bang-bang, but you make yourself out to be Rambo on these forums. Put up or shut up. We're not paying.

You, just like everyone else, should be free to voice your opinions on these forums. You don't need to spout your ridiculous bravado. I seriously doubt that you were anything more than an EM with a 12B or maybe a 11B MOS--if that.

By the way--from your comments I take it that you were a combat engineer in Panama. That would mean that you were in the 82nd. Might you be so good as to identify the 82nd's engineer element in that operation? I only ask because I have contacts in the G-1 shop at Bragg. :)

Hope you enjoyed your snow day kiddo.

[BrotherBluto]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

Don't change the subject. Let's wager. I know who I am and what honorable things I have done for my country in uniform--are you ready to stand up to your claim that I never served?

Not changing the subject, just pointing out other facets of it. What's the matter--can't handle too much at once?

If you are not, let me know and then apologize, or stand with some backbone and let's wager.

JK

I won't apologize to you. If you were in the military, your comments disgrace all of us who have served. If you weren't, you are a total fraud.

In any event. You are, in my humble opinion, a very sad and pitiful nutter.

[Starshark]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


Not changing the subject, just pointing out other facets of it. What's the matter--can't handle too much at once?



I won't apologize to you. If you were in the military, your comments disgrace all of us who have served. If you weren't, you are a total fraud.

In any event. You are, in my humble opinion, a very sad and pitiful nutter.

Lay of JK, BB. I got some friends of mine to check his story, and it largely checks out (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13663).

[Starshark]

Originally posted by LukeT
I never really answered the original question of this topic, so let me say now that I would fight for my country. But as a veteran of 20 years, you guys already knew that.

If the motive behind the question was "Would you fight in the upcoming war with Iraq for your country?" then I would also answer in the affirmative.

I know my country has been wrong in the past. But I believe it has been right a heck of a lot more often.

I can't base my opinion on the rightness or wrongness of specific good or bad decisions made in the past. I have to take the whole.

When I was on active duty, and facing the possibility of having to actually kill other human beings, lets face it, you tend to grasp onto anything that tells you it is okay to kill other human beings, and ignore anything that tells you it is wrong to kill other human beings. And that is a form of self-brainwashing. I know. But if you weren't there, you can't understand. On some level, every fighting man goes through that struggle.

No flag-burning, storefront window breaking, whining little snot parading through our streets in a war protest will ever come close to the personal anguish a military man feels over the death of a civilian caused by our nation's policies or a war action.

If I thought my country had done more wrong than good, I certainly wouldn't have served 20 years.

I was proud of my country, and I still am. And I would fight for it any time, gladly. (emphasis mine)

So, are you saying that someone who serves with the military is better than a peace protestor because they feel anguish for a dead civilian? What kind of logic is that? Toss the ad-homs around all you want, but at the end of the day, the person who fights for non-violent solutions is more noble than the one who uses violence.

[ntech]

Originally posted by Starshark
(emphasis mine)

So, are you saying that someone who serves with the military is better than a peace protestor because they feel anguish for a dead civilian? What kind of logic is that? Toss the ad-homs around all you want, but at the end of the day, the person who fights for non-violent solutions is more noble than the one who uses violence.

There are times of no choice when we need the brave to defend this country. If everyone thought like the ones you feel are so noble then those that were not put to death 60 years ago would be speaking German and praising hitler. Today there are people that cannot be reasoned with and are working hard to inflict terror. We should be grateful for our soldiers.

[Starshark]

Originally posted by ntech


There are times of no choice when we need the brave to defend this country. If everyone thought like the ones you feel are so noble then those that were not put to death 60 years ago would be speaking German and praising hitler. Today there are people that cannot be reasoned with and are working hard to inflict terror. We should be grateful for our soldiers.

That is true. There are times when war is required. But Iraq isn't one of them.

[subgenius]

This particular issue is one where it should be recognized that you can have an opinion on either way and still be a good and reasonable person.
It is not warmonger vs. traitor, and it doesn't help to characterize it that way.

[subgenius]

I notice that the poll indicates overwhelming support for "Depends, please specify", which given the generic nature of the question would seem to be the appropriate response.
Can we agree on that?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Terms are simple. I said I served in the army and in war--they said I was a "fraud" lol. I will provide proof I served in the army and served in war to Hal Bidlack. Sounds like back tracking to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you give specifics about conflicts and operations? Didn't you give a specific number of conflicts that you were engaged in? How can proof that you served int the army substantiate ALL of your claims?

Hal will not disclose my identity to anyone, ever. When Hal confirms it, he simply posts here that he saw the evidence and I win the challenge. That simple. Of course, the wager level would have be worthy of me wasting my time. After all, they called me a "fraud". Well JK, I have never served but if I had to judge the quality of info that Luke and others have provided and the quality of your info I would have to side with them. Again, I have not served so I am a poor judge. But they seem to have you on a number of points. For instance, Luke makes a good argument. How would Hal know it is you? If I sent you a file on me complete with photo, address, phone number social security and tons of other data, how would you know that it is me?

Next, why are you unwilling to respond to LukeT's query and provide the same information that he has? Others have posted this same info, why the hesitation?

Your cagy responses seem to indicate that your story is not completely true. JK, we have all probably dealt with the guy that boasts of being a SEAL, Airborne Ranger, Green Barret, FBI, CIA or some other position or accomplishment. Who knows just enough to get by but that something was "wrong" with the story and eventually we find out that it was all false. This is what your story sounds like to me. Of course I never served. I love watching cable programs about the military like mail call and all the "wings" series and other but just don't know enough to know for sure.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


I wouldn't be suprised if you were a 12B or even a junior 11 bang-bang, but you make yourself out to be Rambo on these forums. Put up or shut up. We're not paying.

You, just like everyone else, should be free to voice your opinions on these forums. You don't need to spout your ridiculous bravado. I seriously doubt that you were anything more than an EM with a 12B or maybe a 11B MOS--if that.

By the way--from your comments I take it that you were a combat engineer in Panama. That would mean that you were in the 82nd. Might you be so good as to identify the 82nd's engineer element in that operation? I only ask because I have contacts in the G-1 shop at Bragg. :)

Hope you enjoyed your snow day kiddo.

Listen to your jealous rant. What "bravado" and "Ramboism" have I spoken of? I said I served in the army and served in war--do people become Rambos expressing "bravado" for merely stating that they served?

If some guy said he graduated from college, does he become a "Rambo" expressing "bravado" for saying he did? No.

Then why do soldiers express "Ramboism" and "bravado" with you when they mentioned they served? Help me out here--it has to be a form of envy, right? If you were involved in history, is mentioning it "bravado"? If I simply spoke of my college education, would you say that I was expressing "Ramboism" and "bravado"? No, I do not think that you would. That is why you consulted with your "contacts" at Fort Bragg. Do those "contacts" help you see better than using glasses? lol.

*yawn*....are you talking about those 82nd Combat Engineers with the Sheridans? Yeah, that is who you are talking about. The ones who on H-Hour positioned over Ancon Hill and fired into La Commandancia. There was only one platoon of those guys assigned for the operation. They did a great job.

No, I wasn't in the 82nd. They were too low speed, high drag for me. Tell your "contacts" at Bragg I said hello. I bet that you feel all "cool" and "special" with all those "contacts" that you have, and you have the audacity to say I am expressing "bravado" lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by RandFan
Sounds like back tracking to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you give specifics about conflicts and operations? Didn't you give a specific number of conflicts that you were engaged in? How can proof that you served int the army substantiate ALL of your claims?

Well JK, I have never served but if I had to judge the quality of info that Luke and others have provided and the quality of your info I would have to side with them. Again, I have not served so I am a poor judge. But they seem to have you on a number of points. For instance, Luke makes a good argument. How would Hal know it is you? If I sent you a file on me complete with photo, address, phone number social security and tons of other data, how would you know that it is me?

Next, why are you unwilling to respond to LukeT's query and provide the same information that he has? Others have posted this same info, why the hesitation?

Your cagy responses seem to indicate that your story is not completely true. JK, we have all probably dealt with the guy that boasts of being a SEAL, Airborne Ranger, Green Barret, FBI, CIA or some other position or accomplishment. Who knows just enough to get by but that something was "wrong" with the story and eventually we find out that it was all false. This is what your story sounds like to me. Of course I never served. I love watching cable programs about the military like mail call and all the "wings" series and other but just don't know enough to know for sure.

I am not a very good swimmer so I could never be a seal and I don't even know any beret guys..well maybe a handful. All my swim tests that I took I passed by the skin of my teeth. I don't know what a CIA is and as far as the FBI goes I would never be a good police officer. I admit it. The first time a criminal called me a pig, the city I worked for would be sued for multi-millions by criminal apologists because I would rip the criminal's arms out of his sockets.

Now as for your "siding" with others based upon "quality" information, I have provided no information for you to judge the "quality" of. I said I served and I went to war. Other than that, there is no "information", but who knows--maybe a psychic will show up and give me a remote reading lol.

JK

[thaiboxerken]

1) Would you, fight for your country?

I did my 10 years of military service, I'm out now. I'd only fight if our country was being threatened today.

2) Would you, only do the above if your own country was actually being threatened?

I guess I answered this already.

3) Would you, volunteer to do any of the above?

Only if the country was truly threatened.

4) Do you think being told you have to go to war, is wrong?

Yes, unless the person volunteered for the military... forcing people to fight for freedom defeats the purpose.

5) Are you proud, of your country, or indifferent?

Indifferent. I'd rather not live anywhere else, but the USA could use lots of improvement.

6) What do you think, when your told, you, have to go to another country to fight there wars for them?

I think we should butt out of other wars that don't have our countries interests at hand.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

If Japan didn't want to be nuked, why did they demand to be?
JK

Did Japan have any clue as to the power of an atom bomb, or even the existence of one?

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Did Japan have any clue as to the power of an atom bomb, or even the existence of one?

That's an interesting question. It's my understanding that they did. They were getting German help in developing their own A-bomb.

[Kimpatsu]

One Japanese national who worked on the Japanese A-bomb project was Akio Morita, who later founded the Sony Corporation.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Did Japan have any clue as to the power of an atom bomb, or even the existence of one?

The Japanese had their own program and were just months away from finishing it. They knew all about nuclear technology and nuclear theory.

JK

Originally posted by Starshark


Lay of JK, BB. I got some friends of mine to check his story, and it largely checks out (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13663).

:D

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken


Did Japan have any clue as to the power of an atom bomb, or even the existence of one?

Funny that....

I heard the US contacted the Japanese High Command and informed them they'd be nuked. They didn't believe it.

After Hiroshima the US contacted them again and told them to surrender or get hit again. They refused. Even after Hiroshima, they refused.

Nagasaki was hit. Again the US contacted Japan and said that the next one was going to be dropped on Tokyo itself.....they surrendered only then.

And...BTW, there was no other bomb then in existence.

-z

Originally posted by Starshark
(emphasis mine)

So, are you saying that someone who serves with the military is better than a peace protestor because they feel anguish for a dead civilian? What kind of logic is that? Toss the ad-homs around all you want, but at the end of the day, the person who fights for non-violent solutions is more noble than the one who uses violence.

:(


The problem I have with protesters is that they often try to attribute blame for the horrors of war on the wrong doorstep. Mainly, the United States.

And they often attribute more deaths than actually occurred onto our doorstep.

And they often attribute deaths which were not our fault onto our doorstep.

Iraq? Some have tried to lay the blame for the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of deaths in Iraq since the Gulf War on U.S. sanctions. That is a load of crap.

originally posted by subgenius
This particular issue is one where it should be recognized that you can have an opinion on either way and still be a good and reasonable person.
It is not warmonger vs. traitor, and it doesn't help to characterize it that way.

I don't think I have ever called a war protester a traitor. In fact, I have defended them against charges of cowardice. A search of my posts in the last couple of weeks will show that. I believe if you search for Starshark's topic about whether our military is incompetent you will see.

I think a small core of people who do not have our nation's best interests at heart are influencing a large group of people who do. I believe the majority of the anti-war movement is being lied to, misinformed and misled as much as they believe our country is by our government.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Now as for your "siding" with others based upon "quality" information, I have provided no information for you to judge the "quality" of. I said I served and I went to war. Other than that, there is no "information", ... Well that is not quite true now is it. You had a discussion about munitions and explosives awhile back. You have also given information on this thread about certain units. So yes, you have given information. More importantly though you do not address my main contention that you could fake the info you sent to Hal and why you won't respond as LukeT wants you to?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
I am not a very good swimmer so I could never be a seal and I don't even know any beret guys..well maybe a handful. All my swim tests that I took I passed by the skin of my teeth. I don't know what a CIA is and as far as the FBI goes I would never be a good police officer. The CIA. CIA (http://www.cia.gov/) stands for Central Intelligence Agency (http://www.cia.gov/). I did not suggest that you had done any of those things. I simply pointed out that your boasts are familiar to us. IIRC you have made a number of claims beyond the fact that you were in the army and went to war. Would you like someone to go through all of the threads and pick out all of your claims? I don't mean that as a threat. If it would help I or someone with more time on their hands could do it. Just let us know and we will detail your "accomplishments".

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Are we STILL doing this?

[subgenius]

Britain Admits That Much of Its Report on Iraq Came From Magazines
By SARAH LYALL


LONDON, Feb. 7 — The British government admitted today that large sections of its most recent report on Iraq, praised by Secretary of State Colin L. Powell as "a fine paper" in his speech to the United Nations on Wednesday, had been lifted from magazines and academic journals.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/08/i.../08BRIT.html?th
--------------

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Kept it from being classified.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by RandFan
Well that is not quite true now is it. You had a discussion about munitions and explosives awhile back. You have also given information on this thread about certain units. So yes, you have given information. More importantly though you do not address my main contention that you could fake the info you sent to Hal and why you won't respond as LukeT wants you to?

You have been watching too many movies or reading too many conspiracy theories. You can't fake RSSI orders issued by a military records branch. If you tried, you would be caught and subject to felony prosecution. You simply do not understand how the system works.

All military schools, for example, use rosters and sequence designators that are different for each cycle and verifiable. They cannot be "faked". All offical military orders can be verified. All of it. You must be thinking about the record keeping in the Civil War lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by RandFan
The CIA. CIA (http://www.cia.gov/) stands for Central Intelligence Agency (http://www.cia.gov/). I did not suggest that you had done any of those things. I simply pointed out that your boasts are familiar to us. IIRC you have made a number of claims beyond the fact that you were in the army and went to war. Would you like someone to go through all of the threads and pick out all of your claims? I don't mean that as a threat. If it would help I or someone with more time on their hands could do it. Just let us know and we will detail your "accomplishments".

Sure, link them. I have had lengthy discussions about the military where folks like you are now are trying to find every minute detail of military service lol. It has always ended up the same. I may have mentioned one of my Mos's in another thread. I may not have.

The point is that I have said I served in the Army and served in war. Since I also went to college and did not just say I went to college, there is a whole bunch of penis envy going on. There is no reason to be envious of me. Anyone could do what I did if they had the guts and signed up and were motivated.

JK

[crackmonkey]

Randfan's right. I remember a thread talking about Iraqi landmines where JK implied that he was a CIA spec ops guy. I don't remember the specifics, but he made it abundantly clear that he was some kind of spook weapons expert. He subsequently made numerous basic errors regarding weapons and military gear - from VX agents to binoculars... his supposed specialty. I'm sure that if you dug up all of his posts regarding his 007 derring-do and Brave Deeds That Must Remain Unheralded you will find a crapload of contradictions. Then again, who really cares? It's apparent that the guy has some need to feed this fantasy, and I admit that it's amusing. Incomprehensible and sad, but amusing.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
Are we STILL doing this?

It is penis envy--that is why they attack me. I really don't think anything of the fact that I served around the world. I did it and it was no big deal to me. But to the JREF "kids" it is a big deal lol. Sort of like how they deal with psychics--you are a "fraud" but we dare don't let you prove it. The house of cards would come crashing down then lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Randfan's right. I remember a thread talking about Iraqi landmines where JK implied that he was a CIA spec ops guy. I don't remember the specifics, but he made it abundantly clear that he was some kind of spook weapons expert. He subsequently made numerous basic errors regarding weapons and military gear - from VX agents to binoculars... his supposed specialty. I'm sure that if you dug up all of his posts regarding his 007 derring-do and Brave Deeds That Must Remain Unheralded you will find a crapload of contradictions. Then again, who really cares? It's apparent that the guy has some need to feed this fantasy, and I admit that it's amusing. Incomprehensible and sad, but amusing.

I never implied any such thing, monkey. We discussed landmines, but I in no way, shape or form ever said I worked for your "spec ops" or whatever it is you are describing. Just wanted to clear up your delusional interpretation of what I posted.

JK

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight

(snip)
Listen to your jealous rant. What "bravado" and "Ramboism" have I spoken of?
(snip)
JK

Maybe they're referring to this:

Absolutely and without hesitation, using all tools, training and resources at my disposal, and without mercy.

Or this:

When I was told I was very excited to be going off to defend the United States. I was excited because all the men who were with me were excited. We enjoyed defending our country from the perversion.

(perversion?)

Or this:

When your country is constantly being slapped across the face, eventually something has to be done to stop the slapping. The US military is very proficient at stopping the slapping. It has nothing to do with "enjoying" the hunt, but the glorious victories on the battlefields to which history is made as the forces of freedom destroy perversion wherever it is encountered globally.

My conscience rests solely with the wellbeing of my country. Nothing else matters.

Or this:

Oh, so you are saying that there is no evidence about Iraq and the weapons of mass destruction programs in that country? Stay tuned pacifist, because next week a lot of leftists are going to have egg on their faces.

By the way, are you a communist?

Or this:

We always used the rules of engagement. When enemy soldiers fired at us, we eliminated them with brilliant efficiency.

Or this:

Basic training is easy and nothing to be afraid of.

Or this:

I served in Panama for operation Just Cause, the 1st Persian Gulf War and Somalia. I am a completely indoctrinated right-wing arch-conservative hawk, just so you know. The only thing that matters to me is my country. I also possess a very clear and gifted intellect for political strategy, especially in the observation of enemy nation-states.

(I hate to be the one to tell you this, but being 'very specially abled' is not the same as having a 'gifted intellect')

Or this:

There is nothing to be jealous of, really. Anyone here can do what I did in the military. If you are under 35 (I think that is the cutoff age for enlistment), go to your local recruitment office and sign up.

It is all on you and that is how the military deals with it. You can do anything you want. You just need to have the guts to finish it.


Or this:

You weren't even on active duty? Why are you even talking to me?

Or this:

This is the gist of the problem and please, keep piling it on. The only thing I have said about my service is that I served in the army and served in war. I also said that I engaged the enemy directly and the men I worked with wiped them out, which is 100% true.

Now, you and your leftist pal Doubt and his ultra leftist pal LukeT can disagree with that because I have not provided any of Mos's, etc, nor have I provided information on the units I served with and that is fine because I have no intention of doing so. I said that long before you all began attacking me for my honorable service to my country.

Now, if you idiots would like to put your money where your mouths are, I would be more than pleased to prove it and get paid at the same time. Just think of it as an Amazing Jedi Challenge. I am challenging your claims and the claims of other leftists here that I am a "fraud". Ready to bust into that bank account, jackass, or are you a spineless name-calling troll with no backbone?

Or this:

Yes, we did "decimate" the enemy on the battlefield. We eliminated every combatant in our sector of operations during the war I was discussing.

Now, since you are your pal LukeT say I am a "fraud", step up with some backbone and challenge me with a wager on it. Don't be a spineless leftist. You guys said I am a fraud. I can prove I am not. Do you have the guts to stand by your claim against me, or is your reputation here simply cannon-fodder now?


(Cannon fodder? You need to get your friends to read your posts before you hit submit. Put a brazil nut between their butt cheeks before they start reading. If the nut cracks, you need to edit before you submit).

Or this:

If you are so sure about my service, lefty, you wouldn't have a problem putting a wager on it. Come on loser, step up and show some backbone. I am ready to prove it. You have called me out.

Care to accept the Amazing Jedi Challenge? You won't run away now like the psychics who run away from the Amazing JREF challenge, will you?

Get you and your lefty pal Brother Bluto to come up with some type of wager. You called me out--let's finish it. I will even provide the information directly to Hal Bidlack, your fellow JREF pal. I trust Hal because he is an honorable soldier like me, and frankly, when Hal sees it he is going to say "wow, the leftists Brother Bluto and LukeT should have never challenged Jedi".

Come on Lukey boy, bring it on!


Or this:

No, this thread is about "would you serve your country". I posted that I did serve and I served in war. LukeT called me a "fraud". You piled on. Now all I am asking for is the chance to prove what I said is true, but you have to wager something. I am not going to just hand over the information to Hal without something to make it worth my while.

Are you retreating now or what? Let me know so I don't have to waste anymore of my time with your sorry ass, loser.

Just as I thought--a spineless coward. Come on, you and LukeT said my military service didn't exist and I was a "fraud". Are you going to back up those BS claims against me or run away like the name-calling troll that you are?

Don't change the subject. Let's wager. I know who I am and what honorable things I have done for my country in uniform--are you ready to stand up to your claim that I never served?

If you are not, let me know and then apologize, or stand with some backbone and let's wager.


("and the new word for this week, boys and girls, is 'wager'. Can you say 'wager'?")

Or this:

No, all war is duty, honor, sacrifice. No war veteran looks down at any other war veteran regardless of what the conflict was.

(so why do all the war vets in this forum look down on you? Oh, yeah, that's right...)

Or this:

I am right here, loser. I am ready to prove it. I am not going to give you my prsonal information. I will send it to Hal, he can verify it without "haters" like you knowing who I am. You say Hal doesn't believe it? Well since you are speaking for him let me fill you in on something--Hal is a commissioned field grade officer. When he sees what I will send him he will post that he was wrong in thinking that about me.

So what's it going to be. You don't trust Hal? Come on, I am ready to wager. You say you won't "spend any money". That is because you are afraid and are weak. You, like the psychics that run from the JREF challenge, are wimps.

You started it pal. I am ready to prove it. Are you ready to stand by your words or run away? Are you running from the Amazing Jedi Challenge--a simple challenge to prove that I served in the military and in war?


Would that be enough examples for you? I can probably find a couple more on this thread alone, and I haven't even started looking at your other posts. You are a liar. You are all piss and wind. You are so full of hot air that Richard Branson could have had his world record if he only thought to use you as his method of lift.

Here's an easy way to prove your challenge. Come up with an amusing anecdote while on duty, during a theatre of war. You don't have to give an anecdote that involves you directly. It could be a funny story like the time the mess hall cook served horse to the unpopular soldier in the squad (although, again, the story doesn't have to involve you). Give approximate dates. Exact isn't necessary.

When you've done that, give us the names of three people who were in your squad/corps/division whatever. They do not have to be people who know you. All they have to do is give third party verification of your story. Don't bother getting your school-friends to pretend to be your 'war buddies'. Also don't bother finding an anecdote on the 'net. Any anecdote published on the 'net is void. Ditto in military magazines, etc.

Any other vets might like to back me up by giving JK an example of a war story. Normally, I wouldn't need to give a so-called vet an example, but in JK's case I think he needs a rough idea of what one looks like.

[Starshark]

Originally posted by LukeT


:(


The problem I have with protesters is that they often try to attribute blame for the horrors of war on the wrong doorstep. Mainly, the United States.

And they often attribute more deaths than actually occurred onto our doorstep.

And they often attribute deaths which were not our fault onto our doorstep.

Iraq? Some have tried to lay the blame for the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of deaths in Iraq since the Gulf War on U.S. sanctions. That is a load of crap.



I don't think I have ever called a war protester a traitor. In fact, I have defended them against charges of cowardice. A search of my posts in the last couple of weeks will show that. I believe if you search for Starshark's topic about whether our military is incompetent you will see.

I think a small core of people who do not have our nation's best interests at heart are influencing a large group of people who do. I believe the majority of the anti-war movement is being lied to, misinformed and misled as much as they believe our country is by our government.

You're right about the deaths of thousands in Iraq not being the fault of US sanctions. They're UN sanctions. :D

Originally posted by Starshark


You're right about the deaths of thousands in Iraq not being the fault of US sanctions. They're UN sanctions. :D

The deaths are not the fault of UN sanctions either.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
It is penis envy
Rubbish. It's frustration at your arrogance. Everytime you say something demonstrably false, can I have a dollar? You'd go bankrupt in a week.

Originally posted by Starshark


Any other vets might like to back me up by giving JK an example of a war story. Normally, I wouldn't need to give a so-called vet an example, but in JK's case I think he needs a rough idea of what one looks like.

I've posted plenty of sea stories on this forum.

[ntech]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Rubbish. It's frustration at your arrogance. Everytime you say something demonstrably false, can I have a dollar? You'd go bankrupt in a week.



And he's a millionaire.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by ntech
And he's a millionaire.

lol

JK

Jedi as member of elite unit. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=149328#post149328)

To be a member of the elite units I was in when I served you had to be a seasoned soldier for years to do the job.


Jedi as macho man. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=139314#post139314)

I have had my ass out there more than once. I have seen war up close and personal.



Jedi receives weapons training. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=152973#post152973)

I went to school at one time to learn about those weapons and their effects.



Jedi as Rambo. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=249361#post249361)

If I showed you a picture of me when I was rockin on with my rucksack and told you that it weighed 125 pounds, someone would joke about it as well.

...

I don't know what the big stink is from men who are afraid to serve. There is nothing to it. Sure. some of your friends will get shot through the chest and get killed, but overall you have a 96% chance of going to war and making it out alive. It really isn't a big deal. You aren't there by yourself and everyone is in the box together.

...

It is a biased outlook I have because I did serve and went to war. The best friends I ever made in my life were in the military and many of my friends are now field-grade officers in Special Forces, company first sergeants, command sergeant majors, etc. Commissioned officers I served with at the battalion/brigade level are now General Officers in command of theatres.

...

Also, you have to keep in mind that I didn't serve when there was a draft. I volunteered from Day 1. If there was a draft before I volunteered I would have went because to not do so would be to disgrace my family. My oldest brother was a recon marine in Vietnam. My father was a military intelligence officer/interrogator during World War II. My uncle was a B-24 bomber pilot in England during World War II (he also served in Korea annd Vietnam too). My dad would have kicked my ass for not going if the country called on me to defend it. That is the type of family I was raised in.

Again, I wasn't under the pressure of the draft. When I went to war the first time, I had already served for a time and didn't think I would ever go to war. One Saturday morning I was having some beers with some of my pals and the phones rang and the next thing I knew I was on a plane. That is how it happened for me. After the first combat deployment the follow-on operations were easier. That is why I think for a man to fear war or fear serving is unnatural. The peacetime army is less fun than the wartime army. I did I everything I could to deploy around the world because that is where the excitement came in.

In the same post, Jedi the hypocrite:


Just tell me that your ass was there, tell me the unit, the place and that is all you will ever have to say to me.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Starshark


Maybe they're referring to this:



Or this:



(perversion?)

Or this:



Or this:



Or this:



Or this:



Or this:



(I hate to be the one to tell you this, but being 'very specially abled' is not the same as having a 'gifted intellect')

Or this:



Or this:



Or this:



Or this:



(Cannon fodder? You need to get your friends to read your posts before you hit submit. Put a brazil nut between their butt cheeks before they start reading. If the nut cracks, you need to edit before you submit).

Or this:



Or this:





("and the new word for this week, boys and girls, is 'wager'. Can you say 'wager'?")

Or this:



(so why do all the war vets in this forum look down on you? Oh, yeah, that's right...)

Or this:




Would that be enough examples for you? I can probably find a couple more on this thread alone, and I haven't even started looking at your other posts. You are a liar. You are all piss and wind. You are so full of hot air that Richard Branson could have had his world record if he only thought to use you as his method of lift.

Here's an easy way to prove your challenge. Come up with an amusing anecdote while on duty, during a theatre of war. You don't have to give an anecdote that involves you directly. It could be a funny story like the time the mess hall cook served horse to the unpopular soldier in the squad (although, again, the story doesn't have to involve you). Give approximate dates. Exact isn't necessary.

When you've done that, give us the names of three people who were in your squad/corps/division whatever. They do not have to be people who know you. All they have to do is give third party verification of your story. Don't bother getting your school-friends to pretend to be your 'war buddies'. Also don't bother finding an anecdote on the 'net. Any anecdote published on the 'net is void. Ditto in military magazines, etc.

Any other vets might like to back me up by giving JK an example of a war story. Normally, I wouldn't need to give a so-called vet an example, but in JK's case I think he needs a rough idea of what one looks like.

You admire me. Admit it. You worship the very ground I walk on. All those posts that you linked say nothing more than how I can't wait for the heroic capitalist people's army of the United States to go into Iraq and wipe out all the communists and fascists.

If it brings you to tears that I just brought the topic up, wait until the glorious US Army rocks Iraq and spits in the face of the commie UN.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT
Jedi as member of elite unit. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=149328#post149328)




Jedi as macho man. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=139314#post139314)





Jedi receives weapons training. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=152973#post152973)





Jedi as Rambo. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=249361#post249361)



In the same post, Jedi the hypocrite:



lol, I simply rule.

J "Rambo" K

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
lol, I simply rule.
You cannot, however, punctuate. Shouldn't that be "I rule simply", because as we all know, you're a simple kind of guy... :cool:

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by BrotherBluto


I wouldn't be suprised if you were a 12B or even a junior 11 bang-bang, but you make yourself out to be Rambo on these forums. Put up or shut up. We're not paying.

You, just like everyone else, should be free to voice your opinions on these forums. You don't need to spout your ridiculous bravado. I seriously doubt that you were anything more than an EM with a 12B or maybe a 11B MOS--if that.

By the way--from your comments I take it that you were a combat engineer in Panama. That would mean that you were in the 82nd. Might you be so good as to identify the 82nd's engineer element in that operation? I only ask because I have contacts in the G-1 shop at Bragg. :)

Hope you enjoyed your snow day kiddo.

Hey BrotherBluto, don't run away because I answered your question 100% correctly lol. Want to know where those 82nd cherries were held up before the invasion kicked off? You can even verify it with your cherry "contacts" in the Fort Bragg G-1 baby. I may even be able to remember the day they got in theatre. Your cherry "contacts" at the Bragg G-1 probably don't even know that lol.

But look, you are invited back to the debate even though you know I am right. Come back. I won't pick on you lol.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

You cannot, however, punctuate. Shouldn't that be "I rule simply", because as we all know, you're a simple kind of guy... :cool:

You mean simply "awesome".

JK

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You admire me. Admit it. You worship the very ground I walk on. All those posts that you linked say nothing more than how I can't wait for the heroic capitalist people's army of the United States to go into Iraq and wipe out all the communists and fascists.

If it brings you to tears that I just brought the topic up, wait until the glorious US Army rocks Iraq and spits in the face of the commie UN.

JK

Still haven't answered the challenge. Coward.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Starshark


Still haven't answered the challenge. Coward.

What challenge?

JK

Jedi the fearless. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=130653#post130653)

My opinions are strong on this subject because I have fed these people with my own two hands for long periods and I also tried to protect them. Some of my good friends that went with me were killed by these people.

What you have to understand about that region, and I infiltrated it extensively and fearlessly, is that the sub-continent has no understanding of the value of a written constitution.

...

Think about that because when I was in an elite unit over there that is what happened to us.





Jedi lets it all hang out! (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=187009#post187009)

How about this--how about I tell you that I was one of the best soldiers of my generation. What if I said my expertise included extensive knowledge with explosives, bridges, obstacles (defenses), etc. etc. These are some military issues I am proficient with. I am very proficient with many others. But since you claim to have had some 12B training, perhaps we could clear the air and talk about some 12B stuff.

It has been awhile but where would you like to start? Want to talk about the relative effectiveness of explosives? M2 detonators? Shaped charges, cratering charges, ring-mains, cutting and test burning time-fuse, dual-initiating systems? Hey, I love 12B topics. Or maybe you would like to talk about military intelligence, or firing a stinger missile, or driving an M1A1 Abrams Tank, or flying an A-10 Tankbuster, or even alien spaceships? I am all for it. Name the military topic. lalala lalala lala....dust initiators, road craters, fuel-air explosives, abatise, lala lala lalala..

...

I did the nuclear/bio/chem warfare school stint. It was pretty cool. Want to talk about how Anthrax is made? Sarin? VX? Mustard?

...

Are you manager of classified information? You keep bringing it up. I don't know any classfied information. I do watch babylon 5 on television though and the technology in that science fiction program should be classified lol.


...

I never interrorgated anyone either, at least anyone that mattered lol. Seriously though, the hard question/easy question BS needs to be thrown into the closet. You don't know who you are dealing with in this conversation.


...


I was everywhere and nowhere. I was a shadow that struck fear into the heart of the enemy.



Jedi, you don't even know why that these quotes expose you as a fraud as plain as day, do you?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT
Jedi, you don't even know why that these quotes expose you as a fraud as plain as day, do you?

No, enlighten me.

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


No, enlighten me.

JK

I'm not going to help you be a better fraud.

lol.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT


I'm not going to help you be a better fraud.

lol.

Talk to your pal "BrotherBluto" lol. He knows I am right.

JK

[subgenius]

JK: "What "bravado" and "Ramboism" have I spoken of? I said I served in the army and served in war--do people become Rambos expressing "bravado" for merely stating that they served?
-----------------------------------
More lies.
"merely stating they served...."
It has been noted here by others who would know better than me (an inveterate coward), that those who have seen the most action and horrors of war are the most reticent to speak of it.
I saw this in my late father, who served in WWII in the 10th Armored, Battle of the Bulge, and a unit unrecognized for also being at Bastogne. He told us stories (what I would give to hear another one), but they never involved what must have been his own heroic deeds.
I have observed another quirk of human nature: the greatest are the most humble; those with the lowest self esteem, the most boastful.
Even if this guy did what he claimed, I am ashamed that our armed forces include people with his delusional thinking: his overt hatred of women, apologizing for the DC snipers, the University of Arizona mass murderer and abortion clinic bombers, among others.

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


What challenge?

JK

Your attempts at evasion are becoming more pathetic. You quoted the very post where I said you could verify that you served in the military. You have to be the most disgusting example of sub-humanity I've seen on the 'net.

[Jim Lennox]

I dunno, my mate Dave showed me this picture of a bird sucking a horse off. That was pretty bad..

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
Now as for your "siding" with others based upon "quality" information, I have provided no information for you to judge the "quality" of. I said I served and I went to war. Other than that, there is no "information", ... Hmmm.... you say that you have provided NO information. What about all of the data that LukeT dug up?

How about this little gem?

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
How about this--how about I tell you that I was one of the best soldiers of my generation. What if I said my expertise included extensive knowledge with explosives, bridges, obstacles (defenses), etc. etc. These are some military issues I am proficient with. I am very proficient with many others. But since you claim to have had some 12B training, perhaps we could clear the air and talk about some 12B stuff. Sounds like more than just serving in the army to me.

It has been awhile but where would you like to start? Want to talk about the relative effectiveness of explosives? M2 detonators? Shaped charges, cratering charges, ring-mains, cutting and test burning time-fuse, dual-initiating systems? Hey, I love 12B topics. Or maybe you would like to talk about military intelligence, or firing a stinger missile, or driving an M1A1 Abrams Tank, or flying an A-10 Tankbuster, ... Where you just joking when you made these statements?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight
You have been watching too many movies or reading too many conspiracy theories. You can't fake RSSI orders issued by a military records branch. If you tried, you would be caught and subject to felony prosecution. No, that is not what I am saying. We don't even know your name. What is to prevent you from sending some one elses orders to Hal? I called my brother in law and he said he could provide me with the info to send to Hal and I could pretend to be him and there would be no way for Hal to tell whether it was me or my brother in law. Especially since he doesn't know who I am anymore than he knows who you are.

So, again, how would you address that point and why won't you do as LukeT asks?

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by RandFan
Hmmm.... you say that you have provided NO information. What about all of the data that LukeT dug up?

How about this little gem?

Sounds like more than just serving in the army to me.

Where you just joking when you made these statements?

Hey, don't get all spiffy with me about it. The army trained me well...is that somehow also my fault?

JK

[thaiboxerken]

LOL. JK may have been in the Army, and he might have served with people that are now or were in special forces. But, I doubt he was anything more than a grunt.

I don't understand JK's need to brag and embellish his military experience or even boast about supposedly killing people. I wouldn't brag about killing people if I had done so during my military time.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by RandFan
No, that is not what I am saying. We don't even know your name. What is to prevent you from sending some one elses orders to Hal? I called my brother in law and he said he could provide me with the info to send to Hal and I could pretend to be him and there would be no way for Hal to tell whether it was me or my brother in law. Especially since he doesn't know who I am anymore than he knows who you are.

So, again, how would you address that point and why won't you do as LukeT asks?

Yeah, I see your point, Randfan. I don't think it will work out for you if you apply that standard of paranoia to it.

JK

[subgenius]

Anyone who worked on "super secret" stuff would not have brought it up in the first place to bolster their nutbag delusions.
And god help us all if this is what they allow to be in "super secret" missions.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
LOL. JK may have been in the Army, and he might have served with people that are now or were in special forces. But, I doubt he was anything more than a grunt.

I don't understand JK's need to brag and embellish his military experience or even boast about supposedly killing people. I wouldn't brag about killing people if I had done so during my military time.

That is just because you are uncomfortable with your heritage. You were taught in the leftist public schools to feel uncomfortable about criticizing other cultures, and God forbit if you went to war against any of them.

I understand but no one can change history just because it makes them feel uncomfortable. I will chat about my feelings on the military how I see fit, and since I went to war and it was me (not you or anyone else on the forum) that risked my life for my country, I have the right to talk about it and brag about it if I want to. I didn't see any of you standing by my side.

You see, I am an American masculine male. I am not intimidated by leftists and I never would have went to war if there wasn't a certain level of killing that needed to be done on behalf of the United States. Soldiers go to war to break things, not hand out a daisy and free love and march on Washington to defend Saddam.

I am proud of my heritage and am grateful I had to opportunity to participate in war-history to the benefit of my country, the only thing that matters to me.

I know that is not fashionable today with the leftist universities across America. I see that. It is more fashionable to join ANSWER marches to protest the idea of America and give aid and comfort to the enemies of America.

That is something I could never do and it appears that is why I catch flak on this forum for being a war veteran. Not a problem--I never sweat the small stuff.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by subgenius
Anyone who worked on "super secret" stuff would not have brought it up in the first place to bolster their nutbag delusions.
And god help us all if this is what they allow to be in "super secret" missions.

I don't know of any "super secret missions", do you? You ever serve?

JK

[subgenius]

What kind of a real hero names himself after a cartoon character.
(I don't claim to be a hero.)

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Starshark


Your attempts at evasion are becoming more pathetic. You quoted the very post where I said you could verify that you served in the military. You have to be the most disgusting example of sub-humanity I've seen on the 'net.

Well naturally. I am a capitalist and a masculine male. I undertand your feelings towards men like me.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by subgenius
What kind of a real hero names himself after a cartoon character.
(I don't claim to be a hero.)

You ever serve?

JK

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Well naturally. I am a capitalist and a masculine male. I undertand your feelings towards men like me.

JK
Now the name calling and paranoid delusions begin.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by subgenius

Now the name calling and paranoid delusions begin.

You ever serve?

JK

[subgenius]

What does JK do for fun? Does he golf? (I don't know of any --------- that golf by the way, not that he's a ---.) Does he have hobbies? Does he laugh? Does he love his mother? Does his mother love him? Does he have children? Does he love people? Do people love him (who know him personally and his "beliefs")?

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You ever serve?

JK
I've told you before. Remember?

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Well naturally. I am a capitalist and a masculine male. I undertand your feelings towards men like me.

JK
A "masculine male"....paging Dr. Freud....paging Dr. Freud....
time to find new suckers JK?

[subgenius]

Losing "precious bodily fluids"?................

[subgenius]

JK:
"I will drop in from time to time but will no longer contribute to the forum. I am off to pursue a forum where there is less hate and hopefully more people who share my views and beliefs.

Jedi "There is a God" Knight 11-12-02
(Atheists invited me back. JK 11-26-02)"
-----------------------------
A man of his word. "Word is bond."
-----------------
Time now to find that forum where there is less hate and (hopefully) more people share your "beliefs"?
------------------------------------------------------
If not now, when?
When people get really abusive with you? No.
When people ignore you?.............Didn't get attention as a child?.................

[Starshark]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Well naturally. I am a capitalist and a masculine male. I undertand your feelings towards men like me.

JK

The Charlatan is still avoiding the challenge. You're up there with Sylvia Brown. In fact, I think I'll keep my sig updated with how many days will pass before you accept my challenge.

If anyone gets confused about discrepancies as to how many days have passed, keep in mind I'm in Aus, and I'm not about to adjust for US time (because we're the ones who are right, just like we're the ones who are on top of the globe. :) ).

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


You ever serve?

JK
"Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"
McCarthy is dead, or is he?
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.
Those that don't remember history are condemned to repeat it.

[Starshark]

You may have to wait until tomorrow for a resonse, SG. He's fled the forum, rather than address my challenge.

I'll be waiting when you get back, JK you God-damned lying coward. http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/JAClocal/images/clipart/Animals/chicken.gif

[Brooklyn Dodger]

I'm sure glad I have a cable modem. I would hate to think I was wasting this much time downloading on a 56K modem.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
I'm sure glad I have a cable modem. I would hate to think I was wasting this much time downloading on a 56K modem.

For a man that doesn't like this thread you sure do post on it a lot..........

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


For a man that doesn't like this thread you sure do post on it a lot..........

That's because every time anyone else posts, I get an e-mail telling me about it.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger


That's because every time anyone else posts, I get an e-mail telling me about it.

Then go into USER CP and disable getting mail when someone replies to the thread.

And how exactly does getting an e-mail coerce you into continuing to read and post to a thread you are continually telling us you are tired of?

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Perhaps I'm trying to indicate to a couple of others that they might want to knock it off.

[Shaun from Scotland]

Jedi Knight is a pig ignorant, xenophobic, Walter Mitty doofus. He continually spouts crap on the board. Now he's been found out. There is nothing to knock off, other than this nastly little piece of human vermins BS.

If this bothers you, then tough.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland:
Jedi Knight is a pig ignorant, xenophobic, Walter Mitty doofus. He continually spouts crap on the board. Now he's been found out. There is nothing to knock off, other than this nastly little piece of human vermins BS.

If this bothers you, then tough.

Given the tone of your post, I'd suggest that one of the people getting very bothered is you.

This is a serious point, IMO. Has anyone ever heard of the elementary school standard "Don't pay attention to him, you'll only encourage him"?

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Shane Costello
Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland:


Given the tone of your post, I'd suggest that one of the people getting very bothered is you.

This is a serious point, IMO. Has anyone ever heard of the elementary school standard "Don't pay attention to him, you'll only encourage him"?

Guess what? When a person describes the Lockerbie Disaster as no more than "some wreckage hitting the ground" I consider them a piece of vermin. And nobody on this board is gonna convince me not to say what I think of this sack of ****.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


Guess what? When a person describes the Lockerbie Disaster as no more than "some wreckage hitting the ground" I consider them a piece of vermin. And nobody on this board is gonna convince me not to say what I think of this sack of ****.
I think people here have been overly tolerant of that hate-monger.
All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Starshark


The Charlatan is still avoiding the challenge. You're up there with Sylvia Brown. In fact, I think I'll keep my sig updated with how many days will pass before you accept my challenge.

If anyone gets confused about discrepancies as to how many days have passed, keep in mind I'm in Aus, and I'm not about to adjust for US time (because we're the ones who are right, just like we're the ones who are on top of the globe. :) ).

Well Captain Kangaroo, whip out that "Jedi clock" and start counting. You have elevated me to the infamous status of Sylvia and I am honored.

So we all know that the "clock" is running and a new "JREF test" seems to be springing up from the depths. The only questions I have is, what is my reward for passing it?

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Starshark
You may have to wait until tomorrow for a resonse, SG. He's fled the forum, rather than address my challenge.

I'll be waiting when you get back, JK you God-damned lying coward. http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/JAClocal/images/clipart/Animals/chicken.gif

I haven't fled anywhere, Captain Kangaroo. I am still here.

JK

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland
Jedi Knight is a pig ignorant, xenophobic, Walter Mitty doofus. He continually spouts crap on the board. Now he's been found out. There is nothing to knock off, other than this nastly little piece of human vermins BS.

If this bothers you, then tough.

I already said I am ready to accept the challenge, and you religious atheists are retreating. You are all acting like little brats who can't get their way. Want proof I served? Throw a wager up. Get all your JREF kids together and make it happen and then when I win it will be worth my while. Plus I will be able to put on my resume that I "won" a JREF challenge.

If you and the rest of your JREF brats don't have the guts to do that, quit wasting my time.

BTW, you should show Colonel Brooklyn more respect.

JK

[Shaun from Scotland]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


I already said I am ready to accept the challenge, and you religious atheists are retreating. You are all acting like little brats who can't get their way. Want proof I served? Throw a wager up. Get all your JREF kids together and make it happen and then when I win it will be worth my while. Plus I will be able to put on my resume that I "won" a JREF challenge.

If you and the rest of your JREF brats don't have the guts to do that, quit wasting my time.

BTW, you should show Colonel Brooklyn more respect.

JK

"It is not for glory or honour that I fight, but for riches". Yeah nice one JK...........

Oh and as for Colonel Brooklyn, I dont have a problem with him. It's with you Walter.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Shaun from Scotland


"It is not for glory or honour that I fight, but for riches". Yeah nice one JK...........

Oh and as for Colonel Brooklyn, I dont have a problem with him. It's with you Walter.

You are dowsing again, Shaun. You know dowsing doesn't really work.

JK