Engraving pistol bullets.

[Ranb]

Anyone ever hear of proposals to engrave bullets as a means of identifying evidence found at crime scenes?

As far as I know, it will only work on jacketed or solid core bullets with a flat or slightly concave base. Round ball, hollow base and cast lead bullets probably will not be able to keep a tiny engraved serial number intact when it is fired. While certain pistol bullets such as the 9mm and 45 auto have lots of space on the base to engrave a number, I can imagine that smaller bullets such as 17 and 22 caliber rimfire may pose additional difficulties.

California is considering passing a law that will allow only serialized bullets to be sold. Not sure if police, military and others will be exempted.

Ranb

[DaChew]

Seems like I heard this one mentioned about the time bullet fingerprinting and powder tagants were being bandied about. Probably wouldn't work very well as in the cases you noted: .17 and .22. It's also not going to work well on bullets used by shooters who load their own.

What could the possible use of that be though? Is part of the idea that identification would be recorded along with the serial number when someone buys rounds? Are we talking about bullet registration now instead of gun registration?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Ranb
Anyone ever hear of proposals to engrave bullets as a means of identifying evidence found at crime scenes?

As far as I know, it will only work on jacketed or solid core bullets with a flat or slightly concave base. Round ball, hollow base and cast lead bullets probably will not be able to keep a tiny engraved serial number intact when it is fired. While certain pistol bullets such as the 9mm and 45 auto have lots of space on the base to engrave a number, I can imagine that smaller bullets such as 17 and 22 caliber rimfire may pose additional difficulties.

California is considering passing a law that will allow only serialized bullets to be sold. Not sure if police, military and others will be exempted.

Ranb Any information on how they intend to prevent tampering with the engraving..


Sounds like another idiot politician trying to justify their existence..

[RandFan]

Originally posted by DaChew
Seems like I heard this one mentioned about the time bullet fingerprinting and powder tagants were being bandied about. Probably wouldn't work very well as in the cases you noted: .17 and .22. It's also not going to work well on bullets used by shooters who load their own.

What could the possible use of that be though? Is part of the idea that identification would be recorded along with the serial number when someone buys rounds? Are we talking about bullet registration now instead of gun registration? You could trace the bullet to the POS or at least place of sale. If the bullet was purchased recently there could be tape recording of the purchase. If there was a credit card used there would be a paper trail of some of the people who purchased the ammo. At the very least there could be an eyewitness of the person who purchased the ammo. Narrowing down the point of sale could be significant to detectives.

[Mr. Skinny]

Haven't they been able to laser engrave diamonds so that they can identify and distinguish them from "blood diamonds"?

Seems to me that if you can engrave a diamond without spoiling it's appearance, you could do it to a bullet. It would just be a matter of magnification in order to read it then. Hopefully it wouldn't require an SEM to read, but it does, at least, sound possible.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mr. Skinny
Haven't they been able to laser engrave diamonds so that they can identify and distinguish them from "blood diamonds"?

Seems to me that if you can engrave a diamond without spoiling it's appearance, you could do it to a bullet. It would just be a matter of magnification in order to read it then. Hopefully it wouldn't require an SEM to read, but it does, at least, sound possible.

I guess it would depend on the cost, wouldn't it?


A cost of $90 to laser-engrave a $4000 diamond is more reasonable than $90 to laser-engrave a $0.25 bullet.

Of course, I'm just guessing at the cost of laser engraving tiny script onto a bullet, but the general point should hold.

[Ladewig]

So they finally invent a bullet (http://www.frangiblebullets.com/) that is less environmentally hazardous (no heavy metals) and is safer to use near innocent bystanders (ricochet risk reduced to zero) and the state of California wants to outlaw it.

Such a law will

-increase ammo sales immediately before the deadline.
-increase ammo sales in surrounding states while reducing sales in California.
-raise the price of the bullets.
-reduce the availablility of bullets to law-abiding citizens as manufacturers decide to simple not sell ammo in California.
-cause criminals to simply file off the serial number before using the ammo to commit a crime.

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
I guess it would depend on the cost, wouldn't it?


A cost of $90 to laser-engrave a $4000 diamond is more reasonable than $90 to laser-engrave a $0.25 bullet.

Of course, I'm just guessing at the cost of laser engraving tiny script onto a bullet, but the general point should hold.
Excellent point aerocontrols. I had that as an afterthought once I hit "Submit" for my post.

Anyhow, in order to salvage something out of my crappy post.......the technology is there, but it's just not cost effective for this application perhaps.

Maybe they could get laser engraving down to pennies some day (I assume you pulled the $90 figure out of thin air, but I won't argue).

I've also seen a system to identify hand tools by micro-marking them with an (acid?) solution or some other visible mark. Don't know how this would work with a sequential serial number system though.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Ladewig
So they finally invent a bullet (http://www.frangiblebullets.com/) that is less environmentally hazardous (no heavy metals) and is safer to use near innocent bystanders (ricochet risk reduced to zero) and the state of California wants to outlaw it.

Such a law will

-increase ammo sales immediately before the deadline.
-increase ammo sales in surrounding states while reducing sales in California.
-raise the price of the bullets.
-reduce the availablility of bullets to law-abiding citizens as manufacturers decide to simple not sell ammo in California.
-cause criminals to simply file off the serial number before using the ammo to commit a crime. Don't forget the part about criminals stealing their bullets just like they do guns...

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Ladewig
-cause criminals to simply file off the serial number before using the ammo to commit a crime.

I took the meaning of the proposal to be that the serial number would be inside the shell casing, so that it couldn't be filed off.

[Bikewer]

Seems like the database would have to be enormous; millions of rounds of small-arms ammo are fired each year.

Since purchase of small-arms ammo in most states requires some sort of ID, it's not surprising that many criminals don't buy their own. Instead, they obtain their ammo the same way they obtain weapons, by theft or purchase from others who steal same.

Reloading is not difficult, and extensive use of such ammunition would possibly fuel yet another underground industry for supplying "untraceable" ammunition.

Unlikely that this technology would be applied to shotguns, though I guess you could mark the wads or shot holders in some way; they are normally recoverable.


Perhaps just an attempt to jack up the price of ammunition in an effort to provide some more controls? There have been similar attempts to heavily tax ammunition, or to declare it a "hazardous substance".

Note that the above mentioned "frangible" bullets have been in standard use by law enforcement for some years, they are designed to reduce pollution in indoor ranges. They are "target" or "training" ammo, and not intended either for hunting or self-defense use.

[Rob Lister]

Actually, if I were a gun control advocate, which I'm not, I would push strongly for this measure for exactly the same reasons some very quick-minded posters were seemingly against it.

From a gun-control perspective, it has almost no downside.

All of the objections/drawbacks mentioned thus far can be easily waved away with a political swipe of the hand.

It would reduce the availability/increase the cost of ammo sold in California. This would not much impact law enforcement/legit use as the cost of the ammo (especially as compared to the weapon that fires it) remains insignificant.

Sure, it might be possible to alter/delete the serial identification of the ammo but in most cases that would probably not be done (criminals are stupid plus most shootings are not well planned).

Sure, some ammo is stolen along with the gun but most ammo is likely bought afterthefact. In cases where it is stolen along with the gun it then gives the government the means by which to go after the original owner (or the seller!!!!!!!!) on civil (or criminal!) grounds, thus making gun ownership a more risky/less desirable business.

I could go on (and on) but you get the idea.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Bikewer
Note that the above mentioned "frangible" bullets have been in standard use by law enforcement for some years, they are designed to reduce pollution in indoor ranges. They are "target" or "training" ammo, and not intended either for hunting or self-defense use.

This site (http://www.sinterfire.com/comps.htm) says that their frangible, standard-duty hollow points are "designed for defensive and LE applications and effectively reduce the hazards and collateral damage and liabilities caused by missed shots."

[Tormac]

Originally posted by Rob Lister


. . .
It would reduce the availability/increase the cost of ammo sold in California. This would not much impact law enforcement/legit use as the cost of the ammo (especially as compared to the weapon that fires it) remains insignificant.

Sure, it might be possible to alter/delete the serial identification of the ammo but in most cases that would probably not be done (criminals are stupid plus most shootings are not well planned).

. . .



It might help if the shooting was not premeditated, but I suspect that if this became a law, everyone who plans to use a gun to carry out a crime will just sand off the engraving. Even if the engraving is inside the casing, it is not that big a deal to disassemble and reassemble a bullet, assuming that reloading presses are not also banned (and actualy difficult to get) in CA.

Criminals may be lazy and greedy, but not stupid.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
I took the meaning of the proposal to be that the serial number would be inside the shell casing, so that it couldn't be filed off.

That would mean that it could not immediately be filed off, but but removing the shell casing and replacing it is not a difficult task for someone with the right equipment.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Tormac
Criminals may be lazy and greedy, but not stupid.

If you qualify that to say professional criminals are not stupid, I'd agree for the most part. As criminals in general not be stupid, may I direct you to virtually any episode of "Cops."

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Ladewig
That would mean that it could not immediately be filed off, but but removing the shell casing and replacing it is not a difficult task for someone with the right equipment.

With that equipment, you can make your own shells, rendering the issue moot.

[Tormac]

Originally posted by Ladewig
If you qualify that to say professional criminals are not stupid, I'd agree for the most part. As criminals in general not be stupid, may I direct you to virtually any episode of "Cops."

Ha Ha ok, I think you may have me on this one Ladewig :).

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Any information on how they intend to prevent tampering with the engraving..


Sounds like another idiot politician trying to justify their existence..

And certainly factored in is the desire to make ammunition more expensive to manufacture and purchase. And it will "send a message". The practical usefulness of this proposal is minimal. Even the proposers, I suspect, don't really believe that serializing bullets will have any impact at all on crime. It is just one more stitch in futhering the anti-gun agenda.

[Rob Lister]

I've read the replies and concerns but somehow, it just doesn't wash. I'm sitting here trying to imagine a 17-24 y/old gang-banger in South-Central LA taking the time to disassemble all his ammo, file off the serial numbers, and reassemble said same. All while smoking crack in the immediate area of the reloading press.

This is a very, very good law to pass from a pro gun-control position. The downsides (not unbeatable by professionals) is really an insignificant downside in that there are very few professional killers out there in the first place.

Mind you, I'm not really for gun control but if I was I'd be very much in favor of this law.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
I've read the replies and concerns but somehow, it just doesn't wash. I'm sitting here trying to imagine a 17-24 y/old gang-banger in South-Central LA taking the time to disassemble all his ammo, file off the serial numbers, and reassemble said same. All while smoking crack in the immediate area of the reloading press.

This is a very, very good law to pass from a pro gun-control position. The downsides (not unbeatable by professionals) is really an insignificant downside in that there are very few professional killers out there in the first place.

Mind you, I'm not really for gun control but if I was I'd be very much in favor of this law.

I guess I am not clear in terms of what purpose you think the law would serve. It is extremely unlikely that the gang-banger you refer to would have gotten his weapon or ammo legally or traceably. It is the same paradox inherent in all attempts at gun control. The impact of laws intended to control/trace weapons and ammunition is only on those who obey the law and those who obtain their weapons and ammunition legally. The gang-banger and his weapon are out of the loop. Say you trace the ammunition from a drive by shooting - it does not trace back to the shooter. It traces back to individual or gun shop owner from whom it was stolen.

[Luke T.]

Gives a whole new meaning to, "I've got a bullet with your name on it!"

Okay. Registering the ballistics of every gun sold turned out to be a bad idea, so let's see if we can come up with an even stupider idea...

[Ranb]

After a bit more searching on the net, I was able to uncover a few more details on this proposal.

The base of each bullet is to be engraved with a serial number. The interior of the case is also engraved. Engraving a solid brass bullet or a copper-jacketed bullet on the base will probably ensure the number survives impact with the target unless the bullet fragments on impact. The number in the brass, steel or plastic case will survive after firing also. Problems arise when a number is used on cast lead bullets. Since the propellant gas is very hot, it tends to melt the bottom of a cast lead bullet as it travels down the barrel.

While start-up costs for engraving ammunition can be several hundred thousand dollars, large manufacturers will probably be able to re-coup losses when upgrading equipment by adding a few cents to each box of ammunition sold. Small companies may be forced to buy serialized components to assemble to remain in business.

If California really wants to rein in on ammunition makers, then they may make life rough for hobbyists like myself who cast bullets and reload brass. I’m sure if I wanted to keep myself supplied in cheap ammo, I would have to licensed just to load and cast, a potential nightmare for sure.

Take a trip to the local rifle range. You may see lots of brass laying on the ground free to pick up, take home, and reload for your next trip to the range. This would be like someone leaving your fingerprints at a crime scene if a potential criminal got his/her hands on serialized brass you bought at the store.

This does not seem to have any more chance to reduce or prevent crime than ballistics databases now in use. It appears to be another scheme to deprive some people of the chance to shoot.

http://www.saami.org/news/CA_ammoSer040505.htm

Ranb

[Zep]

You people know my position on gun-control, so I don't have to explain that again.

So I would suggest this proposal is as silly as trying to ban porn on the Internet. It's ludicrously inefficient and ineffective, and probably prohibitively expensive on so many levels in so many ways.

Billions of bullets, millions of owners... :eek:

How the heck are they going to track ID'ed bullets for a start? A shooter buys a box of ammo, lends a few to a friend while shooting, who has a few left over that go home with him, one or two go astray somewhere, and one possibly even ends up being used for badness. How the heck is anyone supposed to be able to generate a viable "paper trail" for that? *bzzzzzt!* Won't happen.

And don't like the idea of ID'ed bullets in the first place? So buy your bullets from Canada. Or Mexico. Or Europe, or South Africa... Anywhere that doesn't ID them. Or, as has been said already, load your own.

Sheesh.

[Bikewer]

Many millions of rounds of military-surplus ammunition is imported into this country per year, and avidly sought by shooters due to it's relatively low price.

[LTC8K6]

What, California crooks would have to import ammo from a neighboring state!

No way!

You'll just have criminals using ammo without serial numbers or stolen ammo, and regular folks paying more for ammo with useless serial numbers.

There will be no effect on crime except for the occasional stupid idiot who shoots someone with ammo traceable back to himself. These incidents will likely be crimes of passion where the shooter would have been fairly obvious anyway.

Reminds me of the "markers in the gunpowder" idea. An idea which would have included reloaders.