Why do the Vatican clergy need to wear such expensive frocks?

[crocodile deathroll]

One thing that I observe about the Vatican clergy is the over the top trouble they feel they have to go though in this transvestite tendency to were such expensive frocks. They are more preoccupied with making appointments with the exclusive and elite Vatican tailors than spreading the message of so called "truth" throughout the third world. Some of that expensive red cardinal's regalia may well cost more than what an entire third world village would earn in a year.

Just makes me laugh that for all their trouble dressing up as bad taste drag queens and all the other flamboyant theatrics they could not even get the color of their smoke right

CDR

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
One thing that I observe about the Vatican clergy is the over the top trouble they feel they have to go though in this transvestite tendency to were such expensive frocks. They are more preoccupied with making appointments with the exclusive and elite Vatican tailors than spreading the message of so called "truth" throughout the third world. Some of that expensive red cardinal's regalia may well cost more than what an entire third world village would earn in a year.

Just makes me laugh that for all their trouble dressing up as bad taste drag queens and all the other flamboyant theatrics they could not even get the color of their smoke right

CDR

Suffer me this. The poor are with us always.

Or some such tripe.

More important question: why do you care?

[Mephisto]

I think the operational word here is need. They don't NEED any of that stuff, they also don't NEED any of the billions of dollars worth of gold, jewels and artwork they have.

As Bill Mahr stated, "For being the largest anti-gay organization in the world, they sure know how to throw a pagent."

Mephisto

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
.More important question: why do you care?

I think we should care. I was raised in a staunch Catholic household and I could NEVER get a straight answer about this. This is an organization that claims to care for the humble, care for the poor an speak for the downtrodden, yet they cloister themselves amidst riches beyond most people's wildest imagination. I've been to the Vatican several times and I view their hypocrisy with absolute disgust!

Mephisto

[shecky]

I always wondered why TV evangelists dress like used car salesmen or had huge hair and ghastly makeup.

[Zep]

Originally posted by shecky
I always wondered why TV evangelists dress like used car salesmen or had huge hair and ghastly makeup. Would it be because they sucked at being used car salesmen with NON-huge hair and NON-ghastly makeup?

[Zep]

More to the point than beautiful frocking, where does a tiny group of biased unmarried chaste old men in a secluded monestary get off lecturing the rest of the world about sex and marriage? Are they the only ones with the users guide?

[crocodile deathroll]

I have have a niggling feeling they are more concerned about keeping their wealthy Catholic croney Italian tailors in business than caring about the deperate and distitute in the third world. And I feel I am right.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
One thing that I observe about the Vatican clergy is the over the top trouble they feel they have to go though in this transvestite tendency to were such expensive frocks. They are more preoccupied with making appointments with the exclusive and elite Vatican tailors than spreading the message of so called "truth" throughout the third world. Some of that expensive red cardinal's regalia may well cost more than what an entire third world village would earn in a year.

Just makes me laugh that for all their trouble dressing up as bad taste drag queens and all the other flamboyant theatrics they could not even get the color of their smoke right

CDR One could be forgiven for suspecting that what you know about Vatican preoccupations with the third world would fit into a thimble.

Regarding the Vatican glad rags, the papal tailor (who also has other Vatican clerics as clients) isn't saying how papal vestments cost - but it's been suggested that a full ceremonial get-up can cost several thousand dollars (John Paul II ordered one or two a year, according to his tailor). The same tailor says that a high-end cardinal's cassock costs less than $1,000, though special ceremonies require extra accoutrements. How much would a cardinal spend on his professional wardrobe in a year? Probably not significantly more than I do on my "uniform" (men's business attire) in a 12-month period, and I don't even go in for Armani. And probably significantly less than just about any high government official you could name.

When you see a cardinal in clerical dress, can you tell whether his cassock was donated by a benefactor? Can you tell whether it was paid from his own salary?

Moreover, most people would acknowledge that ceremonial attire serves a valid function. This is true on many levels and in many contexts. If the President and Secretary of State began attending state dinners in overalls or second-hand suits, and the Joint Chiefs paraded in army surplus duds, the Dow Jones would head south in a hurry.

Your suggestion that "They are more preoccupied with making appointments with the exclusive and elite Vatican tailors than spreading the message of so called 'truth' throughout the third world" lacks any apparent foundation, and in this respect I fear it has much in common with your other opinions on things Catholic. You should devote some critical examination to such views.

The drag queen and transvestite gibes are really out of place. Ceremonial clerical vestments are all descended from articles of clothing worn by Roman men in the latter days of the Empire, after all. The Catholic clergy simply ignored subsequent fashion changes.
Originally posted by Mephisto
They don't NEED any of that stuff, they also don't NEED any of the billions of dollars worth of gold, jewels and artwork they have.Aren't the gold, jewels and artwork part of the reason why the entire Vatican is a UNESCO World Heritage site? Would it be acceptable for the Vatican Museum, for example, to be divvied up and sold to private collectors? Does the United States government need the Smithsonian Institution? Is it a wasteful tie-up of capital, or a service to humanity?

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
When you see a cardinal in clerical dress, can you tell whether his cassock was donated by a benefactor? Can you tell whether it was paid from his own salary?

For what possible reasons would someone "donate" funds for a new cassock? That's like you paying for Bush's new suit so he can attend Reagan's funeral. They don't need the money. And do Cardinals get a salary? What for? It's not like all their needs aren't met. It's not like they do anything either, at least nothing tangible.


Originally posted by ceo_esq
The drag queen and transvestite gibes are really out of place. Ceremonial clerical vestments are all descended from articles of clothing worn by Roman men in the latter days of the Empire, after all. The Catholic clergy simply ignored subsequent fashion changes.

I'm guessing that an Armani suit would cost less than their "ceremonial vestments." I wonder if this expense could be justified by any other "charitable" organizations for the sake of ceremony? What if the administrative heads of other "nonprofit" organizations decided to wear Armani suits and Gucci shoes. Wouldn't people become suspicious that perhaps they were dipping into funds that could be used to feed the hungry?

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Aren't the gold, jewels and artwork part of the reason why the entire Vatican is a UNESCO World Heritage site? Would it be acceptable for the Vatican Museum, for example, to be divvied up and sold to private collectors? Does the United States government need the Smithsonian Institution? Is it a wasteful tie-up of capital, or a service to humanity?

Certainly they are, but how many people in the world can afford a trip to the Vatican to appreciate them? I'm not suggesting that the Vatican's immense treasures be divvied up to actually feed or house the poor, that's why there are poor boxes in most Catholic churches. They rely on the poor to donate to the poor so they can take credit (or claim that it was God's will) for the redistribution of meager donations. It seems to me that there is a great deal of hypocrisy in the richest organization in the world calling on it's members for donations. Would you donate money to Donald Trump or Bill Gates if they said your money would help third world countries? I don't think so.

Mephisto

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Mephisto
For what possible reasons would someone "donate" funds for a new cassock? That's like you paying for Bush's new suit so he can attend Reagan's funeral. They don't need the money. I'm not talking about earmarking donated funds for clothing, I'm talking about actually presenting the clothing as a gift. It's not uncommon for Catholics to give clerical vestments to clergy; in fact, if you check out an online purveyor of clerical garb (Catholic or not), you will generally find that they do a tidy business selling gift certificates. Indeed, when a cleric is promoted up the ranks (deacon, priest, bishop, cardinal) it is traditional for his friends to make a present of his first ceremonial vestments.

By the way, I did pay for Bush's new suit so he could attend Reagan's funeral. And if you pay taxes in the United States, then so did you.
Originally posted by Mephisto
And do Cardinals get a salary? What for? It's not like all their needs aren't met.What are you talking about? All Catholic clergy, with the apparent exception of the pope, receive a salary. They also get a modest amount of paid vacation time annually. Why not? It's a job, after all. And the cardinals run a huge organization that has an astonishing array of tangible activities. Your suggestion that they don't do anything comes across as simply unserious.

According to this (http://oldforum.catholic.org/discussion/messages/41/802344.html?1087739171) online Q&A with a Catholic priest:Cardinals who are in Rome have a regular stipend out of which they pay all their expenses. It is about $5000 per month. From this they must cover all their expenses whatever they may be, and they often include the helpers and workers in the residences and office, driver, all their health care, food, utilities, insurances, travel expenses, etc. Rome is incredibly expensive, so that is not much, all in all.This corroborates what I've heard elsewhere on the subject.
Originally posted by Mephisto
I'm guessing that an Armani suit would cost less than their "ceremonial vestments." I wonder if this expense could be justified by any other "charitable" organizations for the sake of ceremony? What if the administrative heads of other "nonprofit" organizations decided to wear Armani suits and Gucci shoes. Wouldn't people become suspicious that perhaps they were dipping into funds that could be used to feed the hungry? I need to buy three or four suits a year, not to mention a rack of dress shirts, just to do my job. We know from his tailor that the pope orders only one or two ceremonial getups, and he's a head of state. And the cardinals undoubtedly get by with less snazzy rags than His Holiness.

How many $2,000-plus suits do you think Kofi Annan or George W. Bush, the administrative heads of other similarly prominent "nonprofit" organizations, have hanging in their closets for public appearances? Even Lawrence H. Summers is more of a clotheshorse than Cardinal So-and-So.
Originally posted by Mephisto
Certainly they are, but how many people in the world can afford a trip to the Vatican to appreciate them?Five million or so in one week earlier this month. But that's beside the point. How many people can afford to visit Versailles or the British Museum? There are a finite number of broad strategies for preserving huge cultural patrimonies of this sort for the long-term benefit of humankind, and if you have a radical new proposal to make, I'm sure we're all ears here on the forum.
Originally posted by Mephisto
They rely on the poor to donate to the poor so they can take credit (or claim that it was God's will) for the redistribution of meager donations.If you have a plausible basis for (a) this supposed exploitation of the poor, (b) your characterization of Catholic fundraising as "meager", or (c) why any of this is fundamentally different from (or globally less effective than) your standard charitable relief effort - kindly disclose the same.
Originally posted by Mephisto
It seems to me that there is a great deal of hypocrisy in the richest organization in the world calling on it's members for donations.I agree with you, but we're not here to discuss the U.S. Internal Revenue Code.

Seriously, though, I think you must have a skewed view of what the Catholic Church's financial situation is. Most years the Vatican runs up a deficit in its operating budget, which is only about $260 million annually. John Allen (the CNN Vatican commentator now known to practically everyone from the extensive papal death/succession TV coverage) points out that the total patrimony of the Vatican - that is, the money it could raise from all the assets it could feasibly liquidate - is less than a billion dollars. He also observed that Harvard University could buy and sell the Vatican five times over.

The bulk of the remaining Catholic patrimony is held in dioceses, and you ought to know that they're not sitting on piles of money either. Some of them are filing for bankruptcy.
Originally posted by Mephisto
Would you donate money to Donald Trump or Bill Gates if they said your money would help third world countries? I don't think so. I don't know. But neither of them has a 2,000-year track record of effective charitable relief work. I'm rarely in proximity to a poor-box, but I'd certainly consider donating money to Catholic Charities.

[Skeptical Greg]

don't know. But neither of them has a 2,000-year track record of effective charitable relief work. I'm rarely in proximity to a poor-box, but I'd certainly consider donating money to Catholic Charities. Uhhh.. Come again.. You might look at the last 100 years ( still a stretch ) for any effective charity work by the Catholic Church, unless you want to count the decimation of indigenous populations as a form of charity .. ( sort of relieved the victims of their suffering )


The policys of the Catholic Church regarding birth control, is one of the primary causes of poverty, in some of the poorest communities on earth.

[geni]

Originally posted by Diogenes
The policys of the Catholic Church regarding birth control, is one of the primary causes of poverty, in some of the poorest communities on earth.


So the effects of post colainlism, poor management and civil war can be exculded? Having large families massively predates the catholic church ariveing in those areas anyway.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by geni
So the effects of post colainlism, poor management and civil war can be exculded? Having large families massively predates the catholic church ariveing in those areas anyway.
' excluded ' ? Not at all..

I said ' one ' of the causes..


The Catholic church has the power to address this problem from a 21st Century, position of enlightenment. Yet it insists on remaining in the dark ages.

Clearly immoral in any rational mind.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

How much money does the vatican have?

[geni]

Originally posted by Diogenes
' excluded ' ? Not at all..

I said ' one ' of the causes..


The Catholic church has the power to address this problem from a 21st Century, position of enlightenment. Yet it insists on remaining in the dark ages.

Clearly immoral in any rational mind.

Really. Let assume that they could some how make catraception the norm tomorrow (false but no matter).

You now need to show:

That the locals want to reduce thier birth rate

that the countries have the resources to support a population with a greater bias towards the elderly

that high population growth rates = poverty

that any welth produced wont be channeled into warfare.

[Skeptical Greg]

' I ' need to show?

I think not..

Maybe you should show that he RCC policy on birth control is rational ?

[geni]

Originally posted by Diogenes
' I ' need to show?

I think not..

Maybe you should show that he RCC policy on birth control is rational ?


You claimed it caused poverty you need to show the above in order to make a case.

The RCC policy on birth control is very rational depending on what you are trying to atchive.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
How much money does the vatican have? A quick google of " vatican wealth " gives widley differing opinions..

from deficits

http://panoply.home.att.net/wealth.htm

to unaccounted billions

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=68927

It is obvious they hold billions in assets.

I doubt that their books are open to public scrutiny.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by geni
You claimed it caused poverty you need to show the above in order to make a case.
You win. It was just my opinion..

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Originally posted by Diogenes
I doubt that their books are open to public scrutiny.

Yes, it most be one of the best kept secrets, but I wonder, after more than 1500 years of amazing a FORTUNE, how much does they have? Maybe they are the richiest people in the world, and they follow Jesus... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Just because of this, simple, fact, I believe that Catholics are more woo than most woos! ;)

[geni]

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
Yes, it most be one of the best kept secrets, but I wonder, after more than 1500 years of amazing a FORTUNE, how much does they have? Maybe they are the richiest people in the world, and they follow Jesus... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

After napolean nicked a load and various popes were less than perfect book keepers not much.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Originally posted by geni
After napolean nicked a load and various popes were less than perfect book keepers not much.

hehe, I guess you are right, they were humans, after all, and I bet some of them were as greedy as the best we have about now.

[geni]

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
hehe, I guess you are right, they were humans, after all, and I bet some of them were as greedy as the best we have about now.

The best we have now are not even close:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III

[sackett]

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll
. . . such expensive frocks. . . .

Hey, that's called a vow of poverty! Jeeze, don't you know ANYTHING?

[sackett]

Man, ceo, you sure do get fierce in defense of Mother Church. And yet you say you aren’t a snapper yourself.

I like the idea of the pope and his helpers going about in public (and why not in private too?) wearing brown cassocks with rope girdles.

I also like seeing Catholic dioceses go bankrupt. When they’re bankrupted paying damages to the priest-molested, I like it especially well.

I think that what people most object to about the RCC, aside from its appalling taste, is the futility of the whole endeavor: All that bureaucracy, all that expenditure, all that effort extorted from the willing and unwilling in the name of a chaotic body of pea-brained superstition that would amuse a Kiowa medicine-man.

Secular charities can do as much good as Catholic ones, and without wasting money on vestments.

[geni]

Originally posted by sackett
Man, ceo, you sure do get fierce in defense of Mother Church. And yet you say you aren’t a snapper yourself.

I like the idea of the pope and his helpers going about in public (and why not in private too?) wearing brown cassocks with rope girdles.

The colours of dress were chosen for a reason.


I also like seeing Catholic dioceses go bankrupt. When they’re bankrupted paying damages to the priest-molested, I like it especially well.

I think that what people most object to about the RCC, aside from its appalling taste, is the futility of the whole endeavor: All that bureaucracy, all that expenditure, all that effort extorted from the willing and unwilling in the name of a chaotic body of pea-brained superstition that would amuse a Kiowa medicine-man.


You know if you made simular comments about judaism you would be called anti-semitic

[b]
Secular charities can do as much good as Catholic ones, and without wasting money on vestments.

Can they? Name one secular NGO trying to get people out of North Korea.

[Skeptical Greg]

You know if you made simular comments about judaism you would be called anti-semitic Do you have information about the ostentatious trappings among the Jewish clergy ?



I have my similar comments ready...

[sackett]

Originally posted by geni
1. The colours of dress were chosen for a reason.

2. You know if you made simular comments about judaism you would be called anti-semitic

3. Can they? Name one secular NGO trying to get people out of North Korea.

1. Yes, supersititious reasons.

2. Well, that's only fair. After all, I am anti-Catholic. Or didn't you notice?*

3. No. I'll be interested to hear about RCC efforts to do that. I assume they take off the fancy duds before going to work.

* Seriously now. A non-religious Jew is still a Jew; it's an ethnicity, whether we like it or not. But a non-religious Catholic is no longer a Catholic; I'd call him a free man.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by sackett

* Seriously now. A non-religious Jew is still a Jew; it's an ethnicity, whether we like it or not.

Where on EARTH did you get THAT idea???

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by geni
You claimed it caused poverty you need to show the above in order to make a case

I live in the southwestern U.S. and the poverty levels of Catholic Hispanics is woefully apparent. The median salary for most unskilled laborers is just over $15,000 a year. Now, combine that with caring for the needs of a family with six or seven children and tell me why they're poor.

The church's stance on birth control certainly contributes to the poverty of many Catholics all over the world.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/oct2003/irel-o24_prn.shtml

"Demographic factors:
Catholics have larger families than Protestants. This can have two consequences for employment opportunity: firstly, there are more Catholics entering the labour market than their proportion of the overall population so that even if they had equal success in obtaining jobs as Protestants they would still be over-represented among the unemployed. Secondly, because of larger family size, more Catholics will be caught in the poverty trap such that state benefits are greater than or close to potential earnings . . ."

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/csc/reports/mm29.htm

THE PHILIPPINES: Catholicism, poverty and corruption

http://wais.stanford.edu/Phillipines/philippines_catholicism110500.html

I think those links should suffice.

Mephisto

[Mephisto]

In my travels through Italy (where I visited every noteworthy church and cathedral from Venice to Sorrento) I did happen across a group of Catholics that impressed me greatly.

As you might guess it was in Assisi where I visited the church and the hermitage where St. Francis lived and died. It become immediately evident to me that St. Francis was in direct opposition to the blatant amassing of wealth by the church. The hermitage was a monastary secluded in the hills and sported no gold, no jewels and only the most basic comforts. The monks didn't wear expensive vestiments, didn't pray in disgustingly rich churches and were probably closest to the idea that riches DON'T put you closer to God.

Of course, the Catholic hierarchy realized that you can't run a religion/business without being rich and powerful, so Saint Francis was a Catholic oddity, usually depicted as being close to animals. I guess that's why he was a hermit, huh?

Mephisto

[shecky]

Interesting. The couple of Franciscans I've met appeared to lead rather comfortable lives. Who could blame them?

The poverty thing is dealt with in a very interesting way among different orders. It seems they generally try to be self sufficient. I've always wondered how ambitious they are. Seems if they are good at generating a means of income, do they feel guilty? I've heard of some who were exceptionally skilled and successful in business/finances. Do any hold back on such skills in the zeal to follow a more agressive vow of poverty?

[geni]

Originally posted by Mephisto
I live in the southwestern U.S. and the poverty levels of Catholic Hispanics is woefully apparent. The median salary for most unskilled laborers is just over $15,000 a year. Now, combine that with caring for the needs of a family with six or seven children and tell me why they're poor.

The church's stance on birth control certainly contributes to the poverty of many Catholics all over the world.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/oct2003/irel-o24_prn.shtml

"Demographic factors:
Catholics have larger families than Protestants. This can have two consequences for employment opportunity: firstly, there are more Catholics entering the labour market than their proportion of the overall population so that even if they had equal success in obtaining jobs as Protestants they would still be over-represented among the unemployed. Secondly, because of larger family size, more Catholics will be caught in the poverty trap such that state benefits are greater than or close to potential earnings . . ."

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/csc/reports/mm29.htm

THE PHILIPPINES: Catholicism, poverty and corruption

http://wais.stanford.edu/Phillipines/philippines_catholicism110500.html

I think those links should suffice.

Mephisto

You assume of course a single social economic modle. In particular you assume one that at most thinks in decades.

[geni]

Originally posted by Mephisto
I live in the southwestern U.S. and the poverty levels of Catholic Hispanics is woefully apparent. The median salary for most unskilled laborers is just over $15,000 a year. Now, combine that with caring for the needs of a family with six or seven children and tell me why they're poor.

The church's stance on birth control certainly contributes to the poverty of many Catholics all over the world.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/oct2003/irel-o24_prn.shtml


I notice you don't quote from this link probably because it mentions that povertly amoung non catholics is also pretty high. In this case the poverty has more to do with a combination of an economy weakened by decades of violence and a currency that is too strong


"Demographic factors:
Catholics have larger families than Protestants. This can have two consequences for employment opportunity: firstly, there are more Catholics entering the labour market than their proportion of the overall population so that even if they had equal success in obtaining jobs as Protestants they would still be over-represented among the unemployed. Secondly, because of larger family size, more Catholics will be caught in the poverty trap such that state benefits are greater than or close to potential earnings . . ."

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/csc/reports/mm29.htm


Translation: there is a problem with the social security system.


THE PHILIPPINES: Catholicism, poverty and corruption

http://wais.stanford.edu/Phillipines/philippines_catholicism110500.html

I think those links should suffice.

Mephisto

I seem to recall that the Phillipines has suffered from a long running civil war and a slight lack of democracy for much of the last 50 years.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by geni
You know if you made simular comments about judaism you would be called anti-semitic ... by people who prefer making hysterical paranoid accusations of racism to justifying their weird system of taboos.

Orthodox Judaism is really, really stupid. Call me antisemitic. The Celestine Prophecy is really really stupid. Tell me I have a "closed mind". Young Earth Creationism is really really stupid. Tell me that in my heart I'm following Satan. Homeopathy is really really stupid. Tell me that I'm blinded by materialist dogma.

The fact that if someone says such-and-such a thing they'll get called names without any justification is not an argument against the thing they're saying.

[H3LL]

I think it is perfectly fine for the Vatican to parade their wealth that has been extracted by fear from the gullible.

I want parasites to be as visible as possible so I know when to swat them.

The last thing we want is them lurking around in dark corners where no one can see them.

That's what choir practice is for.

Keep it up Benny-Sixteen.

[Chaos Trigger]

Crocodile Deathroll, I think you have a very great powerful love inside of you. You really want a better world. You wish to stand for an ideal in which the world will be a better place for all.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Chaos Trigger
Crocodile Deathroll, I think you have a very great powerful love inside of you. You really want a better world. You wish to stand for an ideal in which the world will be a better place for all.

Nice thoughts, but I think you have a really cool avatar!

Mephisto

[nabiscothejerd]

Originally posted by Mephisto
I think the operational word here is need. They don't NEED any of that stuff, they also don't NEED any of the billions of dollars worth of gold, jewels and artwork they have.

As Bill Mahr stated, "For being the largest anti-gay organization in the world, they sure know how to throw a pagent."

Mephisto

they have to do that to make themselves important plus why not take money from people who are of a weaker mind philosophically but don't worry i never will

p.s. haven't you realized yet that the entire bible is gay and that they must follow the lord's word

[DarkMagician]

Originally posted by nabiscothejerd
they have to do that to make themselves important plus why not take money from people who are of a weaker mind philosophically but don't worry i never will

p.s. haven't you realized yet that the entire bible is gay and that they must follow the lord's word Please, I wouldn't drag the gays to the bible's level. Puh-lease!

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Uhhh.. Come again.. You might look at the last 100 years ( still a stretch ) for any effective charity work by the Catholic Church, unless you want to count the decimation of indigenous populations as a form of charity .. ( sort of relieved the victims of their suffering )Hmm. I'm not sure how to respond. I know you're not one to make indefensible claims. On the other hand, that the Catholic Church has not engaged in effective charitable work except in the past century seems an astonishing assertion. I am under the impression that for most of its history, in places where it has had a significant presence, the Church has basically carried out the lion's share of charitable relief work. In fact, I have seen it observed more than once that recognizably modern poverty relief legislation only arose (in England) after the state, by kicking out the Catholic Church, unwittingly undermined the country's social welfare structure.

But before I go scurrying to my library, perhaps you could briefly elaborate the basis for your claim. I wonder if it hinges on the interpretation of the word "effective".

I also find pinning the blame for the decimation of indigenous populations on the Catholic Church a dubious proposition, but discussing that here would surely lead the conversation astray.
Originally posted by sackett
Hey, that's called a vow of poverty! Jeeze, don't you know ANYTHING? I thought it was well known that the only Catholic clerics who take a vow of poverty are ones who belong to specific religious orders (Benedictines, Dominicans, etc.), and that's only about 1 in every 3 worldwide. Most priests - hence most bishops and, I assume, cardinals - make only promises of chastity and obedience.
Originally posted by sackett
Man, ceo, you sure do get fierce in defense of Mother Church. And yet you say you aren’t a snapper yourself.Compared to some of the clients I've represented, defending "Mother Church" is a walk in the park. But seriously, I'm no apologist in the ordinary sense of the term. It's just that in nearly 3 years on the forum, of all the criticisms I've seen marshalled against this or that institution or idea (income tax, homeopathy, ID, etc.), discussions of the Church's shortcomings (both real and imagined) have been among the least well informed. It's so easy to point out the misapprehensions that it's become difficult to resist. I confess that it vaguely disturbs my sense of fairness to let such things pass, but to say that I'm "fierce" about it conveys a false impression of emotional investment. I don't even disagree with the general sentiments expressed much of the time, but weak arguments shouldn't be suffered to stand regardless. That's why the advocatus diaboli was invented.
Originally posted by sackett
I also like seeing Catholic dioceses go bankrupt. When they’re bankrupted paying damages to the priest-molested, I like it especially well.I can't entirely disagree here, but I'm ambivalent because the local communities (Catholic and non-Catholic alike) almost invariably end up worse off in some measure. Also, judgments and settlements massive enough to bankrupt a diocese can mean that future plaintiffs get handed a raw deal.

Anyway, the point was that the Catholic Church is not hoarding some staggering institutional fortune.
Originally posted by sackett
I think that what people most object to about the RCC, aside from its appalling taste, is the futility of the whole endeavor: All that bureaucracy, all that expenditure, all that effort extorted from the willing and unwilling in the name of a chaotic body of pea-brained superstition that would amuse a Kiowa medicine-man.I don't subscribe to the superstitious aspect either. But it's worth noting that a very considerable number of the pre-eminent Western intellects in each of the last 20 centuries - in virtually every field of endeavor - have approached that "chaotic body of pea-brained superstition" with rather more seriousness than your hypothetical medicine man.

Far be it from me to reproach you for an occasional hyperbole. But isn't it better to bear in mind Sun Tzu's admonition about respecting your enemy?
Originally posted by sackett
Secular charities can do as much good as Catholic ones, and without wasting money on vestments.Seems valid enough in theory. Yet one is tempted to respond that if they could, they arguably would, and it's far from clear that they have done.

[sackett]

ceo_esq said, “I thought it was well known that the only Catholic clerics who take a vow of poverty are ones who belong to specific religious orders . . . . Most priests . . . make only promises of chastity and obedience.�

Alas, I did know that, but I must have my little joke. So well-heeled priests are okay. I wonder what mental reservations they make when vowing chastity?

ceo also said, “I confess that it vaguely disturbs my sense of fairness to let such things pass, but to say that I'm ‘fierce’ about it conveys a false impression of emotional investment.�

I drove to work this AM thinking, “ceo is going to uphold the cause of fairness, even fairness to industrial-scale religions.� Fighting dirty again, are you?

But I must reply that I am being fair to the Church. When you discussed the amounts of money bishops and cardinals actually spend on vestments, I fear that you were only sharpening the point of the Crocodile’s complaint. Why couldn’t these Princes of the Church get by with painted linen and cheesecloth? How about papier maché for their funny hats? The religious poor in many parts of the world have to make do with such materials, and their processions are satisfyingly gaudy. Hell, from a distance, who can tell whether it’s silk or paper?

[geni]

Originally posted by sackett
How about papier maché for their funny hats?

Been done

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_tiara#The_papier-m.E2ch.E9_Tiara

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by sackett
...

Hell, from a distance, who can tell whether it’s silk or paper? God can..;)

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by sackett
But I must reply that I am being fair to the Church. When you discussed the amounts of money bishops and cardinals actually spend on vestments, I fear that you were only sharpening the point of the Crocodile’s complaint. Why couldn’t these Princes of the Church get by with painted linen and cheesecloth? How about papier maché for their funny hats? The religious poor in many parts of the world have to make do with such materials, and their processions are satisfyingly gaudy. Hell, from a distance, who can tell whether it’s silk or paper? I've been thinking about it some more, and those are tough and legitimate questions. And part of the answer probably has to be resolved by reference to the Church's conception of its own office in the world, which obviously is not limited to poverty relief. I still think, however, that Croc's intimation that cardinals' cassocks are a "smoking gun" of ecclesiastical greed or hypocrisy is foolish.

Moreover, I'm turning over in my mind the questions of why I don't wear papier maché to my sister's wedding or painted cheesecloth to my friend's funeral (unless I truly can't afford better). I also wonder why I expect the holders of dignified offices to garb themselves elegantly, even though I know that dignity doesn't really arise from finery. There's an insight in there somewhere that relates to my earlier statements, but it's not the simplest matter to express.

At any rate, I hope it's clearly emerged from this discussion that being a Vatican cardinal is not a particularly well-paying gig, that they pay for their dress clothes out of hard-earned salaries or else receive them as gifts like the rest of us, and that finally (on that score, at least) they have little in common with the well-heeled televangelist who asks us to send $20 to his personal ministry while he's wearing $10,000 on his left wrist.