Evil American SHOOT BULLETS AT PROTESTORS!

[Skeptic]

...er, rubber bullets, I mean:

according to this link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030407/ts_nm/iraq_protests_usa_dc_4)

Funny, but when israel does this in Gaza, it's (according to AUP & co.) attempted mass murder.

But I keep forgetting: like the invasion of Iraq to remove a dictator, the attempt to assassinate the leaders of the regime who are the worst murderers, shooting at cars that won't stop at checkpoints for fear of them being driven by suicide bombing, and using tanks or planes against a less-well-equipped enemy (so far, at least--Arafat and Saddam both try their damnest to get all weapons they can), and so on, shooting rubber bullets at protestors is allowed ONLY if you aren't a jew.

If you ARE a jew, all of the above are "proofs" of "israeli war crimes and opression".

Of course, the reverse is true as well: planning to poison waterways, sending suicide bombers, sponsoring terrorism in general, using propaganda to convince the world your enemy is the "agressor" when your goal is his destruction, torturing prisoners, killing political opponents, and so on, is ONLY forbidden if you are an Iraqi--or, more generally, if you are not a palestinian.

If you are a palestinian, all of this is of course part of the "legitimate struggle for the inalianable rights of the palestinian people".

Am I the ONLY person here who sees the great similarity between the US's and israel's actions in this war--and the great similarity between Saddam Hussein's tactics and those of Arafat, the nobel peace prize laurate?

[WildCat]

Apparently the Oakland PD doesn't put up w/ the BS the SFPD does. (BTW, at similar protests here in Chicago Mayor Daley stated quite forcefully that the city would sue the pants off of any person or organisation found damaging property, seems to have worked).
According to this article: (http://www.asia.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2522608)
Demonstrators were seeking to block access to American President Lines, a shipping company they claimed was profiting from the war in Iraq when said they used the pellets and bullets to disperse about 750 protesters.
Well, how dare those capitalist imperialist pigs profit from the war! :rolleyes:

Edited to fix link

[Tmy]

I dont think people are as upset with the Israeli rubberbullets. Its the REAL bullets people have a problem with.

[Pyrrho]

How nice. The United States has become a "Third World" country.

[crackmonkey]

Next time they should use napalm.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
...er, rubber bullets, I mean:

according to this link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030407/ts_nm/iraq_protests_usa_dc_4)

Funny, but when israel does this in Gaza, it's (according to AUP & co.) attempted mass murder.



If I was a USian, I would be worried by this development. A welt on your chest the size of a baseball is another step down a slippery slope.



But I keep forgetting



are you getting senile?



: like the invasion of Iraq to remove a dictator, the attempt to assassinate the leaders of the regime who are the worst murderers, shooting at cars that won't stop at checkpoints for fear of them being driven by suicide bombing, and using tanks or planes against a less-well-equipped enemy (so far, at least--Arafat and Saddam both try their damnest to get all weapons they can), and so on, shooting rubber bullets at protestors is allowed ONLY if you aren't a jew.

If you ARE a jew, all of the above are "proofs" of "israeli war crimes and opression".



Given that I have not heard of this protest, all I can say is that now that I have, I think it is a sorry day in America. I thought that incidents such as Kent University would have shown that such means of acting against protest were counter productive. Somethine that can leave a welt on your chest like a baseball can do serious injury to the young, your face, pregnant women, etc.



Of course, the reverse is true as well: planning to poison waterways, sending suicide bombers, sponsoring terrorism in general, using propaganda to convince the world your enemy is the "agressor" when your goal is his destruction, torturing prisoners, killing political opponents, and so on, is ONLY forbidden if you are an Iraqi--or, more generally, if you are not a palestinian.

If you are a palestinian, all of this is of course part of the "legitimate struggle for the inalianable rights of the palestinian people".

Am I the ONLY person here who sees the great similarity between the US's and israel's actions in this war--and the great similarity between Saddam Hussein's tactics and those of Arafat, the nobel peace prize laurate?

Have you read the news. Yet more settlements.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/07/1049567618632.html

How are the Palestinians supposed to oppose them?



Critics say Ma'aleh Ha'zeitim is a political tactic to block the possibility of dividing Jerusalem as part of a peace deal.

The apartments at Ma'aleh Ha'zeitim are built on land bought in the 19th century by religious groups to expand a Jewish cemetery. Jewish groups argue that they are entitled to live on the land, and to remove the Palestinian "squatters", under the Jews' right of return.

The courts agree, yet no similar right is extended to Palestinians driven from their homes in West Jerusalem. The Supreme Court has ruled that Palestinians cannot buy property in the Jewish quarter of the city, even if they once lived there.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by Skeptic
...er, rubber bullets, I mean:

according to this link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030407/ts_nm/iraq_protests_usa_dc_4)



I must be missing something, I do not understand why the protestors were fired on in Oakland.

In San Francisco the police were able to ring up protestors and gaol them without rubber or wooden bullets.

What prompted the use of the bullets?

Were officers in danger? This is not stated in this article.

Is there a specific law the protestors in Oakland broke?

The response in Oakland seems extreme compared to the response of SFPD.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe


I must be missing something, I do not understand why the protestors were fired on in Oakland.

In San Francisco the police were able to ring up protestors and gaol them without rubber or wooden bullets.

What prompted the use of the bullets?

Were officers in danger? This is not stated in this article.

Is there a specific law the protestors in Oakland broke?

The response in Oakland seems extreme compared to the response of SFPD.

I'm in Oakland about three times a week. Trust me, this is very mild.

You do not know Oakland. :eek:

[crackmonkey]

Oakland is like San Francisco's evil twin. It's sort of a yin/yang thing...

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Next time they should use napalm. The land of the freedoms, using napalm on protestors?

You want to take us to the levels of all those countries we fight? :(

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Oakland is like San Francisco's evil twin. It's sort of a yin/yang thing...

Right. SF got Willie Brown. Oakland got Jerry Brown. :D

[WildCat]

Oakland has some real problems to deal with. The police there have better things to do than baby-sit a bunch of trust-fund socialists who throw rocks at them and seek to shut down the port.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by WildCat
Oakland has some real problems to deal with. The police there have better things to do than baby-sit a bunch of trust-fund socialists who throw rocks at them and seek to shut down the port. http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/US/West/04/07/sprj.irq.oakland.protest/story.protester.jpg

who said anything about rock throwing?

[Tony]

Hopefully, next time they will use real bullets.

[iain]

Originally posted by Tony
Hopefully, next time they will use real bullets. Quite right. The USA needs to show the world how to deal with protests : execute the protestors without trial.

[blackpriester]

I ususally don't do ad hominems but:

Tony, you are an idiot.
Not only does your stupid Texas flag speaks volumes about your poor, brutalized mindset (were you abused as a child or where does the aggresion toward your fellow humans come from? Extreme exposure to Old-Testament-Guided Sunday School?
Prolonged watching or "Walker, Texas Ranger" on TV?)

Shooting real bullets at people, huh?
I guess that's allowed because the police represents the good guys and dissenters to current government opinion are the bad guys? Or because corporate interests (which I consider important, make no mistake - I am an entrepreneur, not a commie) are more important THAN HUMAN LIFE?

But then again, I used to think like you until I turned about 19... maybe it's an age issue, if you're a younge person. Anthony Burgess would excuse you...

[Skeptic]

Tony, you are an idiot.
Not only does your stupid Texas flag speaks volumes about your poor, brutalized mindset...

Says the man who accuses others of "racism" at the drop of a hat.

But nooooooooooooo, we don't have any biases, now do we?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Tony, you are an idiot.
Not only does your stupid Texas flag speaks volumes about your poor, brutalized mindset...

Says the man who accuses others of "racism" at the drop of a hat.

But nooooooooooooo, we don't have any biases, now do we?

like I said Skeptic, being hit by 'rubber bullets' is not like being hit by a nerf dart.

[Jon_in_london]

Rubber bullets can kill when fired at close range.

And as for all you idiiots saying 'naplam them' and 'hope they use real bullets next time' well......... If it ever does come to that I hope your parents/children get caught in the crossfire.

Land of the free? bollocks.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Rubber bullets can kill when fired at close range.

And as for all you idiiots saying 'naplam them' and 'hope they use real bullets next time' well......... If it ever does come to that I hope your parents/children get caught in the crossfire.

Land of the free? bollocks.

Alas, other candidate for a bullet in the head.

[iain]

Originally posted by Tony


Alas, other candidate for a bullet in the head. Tony,
Are you advocating killing a member of this forum? Just asking.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tony


Alas, other candidate for a bullet in the head.

free to get shot by the police for speaking out against the government?

Reminds me of somewhere............

[Tony]

Originally posted by iain
Tony,
Are you advocating killing a member of this forum? Just asking.

Im advocating the same thing he is..

If it ever does come to that I hope your parents/children get caught in the crossfire.

..the death of innocent people.

[Tony]

These people werent "speaking out against the government". They were seeking to sabotage the effort to get supplies to the troops at war.

[Jon_in_london]

Hopefully, next time they will use real bullets.

Seems you are the one the one advocating the killing of innocent people. I just have an idea that if some of those people were your family you might get a bit upset.

[Rusty_the_boy_robot]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Tony, you are an idiot.
Not only does your stupid Texas flag speaks volumes about your poor, brutalized mindset...

Says the man who accuses others of "racism" at the drop of a hat.

But nooooooooooooo, we don't have any biases, now do we?

Hey racist, that was me. You can't even remember who it was that decided you were a racist?

ME.

You are a racist, so why are you denying it. You have stated that the Palestinian "barbarians" are "incapable of peace" and the only solution is to rid the world of them.

So it was Rusty who says Skeptic is a racist.

Because he is.

Tony may not be a racist, but he is an idiot. Probably around 13 or 14. Either that or he's like JK, just posting idiocy to get a giggle.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Seems you are the one the one advocating the killing of innocent people. I just have an idea that if some of those people were your family you might get a bit upset.

If you attack the police, and sabotage the war effort you are not innocent.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tony


If you attack the police, and sabotage the war effort you are not innocent.

It was the police who attacked them. Not the other way round. Stoopid.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Rusty_the_boy_robot




You have stated that the Palestinian "barbarians" are "incapable of peace"

The truth often offends.

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodculte.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodcultd.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodculta.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodcultc.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/palis/terrorkids.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/palis/mockfuneralchildabuse.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/palis/childabuse1202.jpg

This whole culture is a disease on humanity.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Tony, you are an idiot.
Not only does your stupid Texas flag speaks volumes about your poor, brutalized mindset...

Says the man who accuses others of "racism" at the drop of a hat.

But nooooooooooooo, we don't have any biases, now do we?

Skeptic, find one quote of me where I called you or anybody else a racist. I think you are confusing me with somebody else...

[iain]

Originally posted by Tony
The truth often offends.

This whole culture is a disease on humanity. In what way does posting some photographs without any date, context or verifiability qualify as truth?

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Rubber bullets can kill when fired at close range.

And as for all you idiiots saying 'naplam them' and 'hope they use real bullets next time' well......... If it ever does come to that I hope your parents/children get caught in the crossfire.

Land of the free? bollocks.

Jon_in_london, certainly you are aware of the fact that America does not only consist of people like Texas-Tony, right? Most of the people I have met in California are friendly, open-minded and only under the influence of the ShrubCo turning a little bit to the paraniod side... but that will be over in a year, I hope.
Although I have to admit that the Democrat candidates do look pretty weak right now...

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by blackpriester


Jon_in_london, certainly you are aware of the fact that America does not only consist of people like Texas-Tony, right? Most of the people I have met in California are friendly, open-minded and only under the influence of the ShrubCo turning a little bit to the paraniod side... but that will be over in a year, I hope.
Although I have to admit that the Democrat candidates do look pretty weak right now...

Of course I dont think the all Americans are like that. But I wonder if you realise how the rest of the world- particulary other democracies- percieves the US when stuff like this happening.

The US often appears very backward and the American people come across sometimes as gullible, ignorant, yahoos.

Which is unfortunate.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Tony


The truth often offends.

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodculte.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodcultd.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodculta.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/lebanon/bloodcultc.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/palis/terrorkids.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/palis/mockfuneralchildabuse.jpg

http://www.idiotarian.com/images/palis/childabuse1202.jpg

This whole culture is a disease on humanity.

Tony, should we take the Montana Militia and use them as poster children for the US? Why can't you draw a distinction between extremists and the bulk of Palestinians? Just let your emotions calm dow, it will do you good.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Of course I dont think the all Americans are like that. But I wonder if you realise how the rest of the world- particulary other democracies- percieves the US when stuff like this happening.

The US often appears very backward and the American people come across sometimes as gullible, ignorant, yahoos.

Which is unfortunate.


Jon, I hear you. I am German and currently living in Germany, so I know full well how Americans are perceived by other people(s).
I also see the American side of the issue dialy, when I talk to my girlfriend in San Francisco. And that's exactly what the two sides should do, instead of falling into Bush-like Black and White schemes: Talk to each other and see each other's points, validate their own opinions with sketicism and see where the facts lie.

And not forget to be human, so shooting protesters should be out of the question... :rolleyes:

[Tony]

Originally posted by blackpriester


Tony, should we take the Montana Militia and use them as poster children for the US? Why can't you draw a distinction between extremists and the bulk of Palestinians? Just let your emotions calm dow, it will do you good.

The extremists ARE the bulk of palestinians. The moderates are the minority.

[Tony]

Originally posted by iain
In what way does posting some photographs without any date, context or verifiability qualify as truth?

It doesnt qualify as truth. These photos are evidence that the palistinians are barbaric. Just like this photo is evidence that this guy is a religious fanatic.

http://www.annistonstar.com/tar/annistonstar/gallery/manholdingsnakes.jpg

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Of course I dont think the all Americans are like that. But I wonder if you realise how the rest of the world- particulary other democracies- percieves the US when stuff like this happening.

The US often appears very backward and the American people come across sometimes as gullible, ignorant, yahoos.

Which is unfortunate.

Don't worry, many Americans feel the same way about the world's other democracies too (the goings on in Northern Ireland doesn't make the UK shine too brightly.) But you have to remember that we are all getting our news sources from biased perspectives, even if you get it from a source other than your own local news.

[ssibal]

Maybe if those protesters were not blocking entrances to the port or throwing stones at the police they would not have been shot at. The goal of this protest was to block the road, which regardless of how unjust you believe the war is, it is illegal. And the fact that they began to throw stuff at the police does not help them. Some protesters actually want peace, but there are plenty that just want to cause trouble. These were a perfect example of the latter.

[Crossbow]

Hello all!

When I got to JREF today I expected to see JK gloating that anti-war protestors were hurt and that he hoped that he would be hoping that next time they would be hurt yet further, maybe even killed. However, it is obivious to me that now 'Tony' has eclipsed JK as the e-killer who is so desperately anxious for others to do his killing for him.

Good for you Tony! It has taken you only one thread for you to show everyone your complete lack of humanity. Most posters need at least a few threads to do so, but you have managed to do it in only one.

You sir have set the JREF record for sinking to the bottom the fastest! I am sure that you are proud of yourself and that you have done nothing to be ashamed of.

Originally posted by Tony

Hopefully, next time they will use real bullets.

Alas, other candidate for a bullet in the head.

Im advocating the same thing he is: ..the death of innocent people.

These people werent "speaking out against the government". They were seeking to sabotage the effort to get supplies to the troops at war.

If you attack the police, and sabotage the war effort you are not innocent.

This whole culture is a disease on humanity.

The extremists ARE the bulk of palestinians. The moderates are the minority.

It doesnt qualify as truth. These photos are evidence that the palistinians are barbaric. Just like this photo is evidence that this guy is a religious fanatic.

[blackpriester]

which goes to show that ALL prejudices are pretty stupid :). We should all travel more often to different cultures...

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Diezel


Don't worry, many Americans feel the same way about the world's other democracies too (the goings on in Northern Ireland doesn't make the UK shine too brightly.) But you have to remember that we are all getting our news sources from biased perspectives, even if you get it from a source other than your own local news.

Yes, Im aware of that. I guess a good many people sometimes think that the English are a bunch of football hooligans. Which is unfortunate but also understandable. IMHO- those hooligans are a national disgrace and should have thier right to leave the country revoked.

[blackpriester]

Oh, and thank you, Crossbow, i completely agree to your post.
However, I have to add to Tony's "Ehrenrettung" (credit) that his quote about

---
Im advocating the same thing he is: ..the death of innocent people.
---

does get a different meaning in the context he used it.
But the general tenor of his ultra-conservative propaganda is scary and lacks every conceivable from of humaninty.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Yes, Im aware of that. I guess a good many people sometimes think that the English are a bunch of football hooligans. Which is unfortunate but also understandable. IMHO- those hooligans are a national disgrace and should have thier right to leave the country revoked.


He Jon, may I remind you to stick by our values and even respect the freedom of those who are a disgrace? else, people on this forum will call us hipocrytes...

[BillyTK]

I haven't heard of this. But then our news media are totally focussed on the US/UK alliance and Iraqis shooting real bullets at each other and themselves.

Anyway, it's wrong and should be condemned regardless of the nationality of the perpetrators.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Yes, Im aware of that. I guess a good many people sometimes think that the English are a bunch of football hooligans. Which is unfortunate but also understandable. IMHO- those hooligans are a national disgrace and should have thier right to leave the country revoked.

Well, you forgot to add drunken to the front of that, but yes, sometimes you are. :)

Fact is, everyone's countries idiots get the most attention, while the sensible majorities pay the price. The best we can do is not be "that guy", when we travel abroad.

(btw, there is a great series of commercials running for a new extreme sports TV show, featuring total outcasts in extreme sports situations, with the tag line "Don't be THAT guy!" They are very funny and actually fit in more situations then the sports they are showing. :))

[Tony]

Originally posted by blackpriester

But the general tenor of his ultra-conservative propaganda is scary and lacks every conceivable from of humaninty.

Ultra-conservative?

I'm not even a conservative, you'd be surprised, I bet you and I agree on a lot of things. This doesn't seem to be one of them. If having "humanity" means sympathizing with terrorists, and those that seek to ruin my home, than count me out for "humanity".

[Rusty_the_boy_robot]

Originally posted by Tony


The extremists ARE the bulk of palestinians. The moderates are the minority.

Great, another racist.

Even if most of the palestinians are currently terrorists and idiots that doesn't mean they are incapable of being otherwise.

And all the palestinians are not currently terrorists and idiots. Although a lot of them are, but killing them is not a moral answer. A moral answer would be to educate them. Build schools for them, get their economy going, etc.. It would also probably be useful to set a good example for them to follow. So we should act morally, we can start by not letting their land get stolen (so they don't think it's ok to steal land), etc..

[Tony]

Originally posted by Rusty_the_boy_robot


Great, another racist.

Even if most of the palestinians are currently terrorists and idiots that doesn't mean they are incapable of being otherwise.

And all the palestinians are not currently terrorists and idiots. Although a lot of them are, but killing them is not a moral answer. A moral answer would be to educate them. Build schools for them, get their economy going, etc.. It would also probably be useful to set a good example for them to follow. So we should act morally, we can start by not letting their land get stolen (so they don't think it's ok to steal land), etc..

Great, we got a carbon copy of senator mccarthy.

I guess anyone that criticizes your sacred cow is a racist?

[Rusty_the_boy_robot]

Originally posted by Tony


Great, we got a carbon copy of senator mccarthy.

I guess anyone that criticizes your sacred cow is a racist?

No, you are a racist because you judge an entire people based not on their humanity but on their condition.

You know two-hundred years ago the black people in America couldn't read. They were all dirt poor and had horrible diets. Obviously black people can't read, earn money, or take care of themeselves.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Tony


Ultra-conservative?

I'm not even a conservative, you'd be surprised, I bet you and I agree on a lot of things. This doesn't seem to be one of them. If having "humanity" means sympathizing with terrorists, and those that seek to ruin my home, than count me out for "humanity".

Tony, I'm sure you are a great guy in person.

I just think that the posts you made in this forum are horrible. You advocated shooting innocent people for dissenting, grabbed all palestinians by the throat and threw them in the "terrorist" bucket and never looked at the single persons behind any of the groups you condemned. How am i suposed to judge "the tenor of your posts" other then I have then?

[Tony]

Originally posted by blackpriester


You advocated shooting innocent people for dissenting,

I advocated shooting people for attemting to sabotage the war effort.

How am i suposed to judge "the tenor of your posts" other then I have then?

Fair enough, Ill concede some of my post have been hateful. But that just goes to show the amount of disdain I have for the enemies of freedom.

[Tony]

Originally posted by Rusty_the_boy_robot


No, you are a racist because you judge an entire people based not on their humanity but on their condition.

You know two-hundred years ago the black people in America couldn't read. They were all dirt poor and had horrible diets. Obviously black people can't read, earn money, or take care of themeselves.


http://www.rr-bb.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Is this the best you can do?

When did I criticize the palestinians for not being able to read and being dirt poor?

Contrary to what you believe, I do judge the palestinians on thier humanity. Ya know, like blowing themselfs up in pizza parlors and night clubs?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
who said anything about rock throwing?
From here: (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/08/MN229620.DTL)
Officers fired wooden dowels, bean bags, concussion grenades and "sting grenades" -- rubber pellets accompanied by tear gas -- at protesters after they refused to leave an entrance to the docks, threw metal bolts at police and climbed onto trucks, police said.

Oakland police Chief Richard Word said Monday that if officers "had simply waited it out and facilitated protesters, there could have been thousands, not hundreds, out there, and we would have been overwhelmed."

Word noted that San Francisco police have "superiority in numbers," with about 2,300 officers, three times the size of the Oakland force.


The protesters were on private property, not public property. They had no right to be there, and they were getting violent. Oakland has a small police force and they were faced w/ a large number of demonstrators. If they had stayed on public property and been peaceful none of this would have happened.

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by Tony


I advocated shooting people for attemting to sabotage the war effort.

How am i suposed to judge "the tenor of your posts" other then I have then?

Fair enough, Ill concede some of my post have been hateful. But that just goes to show the amount of disdain I have for the enemies of freedom.


Fair enough, this is a basis we can discuss on.
I disagree with you in that the protesters are enemies of freedom - I think the current administration is, but that is a completely different manner (and once again, I judge them by their actions!)

I do have a great amount of disdain for thr way the Repubs are running the country myself, so I can understand how hard it is for you (since you feel the other way round) to keep your feelings in check. The problem is that if we stop seeing the human in the political "enemy" we end up where Germany was 65 years ago.

[Mike B.]

Can we all stipulate then that we do not wish to see protesters shot with live ammunition?

I hope so!

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Tony


Ultra-conservative?

I'm not even a conservative, you'd be surprised, I bet you and I agree on a lot of things. This doesn't seem to be one of them. If having "humanity" means sympathizing with terrorists, and those that seek to ruin my home, than count me out for "humanity".

You can be a liberal and still hold conservative views on certain things; you can be conservative and have liberal views on certain things.

This is why you have libertarians!
That bit's a joke, okay?

[Tony]

Originally posted by blackpriester



Fair enough, this is a basis we can discuss on.
I disagree with you in that the protesters are enemies of freedom

The protesters are harmless and irrelevant. Im talking about the criminals and enemy combatants that block traffic and disrupt our way of life.

I do have a great amount of disdain for thr way the Repubs are running the country myself

Honestly, I have disdain for the way both parties run the country. Both parties over step constitutional bounds, but the democrats do it more, therefor I more often side with the republicans.

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Can we all stipulate then that we do not wish to see protesters shot with live ammunition?

I hope so!

How about paintballs, or even laserquesting? One hit and they're out the protest for five minutes kind-of-thing?

[Skeptic]

Tony, should we take the Montana Militia and use them as poster children for the US? Why can't you draw a distinction between extremists and the bulk of Palestinians?

Because the bulk of the palestinians ARE extremists. There isn't ONE palestinian political party--or ONE important political or religious figure--that accepts israel's right to exist, or is against killing jews. As for the population at large, there is somewhere between 80% to 100% support for these actions.

Looking for a moderate palestinian is like looking for a moderate nazi or a moderate stalinist. There ain't no such thing.

Sorry.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Tony, should we take the Montana Militia and use them as poster children for the US? Why can't you draw a distinction between extremists and the bulk of Palestinians?

Because the bulk of the palestinians ARE extremists. There isn't ONE palestinian political party--or ONE important political or religious figure--that accepts israel's right to exist, or is against killing jews. As for the population at large, there is somewhere between 80% to 100% support for these actions.

Looking for a moderate palestinian is like looking for a moderate nazi or a moderate stalinist. There ain't no such thing.

Sorry.

I understand your problem, kind of like trying to find a jew who isn't a mean, money scavenging, big nosed pawn broker.

[Skeptic]

Hey racist, that was me. You can't even remember who it was that decided you were a racist?

ME.

Oh, I'm so sorry for the mistake.

As for your "racist" accusations, well... kiss my ass.

Thank you for your professionalism.

You are a racist, so why are you denying it.

Repeating something doesn't make it so.

You have stated that the Palestinian "barbarians" are "incapable of peace"

True.

and the only solution is to rid the world of them.

Nope. Never said that.

Of course, even if I HAD, I would only be mirroring the official palestinian position, according to which the jews are inherently evil and the only solution is to kill them all.

(Even then, it would be different: for the palestinians, jews AS SUCH, not their culture or actions, are evil. Jewish evil is a genetic thing, you see; just check palestinian texbooks and proclamations to find out the reasons.)

The palestinian view of the jews is, officially, the same as that of the nazis. Now THAT is racism. But you support them. Who is the racist here--me, who advocates self-defense against palestinian terror, or you, who supports a group whose official goal is the same as Hitler's?

As for what the "solution" is, I never said the "only solution" is to "rid the world of them", and I don't think so. I don't know what the solution is. If I HAD to guess, I would say the solution to palestinian blood lust is the same solution for German blood lust, as seen in Nazism: the only thing that seems to work is unconditional defeat. That seemed to have cured Germany of nazism; nothing else would have.

What certainly is NOT the solution, at an rate, is appeasing the palestinians by political concessions; that only makes them more bloodthirsty, in the same way it made Hitler and Stalin only demand more.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by blackpriester



He Jon, may I remind you to stick by our values and even respect the freedom of those who are a disgrace? else, people on this forum will call us hipocrytes...

Whose values?

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I understand your problem, kind of like trying to find a jew who isn't a mean, money scavenging, big nosed pawn broker.


Hehe.. maybe a bit tooooo biting, though. I, as a German, could not use that kind of sarcasm ;). For you, Skeptic, I recommend these links:

http://www.batshalom.org/
http://www.mideastweb.org/bereaved_families_forum.htm
http://www.ariga.com/humanrights/pchr.shtml
http://www.ffipp.org/

Plenty of joint effort from BOTH Israelis and Palestinians to come to a peaceful solution. The last thing those people need is someone who tells them that all Palestinians/Israelis are murderous animals...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by blackpriester



Hehe.. maybe a bit tooooo biting, though. I, as a German, could not use that kind of sarcasm ;). For you, Skeptic, I recommend these links:

http://www.batshalom.org/
http://www.mideastweb.org/bereaved_families_forum.htm
http://www.ariga.com/humanrights/pchr.shtml
http://www.ffipp.org/

Plenty of joint effort from BOTH Israelis and Palestinians to come to a peaceful solution. The last thing those people need is someone who tells them that all Palestinians/Israelis are murderous animals...

Yes, well, I have tried to point out something similar before. I think it was a waste of time.

[blackpriester]

Just like MLK said, unique:
"I have a dream..." ;)

[Lurker]

Originally posted by blackpriester



Hehe.. maybe a bit tooooo biting, though. I, as a German, could not use that kind of sarcasm ;). For you, Skeptic, I recommend these links:

http://www.batshalom.org/
http://www.mideastweb.org/bereaved_families_forum.htm
http://www.ariga.com/humanrights/pchr.shtml
http://www.ffipp.org/

Plenty of joint effort from BOTH Israelis and Palestinians to come to a peaceful solution. The last thing those people need is someone who tells them that all Palestinians/Israelis are murderous animals...


What? Someone is trying to insert truth into a racist debate?

Great links and thanks for posting them. Very informative.

Lurker

[blackpriester]

He Lurker... obviously great taste in music, my friend.
BTW, the sisters were playing in my town of current residence (Frankfurt) on April 1st...

[blackpriester]

He Lurker... obviously great taste in music, my friend.
BTW, the sisters were playing in my town of current residence (Frankfurt) on April 1st...

[blackpriester]

...you can imagine how discussion-trained I am being with her...

oakland has a serious history of rioting -- the police did what they had to. protesters should not put ANY of our vulnerable targets at risk. i thouhgt that more violence was required to move the protesters from the transamerica building (in sf). I felt very unsafe working here. it was a perfect opportunity for violence against a building that is a possible target for terrorist attack. Its like sitting in front of my car, except i slow down once, then its fair game if my light is green. Rioters are KNOWN to hurt people who are not obviously supporting them. there was some poor woman whose SUV was mangled by protesters stopping her car and jumping all over it. What do you think that did for the terror level of that LONE woman, stuck in a crowd of angry homeless protesters? totally f*cked up.

and they weren't lead bullets. they were wooden stingers and bean bags.

HAS ANYONE IN THAT FORUM BEEN IN OAKLAND? there was a riot about FOOTBALL and lots of people got hurt from the riotors, not the police.

don't f*ck around in oaktown, i'm telling you. Its one of the only places that people don't have much to lose and life doesn't have a whole lot of meaning.

stupid f*cking protestors. i really hate them at this point.

[Roadtoad]

To get back to the original concept of this thread, I think blackpriester has hit it on the head. When I drive through O-town, I've got to lock the doors to the tractor, and keep an eye on the damn trailer. And, I need to keep an eye out for anyone making sudden moves, or trying to cut me off on the road.

Oakland is probably one of the most lawless cities in the U.S. If you bring in further lawlessness, you create chaos. Keep in mind, however, that the Oakland police has stated that they are debriefing WITH THE PROTESTERS to prevent problems in the future. (Interesting. This might actually be one of the few good ideas that Jerry Brown has ever had.)

[a_unique_person]

So I take it this is the standard crowd control method in Oakland, and it is only because there was a protest by relatively well educated people and/or it was about the war that it made it to the newspapers?

Why is Oakland so special?

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Rusty_the_boy_robot


No, you are a racist because you judge an entire people based not on their humanity but on their condition.

You know two-hundred years ago the black people in America couldn't read. They were all dirt poor and had horrible diets. Obviously black people can't read, earn money, or take care of themeselves.

Ahem. As the official Fool-designated racist here, may I ask, when is the last time you visited Africa, or any urban ghetto?

We can discuss nature vs nurture, but tell me, what has changed in 200 years?

OK, back to the pigs shooting innocent passersby. :rolleyes:

Question for Roadtoad: Of the people in O-town that worry you what percentage are Afros(lineage caucasoid)?

[blackpriester]

Originally posted by hammegk


Ahem. As the official Fool-designated racist here, may I ask, when is the last time you visited Africa, or any urban ghetto?

We can discuss nature vs nurture, but tell me, what has changed in 200 years?

OK, back to the pigs shooting innocent passersby. :rolleyes:

Question for Roadtoad: Of the people in O-town that worry you what percentage are Afros(lineage caucasoid)?

Whadda ya talkin 'bout Willis???

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by hammegk
Question for Roadtoad: Of the people in O-town that worry you what percentage are Afros(lineage caucasoid)?

I'm probably more worried about the white guys I see in O-town. Most of them are pretty far gone. I don't know why they're in Oakland; maybe they think they can get a better handout there? Hell, I don't know. But most of the weirdo whites I see there are packing heat, and I would rather they stay the hell away from my rig. As to a percentage, I'd say it's more than 80% whites as opposed to maybe 5% African American.

Interestingly enough, most of the African American folks take a great deal of pride in Oakland, and are working hard to bring about something of a renaissance to the area. In some areas, it's working. You have GOT to see some of this town. Some of the city's leaders are doing some phenomenal things. Give it a few years: betcha we won't recognize the place!

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Roadtoad


I'm probably more worried about the white guys I see in O-town. Most of them are pretty far gone. I don't know why they're in Oakland; maybe they think they can get a better handout there? Hell, I don't know. But most of the weirdo whites I see there are packing heat, and I would rather they stay the hell away from my rig. As to a percentage, I'd say it's more than 80% whites as opposed to maybe 5% African American.

Interestingly enough, most of the African American folks take a great deal of pride in Oakland, and are working hard to bring about something of a renaissance to the area. In some areas, it's working. You have GOT to see some of this town. Some of the city's leaders are doing some phenomenal things. Give it a few years: betcha we won't recognize the place!

Now you've gone and ruined Hammegk's day.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Now you've gone and ruined Hammegk's day.

Not at all. It's always a pleasant surprise to discover any bright spot in any area of the world.

Are the bad-news O-town caucasians remnants of the 60's bunch & their kids who "dropped out" perhaps?

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by hammegk
Are the bad-news O-town caucasians remnants of the 60's bunch & their kids who "dropped out" perhaps?

That would be my guess, though you never can tell. Frankly, Oakland has really been trying to clean up its act over the past decade, (even before Jerry "Here's-my-800-number" Brown took office as mayor), and has made some serious strides. Unfortunately, you will have those individuals who have their heads up their asses who seem to think what once was will always be. Not so.

Frankly, my fear is that JB could be hindering actual progress in O-town. We'll see.