Curses not the swearing kind, zaayrdragon u out there?

[Kitty Chan]

Hmm the cat is back :)

to those who know me Ive been wandering around the U2 site as they are on a new tour, so Ive been distracted. Hi to anyone else.

But I come with questions in particular zaayrdragon or if anyone else of course has insight. My friends Catholic and Im trying to look at this from a Catholic and a Wiccian view. (To those that dont know me Im Christian) There, enough labels.

My friend is convinced she has been cursed by a Wiccian friend she has. She attended and participated in her Wiccian wedding and child dedication several years ago. She stills talks to her friend etc and the friend has given no indication of any sort.

In the last few months strange things have happened the water in the well went bad (seriously), strange headaches and pains, screams in the night her hubby heard, computer crashes etc. (I know, SHHH Im trying to explain this ;) )

She had been telling this naturopaths wife (shh) about the problems and this lady came up with since she had been with her friend then she must have been cursed. (stands to reason, right?)

So, lets say there WAS a curse, my understanding of the Wiccian belief is to harm none or it comes back on you three fold. So even IF her friend cursed her, isnt it against her friends belief in the first place?? So why would her friend do that? Within the realm of Wiccian belief that makes no sense.

Unless theres off shoots or a area I dont know about. Or when you do the child dedication something happens there she wasnt aware of.

:D Hows that for a first time back question. . . .

[sackett]

Perhaps, if your friend is devoutly Catholic, she might go to her priest with this. Mother Church has a long, long history with this kind of thing, and I believe that nowadays priests get training in how to comfort nutcases.

IOW, treat amateur woo with professional woo. Maybe later, when she's calmed down, your friend can decide whether or not she REALLY AND TRULY believes in Wiccan curses.

[Marquis de Carabas]

WB Kitty. Good to see you. :) I have nothing to add. See ya later.

[Kitty Chan]

Yea she went to one of the priests and he blessed a cross to hang in the front entrance of her house.

This is why Im trying to confirm the Wiccan belief so I can hopefully hit her with logic from that angle that its against her friends beliefs. And perhaps the naturopaths wife is well I will leave it alone.

This is the same friend who finally decided that psychics really didnt know the future. And between me and some other friends and actually a visiting priest at her church she was convinced no one knows the future. Maybe God but Hes not telling either ;) So same difference we are just not gonna know, end of it.

I believe she has found another person that has fueled the same fear in a different package. So Im out collecting data for input, I have a lunch date next week and have to be prepared.

Hey Marquis:D

[Z]

'An it harm none, do what thou will' is the whole of the law.

That being said, there are a LOT of Pagans and Wiccans who will use curses and hexes in spite of their beliefs, just as there are Christians who murder (The Mafia comes to mind). One can claim to be Wiccan, but that doesn't stop them from being Human.

Now, to be perfectly fair, there's very little chance that this is a curse at all, especially since someone who has performed both a handfasting and a Wiccaning is likely to understand the potential repurcussions of a 'curse' - the Law of Karma, Threefold Law of Returns, whatever you want to call it - and is also likely to not touch curses with a 10-foot Rowan Staff.

There are even some Witches who claim a hundred-fold law of returns on Evil! I've never seen that come to pass, though.

IF her friend is purely Wiccan, then the most she can hope to do to someone is a 'chill-out' spell or a simple reflection of negativity. At most, a faithful Wiccan may cast magic to induce calmness in an opponent, or open their minds, or arrange simply to send back any negativity that is projected at them to its sender.

Of course, you can always hit her with pure reason, and explain that the 'power of a curse' is purely psychological - that only one who believes they are cursed can actually be affected by a curse. Otherwise, it's just a string of bad luck.

WARNING - PURE WOO COMMENTARY AHEAD!
(The following advice has no grounds in reality whatsoever, and is based entirely upon intuitive/imaginative magical practices. Following these procedures in no way is a guarantee of success or happiness. Use only as directed. Void in Vermont and where prohibited by law.)

I advise a piece of red Jasper over each entryway into the home; a mirror (octagonal, preferably) near the largest window, facing out; and the burning of Sage (and Lavendar, preferably) smudge/incense in the home. Let the Jasper sit for three nights, then set it in a container of sea salt or rock salt until the next New Moon, then wash the stone well and bury the salt well away from the home. The mirror can simply sit where it is, reflecting negative energy.

[LW]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Now, to be perfectly fair, there's very little chance that this is a curse at all,

I agree with your assesment but for different reasons.

My reason is that historically there have been only two kinds of curses that were likely to succeed:

1) saying that some unspecified nasty thing will happen to the victim some time in unspecified future; and

2) saying that some specified nasty thing will happen in close future and then actually going there in person to ensure that the thing happens as specified in the cover of a night.

The first kind succeeds because everybody has some nasty happenings occasionally and the second because the curser did the things by his or her own hand and didn't rely on the vague superpowers.

[Moliere]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
WARNING - PURE WOO COMMENTARY AHEAD!
This should have been at the top of your post.

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
That being said, there are a LOT of Pagans and Wiccans who will use curses and hexes in spite of their beliefs
False assumption that curses and hexes exist.

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
There are even some Witches who claim a hundred-fold law of returns on Evil! I've never seen that come to pass, though.
Neither has anyone else.

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
At most, a faithful Wiccan may cast magic to induce calmness in an opponent, or open their minds, or arrange simply to send back any negativity that is projected at them to its sender.
The word "magic" says it all.

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Of course, you can always hit her with pure reason, and explain that the 'power of a curse' is purely psychological - that only one who believes they are cursed can actually be affected by a curse. Otherwise, it's just a string of bad luck.
Well spoken

[jmercer]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
WARNING - PURE WOO COMMENTARY AHEAD!
(The following advice has no grounds in reality whatsoever, and is based entirely upon intuitive/imaginative magical practices. Following these procedures in no way is a guarantee of success or happiness. Use only as directed. Void in Vermont and where prohibited by law.)

I advise a piece of red Jasper over each entryway into the home; a mirror (octagonal, preferably) near the largest window, facing out; and the burning of Sage (and Lavendar, preferably) smudge/incense in the home. Let the Jasper sit for three nights, then set it in a container of sea salt or rock salt until the next New Moon, then wash the stone well and bury the salt well away from the home. The mirror can simply sit where it is, reflecting negative energy.

Missed a few that I remember from my old occult research days. :)

Add red drapings or buntings around the insides of the windows. (Add sprigs of Holly if you have it - even plastic Holly from Christmas will do.) Pour a line of salt across the doorstep, all windowsills and on the hearth if there's a fireplace.

Remove the salt after 3 days. Bury the salt. Remove the bunting and Holly, and either store or discard.

All passive stuff, Zaay... you must be a nice guy. :)

I like your "reason" advice the best, though.

[Kitty Chan]

Gee see what just a little research starts. Seriously I am afraid she will succumb to this in a different package. So I appreciate what all you are saying.

zaayrdragon I knew youd know, I actually thought of you when this came up. So its 'An it harm none, do what thou will' is the whole of the law. (What you said about Wiccans using curses and Christians murdering is so true, if we could all understand we are first human it would clear alot up. :) )

You mention hand fasting and a Wiccaning is this the wedding and the child dedication ?? During the child dedication my friend said they had to face 4 directions and pray to different gods. (I think this is the biggest part thats connecting her to this) Cause the natropaths wife made that connection for her I feel.

In your opionion would that situation been one for delivering a curse? I agree there is little chance especially because the Wicccan friend is acting normaly towards her. The only thing shes said lately is to come see my friends new house. So of course my friend is worried she may want to bless her house and secretly curse it. I said simply say to her that the priest has already and thank you but she does not need to. some times a simple no is best right? One can see how things can run away quickly. Reminds me of Hitchhikers Guide "Dont Panic".

I was thinking that her friend believeing as you said would not want to bring problems to her life. I dont know what the staff is but good image. :)

Im thinking the biggest problem here is a uninformed natropaths wife who is perhaps believing rumours of Wiccans.

Thats interesting about what you said about the power of the curse I was thinking of Voodoo curses that have the same effect. They are based on fear of the bad kind. (fear or respect of a shark being a good kind) Im hoping to apply some of this logic with this too.

As for the "procedure" she mentioned doing a blessing and a salting. hmmm I have got to email her and snoop that out just what she did. Is what you described a Wiccan thing? or what is the origins?

Plus I think I need to know the evils of natrupaths :D

[Kitty Chan]

Moliere

Its all in the interests of better understanding :D

-----------------------

But you know Im thinking about that 100 fold law and no one seeing someone get returned on.

Im not sure thinking about it, the answer is no.

Ive seen a particular friend whom was in the habit of being lets just say you wouldnt mess with him.

His life after stopping that has been a series of stuff one wouldnt wish on anyone. Not directly related to his rough lifestyle. Although Im sure a couple people wished him early misery.

I know it would be a actual reality show that would beat them all. He even survived flesh eating diease. I dont know how it all works on the scheme of life but lets say he certainly did harm and seems to be paying for it, with you name it hes seen it.

[CFLarsen]

zaayrdragon,

Do you believe that curses work?

[Z]

Larsen,

I believe that curses can drive a person to wreckless or self-destructive behavior, if they believe in curses. Do they work on me? No. I don't believe in them personally. Could I curse another person? Nope, it's against my morals to wish someone ill, and especially so to express those ill wishes. Can a curse harm someone? If a) they know about the curse, b) believe in curses, and c) aren't careful, then yeah, a curse can harm them.

It's sort of like in the Matrix, when the Oracle tells Neo, "Don't worry about the vase." Which, of course, causes him to turn, knocking the vase over and breaking it.

And, of course, being aware that you've been 'cursed', if you are a believer or even consider it vaguely possible, you're going to be more aware of every little misfortune that happens in your life, whereas you'd have completely ignored or discarded many simple things otherwise.

As to the law of returns: Though I personally, in my woo-perspective beliefs, think that everything you do is revisited to you in some way - in this life or next (there, that's the woo out) - I think that what is more likely is that people who act like jerks are more likely to cause others to be jerks right back; those who wear a ready smile and an honest compliment, are more likely to be smiled at in return. A generous person is more likely to be remembered with a generous gift than a stingy person is. So, in a way, it's a true concept - that the things you do are returned to you. Of course, that's clearly not always true; but maybe, as the Frenchman (I can't spell the other word) in the Matrix babbles about, it's all about cause and effect. That no action is without consequence.

*sigh* Matrix-Philosophy 101. Also called, 'Canned Crap.' :D

Kitty:

Handfasting is the current Wiccan term for wedding. I think Wiccans in general tend to be a bit repulsed by the male-dominant ritual of marriage in most parts - 'Love, honor, and obey' and all that stuff, you know. But it's called a handfasting because traditionally, the hands of the couple (and occassionally trio :D ) are bound together by a length of cord.

Wiccaning is the same as a dedication or baptism, but for Wiccans, obviously. It sort of fulfills both roles at once. But most Wiccans refuse to train children in Wiccan belief until they are at least teenagers, which is sort of opposite of the idea of baptism, in which it is expected that they teach the kids religion.

As to 'facing the four directions', etc. Common form of Wiccan ritual is to 'cast the circle', which usually involves drawing an imaginary circle around the group and 'calling the quarters' - basically, each of the four cardinal directions is associated with certain properties related to the four classic Elements (earth, air, fire, and water), so Wiccans usually invoke the 'elemental spirits' associated with each direction - sometimes fantasy spirits, sometimes specific goddesses/gods, sometimes just the 'guardians' or the 'watchtowers'.

Another thing which is useful to know is that, although Wiccans use many names for gods and goddesses, most Wiccans actually believe in a Deity - a single, divine entity which humans interact with via different faces or facets. So Diana, Venus, Gaia, Nut, etc. are all just different aspects of the same divine being. They likewise generally recognize the Christian God as yet another aspect, so you may hear Wiccans claim that we all worship the Same Being.

Is there some reason, aside from being a Wiccan, that your friend is worried about curses? If they're not fighting or there's no other problem, why would she be interested in cursing your friend anyway?

I'd just tell your friend that Wiccans in general won't waste energy on curses, and are restricted by the Rede against casting curses anyway.

I'm not familiar with naturopaths in general, but I think the problem isn't with this other person being a naturopath as much as being a typical person today. Most people have a terrible view of what Witches are, without knowing anything about them. Almost all of us were raised to think that Wiccans were somehow evil or deceptive - it just sounds like she ought to get to know some of them first.

Mercer - not much call for 'bunting' where I've lived. In fact, I'm having to guess at what 'bunting' is.

And I never advise a line of salt - keeps the faeries out, you know. :D

Yep - passive. That's how Wiccans work best!

WOO WOO!

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
I believe that curses can drive a person to wreckless or self-destructive behavior, if they believe in curses. Do they work on me? No. I don't believe in them personally. Could I curse another person? Nope, it's against my morals to wish someone ill, and especially so to express those ill wishes. Can a curse harm someone? If a) they know about the curse, b) believe in curses, and c) aren't careful, then yeah, a curse can harm them.

So, what is the difference between putting curses on people and exploiting people's superstitious beliefs?

[Z]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
So, what is the difference between putting curses on people and exploiting people's superstitious beliefs?

How honest you are being with yourself. Really.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
How honest you are being with yourself. Really.

All I asked was, what is the difference between putting curses on people and exploiting people's superstitious beliefs?

That should not be difficult to answer.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
So, what is the difference between putting curses on people and exploiting people's superstitious beliefs?

That's easy. One's an individual thing and the other is organized religion. :D

[Z]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
All I asked was, what is the difference between putting curses on people and exploiting people's superstitious beliefs?

That should not be difficult to answer.

And it wasn't. How honest you (not meant as in CFLarsen, but meant as in the person claiming to be doing the curse) are being with yourself. Really.

As in, there is no actual difference.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
Hmm the cat is back :)
Welcome back :)

So, lets say there WAS a curse, my understanding of the Wiccian belief is to harm none or it comes back on you three fold. So even IF her friend cursed her, isnt it against her friends belief in the first place?? So why would her friend do that? Within the realm of Wiccian belief that makes no sense.

Unless theres off shoots or a area I dont know about. Or when you do the child dedication something happens there she wasnt aware of.
I dont actually think there is anything you can say.

If you explain to her that Wiccans will not malicious spells on people, she will not drop the belief that she is cursed, she'll only change the origin of the curse from "Wiccan" to "Satanist" (or other similar religions).

[jmercer]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon

Mercer - not much call for 'bunting' where I've lived. In fact, I'm having to guess at what 'bunting' is.

And I never advise a line of salt - keeps the faeries out, you know. :D

Yep - passive. That's how Wiccans work best!

WOO WOO!

Well, bunting is just basically a fairly heavy cloth that can be draped decoratively. Any red cloth or ribbon will do, but there's got to be a fair amount of it. :)

The fae can sleep outside for a few days, and there are ways to placate them outside during that period. You gotta keep cold iron out of the picture, though. ;)

Something more active would be vodun rites or some other stuff floating around out there that you'd have to be pretty sick - or REALLY P.O.'ed - to use.

FYI - to all reading - I agree that it's going to be virtually impossible to convince this person that they're not cursed... and it's that belief that's creating his/her problems. (There's no magic, other than the magic of human psychology at work here.)

Bottom line is, if you can't fix the problem by using objective logic, you have to decide if perpetuating their delusion by using "counter-hex's" is a worse evil than permitting the situation to continue. Tough choice, that.

[sackett]

Originally posted by jmercer
...Bottom line is, if you can't fix the problem by using objective logic, you have to decide if perpetuating their delusion by using "counter-hex's" is a worse evil than permitting the situation to continue. Tough choice, that.

You bring up an important, maybe even an urgent point. I don't feel so good about my first post now. The wretched woman already has obtained the priest's counter-hex, and I gather that it's not working. The trouble with Catholickism is that it sincerely bleeves in the Devil, so hexes and curses can't legitimately be poo-pooed.

Kitty: Google on wicca origins and you get plenty of sites that say plainly that it's all made up: it's just folks playing at heathens. Perhaps your poor friend can be made to listen.

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by Kitty Chan
Hmm the cat is back :)

to those who know me Ive been wandering around the U2 site as they are on a new tour, so Ive been distracted. Hi to anyone else.

But I come with questions in particular zaayrdragon or if anyone else of course has insight. My friends Catholic and Im trying to look at this from a Catholic and a Wiccian view. (To those that dont know me Im Christian) There, enough labels.

[stuff about curses and Wiccans and ceremonies]

:D Hows that for a first time back question. . . .

First off, welcome back.

Second, zaaydragon, lay off the shrooms, dude ;-) (Oddly enough, a lot of the Wiccans I know are totally into eating them in the woods... something I support actually).

And now for my answer:

You should tell her God is obviously punishing her and/or the Devil got control of her and is causing problems (with God's obvious OK) since she participated in "magic" and "ungodly rituals". I almost gaurantee that's the real problem: she fears the Lord's retribution/Satan's control and mischief for her "sin", but is transfering the problem onto the friend, who she was suspicious of in the first place.

Some verses to check out:

Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:

Exd 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

Exd 22:20 He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

(Hey, it's your book, not mine).

She better confess, repent, and say a bunch of Hail Marys and Our Fathers, especially the part about "deliver us from evil". Gotta love that old-time religion, huh? Go some ridiculous route and show the absurdity of it all, and hopefully she'll get the point... or maybe just collapse mentally into a vortex of delusional paranoia...

But seriously now, she's got the God with the bigger ****, right? Just pray to him to end the curse, forgive her, and heal her soul of the fear of Satan and his power:

Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

You can either try to deprogram all the mysticism out of her (hard, confrontational, and usually not good for friendships) and go a logical route, or just use her bigger, badder, more reinforced mysticism as a psychological solution. The belief in curses is the same as the belief in the powers of God. God curses/blesses things just like any other deity. If she is a true believer (i.e. psychologically her belief in God and his power is ingrained deeper than the belief of the power of curses), it will work like a charm, I promise. And if you truly believe in God, Satan, and their powers (even though she is Catholic and you Protestant IIRC), this is the proper route to take.

ETA to the end of that paragraph: and you are not being facetious or manipulative either. This is what your religion would say to do.

[Kitty Chan]

Seee thats why I luv all you guys, good advice in here.

I truly appreciate the honest answers. Some is confirming some is surprising. IE : musst keep meddling thoughts at bay err :)

I didnt think about her "guilts" or fears of these curses tracing around the way some of you have said, didnt think of it that way, thanks. Plus a understanding of what she went to. Really the same as anyone attending any cermony its all on what you choose to believe.

Which leads me to believe she is still looking for easy answers and substituted pscyhics for something else. And this naturopath is feeding this. Mind you I had those thoughts regarding Wicca at one time until I worked with a lady Wiccan. Actually we fought instantly and our boss stepped in and said look figure it out or your both fired and gave us the afternoon off to do so.

Amazing what a little understanding does we agreeded each of us was pretty great and became good friends. Although I did attend a Candle Party at her house. No cermomy just purchasing candles (its a girl thing). So maybe I need a cleansing :D But a couple of my friends were worried I was going to be ??? the imagination runs wild. Went had fun, bought a lighthouse candle which is still on my fireplace.

My christian view on this would have to be if Im going to believe that Christ is who He says He is then I have to believe that greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. So actually there is no fears or worry of curses. And on the other half of this, I dont recall Christ on witch hunts but being more concerned about how we treat each other as being what really mattered.

So to sum up my thoughts at this time;

Her friend has treated her well and she is not treating her friend well. The naturpaths wife is worried with fear and spreading this, not helping. The priest is giving her a cure all symbol instead of directing her to the source. She is still reliant on quick and easy answers instead of realising that sometimes the rain falls and sometimes its sun. Not for any reason than it does. Christ taught and its probably sewn on a pillow somewhere but its still true its not your problems, its how you deal with them.

Fear is a terrible controling thing. So hmm lunch has been moved to next friday which will probably go all afternoon as we are wont to do. :) girls. . .

So once again thanks for the ideas and the hellos. If there is anything to add please feel free and I will let yall know how it shakes out.

:)