How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

[Qureshi1_78]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=34&st=0&#entry399

Doubtless he'll be here shortly. Shame we all missed out on the wall clock freebies.

This was received by me when I become the WHCC member.

http://img211.echo.cx/img211/6851/wc25zr.jpg

I have posted a link of the picture of the wall clock which was distributed in 4th national seminar.

Visit NCH chit chat discussion board.
www.nchpakistan.com (discussion board)

[Qureshi1_78]

Originally posted by flume
The children are fine-looking. I am glad you had a large turnout. I imagine the lunch was excellent.

I am curious about whether there was actually any discussion about the JREF or about your prize.

It was a jam packed hall. Homeopaths were also standing at doors when they don't find any available seats even in upper front and rare galleries. See more pics in NCH chit chat forum.

Yes, Dr. MAS discussed the JREF issue. He will himself tell you in detail. His maternal grand father has been died today.

[Qureshi1_78]

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/1169/stageguest4kj.jpg

Dr. MAS was not the stage guest of this seminar. He always sits behind the stage and never appears as VIP, I always seen him working as worker. I can't believe, he can sits on the stage like this. I need clarification from Dr. MAS. :(

See, in this seminar he is sitting behind the stage even though he was the organizer of the programe. he only works as organizer and do not believe in show off.

http://www.geocities.com/ninjaforall/skyway.htm

See yourself. He was the founder of Pakistan Homeopathic Society. A founder is sitting behind the stage.

[Qureshi1_78]

Mrchans said "I note that the caption says "lady homeopaths" and not "all the lady homeopaths", so presumably we see just a small portion of the gathering. Anyway, whether it was 100 or 500 persons, it is still a small contingent of the tens of thousands homeopaths we are told are practicing in Pakistan (and that are needed to supply even a thin coverage og that huge population)."

In that response I would say,

so-for-non-of-the-homeopathic-talk-done-by-homeopaths-are- wrong.

If they don't have the picture of complete audiance then it does not mean that you underestimate them.

See in this picture (taken from WHCC CD) of 3rd national seminar.

http://img191.echo.cx/img191/746/hall38ew.jpg

You can see front and rare galleries. In this gallery homeopaths who came after travelling long distance from all around the country were sitting.

[Qureshi1_78]

http://img191.echo.cx/img191/7885/galleryhall5hb.jpg

This is upper gallery of the hall. (an old picture of the 3rd national seminar) taken from WHCC CD.

[wahrheit]

This is getting more un-real, more surrealistic, more ridiculous than I can cope with. I would not have believed another skeptic's comments about these homeo clowns if I hadn't seen them making fools of themselves like the past weeks here at the forum. All those posts, the self-adulation and of course those "seminars" and hilarious pictures, all of it seems like a big set up to test when other readers brains will just go "pop". No kidding, I can't believe this is real. Well, hope dies last, as I wrote somewhere before.

[Qureshi1_78]

Originally posted by wahrheit
This is getting more un-real, more surrealistic, more ridiculous than I can cope with.

Unreal, unrealistic and ridiculous in what sense?

I made many posts at NCH forum with pictures. If I say, Dr. MAS only use cycle and TANGA then what is unreal and unrealistic. Here you can see.... (Picture taken from WHCC CD)

http://img32.echo.cx/img32/8806/tanga11ja.jpg

If you have little sense, then you cannot say these pictures were taken in a day just to make fun. NO NO NO.

Everything which was floated by Homeopaths from Pakistan is correct.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Qureshi

Is there going to come a time when you'll address the actual topics of this thread?

[Qureshi1_78]

So for I have given response on your posts, when you will come to the topic then I would be having no hesitation.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
So for I have given response on your posts, when you will come to the topic then I would be having no hesitation. Splendid.

How does homeopathy work?

We anxiously await your unhesitant reply.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
http://img32.echo.cx/img32/8806/tanga11ja.jpg


"CHILDRENS ARE SITTING"

What? Were you worried we might think they were his troupe of midgets?

[Qureshi1_78]

Dear Dr. MAS

I am exhausted now. :D :D

bye

It is over to you. ;)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
Dear Dr. MAS

I am exhausted now. :D :D

bye

It is over to you. ;) But you haven't even started! All you've done is the preliminary pleasantries!

When is one of you going to start explaining your theory of how homoeopathy works? You've been promising this for weeks, but never a word of actual explanation.

Soon, I'll start to think that you have no more belief that homoeopathy works than I do. Maybe you should apply for your own prize!

Rolfe.

[Qureshi1_78]

When you will remove your signature.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
When you will remove your signature. Oh dearie me no! In fact, what I must do is to re-post the saved thread the link went to, before it was deleted at H'pathy because they can't face the truth - which is that homoeopaths are a bunch of dangerous, deluded, moneygrubbing quacks who will let people die of serious diseases either because they're too uneducated to realise how serious the situation is, or because they're so conceited they really think that magic sugar pills can cure serious diseases.

However, I note yet another excuse and evasion to get out of posting an explanation - an explanation it is becoming increasingly clear you don't have.

Edited to add: Link fixed. At least, page 1 is available, and that's the most interesting part. I have pages 2 and 3 too, but I'll have to edit the code a little to restore the intra-thread links. Thanks for the prompt, Qureshi, now everyone can see how dangerous you people - especially Snoopy and Syed - are, once again.

Rolfe.

[Nucular]

I'm sorry, I think this little exchange deserves an action replay. When I read it, I didn't know whether to laugh, applaud, or smash a plate over my head in sheer disbelief.Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Qureshi

Is there going to come a time when you'll address the actual topics of this thread? Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
So for I have given response on your posts, when you will come to the topic then I would be having no hesitation.Originally posted by Psiload
Splendid.

How does homeopathy work?

We anxiously await your unhesitant reply. Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
Dear Dr. MAS

I am exhausted now.

bye

It is over to you. Originally posted by Rolfe
When is one of you going to start explaining your theory of how homoeopathy works? You've been promising this for weeks, but never a word of actual explanation.Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
When you will remove your signatureLet no-one be in any doubt - as if anybody reading these threads could be any more - that these people will never answer a single straightforward question about homeopathy.

Qureshi, can't you see what a joke you're making of what you claim to be your profession?

[Mojo]

At least Qureshi has done something constructive; he's confirmed (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1870925829#post1870925829) that MAS is a fraud:He has one or two Ph.D, I can't comment but I know he does not own those degrees. He just write in the sense that other own such type of degrees at higher level to impress others which are not acceptable in Pakistan just like MD. He has done MD but does not own MD because that MD is not acceptable by Higher Education Commission (HEC) which is the ultimate authority to recognize degrees in Pakistan.'Nuff said.

[Zep]

I'll bet his horse has a PhD too.

[Jeff Corey]

And the eohippus it rode in on.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Mojo
At least Qureshi has done something constructive; he's confirmed (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1870925829#post1870925829) that MAS is a fraud:'Nuff said.

Ditto.

[Qureshi1_78]

I can see your glittering faces... How happy you are :D

[Zep]

No, Qureshi, it's actually rather sad. Once again, someone who was said to us was a famous and knowledgeable homeopath who could explain all the science and technicalities of homeopathy with ease has turned out to be yet another ill-informed amateur poseur. And you have helped unmask his position.

Do you understand what that means?

[Qureshi1_78]

Originally posted by Zep
Do you understand what that means?

I very much know what I am doing. When I was running straight on the track you were trying to detrack me and now if I have been detracked you are trying to put me back on track. :D

When in simple form few homeopaths trying to convince you, you never came on track and when we changed our strategy now you want point to point serious discussion.

Ok, if you all agree, we will participate seriously and we will not raise fingers on personal level then we may become serious again.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
Ok, if you all agree, we will participate seriously and we will not raise fingers on personal level then we may become serious again.
I agree. Let the serious discussion begin. Would you like to begin by adressing BSM's post?

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey, about half a century ago.


MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na2SO4 solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 1023 of each of the component moieties of Na2SO4. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 1022.

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 1020 of each of the components of Na2SO4.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.



How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 1020?


Edit: Changed some stuff...

[Qureshi1_78]

MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na2SO4 solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 1023 of each of the component moieties of Na2SO4. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 1022.

(1)What is Na2So4?

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 1020 of each of the components of Na2SO4.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.



How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 1020?

You ask for serious discussion. I agree.

One question is floated above (2) why did you take this?

(3) is it applicable on each potency of homeopathy? like belladonna, opium, plumbum met, arg nit etc

Please follow up point to point.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
(1)What is Na2So4?
Sodium Sulphate. You might know it as "Nat Sulph" or "Natrum Sulphuricum."
(2) why did you take this?
source (http://www.lifesvigor.com/prod/31943/)
Natrum Sulphuricum (Sodium Sulphate (Glauber's Salt) is a homeopathic remedy indicated for nausea, biliousness, dermatitis, rheumatism, hepatobiliary disorders, bronchial asthma, diarrhea, and trauma suffered by nervous system. www.lifesvigor.com

(3) is it applicable on each potency of homeopathy? like belladonna, opium, plumbum met, arg nit etc
The link I posted above sells it at 30X.
Please follow up point to point. please
Done, over to you.

[flume]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
(1)What is Na2So4?

You ask for serious discussion. I agree.

One question is floated above (2) why did you take this?

(3) is it applicable on each potency of homeopathy? like belladonna, opium, plumbum met, arg nit etc

Please follow up point to point.
Your questions (2) and (3)are not clear to me, but I will add some suggestions that might help to answer them.

If your question (2) is asking why BSM picked sodium sulfate, I think there are two reasons.

First, Dr. MAS had talked about using Nat. Sulfuricum as a treatment in some previous post, so this remedy had already been brought up by Dr. MAS.

Second, it is a simple example to talk about (easier than a complicated remedy like an extract of bees).
It has been difficult to understand the arguments of different homeopaths when they talk about dilution and Avogadro's number. It is easier to start the discussion with a simple remedy. Their arguments need to be able to explain dilution of the simple chemicals like sodium sulfate and sodium chloride. And once we can understand each other about the dilution of simple chemicals it will be easier to communicate about more complicated ones.

For your question (3), when you talk about materials which may not be very soluble in the diluting material, or which might have some reaction with that material, or which contain many different molecules, it will be easier to talk about those after we have a good communication about the simple ones. (Some posts have already talked about those examples.The molecules will still be diluted out.)

In the post you quoted was this section:You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.
How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 1020?In case you don't remember why this question was asked, it was in response to this Dr. MAS post. (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&action=showpost&postid=1870863532)

[Zep]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
I very much know what I am doing. When I was running straight on the track you were trying to detrack me and now if I have been detracked you are trying to put me back on track. :D

When in simple form few homeopaths trying to convince you, you never came on track and when we changed our strategy now you want point to point serious discussion.

Ok, if you all agree, we will participate seriously and we will not raise fingers on personal level then we may become serious again. Excuses, excuses...

However I am perfectly happy to be serious, along with everyone else, if you can. I can see you have been presented with a simple chemical situation by BSM, Donks and flume. I, too, would like to see your discussion and theory on this exercise. I shall now sit quietly while you address this audience.

[Qureshi1_78]

[quote](3) is it applicable on each potency of homeopathy? like belladonna, opium, plumbum met, arg nit etc
----------------------------------------------------------


The link I posted above sells it at 30X.[/quote

Thanks, that good.

Is the av/g formula (you explained above) applicable on each homeopathic potency?

[Qureshi1_78]

Originally posted by Zep
I shall now sit quietly while you address this audience.

:D :D :D

Hi Dr. MAS

It is over to you, you complained your students that they are not serious and you sent me to take extra periods of yours. It is over to you.

[Zep]

Well well. Why am I not surprised.

You know, Qureshi, it says in your sig that you are, and I quote:Dr. I. A. QureshiThat means YOU are a DOCTOR and should at least know what you are doing with homeopathic medicines. Do you not?

If you DON'T know, how do you get away with prescribing to people medicine that you know nothing about and can't describe how it works or even how it is made? Where on earth did you get a license to practice medicine at all?

If you DO know, why run away and leave the problem of explaining something as simple as homeopathic medicine to someone else? And that someone else has already run away without answering questions too?

Hmmmm. In fact, you and Dr MAS are so similar in word and deed here that I would be tempted to say you are one and the same person...

[flume]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
Is the av/g formula (you explained above) applicable on each homeopathic potency? It is not clear what formula you mean by the 'av/g' formula. Maybe you could put more details into your question. Or we can wait for Dr. MAS.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
Is the av/g formula (you explained above) applicable on each homeopathic potency?
If you are deriving some formula from what BSM posted, I'd need to see it before answering whether it is applicable or not. Yes, you could easily derive a simple formula that would be applicable at any level of dilution, based on that post alone. No, I have no idea if you did that.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Zep
Well well. Why am I not surprised.

You know, Qureshi, it says in your sig that you are, and I quote:That means YOU are a DOCTOR and should at least know what you are doing with homeopathic medicines. Do you not?

...snip...

They may not know what there are doing. The Pakistani authorities state there are many homeopathic "Doctors" who are nothing more then "quacks" who cheat people of their money and also cause direct harm by their “remedies�.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
:D :D :D

Hi Dr. MAS

It is over to you, you complained your students that they are not serious and you sent me to take extra periods of yours. It is over to you.
So that's it? The "serious discussion" was asking a couple of inane questions, and not answering any?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Donks
So that's it? The "serious discussion" was asking a couple of inane questions, and not answering any? Y'know, Kumar used to do this - get backed into a corner and then say "I've had enough of you. I'm going to run away now." So it would not surprise me if this "Qureshi" and our dear old "Kumar" don't live a million miles from each other, or look like each other, or share the same offices at work...

[Donks]

Originally posted by Zep
Y'know, Kumar used to do this - get backed into a corner and then say "I've had enough of you. I'm going to run away now." So it would not surprise me if this "Qureshi" and our dear old "Kumar" don't live a million miles from each other, or look like each other, or share the same offices at work...
Lately homeopaths have been boring me to tears. If this is the best they can do, I can't see how so many people have been swindled by them.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Donks
If this is the best they can do, I can't see how so many people have been swindled by them. You don't have to be smarter than your victim to be a swindler. You just have to appear to be so. Hence the NCH preponderence for lengthy titles at the expense of actual knowledge.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Donks
So that's it? The "serious discussion" was asking a couple of inane questions, and not answering any? Well, he posted some holiday snaps as well...

[Donks]

Originally posted by Mojo
Well, he posted some holiday snaps as well...
Wanna see pictures of my trip to Egypt? Those are bound to get me a gold medal for something from the homeopaths :D

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Donks
So that's it? The "serious discussion" was asking a couple of inane questions, and not answering any?

Well, did you expect any less? In terms of homeopaths, they aren't even a good bunch of homeopaths. At least the better ones can put together a somewhat logical argument. All these fellows seem to be doing is acting like a bunch of 5 year olds. Not very appropriate for people who consider themselves doctors.

[Zep]

A quick question, Qureshi. Is that your face you are using as your avatar?

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Donks
So that's it? The "serious discussion" was asking a couple of inane questions, and not answering any?

I'm SHOCKED! SHOCKED, I tell you!

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
Dear Dr. MAS

I am exhausted now. :D :D

bye

It is over to you. ;)

You are exhausted so early. :D

Anyway thanks. I am back online. You may take rest. ;)

[Dr. MAS]

MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na2SO4 solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 1023 of each of the component moieties of Na2SO4. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 1022 ....snip

I have already rejected the derivation of this equation. Although we have so for not offered any money on this equation but if skeptics say, they would like to prove this equation correct by submitting registeration fee then we can offer a handsome account.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I have already rejected the derivation of this equation. Although we have so for not offered any money on this equation but if skeptics say, they would like to prove this equation correct by submitting registeration fee then we can offer a handsome account.
You rejected what exactly? Did you reject that in 1 lt of a 1 molar solution of Na2SO4 solution there are 6.022 x 1023 of each of the components? By what stroke of homeopathic assertion are you rejecting that?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I have already rejected the derivation of this equation.You have done no such thing. So far, you have simply ignored it, and tried to substitute some laughable proposition about "Probability Law" that has nothing whatsoever to do with either probability OR chemistry.Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Although we have so for not offered any money on this equation but if skeptics say, they would like to prove this equation correct by submitting registeration fee then we can offer a handsome account. Why do we need to pay any money to YOU to prove what we already know to be true?

Oh, I see. You and Qureshi are not really two separate people, are you. You go, Qureshi appears. Qureshi goes, you appear. Quite mysterious!

Not.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Donks
You rejected what exactly? Did you reject that in 1 lt of a 1 molar solution of Na2SO4 solution there are 6.022 x 1023 of each of the components? By what stroke of homeopathic assertion are you rejecting that? Well, actually, there is a small mistake (or rather imprecision) in that statement, as BSM already acknowledged.

Because there are two sodium ions for each sulphate ion, then in a litre of 1 molar Na2SO4 solution there will in fact be 6.022 x 1023 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1023 sodium ions.

This isn't an equation, it's a simple numerical fact. To deny it is a bit like saying, I deny that the dots on the six sides of a die add up to 21. A bit of a facer if you're trying to discuss snakes-and-ladders tactics.

Mas, why do you say that there are not 6.022 x 1023 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1023 sodium ions in a litre of 1 molar sodium sulphate? Do you not realise that this is the basic definition? It's like saying that there aren't twelve apples in a dozen!

Rolfe.

[Gaga]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I have already rejected the derivation of this equation. Although we have so for not offered any money on this equation but if skeptics say, they would like to prove this equation correct by submitting registeration fee then we can offer a handsome account.
Did you? :eek:
The only answer I could find after some digging in your posts is some statement about the formation of new compounds. You didn't care to expand the concept beyond those assertions nor did you do the math to support them.
If there's something else that I overlooked please point it out and I'll stand corrected.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Well, actually, there is a small mistake (or rather imprecision) in that statement, as BSM already acknowledged.

Because there are two sodium ions for each sulphate ion, then in a litre of 1 molar Na2SO4 solution there will in fact be 6.022 x 1023 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1023 sodium ions.
Actually I noticed that, but I was too lazy to clarify the point. I was hoping someone else would come by and clarify it for me, thanks :p

[Rolfe]

Badly Shaved Monkey: Mas, let's say that you have three apples and six pears, therefore you have nine fruits altogether....

Mas: I have already rejected the derivation of this equation. Although we have so for not offered any money on this equation but if skeptics say, they would like to prove this equation correct by submitting registeration fee then we can offer a handsome account.

Rest of the Forum: :hb:

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Rest of the Forum: :hb:

Rolfe.
I find it a lot more therapeutic and entertaining to go shoot something in a videogame.

[Rolfe]

It is pretty scary though. Here we have someone who claims to have all sorts of advanced academic degrees, and comes here announcing that he's going to educate us all, and it turns out that in fact he doesn't actually believe that 2+2=4. And intends to reject any argument which is based on the premise that 2+2 does indeed equal 4.

The idea that this person is entrusted with anyone's healthcare is simply frightening.

Rolfe.

[Zep]

It's more serious than that, I suspect. I'm discovering painfully that MAS and the others from NCH have yet to pass GO on basic chemistry. Even Kumar's concept of water molecules building into big "chunks" of some wonderous hydrogen/oxygen "super-molecule" simply by shaking the bottle beggars belief. Children learn enough basic chemistry in the first 6 years of school - pre-high-school usually - to know this is ridiculous fantasy and unsubstantiated by fact, and yet here he is trotting it out as a "rational" explanation for how homeopathic remedies "work".

I can only take it that similar explanations by homeopaths are based purely and solely on religious faith in their nostrums, in spite of clear and obvious facts to the contrary. That is, it's a trolling exercise on Kumar's part. Which we knew almost from the start.

[Rolfe]

Consider: from Kumar, regarding what Mas has to tell us (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870859734#post1870859734):His silence can be alike silence before a storm & his speaking alike a storm. Just take care. You may learn something from him, then????what you said?Mas himself indicated he was well-educated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870851757#post1870851757)I have four bachelors and three master degrees with one Ph. D... I have done graduations in all relevant subjects of medical sciences, hence education or understanding is not problem.and cast aspersions on Geni's knowledge (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870857551#post1870857551):You are asking the same question again and again without understanding what I have replied to you. For God sake, try to study basic chemistry first.which is quite funny considering that Geni is in his final year of a chemistry degree at a very prestigious UK university.

So, after that build-up, what do we get? A denial that one litre of a molar solution of sodium sulphate contains a mole of sulphate ions.

:id:

Rolfe.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Rolfe
So, after that build-up, what do we get? A denial that one litre of a molar solution of sodium sulphate contains a mole of sulphate ions.Never mind that: we also have Qureshi, who "Dr." MAS clearly thinks is capable of carrying forward his argument (he appears to have (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1870928747#post1870928747) delegated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1870930341#post1870930341) the task to Qureshi) asking (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1870928528#post1870928528) what sodium sulphate is! This is someone who claims a doctorate in his sig!

To quote MAS:For God sake, try to study basic chemistry first.

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Consider: from Kumar, regarding what Mas has to tell us (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870859734#post1870859734):Mas himself indicated he was well-educated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870851757#post1870851757)and cast aspersions on Geni's knowledge (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870857551#post1870857551):which is quite funny considering that Geni is in his final year of a chemistry degree at a very prestigious UK university.

So, after that build-up, what do we get? A denial that one litre of a molar solution of sodium sulphate contains a mole of sulphate ions.

:id:

Rolfe.

News flash for MAS: Basic chemistry is a "relevant subjects of medical sciences"

All of those "degrees", and he apparently doesn't even understand very basic chemistry....

[Mouthfire]

You know... as long as MAS is still around, he can respond to this thread too: MAS's Qualifications (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56905)

[H'ethetheth]

- Q: How does homeopathy work?
- A: Dear children. Homeopathy works how homeopathy does work:
- delirium;
- excitement;
- talking in sleep;
- vertigo;


- Q: Really? How do the principles of homeopathy produce results if there's clearly nothing but evaporated water in the sugar or lactose pills?
- A: I have rejected this equation. Try to learn some basic chemistry.:D In Pakistan, we are really intelligent and important. I have got some pictures to show that we're really important, would you like to see the pictures? They're real, we've got families, and seminars and did I mention that we're actually very important? Look here's a picture of an important seminar, and another one. There's Dr. MAS, he's so modest. Look, he's sitting at the back like a working man, but he's actually very important. And he's manly too. He has managed to produce several children and a horse! Here's a picture of his children and his horse, with a nice green triangle to explain that Dr. Mas has managed to produce several children and a horse. Doesn't he look important and manly?
Look! Pictures!

Look look LOOOK!!!

IMPOOORTAAANT!!

PIIIICTUUURES!!!

I am exhausted now. It is over to you.:D :D ;)


Would that be a reasonable summary of this thread?
Originally posted by Rolfe
Rest of forum::hb:
Indeed.

[Zep]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
Would that be a reasonable summary of this thread?Yes, but with less technical stuff involved. Oh, and we believe the horse has a homeopath PhD too.

[flume]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I have already rejected the derivation of this equation. Then what on earth do you people teach all those students in your chemistry classes?

You have not explained WHY you reject this.

This is very strange.

[flume]

:mad: :eek: :(
:bricks:
:hb:

[flume]

Originally posted by flume
Then what on earth do you people teach all those students in your chemistry classes?

You have not explained WHY you reject this.

This is very strange.


Maybe this is a student's prank?

(oops, meant to edit my previous post)

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by flume
...Maybe this is a student's prank? I hope to God¹ it is. If it is, it's a good one. If it isn't, it corroborates my suspicion that inanity will bring about the end of the world.





¹ The proverbial God, that is.

[Rolfe]

See the learned meeting the veterinary society of which I am Hon. Secretary had last week. (It ran for 5 hours, 5pm to 10pm, but that includes the time to eat the dinner, so I wouldn't make too much of it.)

http://www.vetpath.co.uk/jref/athenaeum 006s.jpg

See the President, here with the Senior Vice-president.

http://www.vetpath.co.uk/jref/athenaeum 007s.jpg

The President thinks homoeopathy is witchcraft, and is amazed that anyone still believes in it in the 21st century. See the President's big gold chain! That proves the President must be right!

See all the learned Fellows attending the meeting.

http://www.vetpath.co.uk/jref/athenaeum 005s.jpg

All the chairs are occupied, which proves that everything I say must be right.

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Errr, uhmmm, Rolfe? You might want to get some new blood into that society of yours, they all look kinda old :D

/runs and hides

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by Donks
Errr, uhmmm, Rolfe? You might want to get some new blood into that society of yours, they all look kinda old :D

/runs and hides Actually, that was my first thought as well. That, and they don't seem to enjoy themselves very much in that first picture, despite their (no doubt wine-induced) rosy cheeks.

[Mr. Skinny]

That must be Rolfe near the center of the table in two of the shots, since there's only one female in the picture.

I always thought you were a bit younger, Rolfe.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
(no doubt wine-induced) rosy cheeks. Or perhaps that rosiness is induced by the vaguely awkward knowledge that each of them has of the other: that they have all, at some point in their lives, had their arm, up to the shoulder, inside a cow.


However, to return to topic (well, a bit)...


I doubt the "student prank" hypothesis (which will obviously increase said students' glee by 10%) - they'd have had to invent that whole Pakistan homeopathy society thing, and manufacture a web presence at least for MAS that seems to go back years, and design web pages, and produce photos of the same guy at various different places... I wish it was the case, but I fear these posters are at least one real person. And I fear more that they are as many people as they claim to be :(

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Donks
Errr, uhmmm, Rolfe? You might want to get some new blood into that society of yours, they all look kinda old :D

/runs and hides

No, no, no. Those vets are all probably in their thirties, including the Super Sexy Rolfe. Everyone in Britain over the age of 25 looks like that. It's from lack of sunlight. If you take them to Spain, expose them to sunlight and dip them in the warm ocean, they plump right back up and look just like Spice Girls/Boys. ;)

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Everyone in Britain over the age of 25 looks like that. It's from lack of sunlight. If you take them to Spain, expose them to sunlight and dip them in the warm ocean, they plump right back up and look just like Spice Girls/Boys. ;) Untrue. While the theory is sound, unfortunately this idea has not been borne out by experimental evidence.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Nucular
Untrue. While the theory is sound, unfortunately this idea has not been borne out by experimental evidence.

Well he is plump. And have you seen Ginger Spice lately?

[MRC_Hans]

It's not that they look old, it's the interiour "decoration" of that place :eek:. Unfortunately, it is not atypical. I wonder when the British will catch up with the rest of the universe and invent white (or at least light) paint.

Hans

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
It's not that they look old, it's the interiour "decoration" of that place :eek:... Are you saying that they don't actually look old, but the wall paint makes us think they do?:confused:
This could mean one of two things:

- White wall paint would make them actually look old and confirm our suspicion that they do.
- White wall paint would not change how they look, but make us change our mind about how old they look.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
Are you saying that they don't actually look old, but the wall paint makes us think they do?:confused:
This could mean one of two things:

- White wall paint would make them actually look old and confirm our suspicion that they do.
- White wall paint would not change how they look, but make us change our mind about how old they look. I'm just saying that the room looks worse than the occupants.

Hans

[H'ethetheth]

Ah! Pity.




:D

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Zep
It's more serious than that, I suspect. I'm discovering painfully that MAS and the others from NCH have yet to pass GO on basic chemistry.

If anybody proves that "BSM equation is equally applicable on all homeopathic potencies in the same way as BSM has applied on Nat Sulph", then WHCC will offer him/her a blank check. :D

:D :D :D

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
If anybody proves that "BSM equation is equally applicable on all homeopathic potencies in the same way as BSM has applied on Nat Sulph", then WHCC will offer him/her a blank check. :D

:D :D :D Seriously, MAS, could we get past all this prize nonsense?

You started this thread by promising to explain how homeoathy works. So far, you have made ONE post that that could be said to at least start to do just that.

How about you continue?

And if you claim that some rmedies have different chemistry, go ahead and explain how.

But stop demanding that we prove you wrong at every step of the way.

Hans

[Dr. MAS]

I will continue to explain how homeopathy does work.

I was responding on the few posts which were booked in my abscence.

OK i will not responde on those which are irrelevent.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Zep
A quick question, Qureshi. Is that your face you are using as your avatar?

Qureshi: You are so young. You look too old in this avatar. Which software you use? And where are your moustache and whiskers.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I will continue to explain how homeopathy does work.

Good, we eagerly await your next lesson ;).

I was responding on the few posts which were booked in my abscence.

OK i will not responde on those which are irrelevent.

Might I suggest we skip the endless bickering part. If you address the questions directly pertaining to your first lesson, most of which are given in the first page of this thread, I think most here will be reasonably happy.

Hans

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
If anybody proves that "BSM equation is equally applicable on all homeopathic potencies in the same way as BSM has applied on Nat Sulph", then WHCC will offer him/her a blank check. :D

:D :D :D

It's becoming readily apparent that you truly don't understand the equation.

How about this? Instead of just stating "I reject that equation", why don't you explain what the derivation means AND THEN explain why it does not apply to homeopathy.

I'm not going to hold my breath, because it's becoming very obvious that these diversionary tactics and wafering on this and that, are a smoke screen to hide the fact that you don't understand the topic.

It's very sad that a self-purported doctor has never studied elementary chemistry....



Edited for grammar

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
If anybody proves that "BSM equation is equally applicable on all homeopathic potencies in the same way as BSM has applied on Nat Sulph", then WHCC will offer him/her a blank check.

Not only is it applicable on all homeopathic remedies, it's applicable on everything from solutions of chemicals to piles of colored balls.

MAS, If you can't see that, then just leave and let the grownups continue the discussion. One sad thing is that you don't even understand how big a fool you're making out of yourself. But, the sadest thing is that there's an even worse bunch of people standing on the sideline applauding your high potency postings.

Amazing...

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Donks
Errr, uhmmm, Rolfe? You might want to get some new blood into that society of yours, they all look kinda old :D

/runs and hides I only noticed when I was copying the pictures, how I'd managed to home in on the geriatric contingent! The thing is, most of them are very senior scientists, with minds like the proverbial steel traps, so you tend not to notice the age when you're talking to them. There were some younger people there too, just not in range of the camera (well, I think one is visible just on the edge of one frame). And I took the bloody photos, from behind the camera, so stop casting nasturtiums!

But you have a point. It's become something of a senior partners' club, and getting the up-and-coming contingent on board is something that needs to be addressed.Originally posted by MRC_Hans
It's not that they look old, it's the interiour "decoration" of that place :eek:. Unfortunately, it is not atypical. I wonder when the British will catch up with the rest of the universe and invent white (or at least light) paint.Well, it's quite a big room. Which means that the flash on the camera didn't really do it justice. Some types of screen seem to show it up better then others (it wasn't bad on my notebook's LCD screen). It's actually the "Picture Room" at the Athenaeum Club (http://www.answers.com/topic/athenaeum-club) in Pall Mall, London, and it's nicer than it appears in the photos.

Rolfe.

[geni]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
If anybody proves that "BSM equation is equally applicable on all homeopathic potencies in the same way as BSM has applied on Nat Sulph", then WHCC will offer him/her a blank check. :D

:D :D :D

The general case? Not a problem:

for C remedies

F=I/n¹⁰⁰

For X remedies

F=I/n¹⁰

Where F is the final number it items per liter, I is the initail number of items and n is the potency. The highest posible value for I is about 6.02214*10²⁵ (athough the higest value I can think of would be 3.31218*10²⁵ for water). It is trivial to show that for large enough values of n F<1

[Rolfe]

Anybody care to estimate the chance that Mas will actually understand that?

Rolfe.

[geni]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Anybody care to estimate the chance that Mas will actually understand that?

Rolfe.

It's only very basic chemistry.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by geni
It's only very basic chemistry. Well, yes....

And your point is...?

Rolfe.

[geni]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Well, yes....

And your point is...?

Rolfe.

If he doesn't understand this what do we tell him to go and study?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
For God sake, try to study basic chemistry first. :(Ka-BOOM!! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870857551#post1870857551)

Rolfe. :c1:

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Qureshi: You are so young. You look too old in this avatar. Which software you use? And where are your moustache and whiskers. I do believe I ask Qureshi that question, not you, sir. I would hope he can answer for himself...some time soon... And it's only an aside and not germane to this discussion anyway.

Perhaps you might care to concentrate on providing our homeopathy lessons instead?

Many thanks...

[Gaga]

actually, also mas'avatar seems to be going under a process similar to the portrait of Dorian Gray... or maybe it's the cousin of mas. Also known as Dr. Mas.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Nucular
And I fear more that they are as many people as they claim to be :(

Worse still, they think they are being frightfully clever and giving us poor sceptics quite a run around.

Pitiable!

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Qureshi1_78
(1)What is Na2So4?



You ask for serious discussion. I agree.

One question is floated above (2) why did you take this?

(3) is it applicable on each potency of homeopathy? like belladonna, opium, plumbum met, arg nit etc

Please follow up point to point.

For goodness sake! I go away for a few days and all you bunch of homeopathic nitwits manage to come up with is that you don't even recognise high school chemistry.

You, Qureshi, are a so-called "Dr" claiming to be trained in a biomedical subject and you don't recognise the chemical formula of sodium sulphate. I think it is time for you to leave this to the grown-ups with a legitimate education.

Your reading comprehension also seems poor since little MAS prompted the specific using of sodium sulphate as an example.

Never mind treating real people with real medical problems, you shouldn't be crossing the road without an adult's assistance!

Is this poor imitation of the Marx Brothers or the Three Stooges really the best you can come up with?

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
For goodness sake! I go away for a few days and all you bunch of homeopathic nitwits manage to come up with is that you don't even recognise high school chemistry.

Your reading comprehension also seems poor since little MAS prompted the specific using of sodium sulphate as an example.





BSM,

You are non-practical person who believes what is written in books and never confirms the equation practically. You are trying to teach lesson who is highly qualified in the subject. (;))

I said, the equation does not apply on all dilutions but who cares? I know you don't have idea about homeopathic dilutions.

I say your equation is correct on paper but on homeopathic dilutions? Avogadros no theory does not apply on solutions like this.

Go and get admission in primary class school. You need to study few practical things.

If you prove the above equation you can win one million dollar.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I said, the equation does not apply on all dilutions but who cares?
We care. Just because you assert something, that doesn't make it true.
Do you agree that in a litre of 1 molar Na2SO4 solution there are 6.022 x 1023 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1023 sodium ions? If not, why not? Asserting that this "equation" does not apply to homeopathic dilutions is not a response. If you don't agree with these quantities, feel free to correct them, showing your math.

I know you don't have idea about homeopathic dilutions.
To quote Gabe Cash from the memorable movie Tango & Cash:
[Sylvester Stalone voice as imitated by Kurt Russell]You don't know *****![/Sylvester Stalone voice as imitated by Kurt Russell]
I say your equation is correct on paper but on homeopathic dilutions? Avogadros no theory does not apply on solutions like this.
Why not? Do you not agree that one mole of any substance contains Avogadro's number of molecules?
Go and get admission in primary class school. You need to study few practical things.
You might want to consider taking your own advice.
If you prove the above equation you can win one million dollar.
Is your prize up to $1 million dollars? Because Avogadro's number is an accepted and tested scientific principle, and not elligible for the paranormal challenge.

ETA: My guess is that you are about to vanish again for over a week, and will return and pretend no questions have been asked. Just like you just did.

[athon]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS


BSM,

You are non-practical person who believes what is written in books and never confirms the equation practically. You are trying to teach lesson who is highly qualified in the subject. (;))

I said, the equation does not apply on all dilutions but who cares? I know you don't have idea about homeopathic dilutions.

I say your equation is correct on paper but on homeopathic dilutions? Avogadros no theory does not apply on solutions like this.

Go and get admission in primary class school. You need to study few practical things.

If you prove the above equation you can win one million dollar.



Hey, in one post, it is all starting to make sense.

So science isn't about working models, or making events predictable by quantifying data...nothing is consistent in nature. That's why homeopathy works!!

Dr. MAS, can I ask, how are the dilutions for homeopathic solutions deduced if not using either standard chemistry equations or applying Avogadro's number? I'm assuming that you use a special equation for working out the figures. How is this worked out?

You see, I am a science teacher, and in the UK curriculum Homeopathy is not yet a science subject. Maybe in the future, no? We unfortuately still have to rely on the old, useless equations that most scientists have used successfully for the past century. If had have known we could do chemistry without equations...well, I would not have wasted my time teaching it.

Athon

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Donks
Is your prize up to $1 million dollars? Because Avogadro's number is an accepted and tested scientific principle, and not elligible for the paranormal challenge.

ETA: My guess is that you are about to vanish again for over a week, and will return and pretend no questions have been asked. Just like you just did.

Sorry it was one million ruppees.

Prove your simple high school chemistry application over homeopathic dilutions and win your prize.;)

Recently, I have appeared in FTJ. 2maro is my fifth paper. Yes, i am busy. There are total six theory paper and three practicals. Stay in touch! I will visit again.

[Zep]

Bravely he ran away, ran away, tra la...

http://www.dreambox.com/images/scratchboard/jester.jpg

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Donks
We care. Just because you assert something, that doesn't make it true.
Do you agree that in a litre of 1 molar Na2SO4 solution there are 6.022 x 1023 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1023 sodium ions? If not, why not? Asserting that this "equation" does not apply to homeopathic dilutions is not a response. If you don't agree with these quantities, feel free to correct them, showing your math.

Dr. MAS: I will correct on your thesis. Type your thesis (exactly in the thesis form) and send it to me. I will the expeneditures of your postage.


Why not? Do you not agree that one mole of any substance contains Avogadro's number of molecules?

Dr. MAS: your discussion is based on "there is no molecules in above 18c. I said, you prove this statement on papers and send it to me endorse with two ph.d doctors in the filed of chemistry. I will pay the postal charges.

You might want to consider taking your own advice.

Is your prize up to $1 million dollars? Because Avogadro's number is an accepted and tested scientific principle, and not elligible for the paranormal challenge.

ETA: My guess is that you are about to vanish again for over a week, and will return and pretend no questions have been asked. Just like you just did.

[Donks]

Nevermind, cross posted.

[Dr. MAS]

Bravely he ran away, ran away, tra la...

i am among those who do not hide something or afraid of any person.

Search "Dr. MAS", you will always find my name on homeopathic discussion and other boards" I never bothered somebody can enter in my computer and hack me. But you are so worried and afraid people. I am still here and will never fly away.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Prove your simple high school chemistry application over homeopathic dilutions and win your prize.;) Is this a new and different prize to the "Prove homeopathy is paranormal" one? Or just the same one with another basis for testing? If so, the deadline has already passed on that one, and so this is an empty promise (perhaps the Pakistani authorities would like to hear of huge but illegal prizes being offered that cannot be won fairly...).

Incidentally, your request has already been answered here multiple times, but it has become painfully obvious that you would not know a simple chemical equation if it jumped up and bit you on the backside. No wonder you aren't convinced - you don't understand even the simplest basic maths, let alone basic chemistry.

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Recently, I have appeared in FTJ. 2maro is my fifth paper. Yes, i am busy. There are total six theory paper and three practicals. Stay in touch! I will visit again. And "FTJ" is...what?

And would you be kind enough to share any one or more of your papers you mentioned with us? I'm sure we would be hugely enlightened about your huge knowledge of homeopathy.


Incidentally, I note that your avatar has now changed from some chap with a small beard and moustache (plus horse-cart!) to a clean-shaven person of a completely different face. In other words, you are now a different person, it would appear! I wonder if I can find that face somewhere else...

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
i am among those who do not hide something or afraid of any person.

Search "Dr. MAS", you will always find my name on homeopathic discussion and other boards" I never bothered somebody can enter in my computer and hack me. But you are so worried and afraid people. I am still here and will never fly away. Excellent!

Then please answer the questions on chemistry put to you by the above people. No namby-pambying about wanting us to post you OUR answers for you to correct, or some such lark. All that does is give you the information YOU should already know. And you have already had a significant amount of high-school chemistry posted here just to help you along to start with and give something to argue from anyway.

No, you are going to have to prove yourself here in public, I'm afraid. Go to it, Dr MAS - the floor is yours right here to put up your theories of how homeopathy does not use conventional chemistry, and to show us your astounding arguments as to how it DOES work. So far, going on your recent responses, you have not made a distinguished start, but we live in hope...


PS. I'm betting you will invent some pathetic excuse to NOT post anything remotely like we have requested...

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Dr. MAS: I will correct on your thesis. Type your thesis (exactly in the thesis form) and send it to me. I will the expeneditures of your postage.

Erm. Okay... how about I write a short sumary here and you correct me?

Dr. MAS: your discussion is based on "there is no molecules in above 18c. I said, you prove this statement on papers and send it to me endorse with two ph.d doctors in the filed of chemistry. I will pay the postal charges.
Okay, let's see. I guess the sumary can answer both your questions. But after I post this you better 1) show me where I'm wrong; 2) demonstrate an alternative that still explains all observations in chemistry relating to Avogadro's (now obsolete according to you) number.

Let's start with 1 litre of 1 molar Na2SO4 solution, which has (by definition) 6.022 x 1023 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1023 sodium ions. This will be the mother tincture.
For convenience I'll prepare one full litter of 18C remedy. At every step 10ml of the previous step is taken and succussed with 990ml of solvent.

First dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1021 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1021 sodium ions.

Second dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1019 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1019 sodium ions.

Third dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1017 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1017 sodium ions.

Fourth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1015 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1015 sodium ions.

Fifth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1013 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1013 sodium ions.

Sixth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1011 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1011 sodium ions.

Seventh dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 109 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 109 sodium ions.

Eighth dilution:. You now have: 6.022 x 107 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 107 sodium ions.

Ninth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 105 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 105 sodium ions.

Tenth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 103 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 103 sodium ions.

Eleventh dilution: You now have: ~60 sulphate ions and ~120 sodium ions.

Twelfth dilution: You now have: ~60% chance of having 1 sulphate ion, plus ~1 sodium ions.

Tirteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-1% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-1% of having 1 sodium ion.

Fourteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-3% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-3% of having 1 sodium ion.

Fifteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-5% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-5% of having 1 sodium ion.

Sixteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-7% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-7% of having 1 sodium ion.

Seventeenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-9% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-9% of having 1 sodium ion.

Eighteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-11% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-11% of having 1 sodium ion.

*All probabilities are approximate. I'll try to get more precise.

So there you go. 18C. You have a remote chance of having even 1 ion of the original mother tincture.

BTW: geni, Rolfe, BSM, Zep, could you check my math? I was in kind of a hurry.

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by Donks
BTW: geni, Rolfe, BSM, Zep, could you check my math? I was in kind of a hurry. Though I'm none of the above, I still have a small point. In the dilutions under 12C, wouldn't it be more complete to also state the chance that it varies significantly, say +/-5%?

Eta: Oh, and the number in the eleventh dilution should be 60, so you're off by a factor 10 from then onward.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
BSM,

You are non-practical person who believes what is written in books and never confirms the equation practically. You are trying to teach lesson who is highly qualified in the subject. (;))

....

Go and get admission in primary class school. You need to study few practical things.Sadly, BSM tells me he is going to stop posting because he can no longer trust himself to stay within the board's rules of civility as regards the MAS collective and Kumar.

So, just for the record, I think it should be stated here that Badly Shaved Monkey has a PhD degree in Molecular Biology from the University of Cambridge. In order to achieve a PhD it is necessary to do a great deal of practical research, at a level which it seems MAS cannot even begin to comprehend. Perhaps it is MAS who needs to enrol in primary school.

Sorry, I just thought that needed saying.

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
Though I'm none of the above, I still have a small point. In the dilutions under 12C, wouldn't it be more complete to also state the chance that it varies significantly, say +/-5%?

Eta: Oh, and the number in the eleventh dilution should be 60, so you're off by a factor 10 from then onward.
Thanks. I'll edit the post.

ETA: How does one pronounce your nickname?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Zep
Incidentally, I note that your avatar has now changed from some chap with a small beard and moustache (plus horse-cart!) to a clean-shaven person of a completely different face. In other words, you are now a different person, it would appear! I wonder if I can find that face somewhere else... Be fair, I'm not a tabby cat....

Rolfe.

[DrDave]

And don't forget to endorse it with two phd doctors in the filed of chemistry ;)

Dave

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by DrDave
And don't forget to endorse it with two phd doctors in the filed of chemistry ;)Well, Badly Shaved Monkey will do for one (I can email him), and I'll be the other, so we've got that bit surrounded....

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by DrDave
And don't forget to endorse it with two phd doctors in the filed of chemistry ;)

Dave
I'll get it endorsed by my 3 dogs. They know more chemistry than Dr. MAS, so he won't be able to tell the difference.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Donks
BTW: geni, Rolfe, BSM, Zep, could you check my math? I was in kind of a hurry.To prevent them evading the question by nitpicking, it might be an idea to make it more explicit that you are talking about 1 litre of the preparation at each stage.

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by Donks
Thanks. I'll edit the post.

ETA: How does one pronounce your nickname? I'm not sure if you understood the remark about the chances, but I'm working on that. I've got my statistics book in hand to figure it out. What I meant was that you give these numbers, but they're only the expected values. There is a chance that these numbers vary, and that chance gets bigger as the particles get more diluted. So my question would basically be: What are the odds that the number you give is off by 5%?
In the first 10 dilutions I'm sure I's a ludicrously small number, but I'd like to know precisely how small. So anyone who knows from the top of her/his head how to calculate this, do try! It's going to take me a while to get the statistics back into my head.

Also, my nickname is pronounced exactly like you think it's pronounced: Heth-eth-eth. Add 'eths' to taste.

[Donks]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
I'm not sure if you understood the remark about the chances, but I'm working on that. I've got my statistics book in hand to figure it out. What I meant was that you give these numbers, but they're only the expected values. There is a chance that these numbers vary, and that chance gets bigger as the particles get more diluted. So my question would basically be: What are the odds that the number you give is off by 5%?
In the first 10 dilutions I'm sure I's a ludicrously small number, but I'd like to know precisely how small. So anyone who knows from the top of her/his head how to calculate this, do try! It's going to take me a while to get the statistics back into my head.
I'm trying to work it out, dunno if I can get it under the edit deadline.

Also, my nickname is pronounced exactly like you think it's pronounced: Heth-eth-eth. Add 'eths' to taste.
Cool. Didn't know if it varied. I've only known a couple of people from the Neatherlands and they oth said their language was close to "inarticulate grunts."

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Donks
Let's start with 1 litre of 1 molar Na2SO4 solution, which has (by definition) 6.022 x 1023 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1023 sodium ions. This will be the mother tincture.
For convenience I'll prepare one full litre of 18C remedy. At every step 10ml of the previous step is taken and succussed with 990ml of solvent.

First dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1021 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1021 sodium ions.

Second dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1019 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1019 sodium ions.

Third dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1017 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1017 sodium ions.

Fourth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1015 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1015 sodium ions.

Fifth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1013 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1013 sodium ions.

Sixth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 1011 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 1011 sodium ions.

Seventh dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 109 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 109 sodium ions.

Eighth dilution:. You now have: 6.022 x 107 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 107 sodium ions.

Ninth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 105 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 105 sodium ions.

Tenth dilution: You now have: 6.022 x 103 sulphate ions and 12.044 x 103 sodium ions.

Eleventh dilution: You now have: ~60 sulphate ions and ~120 sodium ions.

Twelfth dilution: You now have: ~60% chance of having 1 sulphate ion, plus ~1 sodium ions.

Thirteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-1% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-1% of having 1 sodium ion.

Fourteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-3% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-3% of having 1 sodium ion.

Fifteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-5% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-5% of having 1 sodium ion.

Sixteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-7% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-7% of having 1 sodium ion.

Seventeenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-9% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-9% of having 1 sodium ion.

Eighteenth dilution: You now have: ~6.022 x 10-11% chance of having 1 sulphate ion and ~12.044 x 10-11% of having 1 sodium ion.

*All probabilities are approximate. I'll try to get more precise.

So there you go. 18C. You have a remote chance of having even 1 ion of the original mother tincture.OK, seems fine as amended.

* Endorsed by Rolfe, PhD in biochemistry.

Edited to add: Given that a homoeopathic dose is very much less than a litre of the relevant potency, it's worth pointing out that the molecule-free limit is in practice reached significantly earlier. If for example we assume that a drop of potency on a sugar pill is 0.1ml, then we're 4 orders of magnitude different. We actually begin to run out of molecules at the 10th dilution step.

Now we need MAS to explain why he thinks this is not applicable to homoeopathic dilutions. Simply asserting that it isn't is not enough, come on MAS, we want the arithmetic.

Rolfe.

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
i am among those who do not hide something or afraid of any person.

Oh, really??

Then you wouldn't mind addressing this thread: MAS's Qualifications (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56905&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)

The original post was made a full month ago, and yet no answer yet from MAS. It appears as though MAS does nothing but run and hide away from questions he doesn't like.

[H'ethetheth]

Okay then, I've got it.

I used a approximation of a binomial distribution by a normal distribution. (If you do not agree, you're welcome to compute factorials of numbers up to avogadro's number. My computer says anything above 170! is infinite).
I didn't actually calculate all the chances, because in most cases it's so close to zero, I can't even begin to grasp the smallness, and it involves solving a lot of integrals, which is tedious work. My textbook supplies a table in which I can look up the chances for normal cases.
For clarity: In the following, sigma is the standard deviation: A measure for the variance in the distribution of probability.
My table reaches up to 3.49 sigma. The chance of that happening is indicated as 0.0002, and the chance decreases exponentially, to give you an idea.
Also, I used a mother tincture of one Mole solute in one litre of water.

At 1C, a 5% deviation from the expected value (see Donks' post) lies at 8.154*10⁹ sigma (Yes, eight billion sigma).

At 2C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 8.149*10⁸ sigma.

At 3C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 8.148*10⁷ sigma.

At 4C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 8.148*10⁶ sigma.

At 5C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 8.148*10⁵ sigma.

At 6C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 8.148*10⁴ sigma.

At 7C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 8148 sigma.

At 8C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 814.8 sigma.

At 9C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 81.48 sigma.

At 10C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 8.148 sigma.
Remember, my tables indicate up to 3.49 sigma, and we're down to 60 particles. However we can now look up a chance since 1 particle more or less constitutes 1.6% deviation, so about 2.7 sigma. My book says the odds are 0.35% that there is one more particle, and of course also a 0.35% chance of one less. This amounts to 0.7% chance of seeing a deviation by one single particle.

At 11C, a 5% deviation from the expected value lies at 0.8148 sigma. But now we need a deviation of at least 0.4/0.6022 = 66% to actually find a single particle. This means that the chances of that happening are at 66/5*0.8148 = 10 sigma. This is a much smaller chance than donks gives of course, but this about taking a random 100ml sample out of 3.3 litres with a fair chance of having one particle in it, and pouring it back. Apparently you have to do this a ludicrous amount of times to be sure you actually sampled the particle once.

Eta: Before I forget, What does this mean?

The conclusion:

You will not find significant deviations from 1/100th of the solute, if you sample 1/100th of the total, ever. Until of course you arrive at the double digit numbers of solute particles, and when you get down to the point where you expect to find less than one particle, you can forget about finding particles altogether.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Zep
Is this a new and different prize to the "Prove homeopathy is paranormal" one?

Yes, because non-of the skeptic applied earlier they all failed to prove anything. Now I put it more easier.



Incidentally, your request has already been answered here multiple times,


And I multiple times rejected your theory based ideas which has no practical applications. If you say, no it has, you have a chance to bring them on paper (black&white) and send it to me. I will also pay the postage charges. Along with your name and address. Please endorse your theory with Ph.D Doctors with complete address.




And "FTJ" is...what?

FAZIL TIBB & JIRAHAT (four year course)

And would you be kind enough to share any one or more of your papers you mentioned with us? I'm sure we would be hugely enlightened about your huge knowledge of homeopathy.

Dear sir, we have all the answers of your questions and we can also prove it. Where we have to prove homeopathy in USA? Is there any chance to prove it in Pakistan? Can you send your representative. I will bear your expenditures.


Incidentally, I note that your avatar has now changed from some chap with a small beard and moustache (plus horse-cart!) to a clean-shaven person of a completely different face. In other words, you are now a different person, it would appear! I wonder if I can find that face somewhere else...

Few things are secret. :D If I would say anything, then...... Please keep quite.


Yes

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Sadly, BSM tells me he is going to stop posting because he can no longer trust himself to stay within the board's rules of civility as regards the MAS collective and Kumar.

Ask him not to post but send your theory to me on papers.

So, just for the record, I think it should be stated here that Badly Shaved Monkey has a PhD degree in Molecular Biology from the University of Cambridge.

he does not hold a Ph.D degree. I challenge you if he sends his theory (above) to me with his complete address. I will assure you the university will cancel his degree because a person who does not know the ABC of avogadro's application how dare he can claim of holding Ph.D


In order to achieve a PhD it is necessary to do a great deal of practical research, at a level which it seems MAS cannot even begin to comprehend. Perhaps it is MAS who needs to enrol in primary school.

Read above and go a head.

Sorry, I just thought that needed saying.

Rolfe.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Mouthfire
Oh, really??

Then you wouldn't mind addressing this thread: MAS's Qualifications (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56905&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)

The original post was made a full month ago, and yet no answer yet from MAS. It appears as though MAS does nothing but run and hide away from questions he doesn't like.

I do not hide anything. Ask to badlyshaved monkey to come like that if he holds ph.D (mc)

Picture, name, qualification, experience, occupation, addresses and phone nos. I am waiting.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Ask him not to post but send your theory to me on papers. It seems to have escaped your notice, but the purpose of this thread, (which you started, remember?) is for you to explain to us how homeopathy works. Not for anyone to explain their theories to you.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I do not hide anything.Good. You should be perfectly willing to say where and when you obtained the qualifications you have claimed then. This thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56905&perpage=40&pagenumber=1) would be an appropriate place for you to do this.

[Gaga]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
And I multiple times rejected your theory based ideas which has no practical applications. If you say, no it has, you have a chance to bring them on paper (black&white) and send it to me. I will also pay the postage charges. Along with your name and address. Please endorse your theory with Ph.D Doctors with complete address.

and multiple times refused to explain WHY it hasn't a practical application. Would you mind doing it?

Gaga, Dr. Phd. Grand Poohbah, Only Ruler of the Known World
(hey, he started the qualification race...:p)


edited für errori de spelling

[Donks]

So MAS makes an appearance and doesn't bother replying to my post? I put some work into it, you know? Not quite as much as H'eth<span style="font-size: 11px; line-height: normal">eth</span><span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal">eth</span><span style="font-size: 7px; line-height: normal">eth</span><span style="font-size: 5px; line-height: normal">eth</span><span style="font-size: 3px; line-height: normal">eth</span><span style="font-size: 1px; line-height: normal">eth</span> but still...

[Mojo]

It's interesting that in his current incarnation (new avatar and all), he only seems to have found this thread, and none of the other ones he used to post in.

[DrDave]

Mas,

Why the fascination with other peoples qualifications, photo's phone numbers, addresses?

You are the one coming here with an extraordinary claim, that you say you can prove and explain. So why not go ahead?

You question whether we are qualified enough to understand the explanations, as has been said before many of us have PhDs and/or degrees, so don't let that put you off.

In fact, it is a nice test of how well you understand a subject to have to explain it to someone who is not already familiar with it. I think that I could have a stab at explaining my PhD project to anyone who had completed even basic school chemistry (e.g. about age 15+). I would pick an area to begin, and then expand outwards, answering the resultant questions as I went.

You made the first post, which raised a number of questions, why not pick up again by answering some of these, and you can get back on track with your explanations.

And finally - since you have rejected Badly Shaved Monkey et als calculations, perhaps you could let us know how you would calculate the number of molecules at each step?

Dave

[Zep]

Is this a new and different prize to the "Prove homeopathy is paranormal" one?
MAS: Yes, because non-of the skeptic applied earlier they all failed to prove anything. Now I put it more easier.Actually, they didn't apply because you made it clearly impossible to do so. A number of us did actually want to apply, but all we got were your impossible demands about posting stuff to some backwater in Pakistan, where a bunch of unknown woofle-heads were going to sit in judgement on theses on subjects they obviously hadn't the first faintest idea about. All hidden on a private message board until it was way too late to reveal the truth - that the contest was a pure setup scam where you played fast and loose with the rules of the contest. Yes, MAS, you can pretend and huff up here all you like - we know the reality of your childish schemes to avoid answering questions! ;)

Anyway, if this really IS a new prize, and you really DO want to be fair about it this time, how about you publish the details in full in a public place on the Internet, and make it properly scientific this time. And then provide a link here in this forum directly to it, NOT just to your silly NCH website. Can you be trusted to be fair and do this?
<hr>
Incidentally, your request has already been answered here multiple times,
MAS: And I multiple times rejected your theory based ideas which has no practical applications. If you say, no it has, you have a chance to bring them on paper (black&white) and send it to me. I will also pay the postage charges. Along with your name and address. Please endorse your theory with Ph.D Doctors with complete address.And yet you offer no explanation whatsoever for your rejection, except for some dreadfully wrong woofle about "probability law". Well, you can see above that people way smarter than you have already investigated and published here a reliable and checked use of statistical probability of homeopathic dilution process that shows your own notions of probability are fanciful at best, downright stupidity at worst. Whch shows to me that you do not really have the knowledge necessary to graduate high-school, let alone apply for and receive a PhD in anything whatsoever.
<hr>
And "FTJ" is...what?
MAS: FAZIL TIBB & JIRAHAT (four year course)Four year course in what? I thought you had finished your courses and had graduated.
<hr>
And would you be kind enough to share any one or more of your papers you mentioned with us? I'm sure we would be hugely enlightened about your huge knowledge of homeopathy.
MAS: Dear sir, we have all the answers of your questions and we can also prove it. Where we have to prove homeopathy in USA? Is there any chance to prove it in Pakistan? Can you send your representative. I will bear your expenditures.You have all the answers and can prove them? Oh, well then - that's excellent. So how about sharing your proof with us here and now? And you don't need to go anywhere, nor us go to you. Simply prove yourself right here on the international Internet by giving us what you promised at the top of this thread that you would give us - a course in homeopathy. If you refuse, we can only assume you are lying about it everything - your qualifications, your "proofs", homeopathy, everything.
<hr>
Incidentally, I note that your avatar has now changed from some chap with a small beard and moustache (plus horse-cart!) to a clean-shaven person of a completely different face. In other words, you are now a different person, it would appear! I wonder if I can find that face somewhere else...
MAS: Few things are secret. If I would say anything, then...... Please keep quite. "Quiet". Really, you're the one who changed your avatar. It used to be the same picture as what appears to be a genuine Dr MAS at the NCH website, but now it is someone completely different. But I know who that person is too! Which tells me you are probably NOT the real Dr MAS at all, but one of his "students" who likes trying to be a silly little troll. Which explains a lot around here lately!

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
he does not hold a Ph.D degree. I challenge you if he sends his theory (above) to me with his complete address. I will assure you the university will cancel his degree because a person who does not know the ABC of avogadro's application how dare he can claim of holding Ph.D Mas, I know Badly Shaved Monkey, and his wife (and two children). They are personal friends of mine. They are also professional colleagues. This means that if I had any doubt at all that he was telling the truth when he told me he had a PhD from the University of Cambridge, it is easy for me to look him up in the Register of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to check. And there is his entry, right in front of me now. "27/6/87 VetMB Cambridge: MA, VetMB, PhD, MRCVS" And I know that it is necessary to prove to the RCVS that you have any qualification before they will include it in your listing in the Register - it was the same for my qualifications, including my PhD. Appearing in that book is absolute proof that you really do have the degree.

Now, you have to explain where he was wrong in his explanation of the application of Avogadro's number. You cannot simply tell someone that you disagree with their calculation, you have to point out where the mistake is.

So far you have not done that.Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I do not hide anything. Ask to badlyshaved monkey to come like that if he holds ph.D (mc)

Picture, name, qualification, experience, occupation, addresses and phone nos. I am waiting. Why do you ask for picture and name and address and phone number? (The last three of these are also in the Register entry in front of me of course, but I have absolutely no intention of revealing them here.) We have not asked you for any of these. You have volunteered some of them, but the fact that your picture keeps changing rather suggests the evidence isn't worth anything anyway.

We merely, in the other thread, asked where you studied for your qualifications, and how long each course was, and the year in which they were awarded, and which subjects you had to study. Most posters here who are unwilling to reveal their names and phone numbers will give that information - I have already posted most of mine for you, though you appeared to ignore it.

However, what relevance are qualifications to whether or not someone's argument is actually right? The question is, is the arithmetic about Avogadro's number that has been presented to you right, or not? You say you reject it. But you have not explained on what grounds. Until you do, your rejection is meaningless.

Donks and H'ethetheth have both posted clear calculations explaining the exact position with regard to the numbers of molecules expected in a litre of a range of homoeopathic dilutions. You wanted this countersigned by two PhDs in appropriate subjects, and I and Dr. Badly Shaved Monkey have done this (I imagine DrDave would make a third if necessary).

So now, please address these posts, and if you disagree, please explain where you think the calculations are wrong. If you can't, we will have to conclude that it is you who has not completed primary school education.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Mas, I know Badly Shaved Monkey, and his wife (and two children). They are personal friends of mine. They are also professional colleagues. This means that if I had any doubt at all that he was telling the truth when he told me he had a PhD from the University of Cambridge, it is easy for me to look him up in the Register of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to check. And there is his entry, right in front of me now. "27/6/87 VetMB Cambridge: MA, VetMB, PhD, MRCVS" Just bumping this thread to say that Badly Shaved Monkey tells me I was mistaken about the source of his PhD. Although his MA and VetMB degrees are indeed from the University of Cambridge, as recorded in the RCVS Register, his PhD was from the (equally prestigious) University of London.

Rolfe.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Mojo
It seems to have escaped your notice, but the purpose of this thread, (which you started, remember?) is for you to explain to us how homeopathy works. Not for anyone to explain their theories to you.

I have no plan to escape because I know what I have to do. How homeopathy does work? This is four years plan and it is cleary indicated in the subject. You want to understand in a day? I will continue to send posts to explain how does homeopathy work.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Mojo
Good. You should be perfectly willing to say where and when you obtained the qualifications you have claimed then. This thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56905&perpage=40&pagenumber=1) would be an appropriate place for you to do this.

Only that person can ask this question to me who will disclose his/her information in the same manner, as I have already disclosed in my profile which shahkeel sarwar made for me? because if I will say, I have done master from punjab university then you will ask my roll number? (as stated by paki member) When I will tell you the roll number and university registeration number then you will ask me what were the subjects, this shows that the questions will never end.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Mojo
It's interesting that in his current incarnation (new avatar and all), he only seems to have found this thread, and none of the other ones he used to post in.

Sheeeesh........ (silent);)

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Gaga
and multiple times refused to explain WHY it hasn't a practical application. Would you mind doing it?

Gaga, Dr. Phd. Grand Poohbah, Only Ruler of the Known World
(hey, he started the qualification race...:p)


edited für errori de spelling

What I have to explain when I found nothing in it. If you it has some matter you may try to win the prize on this ground.

[gtc]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I have no plan to escape because I know what I have to do. How homeopathy does work? This is four years plan and it is cleary indicated in the subject. You want to understand in a day? I will continue to send posts to explain how does homeopathy work.

So we can't expect an actual explanation until 2009?

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by DrDave
Mas,

Why the fascination with other peoples qualifications, photo's phone numbers, addresses?

Dave



Becos I beleive that they are lier. They are family members of the same house.

When they will reveal their identity. You will see a drama on the stage. I know how to catch them and handle them.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by DrDave
Mas,

And finally - since you have rejected Badly Shaved Monkey et als calculations, perhaps you could let us know how you would calculate the number of molecules at each step?

Dave



I have rejected this idea on some grounds because I know only an illeterate person can float this idea. BSM claims he is ph.d ask him/her to send this idea in true thesis format with references and endorse the signature of ph.d doctors.

I assure you, univeristy who issued him a ph.d degree will review its decission on that ground which I will provide with two ph.d doctors signature.

[Donks]

MAS: Are you going to adress mine and H'ethetheth's posts or not?

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Zep
Is this a new and different prize to the "Prove homeopathy is paranormal" one?
[b]

Anyway, if this really IS a new prize, and you really DO want to be fair about it this time, how about you publish the details in full in a public place on the Internet, and make it properly scientific this time. And then provide a link here in this forum directly to it, NOT just to your silly NCH website. Can you be trusted to be fair and do this?



The problem with me is that I am discussing with people who have their own priciple of understanding. They have in their mind that they will not accept anything.

Look at your above remarks:

First you said, publish the detail on internet on public place.

I published the detail on NCH web site which is the official web site of NCH. This is also a public place. The site is owned by government department. This also proves its authenticity.

You said, provide the link

Yes, the link was provided many times.

You called it a "silly" site. I have been on net for more than 15 years (approx). The user name "Dr. MAS" is also present in each discussion forum. You cannot point out a single word when my colleagues or me used such kind of words in discussion because I believe that only illeterate person who have no ground to prove his verdict use such words. This is also the outcome of psychological depression you have.





And "FTJ" is...what?
Four year course in what? I thought you had finished your courses and had graduated.




See, the prove. I posted earlier, a question was floated what is FTJ? I answered and here come another from Zep four years course in what? When I will explain it then you will ask more question?

"Graduated", yes i have done four bachelor degrees in different subjects and this is another medical profession course which purely deals with Study of plants at higher level, Type of medicines and it working and body chemistry.





<hr>
And would you be kind enough to share any one or more of your papers you mentioned with us? I'm sure we would be hugely enlightened about your huge knowledge of homeopathy.
You have all the answers and can prove them? Oh, well then - that's excellent. So how about sharing your proof with us here and now? And you don't need to go anywhere, nor us go to you. Simply prove yourself right here on the international Internet by giving us what you promised at the top of this thread that you would give us - a course in homeopathy. If you refuse, we can only assume you are lying about it everything - your qualifications, your "proofs", homeopathy, everything.

[b]

already answered.






<hr>
Incidentally, I note that your avatar has now changed from some chap with a small beard and moustache (plus horse-cart!) to a clean-shaven person of a completely different face. In other words, you are now a different person, it would appear! I wonder if I can find that face somewhere else...




I have the right to change my avatar whenever I will wish to do so. Any problem?

I know what you want to feed the administrator. I am not fool. :D

In this pic, i am standing with the president of pakistan. :D :D :D




"Quiet". Really, you're the one who changed your avatar. It used to be the same picture as what appears to be a genuine Dr MAS at the NCH website, but now it is someone completely different. But I know who that person is too! Which tells me you are probably NOT the real Dr MAS at all, but one of his "students" who likes trying to be a silly little troll. Which explains a lot around here lately!



What a cunning mind you have. :p (I know where you want me to take. :p )

I am dr.mas (ph.d) a jref member. ;)

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Mas, I know Badly Shaved Monkey, and his wife (and two children). They are personal friends of mine. They are also professional colleagues.



Oh my god, are they living in your house? You are the family member of BSM? :D







This means that if I had any doubt at all that he was telling the truth when he told me he had a PhD from the University of Cambridge, it is easy for me to look him up in the Register of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to check. And there is his entry, right in front of me now. "27/6/87 VetMB Cambridge: MA, VetMB, PhD, MRCVS" And I know that it is necessary to prove to the RCVS that you have any qualification before they will include it in your listing in the Register - it was the same for my qualifications, including my PhD. Appearing in that book is absolute proof that you really do have the degree.




Do you believe that after disclosing that info, I can reach at BSM? That's why I said earlier, I am fighting with illeterate persons.

I am setting an example for you in the same manner.

"2/5/86 Ph.D (Alt Med), QC&AMC Reg No. Q/C 5"






Now, you have to explain where he was wrong in his explanation of the application of Avogadro's number. You cannot simply tell someone that you disagree with their calculation, you have to point out where the mistake is.




I already answered. Read my reply with reference to belladonna dilutions, probablity law and also agno3 example of homeo man. I don't know where are these posts.




So far you have not done that.Why do you ask for picture and name and address and phone number? (The last three of these are also in the Register entry in front of me of course, but I have absolutely no intention of revealing them here.)




You can post it private. I assure you, I will use them for investigation and will not reveal your identity at any forum. Dr. Inam Ullah Mirza of pakistan ministry official is proceeding to UK in a month. I will give the task to verify your status in UK. You have to verify that the information contain in the register is linked with you. Or you are the same person. ok

I will also move to islamabad to talk to some health officials about the pandora box of this discussion. I will request them to send official letter to your education ministries to send information about your true status and qualification.

Before doing this I will take permission from you. I assure you I will not take any step without your permisison. Because in this unfruitful discussion I do not want to involve health officials. This is my gentleman promise, if you agree.

The second choice is, you send your certifications along with your avogadros thesis application to me. I think, this is easier for you.






We have not asked you for any of these. You have volunteered some of them, but the fact that your picture keeps changing rather suggests the evidence isn't worth anything anyway.




Avatar has no link with the discussion. you can place anykind of pic in your respective avatar according to the rules. There is no restriction to put real picture in the avatar. Ok




We merely, in the other thread, asked where you studied for your qualifications, and how long each course was, and the year in which they were awarded, and which subjects you had to study. Most posters here who are unwilling to reveal their names and phone numbers will give that information - I have already posted most of mine for you, though you appeared to ignore it.



your information was not complete. (follow my reply above)




However, what relevance are qualifications to whether or not someone's argument is actually right? The question is, is the arithmetic about Avogadro's number that has been presented to you right, or not? You say you reject it. But you have not explained on what grounds. Until you do, your rejection is meaningless.



WHEN YOU REJECTED "HOMEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK" AND I REQUESTED TO EXPLAIN IT ON WHAT AT WHAT GROUND THEN YOU DID NOT CAME UP WITH YOUR EXPLANATIONS.





Donks and H'ethetheth have both posted clear calculations explaining the exact position with regard to the numbers of molecules expected in a litre of a range of homoeopathic dilutions. You wanted this countersigned by two PhDs in appropriate subjects, and I and Dr. Badly Shaved Monkey have done this (I imagine DrDave would make a third if necessary).



Then why are you waiting... send it to me. A big prize is waiting for you. Remember you have to explain it with reference to homeopathy.




So now, please address these posts, and if you disagree, please explain where you think the calculations are wrong. If you can't, we will have to conclude that it is you who has not completed primary school education.



And you (so called ph.d's) failed to explained anything to primary educationist who also offered you million rs.




Rolfe.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Just bumping this thread to say that Badly Shaved Monkey tells me I was mistaken about the source of his PhD. Although his MA and VetMB degrees are indeed from the University of Cambridge, as recorded in the RCVS Register, his PhD was from the (equally prestigious) University of London.

Rolfe.



Rolfe, You please allow bsm to speak up. Don't speak from his side. Again you are misleading as usual.

What is his actual portfolio? We have our own resources to sort him out.

[Zep]

MAS:
The problem with me is that I am discussing with people who have their own principle of understanding. They have in their mind that they will not accept anything.

Look at your above remarks:

First you said, publish the detail on internet on public place.

I published the detail on NCH web site which is the official web site of NCH. This is also a public place. The site is owned by government department. This also proves its authenticity.

You said, provide the link

Yes, the link was provided many times.

You called it a "silly" site. I have been on net for more than 15 years (approx). The user name "Dr. MAS" is also present in each discussion forum. You cannot point out a single word when my colleagues or me used such kind of words in discussion because I believe that only illeterate person who have no ground to prove his verdict use such words. This is also the outcome of psychological depression you have.I'm sure it would not surprise anyone here to be informed that the NCH website that MAS refers to STILL does NOT have any information about ANY homeopathic challenge or prize or anything like that to this day. And yet the only link he provided was to the NCH website... Believe me, I've looked for it all over that site - spent a lot of time doing it too. The only vague reference is some half-baked riposte to a taunt, not unlike just a few posts above here, hidden deep in a thread of the attached discussion forum, which was, until not so long ago, available only to registrants of that forum. Certainly the forum is provided by a third party forum host, NOT the NCH website at all, but MAS never even linked to that. So much for your "public place", and "providing the links", MAS. I would have thought that a government-sponsored body would be a great deal more technically competent and honest than that.

As I said above, I am perfectly willing to apply for your challenges, but you never allow any of us to actually apply because there are no real challenges ever offered. The NCH site seems to be very static, and the last time I looked, you have long stopped posting on your own forum there. I am also perfectly willing to hear what you have to say here, as are many others, but you aren't saying anything! Is it any wonder we think you are a fraud?
MAS:
See, the prove. I posted earlier, a question was floated what is FTJ? I answered and here come another from Zep four years course in what? When I will explain it then you will ask more question?

"Graduated", yes i have done four bachelor degrees in different subjects and this is another medical profession course which purely deals with Study of plants at higher level, Type of medicines and it working and body chemistry.Your exact and complete response to my question about FTJ was: "FAZIL TIBB & JIRAHAT (four year course)". Do you remember that? And since I don't speak or read Urdu (and I'm assuming it's Urdu), I thought I would ask you to translate that course title for us. So would you mind?
Zep:
You have all the answers and can prove them? Oh, well then - that's excellent. So how about sharing your proof with us here and now? And you don't need to go anywhere, nor us go to you. Simply prove yourself right here on the international Internet by giving us what you promised at the top of this thread that you would give us - a course in homeopathy. If you refuse, we can only assume you are lying about it everything - your qualifications, your "proofs", homeopathy, everything.MAS:
already answered.Actually, not answered at all. No-one here can see any "proof" from you of anything. If you call your "Probability Law" theory an answer then you are sorely mistaken. As they say in the classics, "BZZZT! Try again!"
MAS:
I have the right to change my avatar whenever I will wish to do so. Any problem?

I know what you want to feed the administrator. I am not fool.

In this pic, i am standing with the president of pakistan.
...
What a cunning mind you have. (I know where you want me to take. )

I am dr.mas (ph.d) a jref member. I don't want to take a single thing to the Admins here. That's your own paltry excuse, not mine, and makes you look like you WANT to be persecuted for some reason. I'll tell you straight - we REALLY couldn't be bothered doing that. Leave if you like, but if you stay inside the rules while you're here, you won't even be considered for expulsion.

Sure, you can change your avatar if you wish, but I simply find it curious to see you using your own picture for a long time that matches the NCH pictures of "Dr MAS", then suddenly someone else's picture turns up who is not the same person. As I said, it's curious, but it does tend to indicate to the rest of the world, not just me, that there is more than one person operating the "Dr. MAS" account.

But this is all up to YOU to consider, not me. Use what you like, I could not be bothered reporting you.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Originally posted by Rolfe
Mas, I know Badly Shaved Monkey, and his wife (and two children). They are personal friends of mine. They are also professional colleagues.



Oh my god, are they living in your house? You are the family member of BSM?



Are you intentionally trying to look incredibly stupid?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
Are you intentionally trying to look incredibly stupid?
I think that's one of his natural talents.

And while I'm in a off-topic post, I'm glad to say that my NCH clone has finaly posted! Some incomprehensible little reply, so pretty much indistinguishable from my actual posts :)
Does John Richard BSc post here too? He obviously reads the forum, he asked my clone a question in French to find out if it was a me or not.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
Are you intentionally trying to look incredibly stupid?

Lord, why would he need to try.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS


We have our own resources to sort him out.




Does it involve a talking hat?

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by Zep
I'm sure it would not surprise anyone here to be informed that the NCH website that MAS refers to STILL does NOT have any information about ANY homeopathic challenge or prize or anything like that to this day.




I have no link with the site. I posted information about the previous offer on NCH discussion board which is a public place.





I would have thought that a government-sponsored body would be a great deal more technically competent and honest than that.


who is sponsoring jref offer? is the government involve in jref offer?



As I said above, I am perfectly willing to apply for your challenges, but you never allow any of us to actually apply because there are no real challenges ever offered.




Ok, I am busy in my exams, college teaching, clinical practice, seminar organizing and computer teaching. I have detailed "AAsi" who tried to get registeration three times at this board but was not allowed. I will ask him to get registeration again.

His email address is drss@pakwatan.com

If administrator is reading this post, I will request him to allow this person. He is living some 250 kilometers away from my city.







The NCH site seems to be very static, and the last time I looked, you have long stopped posting on your own forum there.



I have recommended to close the site, I have no link with site upgrade. Dr. Nasir ch has directed me to work on another government site. I am not impressed with the information at NCH web site. Although it is a good effort from non-homeopaths.








Sure, you can change your avatar if you wish, but I simply find it curious to see you using your own picture for a long time that matches the NCH pictures of "Dr MAS", then suddenly someone else's picture turns up who is not the same person. As I said, it's curious, but it does tend to indicate to the rest of the world, not just me, that there is more than one person operating the "Dr. MAS" account.



I will reply when the administrator will ask this question and I know he will not ask this question becuase he knows everything.

You have no right.




But this is all up to YOU to consider, not me. Use what you like, I could not be bothered reporting you.








I am leaving.... bye.

and take care.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I am leaving.... bye.

and take care.
Yes, run away.

Kind of sad, isn't it? This is the elite of the Pakistani homeopaths, the leader of the pack, the one they all look up to.
That'll teach me to invest more than 2 minutes into a post. Not even the courtesy of replying to it. I'd be pissed off if it wasn't exactly what I expected.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Donks
Yes, run away.

Kind of sad, isn't it? This is the elite of the Pakistani homeopaths, the leader of the pack, the one they all look up to.
That'll teach me to invest more than 2 minutes into a post. Not even the courtesy of replying to it. I'd be pissed off if it wasn't exactly what I expected.

I'm sorry Donks. :( I read and appreciate the posts though! All this stuff is helping me with my coursework now that I'm back in school. I just got an A on my paper on the scientific method and I had great examples from this board. :D

With Mas and the rest it's best just to stick to random insults. The ruder you are the more "you" will post on the NCH board. Feel free to do it in French; I'm always open to learning new insults in foreign languages.

[gtc]

FAZIL TIBB & JIRAHAT

I think Fazil may be the equivalent of a diploma or some such from a trawl of google. Though this is a bit of a guess.

Tibb seems to be an arabic word for a system of 'medicine' synthesised from 'Arabic, Greco-Arab, Hikmah, Unani, Islamic and Sufi medicine'

Tibb (http://www.crescentlife.com/wellness/tibb_whole_person_medicine.htm)

Jirahat means wound

Jirahat (http://www.interactiveislam.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=102) http://www.tayyebi.com.pk/td/FE/directors.php

All the directors of this company have the qualification what ever it is.

http://www.tayyebi.com.pk/td/FE/directors.php

This is a course which I guess may be something similar from the Mohsin Institute in England:

Prospectus (http://www.themohsininstitute.com/TS/contents/eastern_medicine_faculty/prospectus.pdf)

Still doesn't answer why someone who has umpteen PhDs should be studying this.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by gtc


Still doesn't answer why someone who has umpteen PhDs should be studying this.

Now he's claiming four bachelor's degrees. We need someone to do a postmortem on his education claims. I've lost track.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Donks
...Does John Richard BSc post here too? He obviously reads the forum, he asked my clone a question in French to find out if it was a me or not.

I think so... he even knows where I live! ooh, scary!

(or he figured out how many places in the USA are named after George Washington!!!... and which one is West)

Right now before I go to bed... the only phrase that is going through my head on this whole bit is something that I think is from the latest "The Incredibles" movie... or an impression I had from Edna the costume designer (I don't think she actually said it, just an impression):
"It is to laugh".

Okay, it is not the best phrase (and it might be from "Saturday Night Live"), but it pretty much explains what I am doing now.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
I'm sorry Donks. :( I read and appreciate the posts though! All this stuff is helping me with my coursework now that I'm back in school. I just got an A on my paper on the scientific method and I had great examples from this board. :D

With Mas and the rest it's best just to stick to random insults. The ruder you are the more "you" will post on the NCH board. Feel free to do it in French; I'm always open to learning new insults in foreign languages.
I'm not very good at cursing in French. Cursing in Spanish, OTOH, I excel at.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Donks
I'm not very good at cursing in French. Cursing in Spanish, OTOH, I excel at.

De verdad? Yo no puedo. Buenas noches, necesito dormir.

(y no se como use accentos en this keyboard tambien... plus I have not used Spanish in *cough*cough* thirty years)

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I have no link with the [NCH] site. I posted information about the previous offer on NCH discussion board which is a public place.It most certainly was NOT in a public place. It was well-hidden in a highly obscure little corner of a tiny little forum that is rarely visited by anyone (least of all your own NCH homeopaths, it appears). It could be no more hidden in public if you had published it in Urdu in the classified adverts of a Gujrat newspaper. Not only that, it was hardly a proper challenge at all - it was worded poorly, the rules were patently ridiculous, and it was beyond the ability of any human on Earth to even apply successfully. Do you think that was honest of you? The thing is, no matter how much you protest, you knew all this...
Zep:
I would have thought that a government-sponsored body would be a great deal more technically competent and honest than that.MAS:
who is sponsoring jref offer? is the government involve in jref offer?We are talking about YOUR offer, not JREF. You have said many times that the government of Pakistan supports your organisation. Or is this prize thing now only something you PERSONALLY offer? Not NCH? If so, another curiosity: How does a man who owns only a horse-and-cart, and who is a lowly teacher, provide a million rupees prize money for a challenge?
Zep:
As I said above, I am perfectly willing to apply for your challenges, but you never allow any of us to actually apply because there are no real challenges ever offered.
MAS:Ok, I am busy in my exams, college teaching, clinical practice, seminar organizing and computer teaching. I have detailed "AAsi" who tried to get registeration three times at this board but was not allowed. I will ask him to get registeration again.

His email address is drss@pakwatan.com

If administrator is reading this post, I will request him to allow this person. He is living some 250 kilometers away from my city.All "AAsi" has to do is apply for his own account here through the usual channels, just like everyone else did including you. The Admins won't ask if he is a homeopath or not, and they really don't care where he lives.

Also, as you have been told before countless times, the Admins don't read every post on this whole forum, and they certainly don't keep any watch on what you post any more than they do on my posts. So asking them here in this thread to do stuff is rather pointless - what you need to do is send a PM to Darat explaining what you want to say. That way it will be completely private too.
MAS:
I have recommended to close the [NCH] site, I have no link with site upgrade. Dr. Nasir ch has directed me to work on another government site. I am not impressed with the information at NCH web site. Although it is a good effort from non-homeopaths.I thought you were not linked to that site at all. If you are not, what has your recommendation to do with it at all? Surely that would be the job of the Webmaster there?

And from my browsing at the NCH site, it would seem that it is not so much a good effort by the non-homeopaths as a non-effort by the homeopaths...to even show up and post. Including yourself.
Zep:
Sure, you can change your avatar if you wish, but I simply find it curious to see you using your own picture for a long time that matches the NCH pictures of "Dr MAS", then suddenly someone else's picture turns up who is not the same person. As I said, it's curious, but it does tend to indicate to the rest of the world, not just me, that there is more than one person operating the "Dr. MAS" account.MAS:
I will reply when the administrator will ask this question and I know he will not ask this question becuase he knows everything.

You have no right.??? I have no idea what you are saying here. Could you please explain more clearly.




Now let's have a diversion: Here's an interesting picture. Let's just look at some faces, shall we?

http://nch8.tripod.com/seminar/Jlm4.jpg
http://nch8.tripod.com/seminar/Jlm4.jpg

From the right, front row, fourth person (black&white sweater, scarf) is "Dr MAS". Next along (grey sweater) is a face that I suspect is the older gentleman who has appeared as MAS's avatar. I looked for a clean-shaven face who might have been the subject of MAS's other recent avatar, and the gentleman behind MAS's left shoulder (partially obscured) could fit the bill.

[DrDave]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS


Becos I beleive that they are lier. They are family members of the same house.

When they will reveal their identity. You will see a drama on the stage. I know how to catch them and handle them.



This is funny coming from the person who was caught behaving in this manner. Personally, I would prefer to see the drama take the form of you answering questions, and explaining how homeopathy works rather than accusing people of things that you were caught doing.

Back to the subject, you claim that AgNO3 when dissolved and diluted will not have the number of molecules at each stage of the dilution that has been calculated here. We have done our work and calculated how many of each species are expected to be present at each stage, and H'ethetheth took into account your hand-wavy mention of probability law and calculated the odds of deviating a small amount from these numbers. The odds are astronomical, my own initial attempts at calculating the probabilities failed due to the sheer size of the numbers involved - I don't have a calculator or computer which will deal with numbers of this scale easily. I could have put more effort in and worked around this, but my approximate calculations agreed with Donks' numbers to within an order of magnitude, and when we are talking of numbers this small or this large, what's 0.00000000000000001% or so between friends?! Anyway, H'ethetheth put some calculations up and you have again soundly ignored them, so why should we bother doing them again?

So, as you seem to have an aversion with Avogadro, lets remove this complication. Pick any volume of water containing any number of molecules of AgNO3, then tell us what happens at each stage of the serial dilution? If you like, tell me what you believe happens when your x molecules of AgNO3 are initially dissolved in the water and I'll happily run the calculations for the further steps.

Dave

[flume]

Originally posted by DrDave So, as you seem to have an aversion with Avogadro, lets remove this complication. Pick any volume of water containing any number of molecules of AgNO3, then tell us what happens at each stage of the serial dilution? If you like, tell me what you believe happens when your x molecules of AgNO3 are initially dissolved in the water and I'll happily run the calculations for the further steps.I wish someone who is familiar with the chemistry could talk in detail about what would happen with AgNO3 mixed with an ethanol/water mixture (e.g. 95%, 90%, 70%) or with absolute ethanol. I think Homeo Man's point about silver nitrate assumed a reaction with ethanol. anor7?? said something about the silver being deposited on the sides of the tube.

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I have no plan to escape because I know what I have to do. How homeopathy does work? This is four years plan and it is cleary indicated in the subject. You want to understand in a day? I will continue to send posts to explain how does homeopathy work. It would help if you would actually start explaining.

[flume]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
If anybody proves that "BSM equation is equally applicable on all homeopathic potencies in the same way as BSM has applied on Nat Sulph", then WHCC will offer him/her a blank check. Dr. MAS,
In this quote I think you are saying that the equations BSM describes for Nat Sulph do NOT apply to other homeopathic remedies.

Does this quote mean you agree that the equations DO APPLY to Nat Sulph?

[Gaga]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
What I have to explain when I found nothing in it. If you it has some matter you may try to win the prize on this ground.



ooh, let's put it in plain terms. It has already been done by virtually every user here but you know, repetita iuvant.
- you said it is not applicable
- you didn't explain why it is not applicable. Just making some confused and unsupported statement doesn't qualify as an explanation.
The more I read your posts and the more I think you are an uneducated teenager troll. You know what you should do to look believable, you don't do it, therefore either you cannot and all your bragged qualifications are mud or you don't want and you're purposely trolling this board.
I don't think that you're dense to the point of not understanding the issues being raised, because that would mean lacking the minimum amount of neurons needed to survive...

And for god's sake stop blathering about prizes, this is a discussion board not the fair of islamabad...

p.s. couldn't we create a monthly 'Kumaresque Language Award'? that post would qualify!

[Zep]

Y\'know, I think we should do just that - a Kumaresque Language Award, to be awarded for the most preposterous, positively pointless piece of piffle per post (PPPPPPP).

Should be good! :D

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Only that person can ask this question to me who will disclose his/her information in the same manner, as I have already disclosed in my profile which shahkeel sarwar made for me? because if I will say, I have done master from punjab university then you will ask my roll number? (as stated by paki member) When I will tell you the roll number and university registeration number then you will ask me what were the subjects, this shows that the questions will never end. MAS, I've responded on the relevant thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56905&perpage=40&pagenumber=4), as I have the pointless inclination not to derail this train wreck still further.

Having had 37 days to digest your first lecture, I think we're all pretty much there, even Rolfe & BSM :rolleyes:. Please give your next lecture as soon as possible, or - an eventuality which would make me fall off my chair - answer the questions which arose from the first lecture.

[Rolfe]

I've been here before, and I'm revisiting it. Is there any point to this? Mas doesn't understand what Donks posted, and he doesn't understand what H'ethetheth posted, and I actually doubt if he could add up two and two and get four.

He thinks that assertions that I'm living with BSM (I think Mrs. BSM would have something to say about that!) and so on will distract us, but it's obvious that he's functionally innumerate.

Rolfe.

[Zep]

...or he's simply an illiterate troll child, unrelated at all to the REAL Dr MAS.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Zep
...or he's simply an illiterate troll child, unrelated at all to the REAL Dr MAS.
Hold on here, are you proposing that he is posing as the phoney Dr. MAS and really doesn't have those worthless schmatta degrees in all those subjects?
A poseur's poseur, as it were.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
Hold on here, are you proposing that he is posing as the phoney Dr. MAS and really doesn't have those worthless schmatta degrees in all those subjects?
A poseur's poseur, as it were. Hmmm, could be. Reminds me of a story in my local paper* warning people about a conman going around "posing as a bogus official". Could that have been this guy too?



*Mind you, that was the same paper that informed us that on Christmas day at 3pm the film Chitty Chitty Gang Bang was to be shown.

[supercorgi]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Does it involve a talking hat?

:dl:

Oh PN you made me snort my soda! Ow!

I've been following this thread but have finally decided to stop wasting my time. Mas is basically saying that homeopathy works because it's magic (i.e. physical laws of the real world do not apply). Ta da! He's obviously a complete fraud with a set of manufactured credentials and you valiant posters are never going to get anywhere with him.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Zep

Now let's have a diversion: Here's an interesting picture. Let's just look at some faces, shall we?

http://nch8.tripod.com/seminar/Jlm4.jpg
http://nch8.tripod.com/seminar/Jlm4.jpg

From the right, front row, fourth person (black&white sweater, scarf) is "Dr MAS". Next along (grey sweater) is a face that I suspect is the older gentleman who has appeared as MAS's avatar. I looked for a clean-shaven face who might have been the subject of MAS's other recent avatar, and the gentleman behind MAS's left shoulder (partially obscured) could fit the bill. Hey, Zep, you didn't save this pic, did you? The link doesn't seem to work.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Mojo
Hey, Zep, you didn't save this pic, did you? The link doesn't seem to work. Yeah, I saw it was a Tripod hosted image and wondered how long it would last. Pfeh.

If you go here (http://www.nchpakistan.com/) and use their Picture Gallery (off the menu to the left), it is about the third picture in that album - the outdoor one without the Boiron sign in the background.

[Jeff Corey]

I noted a "Lady Doctor" in that rogues gallery.
What the hey is that? A homeopathic OB/GYN?

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Zep
Yeah, I saw it was a Tripod hosted image and wondered how long it would last. Pfeh.
....

Right click on the link... select Properties. Then select with your mouse the file name, do a ctrl-C, bring up a browser window and do a ctrl-V in the address bar.

[flume]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
I noted a "Lady Doctor" in that rogues gallery.
What the hey is that? A homeopathic OB/GYN? I think a Lady Doctor must be a homeopath who is a woman.

[H'ethetheth]

:dio:

[clarsct]

Ah..

Have the homeopaths once again bravely run away?

*sigh*

I was hoping that by this time we had gotten past high school chemistry....maybe not. I guess you were right on the other thread, Rolfe...I'm not sure what passes for education over there, but high school chemistry obviously isn't on the list.



"When numbers reared their ugly heads, he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave, Brave, Brave, Brave, Braaaaave...Dr MAS..."

(With apologies to Monty Python)

[Zep]

And a quick look over on the NCH website and forum (www.nchpakistan.com) shows they have run away even from their own website. The most recent excuse for non-appearance is that the current heatwave in Pakistan is forcing the homeopaths to relocate to cooler locations in the hills...that do not have Internet access, it seems. However the rest of the population are staying put and toughing it out, by all indications.

I also note a VERY strange entry in a thread I browsed there, where one NCH homeopath gives a full broadside to Dr MAS - he is disgusted with him, apparently, for failure to show up on their own forum! Well well! :)

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Zep
I also note a VERY strange entry in a thread I browsed there, where one NCH homeopath gives a full broadside to Dr MAS - he is disgusted with him, apparently, for failure to show up on their own forum! Well well! :)
You will also notice that the administrator of the board complains that "Dr." MAS is dissuading people from posting there, just like he was against the web forum from the beginning.

Wasn't it "Dr." MAS who bragged about them having a forum where a skeptic was a moderator?

[MRC_Hans]

My general conclusion on this and earlier incidents is that the Pakistani homeopathic community, is divided in pro et contra Dr. MAS. He has a fan group, but a large part of the community has him in low esteem. It is only the usual solidarity that keeps them from denouncing him more outright. ... That and perhaps a bit of fear, since he seems to have friends in high places.

Hans

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Zep
The most recent excuse for non-appearance is that the current heatwave in Pakistan is forcing the homeopaths to relocate to cooler locations in the hills...that do not have Internet access, it seems.So they came over here full of arrogance and condescension, and then after finding they couldn't hold their own even in a very basic discussion on what they claim to be expert in, they literally ran for the hills.

Deeply disappointing, and it'd be amusing too, if it wasn't for the fact that it seems they're actually 'treating' some of the people who need real medical treatment the most in the world.

I've heard Pakistani homeopathy used as an argument about how we should regard it in the West - that their homeopaths are seen as equal to medical doctors, and the two disciplines sit side-by-side as a brilliant medical system... can't wait to give the example of MAS and his absurd friends to counter the feeble weight this argument held in the first place.

MAS, cheers! You showed us first hand exactly what Pakistani homeopathy really consists of.

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Zep
And a quick look over on the NCH website and forum (www.nchpakistan.com) shows they have run away even from their own website. The most recent excuse for non-appearance is that the current heatwave in Pakistan is forcing the homeopaths to relocate to cooler locations in the hills...that do not have Internet access, it seems. However the rest of the population are staying put and toughing it out, by all indications.

I also note a VERY strange entry in a thread I browsed there, where one NCH homeopath gives a full broadside to Dr MAS - he is disgusted with him, apparently, for failure to show up on their own forum! Well well! :)

Heheh.... look at the bottom of the homepage. Apparently, they are opening a new "Homeopathy free hospital". Does this mean that they are opening a hospital that is free from homeopathy?!?

There is progress after all....

;)

[steenkh]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
My general conclusion on this and earlier incidents is that the Pakistani homeopathic community, is divided in pro et contra Dr. MAS. He has a fan group, but a large part of the community has him in low esteem. It is only the usual solidarity that keeps them from denouncing him more outright. ... That and perhaps a bit of fear, since he seems to have friends in high places.

You may be right. I do note, however, that MAS' opponents have not exactly filled the vacuum at NCH! They are probably as clueless as his supporters on how to defend homoeopathy.

Which may be a good thing.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Here's (yet another) oddity about that site.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=49&hl=

The anonymous voice of NCH has this as 'her' Sig Line;

"Lady Doctor (Consultant Homeopath)
B.Sc (Zool, Bot & Chem), Four Years Passed DHMS (Homeopathy), M.A
Student of BHMS."

How can you pass DHMS and be only a student of BHMS?

Also, does anyone else find John Richard at that forum a bit odd? He seems to live in a bubble at that site but makes no reference to any existence outside that forum, whether here at JREF or tackling homeopaths on their more active forums, though it was his stated aim to seek out homeopaths.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
How can you pass DHMS and be only a student of BHMS?I don't know, but could the D be diploma, and the B bachelor?

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
I don't know, but could the D be diploma, and the B bachelor?

Rolfe.

I thought of that, but I thought it was the D'sHMS who wanted to be called Doctor. Maybe I've got that confused and it was the B'sHMS wanting to be called Dr, because Indian real medics are MB BS like in the UK and called Dr as a courtesy.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey

Also, does anyone else find John Richard at that forum a bit odd? He seems to live in a bubble at that site but makes no reference to any existence outside that forum, whether here at JREF or tackling homeopaths on their more active forums, though it was his stated aim to seek out homeopaths.

John Richard, Rolfe's given me a heads up and you're off the hock. Sorry, mate.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I thought of that, but I thought it was the D'sHMS who wanted to be called Doctor. Maybe I've got that confused and it was the B'sHMS wanting to be called Dr, because Indian real medics are MB BS like in the UK and called Dr as a courtesy. I honestly don't know, it was just a guess at a rational explanation for a D apparently being a lower qualification than a B. But then, rational? These jokers?

Rolfe.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Here's (yet another) oddity about that site.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=49&hl=

How can you pass DHMS and be only a student of BHMS?



Visit this homepage
www.homeo.top.ms

read all pages in detail. You will get answers of your questions.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Visit this homepage
www.homeo.top.ms

read all pages in detail. You will get answers of your questions. It would have been easy and simple for you to have simply told us, but I'll do your work for you this time.

:con2:

BHMS = Bachelor in Homoeopathic Medical Science
DHMS = Diploma in Homoeopathic Medical System

[Dr. A Sheikh]

yes, correct!

Ok what is your next question?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
yes, correct!

Ok what is your next question? Why didn't you just tell us this information straight out way back at the beginning of all this thread, MAS?

[flume]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Ok what is your next question? We could go back to the sodium sulphate dilution questions. They are somewhere back in this topic.

[H'ethetheth]

Or on to the second 'year of DHMS course'.

[Zep]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
Or on to the second 'year of DHMS course'. No, that would entail learning about sodium thiosulphate. After that, it's the heady heights of sodium hypochlorite!

[H'ethetheth]

Originally posted by Zep
No, that would entail learning about sodium thiosulphate. After that, it's the heady heights of sodium hypochlorite! But surely, the revered Dr. MAS could tell us about balonium hypocrite, potassium homeotripe and cranium suffocate before that?

[Zep]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
But surely, the revered Dr. MAS could tell us about balonium hypocrite, potassium homeotripe and cranium suffocate before that? That's for the Bachelor's course. Another four years for that one!

[H'ethetheth]

Crikey!

[Mojo]

Perhaps he'll also get around to explaining to Qureshi what sodium sulphate (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1870928528#post1870928528) is.

[Zep]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
Crikey! That's right, cobber! But don't worry - according to MAS's method, you can study for both together along with simultaneously studying computers and getting degrees there, inventing new degrees that need no studying, calling each section of your course a degree and getting yet another certificate, setting up websites and forums, arguing with the head of school, organising seminars, attending them, catering food for 100 people, taking photos of same, posting them on your websote, printing and posting homeopath certificates, mowing the school lawn, handing out clocks, driving the horse-and-cart to see patients, raising the children, going away for two weeks in the hills away from the heat, and doing a little homeopathic doctoring in the spare moments. Stick a broom up your arse and you can also sweep the floors while you do all that! :D

[H'ethetheth]

I think another "Crikey!" is in order.

[Zep]

Originally posted by H'ethetheth
I think another "Crikey!" is in order. Yes, I expressed a level of incredulity too. :D

[ETA smilie]

[Dr. A Sheikh]

How does homeopathy work? Although it was four years course but a member at NCH forum explained it in few paragraph. Those who were unhappy with Dr. MAS explanation which was based on four years, they can understand it in five minutes. Visit the link:

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=50&st=0

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
How does homeopathy work? Although it was four years course but a member at NCH forum explained it in few paragraph. Those who were unhappy with Dr. MAS explanation which was based on four years, they can understand it in five minutes. Visit the link:

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=50&st=0
I just see a load of psychobabble mixed in with some technobabble.

[andycal]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
How does homeopathy work? Although it was four years course but a member at NCH forum explained it in few paragraph. Those who were unhappy with Dr. MAS explanation which was based on four years, they can understand it in five minutes. Visit the link:

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=50&st=0

Errr, no, all it says is "Homeopathy does work". It doesn't explain how it works, why it works or anything.

After all these pages, all these avoided questions, all this utter, utter, UTTER nonsense, trolling, obfuscation, more nonsense and absolute crap, you now are saying "It just works, just believe us".

Pointing us to a website that says "It works but you have to treat each sympton individually" is just more rubbish, it doesn't answer anything.

You are a troll, a whole troll and nothing but a troll.

Or, you're an idiot. My vote is both.

[Jeff Corey]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
How does homeopathy work? Although it was four years course but a member at NCH forum explained it in few paragraph. Those who were unhappy with Dr. MAS explanation which was based on four years, they can understand it in five minutes. Visit the link:

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=50&st=0 [/QUOTE
Sorry, that proves nothing.
Homeopathy is a fraud and so are you and Mr. MAS.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
How does homeopathy work? Although it was four years course but a member at NCH forum explained it in few paragraph. Those who were unhappy with Dr. MAS explanation which was based on four years, they can understand it in five minutes. Visit the link:

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=50&st=0 Uhhh, it seems the "five minute explanation" ran into a little bit of flak ;). Perhaps it was because it just reiterated Hahnemann's ancient claims that have been refuted so often before?

Hans

[Zep]

Wow, it sure ran into some trouble there!

[MRC_Hans]

Yeah, actually it is what bomber pilots used to refer to as "flak so thick you could walk on it". And well short of the target area, even ;).

To sum up what he got right would amount to: "Arsenic is a poison" and "What homeopaths call an Ars profile is what homeopaths call an Ars profile".

I wonder if I could sell these people the deed to a bridge I have laying about somewhere. They seem to be made of the right stuff :rolleyes:.

Hans

[Zep]

Actually, I would hope some of their "students" and "classmates" would read the forum there. But I doubt they will be allowed to. ;)

That place is unusual for a homeopath forum - I would have expected such questions and posters would have been deleted by now - the usual "Stalin's airbrush" thing. Do you know why that isn't so, Hans?

[MRC_Hans]

Well, that was their declared policy, to allow skepticism. And of course, in the skeptic forum, the moderator wouldn't do that sort of thing ;).

To be fair, Otherhealth has been quite permissive, lately. Hpathy isn't too bad, either, except for Sigi's moving critical threads to the Chit-chat forum. But of course, the meagre skeptical representation there has been keeping a fairly low profile. If we were to go into the normal threads and, for instance, tell the guy who is fearing an overdose that he needn't worry, things might get nasty again.

Hans

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by andycal
You are a troll, a whole troll and nothing but a troll.

Or, you're an idiot. My vote is both.

Thanks!

We are use to read such mails daily. These are passing over our heads. :D

I think we have succeeded in our mission. The signs of anxiety and depression has been started to come among the skeptics. ;)

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
[B][b][COLOR=indigo]
Homeopathy is a fraud and so are you and Mr. MAS.

Homeopathy is a fraud? Ok prove it. :p

A prize is also waiting for you.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Thanks!

We are use to read such mails daily. These are passing over our heads. :D

I think we have succeeded in our mission. The signs of anxiety and depression has been started to come among the skeptics. ;)
If your mission was to show that Dr. MAS and his followers are all imbeciles then you have succeeded. If you wanted to entertain us in the way of the court jester of medieval times, then you have also succeeded. If you wanted to show that there are several villages missing their idiot, you have also succeeded.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Well, that was their declared policy, to allow skepticism. And of course, in the skeptic forum, the moderator wouldn't do that sort of thing ;).

To be fair, Otherhealth has been quite permissive, lately. Hpathy isn't too bad, either, except for Sigi's moving critical threads to the Chit-chat forum. But of course, the meagre skeptical representation there has been keeping a fairly low profile. If we were to go into the normal threads and, for instance, tell the guy who is fearing an overdose that he needn't worry, things might get nasty again.

Hans

You must give cradit to NCH Pakistan where you have been appointed as "Full Fledge Moderator" beside Dr. MAS group of critcism.


At otherhealth forum you are under observation by Lisa Annan. You daily receive warnings from her. :D

At hpathy Sigi is the most non-sense moderator of its kind. He disclosed the IP address of a member publically in general discussion forum and when that member pointed out, the all time big liar Manish Bhattia deleted the post of that poster with remarks "abusive language used", although I am witnessed to that thread, that member only said, "sigi you are not in your senses, you publically disclosed my identity and committed crime". Is this abusive utter? Shame on hpathy team a big liar group.

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Homeopathy is a fraud? Ok prove it. :p

A prize is also waiting for you.
There is no prize. It, you, Mr. MAS and the horse you rode in on are all frauds. Fakes, phonies, charlatans, scum and not nice people.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
At hpathy Sigi is the most non-sense moderator of its kind. He disclosed the IP address of a member publically in general discussion forum and when that member pointed out, the all time big liar Manish Bhattia deleted the post of that poster with remarks "abusive language used", although I am witnessed to that thread, that member only said, "sigi you are not in your senses, you publically disclosed my identity and committed crime". Is this abusive utter? Shame on hpathy team a big liar group.

Like ferrets in a sack?

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Thanks!

We are use to read such mails daily. These are passing over our heads. :D

I think we have succeeded in our mission. The signs of anxiety and depression has been started to come among the skeptics. ;)

Heheh... don't fool yourself.... The only thing you're doing is making homeopaths look like total bumbling idiots.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Homeopathy is a fraud? Ok prove it. :p

A prize is also waiting for you. OK, "Dr." Sheikh, let's ask you a few questions.

Do you accept that matter (as we observe it) is composed of atoms?

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
I think we have succeeded in our mission. The signs of anxiety and depression has been started to come among the skeptics. ;) What, your mission was to make us get anxious and depressed?

I think you're confusing these emotional states with exasperation and irritation; but I guess this inaccuracy of diagnosis is to be expected from you.

But, if believing we are anxious and depressed will move you on to your next 'phase' of 'attack', as I wonder if you're hinting, then by all means, believe we are anxious and depressed and get going on whatever you want to do next. Whatever it is, I doubt you can surprise us.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Homeopathy is a fraud? Ok prove it. :p

A prize is also waiting for you. What, ANOTHER fraudulent and silly prize? OK, I\'ll play along for the joke.

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain water and homeopathic water. This has been proven time out of number.

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain sugar and homeopathic sugar. This has been proven time out of number.

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain alcohol and homeopathic alcohol. This has been proven time out of number.

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between any homeopathic remedy and the placebo effect. This has been proven time out of number.

Homeopathic remedies have been proven NOT to work as claimed when tested under proper double-blind placebo-controlled conditions, and most do nothing at all for patients. This has been proven time out of number.

Homeopaths continue to insist that their remedies have some effect, despite these conclusive findings. They continue to cite support from noted non-scientists in their bid to support their practices. This has been shown time out of number.

Consequently, homeopaths are defrauding their patients into believing their remedies actually work. They take money from their patients to do this defrauding. They do not tell their patients any of the above information. They are frauds, their practice is fraudulent.



What do I win?

[Jeff Corey]

The lounge suite.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
You must give cradit to NCH Pakistan where you have been appointed as "Full Fledge Moderator" beside Dr. MAS group of critcism.

EHr, yes. I just gave them credit. Unfortunately, it is of little use, since homeopaths seem to shun that forum.

At otherhealth forum you are under observation by Lisa Annan. You daily receive warnings from her. :D

She told you that? I'm afraid I have to inform you that she is lying. I have not received a warning from Lisa Annan, ever.

At hpathy Sigi is the most non-sense moderator of its kind. He disclosed the IP address of a member publically in general discussion forum and when that member pointed out, the all time big liar Manish Bhattia deleted the post of that poster with remarks "abusive language used", although I am witnessed to that thread, that member only said, "sigi you are not in your senses, you publically disclosed my identity and committed crime". Is this abusive utter? Shame on hpathy team a big liar group.

Can't disagree with that. And I want to give you credit for your willingness to criticise other homeopaths. We see much too much blind solidarity.

Hans

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Zep
What, ANOTHER fraudulent and silly prize? OK, I\'ll play along for the joke.

We have the same opinion for JREF prize.


Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain water and homeopathic water. This has been proven time out of number.

Skeptics cannot understand that we do not use water.


Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain sugar and homeopathic sugar. This has been proven time out of number.

A plain sugar which does not contain homeopathic medicine and homeopathic sugar is that which contain homeopathic medicine. This has been told 100 times but you cannot understand.


Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain alcohol and homeopathic alcohol. This has been proven time out of number.

same as above

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between any homeopathic remedy and the placebo effect. This has been proven time out of number.

100 times it has been told to you but you need to study four years of homeopathy


Homeopathic remedies have been proven NOT to work as claimed when tested under proper double-blind placebo-controlled conditions, and most do nothing at all for patients. This has been proven time out of number.

answered just now in Darat quoted mail.

Homeopaths continue to insist that their remedies have some effect, despite these conclusive findings. They continue to cite support from noted non-scientists in their bid to support their practices. This has been shown time out of number.

If it has not effect. then prove it and win prize

Consequently, homeopaths are defrauding their patients into believing their remedies actually work. They take money from their patients to do this defrauding. They do not tell their patients any of the above information. They are frauds, their practice is fraudulent.

inform your government to take steps against them. many homeopaths are working in each country.



What do I win?

You will win our heart if you accept our system. :D

[Dr. A Sheikh]

At otherhealth forum you are under observation by Lisa Annan. You daily receive warnings from her.

She told you that? I'm afraid I have to inform you that she is lying. I have not received a warning from Lisa Annan, ever.

No, she has publically given warning. I read it myself. Your post has also been deleted.

Can't disagree with that. And I want to give you credit for your willingness to criticise other homeopaths. We see much too much blind solidarity.

I am not against sigi or homeopath. Because he is just an employee of manish bhattia. who does not know the difference between hindlimb and leg but working as moderator. He also suggests remedies for pain in leg and forelimb. :D

I am against that act which he did without reason. What was the motive of publically disclosing the ip address of a member? Then manish came and without taking action against sigi, he deleted the two line post of that member with the remarks that post contains abusive remarks. I am wittnessed to that post, no abusive language was used in two or three line post.

Actually manish protected sigi's decission because sigi is his non-paid employee, where as manish is filling his pockets with dollars due to the unpaid services of sigi. Obviously when you take so much work without actually paying anything then you sometime protect your employee by taking such decission just to obliege your employee.


[/b]

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
A plain sugar which does not contain homeopathic medicine and homeopathic sugar is that which contain homeopathic medicine. This has been told 100 times but you cannot understand.
No, what you cannot understand is that when you dilute a finite number of atoms and take samples, eventually your samples have nothing but solvent, as shown here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870941086#post1870941086) and here (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870941280#post1870941280).
You are free to show what is wrong with those calculations. Or you can do what you usually do, wave your arms and pretend they don't exist.
100 times it has been told to you but you need to study four years of homeopathy

It takes 4 years to distinguish between an effect from homeopathy and an effect from placebo, and even then it can't be done under controlled conditions? The effect must be vannishingly small for your statement to be true.

[clarsct]

Huh. And here I thought this horse was given a decent burial.

BTW, let's stick to logic, shall we? YOU claim Homeopathy works. >I< claim I am skeptical. It is up to you to show your own proof, because it was your premise. This is called the 'burden of proof'. And it is squarely on your shoulders. Any attempt to shift the bruden of proof is not only a logical fallacy, but damned dishonest debating.

So, given the situation that I had a bottle of stock solvent, and a bottle of, say, 30c hoemopathic solution to cure diabetes, and I had access to a complete, modern chemistry lab, how would I distinguish between the two bottles, where they unlabeled?

I am awaiting your procedure. Thanks.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
The lounge suite. Oh goody! And can I play on for the holiday AND the car??

[Zep]

What, ANOTHER fraudulent and silly prize? OK, I'll play along for the joke.
We have the same opinion for JREF prize.
At least it's US$1,000,000 real money on the line. And the challenge is real, and the protocols are kept scrupulously fair, and the testing is completely scientific. So I can see why you think it's a joke, yeah.

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain water and homeopathic water. This has been proven time out of number.
Skeptics cannot understand that we do not use water.
I'm just highlighting this because it's such an outright and amusing lie that it's beyond ridiculous. So I'm keeping it for posterity. Thanks, MAS. You've made my day. :D

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain sugar and homeopathic sugar. This has been proven time out of number.
A plain sugar which does not contain homeopathic medicine and homeopathic sugar is that which contain homeopathic medicine. This has been told 100 times but you cannot understand.
Oh, we understand, all right. The problem is that homeopaths cannot tell the difference between them. Because there is none.

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between plain alcohol and homeopathic alcohol. This has been proven time out of number.
same as above
And it gets the same response.

Homeopaths cannot tell the difference between any homeopathic remedy and the placebo effect. This has been proven time out of number.
100 times it has been told to you but you need to study four years of homeopathy
Many of us have been studying the practice of homeopathy for much more than 4 years, and it's patently clear to us now that it's a complete sham. The thing is, we saw that within the first 10 minutes of the 4 years, and it hasn't got any better since then. In other words, you know you are wrong but you just can't bring yourself to admit it in public.

Homeopathic remedies have been proven NOT to work as claimed when tested under proper double-blind placebo-controlled conditions, and most do nothing at all for patients. This has been proven time out of number.
answered just now in Darat quoted mail.
Where? Can't see anything at all from Darat. Perhaps a link or a quote?

Homeopaths continue to insist that their remedies have some effect, despite these conclusive findings. They continue to cite support from noted non-scientists in their bid to support their practices. This has been shown time out of number.
If it has not effect. then prove it and win prize
You don't address the issue at all. And you know full well that some hundreds of tests of homeopathy have been done that prove beyond any reasonable doubt that it is no better than placebo. These results have been cited here frequently, but you refuse to read them, don't you. Just shut your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and go lalalalala...

Consequently, homeopaths are defrauding their patients into believing their remedies actually work. They take money from their patients to do this defrauding. They do not tell their patients any of the above information. They are frauds, their practice is fraudulent.
inform your government to take steps against them. many homeopaths are working in each country.
Your wish has been granted. Some homeopaths are going to gaol here for outright fraud. And there are not a lot of them at all anyway.

What do I win?
You will win our heart if you accept our system.
But you lose your brains and common sense and your wallet on the way. Great. :rolleyes: I'd rather keep all those, if it's all the same with you.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
At otherhealth forum you are under observation by Lisa Annan. You daily receive warnings from her.

She told you that? I'm afraid I have to inform you that she is lying. I have not received a warning from Lisa Annan, ever.

No, she has publically given warning. I read it myself. Your post has also been deleted. That was a year ago. Yes, I have had posts deleted both at otherhealth and elsewhere. And one of Lasa's posts could be interpreted as a warning. All a year ago. But you said:

At otherhealth forum you are under observation by Lisa Annan. You daily receive warnings from her.

Can you see why I have some difficulty taking you seriously?

Hans

[Darat]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
That was a year ago. Yes, I have had posts deleted both at otherhealth and elsewhere. And one of Lasa's posts could be interpreted as a warning. All a year ago. But you said:



Can you see why I have some difficulty taking you seriously?

Hans

I see why you are confused Hans.

The warning was made a year ago and if it is still there then you are being warned every single day by this Lasa, indeed she is warning you every hour, minute and second of every single day…

No matter how many days pass that warning is still warning you, it’s a bit like no matter how many dilutions you make those molecules are still there…. :)


(Edited way to why.)

[clarsct]

Damn. Darat's been warning a BUNCH of people on an hourly basis.

TYRANT!

[MRC_Hans]

Darat: Ahh, yes, of course. How stupid of me. Thanks for the clarification. I assume this is a potentized warning, not to be confused (too much) with a potential warning.

Hans

Hans

[M Sarwar]

Actually the homeopaths at otherhealth have no answers of Mr. Hans interogation (like police officer). :D

By the way, it is a good forum (my first ever visit), from that forum, I got so many links. tnx ;)

[M Sarwar]

in my humble opinion the following post is little different from the already explained explanation of this forum.

tnx for the link

If accidentally some one is exposed to this Arsenic poison. The following possible symptoms will be produced in the healthy person.

Headaches, convulsion, confusion, drowsiness, change in color of fingernails, vomiting, diarrhea, blood in urine, muscle cramps, fatigue, weakness, hair loss, dermatitis, Coma and death are possible. The most effected regions would be Lungs, skin, kidneys and liver.

How these symptoms were produced in healthy individual? (You claimed you know) These observations are not mine. These observations have been recorded by medical scientists.

The homeopathic potency Arsenic Album also acts in the same manner in the patient as it acts in healthy person. In a patient, when arsenic album in controlled material doses (12c, 18c and 30c) was given, an artificial disease / symptoms (above) were produced in the same pattern as it mostly produce in healthy person. At this stage, a complex picture will be developed.

Group of Symptoms (A): are those symptoms, which the patient reported at the time of consultation to homeopath and on the basis of this group “A�, arsenic album in low material doses was prescribed.

Group of Symptoms (: are those fake symptoms (similar to group of symptoms A), which were produced when arsenic album in potency form (low material dose) was given.

The sign of “aggravation� is actually the sign of production of fake symptoms group “B� in the patients along with the old symptoms group “A� which he reported at the time of consultation. When a homeopath observes the first sign of aggravation, he stops the administration of further potency (low dose).

This “aggravation� production of fake symptoms (which are not so harmful) become responsible of generating / sending a reflex to the body’s natural immune system (resistance power / vital force) to start working. This natural resistance power system overcome the group of symptoms “A� and subside them.

Here the question arises? How did arsenic album in potency form cover up the group of symptoms “A� ? It was not the arsenic album that covered up the symptoms rather it was the body’s own immune system that finished up the symptoms. Arsenic was just a stimulating agent.

What is Pharmacodynamics of this practice?

The answer is very simple. How the real arsenic symptoms were produced when it was exposed to healthy person accidentally? The modern medical science is silent. No body knows the exact physiological effects. It is just a true observation based on logical understanding and experimentation according to the available approved medical laws / principles.

Why do medical professionals prescribe Dimercaprol in arsenic album toxicity?

No body knows the exact Pharmacodynamics of this drug in arsenic poising. It is not yet known but again it is very widely used effective drug in removing the toxicity of arsenic in human body because the experimentations show that it is very successful in controlling the acute conditions of arsenic poising.

I hope this answers all your questions.

[Donks]

Originally posted by M Sarwar
in my humble opinion the following post is little different from the already explained explanation of this forum.

tnx for the link
Hello M Sarwar.
That explanation is pretty worthless and was posted, I believe, in the NCH forum.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

If the above explanation is useless then put cool water from the "Homeopathic Water Cooler" which was gifted to few homeopaths in the last seminar held in Pakistan. :D

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6692/wcool5lu.jpg

[Mojo]

Welcome back, Dr. Sheikh.

Now that you're back, can you answer my question: Do you accept that matter is composed of atoms? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
If the above explanation is useless then put cool water from the "Homeopathic Water Cooler" which was gifted to few homeopaths in the last seminar held in Pakistan. :D

Welcome back sheikh. Are you going to answer any questions this time around or will you just weasel around and slink away in a few days?

[Darat]

Originally posted by Donks
Welcome back sheikh. Are you going to answer any questions this time around or will you just weasel around and slink away in a few days?

Oh oh, I know the answer to this one can I answer please, please? :D

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Mojo
Welcome back, Dr. Sheikh.

Now that you're back, can you answer my question: Do you accept that matter is composed of atoms? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I am ready to answer all your remaining queries.

Mojo. yes!

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
If the above explanation is useless then put cool water from the "Homeopathic Water Cooler" which was gifted to few homeopaths in the last seminar held in Pakistan. :D

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6692/wcool5lu.jpg The explanation basically says that a homeopathic preparation works in the same way as a crude substance, right?

Let's take one thing at a time. So please explain:

The crude substance works in a physiological, dose-dependent way. For arsenic, that means less substance, less effect. The concentration where arsenic ceases to have any effect is around 0.1% for the dose sizes used in homeopathy. So how do you claim that any effect exists in concentrations that are many orders of magnitude less (even if we forget Avogadro's limit for the time being)?

Hans

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
I am ready to answer all your remaining queries.

Mojo. yes! Then please answer this simple question:

How many atoms of water are there in one litre of water, please?

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
I am ready to answer all your remaining queries.

Mojo. yes! OK, matter is composed of atoms.

Do you agree that an atom has a finite mass? Again, a yes or no answer will be fine.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
The explanation basically says that a homeopathic preparation works in the same way as a crude substance, right?

Let's take one thing at a time. So please explain:

The crude substance works in a physiological, dose-dependent way. For arsenic, that means less substance, less effect. The concentration where arsenic ceases to have any effect is around 0.1% for the dose sizes used in homeopathy. So how do you claim that any effect exists in concentrations that are many orders of magnitude less (even if we forget Avogadro's limit for the time being)?

Hans

Before answering this question I would like to ask you a question (rather repeating an old question as mentioned by many members) because the answer of your question is hidden in my question.

Does a 12c / 18c (under avogadro's limitation) potency (arsenic) can bring some physiological change in the body?

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Mojo
OK, matter is composed of atoms.

Do you agree that an atom has a finite mass? Again, a yes or no answer will be fine.

YES

[flume]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh: Does a 12c / 18c (under avogadro's limitation) potency (arsenic) can bring some physiological change in the body? Dr. A Sheikh, 12C and 18C are above Avogadro's number. Could you have meant 12X? That would be below Avogadro's number. So there would be some molecules or ions of arsenic in a 12X remedy.


Suppose you had a 12X remedy containing arsenic alba (arsenic trioxide) at 1 x 10^-12 grams per ml. If it completely dissolved, you would have about 0.75 x 10^-12 grams arsenic per ml. If you took a 1 ml dose of the arsenic remedy, you would get 0.75 x 10^-12 grams of arsenic.
Now suppose you drank a cup of water (about 250 ml).
In my neighborhood, the water supply contains 0.5 X 10^-6 g arsenic /L. (The maximum allowable limit is 50 X 10^-6 g arsenic /L.) The amount of arsenic in the cup of water (if it had the same arsenic level as my water) would be 125000 X 10^-12 g.

Compare the amount of arsenic from your remedy to the amount of arsenic in the cup of water you drank.
Arsenic in remedy = 0.75 x 10^-12 grams
Arsenic in water = 125000 X 10^-12 grams.
There is more than 100,000 times as much arsenic just in the drinking water than you would get from your remedy. (And the amount in the water is supposedly a safe level.)

Any effect of the arsenic in the remedy would be insignificant in comparison to any effect of the arsenic you would get every day in your drinking water.

edited to add: I do not know about effects of different arsenic compounds.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

let's wait for Hans reply.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
let's wait for Hans reply.
Why? Because you have no answer for flume's (very nice) post?

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
YES Right. So you acknowledge that matter is composed of atoms and that an atom has a finite mass. This means that a given amount of a given substance will contain a finite number of atoms.

Do you accept that if you divide a finite number by a larger finite number you will get an answer that is less than 1?

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Zep
Then please answer this simple question:

How many atoms of water are there in one litre of water, please?

I don't know but I agree with the equation of number of atoms/molecules presented by Zep, badlyshaved moneky and donks etc.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
I don\'t know but I agree with the equation of number of atoms/molecules presented by Zep, badlyshaved moneky and donks etc. OK, so do you agree there are a finite number of molecules of water in any given amount of water?

(Mojo, we\'re getting there, but slowly!)

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by flume
Dr. A Sheikh, 12C and 18C are above Avogadro's number. Could you have meant 12X? That would be below Avogadro's number. So there would be some molecules or ions of arsenic in a 12X remedy.


Suppose you had a 12X remedy containing arsenic alba (arsenic trioxide) at 1 x 10^-12 grams per ml. If it completely dissolved, you would have about 0.75 x 10^-12 grams arsenic per ml. If you took a 1 ml dose of the arsenic remedy, you would get 0.75 x 10^-12 grams of arsenic.
Now suppose you drank a cup of water (about 250 ml).
In my neighborhood, the water supply contains 0.5 X 10^-6 g arsenic /L. (The maximum allowable limit is 50 X 10^-6 g arsenic /L.) The amount of arsenic in the cup of water (if it had the same arsenic level as my water) would be 125000 X 10^-12 g.

Compare the amount of arsenic from your remedy to the amount of arsenic in the cup of water you drank.
Arsenic in remedy = 0.75 x 10^-12 grams
Arsenic in water = 125000 X 10^-12 grams.
There is more than 100,000 times as much arsenic just in the drinking water than you would get from your remedy. (And the amount in the water is supposedly a safe level.)

Any effect of the arsenic in the remedy would be insignificant in comparison to any effect of the arsenic you would get every day in your drinking water.

edited to add: I do not know about effects of different arsenic compounds.

You said, That would be below Avogadro's number. So there would be some molecules or ions of arsenic in a 12X remedy.

If you accept the prescence of ions of homeopathic medicine (about 3000 thousand potencies) under avogadros limit then atleast accept the physiological action of these potencies too because I only drink that brand of mineral water which has no arsenic.

http://www.nestle-waters.com/NR/rdonlyres/71949948-D55D-4F9C-B653-02FA661ED670/4851/c4a_worldmarket_drinking.jpg

Whenever, you will accept that homeopathic potencies have physiological action under the limit of avogadro number limit then I will address your question of above the limit of avogadros number.

Do you accept the homeopathic medicine may have physiological action under avogadros numbers limit? YES or No (A simple answer is required)