How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

[Dr. MAS]

Dear children,

I well come you on the behalf of MZA, Khan Homeopathic Degree College administration. You people are interested in learning homeopathy, how does it work?

The college has allocated few periods but I would like to take your class as and when I am available.

Let’s start from here.

Homeopathy is a scientific system of medicine. This was discovered by Samuel Hahnemann some two hundred years ago. Homeopathy is a system of medicine which is based on natural laws which was already existing but not in practice, Hahneamann was the first who understood and applied this law therapeutically. Homeopathy is based on the therapeutic law / principle “Similia Similibus Curentur� , a Latin phrase, which means that “like cures like�. Its main aim is to stimulate the individual's innate healing processes through the administration of minute "homeopathic" dilutions of specific remedies. Homeopathy is derived from the Greek homeo, meaning same, and pathos, meaning suffering,

The homeopathic way, is to give the suffering patient who has a set a of particular symptoms which characterize their condition, a minute dose of a substance which in large doses causes similar symptoms of an artificially inflicted disturbance in a healthy person. For example, if a healthy person takes belladonna tincture / extract for reasonable time. The following symptoms will be born depends upon the susceptibility of the healthy person.

delirium;
excitement;
talking, conversation; in sleep;
vertigo


OK children memorize this topic and I will ask few questions next time on the same topic before continuing my teaching on the same subject.

Bye

To be continued.

[clarsct]

Yes, I am familiar with Dr. Hahnemann and his work. "Like cures like" is nothing new here. You may continue. Thank You.

[Donks]

Okay, this is a nice change of pace. Ok, read the first lesson.

Dr. MAS, please continue.

[steenkh]

We seem to be past this level long ago! You know, we have actually had threads where we taught homoeopathy to homoeopaths who did not know their Hahnemann as well as some of us did!

It was no surprise that they scurried off.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS

The homeopathic way, is to give the suffering patient who has a set a of particular symptoms which characterize their condition, a minute dose of a substance which in large doses causes similar symptoms of an artificially inflicted disturbance in a healthy person.

We would like more details on WHY giving a patient such a thing actually works.

Also, please give us an example of a disease that produces the exact same symptoms as belladonna poisoning.

[MRC_Hans]

OK, I realize that the question time may not have started, but a nice thing about internet communication is that I can nevertheless put my questions to the first lesson on record. The dear teacher can then answer them whenever he is ready to do so (but preferably before reiterating the whole of the Organon of medicine, since we already know all this):


Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Dear children,

I well come you on the behalf of MZA, Khan Homeopathic Degree College administration. You people are interested in learning homeopathy, how does it work?

Yes, please. How does it work?

*snip*

Homeopathy is a scientific system of medicine.

Please specify which scientific laws support homeopathy and how.

This was discovered by Samuel Hahnemann some two hundred years ago. Homeopathy is a system of medicine which is based on natural laws which was already existing but not in practice, Hahneamann was the first who understood and applied this law therapeutically.

Please specify which laws.

Homeopathy is based on the therapeutic law / principle “Similia Similibus Curentur� , a Latin phrase, which means that “like cures like�.

Please specify where like cures like is supported in scientific results, apart from the 200 year old claims of Hahnemann.

Its main aim is to stimulate the individual's innate healing processes through the administration of minute "homeopathic" dilutions of specific remedies.

Please explain how it is supposed to work in the potencies beyond the Avogadro limit.

Or alternatively, are you stating that the effect of homeopathy depends on the presense of (however diluted) remains of mother tincture in the remedies?

*snip* For example, if a healthy person takes belladonna tincture / extract for reasonable time. The following symptoms will be born depends upon the susceptibility of the healthy person.

delirium;
excitement;
talking, conversation; in sleep;
vertigo

In which potencies (dilutions) does this happen?

*snip*Well, dear teacher, I am afraid that we are not very compliant pupils. Better alot plenty of time for the "questions" sessions.

Hans

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by clarsct
Yes, I am familiar with Dr. Hahnemann and his work. "Like cures like" is nothing new here. You may continue. Thank You.

Hi Dr. MAS,

To stop such type of non-sense brothers and sisters, I request to respond to that question initiator who qualifies your "HONEST" criteria mentioned in forum management? What do you think?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Hi Dr. MAS,

To stop such type of non-sense brothers and sisters, I request to respond to that question initiator who qualifies your "HONEST" criteria mentioned in forum management? What do you think?
I think we should stick to homeopathy, not get sidetracked with whatever smokescreen you think up.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Hi Dr. MAS,

To stop such type of non-sense brothers and sisters, I request to respond to that question initiator who qualifies your "HONEST" criteria mentioned in forum management? What do you think? I am afraid that by choosing in the first place to debate and educate via the internet, the good DR. MAS has committed himself to answer all reasonably sensible questions. It is one of the generally good properties of internet discussions that you have to judge people by their actions, not by their credentials. Thus, to ignore certain questions, on any basis but the sensibility of the actual question would quicly erode the credibility that Dr. MAS appears to be attempting to rebuild in this thread.


Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Homeopathy is a scientific system of medicine. This was discovered by Samuel Hahnemann some two hundred years ago. Homeopathy is a system of medicine which is based on natural laws which was already existing but not in practice, Hahneamann was the first who understood and applied this law therapeutically. Homeopathy is based on the therapeutic law / principle “Similia Similibus Curentur� , a Latin phrase, which means that “like cures like�. Its main aim is to stimulate the individual's innate healing processes through the administration of minute "homeopathic" dilutions of specific remedies. Homeopathy is derived from the Greek homeo, meaning same, and pathos, meaning suffering,

The homeopathic way, is to give the suffering patient who has a set a of particular symptoms which characterize their condition, a minute dose of a substance which in large doses causes similar symptoms of an artificially inflicted disturbance in a healthy person. For example, if a healthy person takes belladonna tincture / extract for reasonable time. The following symptoms will be born depends upon the susceptibility of the healthy person.

delirium;
excitement;
talking, conversation; in sleep;
vertigoMas, we know all this. And a great deal more besides. Argument by blatant assertion isn't going to get you very far here, you know.

First, on what grounds do you assert that "like cures like" is a natural law? There are some occasions when it may seem to be true, but there are also many occasions when it is clearly not true. So, please present your evidence for the existence of this "law".

Bear in mind that we know that Hahnemann's original experience which led him to this supposition, was mistaken. He took some cinchona bark to see what effect it might have, and experienced feverish symptoms. He therefore concluded that every healthy person who takes cinchona bark experiences such symptoms. We now know that this is not the case, and that while many many people have taken the stuff, nobody else has described an experience similar to his. It is now understood that Hahnemann probably had an allergic reaction to the substance.

We also know that while Hahnemann was right in believing that the curative properties of cinchona bark had nothing to do with its "astringent action on the stomach", as Cullen speculated, his idea about the relationship with his idiosyncratic feverish reaction was equally misguided. Cinchona bark cures malaria because it contains quinine, a substance now known to be toxic to the Plasmodium protozoan which causes the disease.

We also know that "provings" nowadays are done using preparations which do not contain any of the actual substance being tested (yes, we can go into this later). Therefore, how is it possible to assert that any symptoms experienced by the "provers" are in any way related to the putative remedy?

Given these facts, would you now please present your evidence for "like cures like" as a natural law?

Rolfe.

[andycal]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS

Dear children,
(boring blah blah cut)
OK children memorize this topic and I will ask few questions next time on the same topic before continuing my teaching on the same subject.

Bye

To be continued.

Hang on a minute, didn't you say you were writing a 100 page document that would explain it all??? So far we get some patronising rubbish that explains nothing.

Are you sure this isn't some lame method to win a 'troll' award?

[MRC_Hans]

I have chosen to assume that the "Dear children" part is a formal politeness phrase in Dr. MAS' native language that doesn't come over well in translation, and not an insultingly condescending mannerism.

Hans

[Ashles]

As mentioned by others Dr. MAS you are merely outlining what homeopathy is - I could outline what a magic broomstick is in great detail, it wouldn't mean one really flies.

What we are asking is how, scientifically , do you claim homeopathy works?

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS

I will ask few questions next time on the same topic before continuing my teaching on the same subject. That strikes me as a remarkably pointless exercise, as we can just come back to your original post and find the answers. Or is it just another delaying tactic?

By the way, Dr. MAS, what is mekhbesi?

[Jeff Corey]

I must say I am quite disapointed with the quality of Mr. MAS's instruction so far. In fact, it leads me to doubt that Mr. MAS has any training or quailifications whatsoever.
I'm tempted to demand a tuition refund.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Jeff Corey
I must say I am quite disapointed with the quality of Mr. MAS's instruction so far. In fact, it leads me to doubt that Mr. MAS has any training or quailifications whatsoever.
I'm tempted to demand a tuition refund.
You get what you pay for.

[Perpetual Notion]

Hans and Rolfe ask very good questions. Will you please answer them?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na₂SO₄ solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 10²³ of each of the component moieties of Na₂SO₄. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 10²².

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 10²⁰ of each of the components of Na₂SO₄.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Remember, according to probality law, it is quite possible that the 2nd starting material drop may not contain any molecule of 1st starting material (because that drop was picked up blindly from the bottle) and it may or may not contain 50% of the 1st starting material or may contain 99% of the starting material.


How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 10²⁰?

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Mas, we know all this. And a great deal more besides. Argument by blatant assertion isn't going to get you very far here, you know.

Dr.mas In this class, there are so many students, who have different qualifications and academic background. Few are saying we already know that and few are raising questions. How you will you teach / treat them? :D

You claim, you have M.Ed (first division) qualification what would be your method of instruction?

They have started questioning from their mother and father's log in account. How you will recognized that Rolfe is not "perpetual"

[Perpetual Notion]

Nice attempt to derail Non-Sense. If you want to debate the whole sock puppet issue there's another thread for that. This is supposed to be our "class".

What does it matter who is asking the question? A question is a question and either he can answer it or he won't.

Oh, thanks for thinking I'm Rolfe. I hold her in very high regard. :)

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS

...Homeopathy is a scientific system of medicine. ...

If it were a real system of medicine, then it would be the standard of care for many conditions. Since you feel that it works for HIV/AIDS and hepatitis, then it would be the standard of care for these viruses... not the expensive anti-virals that are now required.

Originally posted by Dr. MAS

This was discovered by Samuel Hahnemann some two hundred years ago. ...

Explain how it was discovered... give more detail than what was presented by Rolfe.

Originally posted by Dr. MAS

Homeopathy is a system of medicine which is based on natural laws which was already existing but not in practice, ...

When studying science and the history of science "natural laws" do not start out as LAWS. They start out as a hyporthesis (an idea how it might be), then they will progress to a theory... and finally after showing consistent results through experiements and observation will be regarded as "natural laws".

Natural laws include Newton's Three Laws of Motion and his law of gravity. There are also concepts like the "Conservation of Mass" . Also there are the three laws of thermodynamics, which can be noted simply here http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae280.cfm as Thermodynamics is the study of the inter-relation between heat, work and internal energy of a system.

The British scientist and author C.P. Snow had an excellent way of remembering the three laws:

1) You cannot win (that is, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are conserved).

2) You cannot break even (you cannot return to the same energy state, because there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases).

3) You cannot get out of the game (because absolute zero is unattainable).

Which also means that the natural laws that apply to the rest of the world must also apply to homeopathy. There is no magic water memory to cause a cure in a dilution so great that the original tincture may not even be in the "remedy".

There are some "natural" things still under review, like the "Theory of Relativity" and "Unified Field Theory".

Presently we must reject your blatent assertion that "homeopathy works" because it violates a couple of well established natural principles. Those being the Conservation of Matter. Here I found an online tutorial that should explain it to you:
http://www.learner.org/channel/courses/essential/physicalsci/session4/

If you register you can watch a video of 11 to 12 year olds learning these basic concepts.
Originally posted by Dr. MAS

Hahneamann was the first who understood and applied this law therapeutically. ...

The question is how did he jump from "hypothesis" to "law"? Did he do experiments.. or did he just guess? Did he know that his reaction to cinchona bark was not normal, that he was actually having an allergic reaction?

What did Hahnemann actually understand?
Originally posted by Dr. MAS

Homeopathy is based on the therapeutic law / principle “Similia Similibus Curentur� , a Latin phrase, which means that “like cures like�. ...

So is it a real law because it has given consistent results through experimentation?... or just because you say so? Give us the details on how it became a law. Or at least show us you have some understanding of basic science.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
How you will recognized that Rolfe is not "perpetual" Ewig war ich,
ewig bin ich,
ewig in süss
sehnender Wonne, -
doch ewig zu deinem Heil!

Rolfe. :c1:

[Donks]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Ewig war ich,
ewig bin ich,
ewig in süss
sehnender Wonne, -
doch ewig zu deinem Heil!

Rolfe. :c1:
Is that extreme Kumarese? :D

[steenkh]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Ewig war ich,
ewig bin ich,
ewig in süss
sehnender Wonne, -
doch ewig zu deinem Heil!

Absolutely beautiful! I will, however, leave it to you to translate it. After all, you let the cat out of the bag :D

[Homeo Man]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
What does it matter who is asking the question? A question is a question and either he can answer it or he won't.


A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc. :D

[Donks]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc. :D
What the F*** are you talking about? Are you accusing someone of having multiple accounts, or accusing multiple people of using the same account? If you are, show evidence. If you aren't, shut the F*** up about it and discuss homeopathy.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Donks
What the F*** are you talking about? Are you accusing someone of having multiple accounts, or accusing multiple people of using the same account? If you are, show evidence. If you aren't, shut the F*** up about it and discuss homeopathy. He's just trolling :rolleyes:. He's one more post like that from my ignore list.

Hans

[Donks]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
He's just trolling :rolleyes:. He's one more post like that from my ignore list.

Hans
I don't put people on ignore, but if I did, he'd be quite the fine candidate for it.

[MRC_Hans]

I have to put some on ignore. I seem incapable of not reading drivel otherwise :rolleyes:.

Hans

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc. :D

So, are you, MAS, Homeo Man, Non-Sense Homeopath and Syed really the best your little team can come up with?

I've never seen a bunch of woos quite so fearful of defending their beliefs. Are you really so insecure that you daren't even attempt to defend yourselves? For all I care you can stand in the pillories for as long as you like. We have plenty of rotten veggies here and we can carry on throwing them so long as you like being the laughing stock.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Donks
Is that extreme Kumarese? :D No (http://www.rwagner.net/libretti/siegfried/i-sieg-a3s3.html).

You only had to Google it, I just copied and pasted. It's from the same page as I got the "Hello world" bit from, reference a discussion in TRSOTTTWND one time.

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Rolfe
No (http://www.rwagner.net/libretti/siegfried/i-sieg-a3s3.html).

You only had to Google it, I just copied and pasted. It's from the same page as I got the "Hello world" bit from, reference a discussion in TRSOTTTWND one time.

Rolfe.
I don't know why I ever attempt humor. I obviously suck at it.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Donks
I don't know why I ever attempt humor. I obviously suck at it. Nonsense. I did get that you were funny. It's my attempt at a dead-pan reply which clearly didn't work! :D

Rolfe.

[Ashles]

Well this turned into a fine lesson on the nature of homeopathy.

One post explaining that homeopathy is based on 'natural laws' without any detail.

Then... nothing.

I guess that's the point at which a scientific explanation of homeopathy gets a bit tricky... right at the beginnning.

[andycal]

I think this is why it's a four year course...

[Perpetual Notion]

I had been feeling jealous that all the posting happens in the middle of the night for me and I miss out on all the good stuff, but now I'm thinking that my time really is better spent in bed. Oh well, maybe I'll get my servant to stay up all night and post tricky questions :rolleyes:

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na₂SO₄ solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 10²³ of each of the component moieties of Na₂SO₄. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 10²².

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 10²⁰ of each of the components of Na₂SO₄.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.

How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 10²⁰? Just in case this got buried under all the banter.

(Actually, BSM, that will be 2 x 6.022 x 10²⁰ sodium ions, plus 6.022 x 10²⁰ sulphate ions. So perhaps we should just concentrate on the sulphate ions for now.)

Mas, you may recall that in one of my posts that you didn't reply to, I went through the quesiton of pipetting accuracy. I pointed out that part of the homoeopathic procedure is succussion, which even at its least vigorous pretty much guarantees a more or less uniform mixing of the solution. I also pointed out that pipetting accuracy is something which is well understood, and that a careful worker should be able to manage less than 2% variation, while even a rather careless operator will still manage 5%.

So, given these facts, what are the chances that the 1ml that BSM is talking about will contain more than 6.323 x 10<SUP>20</SUP> sulphate ions, or less than 5.721 x 10<SUP>20</SUP>? If you repeat the procedure 10 times, what are the chances that all 10 repetitions will all contain more than 6.022 x 10²⁰ sulphate ions?

These are extremely important questions. They are very easy, certainly, but they are crucial to your case. Please answer them.

Also please answer the question regarding your evidence that "like cures like" is a natural law. Bearing in mind that we know Hahnemann misinterpreted his idiosyncratic reaction to cinchona bark as a universal effect, when it was not, and that he mistakenly ascribed the healing properties of the bark to this effect when in fact they are due to the toxic effect of quinine on Plasmodium vivax.

Please be assured that everyone here is capable of understanding these questions, and your answers to them.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
(Actually, BSM, that will be 2 x 6.022 x 10²⁰ sodium ions, plus 6.022 x 10²⁰ sulphate ions. So perhaps we should just concentrate on the sulphate ions for now.)


Ahem;

"of each of the component moieties" :)

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
A question is just a question, who is the initiator this is non of the buisness. Yes, very right

but show courage to ask yourself, don't bother your brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc. :D

Alright. This is going to be hard. Must... show... courage!

Alright, delphi_ote... you smart mouthed jerk! I've got a question for you. And you're not getting away with pawning it off to my brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc. THIS time! I've got you cornered, and I want a straight answer!

If you're so smart, how does homeopathy work?

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
If you're so smart, how does homeopathy work?

Uh... it doesn't. The most basic understanding of solutions will tell anyone it's just water.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
Uh... it doesn't. The most basic understanding of solutions will tell anyone it's just water.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, delphi_ote!

P.S. If I were you, I'd stop talking to myself. It's creepy.

[Zep]

I think I know why it takes 4 years to complete Mas's Homeopathy Course(TM). It's because he is teaching his students at the same speed he is posting here - one tiny piece of pointless drivel less than once per day. Either the students are screened for thickness (i.e. intelligence)*, or they are right now all snoring in their chairs in the classroom.






*That is, the intelligent ones are NOT accepted.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by Donks
What the F*** are you talking about? Are you accusing someone of having multiple accounts, or accusing multiple people of using the same account? If you are, show evidence. If you aren't, shut the F*** up about it and discuss homeopathy.


What a frustrating remarks ?:p The billi is out from her bag.

Dear Dr. MAS

Sir, We have made hot soup, now its your turn to drink it up. :D

They were playing with their "MASks" on their faces. You remove the masks and that was not rolfe but her mother.

:D

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
He's just trolling :rolleyes:. He's one more post like that from my ignore list.

Hans

And after that you will declare us "non-sense" that is why, I already admitted. I knew, you will come to that stage too, but I was not expected too early.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
So, are you, MAS, Homeo Man, Non-Sense Homeopath and Syed really the best your little team can come up with?

I've never seen a bunch of woos quite so fearful of defending their beliefs. Are you really so insecure that you daren't even attempt to defend yourselves? For all I care you can stand in the pillories for as long as you like. We have plenty of rotten veggies here and we can carry on throwing them so long as you like being the laughing stock.

When, I received mail on paki mailing list, I visited this forum and read 50 pages (approx) and I took a week. It was the order of dr.mas to get registeration and I was thinking, for what? Randi people are so non-sense that what would be the point of discussion. they have adopted a simple technique "I will not admit" "I will not accept" "No, its not" on each question they ask "How" or "No, it does not happen", at last, I decided to play the role of middle man and I think, I am successful in my plan. I have made a ground (pitch) for dr.mas to play his shots now. A frusterated man cannot think.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by Ashles
Well this turned into a fine lesson on the nature of homeopathy.

One post explaining that homeopathy is based on 'natural laws' without any detail.

Then... nothing.

I guess that's the point at which a scientific explanation of homeopathy gets a bit tricky... right at the beginnning.

JREF claim is homeopathy does not work, if it works you can win one million dollar, they are not interested in the physiological action of the drugs? Clear?

These threads moving around on that "working"

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
Alright. This is going to be hard. Must... show... courage!

Alright, delphi_ote... you smart mouthed jerk! I've got a question for you. And you're not getting away with pawning it off to my brother, sisters, mothers, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc. THIS time! I've got you cornered, and I want a straight answer!

If you're so smart, how does homeopathy work?

How does homeopathy work? for this purpose, a thread was initiated. wait for dr.mas to come.

He is engaged in organizing 4th national seminar which will be held on 29th of may. I will also be there.

[Zep]

Perhaps, Mr Non-Sense Homeopath, while you are there at this incredibly important homeopathic seminar, you might ask Mas to quit fooling around here and come up with the goods?

What a frustrating remarks ? The billi is out from her bag.

Dear Dr. MAS

Sir, We have made hot soup, now its your turn to drink it up.

They were playing with their "MASks" on their faces. You remove the masks and that was not rolfe but her mother.Kumaresque in the extreme. Does anyone ELSE know what this means? I sure don't...And after that you will declare us "non-sense" that is why, I already admitted. I knew, you will come to that stage too, but I was not expected too early.You are living up to your posting name. So whose problem is that, ours?When, I received mail on paki mailing list, I visited this forum and read 50 pages (approx) and I took a week. It was the order of dr.mas to get registeration and I was thinking, for what? Randi people are so non-sense that what would be the point of discussion. they have adopted a simple technique "I will not admit" "I will not accept" "No, its not" on each question they ask "How" or "No, it does not happen", at last, I decided to play the role of middle man and I think, I am successful in my plan. I have made a ground (pitch) for dr.mas to play his shots now. A frusterated man cannot thinkNot just "Randi people", all the rest of the scientific world knows homeopathy is bunkum. You are just the last to accept it - so whose problem is that again, ours? And of course we will ask questions about the "science" you put forward! Did you expect that we wouldn't? We ask exactly the same questions of ALL science issues, so why should homeopathy be exempt? And if Mas is frustrated and cannot think, doesn't that indicate to you that he is having trouble answering even simple questions?JREF claim is homeopathy does not work, if it works you can win one million dollar, they are not interested in the physiological action of the drugs? Clear?

These threads moving around on that "working"JREF is simply asking homeopaths to PROVE that it works, and the easiest way to do that is to show that an ultramolar (e.g. 30C) homeopathic remedy is different from base solvent. And what do we find? While most homeopaths agree this can be done very easily, none of them will actually try to do it. Even for an easy US$1,000,000 plus global and lasting fame.

Unless...YOU want to be the one to do this, NSH?

[Donks]

Hey "Non-Sense" (TM Kumar) Homeopath, is your job in this little charade to derail this thread? This thread is for the "course" mas is "teaching".

[Homeo Man]

The assistant of dr.mas sent this mail to me and requested to paste in education “class� forum. He said, dr.mas is busy and will return soon.

In order to understand the working of homeopathic

Medicines, we must understand first, how other

non-homeopathic drugs / medicines / energies may

Work.

Before understanding working of homeopathic drugs,

we must know the concept of vital force /

resistance power / body immune system and how does

it work?

Homeopathic system is pure scientific system. It

works in the same manner as other system work.

There are so many many therapies or medical system.

All have the same object to control the body

dysfunction. Acupuncture, moxibustion, electropathy

and herbal all work on different level but main of

the these systems is to enhance body immune system

. For enhancing body immune system you can adopt any

technique. For this purpose you use either

molecules of medicines or use any other technique

which cannot be detected by any available devices.

This is also called science and scientists believe on it.

On Vital Force concept there are so many opinions but scientists believe on this hypothetical force (because it cannot be seen by naked eye, vital force is not physical or chemical thing) but working in the body.


In the mean time, try to find the answers of vital force, vitality, life force and body immune system and its working I will come back soon.

Dr. M Hafeez

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
..snip..
Homeopathic system is pure scientific system.

No, it is not.

Originally posted by Homeo Man
It

works in the same manner as other system work.

If that were true it would behave according to the actual natural laws I have listed in my post above. That would include the laws of Conservation of Mass and Matter PLUS all three laws of thermodynamics.

Originally posted by Homeo Man


...snip
This is also called science and scientists believe on it.


No... it is not real science, and those of us actually DO understand science do not believe it.

Please understand that proof by blatent assertion is NOT going to work. You and your friends have yet to prove that homeopathy works. Please try harder to use a coherent and plausible explanation.

edited for formatting again

[flume]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
On Vital Force concept there are so many opinions but scientists believe on this hypothetical force. . Science has rejected the idea of a vital force. It is an outdated idea. If you are trying to make a science-based argument for homeopathy, the phrase 'vital force' will not be helpful. You will need a more precise description.

(You can probably find material from the 1800s talking about something like the vital force, but modern techniques of cell biology and biochemistry have been able to explain the workings of the cell that were a mystery 200 years ago.)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
The assistant of dr.mas sent this mail to me and requested to paste in education class forum. He said, dr.mas is busy and will return soon.

More flights of fancy instead of sound reasoning.

Tell me, Homeo Man, why does it not bother you that your great teacher, MAS cannot answer a very simple scientific question?

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na₂SO₄ solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 10²³ of each of the component moieties of Na₂SO₄. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 10²².

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 10²⁰ of each of the components of Na₂SO₄.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Remember, according to probality law, it is quite possible that the 2nd starting material drop may not contain any molecule of 1st starting material (because that drop was picked up blindly from the bottle) and it may or may not contain 50% of the 1st starting material or may contain 99% of the starting material.

How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 10²⁰?

Edited to add;
p.s. Iin case you hadn't realised what is going on here, I am going to keep reminding MAS that he cannot answer this question until he makes an attempt to do so. Don't forget he started this by making the ridiculous assertion that I have quoted in the middle of this post.

[Gaga]

good morning folks
(well, it's morning here)
:rolleyes: *yawn* this thread is really informative, thanks mas/non-sense/homeo man. (Btw, wasn't non-sense homeopath supposed to be against hpathy? Am I deceived?)

Try to come up with some
Reasonable or logic argument
Or I'll have to conclude that you
Lack the evidence to support your
Laughable claims

oh, and you can put some math in it, I'm not afraid.
What's the unit of measurement for the vital force?
How you measure it? with a linear?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Ahem;

"of each of the component moieties" :) Yes, I saw that bit. But it's not strictly accurate, is it? It's 6.022 x 10 <SUP>20</SUP> sulphate ions, but twice that many sodium ions.

Just to be picky.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
You remove the masks and that was not rolfe but her mother.:dl:

I'm sorry, the concept of my mother even knowing how to turn on a computer is so hysterically funny that I probably won't be able to stop laughing for a week. (Except that, sadly, her eyesight is so poor she probably wouldn't be able to read the screen if she did manage it.)

Rolfe.

[Dr. MAS]

Originally posted by clarsct
Yes, I am familiar with Dr. Hahnemann and his work. "Like cures like" is nothing new here. You may continue. Thank You.

I was not aware of this info that you already knew unless you reveal your identity and qualification. I am facing great problem in sending posts at JREF forum. This is the nine attempt for sending post.

Please read my replies here.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28

Thank you

I will visit this forum whenever I will find time. I am passing through hard time. I am busy in arranging seminar.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Zep
Either the students are screened for thickness (i.e. intelligence)*, or they are right now all snoring in their chairs in the classroom.






*That is, the intelligent ones are NOT accepted. I think this may be why Mr. MAS was so insistent about knowing what qualifications people had before he started explaining anything. Once he realised that there are people here who are more than capable of demolising his "arguments," the probability of his actually presenting his explanation of how homeopathy works went down to somewhere around zero.

[Dr. MAS]

Looking for serious questioning!

I have decided not to indulge in irrelevent discussion.

i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand. ;)

[Gaga]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Looking for serious questioning!
I have decided not to indulge in irrelevent discussion.


That would be a nice and refreshing change of pace, will you start now?

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand. ;)

isn't about time to start actually DOING IT ?
there are a lot of questions pending for a start try to answer them.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
I was not aware of this info that you already knew unless you reveal your identity and qualification. I am facing great problem in sending posts at JREF forum. This is the nine attempt for sending post.

Please read my replies here.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28

Thank you

I will visit this forum whenever I will find time. I am passing through hard time. I am busy in arranging seminar. For those who have not registered on th NCH forum, here is MAS's "reply":

In order to understand correctly how do homeopathic remedies react, we should have clear idea about the body immune system and vital force (vitality, life force etc). The immune system is composed of many interdependent cell types, these cells have specialized system. All works on different level and Often, these cells depend on other factors for response. This response can be generated from any source.


In other words, no answer :rolleyes:.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Looking for serious questioning!

I have decided not to indulge in irrelevent discussion.

i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand. ;) Then kindly answer my questions. Or expain why they are not relevant.

... Seriously, MAS; right now you are busily confirming the sad conclusion I have had to come to after debating a large number of homeopaths: You don't have any answers, and you don't really have a clue about what you are doing.

Hans

[Zep]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Looking for serious questioning!

I have decided not to indulge in irrelevent discussion.

i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand. ;) Thank you! Excellent! So I will take you at your word, expect you made this as an honest offer, and ask for you to explain this:

PLEASE DESCRIBE, IN DETAIL WITH SUPPORTING MATHEMATICS, HOW MANY MOLECULES OF MOTHER TINCTURE THERE ARE IN EACH DILUTION OF A HOMEOPATHIC REMEDY, DOWN TO 30C DILUTION LEVEL USING THE CLASSIC HANHEMANN METHOD.

Please use the example of sodium chloride (tincture) in water (base solvent), to make things easy for us so we can understand. We already know that there are 3.3x10^23 molecules in 1ml of pure water. We wait for you to show us how many molecules there are in 1gm of sodium chloride. We wait for you to show us the mathematics of homeopathic dilution.

Over to you, Mas.

[MRC_Hans]

Ok, MAS has deigned to submit another "lesson" on the NCH forum, using ye olde smokescreen excuse of not being able to post here:

MAS on the NCH forum:
Hi skeptics, when I will deliver my lecture, you will get your replies. Read and see, how many replies have been received to you.

The homeopathic way, is to give the suffering patient who has a set a of particular symptoms which characterize their condition, a minute dose of a substance which in large doses causes similar symptoms of an artificially inflicted disturbance in a healthy person. For example, if a healthy person takes belladonna tincture / extract for reasonable time. The following symptoms will be born depends upon the susceptibility of the healthy person.

delirium;
excitement;
talking, conversation; in sleep;
vertigo

or etc



We know that the first step in science is “method of scientific research� i.e. Observation, hypothesis, experiment and result and on the basis of result we explain theory and if theory comes true then it become law.

Let’s see what was observed?

Potassium Cyanide KCN, an extremely poisonous white compound. When potassium cyanide (in reasonable quantity) was given following symptoms were born.

As all cyanides, potassium cyanide is a potent poison blocking the cells' electron transport chain by forming a permanent bind with the iron atom in heme of cytochromes. The result is disruption of the cell's breathing process.

· Headache
· Dizziness
· Confusion
· Nausea
· Shortness of breath
· Convulsions
· Vomiting
· Weakness
· Anxiety
· Irregular heart beat
· Tightness in the chest
· Unconsciousness
· Effects may be delayed.

These were the observations when cyanide was administrated. You cannot deny this observation. Same when belladonna was administerated some symptoms were involve as mentioned above.

(to be continued)


--------------------

Dr. MAS
Oh, and just for the record: I have not heard anybody deny that cyanide could poison you :rolleyes:.

Hans

[MRC_Hans]

So, a very short "lecture" every other day, 1/3 of which is a repetition of the previous one. No wonder the education takes 4 years.

Hans :nope:

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand. ;) (Why is it I find that winkie-smilie an ominous sign?)

Mas, please explain to us the evidence you have for your belief that "like cures like" is any sort of general or natural law. Bearing in mind that Hahnemann was mistaken in his belief that cinchona bark causes symptoms similar to those of malaria, and that modern provings are done using preparations that contain none of the substance nominally under test.

Also please answer Badly Shaved Monkey's question.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

I see that "Non-Sense Homeopath" has been suspended "whilst we attempt to resolve some apparent discrepancies in his registration information", according to Darat. Well, thank the Lord for small mercies.

I suppose any speculation that he's a sock-puppet of Dr. MAS would be totally premature and inappropriate?

Rolfe.

[flume]

Originally posted by Rolfe I suppose any speculation that he's a sock-puppet of Dr. MAS would be totally premature and inappropriate? Dr. MAS usually posts between 8-10 PM and between 2-8 AM Pacific time, which is probably between 9-11 AM and between 3-9 PM his time. I think he does not post from home. Since he mentioned 'leaving the institute, he probably posts from work or maybe his computer club. Homeo Man posts within this time frame, which could mean he also does not post from home. Maybe he is one of Dr. MAS's associates.

Non-Sense Homeopath usually posts at around 6 PM PDT, which would probably be 7 AM in Dr. MAS's time zone.

So their posting patterns are different, whatever that means.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
How does homeopathy work? for this purpose, a thread was initiated. wait for dr.mas to come.

He is engaged in organizing 4th national seminar which will be held on 29th of may. I will also be there.

This is between me and delphi_ote. You and MAS keep out!

I'd hate for you to think I wasn't showing courage by bothering you, MAS, my brother, sisters, Rolfe's mother, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Yes, I saw that bit. But it's not strictly accurate, is it? It's 6.022 x 10 <SUP>20</SUP> sulphate ions, but twice that many sodium ions.

Just to be picky.

Rolfe.

Dammit, you're right!

Edited to add;

See that, MAS. Rolfe and I made mistakes and corrected each other. We have both learnt (or, at least, been reminded of) something. So, all you have to do is answer the questions you've been asked and learn from the replies you get. Dead easy!

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
:dl:

I'm sorry, the concept of my mother even knowing how to turn on a computer is so hysterically funny that I probably won't be able to stop laughing for a week. (Except that, sadly, her eyesight is so poor she probably wouldn't be able to read the screen if she did manage it.)

Rolfe.

Do you think MAS writes in his big coloured letters for her benefit?

"MAS and Rolfe's Mum sitting in a tree,
Kay..I..esS..esS..I..eN..Gee"

Yet, I'd always assumed he wrote like that because it is the internet equivalent of writing in crayon.

[Rolfe]

It's 6.022 x 10<SUP>20</SUP> sulphate ions, but twice that many sodium ions.So, we started with a mole (6.022 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium sulphate. However, when we dissolved it, we then had one mole (6.022 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sulphate ions, and two moles (12.044 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium ions. So, three moles (18.066 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of ions in total.

Could this be the root of some of Mas's misconceptions? That when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more particles than you (theoretically) had in the first place? So he thinks that every time you make another dilution, the number of particles grows? One or two of the obscure remarks he's made might be interpreted that way.

I've put this point to him in clear several times, and Geni has said something very similar, but he just ignores these posts in favour of asking again about people's qualifications. Either he doesn't understand what we're saying, or he simply can't answer it, I think.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Could this be the root of some of Mas's misconceptions? That when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more particles than you (theoretically) had in the first place? So he thinks that every time you make another dilution, the number of particles grows? One or two of the obscure remarks he's made might be interpreted that way.

I've put this point to him in clear several times, and Geni has said something very similar, but he just ignores these posts in favour of asking again about people's qualifications. Either he doesn't understand what we're saying, or he simply can't answer it, I think.

Rolfe.

Indeed, it's his disingenuous failure even to try to answer these questions that reveal him to be an utterly contemptible hypocrite. At least if he answered and got the answers wrong he could be answering honestly, but his steadfast refusal to answer questions that he, himself, has prompted shows a knowingness that I find literally sickening.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
You remove the masks and that was not rolfe but her mother.The thread seems all dead. So just to liven it up, here is a picture of my mother. The guy in the picture is Soapy Sam.

http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/JREF/soapysams.jpg

Her name is Anne, and I can assure you, if she ever expresses a desire to post here, I will register her with her own login. :p

Rolfe.

PS. Sorry, BSM, cross-post. I didn't realise you'd already livened up the proceedings. Mum says hi, by the way.

[geni]

Hmm looks like MAS is creaping towards that stimulates the immune system rubish.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Rolfe
So, we started with a mole (6.022 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium sulphate. However, when we dissolved it, we then had one mole (6.022 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sulphate ions, and two moles (12.044 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium ions. So, three moles (18.066 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of ions in total.

Could this be the root of some of Mas's misconceptions? That when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more particles than you (theoretically) had in the first place? So he thinks that every time you make another dilution, the number of particles grows? One or two of the obscure remarks he's made might be interpreted that way.

I've put this point to him in clear several times, and Geni has said something very similar, but he just ignores these posts in favour of asking again about people's qualifications. Either he doesn't understand what we're saying, or he simply can't answer it, I think.

Rolfe. A number of us have asked the homeopaths what happens at the SECOND dilution during the remedy-making process, the first one being the only one where this ionisation happens. Kumar, bless his cotton-wool brain, responded with some childish chemistry about building steroid-affected water molecules at each dilution! :rolleyes:

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Zep
A number of us have asked the homeopaths what happens at the SECOND dilution during the remedy-making process, the first one being the only one where this ionisation happens. Kumar, bless his cotton-wool brain, responded with some childish chemistry about building steroid-affected water molecules at each dilution! :rolleyes: This is intriguing me. When Mas came out with some of his ideas, it was at once easy and yet difficult to see where he was going.

Oh, but you get more molecules when you make the dilutions. What? We know that when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more "moles" than you started with, also in some cases it might be possible that a complex molecule could break down into two or more simpler ones. But as Geni pointed out, there are some remedies where that is quite impossible, and in any case, the effect is strictly limited to the very start of the process and would barely alter the stage at which Avogadro's limit was reached in the diluting steps.

Oh, but the remedy might react with the solvent, thus producing more molecules. Of what? The solvent only has O, H and C atoms in it, therefore any further reaction is limited to molecules composed of O, H and C. If the actual remedy substance has different atoms, silver or sulphur or whatever, then there's no reaction will produce any more of these. Thus, this suggestion is in a way just a variation on the old "memory of water" idea. And of course, nobody has ever been able to demonstrate the existence of any complex hydrocarbons or carbohydrates in the final dilutions anyway.

Oh, but you're forgetting probability theory, the pipette might pick up less or more than 1% of the solute each time. Er, we know quite a lot about pipetting accuracy, and we know that the chance of it being out by more than 5% (of the 1%) (at a generous estimate) is remote. Probability theory also tells us that such errors will tend to cancel out, with again a very low probability that successive operations would all err on the same side. Regularly, repeatably and reliably getting substantially more than the nominal amount is impossible unless the instruments are badly calibrated. (Even Kumar understood this, when he started suggesting special pores in the glass, and coating the glassware with remedy substance.) Again, pipetting imprecision wouldn't change the dilution at which you'd arrive at Avogadro's limit. (And could never explain why all the bottles of a remedy preparation would have active ingredient in them.)

So, where might Mas have been going with these ideas? It's obvious that in fact they go nowhere. But I'm beginning to suspect that he didn't realise this. He just saw the beginning of the idea, and jumped straight to "well, that explains it!", without actually doing the working. Then when he saw us instantly do the working for him, and demonstrate that the ideas were baseless, he bottled? Is it possible that anyone could be so stupid?

Well, if I'm wrong, maybe he'll explain. I'm not holding my breath though.

Rolfe.

[Doc2005]

I think, we must appreciate Dr. MAS, he is going well. He has 18 years of teaching experience.

The words from Hans are very important to discuss "mrc_hans said "Hold on there! Nobody denies that many substances, including the ones mentioned, give certain symptoms, when taken in appropriate doses.

So, belladonna and potassium cyanate each invokes their characterisic symptom profile when given to a healthy person, in a suitable dose that is large enough to invoke symptoms, but not large enough to be dangerous."

Skeptics are accepting points one by one. But they don't what they want to discuss. They have accepted that during belladonna proving symptoms were born which are mentioned in materia medica. This is very good going.

Well done Dr. MAS
full marks to you.

[MRC_Hans]

Uhm.. Welcome to the forum.

Originally posted by Doc2005
I think, we must appreciate Dr. MAS, he is going well. He has 18 years of teaching experience. Cool. Have you any guess as to when he will start teaching, then?


Hans

[Donks]

Originally posted by Doc2005
I think, we must appreciate Dr. MAS, he is going well. He has 18 years of teaching experience.
Hmm....

[Doc2005]

I have been given instruction by the principle to get registeration and take dr. mas extra periods. :D

We will educate you as much as you can digest easily. :D I think, two periods per week are enough.

Pleaes don't consider me dr.mas, as I am living some 345 kilometers away from his residence.

[geni]

Originally posted by Doc2005
I have been given instruction by the principle to get registeration and take dr. mas extra periods. :D

We will educate you as much as you can digest easily. :D I think, two periods per week are enough.


If I can handle 4 straight hour of degree level physical chem then I think I can handle this sub GCSE stuff without any problems. So far MAs seems to be going for the terminaly stupid stimulates the immune system line (hint helium has no effect on the immune system).


Pleaes don't consider me dr.mas, as I am living some 345 kilometers away from his residence.

We shall see

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Doc2005
I have been given instruction by the principle to get registeration and take dr. mas extra periods. :D

We will educate you as much as you can digest easily. :D I think, two periods per week are enough.




Well here's a nice place to start. Answer this question that MAS and his 18 years of teaching experience seem unable to answer.


Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na₂SO₄ solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 10²³ of each of the component moieties of Na₂SO₄. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 10²².

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 10²⁰ of each of the components of Na₂SO₄.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Remember, according to probality law, it is quite possible that the 2nd starting material drop may not contain any molecule of 1st starting material (because that drop was picked up blindly from the bottle) and it may or may not contain 50% of the 1st starting material or may contain 99% of the starting material.

How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 10²⁰?

Edited to add;
p.s. Iin case you hadn't realised what is going on here, I am going to keep reminding MAS that he cannot answer this question until he makes an attempt to do so. Don't forget he started this by making the ridiculous assertion that I have quoted in the middle of this post.

He's had several weeks now to answer this. I wonder why he hasn't been able to.

[Jocce]

Originally posted by Doc2005
Skeptics are accepting points one by one. But they don't what they want to discuss. They have accepted that during belladonna proving symptoms were born which are mentioned in materia medica. This is very good going.

Well done Dr. MAS full marks to you.

Welcome to the forum then Doc. You should be aware that noone here has ever rejected the idea that certain substances, in large enough doses, can cause characteristic symptoms when consumed. Maybe it's some language barrier or something but this seems very hard to explain to you people.

What has been rejected is the idea that "like cures like" and that ultra molar dilutions have the physiological effects you claim.

[grunion]

I don't think we can let sloppy thinking off the hook by blaming it on a "language barrier" in this case. Dr. MAS and his <strike>sock puppets</strike> associates are quite capable of expressing themselves adequately in English.

I haven't posted in this forum before, and as far as homeopathy goes, can claim only what knowledge I have learned here and elsewhere through casual perusal of the Internet. Nor do I have more than a layman's knowledge of chemistry or biology. But I am a skeptic and won't accept the basis for what is claimed to be a "new modality in medicine," even if it is 200 years old, without some scientific basis that at least passes rigor in my non-much-better-than-average-educated mind.

There can be little doubt that various roots and herbs and other "alternative therapies" indeed have effects when ingested or injected. Some might be positive, some not. It is up to the claimant to explain and prove these effects before the rational world will accept them as remedies.

I think on a high level the claim can be made that "like cures like" might be an abstraction of how vaccines work - by subjecting an organism to a small number of weakened or dead cells of the offending bacteria/virus/germ, an immune response can be triggered which prevents or limits future, more potent incursions by the pathogen.

But in the case of ultra-diluted homeopathic solutions, where's the "like"? As was asked (but not answered) several times already, after so many dilutions as to entirely eliminate the triggering substance, where is the trigger, beyond (and I know I am jumping ahead in the textbook here, dear professor, kindly forgive me) some hokum about the water retaining a "memory" of the cure? If water indeed does retain memory, why wouldn't ALL water EVERYWHERE contain the memories of everything that has ever gotten wet?

Every single claim for a vaccine must be subject to rigorous and repeated double blind testing for its claim to be accepted as scientifically valid. Claims and test results must be published and subject to peer review by scientists from a number of disciplines. Valid theories as to why the result was obtained, though not absolutely essential, will certainly help prod the rational world into accepting their validity as a cure. That is what the scientific method is, and that is all that skeptics ask. We are still waiting.

Where the "language barrier" can possibly be indicated as the basis for misunderstanding here is in the very definition of "skeptic." As with many of my native-English speaking friends, it is possible that our Pakistani correspondents here have intertwined "skeptic" with "cynic." "How can you be so skeptical about everything - don't you live in fear that you are constantly in danger of being ripped off or poisoned or whatever?" Just because we are skeptics it doesn't mean we don't have a basic trust in people's innate honesty, goodness and desire to work together in the common interest. Not true of all skeptics, but true of me. Now I may be far too generous here, but (giving them the benefit of the doubt) since this thread (as well as the other one in Forum Administration) has also been used continually remind us of the relative ease with which a dishonest user might post under multiple aliases, and some of the posters here have been accused such, I suspect that what is actually going on here is that they percieve they are trying to get a bunch of cynics to accept something on faith, and some trickster is trying to prevent them from getting their message through.

[athon]

Originally posted by grunion
II think on a high level the claim can be made that "like cures like" might be an abstraction of how vaccines work - by subjecting an organism to a small number of weakened or dead cells of the offending bacteria/virus/germ, an immune response can be triggered which prevents or limits future, more potent incursions by the pathogen.


On a small, nit-picky point...

This always get's my goat. Immunisation and the law of similars are at the base level completely different.

The Law of Similars describes two completely different causes of a set of symptoms, the 'similar' being the similarity of symptoms produced by both the substance and the treated condition. Immunity relies on having a complex chemical (antigen) being introduced to the immune system, one that is identical to that present in a pathogen capable of producing described symptoms.

In other words, in immunisation it is essentially the same substance being administered, homeopathy it is a completely different substanc. We know why immunisation can prevent symptoms from occuring, but we have no evidence that homeopathy can cure symptoms after they have appeared.

Very, very different things. Of course, homeopaths find that rather inconvenient.

Athon

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by athon
...
The Law of Similars ...

It is NOT a natural law... it was a wild -Rule 8- guess. A guess that was wrong 200 hundred years ago and is still wrong today.

So, "Doc2005", who is taking place of "Dr." MAS (a fellow who apparently has been teaching for 18 years without learning the basics of highschool chemistry). please explain the precedures and repeatable experiments that would show this "Law" to acturally be true.

[grunion]

Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
It is NOT a natural law... it was a wild -Rule 8- guess. A guess that was wrong 200 hundred years ago and is still wrong today. Indeed, in my attempt to bend over backwards to lend some credence to the "like cures like" homily I certainly didn't mean to imply that there was an equivalence between the way that it is applied by scientists and by homeopaths. I see more logical continuity on a bottle of Dr. Bronner's Soap than in Dr. MAS' posts.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Doc2005
They have accepted that during belladonna proving symptoms were born which are mentioned in materia medica. This is very good going.Oh? I certainly don't recall accepting that. Please have a look at all the published trials of the "proving" effects of Belladonna.

G<FONT SIZE="-1">OODYEAR</FONT>, K., L<FONT SIZE="-1">EWITH</FONT>, G. & L<FONT SIZE="-1">OW</FONT>, J. L. (1998) Randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial of homoeopathic 'proving' for Belladonna C30. (http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/abstract/91/11/579) J. R. Soc. Med. 91(11), 579-82.

B<FONT SIZE="-1">RIEN</FONT>, S., L<FONT SIZE="-1">EWITH</FONT>, G. & B<FONT SIZE="-1">RYANT</FONT>, T. (2003) Ultramolecular homeopathy has no observable clinical effects. A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled proving trial of Belladonna 30C. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14651731&dopt=Abstract) Br. J. Clin. Pharmacol. 56(5), 562-568.

W<FONT SIZE="-1">ALACH</FONT>, H. (1993) Does a highly diluted homeopathic drug act as a placebo in healthy volunteers? Experimental study of Belladonna 30C in a double blind crossover design - a pilot study. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=8301625&dopt=Abstract) J. Psychosomatic Res. 37(8), 851-860.

W<FONT SIZE="-1">ALACH</FONT>, H., K<FONT SIZE="-1">OSTER</FONT>, H., H<FONT SIZE="-1">ENNIG</FONT>, T., & H<FONT SIZE="-1">AAG</FONT>, G. (2001) The effects of homeopathic belladonna 30CH in healthy volunteers - a randomized, double-blind experiment. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=11316508&dopt=Citation) J. Psychosomatic Res. 50(3), 155-160.

All studies failed to find any difference between the effect of Belladonna 30C and a placebo on healthy people in a "proving" trial. All studies were carried out by homoeopaths (both Lewith and Walach are strong advocates of homoeopathy) and the protocols approved by homoeopaths. Yet they found no effect attributable to the belladonna.

So no, I do not accept the assertion that a belladonna "proving" shows any effects.

This illustrates some of the nonsense that homoeopathy has become. We all know that appreciable quantities of extract of Deadly Nightshade will have certain effects on healthy people. There's a reason for it being called "Deadly Nightshade" after all. And we know that the plant contains compounds known as the "belladonna alkaloids" (including atropine and hyoscine) which are widely used in real medicine. However, nowadays "provings" aren't done on appreciable quantities of anything, they're done on the magic sugar pills (content-free). Hence it's no surprise that nobody can actually tell whether they've been given the real thing or the placebo.

I repeat for our new "teacher", please provide the evidence you have that "like cures like" is a natural law. Bearing in mind that Hahnemann's original observation of a feverish effect from cinchona bark was mistaken (it doesn't occur in other people), and in any case we know that the reason cinchona bark is active against malaria is that it contains quinine, which is toxic to the malarial parasite. And bearing in mind that modern provings are done using content-free preparations, therefore how can you possibly show that any effects observed have anything to do with the supposed (but not present) remedy.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I'm not sure this link has been given yet. anor and Hans are trying to explain the mechanics of diluting again. The thread was started by "Homeo Man", who shows exactly the specific misunderstanding of basic chemistry of which we, especially Rolfe, have been accusing them.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=27

"At this stage, dr.mas is very right in pointing out that when “Beginning material� is changed into “Resulting substance� then you can’t count the previous beginning material for the second potency in Avogadro number. This number law is failed at very first stage.

Let me explain more, a chemical reaction is the material changing from a “beginning mass� to a “resulting substance�. In the result of a chemical reaction, new material or materials are made, along with the disappearance of the mass that changed to make the new. Homeopathic substance Aconite or belladonna have so many inorganic and organic “COMPOUNDS�, few will react with water or alcohol during mother tincture formation, few are soluble in water or alcohol and few are not. Few will form new compounds during reaction and few will not but how Avogadro's Law (Avogadro's law: equal volumes of all gases, measured under the same conditions of temperature and pressure, contain the same number of molecules) is applicable throughout dilution process? This is beyond my comprehension. "

(I don't know why there are all those weird characters. This is how my browser shows their text).

What it boils down to is that they don't understand that chemistry occurs between atoms, but chemical processes preserve atoms even if they do not necessarily preserve molecules. How gross must be the failing of their basic school science education that they regard themselves as experts while bearing this woeful misconception? I mean to say, if they have not grasped this concept then none of chemistry can make any sense to them whatsoever. This is precisely as for Kumar who thinks you can just juggle the letters on a page and regard taht has having some chemical meaning.

"Somewhat alike H2O>>OH2"

" O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on."

I've had no problem describing the concept of atoms and molecules to my 6 year old son. Do our opponents post from a kindergarten class where these ideas have not been discussed yet? It would explain a lot.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
I'm not sure this link has been given yet. anor and Hans are trying to explain the mechanics of diluting again. The thread was started by "Homeo Man", who shows exactly the specific misunderstanding of basic chemistry of which we, especially Rolfe, have been accusing them.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=27Ah, that's the source for the now-set-in-stone assertion that we've agreed that "homoeopathy works at 18X". Three potencies, 6X, 18X and 30X were mentioned, and Anor277 agreed that there might be actual remedy substance in the 18X but not the 30X.

It seems as if "Nonsense" has looked at the fact that Belladonna is a mish-mash mixture of plant compounds (as I said, including chlorophyll and DNA and cellulose and all sorts), and decided that the calculations don't apply to such a mixture.

Obviously, not having an exact chemical composition of the mother tincture makes the calculations approximate, and as I said in an earlier post, it also raises the question as to whether you get a different effect from your pill if it happens to have a molecule of chlorophyll stuck to it, as opposed to a molecule of atropine. Nevertheless, whether you start with a mixture of different molecules, or a homogenous solution, you still run out of material in just the same way, which I don't think these maroons have quite grasped.

Oh, but the molecules react! Well, some of the macromolecules might well break down a bit, and you could end up with more smaller molecules when you started with fewer larger molelcules. But that isn't even going to alter the point at which the Avogadro limit kicks in by a single C dilution.

Yes but they react with the solvent!!!

So? To form what? How are you going to get any more of a substance that contains something other than O, H and C atoms by any possible reaction? And even if you're making claims based simply on new CHO-containing compounds being formed in the solutions, how about showing that such reactions are energetically possible (I thought homoeopaths knew all sorts of things about energy, so maybe they can tell how much energy it will take for a molecule of acetone to form from a mixture of water and ethanol....). And then how about demonstrating the reaction products in the final preparation?

Sigh. Looks as if I was right. They've just jumped on an aspect they don't really understand, think they see a loophole, and declared victory, without any attempt to think through their argument.

You know, this is pretty futile. Do you see John Saxton, or Peter Gregory, or John Hoare, or Mark Elliott, or Chris Day, or Neil Coode, or Peter Fisher or Lionel Milgrom or Kathy Ryan trying to argue that the Avogadro limit doesn't apply and there is actual physical remedy presence in a 30C potency? Even Divina and Snoopy and Leela and David Johnson and even Mad Albert wouldn't suggest such a thing. Nor would Barb or Naturalhealth/Homeoskeptic/Corallinus/Sarah-I, or Xanta/Gold/Olaf/QII/Yaw (what is it with homoeopaths and sock puppets anyway?), or Gavinimurthy or any of the other slightly better educated homoeopaths who have come here. We've just hit a tiny seam of astoundingly ignorant and isolated people who don't seem to have the intellectual capacity or the education to see that their ideas are nonsense.

It's been entertaining, but it's getting less so. Is it worth it, I wonder?

Rolfe.

PS. I've just notived that "Nonsense" has also become confused because he's apparently looked up the correct definition of "Avogadro's Law" and quoted that as being about the relationship of pressure, temperature and volume of a gas. He therefore thinks that that's what we're trying to apply to homoeopathic dilutions, rather than the concept of Avogadro's limit, which is that after a certain point you run out of starting material. Oh dear.

[Dr. MAS]

Detail Reply has been given at

www.nchpakistan.com forum due to some pictures. This forum is not providing assistance to me to upload pictures.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Detail Reply has been given at

www.nchpakistan.com forum due to some pictures. This forum is not providing assistance to me to upload pictures. A detailed reply to what? The only vaguely relevant post I can find is in this (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28) thread, in which you have posted a link to a picture of a bee, and an out of focus picture of somebody's hand. I don't see why you think that the photos are so essential to the meaning of the post that you can't post it here without them. It may surprise you to find out that most, if not all, of the people posting on this forum have seen a bee.

If this is not the post you are referring to, is there any chance that you could provide a link to the thread where you've posted your reply, rather than to the site as a whole? It shouldn't really be beyond you to copy and paste an url, should it. Or are you just being obstructive again?

Edited to add the bit about the picture of the hand, which I hadn't noticed at first

[Donks]

Originally posted by Mojo
A detailed reply to what? The only vaguely relevant post I can find is in this (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28) thread, in which you have posted a link to a picture of a bee. I don't see why you think that the photo is so essential to the meaning of the post that you can't post it here without it. It may surprise you to find out that most, if not all, of the people posting on this forum have seen a bee.
I was even stung by a bee once! It was drowning in a pool, I felt bad about it, and rescued it. Since no good deed goes unpunished, I got stung for my efforts.

If this is not the post you are referring to, is there any chance that you could provide a link to the thread where you've posted your reply, rather than to the site as a whole? It shouldn't really be beyond you to copy and paste an url, should it. Ore are you just being obstructive again?
I vote for obstruction.

[Mojo]

So that it can be discussed more conveniently here, here's MAS's post I referred to above. The bee was posted in a separate post 5 minutes later.Originally posted by Dr. MAS here ( http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28)
Discussing on net is something different and to do experiment for collecting actual information is totally different. In my opinion, you people only have book knowledge and you never experimented to prove anything. Why I got this impression?

First you claimed homeopathic medicines have no molecules in above 18x potency (you quoted hypothetical equation which was based on Avogadro’s number, I rejected that equation by presenting scientific facts) hence it does not work being the reason, there is no molecules in above 18x. Hence there is no question of working homeopathic dilutions in above 18x potency?

When it was asked to confirm, does homeopathic medicine work under 18x, as these have molecules (that was your claim it has molecules in below 18x), you came and said, whether it works or not just explain to us the working of homeopathic medicine? Is this the scientific approach, you are talking about? Just reply according to the question, whether it works in below 18x when the dilution contain molecules……????

This shows your attitude of unscientific nature. If you are the followers of scientific rules then what is your standpoint on this issue? Whether homeopathic medicine does work in 6x, 12x or 18x or not? If you deny then it is very easy for us to deny “Velosef (a famous allopathic drug) also does not work� because denying something without justification is also no problem to us. This is not the proper way of discussion. If you will keep on denying then how can we participate in fruitful discussion and how can you understand… “How does homeopathy work?�

(A) To find out the answer of this question, first we must admit whether homeopathy does work?????? Or not????

(B) If it works then in which potency? If not work, then why?

© And in which potency it does not work?

(D) If it works under 12x potency then how does it work? And if it does not work in 12x then provide any practical proof with reference to known scientific laws as you (yourself) stated.

Without knowing the answers of these questions, tell me how can I teach you when you have made an attitude that you will keep on denying and you will not come with “YES� answer, when you have also made up your minds that you will not accept any thing from Dr. MAS whether I am saying right or wrong?

You can read my above lectures. All are based on facts, I also presented examples from your science books but again you denied and came with the words “don’t waste our time in irrelevant question and answers just explain to us how does homeopathy work�, mine position is, if you will not follow my lecture and if you will not give me feed back on my questions, then tell me the method of instruction, which may I adopt to teach you how does homeopathy work?

Let me explain my point of view by presenting another practical application (because I am not book worm who only has book knowledge, I am a practical man who believes on experimental conclusions). This is purely based on scientific facts. I am looking forward to hear replies from you.

As I said earlier, I have observed very keenly the provings of different homeopathic medicines. I have also delivered so many lectures on plants and animals provings. I have also participated in many seminars as resource person and delivered lecture on different diseases like hepatitis, AIDS and Diabetes etc

(A record from my personal file)

(IMG:http://img144.echo.cx/img144/4056/proving37hq.jpg)

She was the student of 1st year DHMS. She agreed to prove Apis on herself. Apis was placed on her backhands, face and legs. After stung, following symptoms were produced.

stinging,
burning pain,
swelling locally
Soreness
redness.

When cold and warm application were applied at different parts, following symptoms were observed

Swelling – Cold application >

Open air >

Thirst decrease

Urticaria symptoms were also seen on other body parts.

The method of scientific study is, if you found the same result after so many experiments at different level then it become a law. The Newton third law “For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction� was not become a “LAW� on the very first instance. Many experiments were carried and each scientist came with the same results then it became a “law�.

Our scientific study shows that whenever apis will bite, an allergic reaction will be observed in negligible, less, mild, moderate or severe or intense etc form depending upon the person susceptibility. Newton’s third law is whenever you will perform action (force) you will get opposite response, it is not possible that Apis injected the Venom / Formic acid into the person and you don’t find the response, yes, sometime the response would be so slow that it cannot be detect through naked eye or it cannot be measured through devices except some mental changeability.

The toxic effect apis venom are paralysis of the nervous system, increase in the permeability of the blood capillaries, and destruction of red blood cells. But this will always not happened due to known susceptibility and chemical changes. But you can't say, in low quantity you cannot bring those changes. Even a single molecule when enters into the body it always cause those changes which I mentioned but these changes are negligible, less, moderate, severe and intense etc. if these are less then it will not come over to indicators or labs cannot detect them. But this does not mean that you start deny the change. If I slightly touch your body with my forefinger then this does not mean that your body has not given the equal reaction as stated in 3rd law.


To prove this observation, I again carried out many experiments on different person and in few healthy person no apparent change (including pathological) were observed except that healthy person said, “I am feeling myself absent mind� which pathological lab will prove this?

[flume]

Dr. MAS:
Are you having trouble translating and understanding people's responses? Or are you not reading them at all? Did you miss the talk about the 18x potency? Did you miss the posts where people talked about their experimental backgrounds?

Talking to you is like talking to someone who is using a cell phone low on batteries at the edge of its range, while he is driving in and out of tunnels. The communication is very poor. I don't think you are hearing us.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Mojo
So that it can be discussed more conveniently here, here's MAS's post I referred to above. The bee was posted in a separate post 5 minutes later.

Just a cotton pickin' minute. I assumed we would be talking about "apis" a homeopathic remedy, but I think he is actually describing someone being stung by a real bee then describing the symptoms.

" After stung, following symptoms were produced."

The f8ckwits are just putting real bees on a gormless woman and seeing what happens.

Never mind that he doesn't know which end of a bee is the dangerous one;

"Our scientific study shows that whenever apis will bite..."

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I don't think I am alone in finding it slightly scary and worrying that someone who has so little ability to string logical thoughts together is 'teaching' people and messing with people's health.

I find his combination of arrogance and ignorance deeply offensive.

[flume]

I was hoping he wouldn't try to prove Crotalus on a student :( .

[El Greco]

The only thing that calms me down when I think of Dr. MAS is that he has a lot of excuses since he lives in a country where medical care and education aren't exactly among the best in the world. I'm much more enraged when I think of homeopaths in more developed countries. How can we worry about Dr. MAS when there are numerous Dr. MASes in our immediate vicinity ?

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
What it boils down to is that they don't understand that chemistry occurs between atoms, but chemical processes preserve atoms even if they do not necessarily preserve molecules. How gross must be the failing of their basic school science education that they regard themselves as experts while bearing this woeful misconception?


I've had no problem describing the concept of atoms and molecules to my 6 year old son. Do our opponents post from a kindergarten class where these ideas have not been discussed yet? It would explain a lot.

MAS, just in case you haven't kept up with the advances in knowledge of the last 200 years, which you clearly have not since you worship Hahnemann, here is another 200 year old theory that you really need to catch up with;

Dalton's Atomic Theory (http://www.chemsoc.org/timeline/pages/1803.html)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

This was written by MAS at the NCH forum (my emphasis);


"Hi Skepticpath

Thanks for the links.

Hi Hans

I have been told by a net chatter that Einstein proved his equation on a paper (logically and scientifically) and won noble prize. If the problem is to prove "Homeopathy" then many protocols can be defined, why "DBT" specially?


{2) The demonstration, in a double blind placebo controlled (DBPC) trial on real patients, that homeopathic remedies have better curative effects than placebo. Hans}

What do you mean by blinded study. This can be proved easily if you want to see the efficacy of placebo dilution and homeopathic dilution. Although both are identical. Me not understood, what is his actuall demand. Did he interested in proving chemical effects of dilution or medicinal effect on patients?"

But what about this caption from MAS giving one of his lectures to those poor students;

Prof Dr. MAS_is delivering lecture on "Research Methodology in Homoeopathy"

Must have been a pretty feeble lecture given by someone who doesn't know what a blinded study is.

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
This was written by MAS at the NCH forum (my emphasis);


"Hi Skepticpath

Thanks for the links.

Hi Hans

I have been told by a net chatter that Einstein proved his equation on a paper (logically and scientifically) and won noble prize. If the problem is to prove "Homeopathy" then many protocols can be defined, why "DBT" specially?


{2) The demonstration, in a double blind placebo controlled (DBPC) trial on real patients, that homeopathic remedies have better curative effects than placebo. Hans}

What do you mean by blinded study. This can be proved easily if you want to see the efficacy of placebo dilution and homeopathic dilution. Although both are identical. Me not understood, what is his actuall demand. Did he interested in proving chemical effects of dilution or medicinal effect on patients?"

But what about this caption from MAS giving one of his lectures to those poor students;

Prof Dr. MAS_is delivering lecture on "Research Methodology in Homoeopathy"

Must have been a pretty feeble lecture given by someone who doesn't know what a blinded study is.

It's pretty sad that a man who supposedly has 10 gazillion degrees, doesn't even understand basic research principles...

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
This was written by MAS at the NCH forum ([b]I have been told by a net chatter that Einstein proved his equation on a paper (logically and scientifically) and won noble prize.
That is the difference between the trained scientists here and you.
I would like to ask you if you can cite the "equation" for which Einstein won the Nobel Prize?
Trickquestion

[Rolfe]

What strikes me most clearly from that post of Mas's that Mojo kindly reproduced is his shaky grasp of ordinary reality.First you claimed homeopathic medicines have no molecules in above 18x potencyNo, I really don't think we did. Our quoted figures for the Avogadro limit were 12C and 24X. So he's completely wrong. In fact we agree that there are probably some molecules in an 18X potency. (you quoted hypothetical equation which was based on Avogadro’s number, I rejected that equation by presenting scientific facts)I can't see anywhere where we presented an "equation" of any sort. There were various examples, and quite a few factual assertions, but no actual equation.

And no, Mas didn't "reject" the non-existent quotation by presenting anything, and certainly not anything resembling facts. He did come out with several half-baked remarks about vague and unspecified reactions, and wildly unlikely happenings where normal probability theory is suspended causing all the molecules to rush into his pipette, but there wasn't a single fact in there.A hence it does not work being the reason, there is no molecules in above 18x. Hence there is no question of working homeopathic dilutions in above 18x potency?No, Mas, it's 24X (and 12C). We've told you often enough, why can't you remember?When it was asked to confirm, does homeopathic medicine work under 18x, as these have molecules (that was your claim it has molecules in below 18x), you came and said, whether it works or not just explain to us the working of homeopathic medicine? Is this the scientific approach, you are talking about? Just reply according to the question, whether it works in below 18x when the dilution contain molecules……????Could anyone possibly find any quote within this or any other forum where any sceptic has actually replied to this effect? No, I didn't think so.

It's easy to argue when you simply ignore what the opposition has actually said, and make up a straw man for yourself. When you simply don't read the refutations of your half-baked positions, and instead confidently declare victory based on a fictitious account of the argument. And especially when you fun to another forum and falsely represent what has been said here to your own benefit.

I'll try it just one more time.

Mas, we KNOW that there are no molecules of the original mother tincture in potencies above about 24X and 12C. This is based on the "Law of the Conservation of Matter". Go look it up.We also know that there are no unexpected molecules of anything else in high-potency homoeopathic remedies. We thus state categorically that homoeopathic preparations cannot have any physiological effect above these dilutions. You have so far presented absolutely zero evidence to suggest the contrary.

Low-potency remedies are a different question. We see no reason to suppose that these "work" in the sense that any of the cures you claim are real. However, we would find it less startling if there were some sort of effect there, as we know there are some residual quantities of the mother tincture present. So, a claim for low-potency homoepathic remedies doing something is just a routine claim for herbal medicine, which is nothing special.

Mas, you seem to be declaring repeatedly that there are indeed molecules other than the stock solvent present in homoeopathic potencies greater than 12C and 24X. We would be interested in seeing a coherent explanation for this belief, because so far you haven't even come close.

Rolfe.

PS. I just noticed the following:I also presented examples from your science books but again you denied and came with the words “don’t waste our time in irrelevant question and answers just explain to us how does homeopathy work�, mine position is, if you will not follow my lecture and if you will not give me feed back on my questions, then tell me the method of instruction, which may I adopt to teach you how does homeopathy work?He thinks we didn't give him feedback? It's true, he can't even read.

[Rolfe]

Oh, cancel all that. I'm beginning to think debating Mas is about as constructive as debating the Time Cube guy.

Mas, if you ever grow a brain, let me know.

Rolfe.

[Gaga]

hallo Rolfe,
The thing about 18x potency stems from a thread on the nhc forum (here (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=27)) and it was started by Non-sense Homeopath, go figure...
Re mas' brain, I think that the problem is that, like the nickname, the whole family is sharing only one. (as per mas qualification thread)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Gaga
hallo Rolfe,
The thing about 18x potency stems from a thread on the nhc forum (here (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=27)) and it was started by Non-sense Homeopath, go figure...Yeah, I saw it. But the surreal thing is, at first that exchange was used to assert that sceptics admit homoeopathy works at 18X. Now, however, Mas seems to have reversed that, and is accusing us of claiming that there are no molecules in 18X.

He can't even keep his own misconceptions straight.

However, since it's not just the sceptics who agree that there are no molecules with talking about over 24X and 12C, it's the entire homoeopathic establishment in the entire developed world, I'm not sure it's worth continuing this debate. I thought it might be fun if Mas had actually presented some concrete arguments in support of his case, but since all he does is say "I reject your argument", then go over to another forum and boast about how scientifically he refuted our errors, it's getting a bit boring.

Rolfe.

[flume]

I have been reading the nchpakistan board but I never registered, and I did not post as a guest either.
But someone else has registered and posted as flume.
Confusing. Nothing wrong with that, just confusing.
It isn't me.

Non-Sense Homeopath has posted there today and is once more arguing something about Avogadro's number not applying because some remedies (e.g. nux vomica) contain lots of different molecules, or something like that.

[Perpetual Notion]

Holy cr@p. Those jerk-*ffs have created accounts with all our names on it. BSM has TWO accounts. There's an account with my username that was created yesterday and I never even visited the site until today. What a bunch of unethical pigs.

[Perpetual Notion]

Hi MAS and all your little cronies. I see you're cutting and pasting my posts and the posts of others to try and get us banned from our own forum by placing them on your forum at nchpakistan in the skeptic area. Is this really what you must stoop to in order to evade simple questions about homeopathy? How do you think all the skeptics are going to feel when they see you are using their usernames like this? How do you think other homeopaths will feel when they see how you behave? You are all truly, truly pathetic.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Holy cr@p. Those jerk-*ffs have created accounts with all our names on it. BSM has TWO accounts. There's an account with my username that was created yesterday and I never even visited the site until today. What a bunch of unethical pigs.
Whohoo! I have an account over there! Yay me! Wait...

In any case, did you actually expect homeopaths to have ethics? You're trying to get blood form a rock. Or as the same saying goes in Spanish, you're trying to get pears out of the elm tree.

[Perpetual Notion]

Well, either homeopaths don't have ethics or delphi_ote has a personal vendetta against me that I don't know about because he's trying to get me banned!! ;) We're in a homeopathic parallel universe!! :D

[monochrom]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
We're in a homeopathic parallel universe!! :D

That sounds nice. Does it have very little of everything?

I sometimes wish that one could dilute people, especially homeopaths.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Hi MAS and all your little cronies. I see you're cutting and pasting my posts and the posts of others to try and get us banned from our own forum by placing them on your forum at nchpakistan in the skeptic area. Is this really what you must stoop to in order to evade simple questions about homeopathy? How do you think all the skeptics are going to feel when they see you are using their usernames like this? How do you think other homeopaths will feel when they see how you behave? You are all truly, truly pathetic.

No, both those BSM's are me.

Their site lets you post without registering, you just give a name on your post. I then sorted out a yahoo mail account and registered, but got into a muddle with it and had to register a second time dropping the spaces in my identity name, hence "Badly Shaved Monkey" and "BadlyShavedMonkey"

Just trying to get MAS to answer the questions on his home forum if he won't do it here. At leat the embarrassment factor may be higher for him there if public reminders of his failure keep being posted.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Just trying to get MAS to answer the questions on his home forum if he won't do it here. At leat the embarrassment factor may be higher for him there if public reminders of his failure keep being posted. Do you think it's worth it? I mean, these guys are so far out on a limb that we're learning nothing and they're learning nothing.

They clearly have no understanding of what they're saying, but have such overweening self-confidence that they're not going to re-examine their assertions. It would be possible to explain where they were going wrong to any reasonably bright ten-year-old, but I'm honestly now of the opinion that it's going to be impossible to explain it to them.

Non-Sense seems to think that the mother tincture of nux vomica is 1M for every single molecule in the nux vomica plant. And he's only going on vaguely about unspecified reactions he can't define, seemingly with no concept of the law of conservation of matter, implying that subsequent reactions actually create more material. The combination of such enormous misconceptions with such enormous and impenetrable personal pride is, I think, hopeless.

I'll tell you what I'd like to see. One of the scientifically literate homoeopaths who does understand about the conservation of matter and the Avogadro Limit, trying to educate these blockheads!

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Anybody has any experience with Luise Kunkle? She seems to be comparatively rational.

Hans

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Holy cr@p. Those jerk-*ffs have created accounts with all our names on it. BSM has TWO accounts. There's an account with my username that was created yesterday and I never even visited the site until today. What a bunch of unethical pigs. Oh well, if I ever bother registering over there, I guess I'll just have to use our other cat's name. I registered here as Mojo partly because the other cat (her name will, for obvious reasons, not be revealed at this time) is remarkably stupid and gullible, even for a cat, and I therefore didn't feel it was appropriate to register her on a sceptical forum. She should be OK over there though... ;)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Mojo
Oh well, if I ever bother registering over there, I guess I'll just have to use our other cat's name.Ah, good idea, maybe I'll follow suit. (Virtual coconut for those who remember the name of my other cat.) It's just that I don't have BSM's patience for sorting out Yahoo accounts.

"John Richard BSc" sounds interesting - I don't suppose anyone's going to own up to being him? I'd suspect BSM, because his writing style is rather reminiscent, but I know that BSM's real name isn't John Richard. I'm also quite familiar with BSM's inimitable style when trolling the homoeopathic forums, and entertaining though it is, it doesn't involve holding conversations with himself!

I do feel somewhat moved to follow one of BSM's suggestions and turn the conversation to the conservation of the atoms of the mother tincture, rather than the molecules.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Molecules or atoms. What is the difference when none are there? ;)

Seriously, As long as I can't make them understand the simple fact that you can only dilute a finite number of anything a finite number of times, I'm not going into the difference between molecules and atoms :rolleyes:.

Hans

[Donks]

This has got to be the worst course I've ever been in. Even worse than those lameass integration courses in college where the engineers had to take classes with the business and comunications students. I guess you really do get what you pay for.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Molecules or atoms. What is the difference when none are there? ;)

Seriously, As long as I can't make them understand the simple fact that you can only dilute a finite number of anything a finite number of times, I'm not going into the difference between molecules and atoms :rolleyes:.Well it's just that they start talking about reactions. Maybe the macromolecules break down. And maybe the molecules in the mother tincture react with molecules in the solvent.

BSM pointed out that even though molecules aren't preserved in a chemical reaction, atoms are. So, we could allow them to witter vaguely on about reactions all they like, if we focus on the atoms of the mother tincture, and ask them when these run out. Never mind what molecules they happen to be incorporated in, don't you realise you have to run out of atoms at some stage?

Rolfe.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Gaga
hallo Rolfe,
The thing about 18x potency stems from a thread on the nhc forum (here (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=27)) and it was started by Non-sense Homeopath, go figure...
Re mas' brain, I think that the problem is that, like the nickname, the whole family is sharing only one. (as per mas qualification thread)

I am not going to protect dr. mas here. although I know him very well at pakistan level. He is doing right or wrong. This is another issue but this is all paranormal to you but not paranormal to us.

We pakistani (members of mailing list) know him how does he do? and why it is not understandable to you. I will provide evidence whenever it is necessary.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Dear members,

mas is a busy personality in pakistan. he is arranging a seminar. his recent activities can be found here

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=32


A Meeting of world homeopathic computer club’s was held in MAS hotel. 4th national educational seminar was on top agenda. Members agree to arrange the homeopathic seminar in good manner. Guests were finalized and committee’s were formed for completion of tasks. It was decided a committee comprising of Dr. Azhar, Dr. MAS and Dr. Zahid would contact speaker Punjab assembly or Health Minister to invite him as chief guest. MAS hotel staff served Famous Pakistani foods.

http://img286.echo.cx/img286/4590/mashotel16ym.jpg

Dr. MAS is waiting for guest to arrive outside the hotel.

http://img262.echo.cx/img262/4378/mashotel28ly.jpg

A beautiful view of newly built MAS hotel


Dr. Abdul Rehman Syed

Wait for his appearance at this board.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
This is another issue but this is all paranormal to you but not paranormal to us.
Good. Can you then show us how homeopathy works? If you feel like it, you can start by showing the approximate number of atoms of a mother tincture, let's say NaCl, at each level of dilution, fot a 30C remedy.
I will provide evidence whenever it is necessary.
Fantastic, that's the spirit! Parallel to the theoretical quesiton above, you can provide evidence for your, or anyone else's, ability to distinguish a 30C remedy from the stock solvent.

[Perpetual Notion]

Yes, Dr. Sheik, we all know that Mas is a Very Busy Homeopath. Since he's not here and you're willing to provide evidence, how about you have a go at BSM's question. He's been trying to get an answer out of Mas for quite some time. Perhaps you can clear up it. Here's their exchange.

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
MAS, let's say you have a 1ml of 1 molar solution of Na₂SO₄ solution. In 1 litre you would have 6.022 x 10²³ of each of the component moieties of Na₂SO₄. In 100ml you will have 6.022 x 10²².

If you want to use this as the basis for your next 1 in 100 dilution you will draw 1ml into a pipette and add 99ml water.

If the solution was well-mixed when you drew up that 1ml it will contain 6.022 x 10²⁰ of each of the components of Na₂SO₄.

You have suggested that there may be some other number drawn up.



How many? What are the chances that the aspirate will contain a number substantially different from 6.022 x 10²⁰?

[Mouthfire]

Bah... I'm not convinced. Everytime there's a new account originating from Pakistan, I'm just assuming it's another Dr. Mas sock-puppet.... :bs:

[Perpetual Notion]

He's not a sock puppet, but he and Mas are BFF. :)

Anyhoo, let's try to keep our new friend on track. Please Dr. Sheikh, I'm sure you'll have plenty of questions to keep you busy. Please expedite :D

[H3LL]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
http://img262.echo.cx/img262/4378/mashotel28ly.jpg

Are they developing homeopathic paint?

[wahrheit]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
I am not going to protect dr. mas here. although I know him very well at pakistan level. He is doing right or wrong. This is another issue but this is all paranormal to you but not paranormal to us.

We pakistani (members of mailing list) know him how does he do? and why it is not understandable to you. I will provide evidence whenever it is necessary.
This is one of the funniest posts I read for weeks (except the ones in the Humor section, and except the picture of MAS waiting for guests in front of MAS hotel in MAS county).

"He is doing right or wrong."
"We (...) know (...) why it is not understandable to you."

drumroll please:

"I will provide evidence whenever it is necessary."

[Gaga]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
I am not going to protect dr. mas here. although I know him very well at pakistan level. He is doing right or wrong. This is another issue but this is all paranormal to you but not paranormal to us.
Look, there's no need to protect him. As long as he remain evasive and obfuscating about the questions he has been asked I won't change my mind. If Hpathy isn't paranormal then you should be able to come up with a half decent explanation, is any of you minimally interested to share it in comprehensible terms?

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
We pakistani (members of mailing list) know him how does he do? and why it is not understandable to you. I will provide evidence whenever it is necessary.
Ok PERFECT! I've asked it on NHC I do it again here.. Do the math! I'll readily accept an explanation with some logic in it!

Why have I the nagging sensation that this is a masterful, elaborate joke? because of the hotel photos?? :D

[Mouthfire]

I have to wonder, why does MAS keep insisting that we think H'pathy is paranormal?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Mouthfire
I have to wonder, why does MAS keep insisting that we think H'pathy is paranormal? Because it's eligible for the JREF Challenge.

We've explained to him the various ways in which homoeopathy may be described as magic (the activity of a physically unremarkable object which has had a magic spell - the dilution and succussion - performed on it, the vitalism inherent in the basic theorising, and the Sympathetic Magic of "like cures like"). We've also explained to him that in fact we do not believe that homoeopathy is magic, because we don't believe that it works. What we are saying is that if homoeopathy actually did what they claim it does, then this would be paranormal - it is thus they who are making the paranormal claim, not us.

None of this seems to have been understood in the slightest.

Rolfe.

[Zep]

Actually, a LOT doesn't seem to have been understood in the slightest by many homeopaths.

And I note Dr MAS's continued absence from here. From which I wouldstart to form a conclusion that either he is too busy, or he's gone the way of many other adherents of woo thought who have tried to uphold their theories here - just went away and tried to pretend we didn't exist.

He's a candidate for the Karen Boesen Award for ongoing total failure to answer reasonable questions and subsequent mysterious disappearance from the forum.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
Dear members,
A beautiful view of newly built MAS hotel




Oh, for a minute I thought you'd written "A new view of beautifully built MAS hotel".

Are you sure MAS is not the Scarlet Pimpernel?

"They seek him here, they seek him there,
Those Sceptickes seek him everywhere!
Is he in Heaven? Or is he in Hell?
That demmed, elusive Dr. MAS!!"

Seems he's everywhere except where he might have to answer for his silly ideas.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
He is doing right or wrong.

That doesn't narrow things down very much.

[Ashles]

Is there anyone or anything in Pakistan that isn't called MAS?

[geni]

Originally posted by Ashles
Is there anyone or anything in Pakistan that isn't called MAS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by geni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mas

This page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-agent_system

is peculiarly apposite!

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
This page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-agent_system

is peculiarly apposite!
:D

[Homeo Man]

About MAS, you are near to answer of the mystry involved in Dr. MAS's account. (one man with many users) :D :D :D

Perfect Example.

Multi-agent system
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
In computer science, a multi-agent system (MAS) is a system composed of several agents, capable of mutual interaction. The interaction can be in the form of message passing or producing changes in their common environment (see stigmergy). The agents can be autonomous entities, such as software agents or robots. MAS can include human agents as well. Human organizations and society in general can be considered an example of a multi-agent system.

Multi-agent systems can manifest self-organization and complex behaviors even when the individual strategies of all their agents are simple.

Topics of research in MAS include:

beliefs, desires, and intentions (BDI),
cooperation and coordination,
communication,
distributed problem solving,
multi-agent learning.

[Homeo Man]

Originally posted by H3LL
Are they developing homeopathic paint?


First J Members thought that arrange of lunch for skeptics is just a rumour. Now after watching picture, they are convinced it was a fair invitation. :p

MAS is not the owner of this hotel. He is a poor homeopath as he stated in the past. He uses Horse carriage for travelling.

The name "MAS" is the family name of people living in Pakistan. When he says, Dr. MAS then we have no idea who is the user but it is confirmed that the user is a "doctor". He is running "MAS" organization for many months. A very good way to discuss at net. When you don't want to create duplicate aliases.

[flume]

Hi Hoimeo Man.

Could you help with an answer on the Avogadro's number question ? Even if you think it doesn't apply to a complicated remedy like Apis, wouldn't you agree that it applies to a simple one like natrum muriaticum or the sodium sulfate question that Badly Shaved Monkey keeps asking about?
It would be easiest if you would start with a very simple case with pure water used for dilution.
If you really think it doesn't apply, could you show us the math for a series of dilutions so we can see what your thinking is?
If we could get the simple case cleared up then we could more easily talk about the complicated ones (not that we would necessarily agree).

I am thinking it might be a simple communication problem or misunderstanding. If you could work through an example in detail maybe we could find out where the misunderstanding is.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Homeo Man

First J Members thought that arrange of lunch for skeptics is just a rumour. Now after watching picture, they are convinced it was a fair invitation. :p

MAS is not the owner of this hotel. He is a poor homeopath as he stated in the past. He uses Horse carriage for travelling.

The name "MAS" is the family name of people living in Pakistan. When he says, Dr. MAS then we have no idea who is the user but it is confirmed that the user is a "doctor". He is running "MAS" organization for many months. A very good way to discuss at net. When you don't want to create duplicate aliases.



Originally posted by Homeo Man
If you can't understand how "MAS" members are participating in the forum then why to blame? "We" all are living in different cities. "We" have different email identities but "We" also exchange passwords. :p

A warning. Only one person may use one account at this forum, if you again state or give the impression that more then one person does use your Membership here then you will be taken at your word and will be immediately banned.

To avoid any further action at this time state clearly that your account “Homeo Man� is only used by one person and that person is the person named in the registration details you provided when you applied for Membership to this Forum.

I will also send this warning via PM.

[Nucular]

Now, it's been made abundantly clear to all the homeopaths, through explanation, warning and suspension, that this board has clear rules on account usage which don't allow multiple users of the same account.

Now Homeo Man comes on here expressly stating that all the Pakistani homeopaths on this board exchange passwords and share accounts.

I just think it's so impressive that they've thought up this ruse:
They want to get banned from the JREF board, so that they don't have to apply for the prize, and so that they can portray sceptics as a closed-minded bunch who'll ban you rather than listen to you
Each individual acting up enough to warrant an individual ban would be time-consuming and unreliable
So to state several times that all are breaking one forum rule achieves that end of all being banned with the minimum outlay of trollery!
Bravo! To anyone watching from the outside, this will probably, with some window-dressing and rabble-rousing by the "injured" parties, look like a very flagrant narrow-minded, dismissive response from "The Sceptics", banning every single Pakistani homeopath from the board in one fell swoop under some obscure forum rule - indefensible!

I did think these fellows were genuine when they first came here, and actually really wanted to explain what they believed, and to discuss it with people who were not of a like mind; and I was looking forward to hearing what they had to say. It's crystal clear now, though, that not one of them had any intention of doing so.

I hope they don't get banned, just so their plan has failed and we can keep asking them about their claims; but on the other hand, I wouldn't blame Darat if he just banned all of them on the strength of that last post by Homeo Man, which is clearly very much in keeping with the way all of these people have acted. And I think it's a testament to his patience and the nature of this board that he didn't.

IMHO.

[H3LL]

"The opiate of the Mases" has a whole new meaning.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Homeo Man

First J Members thought that arrange of lunch for skeptics is just a rumour. Now after watching picture, they are convinced it was a fair invitation. :p

I didn't think it was a rumour. I thought it was a joke. Fair invitation? Hey, here's another "fair invitation". Come to lunch with me. Today. In France. In 15 minutes. You can't make it? Too bad. At least I tried.

[Gaga]

These days I'm re-reading The Lord of the Rings.
Funny how Gandalf's account of his interrogation of Gollum reminds me of this debate with Mas' Underbridge.
Admittedly I've little experience with message boards in general, but I don't think I've ever experienced this difficulty of getting things straight.
And it's not just a language problem...

[Jocce]

The most intriguing part is how MAS, kumar and the other homeopaths here do everything in their power to convince us that Hahnemann was wrong...

Hahnemann clearly says in the organon that there are no material causes to sickness. Only energy, of the dynamic version of course. He compares disease (and cures) as working like a magnet that can make iron magnetic from a distance (no material connection). He then goes on to "explain" that small pox and measles works the same since a child can "infect" another child from a distance without any matter flowing from one to the other. Only dynamic energy.

Well, guess we know a bit more about airborne germs today and that's the reason contemporary homeopaths try to find material causes.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

HOMEO MAN

HAVE YOU READ THE DR. NAEEM POST (A HIDDEN MEMBER ON THIS BOARD) IN PAKI MAILING LIST.

HE SAID, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. OK AND DISCUSS SILENTLY. OK :p

NON-SENSE

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by Donks
I didn't think it was a rumour. I thought it was a joke. Fair invitation? Hey, here's another "fair invitation". Come to lunch with me. Today. In France. In 15 minutes. You can't make it? Too bad. At least I tried.

THIS IS FAIR?

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=34

YOU ARE ALREADY AWARE OF THIS INFO.

[Darat]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
...snip...

HOMEO MAN

HAVE YOU READ THE DR. NAEEM POST (A HIDDEN MEMBER ON THIS BOARD) IN PAKI MAILING LIST.

HE SAID, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. OK AND DISCUSS SILENTLY. OK :p

NON-SENSE

...snip...

A warning. Only one person may use one account at this forum, if you again state or give the impression that more then one person does use your Membership here then you will be taken at your word and will be immediately banned.

To avoid any further action at this time state clearly that your account “Non-Sense Homeopath� is only used by one person and that person is the person named in the registration details you provided when you applied for Membership to this Forum.

I will also send this warning via PM.

[Gaga]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
HOMEO MAN

HAVE YOU READ THE DR. NAEEM POST (A HIDDEN MEMBER ON THIS BOARD) IN PAKI MAILING LIST.

HE SAID, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. OK AND DISCUSS SILENTLY. OK :p

NON-SENSE



WTF?:confused:
did you take this board for your personal notebook??

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
HAVE YOU READ THE DR. NAEEM POST (A HIDDEN MEMBER ON THIS BOARD) IN PAKI MAILING LIST.

HE SAID, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. OK AND DISCUSS SILENTLY. OK :p Non-Sense Homeopath,

Who is this Dr. Naeem you refer to? A "hidden member on this board"? What does that mean?

Although I can't find a "Dr. Naeem" in the member list, it sounds as if you're referring to someone actually orchestrating the behaviour of the homeopaths on this board, and, it seems at this time, telling them to "keep your mouth shut" and "discuss silently".

I doubt this is against the rules of the board, but if this is happening it makes it extremely frustrating for those of us who have attempted to engage you in conversation, and then noted your lack of response.

Can you clarify what you meant? Are you orchestrating your behaviour on this board via PM or something? And are you all intentionally staying silent? And who is Dr. Naeem?

Editted for speling

[Zep]

I would suggest that these posts of Non-Sense about a mythical "Dr Naeem" and the "silent board" is merely stirring to aggravate us. If they were really being silent, they wouldn't have posted it in clear on this or any other thread here. But since it was in big red letters, it was mant to be seen...by everyone.

Ignore it - it's so childish as to be not even laughable.

[Nucular]

Heh, yes, I'm inclined to agree - explaining who this Naeem chap is wouldn't have meant anything to Homeo Man as he was supposed to know already. So it was meant for us to read.

This really is doing nothing for my opinion of homeopathy.

[Ashles]

Non-Sense Homeopath seems really desperate to get banned one way or another.

He displays ever more deperate methods to avoid answering direct simple questions.

The 'get banned' method is an exciting and novel approach we have only witnessed about, ooh 67 times before.

As I think it is safe to say we are never going to get any form of scientific anwer from non-sense and his chums, then our only amusement left with them is to watch the methods they use to try to avoid answering those questions.

I guess just leaving would have too much dignity to it.
Much better to start shouting, obfuscating, distracting, using as many smilies and font colours as possible etc.

Anyone still waiting for answers to their genuine scientific questions should really start acceptimg that they aren't going to come. Ever.

I just hope a few students of Dr. MAS and NHCPakistan have read these threads and had just a bit of a think about what exactly they are paying for on their courses.
And what, exactly, they are getting for their homeopathic membership.
And what, exactly, their 'teachers' are qualified in.

[Chris Haynes]

Originally posted by Ashles
...I just hope a few students of Dr. MAS and NHCPakistan have read these threads and had just a bit of a think about what exactly they are paying for on their courses.
And what, exactly, they are getting for their homeopathic membership.
And what, exactly, their 'teachers' are qualified in.

Sometimes they are greatly disappointed... something I remember many years ago on the sci.med Usenet group (hey, I found it!):
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/6ddc6285a4c7f67b?hl=en

This is really a shame on Indian Universities that offer Homeopathy education for those who wantes to come to United States for their future studies.

If Homeopathy is not widely recognized in super power countries like United States, students should be made aware of this fact so that they do not spent their life wasting on this education, spending their parents money, and losing their most precious time of their life, in India.


Edited to add: This is the first discussion where he was learning the value of his education:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/browse_frm/thread/fe9abe192b5a002f/4afae5134aa835d2?q=&rnum=2&hl=en#4afae5134aa835d2

[Rolfe]

Thanks, HC - that's the situation I referred to in an earlier post, but I didn't know where to find the links. I love the way the writer classes Canada and Germany as "developing" countries which still give credence to homoeopathy.

Now, ARE ANY OF THE HOMOEOPATHS GOING TO EXPLAIN, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS? EVER? PRETTY PLEASE??

Rolfe.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Hydrogen Cyanide
Sometimes they are greatly disappointed... something I remember many years ago on the sci.med Usenet group (hey, I found it!):
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.med/msg/6ddc6285a4c7f67b?hl=en



Edited to add: This is the first discussion where he was learning the value of his education:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/misc.health.alternative/browse_frm/thread/fe9abe192b5a002f/4afae5134aa835d2?q=&rnum=2&hl=en#4afae5134aa835d2 Good point...

I wonder if our Pakistani friends are aware of the FACT that all of their homeopathic credentials combined would not qualify them to draw blood or empty bedpans in the U.S.

They certainly seem to have very high opinions of themselves and their "professions". I'd imagine that it would come as quite a shock to them to realize that homeopaths are positioned a few rungs below candy striper in the U.S. medical community hierarchy.

I like the part in that discussion where the person points out to the disillusioned homeopath that it would be better if he not mention his homeopathic credentials at all, as it would only work against him when seeking legitimate medical training in the U.S.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Thanks, HC - that's the situation I referred to in an earlier post, but I didn't know where to find the links. I love the way the writer classes Canada and Germany as "developing" countries which still give credence to homoeopathy.

Now, ARE ANY OF THE HOMOEOPATHS GOING TO EXPLAIN, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS? EVER? PRETTY PLEASE??

Rolfe.

Are you sure it works in 6, 12 and 18 dilution?

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Dr. Qureshi has posted his research studies and proved that allopathic medicines were also got failed in controled studies.

Visit

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Are you sure it works in 6, 12 and 18 dilution? NO.

NEVER MIND ABOUT THAT.

YOU ARE SURE THAT IT WORKS.

SO.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS.

Rolfe.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by Rolfe
NO.

NEVER MIND ABOUT THAT.

YOU ARE SURE THAT IT WORKS.



YES :D


SO.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS.



Rolfe.

FIRST EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DOES IT CANNOT WORK IN 6X, 12X ETC?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
FIRST EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DOES IT CANNOT WORK IN 6X, 12X ETC?
"First prove a negative." Hmmm. Logic isn't part of the curriculum at homeo-school, is it?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
FIRST EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DOES IT CANNOT WORK IN 6X, 12X ETC?DO YOU AGREE THAT HOMOEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK AT 30C???

Rolfe.

[wahrheit]

Originally posted by Rolfe
NO.

NEVER MIND ABOUT THAT.

YOU ARE SURE THAT IT WORKS.

SO.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS.

Rolfe.
ROLFE, I AM SURPRISED TO SEE YOU MOCK HOMEOPATHS WITH A JAMMED CAPS LOCK KEY. THOUGH I UNDERSTAND THE INTENTION BEHIND IT; MAYBE IT HELPS MAKING YOUR QUESTIONS MORE PLAIN TO THEM. WE SHOULD LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED TO GET BEHIND THE SECRET OF HOMEOPATHY.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by wahrheit
ROLFE, I AM SURPRISED TO SEE YOU MOCK HOMEOPATHS WITH A JAMMED CAPS LOCK KEY. THOUGH I UNDERSTAND THE INTENTION BEHIND IT; MAYBE IT HELPS MAKING YOUR QUESTIONS MORE PLAIN TO THEM. WE SHOULD LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED TO GET BEHIND THE SECRET OF HOMEOPATHY. I have had the revelation that they cannot read lower-case type. This is why they never answer our questions! :D Indeed, perhaps they can only read even all-caps if the typing is very large, bold, and in a bright colour. Let us see.

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

NON-SENSE HOMEOPATH. DO YOU AGREE THAT HOMOEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK AT 30C?

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW IT DOES WORK, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS.

Rolfe.

[Dr. A Sheikh]

Originally posted by Rolfe
DO YOU AGREE THAT HOMOEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK AT 30C???

Rolfe.

It will depend upon the type of working you will explained to him whether it works or not in 12x etc :D

[geni]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
It will depend upon the type of working you will explained to him whether it works or not in 12x etc :D

That does not answer the question.

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Dr. Qureshi has posted his research studies and proved that allopathic medicines were also got failed in controled studies.

Visit

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30

From the research study in question:

During my house job in homeopathic hospital, I with my few friends carried out the following experiment.

Although that was a homeopathic hospital, which was attached with, a homeopathic medical college but I decided to study control study on allopathic medicines. Seven patients were selected having UTI from out patient department. Ultrasound, x-rays and pathological tests were taken. The “URAXIN� medicine was selected for controlled study. This is the most widely used medicine in Pakistan.

This thread also provide evidence of use of URAXIN in Pakistan

http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?...20&page=2&pp=10

On four out of seven patients (uraxin group “a�) , Uraxin was tried but for rest of the patient (placebo group “b�) only placebo of the same kind of tablets were given. It was noted that group “a� got cured earlier than group “b�. Group “b� was also got perfectly all right but took six to seven days more and suffered severe pain. The group “a� got relieved on the very first day, but took five days in improving the condition.




Hmmm... excuse me if I call BS on this. I work in the medical field, and I've never heard of "Uraxin". Furthermore, I cannot find a single reputable reference to what this medication is. The only reference that I can find is from a homeopathic medicine site:

http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=2420&page=2&pp=10

where a Pakistani homeopath claims it is "a research antibiotic product used against infection of urethra". Aside from that, there are a few Vietnamese websites that seem to mention it, none of which I can decipher.

So, in short, the fact that Non-Sense Homeopath points this out as an "allopathic medicine" that failed a controlled study doesn't impress me. First of all, it's supposedly a research medicine, and secondly, it's "medication" that is limited to third-world countries, and likely no better than snake-oil.

Now... if you'd like, I could find references to various allopathic medications like Bactrim and Tequin, that HAVE been shown to adequetely treat urinary tract infections in reputable studies. I can dig those up for you... I'm sure you can't do so for homeopathic treatments....

[Mouthfire]

:D

Actually, after reading Dr. Qureshi's post again, I just realized that he stated that the people who took Uraxin (group "a") actually recovered from their urinary tract infections faster than placebo group "b".

Which means, Non-Sense Homeopath, that Uraxin didn't fail the trial. It actually worked!

:D

[SezMe]

I nominate Rolfe for the:

POSTER DISPLAYING THE MOST PATIENCE OF THE YEAR AWARD

[Psiload]

Originally posted by SezMe


I nominate Rolfe for the:

POSTER DISPLAYING THE MOST PATIENCE OF THE YEAR AWARD

Here! Here!

Awarded in perpetuity.

The Golden Job figurine displayed proudly on her mantle.

[Homeo Man]

Originally posted by Mouthfire
:D

Actually, after reading Dr. Qureshi's post again, I just realized that he stated that the people who took Uraxin (group "a") actually recovered from their urinary tract infections faster than placebo group "b".

Which means, Non-Sense Homeopath, that Uraxin didn't fail the trial. It actually worked!

:D

So you are going to confirm that all those placebo group "b" were also got cured. :D

[clarsct]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
So you are going to confirm that all those placebo group "b" were also got cured. :D

I'm guessing that pillory was a coherent poster until he saw his one million and ninth of these types of posts.

This one really made my head hurt..I think I actually dropped an IQ point....

OK Here goes....

The people in group "b" did not get "cured". The suffered severe pain and were lucky enough to survive the infection. Group "a", who took the medicine, made a recovery much faster and experienced little pain.

Does the pain your vic...erm "patients" not matter to you? Do you care how fast they're cured? Or are you just greedy enough not to care? As long as the blasted money comes in, isn't it all the same to you?

By posting such inanity, you have exposed your lack of empathy for your fellow man, which I find disgusting. I will likely not post here again.

*mutters* I apologize for the Ad Hom..but my bile could no longer be contained....

[Mojo]

Originally posted by clarsct
By posting such inanity, you have exposed your lack of empathy for your fellow man, which I find disgusting.He's also exposed his total lack of understanding of what constitutes a successful treatment.

BTW, I notice in that thread that not only has someone registered an account under the name "Mojo", but there's also a "Guest_Mojo" posting. That's not me either. As stated previously, if I register over there, it will be under our other cat's name.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Dr. A Sheikh
It will depend upon the type of working you will explained to him whether it works or not in 12x etc :D I apologise for repeating myself (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870910756#post1870910756). There are two threads (at least) about exactly the same topic, and I can't see any way to make the homoeopaths stick to one of them.

Well, if we're actually going to address this, then no, as a blanket statement, I do not believe that "it works" at 6X or 12X or any other X come to that.

Why not?

Because the whole assumption that "like cures like" is a pack of nonsense based on a misunderstanding.

Little homoeopathic history lesson.

Samuel Hahnemann was a German physician living at the end of the 18th century. He had a job translating medical texts into German. One of the books he was given to translate was the Materia Medica of William Cullen, a very famous professor at Glasgow University. In this book Cullen stated (correctly) that the bark of the cinchona tree was an effective treatment for malaria. He also speculated (incorrectly) that the reason for the efficacy was that the bark had an astringent action on the stomach.

Hahnemann thought about this, and realised (correctly) that this explanation was unlikely, because there were a number of other things with an even more astringent action on the stomach which didn't do a blind bit of good for malaria. He then decided to get some of the bark and see if he could figure it out. He took some himself, and it made him feel unwell. He believed that the symptoms he was experiencing were similar to those of malaria. He tried this several times, and indeed, the effect was reproducible.

However, what he failed to do was to find out if the effect also happened to other people. In fact it doesn't. The vast majority of people, on taking cinchona bark, will not experience what Hahnemann experienced. It appears that he suffered an idiosyncratic, probably allergic, reaction to something in the bark.

Nevertheless, Hahnemenn concluded from this observation that the reason that cinchona bark cures malaria is that it produces malarial symptoms in healthy people. Wrong on two counts. First, as I said, cinchona bark doesn't produce malarial symptoms in the vast majority of healthy people. Second, the reason cinchona bark cures malaria is that it contains a high concentration of quinine, which kills the Plasmodium protozoan which causes malaria.

"Like cures like" is an expression of a very ancient way of thinking called "sympathetic magic". It can be found running through the thinking and practice of almost all primitive peoples, and indeed it is so ingrained into the human psyche that even modern man finds himself thinking that way sometimes.

However, it has absolutely no basis in fact. Whether or not any particular substance is active against any particular disease has nothing at all to do with whatever symptoms it might cause in a healthy person.

Therefore, there is no reason at all to believe that "homoeopathy works" at any dilution at all.

However, at the very low potencies, that is under 24X and 12C, there are indeed some traces of the original mother tincture present. It would therefore be foolish to declare that it is entirely impossible that any such preparation could ever have any sort of physiological effect. Especially right down at 6X, it's possible that certain individual preparations of particularly pharmacologically active substances might have an effect. For example, if you started with a highly concentrated mother tincture, I think you'd be very unwise to take a 6X preparation of potassium cyanide.

This is nevertheless not any sort of admission that "homoeopathy works" at these dilutions. Merely an observation that sometimes, with certain preparations, something might happen. Probably not that a disease would be cured though!

However, we note that when homoeopaths practise, they usually use much higher dilutuions than this. 30C is a very common prescription, and 200C seems quite popular too.

We know that such preparations have absolutely nothing at all of the mother tincture in them. We therefore discard all these earler caveats and state categorically that these preparations cannot possibly have any effect at all (beyond whatever effect the carrier solvent might have).

It is thus interesting that these homoeopaths are continually turning away from our constant questions about the 30C preparations. This is the clear question, to which we want an answer.

DO YOU THEN AGREE THAT 30C PREPARATIONS DO NOT (AND CANNOT) WORK?

Rolfe.

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
So you are going to confirm that all those placebo group "b" were also got cured. :D

Well, no... I'm actually going to confirm that placebo group "b" spontaneously resolved. Doctors already know that certain infections will resolve by themselves (if you have an intact immune system). This is not something we don't already know....

Do you not find it significant that the group treated with placebo:
1) suffered significantly more pain
2) suffered for a longer amount of time, and
3) are at higher risk for developing complications, such as hemorraghic cystitis, bacterial sepsis and meningitis, and permanent renal damage?

Which is why we treat urinary tract infections with antibiotics, rather than letting them take their natural course.... So, really, the Uraxil did not fail the trial....

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by SezMe


I nominate Rolfe for the:

POSTER DISPLAYING THE MOST PATIENCE OF THE YEAR AWARD

ME two!

[M Sarwar]

Hi Skeptics

I have to ask few questions.

1. Do infra rays, mobile rays, radio & TV rays, solar rays and x-rays etc effect on body?

If the answer is yes, then the question is

1. To bring chemical change in the body, do we need some molecules or these rays can bring some change in the chemical system of the body?

If the answer is in "Yes", then why to pressurize homeopaths that their medicines have no molecules, that's why, these medicines cannot bring chemical change in the body?

[Donks]

Originally posted by M Sarwar
Hi Skeptics

I have to ask few questions.

1. Do infra rays, mobile rays, radio & TV rays, solar rays and x-rays etc effect on body?
Some do. You might want to look up the proper terminology if you want to know exactly which ones do.

If the answer is yes, then the question is

1. To bring chemical change in the body, do we need some molecules or these rays can bring some change in the chemical system of the body?
No. EM radiation is not made of molecules, and it can have an effect on the body.
If the answer is in "Yes",
I'll assume you meant "If the answer is 'No'," because otherwise your analogy would have failed.
then why to pressurize homeopaths that their medicines have no molecules, that's why, these medicines cannot bring chemical change in the body?
Because a 30C remedy does not emit any sort of unsual radiation not seen on the stock solvent. If your theory is that homeopathy works by interaction of photons and molecules (shades of Kumar), you're missing the photons.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by M Sarwar
1. Do infra rays, mobile rays, radio & TV rays, solar rays and x-rays etc effect on body?

If the answer is yes, then the question is

1. To bring chemical change in the body, do we need some molecules or these rays can bring some change in the chemical system of the body?

If the answer is in "Yes", then why to pressurize homeopaths that their medicines have no molecules, that's why, these medicines cannot bring chemical change in the body? I'm picking up on the last question. ".... why to pressurize homeopaths that their medicines have no molecules, that's why, these medicines cannot bring chemical change in the body?"

If you can show that homoeopathic remedies emit EM radiation in a form which can firstly affect the body and secondly affect it in such a way as to heal disease, then that would also be a possible mode of action. However, they do not. No such radiation can be detected.

To be more clear. For "high-potency" homoeopathic remedies, there is no way at all that the potentised remedy differs from the stock solvent. No molecules of the mother tincture, no other unexpected molecules of any other substance, no mysterious energies, no EM radiation different from that of the stock solvent, and no patterns or memories.

This is why it does not work. And funnily enough, whenever any well-designed controlled trial is done, gosh, look, it doesn't work.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by M Sarwar
Hi Skeptics

I have to ask few questions.

1. Do infra rays, mobile rays, radio & TV rays, solar rays and x-rays etc effect on body?

Some do, some don't. Depends much on intensity

If the answer is yes, then the question is

1. To bring chemical change in the body, do we need some molecules or these rays can bring some change in the chemical system of the body?

These ray can make whatever changes they do without molecules.

If the answer is in "Yes", then why to pressurize homeopaths that their medicines have no molecules, that's why, these medicines cannot bring chemical change in the body?

Because, ..drum roll:

Homeopathic medicines do not emit any kind of rays

:rolleyes:

We seem to be back to square one.

Hans

[wahrheit]

Quote from a "new" homeopathic web-site (http://www.hhomeopharma.com/) (click on "update"), it's design and origin are the same like that of the other sites we recently visited.
Vet Dr. Hafiz Mati met with Chief Minister of Punjab and briefed him about the good status of homeopathy. He informed the CM that there is no cure in allopathy against viral diseases but homeopathy has an excellent reputation against such diseases. [...] and the efficacy has been proved and tested.
I wonder what prosecution authorities think of such statements.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by M Sarwar
1. Do infra rays, mobile rays, radio & TV rays, solar rays and x-rays etc effect on body?

If the answer is yes, then the question is

1. To bring chemical change in the body, do we need some molecules or these rays can bring some change in the chemical system of the body?

If the answer is in "Yes", then why to pressurize homeopaths that their medicines have no molecules, that's why, these medicines cannot bring chemical change in the body? As Hans has mentioned, the effects can be dependent upon intensity. They are also dependent on wavelength. The energy carried by a photon depends on its wavelength; the shorter the wavelength, the higher the energy. Sufficiently energetic photons can certainly effect the body, but the effects tend not to be beneficial to health (to say the least). If homeopathic remedies were emitting radiation of the sort of wavelength capable of having an effect on the body, they would be pretty hazardous to have around, and homeopaths would have a pretty low life expectancy.

Fortunately for homeopaths (although maybe not for their patients), homeopathic remedies do not emit electromagnetic radiation in any way that is different from their stock solvent.

If you feel that homeopathic remedies work by emitting some sort of radiation, perhaps you could demonstrate this by devising an experiment to detect this radiation. If you can do this, you could win a million dollars.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Rolfe-Quote
If you can show that homoeopathic remedies emit EM radiation in a form which can firstly affect the body and secondly affect it in such a way as to heal disease, then that would also be a possible mode of action. However, they do not. No such radiation can be detected.

No this not true, in homeopathy there are few medicines which have raditations in them like x-rays 30 and solo 30 etc. When x-ray was prepared its dilution was exposed to x-rays for considerable time.

M sarwar, please ask this question to skeptics

If you expose a dilution to x-rays for hours and if you drink that dilution in different intervals, does that x-ray dilution effect the body?

[Zep]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Rolfe-Quote


No this not true, in homeopathy there are few medicines which have raditations in them like x-rays 30 and solo 30 etc. When x-ray was prepared its dilution was exposed to x-rays for considerable time.

M sarwar, please ask this question to skeptics

If you expose a dilution to x-rays for hours and if you drink that dilution in different intervals, does that x-ray dilution effect the body? Non-Sense H, why don't you just ask the question straight out yourself?

Oh, you already did...



Here's questions for you, N-S H:

In what way do X-rays affect plain water?
Are any of these effects permanent? Long-lasting?
Does water "hold" X-rays? If so, how?
What form do X-rays take when they are diluted?

[Jeff Corey]

How about n rays, Nancy?

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

M Sarwar, Two discussion boards are running side by side. Few members have registeration at both forums. Although we cannot see "WHO IS WHO?" or a member of having same name is exactly the same the person at other forum just like we cannot say, this non-sense homeopath (I, myself) member is the same at other forum with the same name non-sense but one of the {MOJO} member at

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30

admitted that homeopathic potency does work in 6x and asked then what?

[Zep]

Ignoring the questions, I see... Typical.

Non-Sense, we were asking about 30X dilutions being the same as placebo, not 6X dilutions.

AND we were also asking you to show that 6X dilutions do what you say they do under Hanhemann's "like cures like" laws.

Those are two different questions - DO YOU UNDERSTAND? If not, please go back and read Rolfe's and everyone else's excellent explanations.

So do you want to answer either of these questions sensibly?

[Homeo Man]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath

M Sarwar, Two discussion boards are running side by side. Few members have registeration at both forums. Although we cannot see "WHO IS WHO?" or a member of having same name is exactly the same the person at other forum just like we cannot say, this non-sense homeopath (I, myself) member is the same at other forum with the same name non-sense but one of the {MOJO} member at

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30

admitted that homeopathic potency does work in 6x and asked then what?





Mojo, are You the person who appeared as guest at www.nchpakistan.com discussion forum?

[flume]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
Mojo, are You the person who appeared as guest at www.nchpakistan.com discussion forum? He already posted that he was not.

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
Mojo, are You the person who appeared as guest at www.nchpakistan.com discussion forum? As flume has already pointed out, I have already posted in this thread that that was not me. I'm going to be charitable here, and assume that you and Non-Sense homeopath were simply too stupid to understand the previous post, rather than dishonest. Any future repetition will reveal you as a liar.

Edited to add: For the record, it is my opinion (based on the available evidence) that homeopathy is a complete sham, and that anyone pretending otherwise is a fraud or a fool.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
in homeopathy there are few medicines which have raditations in them like x-rays 30 and solo 30 etc. When x-ray was prepared its dilution was exposed to x-rays for considerable time.Objects which are exposed to X-rays do not normally start emitting X-rays (or other EM radiation) themselves. Do you have proof that these homoeopathic remedies emit X-rays?

Do you therefore agree that all the homoeopathic remedies which are not exposed to X-rays cannot and do not work?

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
No this not true, in homeopathy there are few medicines which have raditations in them like x-rays 30 and solo 30 etc. When x-ray was prepared its dilution was exposed to x-rays for considerable time.

No, they don't have X-rays in them. They have, perhaps have X-rays sent through them, but they are not IN them.

M sarwar, please ask this question to skeptics

Why should he, since you alreadydid? :rolleyes:

If you expose a dilution to x-rays for hours and if you drink that dilution in different intervals, does that x-ray dilution effect the body?

No. [tm]

Hans

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath

M Sarwar, Two discussion boards are running side by side. Few members have registeration at both forums. Although we cannot see "WHO IS WHO?" or a member of having same name is exactly the same the person at other forum just like we cannot say, this non-sense homeopath (I, myself) member is the same at other forum with the same name non-sense but one of the {MOJO} member at

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30

admitted that homeopathic potency does work in 6x and asked then what?




Admitted?

The thing about lying, my naughty little homeopath, is that you should not rely on facts that are so easily checked.

Gaga said;

"6x means one part in a million (right?) I'm not even sure that that's homeopathic.
Anyway it just means that there's a discrete quantity of the original substance in the carrier, if that means that it will cure you, well that's largely debatable, since no one here cared to explain so far the logic of "like cures like""

and Hans said;

"From the skeptical viewpoint tree things in homeopathy must be challenged:

1) The existence of a "Vital Force" that regulates health

2) The truth of "Like Cures Like"

3) The physiological effect of high-potency remedies.

Obviously, for 6X (1ppm) dilutions, only #1 and #2 apply. If the mother tincture is one that can be expected to have a physiological effect in 1ppm concentration, we have no reason to say that this effect is not there, just becaue it is used homeopathically. That is not the same as saying that it "works", however. By the term "work" I must assume that you mean is able to cure disease, which is entirely another thing.

Since only few of the mother tinctures used in homeopathy can be expected to have any significant effect in small doses in 1ppm concentration, and even less can be expected to cure diseases, the answer to your question must be:

Not likely, and even less likely in a homeopathic fashion (like cures like).

OK, maybe you don't understand the answer (apaprantly you did not understand it the other times it was explained), but there it is, so kindly stop saying it was bypassed."


Now you pop up again and say "
admitted that homeopathic potency does work in 6x and asked then what?"

Did you not understand the answers you have been given multiple times or do you just lie and hope no one notices? Do you feel you are a good representative of the homeopathic community with your dishonest behaviour?

[Rolfe]

I think they just lie. They don't even need any basis for a false statement most of the time, they just say what they want to say and think if they repeat it often enough, people will believe them.

But then they have lots of practice in that, don't they, because that's what all of homoeoapthy is about. Telling the same lies again and again until some people start to believe them.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Non-Sense,

I quite forgot my etiquette for a moment.

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Did you not understand the answers you have been given multiple times or do you just lie and hope no one notices? Do you feel you are a good representative of the homeopathic community with your dishonest behaviour?

There. Is that better?

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

"Dishonest" What does this mean? is this the name of something?

Dr. MAS is busy in his seminar and you are doing back bitting in his abscence. You are also spreading rumours about him. I think "dishonest" is the name of your cat?




Invitation – 4th National Homoeopathic Seminar 2005




Dear Homeopaths



Islamic Homoeopathic Medical Association (IHMA) is the most active and well-organized association of Pakistan. The association’s Gujrat Wing is arranging 4th National Homeopathic Educational Seminar on 29th May 2005 at 0900 a.m in District Council Hall, Gujrat, Pakistan, in which approximately four to five hundred professional homoeopaths from all around the country are expected to attend. Hopefully, this seminar would also be a successful seminar like others held in the past. ( http://www.pbase.com/aam )



As usual the entry in the seminar is free. No prior Registration is necessary. This is one-day seminar in which the high officials of the government will also likely to participate. Pakistan fame homeopathic doctors will present their articles on homeopathic subject “Chronic Diseases and Homeopathy�. This would be a good opportunity for all of us to share views with fellow homeopaths. Don’t miss this opportunity to learn from high intellectual doctors.



At the end of the seminar famous traditional Pakistani food in the lunch will be served which is our long lasting and established hospitality. The participants will also be awarded an excellent participation certificate.



For our foreign delegates only, our club (WHCC) and Association (IHMA) are offering a special FREE package for two days stay in Pakistan. This includes traveling from airport to hotel near to seminar hall, two days of food serving and then return back to airport after the end of seminar. In this regard, prior program coordination is must. For Pakistani's doctors, they will come at their own arrangement.



I cordially invite you to grace the occasion. All Pakistani’s and foreign homeopaths are most welcome.



Yours truly,



Dr. MAS

Seminar Chief Organizer

Mobile: 0092-300-6263403

www.drmas.tk

Email: drmasvoice@yahoo.com

Chief Executive

--------------------

World Homeopathic

Computer Club (WHCC)



Postal Address:

---------------------

Iqbal Poly Homeopathic Clinic

Behind Committee Office

Main Market, Kharian

Pakistan

The links can be found at

http://www.homeoweb.net
www.nchpakistan.com discussion board chit chat section (http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=34)
http://www.homeopathy.forumsplace.com
Dr. Syed Furqan Discussion Board (http://www.homeocurecenter.com/index.php?showtopic=54)

[Jeff Corey]

No, Satan is the name of one cat. Sqeakey and Rocket are the others.
I was going to name them after homeopaths, but thought better of it.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

shooooooo

You can't stop spreading of homeopathy...... like this..... shooooo

[Zep]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Dr. MAS is busy in his seminar and you are doing back bitting in his abscence. You are also spreading rumours about him. Now there's a Kumar term come back into the conversation but from another source...

So have we discovered the identity of this sock now, perhaps? Hmmm... Is his sig a lie?

[Donks]

Originally posted by Zep
Now there's a Kumar term come back into the conversation but from another source...

So have we discovered the identity of this sock now, perhaps? Hmmm... Is his sig a lie?
Non-Sense Homeopath has a lot of Kumarish traits. "Non-Sense" itself is a Kumarism.

[Perpetual Notion]

Hey, I want to point out that I totally called it on another thread!! I predicted that it could be Kumar with an attitude. It makes sense. Years of pent up anger at everyone for calling him an idiot. Complete inability to post even one stinkin' scientific fact. Fawning adoration of MAS. I'm not saying it's true, but if I'm right, I get one free homeopathic certificate with dancing test tubes on it. ;)

I noticed HomeoMan used "this and that" tonight too!

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
"Dishonest" What does this mean? is this the name of something?

Dr. MAS is busy in his seminar and you are doing back bitting in his abscence. You are also spreading rumours about him. I think "dishonest" is the name of your cat?

Hey, we were calling him dishonest to his face when he was here and when he comes back if he acts the same way, I'm sure he'll hear it again.

[QUOTE]shooooooo

You can't stop spreading of homeopathy...... like this..... shooooo[QUOTE]

Wow, you convinced me. You totally won this debate. :p

[Zep]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Hey, I want to point out that I totally called it on another thread!! I predicted that it could be Kumar with an attitude. It makes sense. Years of pent up anger at everyone for calling him an idiot. Complete inability to post even one stinkin' scientific fact. Fawning adoration of MAS. I'm not saying it's true, but if I'm right, I get one free homeopathic certificate with dancing test tubes on it. ;)

I noticed HomeoMan used "this and that" tonight too! Kudos! :clap:

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
"Dishonest" What does this mean? is this the name of something?

Dr. MAS is busy in his seminar and you are doing back bitting in his abscence. You are also spreading rumours about him. I think "dishonest" is the name of your cat? Now why would you regard accusations that were clearly aimed at you (and at Homeo Man) as an attack on Dr. MAS? Are you making some sort of admission about the identity of these three posters here?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Dr. Qureshi has posted his research studies and proved that allopathic medicines were also got failed in controled studies.

Visit

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30 Are you serious? That study clearly showed that the verum group had benefits from the medicine. Did Dr. Qureshi interpret it otherwise?

Now, apart from this apparant total lack of understanding of how to evaluate test results, you are on a very dangerous track, here:

Your reasoning can only build on the fact that all patients from both groups eventually recovered (because it was a disease that usually resolves without intervention).

If we are to use this logic on homeopathy, then EVERY case story I have ever seen fails to show that homeopathy works, since the patients would eventually have recovered anyway.

Are you SURE you wanna go that way ;)?

Hans

[Mojo]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Are you serious? That study clearly showed that the verum group had benefits from the medicine. Did Dr. Qureshi interpret it otherwise?

Now, apart from this apparant total lack of understanding of how to evaluate test results, you are on a very dangerous track, here:

Your reasoning can only build on the fact that all patients from both groups eventually recovered (because it was a disease that usually resolves without intervention).

If we are to use this logic on homeopathy, then EVERY case story I have ever seen fails to show that homeopathy works, since the patients would eventually have recovered anyway.

Are you SURE you wanna go that way ;)?

Hans In the course of the discussion of that post, Homeo Man popped up and said:So you are going to confirm that all those placebo group "b" were also got cured.Actually, that's probably a pretty good definition of a "successful" homeopathic treatment: the patients were given no treatment and got better eventually... ;)

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Are you serious? That study clearly showed that the verum group had benefits from the medicine. Did Dr. Qureshi interpret it otherwise?

Hans

Hans,

Dr. Qureshi played a game with you. The meeting which was held this time in jhelum city, he was also present. He belongs to Jhelum. It was instructed by Dr. MAS to all of us, how we have to act our play for next episode at forum in his abscence.

A complete plan was discussed and Qureshi posted his TRUE research. I have no doubt about that ....

Only TRAPPING part was, group "b" which were on placibo also got cured but took few days more.

If you accept the research as you all did, then do you also agree that placebo group also got cured?

If I say, those who were on allopathic drugs group "a" were not got cured with allopathic drugs but actually they were also got cured with their own body immune or resistance power and allopathic drugs did nothing then would you agree with me?

That part of drama is the crucial scence of our discussion. And we are near to end of this discussion. :p

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Hans,

Dr. Qureshi played a game with you. The meeting which was held this time in jhelum city, he was also present. He belongs to Jhelum. It was instructed by Dr. MAS to all of us, how we have to act our play for next episode at forum in his abscence.

A complete plan was discussed and Qureshi posted his TRUE research. I have no doubt about that ....

Only TRAPPING part was, group "b" which were on placibo also got cured but took few days more.

If you accept the research as you all did, then do you also agree that placebo group also got cured?

If I say, those who were on allopathic drugs group "a" were not got cured with allopathic drugs but actually they were also got cured with their own body immune or resistance power and allopathic drugs did nothing then would you agree with me?

That part of drama is the crucial scence of our discussion. And we are near to end of this discussion. :p

:rolleyes:

You should re-read my post... you obviously didn't understand a word of it.

[Mouthfire]

I'll reiterate this again, in case you missed it:
Originally posted by Mouthfire

Do you not find it significant that the group treated with placebo:
1) suffered significantly more pain
2) suffered for a longer amount of time, and
3) are at higher risk for developing complications, such as hemorraghic cystitis, bacterial sepsis and meningitis, and permanent renal damage?

Or do you think it's acceptable that the placebo group suffered a more severe infection, and are at a very high risk of permanently damaging their kidneys?

:rolleyes:

Your limited understanding of basic medicine is quite appalling, considering that you're "treating" these diseases.

[Homeo Man]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mouthfire

Do you not find it significant that the group treated with placebo:
1) suffered significantly more pain
2) suffered for a longer amount of time, and
3) are at higher risk for developing complications, such as hemorraghic cystitis, bacterial sepsis and meningitis, and permanent renal damage?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or do you think it's acceptable that the placebo group suffered a more severe infection, and are at a very high risk of permanently damaging their kidneys?

Your limited understanding of basic medicine is quite appalling, considering that you're "treating" these diseases.



Originally posted by Mouthfire

Do you not find it significant that the group treated with placebo:
1) suffered significantly more pain
2) suffered for a longer amount of time, and
3) are at higher risk for developing complications, such as hemorraghic cystitis, bacterial sepsis and meningitis, and permanent renal damage?



1] No, the group "a" had hard susceptibility to drugs. They had hard tolerance. They bear the pain and group "b" did not... Each person is individual and each individual has different susceptibility of bearing the pain.

2] No, group “b� was recovered in routine. They had normal susceptibility. They had normal immune system. Their resistance power were also normal. They suffered normal symptoms.

3] higher risk can be applied on both groups. Group “a� were developed so many contraindications, which were also intimated by drug manufacturing pharmacy. But group “b� were not developed any contraindications.


.


Any further question?

[Homeo Man]

Hello N/S homeopath

You are so sensible. We have provided all answers of their questions but again they are calling us stupid. How stupid they are. :D
dfsd

[Zep]

Yes, one question to start with, KUMAR.

Do you happen to have even the faintest idea what a "control group" means in a scientific study?

[Gaga]

What a waste of electrons. Next time I hear someone say that an easy access for everybody to communication technologies is a good thing, I'll produce this couple of posts to demonstrate the contrary.
Apparently they don't even understand what "placebo" means.
what a bunch of [rule 8]

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
Originally posted by Mouthfire

Do you not find it significant that the group treated with placebo:
1) suffered significantly more pain
2) suffered for a longer amount of time, and
3) are at higher risk for developing complications, such as hemorraghic cystitis, bacterial sepsis and meningitis, and permanent renal damage?



1] No, the group "a" had hard susceptibility to drugs. They had hard tolerance. They bear the pain and group "b" did not... Each person is individual and each individual has different susceptibility of bearing the pain.

2] No, group “b� was recovered in routine. They had normal susceptibility. They had normal immune system. Their resistance power were also normal. They suffered normal symptoms.So now you are claiming that the differences between the progress of the condition in the two groups was because of differences between the groups other than in the treatment they were given.

The whole point of a controlled test is that there should not be any difference between the groups, other than in the treatment being tested. If you are saying that there were major differences between them, all it demonstrates is that neither you, Non-Sense Homeopath nor Dr. Qureshi have any idea about how to conduct a controlled trial, or even why controlled trials are conducted.

Your ignorance and incompetence is quite breathtaking.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Hans,

Dr. Qureshi played a game with you. The meeting which was held this time in jhelum city, he was also present. He belongs to Jhelum. It was instructed by Dr. MAS to all of us, how we have to act our play for next episode at forum in his abscence.

*Yawn* Edited to add: Really? He instructed you to act like total idiots? OK, it must be so he can look smart in comparison.

A complete plan was discussed and Qureshi posted his TRUE research. I have no doubt about that ....

Only TRAPPING part was, group "b" which were on placibo also got cured but took few days more.

Yes, I noticed. This is usual with a disease which is neither fatal, nor cronic. Fortunately, most diseases resolve with time.

If you accept the research as you all did, then do you also agree that placebo group also got cured?

No, they did not "get cured", they recovered.

If I say, those who were on allopathic drugs group "a" were not got cured with allopathic drugs but actually they were also got cured with their own body immune or resistance power and allopathic drugs did nothing then would you agree with me?

No, they recovered faster with less discomfort, so the drug had an effect. But if you ask me if they would have recovered without the drug, the reply is yes.

That part of drama is the crucial scence of our discussion. And we are near to end of this discussion. :p

We certainly are. For two reasons:

1) I cannot imagine you can demonstrate much more ignorance (though you keep surprising me).

2) You are heading back on my ignore list. Fast.

Hans

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Non-Sense Homeopath
Dr. Qureshi played a game with you. The meeting which was held this time in jhelum city, he was also present. He belongs to Jhelum. It was instructed by Dr. MAS to all of us, how we have to act our play for next episode at forum in his abscence.Wait... so the cops knew Internal Affairs were setting them up?

I'm sorry, when I get bored I make up my own play.

[/homer]

[Mouthfire]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
Originally posted by Mouthfire

Do you not find it significant that the group treated with placebo:
1) suffered significantly more pain
2) suffered for a longer amount of time, and
3) are at higher risk for developing complications, such as hemorraghic cystitis, bacterial sepsis and meningitis, and permanent renal damage?



1] No, the group "a" had hard susceptibility to drugs. They had hard tolerance. They bear the pain and group "b" did not... Each person is individual and each individual has different susceptibility of bearing the pain.

2] No, group “b� was recovered in routine. They had normal susceptibility. They had normal immune system. Their resistance power were also normal. They suffered normal symptoms.

3] higher risk can be applied on both groups. Group “a� were developed so many contraindications, which were also intimated by drug manufacturing pharmacy. But group “b� were not developed any contraindications.


.


Any further question?

For Homeo-man, Qureshi, and all: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0122107519/qid=1117036490/sr=1-19/ref=sr_1_19/102-4361449-0521727?v=glance&s=books



No further comment....

[Mouthfire]

Actually, this one might be appropriate, too: Research Protocols for Elementary School Children (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00099JQ48/qid=1117038059/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/102-4361449-0521727?v=glance&s=books)

[Psiload]

Originally posted by Mouthfire
For Homeo-man, Qureshi, and all: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0122107519/qid=1117036490/sr=1-19/ref=sr_1_19/102-4361449-0521727?v=glance&s=books



No further comment.... Here's a more appropriate reference:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1592571018/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-9217888-4092153#reader-link

[Homeo Man]

Dr. MAS is an excellent designer and composer. His special field of interest is caligraphy and oil painting. He also works in water coloring. He can make excellent face figures with lead pencils.

Dr. Syed (A very good intellectual and intelligent member of randi forum) has opened his own web site. Dr. MAS invitation card is displayed here.


Front View
http://img274.echo.cx/img274/9718/invitation18qn.jpg
Back View
http://img274.echo.cx/img274/3623/invitation22qm.jpg

[Homeo Man]

This is syed web site

http://www.homeocurecenter.com/index.php?showtopic=54

[Darat]

Does anyone know if UKAS accredits laboratories outside of the UK and if so how to check on a claimed accreditation?

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
Dr. MAS is an excellent designer and composer.Front View
http://img274.echo.cx/img274/9718/invitation18qn.jpg
Back View
http://img274.echo.cx/img274/3623/invitation22qm.jpg Well, at least he's restrained himself a little on the coloured fonts this time.

And I love the "Anxiously Awaiting For:" bit. I can just imagine that entire conference looking round excitedly whenever someone opens the door...

[Zep]

I also note that the whole seminar, including the opening recitation from the Holy Quran and six speakers, is all over before lunch in one day. Either they are VERY short speeches, or lunch comes VERY late in Gujrat.

Or maybe they all have absolutely nothing worth saying anyway...???

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Zep
Either they are VERY short speeches, or lunch comes VERY late in Gujrat.The speeches have been written homeopathically. None of them contain any actual words.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Mojo
The speeches have been written homeopathically. None of them contain any actual words. Then thank goodness the Qu'ran says this:

SAQ 2:42 - Confound not truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the truth.

SAQ 3:66 - Lo! ye are those who argue about that whereof ye have some knowledge: Why then argue ye concerning that whereof ye have no knowledge? Allah knoweth. Ye know not.

SAQ 17:36 - (O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked.

SAQ 53:28 - And they have no knowledge thereof. They follow but a guess, and lo! a guess can never take the place of the truth.

[Nucular]

The Qu'ran (http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=941648) also mentions...The Deceivers in Measuring
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[83.1] Woe to the defrauders,
[83.2] Who, when they take the measure (of their dues) from men take it fully,
[83.3] But when they measure out to others or weigh out for them, they are deficient.

[Psiload]

Just when you think these clowns couldn't possibly stoop any lower, they go and walk upright under a snake's belly.

Pathetic. :nope:

Now I understand the phrase, "Lower than whale *****"

[Mouthfire]

Anyone notice that the only purpose that Homeoman and No-Sense Homeo seem to serve is to post MAS propaganda (ie pictures of a silly-looking hotel and a conference for homeo quacks)?

Not that anyone is really impressed, though.... I just find it interesting that MAS would go through the trouble of creating multiple accounts for this purpose....

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Zep
I also note that the whole seminar, including the opening recitation from the Holy Quran and six speakers, is all over before lunch in one day. Either they are VERY short speeches, or lunch comes VERY late in Gujrat.

Or maybe they all have absolutely nothing worth saying anyway...???

That's it?!! Half a day? Well I can see why he hasn't been able to post with all the labor he's been needing to put into a four hour day. Wow, that Mas sure is a big shot to command such an audience. I'm off to book my ticket right now!

And for the love of Ed, can they please produce a program that doesn't make my eyes vibrate when I look at it? What is it with these people and the Krazy Kolors? I've yet to go to a professional conference and be presented with a day-glo program.

It just gets sadder and sadder.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Zep
I also note that the whole seminar, including the opening recitation from the Holy Quran and six speakers, is all over before lunch in one day. Either they are VERY short speeches, or lunch comes VERY late in Gujrat.

Nope. The first card shows that they fnish at 1pm after a whole 4 hours.

Even when they are being grandiose they are pathetic.

[wahrheit]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
Dr. MAS is an excellent designer and composer.
He is as much a designer and "composer" as he is a doctor.

[Perpetual Notion]

One of the speakers, Farzana Nazir, seems to know that there are a lot of problems with the "medicine" these guys are handing out. (http://nation.com.pk/daily/jan-2005/8/localnews2.php)

...he asked the Health Minister about the regulation of herbal and homeopathic medicine as advertised by various hakeems and homeopathic doctors.
The minister’s answer, written as well as verbal, created confusion and led to a prolonged discussion on the point.

In the first part of the answer, the House was informed that under Section (24) of the Drugs Act 1976 no advertisement of any medicine or disease could be published without prior permission of the Federal Ministry of Health. Interestingly, the third part of the written answer says since such medicines do not come under the ambit of the Drug Act 1976, there is no restriction on their manufacturing or sale. The minister took the same stance and argued that non-traditional medicines like ginseng could not be checked anywhere.

PML-N Parliamentary Secretary Rana Sanaullah, Rana Aftab and Dr Nadia Aziz pointed out that anything could be sold under the guise of herbal medicine. When the minister said the department did take some samples and sent the cases to the Drug Court, he had no clue what happened to those cases filed in 2001 and 2002. Rana Sanaullah said contrary to the government’s claim of working on a draft to bring new legislation on the issue, nothing was achieved in the last two years.

However, Dr Tahir said the matter was discussed about four months back and the law would soon be formulated.
Dr Farzana Nazeer commented that the government did not have a magic wand to attain the desired results overnight.

I wonder if she'll be bringing that up at the, uh, conference-type-thingy.

[flume]

So when are we going to hear about the seminar?
(I tried the live webcam link on the NCH Pakistan site, but it wasn't in operation.)

[flume]

(double post)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=34&st=0&#entry399

Doubtless he'll be here shortly. Shame we all missed out on the wall clock freebies.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=34&st=0&#entry399

Doubtless he'll be here shortly. Shame we all missed out on the wall clock freebies.

Yeah, but on the other hand, we avoided the Kool-Aid prepared for those of us seated at the skeptics table.

[Homeo Man]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Yeah, but on the other hand, we avoided the Kool-Aid prepared for those of us seated at the skeptics table.






Yesterday, I attended the seminar and a report with pictures are available at

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=34

[Jeff Corey]

That link is just about as efffective as homeopathy.

[Zep]

Umm, the pictures show (a) some people sitting at a table on a stage, and (b) some children receiving a certificate. Is this all that happened? Were they the only ones there? For all we know, this may have been a pre-school graduation day...

[Homeo Man]

Originally posted by Zep
Umm, the pictures show (a) some people sitting at a table on a stage, and (b) some children receiving a certificate. Is this all that happened? Were they the only ones there? For all we know, this may have been a pre-school graduation day...

I am among those who attended the seminar. I have no pictures to show you. Sorry.

This is the responsibility of seminar Chief Organizer and members of the NCH to show you pictures. Video cassettes are also available with them.



http://img166.echo.cx/img166/1169/stageguest4kj.jpg
Stage Guest of Scientific Session

(From Left) Dr. M Ikram(MBBS, FRCS) the famous surgeon, Dr. Azhar (President IHMA, Grt), Mian Imran Masood (Educational Minister, Pb), Prof.Dr. Jafar Imam (Chair Person Scientific Session), Dr. Nasir Ahmed Ch. (President <NCH> National Council for Homeopathy Government of Pakistan) and Dr. MAS (Chief Organizer of the Seminar and Stage Secretary)

http://img179.echo.cx/img179/3985/kashi7po.jpg

Childrens were presented appreciation certificate for pasting stickers, preparing files and for hanging banners. They prepared the hall before the seminar. Dr. Nasir is presenting certificate. Dr. MAS is also in the picture as stage secretary.

Pics taken from
http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=34




The above pictures are posted by lahore based coordinator/organizer on personal base. These pics may not be taken as official released pics.

[Homeo Man]

I am going to send mail to seminar coordinators and officials to paste official pics. please

[flume]

The children are fine-looking. I am glad you had a large turnout. I imagine the lunch was excellent.

I am curious about whether there was actually any discussion about the JREF or about your prize.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Homeo Man
I am among those who attended the seminar. I have no pictures to show you. Sorry.

This is the responsibility of seminar Chief Organizer and members of the NCH to show you pictures. Video cassettes are also available with them.




The above pictures are posted by lahore based coordinator/organizer on personal base. These pics may not be taken as official released pics.

The last professional scientific meeting I attended for lasted 4 days of 7-9 hours per day with between 8 and 10 strands running in parallel. The total volume is 70-80 times the quantity of material offered by your morning meeting. The abstracts constitute a book over 600 pages long. I would imagine the proceedings of your meeting will make fairly light reading. When can we see them instead of these lovely photos?

Perhaps you could give us a summary of the news from the cuttikng edge of homeopathic science.

[Zep]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Perhaps you could give us a summary of the news from the cuttikng edge of homeopathic science. http://warrior.xenu.ca/upstat19761231.jpg