Attention ALL Skeptics: I need your advice on this guy

[tommyz]

I had just received a sales letter in the mail today advertising Marc Salem's "PSP - The Art of Para-sensory Persuasion," which from the typical smooth-talker salesman tone and vocabulary, appears to me like a complete bunch of woo-woo nonsense.

I usually throw this kind of junk mail in the trash immediately, but I just ran a quick Google search on this guy, also looking into www.snopes.comwww.snopes.com and www.truthorfiction.com (http://www.truthorfiction.com) and honestly...I couldn't find any really bad news about him at all. In fact, he even holds advanced degrees (PhD's) from the University of Pennsylvania and New York University, and has taught at several major universities for over 2 decades on the subjects of psychology. He's also an international lecturer and broadway stage performer who has his own "Mind Games" act. Here's a copy and paste from his website:

"With his Mind Games, Marc Salem encourages you to become more open to your mind's potential and to what we're still learning about our perceptions...Nothing Mare Salem does is supernatural, and this guide was written only to challenge your mind, not to make it up for you. Have an open mind, but an active one: use sharp judgment when introduced to new ideas. Or, as Salem says, "Enjoy your mind and feed it often." This guide, and Mind Games, will offer your mind a hearty meal!"

And here are some weblinks I've found:

http://www.marcsalem.com/salem.html

http://www.talkinbroadway.com/world/Mindgames.html

Still, I remain steadfast in my skepticism. This so called "book" that he's selling through the mail is $19.95 (plus $1.95 shipping and hadling) that comes with a money back guarantee.

Big deal. I just called my local Barnes and Noble to see if there were any books that this guy had previously published (and where I could get more or less the SAME information for MUCH LESS) yet they couldn't come up with anything.

This immediately raises several red flags for me. First off, since he probably did a mass mailing of this sales letter (at least a 1,000 to couple of thousands), and with your typical 2% response rate (if lucky), at $19.95 per book, with the cost of postage, evelopes, multi-colored two page letter and 3 different inserts for "free gifts if you act NOW!" I don't know how this guy could even possibly break even on his return. I would surmise that the book he would send me would be nothing more but a 20 page pamphlet filled with very vague and dry ideas that do nothing more but advertise the REAL meat of his "product:" An enrollment to a 3 day seminar or to a specialized website to learn the REAL techniques, and not just some fluffy jiberish...for some outrageous price like $495 or something.

Am I being too close minded and cynical about this offer? Or is selling a book through mail order actually cheaper that going through the traditional channels of obtaining an agent and going through a publisher? If that's the case, then why is the local Barnes and Noble by my house doing so well?

I am really interested in what this guy has to say but absolutely refuse being taken for a ride. So before I flush my $20 down the toilet, please kindly share any thoughts and opinions that you may have on this manner, and if you could direct me to any particular websites or books that either debunk or credit him (or expose his secrets), I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you fellow skeptics! I look forward to your replies! :)


-Tommyz

[dharlow]

I'm wary of passing judgement on a book I haven't read, but several other mentalists, which is what Salem is, have published books which I presume are similar (Craig Karges is one, and I believe Kreskin may have done one as well).

Salem is a mentalist, and from what I hear a very good one, but his book will not contain any of the effects he does in his shows. It will likely contain some references to NLP, and also some potentially useful memorization techniques. If it is following along the lines of other mentalists, it will essentially be a pop-psychology book of doubtful applicability to anything in the real world.

I won't advise you to buy or not buy, but if you want a preview of what this book likely bears comparison to, you can check out this link:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1558746765/qid=1116013862/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-2171148-0576736?v=glance&s=books

[Sherman Bay]

Originally posted by tommyz
Still, I remain steadfast in my skepticism...Keep on remaining steadfast. Marc Salem is a mentalist, and a good one, it appears. He performs magic tricks of the same sort as Randi does. Perhaps you can learn to perform "mindreading" tricks from him or his books, but do you expect more than that?

Ian Rowland (http://www.ianrowland.com) has some good books on mental tricks without the hype & BS. So does the library.

[The Odd Emperor]

Originally posted by tommyz
I had just received a sales letter in the mail today advertising Marc Salem's "PSP - The Art of Para-sensory Persuasion," which from the typical smooth-talker salesman tone and vocabulary, appears to me like a complete bunch of woo-woo nonsense.

I usually throw this kind of junk mail in the trash immediately, but I just ran a quick Google search on this guy, also looking into www.snopes.comwww.snopes.com and www.truthorfiction.com (http://www.truthorfiction.com) and honestly...I couldn't find any really bad news about him at all. In fact, he even holds advanced degrees (PhD's) from the University of Pennsylvania and New York University, and has taught at several major universities for over 2 decades on the subjects of psychology. He's also an international lecturer and broadway stage performer who has his own "Mind Games" act. Here's a copy and paste from his website:

"With his Mind Games, Marc Salem encourages you to become more open to your mind's potential and to what we're still learning about our perceptions...Nothing Mare Salem does is supernatural, and this guide was written only to challenge your mind, not to make it up for you. Have an open mind, but an active one: use sharp judgment when introduced to new ideas. Or, as Salem says, "Enjoy your mind and feed it often." This guide, and Mind Games, will offer your mind a hearty meal!"

And here are some weblinks I've found:

http://www.marcsalem.com/salem.html

http://www.talkinbroadway.com/world/Mindgames.html

Still, I remain steadfast in my skepticism. This so called "book" that he's selling through the mail is $19.95 (plus $1.95 shipping and hadling) that comes with a money back guarantee.

Big deal. I just called my local Barnes and Noble to see if there were any books that this guy had previously published (and where I could get more or less the SAME information for MUCH LESS) yet they couldn't come up with anything.

This immediately raises several red flags for me. First off, since he probably did a mass mailing of this sales letter (at least a 1,000 to couple of thousands), and with your typical 2% response rate (if lucky), at $19.95 per book, with the cost of postage, evelopes, multi-colored two page letter and 3 different inserts for "free gifts if you act NOW!" I don't know how this guy could even possibly break even on his return. I would surmise that the book he would send me would be nothing more but a 20 page pamphlet filled with very vague and dry ideas that do nothing more but advertise the REAL meat of his "product:" An enrollment to a 3 day seminar or to a specialized website to learn the REAL techniques, and not just some fluffy jiberish...for some outrageous price like $495 or something.

Am I being too close minded and cynical about this offer? Or is selling a book through mail order actually cheaper that going through the traditional channels of obtaining an agent and going through a publisher? If that's the case, then why is the local Barnes and Noble by my house doing so well?

I am really interested in what this guy has to say but absolutely refuse being taken for a ride. So before I flush my $20 down the toilet, please kindly share any thoughts and opinions that you may have on this manner, and if you could direct me to any particular websites or books that either debunk or credit him (or expose his secrets), I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you fellow skeptics! I look forward to your replies! :)


-Tommyz


From what little I read on his web page and the promo piece, this guy’s the real thing. He’s a performing mentalist or a professional con artist. That’ not to say he’s a criminal con artist, this guy is skilled in mind-games just like it says on his web page.

Regarding the book. It probably self published (why B&N does not carry it.) Self publishing is not necessarily a bad thing for something like this. The publishing biz is notoriously fickle and it’s really very difficult to get stuff published.

Also, $20 is not out of line for a print-on-demand title. Most self publishing houses like Publish America charge around $17.00 per book, pretty steep compared with a mass market title but not out of the question for the kind of product you are looking at.

[Soapy Sam]

As with all ads, the vital question is- "Did I feel a need for this product before I read the ad?

If answer=yes, then
investigate further
else
Bin it
End if

[songstress]

I don't see how you can trash what Marc Salem does, yet exalt the 'amazing' Randi. They both do the same things.

Are both of them 'con artists?' If not, why not?

[Ashles]

Originally posted by songstress
I don't see how you can trash what Marc Salem does, yet exalt the 'amazing' Randi. They both do the same things.

Are both of them 'con artists?' If not, why not?
They don't do the same things.

Randi claims to be able to create stage and close up illusions.
Can he do that or not?
Undoubtedly yes.

Marc Salem claims to be able to alter your perceptions and change the way you think?
Can he do that or not?
We don't know.

So certainly Marc Salems claims and abilities are more in question than Randi's. It doesn't mean he can't do what he's claiming, but almost certainly not for everyone. And probably no more than any other self-help book on the market.

So a comparison betwen Salem and Randi is no more appropriate or useful than comparing my Excel skills with Marc Salem's claims.

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by songstress
I don't see how you can trash what Marc Salem does, yet exalt the 'amazing' Randi. They both do the same things.

Are both of them 'con artists?' If not, why not?

Randi is upfront about being a con artist. He uses his tricks to entertain us and educate us so that we can more easily spot con artists who are using their talents to trick us out of our money.

I don't know about Marc Salem, but I have no trouble imagining that there are plenty of people who use mentalist tricks to cheat people out of their money.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
As with all ads, the vital question is- "Did I feel a need for this product before I read the ad?

If answer=yes, then
investigate further
else
Bin it
End if

Gah! My brain does not work on interpreted languages! Write it in something I can compile into the native language of my architecture!

btw, Ashles, love the new avatar!

[Ashles]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
btw, Ashles, love the new avatar!
Those little scamps get everywhere. :)

[Sherman Bay]

Originally posted by songstress
I don't see how you can trash what Marc Salem does, yet exalt the 'amazing' Randi. They both do the same things.

Are both of them 'con artists?' If not, why not? Suggested reading (http://www.skeptic.com/01.1.randi-paranormal.html)

There is a difference between someone who says, "I can fool you by performing tricks and you will enjoy it!" and "Buy my book and unlock the deep, dark secrets of the universe!"

Tommyz, if you do buy the book and read it, I think we would be interested in your comments -- in your opinion, did it deliver what was promised, or was it psychobabble?

[tommyz]

Originally posted by songstress
I don't see how you can trash what Marc Salem does, yet exalt the 'amazing' Randi.

First off, in what way, shape or form am I "trashing" Mr. Salem?

Why is it that if I whenever I simply question someone's intentions that I'm always looked upon as a cantankerous curmudgeon, but if I were to just go ahead and blindly purchase this guy's book (without doing ANY kind of research or thought process) and simply get a 30 page advertisement for his 3 day, $500 seminar (hypothetically speaking)...that I'm a gullible idiot???

If doing careful research and critical investigation BEFORE making a compulsive buying decision makes me a cantankerous curmudgeon, then so be it. I'd rather be than a completely gullible blithering idiot.

By the way, thanks for your post and the great weblink Sherman Bay! I'm still carefully considering this decision...thanks to everyone! :)

[Sherman Bay]

Originally posted by tommyz
First off, in what way, shape or form am I "trashing" Mr. Salem?I think songstress may have been talking to me, not you, as I said, "He performs magic tricks of the same sort as Randi does." If so, I'll be glad to take the heat, and I think I answered that accusation already.

Tommyz, I must admit I have not read the book in question. But I like to think that I have a finely-tuned BS detector that often goes off when placed near such material. After seeing a ton of this stuff over the years, having attended many seminars, been subjected to pep talks from friends enamoured with the latest self-help fad that is forgotten tomorrow, it all begins to look pretty much the same.

But YMMV -- why don't you buy the book (sucker :) ) and tell us if it is worth anything? Or spend your hard-earned dollars on a James Randi book instead! Have you read them all?

[agreenfield1]

Did anybody catch the segment on Marc Salem on 60 Minutes (Wednesday)?

[Garrette]

I caught the last bit of the 60 Minutes segment. Some effects and a fair amount of commentary.

Based on what I saw, I have no real beef with Salem.

He was quite clear that he has no paranormal powers, though interestingly the commentator (I don't know which one it was, Mike Wallace, maybe) kept hinting that maybe Salem does.

What Salem did say boiled down to these two things:

1. Some of what I do is magic tricks

2. Some of what I do is an enhanced ability to read people's faces, emotions, gestures, etc. to determine if they are telling the truth.


I saw nothing in the demonstrations to support #2.

I know the methods to some of what he showed, can guess at some others, and don't know for at least one.

[agreenfield1]

In case anyone is interested, here is a short summary of his stunts:

1) Five people make a simple drawing, which are shuffled together and given to Marc (who wasn't watching the drawing process). Marc chooses a drawing, and asks each person if they drew it; he instructed them to say that they did not, so one person would be lying. Supposedly, by observing their manerisms he was able to identify the person who lied.

2) He changed the time on Mike Walleces watch without touching it (supposedly, anyway).

3) He read the serial number of a dollor bill from Mike Walleces wallet while blindfoled and turned away

4) He identified an object (walking cane) while blindfolded and without touching it.

5) He flipped through a book (faced away from himself and toward the subject); asked them to choose a word from the page (a word of their choice). He then identified the word ("Photographer" in this case).

There may have been a couple others, maybe someone else can chime in with them.

[Garrette]

Hmmm... if those are the only stunts he did on the show, then I guess I saw it all.

To be fair, the bit with the cane was more than just saying "this is a cane." He told about its history, too.

He also picked a lady out of the audience and told her where her last vacation was.

He also did something with spelling a word that the host was thinking of, but I came in during the middle of that one.

What makes it difficult to comment is that the video wasn't continuous from start to finish; it was clipped bits showing just the center of each effect.

For instance, during the watch effect, they only showed the host holding the watch in his clenched fist--no indications how it got there.

Ditto for the dollar bill serial number trick. The host said it was from his own wallet but didn't show the lead up.

He did some of this blindfolded, the method to which was quite obvious to magicians.

The only one for which I can't think of an answer (besides stooge or other outside help) is the lady and the last vacation spot.

[Sherman Bay]

I saw just a part of the Salem show on 60 Minutes. Wallace seemed flabergasted, but I don't believe he consulted with any other magicians to see if they were flabergasted too (I suspect they would have been underwhelmed, as I was).

Like many shows of this type, there is insufficient evidence to be able to tell exactly how all tricks were done. Any good magician can suggest more than one way for each. Events that would be significant to a magician rarely are to the show's producers, so they don't get taped or aired (off camera work might have been involved in some tricks).

I really have no beef with Salem for the most part -- he is competent and entertaining, although I don't see much that I haven't seen before. But I bristle when he makes borderline-psychic claims like, "I have trained myself to read minds or body language." My guess is the trick where he supposedly deduced who drew each drawing was less dependent on the artist's body language and more dependent on Salem's casual observations of how their pencil moved while they were writing. One drawing was tiny, and so was the corresponding pencil movement. This is a big clue when another drawing is a big one.

Stopping the pulse can be done with a ball held in the armpit. Squeeze and release control affects the pulse.

I'm sure the watch was changed by sleight of hand way before the deed appeared to be done, as many tricks are.

The last trick with the tape recorder puzzled me, but only as to what was supposed to be happening. What was he typing on or tapping into? A PDA? If so, he could have been sending the audio instructions to the tape "recorder" box held by Wallace, and it was not playing back a tape, but acting as a receiver and speaker for his nearby transmissions (digital instructions to play back a few prerecorded speech fragments when requested would be a pretty simple program in a PDA). If he really did make an advance prediction tape, he would have no need to be pressing a bunch of buttons after the event. Again, I have too little info from the show to tell much more.

No, I'm not revealing any deep, dark secrets. Randi explains all of these as commonly-known tricks in his books.

[hgc]

I saw Salem on stage. He was quite skilled at doing the usual magic/mentalist tricks. Nothing new. But, he's somewhat charisma-challenged -- not such a great stage presense. I would not strongly recommend him for a live performance. He's no Randi or Kreskin when it comes to presense, that's for sure.

[Sherman Bay]

Originally posted by agreenfield1
He read the serial number of a dollor bill from Mike Walleces wallet while blindfoled and turned awayOriginally posted by Garrette
Ditto for the dollar bill serial number trick. The host said it was from his own wallet but didn't show the lead up.
Before the show, Marc stops and talks to Mike in the hall. The conversation goes something like this:

Marc: Say, the vending machine is out of change, and I want to get a soda. Could you change a dollar bill?"

Mike: Sure. 4 quarters OK?

Marc: Great. Now I can quench my thirst.

Guess which bill Wallace pulls out during the show, hours later? Guess how likely it is that Wallace connects the two events without help?To be fair, the bit with the cane was more than just saying "this is a cane." He told about its history, too.Before the show, a helpful young man in the lobby saw a woman walking with a cane and offered to help her to her seat. The converstaion goes something like this:

Woman: Why, thank you, young man.

Man: No problem. My aunt has a cane a lot like yours. Did you get that at Cane World?

Woman: No, it was a gift from my cousin in South America who had it carved especially for me by an old indian carver who died just after he finished it.

Man: Interesting! Well, enjoy the show, and take good care of your cane!He also picked a lady out of the audience and told her where her last vacation was.That nice young man gets around, and always seems to be hanging around the lobby, talking to people who are waiting in line.

Man: What an interesting bracelet you have on. Did you make it?

Woman: No, I got it on my summer vacation to Maui...

Guess who the nice young man works for? You see where this is going?

[Garrette]

Thanks, Sherman, but I already know about pre-show work. I assumed something similar for the dollar bill and possibly the cane.

For some reason, it didn't seem right in my imagination for the vacation thing, but you're right, it could be.

[agreenfield1]

Originally posted by Sherman Bay

The last trick with the tape recorder puzzled me, but only as to what was supposed to be happening. What was he typing on or tapping into? A PDA? If so, he could have been sending the audio instructions to the tape "recorder" box held by Wallace, and it was not playing back a tape, but acting as a receiver and speaker for his nearby transmissions (digital instructions to play back a few prerecorded speech fragments when requested would be a pretty simple program in a PDA). If he really did make an advance prediction tape, he would have no need to be pressing a bunch of buttons after the event. Again, I have too little info from the show to tell much more.



Yeah I forgot about that one. I'm no expert on this stuff, but I too noticed him staring and tapping intently onto is forearm. That was pretty terrible.

My probelm with his act is that he claims he can, for example, identify the person lying by watching their mannerisms. This is theoretically possible, and would be very interesting if that is in fact how he was doing it. However, this act was mixed up with other which were clearly trickery (i.e. the watch), so I con't be sure if he is 'cheating' or truely demonstrating some type talent.

[Sherman Bay]

Originally posted by agreenfield1
My probelm with his act is that he claims he can, for example, identify the person lying by watching their mannerisms. This is theoretically possible, and would be very interesting if that is in fact how he was doing it. However, this act was mixed up with other which were clearly trickery (i.e. the watch), so I con't be sure if he is 'cheating' or truely demonstrating some type talent.
I have the same problem, but I make a distinction between lying which is an integral part of a magic show, and lying to sell you something like a book that purports to teach you a skill that doesn't actually exist.

It may seem like a fine line, indeed, but it's what separates the Randis from the Salems.

I've seen Randi do the common watch trick -- accepting a watch from a volunteer, he looks at it, comments on it, shows the time to the audience, then pulls out the stem and moves the hands sureptitiously, of course, while covered up by patter and skillful manipulation. He places it face down in a volunteer's hand, then pretends to check it -- "Yes, it's still right on time!" which is a blatant lie, but it fools the audience. A few hocus-pocus incantations and wand-waving moments later, the volunteer is asked to look at it, and the time has magically changed!

But there is a big difference between this and a fraudulent claim to heal, levitate, prevent or detect something which cannot be done, then charging for that fraudulent service or product.

[Billy]

I did a search and I think this is the book you are talking about......http://www.promotionclearinghouse.com/make-anyone-do-anything/

He is not offering a book on mentalism (like Ian Rowland). The way I read it he really is claiming to be selling some sort of paranormal secrets. If I possesed these powers I wouldn't be bothered trying to flog a book for a few dollars - I would go right after Randi's million. Then maybe cash in further by selling a book on how I did it - but that's just me.

If you look at the sites "other offers" you will see a few more similar books. Including one from the "Amazing Kreskin". I read that one maybe about 10 years ago - I am in the UK and Kreskin isn't well known here but I had heard references to him on TV. Anyway, I can't remember the contents exactly but I did think it was a complete con. I never recieved the promised refund but they still kept me on their mailing list and bombarded me with more crap offers - one of them being a Kreskin medallion that promised all sorts of paranormal benefits for it's owner. I declined the offer. Then of course your details get sold on to others of the same nature resulting in years of more and more crap in your mail, which bugged me more than the original rip off.

There was some discussion on one of the boards here about whether Kreskin was just performing a mentalist act or if he really claimed to have paranormal powers. Well I don't know about that, but his advert is certainly worded to give the impression that he is the real thing.

It can be difficult to maintain a healthy skeptical outlook as well as an open mind to trying out new things, and not feel suckered when you do try something that's a rip off. But that's life.

[svengali]

Marc Salem is very well respected in the magic community as a fine mentalist. I expect Randi himself would approve. I have seen his show and he seemed entertaining and competent. I must confess that I had trouble hearing him properly not because of the acoustics or the microphone but simply because I do not believe he has good diction and tends to mumble his words.

As for his claims I am afraid that we sceptics take this sort of thing too seriously. Mentalists often make claims or imply things. However they do not do it for fraudulent purposes but merely for the sake of entertainment and showmanship. In other words theatrical licence. I wouldn't get too het up over this since fraud is not intended and they usually do not do readings of any kind. I know for a fact that Marc Salem does not do psychic readings and only works as an entertainer, no more and no less.

I suppose it could be argued that he and his brethren entertainers could be encouraging false beliefs but I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are far more important targets to concern ourselves about such as Sylvia Browne and others who do REAL harm by saying irresponsible things.

[epepke]

I've seen Randi do the common watch trick -- accepting a watch from a volunteer, he looks at it, comments on it, shows the time to the audience, then pulls out the stem and moves the hands sureptitiously, of course, while covered up by patter and skillful manipulation. He places it face down in a volunteer's hand, then pretends to check it -- "Yes, it's still right on time!" which is a blatant lie, but it fools the audience. A few hocus-pocus incantations and wand-waving moments later, the volunteer is asked to look at it, and the time has magically changed!

I saw Randi do this one at a Tampa skeptics' meeting some 15 years back. I'm embarassed to say that I made a noise of appreciation at exactly the wrong time. In my defense, I can only say that I'd never seen that trick before.