Those Darn Magnets

[CptColumbo]

There was an arts and crafts fair at my mall this week, and not just one but two booths selling magnets as theraputic aids. One was right outside my store. I could hear them explaining that it would prevent all the usual ailments, and that it doesn't work for a small percentage of people. I've never been as pissed off at a retailer more than I was then. Usually when I see a group selling alternative medicine I just avoid them, and explain to whomever I'm with why. In this case, however, I was stuck. At least the jelly booth next to them was giving out free samples.

[CFLarsen]

Ask them if it is the strength of the magnet - as in Gauss (or Ørsted, but you can't pronounce that ;)) - that does the trick. If they answer yes, show them one of these babies (http://www.gaussboys.com/default.php?cPath=1).

People should be cured much faster, hm?

[clarsct]

Or better yet, ask them if MRI can provide the same benefits on a much higher scale, as the Gauss on the MRI for exceeds any puny refrigerator magnet. Then ask them why MRI doesn't immediately make people extremely healthy.

Ask a lot of questions. Personally, I find the results well worth the effort. Usually, by the time I'm done, all the anger has been replaced by mirth.

[VeronicaX]

I got one of those magnetic underlays from my mum for xmas. Apparently, I can't get a refund for it, but it makes my bed (which is normally hard) a little bit softer thanks to its extra-fluffy-external layer of wool.

This makes me sleep a bit more (disturbingly) comfy but the neck pain never ceases to come back in the morning. Maybe I should get a matching magnetic pillow. Yeah, that's it.

[kleinjahr]

They've been around for a while now. Checkout,http://www.history.rochester.edu/Scientific_American/vol1/vol1n008/n1.htm

Guy I work with wears magnets, they make him feel better he says. Fine enough, whatever turns your crank. However when I pointed out that he was constantly exposed to electromagnetism, from motors, wiring etc. He exclaimed that his magnets were natural. So I asked him what was the difference between a "natural" magnetic field and one that was generated by machinery. It got sooo quiet,all of a sudden. :D

[Hitch]

It's not just the uncontrolled application of magnetic fields in large doses that does the trick. You need to properly apply the precisely tuned magnets to the exact locations to achieve the desired effect. In fact the failure of the magnets in some cases can almost always be attributed to mis-alignment of the therapeutic magnets.

If I could just keep a straight face and pretend to believe this stuff, I'd be rich.

[ma1ic3]

If something as small as, say 100 gauss, can effect you, then something much larger will effect you much more. Whatever physical thing 100 gauss can cause to happen, something that is 10,000 gauss will cause to happen on a much larger scale. If 100 guass actually did something significant, such as increase blood flow by a significant factor, then think what damage 10,000 gauss would do.

Diamagnetic materials, such as a human, can be levitated at 100,000 gauss. It has been done to frogs and insects at the HFML, and even then there is barely any noticable effects. Just increases heart rate a tiny bit and maybe a couple other things.

edit: here are some numbers to look at that I've collected. keep in mind that 1 tesla = 10,000 gauss


TESLA EFFECTS
10,000,000,000 A hydrogen atom becomes 200 times narrower.
100,000 Squeezes electron orbitals into cigar shapes (instantly kill you).
45 No important effects on enzyme systems have been observed.
24 Produce a 10% reduction of nerve impulse conduction velocity.
10 Diamagnetic materials are levitated.
10 Blood pressure increase of 28% is predicted theoretically.
6 Blood pressure increase of 10% is predicted theoretically.

[kookbreaker]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Ask them if it is the strength of the magnet - as in Gauss (or Ørsted, but you can't pronounce that ;)) - that does the trick. If they answer yes, show them one of these babies (http://www.gaussboys.com/default.php?cPath=1).

People should be cured much faster, hm?

The woowoo market has been using Neodymium magnets for some time now.

I got a call forwarded to me the other day since we also sell magnets (not for medicine). The person wanted to grill me about the medicinal qualities of out magnets. I simply told them that we make no such claims about the magnets we sell.

But man did I want to rip them a new one.

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by ma1ic3
1 tesla = 10,000 gauss


TESLA EFFECTS
10,000,000,000 A hydrogen atom becomes 200 times narrower.
100,000 Squeezes electron orbitals into cigar shapes (instantly kill you).
45 No important effects on enzyme systems have been observed.
24 Produce a 10% reduction of nerve impulse conduction velocity.
10 Diamagnetic materials are levitated.
10 Blood pressure increase of 28% is predicted theoretically.
6 Blood pressure increase of 10% is predicted theoretically.


What about at 1 telsa (10,000 guass) - would the blood pressure rise 1%?

Then say at 5,000 guass. Would blood pressure increase by 0.5%?

Ya can see where I'm going with this eh. Okay heres the biggie:

What about 100 guass? Would blood pressure increase by 0.01%?

[Orangutan]

WOW!.

http://www.gaussboys.com/product_info.php?products_id=71&osCsid=f5a1781953d1c239720547f0ba257fc1

This one claimes just the opposite:

WARNING:: This magnet can cause serious bodily injury. Only for seriously seasoned magnet handlers

hehe.
O.

PS .

The biggest neo-mag I have is an 1" disk thats 1/2" deep. and I find that prettys scary to handle.

I get mine from KJ magnetics you can google them if you like, they don't even sell ones as big as those guys though!.

[andycal]

I'm curious. Why is the magnet dagerous? Is it because metal objects in the vacinity will come hurling through the air? Or because you'll get your fingers trapped when it sticks to the fridge?

[jmercer]

Originally posted by andycal
I'm curious. Why is the magnet dagerous? Is it because metal objects in the vacinity will come hurling through the air? Or because you'll get your fingers trapped when it sticks to the fridge?

Forget "trapped". Think "crushed". The biggest one they sell will lift over 400 lbs - which means it exerts a force of over 400 lbs on the object.

Place your hand palm-up on a table. Have someone GENTLY lower a 14 lb bowling ball onto your fingertips, and consider the discomfort. Then consider what 100, 200 or 400 lbs would do. :D

[ma1ic3]

Originally posted by DavoMan
What about at 1 telsa (10,000 guass) - would the blood pressure rise 1%?

Then say at 5,000 guass. Would blood pressure increase by 0.5%?

Ya can see where I'm going with this eh. Okay heres the biggie:

What about 100 guass? Would blood pressure increase by 0.01%?

Maybe, which isn't a "significant factor". I don't even think 28% really matters.

[Perpetual Notion]

We now have the Advanced Magenetic Research Institute opening in my town and they claim to be able to treat everything from arthritis, to Parkinson's to Alzheimer's with their wacky magnetic machine. It requires 200 treatments at $50 a pop. The FDA has already busted the parent company once, but they keep hanging in there and have plenty of testimonials from patients. BTW, their founder is a dentist and the doctor in charge of our location is an opthamologist. Yep, that's who I want treating my Parkinson's.

Here's some "facts" from one of their sites:

Basic Function and Theory

Fact 1: 4000 years ago the Earth's magnetic field was 5 gauss strong. At present it is only .4 gauss. This is a reduction of 10 times the original amount.

Fact 2: Other than the earth, our only source for magnetic energy is our brains.

Conclusion: It would appear wise to supplement our exposure to an Earth-type magnetic field to regenerate and heal many diseases previously considered untreatable by conventional methods.

* Supportive research is being done independently by various organizations worldwide. Dr. E. N. Gumiel, chief consultant in biological research to the World Development Organization and Director of the Genesis Project reported that their group found that insects lived five times longer in substantially enhanced magnetic fields and human tissue cells lived up to two and one half times longer.
* The initial twentieth century awakening call regarding the necessity of the geomagnetic field was discovered when early Russian cosmonauts were found to have up to 80% mineral loss in their bones, brought about by their extended space flights. Artificially generated magnetic fields are now used in space capsules to prevent these losses and assist in maintaining health during space trips.
* Dr. Valerie Hunt, a former researcher at U.C.L.A., was able to create a geomagnetic-free cubicle in which human subjects were placed with appropriate monitoring devices indicating mental and physical activity and body responses. First, the subjects lost emotional control and would weep in a short period of time. Then they began to lose muscular co-ordination, and in a little more time it began to show effects on the heart muscle, at which time they were removed. So in reality, we could only exist a few hours without the Earth's magnetic field.


If, then, magnetism is so critical to maintain life and longevity, we should learn all we can about it, how it affects our bodies, and why we need more of it. Basic to any further discussion is the fact that the earth was formerly surrounded by a much stronger magnetic field than that which exists today. The U.S. Geological Survey has been recording the Earth's magnetic fields for almost 160 years, and it continues to decline at the rate of five percent per hundred years. The present average measurement is only .4 Gauss (unit of measurement for magnetism). Four thousand years ago it was 4 Gauss, which can be confirmed by several evaluation techniques. It is believed that at the time the dinosaurs roamed the earth, the geomagnetic field could have been as high as 200 Gauss. So keep in mind that life today is existing in a drastically deficient geomagnetic environment.

Science has established beyond all doubt that all living cells are electromagnetic by nature. There are only two natural sources of magnetism available to you: Your Brain and the Earth. The energy generating capacity of the brain comes from the astrocyte cells (80% of total brain cells). These cells produce a pulsed, living, magnetic field for efficiency. The Earth provides a supportive steady-state field from which your body draws on to enhance molecular action. The two magnetic fields work together to accomplish magnetic resonance (happening primarily during restorative hours of sleep) which dramatically enhances the chemical reaction of the body.

When the magnetic field passes through the atoms comprising the molecular structure of the structural cells of the body in the correct direction, it will increase their energy state, which in turn enhances their sharing of electrons. All this increased action is a catalyst to all the chemical reactions in the body.

Most of us have not realized how critical the environmental amount of magnetism from the Earth is to life. And even less known is the fact that the geomagnetic field is so drastically depleted. This depletion undoubtedly explains why people respond so well to magnetism...we are in a deficiency state!

We continue to work towards getting more studies done to provide more scientific understanding of the function and relationship of magnetism and health. It isn't easy, nor is it fast! We invite your participation or suggestions. Co-operation with other futuristic health professionals giving knowledge, time, and effort, will contribute to building a matrix of information for the energy medicine of the future.

[DavoMan]

Is any of that actually true? 5% per 100 years is absolutely huge. Hasn't the average human's life span doubled in the last 200 years? I like those odds.

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by ma1ic3
Maybe, which isn't a "significant factor". I don't even think 28% really matters.
28% not significant? I don't know about you, but I concider a 28% increase on blood pressure significant. And well..a 0.05% increase in pressure might not be significant but it is definately there, right? Assuming that the patient doesn't do anything & stays still for the entire measuring periud.:D :p

[ma1ic3]

Originally posted by DavoMan
28% not significant? I don't know about you, but I concider a 28% increase on blood pressure significant.

You do know about me though, I told you. :) And I didn't say it wasn't a significant factor, just that I doubted that it would matter. If your blood pressure was always like that it would probably be a bad thing. I don't know much about it. I made a thread about it some time ago on the Straight Dope. There isn't much there, but it's something. I would have linked to it, but I couldn't locate it. Feel free to add anything you know about it, because I'd like to know.

Originally from a file on my computer
Nim
A magnetic field of 10 tesla can levitate diamagnetic materials, such as wood, frogs, water, humans, fruit, etc... Here is a link with some movies of levitating diamagnetic materials: Movies of levitating objects

Theoretically, a human exposed to a magnetic field of 10 tesla would experience a 28% increase in blood pressure. A 6 tesla magnetic field is expected to cause a 6% increase in blood pressure. At 1.5 tesla no significant changes are expected. MRI machines work at .5 to 2 tesla.

So my question is, when does an increase of blood pressure become a problem for the average joe?

beajerry
Are you Magneto Jr.?

Nim
Yes.

And so it is important that I know.

vasyachkin
2 tesla is some serious magnetic field brother. and i venture to say 6% blood pressure change is pretty much going to go unnoticed.

also are we talking permanent change in pressure or temporary ? just popping one ephedra pill will probably raise your blood pressure more, for 6 hours. and i take that **** all the time.

Nim
I am pretty sure your blood pressure would only be raised for only as long as you are exposed to the magnetic field.

yawndave
quote:

Originally posted by beajerry
Are you Magneto Jr.?

Hey! You made me burst out laughing in the public library here!

picunurse
One's blood pressure changes through out the day. It will sky rocket when one coughs. People are squishy so there's lots of room for adjustment . A 10% increase would change 120/70 to 132/82 not significant at all.

suezeekay
It also changes minute to minute. I take mine at home because I'm monitoring it. The first read is always higher than the subsequent readings; sometimes by as much as +18 systolic and +10 diastolic. These are readings taken about 1 minute apart and five in a row. It's higher when I'm watching Survivor.


I just noticed that I said 6% instead of 10%. I looked it up again and found 10% to make sure 6% wasn't the right number.

Originally posted by DavoMan
And well..a 0.05% increase in pressure might not be significant but it is definately there, right? Assuming that the patient doesn't do anything & stays still for the entire measuring periud.:D :p [/B]

When did 0.01% turn into 0.05%?

Here is something I found:

http://medicine.osu.edu/radiology/pdfs/faculty_pdfs/Chakeres_pdfs/VS.pdf
This study examines the effects of static magnetic field strengths up to 8 Tesla on the vital sign physiology of 25 human subjects. Pulse rate, respiratory rate, electrocardiogram (ECG), systolic and diastolic blood pressures, finger pulse oxygenation levels, core body temperature (via the external auditory canal), and multiple fiber optic temperatures were repeatedly measured. The quantitative measures were then statistically analyzed. The largest statistically significant changes observed were related to the transition from supine to upright outside of the magnetic field. One statistically significant correlation was observed between the systolic blood pressures and field strength, but it had no clinical significance.

Btw: If your systolic blood pressure is at 125, which is normal, then a 0.01% increase would only change that to 126.25. I think if we counted back from 6 tesla to 100 then it would be closer to 0.0166% which is a 2.075 increase instead of 1.25.

[jj]

Originally posted by jmercer
Forget "trapped". Think "crushed". The biggest one they sell will lift over 400 lbs - which means it exerts a force of over 400 lbs on the object.

Place your hand palm-up on a table. Have someone GENTLY lower a 14 lb bowling ball onto your fingertips, and consider the discomfort. Then consider what 100, 200 or 400 lbs would do. :D

I don't want that magnet anywhere near my computer, or my microwave oven, or, ecch, what would happen if somebody slapped it on the side of a transformer?

I don't know. I don't think I want to know, either. :(

[teddygrahams]

Originally posted by ma1ic3

Btw: If your systolic blood pressure is at 125, which is normal, then a 0.01% increase would only change that to 126.25. I think if we counted back from 6 tesla to 100 then it would be closer to 0.0166% which is a 2.075 increase instead of 1.25. [/B]

Check those decimal points. You're off by a factor of 100 !

[tracer]

Originally posted by jj
I don't want that magnet anywhere near my computer, or my microwave oven, or, ecch, what would happen if somebody slapped it on the side of a transformer?
It would interfere with the Transformer's joints sufficiently that the Transformer would no longer be able to turn into Optimus Prime. Even if Megatron was attacking. The Decepticons should look into weaponizing this technology.

[Skepiroth]

that magnet crap works because magnetism is, well... weird (note by 'weird' I mean it is difficult to understand w/o some calculus and an introduction to E&M). Therefore, you can propose weird cures to a vaguely understood ailment. [dry humor] But hey, what do I know? I am just a skeptical naysayer. I think we should have certified magnetic therapists. They should be educated in vector calculus, linear algebra, electricity and magnetism, and neurology [/dry humor]

[ma1ic3]

Originally posted by teddygrahams
Check those decimal points. You're off by a factor of 100 !

This is what I did.

6 tesla (60,000 gauss) = 10%

SO

60,000/600 = 100 gauss
10/600 = 0.0166666666666667%

What did I do wrong?

[Blondin]

You can have a lot of fun playing with magnets.

A number of years ago I had a couple of huge rectangular ceramic magnets that I got out of an old removable platter disk-drive. I put one of them on top of a rafter in my shed and I was amusing my kids by releasing spanners, nuts & bolts, etc about 6 inches from the rafter and they would jump to the ceiling and hang there. When I put my box-end spanner back on its rack 3 or 4 of the spanners on either side swung toward it so they wouldn't hang straight down anymore.

Another time I left one in a box on a shelf under the TV. It took several days before I realized why the TV went all funny in one corner of the screen and several weeks for the colour to return to normal after I removed it.

I also found they were quite dangerous. You couldn't pull them straight off of a flat metal surface, you had to slide them to an edge and if you happened to get your fingers under a corner when it was slapping against something you could get a nasty pinch. Magnetic force works as an inverse square so as you half the distance between a magnet and an attracted item the force of attraction increases by 4. This makes it very hard to bring a magnet close to a metal object slowly. If a ceramic magnet hits a metallic object hard enough it can break and very sharp little splinters are produced.

Also, if you play with powerfull magnets too much then every time you get an erection you will point North. Okay, I made that one up but the point is that, as much fun as it is to play with them, you should not do it without safety glasses and gloves and don't let children play with them unsupervised.

[CptColumbo]

BTW-they're back and this time they're selling...wait for it...

MAGNETIC WATER!!

At least they aren't right outside my store this time, but come on.

There is another guy, outside my store, selling magnets, but they're for fun. He also sells swords...HMMM.