"earth lights"

[davidsmith73]

I was wondering if anyone had seen something similar to my experience:

It happened about 7 years ago, although I wrote down what I had seen immediately after the sighting. The phenomena basically consisted of a dull ball of light that moved across the night sky quite slowly. I say quite slowly compared to the speed that an average shooting star would seem. I am certain this was not a shooting star for several reasons. Firstly, it was too big. It was a little larger than a full moon. Secondly, it took on a slightly jerky path, not a straight line. Thirdly, there was no trail. It was a dark, clear and calm night with no wind. I can't imagine it was someone shining a bright flashlight into the sky because there were no clouds to reflect off. Unfortunately I ran inside to get other witnesses before it wandered too far away but it had disappeared by the time I returned.

I've heard about "earth lights" been seen in certain parts of the world, particularly Norway I think. This was well populated industrial north of England so I assume that if it is a recurring phenomena then others may have seen similar things. Not sure why I've only asked about the sighting now. It wasn't particularly exciting, a dull ball of light. But slightly mysterious nontheless.

[Soapy Sam]

Sounds typical of ball lightning. I have witnessed something very similar, though the size was about a quarter what you describe.

[DavoMan]

If it was a kind of projection of some kind from the ground, any slight movement at the source would probably be exadurated way up high. That might account for the jerkyness.

[Garrette]

Can't remember the name, but there was a similar, frequently reported phenomenon somewhere in the US (southwest, I think).

Many years of remaining unexplained, though documented as being real. Lots of attempted explanations like swamp gas.

Finally shown to be the headlights (possibly reflected) of cars on a distant highway.

Your description sounds similar.

I'll try to find links.

[Garrette]

The lights I remember are the Marfa Lights (http://www.lifeadventures.com/marfa.htm) .

Lots of links on the net about how they are unexplained. I can't find the headlight explanation, though.

I'll try again later. Perhaps it's in a book I have at home which means I may never find it again.

[Thomas]

Too bad you didn't see how it ended. Had it been ball lightning then the typical end of a sighting would be that it disappeared in a minor explosion, or simply just vanished into the air.

Despite that, the explanation you give do have the characteristics of a typical ball lightning story.

Although it's not (to my knowledge) a true replication, you can make small lightning balls in a microwave oven.
It is said that they even have appeared in submarines and airplanes - and have scared the crews and passengers beyond compare of course.
A russian scientist fooled around trying to replicate these lightning balls. Some say he succeded, but we'll never know, because he was found in his lab with a small burning mark on the forehead and at the end of both his big toes, dead.

Anyway, most of the data about them is just stories, however, there is so many of them that it seems unlikely that they shouldn't exist. I have never seen any, but I think a number of people on this board alone has. If it isn't ball lightning all these people has seen, then it's something else which looks like something in those terms. Something like that you saw, perhaps.

[Garrette]

It’s not exactly what I remember, but here is a link (http://www.astronomycafe.net/weird/lights/marfa41.htm) apparently ‘proving’ the Marfa lights to be headlights.

But if this link (http://tafkac.org/science/marfa_lights.html) is correct about the dates the lights were first seen, the headlights explanation falls away.

An interesting tie in from Australia where the Min Min Lights (http://www.senioryears.com/marfa.html) (I had not heard of them before stumbling across them on google) are explained away and the explanation posited as the same one for Marfa.

[songstress]

Hello David,

This light can be explained by natural means. You say that you saw it in the North of England? That region has many geological faults. It is often the case that people see lights over areas of high gelological interest. It's usually caused by the actions of the moving rocks, especially in high granite regions, due to the radioactivity within them. The rocks towards the North East (e.g. Durham) have a high content of shap granite. Close to that region is Scotland, a region of lots of geological interest and a place where strange lights are often seen. Dartmoor is yet another area.

It is not a good idea to live in a house made of granite because of the risk of radiation.

This may explain the reason why you witnessed the lights. Don't worry - they are natural.

Patsy.

[DavoMan]

Ya what.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by songstress
Hello David,

This light can be explained by natural means. You say that you saw it in the North of England? That region has many geological faults. It is often the case that people see lights over areas of high gelological interest. It's usually caused by the actions of the moving rocks, especially in high granite regions, due to the radioactivity within them. The rocks towards the North East (e.g. Durham) have a high content of shap granite. Close to that region is Scotland, a region of lots of geological interest and a place where strange lights are often seen. Dartmoor is yet another area.

It is not a good idea to live in a house made of granite because of the risk of radiation.

This may explain the reason why you witnessed the lights. Don't worry - they are natural.

Patsy.

I know that granite is often radioactive... and that buildings built of granite often have a higher background count than other buildings in the same physical area.

But how would that cause the creation of "strange lights?

[songstress]

Hello J Mercer,

Good point. The lights effect happens when the ground is either wet or when the faults move. Depending on conditions and level of radioactivity generated within the rocks, the radiation can manifest itself as 'earth lights.' I don't know whereabouts exactly Dave saw the lights, but I'd hazard a guess and say that the area had a high population of igneous (mostly granite) rocks. These lights, whilst sometimes caused by sedimentary rocks, are most often caused by igneous and metamorphic ones.

The lights resemble ball lightning, and are very dangerous to animals and humans. They usually (but not always) precede earthquakes, which leads we geologists to conclude that fault movement may play a part in their creation.

Nobody can say for certain, but I bet you that most of the UFO and strange-lights-in-the-sky cases can be explained by the natural geology of the areas involved.

Patsy.

edited - spelling mistake.

[Soapy Sam]

I think Patsy is alluding to piezoelectricity generated by stress in crystalline rocks. There is some evidence for this, though I never heard of it occurring in the UK, where tectonic stress is not a major problem.
I've never been convinced of the likelihood of this myself. I can believe that large charge concentrations could build up-, but I would expect it to dissipate in the normal ways. Why it would form lights is not obvious.
There is a related effect- triboluminescence- which certainly occurs in vein quartz- where friction generates light, but it occurs as the briefest of flickers,in or on the surface of the quartz; It's not a stable, freely mobile light source as described in the OP. Ball lightning is.

[mummymonkey]

Originally posted by songstress
It is not a good idea to live in a house made of granite because of the risk of radiation.I know a few Aberdonians, suddenly it all makes sense.

Granite City (http://www.british-publishing.com/Pages/AberdeenOG/granite.html)

[Correa Neto]

Originally posted by songstress
...snip...

It is not a good idea to live in a house made of granite because of the risk of radiation.
...snip...


Sorry for the OT digression.

I´ve heard that before and I think it may be a bit of an overstatement. I do remember reading an advise againt people using granite in their houses, but I also remember reading a lot of critics about it. Sorry, can´t remember the sources, this was ages ago and I probably read that while the megafauna was still around.:D

People live in ages-old cities built in granitic terrains, where radiation background is higher than other areas. Are there any evidences that these populations do have a significant higher number of cancer? And that the cases are really a result of this radiation, and not from some other cause? Please note that I am talking about a "standard" granitic area, not one with an U deposit, for example.

Run-of-the-mill granites have radioactive minerals -such as allanite- as a trace component. Thats a very small ammount. Sure, one can argue that feldspars will create some more radiation. If so, take gneisses and igneous felsic rocks from the list of safe materials...

Living in an area composed by black shales could be even more dangerous, given the geochemical affinity between carbon and some radioactive isotopes. And there are no adivises on that...

These are the reasons why I think its an overcautionary advise.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I think Patsy is alluding to piezoelectricity generated by stress in crystalline rocks. There is some evidence for this, though I never heard of it occurring in the UK, where tectonic stress is not a major problem.
I've never been convinced of the likelihood of this myself. I can believe that large charge concentrations could build up-, but I would expect it to dissipate in the normal ways. Why it would form lights is not obvious.
There is a related effect- triboluminescence- which certainly occurs in vein quartz- where friction generates light, but it occurs as the briefest of flickers,in or on the surface of the quartz; It's not a stable, freely mobile light source as described in the OP. Ball lightning is.

A piezoelectric effect makes more sense to me than radioactivity, that's for sure. The low level of radioactivity in granite - as far as I know - wouldn't generate any kind of condition that could create a charge in the air resulting in a light show. The amount of radioactivity required to generate any kind of electric charge would be rather dangerous to local life, I believe.

Piezoelectric charges, OTOH, certainly have the potential (pun semi-intended!) to do such a thing if the mass of crystals (and pressure) involved were substantial enough.

Thanks! :)

[songstress]

Thanks, Sam! X!

Patsy.

[MRC_Hans]

Several explanations are possible.

A meteorite is one of them. The usual shooting stars are at very high altitude, the gravel-sized particles enter the top layers of the atmosphere at speeds of up to 70km/s and immidiately burn up, showing a line or strak acroos part of the sky. Larger meteors or meteorites (depends on whether they reach the earth) and are braked by the outer layers of the atmosphere and can be seen as a fireball travelling at a seemingly moderate speed (actually, it moves quite fast, but the considerable distance makes it seem slow). It might have exploded while you were inside.

A reentering sattelite will act much like a meteorite.

A light on a plane, for instance, a landing light on a plane moving towards you, but at some angle. It disappears when they turn it off.

The jerky motion can be an illusion, actually produced by your own movements. With no surroundings for reference, it can be extremely difficult to judge that speed and movement of an object up in the sky.

Hans

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by songstress
Good point. The lights effect happens when the ground is either wet or when the faults move. Depending on conditions and level of radioactivity generated within the rocks, the radiation can manifest itself as 'earth lights.' I don't know whereabouts exactly Dave saw the lights, but I'd hazard a guess and say that the area had a high population of igneous (mostly granite) rocks. These lights, whilst sometimes caused by sedimentary rocks, are most often caused by igneous and metamorphic ones.

The lights resemble ball lightning, and are very dangerous to animals and humans. They usually (but not always) precede earthquakes, which leads we geologists to conclude that fault movement may play a part in their creation.

Nobody can say for certain, but I bet you that most of the UFO and strange-lights-in-the-sky cases can be explained by the natural geology of the areas involved. Isn't this Persinger's tectonic strain theory?

I had the impression that that was still considered tentative and up-in-the-air. Am I out of date? Has it been confirmed?

[davidsmith73]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Several explanations are possible.

A meteorite is one of them. The usual shooting stars are at very high altitude, the gravel-sized particles enter the top layers of the atmosphere at speeds of up to 70km/s and immidiately burn up, showing a line or strak acroos part of the sky. Larger meteors or meteorites (depends on whether they reach the earth) and are braked by the outer layers of the atmosphere and can be seen as a fireball travelling at a seemingly moderate speed (actually, it moves quite fast, but the considerable distance makes it seem slow). It might have exploded while you were inside.

A reentering sattelite will act much like a meteorite.

A light on a plane, for instance, a landing light on a plane moving towards you, but at some angle. It disappears when they turn it off.

The jerky motion can be an illusion, actually produced by your own movements. With no surroundings for reference, it can be extremely difficult to judge that speed and movement of an object up in the sky.

Hans

Thanks for replies Hans, but I find those explanations very unconvincing. The ball of light was far too dull to be a meteorite or anything re-entering the atmosphere. There was also no trail at all and also no sound. I had some trees in the foreground for reference, and it seemed to be not far above them. I realise it is very difficult to judge speed and altitude, but if this light was at very high altitude it must have been very large indeed!

[Soapy Sam]

Dr. A- I don't believe you are out of date. It's one of those ideas that makes sense on the face of it, but for which the data is anecdotal.
I don't know of any concrete evidence.

The main danger of radiation involving granite is decay of potassium in feldpars releasing radioactive argon. While this might be dangerous in accumulation, it's hard to see it as a significant health hazard in architecture. So far as I know, there has been no mass exodus from central Aberdeen.
The health hazard from banging your head on a granite lintel is probably higher.

ETA- I realise it is very difficult to judge speed and altitude, but if this light was at very high altitude it must have been very large indeed!

- and moving much faster! You put your finger on a critical point. Judging size and distance of a spherical light source of unknown luminosity is all but impossible unless it passes close to objects of known size.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by davidsmith73
Thanks for replies Hans, but I find those explanations very unconvincing. The ball of light was far too dull to be a meteorite or anything re-entering the atmosphere.

Actually, they are not very bright. Several films exist of them. You could have seen it through a haze, especially it apparantly was close to the horizon (you mentioned trees).

There was also no trail at all and also no sound.

There is not necessarily a visible trail, especially not if it is travelling towards you. And there is no sound, or if there is, it will take several minutes to reach you.


I had some trees in the foreground for reference, and it seemed to be not far above them.

Duh, have you ever seen the moon just above some trees? All this tells is something about the angle above the horizon.

I realise it is very difficult to judge speed and altitude, but if this light was at very high altitude it must have been very large indeed!

It is not difficult, it is impossible. A light against the sky can be anything between a few hundred yards and a thousand miles away

Hans

[davidsmith73]

Duh, have you ever seen the moon just above some trees? All this tells is something about the angle above the horizon.

I was also refering to the jerky movements of the light. If that was caused by my movements then my entire visual field should have moved. I had trees in the foreground and they did not seem to move. I still don't buy the meteor or re-entrant satellite idea. Has anyone seen a meteor that was larger than a full moon?

[MRC_Hans]

As I said there is a video somewhere. It is quite large. But it is a bit difficult to home in on what you saw seven years ago.

Hans

[Garrette]

david,

I'm wondering if you've given consideration to the headlight hypothesis as in the Marfa Lights link I posted.

By "consideration" I mean actively comparing your experience to the Marfa Lights and possibly the Min Min lights.