View Full Version : UK TV licence payers - get writing in!
Darat
19th May 2005, 04:56 AM
After seeing this post http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870907809#post1870907809 from Wudang I read the article s/he linked to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4559947.stm
...snip...
Although the value of African traditional medicine is becoming increasingly respected around the world, there are fears that the level of knowledge of the art is dwindling on the continent.
...snip...
"With Aids-related ailments, if someone comes in the early stages I can help them."
...snip...
As well as being a psychotherapist, Geraldine Kocroft is a fully-fledged traditional healer or n'anga.
...snip...
"It's absolutely priceless, it really works, and God has given it to us, but unfortunately I feel it's a slowly dying art," she said.
...snip...
I honestly couldn’t believe this article - it is beyond biased - I think it is not just irresponsible but actually dangerous, so as a UK TV licence fee payer I've sent this hastily put together compliant:
I am writing to complain about the many factual errors, the totally unsubstantiated opinions that are expressed as facts and the bias shown in the article referred to above:
1)”Although the value of African traditional medicine is becoming increasingly respected around the world,”
This is not true. Some specific substances and chemicals from a very small number of “traditional medicines” are being investigated for possible benefits. Plus there is not one system of “traditional” African medicine, “traditional” African medicine varies tremendously from area to area, it is ludicrous to portray it as if it is some homogeneous, well defined system of treating patients.
2) “Digging for roots and searching for different plants that have medicinal properties is an arduous task, requiring a great deal of skill.”
This further implies that some medicinal value has already been established and shows the bias of the piece. It is perhaps correct to say “Digging for roots and searching for different plants that IT IS CLAIMED have medicinal properties is an arduous task, requiring a great deal of skill.”
3)” "I've helped people with so many different diseases - backaches, nosebleeds, fertility problems, STDs, cancer, and even men who can't perform well in bed," said Ambuya Muzhange.”
The bias is again shown by not challenging this statement. Is it right to allow this statement to stand with millions dying from lack of treatment of their AIDS symptoms? Why was this lady’s statements not challenged and why was she not asked to substantiate her incredible claims?
Surely it is reasonable when publishing an article about health issues and “alternative “ treatments to seek proof that they work? Perhaps the author of the piece should have considered why, as the article put it “…many now prefer the pills of Western medicine”, I will offer a simple explanation – it is because those treatments work whereas the “traditional” treatments don’t.
4)” "With Aids-related ailments, if someone comes in the early stages I can help them."
In a continent with millions dying every year from AIDS it is irresponsible reporting to allow these statements to be presented without them being challenged. There is no “traditional” cure that has been proven to cure or even slow down the progression of AIDS. (Indeed since it is a recent disease one wonders how a “traditional” cure could have been developed.)
5) “As well as being a psychotherapist, Geraldine Kocroft is a fully-fledged traditional healer or n'anga.
…snip…
"It's absolutely priceless, it really works, and God has given it to us, but unfortunately I feel it's a slowly dying art," she said.
This now passes from the sublime to the ridiculous, a claim that “it” works from “psychotherapist” is the verification for the article?
I have rarely seen such a biased article outside of a New Age healer’s website. Considering the real health issues faced by the people of the African continent (such as the millions dying from AIDS and children dying because of easily preventable diseases) your article is irresponsible, dangerous, misleading and inexcusable.
Regards
If there are other UK (and of course non-UK) Members who feel as strongly as I do can I suggest they use the BBC's News feedback service (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3281777.stm) to make a compliant?
I've also sent an email to Randi to bring it to his attention.
(Edited for formatting.)
Ashles
19th May 2005, 05:09 AM
My comment to the BBC:
"I cannot believe on your "news" pages you wrote such a poorly researched and, frankly, irresponsible article.
Aside from all the other frankly ludicrous claims in the arcticle about traditional African medicine (whatever that is), the claim to be able to cure AIDS is actually quite disgusing bearing in mind the number of sufferers on that continent.
The writer has obviously never heard of medical testing and research.
I am amazed that such unfounded claims can be published as news by the BBC.
I believe there are some crop circles and haunted houses that might also require the insightful journalistic attention of Steve Vickers.
Frankly a very poor story written in an amazingly credulous manner."
I hate we have to pay a licence fee at the best of times, but this is just a disgrace. Slow news days are no excuse.
Mojo
19th May 2005, 05:28 AM
I thought Mugabe had kicked all the BBC's journalists out of Zimbabwe.
Ashles
19th May 2005, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by Mojo
I thought Mugabe had kicked all the BBC's journalists out of Zimbabwe.
Interesting point.
I think he gets round this by atually living in Zimbabwe and having married a local:
Steve Vickers and the dowry (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3614248.stm)
Edited a pint to a point
Ed
19th May 2005, 05:57 AM
It is woo-ism, surely but it is also a manifestation of PCness that is, at it's evil core, racist.
Somehow quaint customs have "value" and must be "respected" thus putting them on the same intellectual level as modern medicine, for example. This stupid thinking moves stories from the cultural anthropology section to science.
God forbid we offend people of color.
n.b. there was an article recently in the NYT on this very thing. In the effort of textbook publishers to not give offence things like Ojibaway creation myths are given equal time with Darwin and the black guy that invented a better filiment for light bulbs is given equal time with Edison.
While we are dumbing down our children and removing any capacity for critical thought I suspect that the various third world countries that are looking enviously at our wealth have no such scruples. As the saying goes, it is ours to loose.
n.b. again...I also saw a story in the Guardian(?) that outlined the new approach to teaching science. The notion is that science, per se is less important than it's social manifestations. WTF does that mean?
Mojo
19th May 2005, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by Ed
n.b. again...I also saw a story in the Guardian(?) that outlined the new approach to teaching science. The notion is that science, per se is less important than it's social manifestations. WTF does that mean? I suspect it means that people who don't really know anything about science are setting the agenda.
Blue Bubble
19th May 2005, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Darat
After seeing this post http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870907809#post1870907809 from Wudang I read the article s/he linked to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4559947.stm
If there are other UK (and of course non-UK) Members who feel as strongly as I do can I suggest they use the BBC's News feedback service (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3281777.stm) to make a compliant?
(Edited for formatting.)
I've added my disgust. It's totally despicable.
Mojo
19th May 2005, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by Ashles
Interesting pint.http://www.amgmedia.com/freephotos/beer_glass_small.jpg
Ed
19th May 2005, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Mojo
I suspect it means that people who don't really know anything about science are setting the agenda.
No, what it means is that science is hard and that the psychological trauma attendant with study of a difficult area can be lessened by talking about it rather than doing it.
Soapy Sam
19th May 2005, 06:25 AM
Hm. I suspect the researchers were not listening to what Mrs. Muzhange was telling them;-"With Aids-related ailments, if someone comes in the early stages I can help them."
She does not claim to cure HIV AIDS here, or even to treat it. She says herbal treatment from people who know the local herbs can help people in the early stages, by which I assume she means she can alleviate symptoms of the secondary problems caused by damage to the immune system.
I suspect Mrs. Muzhange is dead right- A lot of potentially useful knowledge of local plants is being lost. This is very regrettable.
Better if BBC reporters helped preserve the actual data , rather than exaggerating it into a mythical "African Medicine" and devaluing the real knowledge of women like this in the process.
Ashles
19th May 2005, 06:41 AM
I love the helpful remedies provided:
Coughs and colds
Take leaves from a guava tree and rub them by hand to bring out the juices.
Put in boiling water and add lemon peel for flavour.
Leave to stand for 30-40 minutes.
Drink half a glass of the warm mixture three to four times a day, 30 minutes before food.
Continue taking for one week, by which time the cough or cold should have gone.
Wow! It clears up a cough or cold in just a week? Amazing?
In some ways it is quite like Ashles' cure:
Drink plenty of fluid and eat.
Lie in bed watching Trisha and This Morning.
Moan to partner when she gets in about how ill you feel and she should bring some chocolate.
Continue for 5 days by which time the cough or cold should have gone.
My way is quicker. Maybe I should be a 'n'anga' (healer).
I wonder if ducks in Zimbabwe go "N'anga!"
Soapy Sam
19th May 2005, 07:21 AM
Probably as good as "Lemsip", though.
Nothing cures a cold. All anything does is ease the uncomforable symptoms. If the herbals stuff does that and costs a tenth what "lemsip" does, then it's worth trying.
If there actually is useful data on herbs among tribal culture in Africa (and it would be surprising if not) then we would be silly to let it get lost at this point.
That's not the same as hypothesising a complex and consistent African Traditional Medical Culture.
John Jackson
19th May 2005, 08:05 AM
I must print this out and place the note in the medicine cabinet:Nosebleeds
Take dry elephant dung from the bush.
If a nosebleed begins or if you feel one is about to start, burn a teaspoon-sized piece of the dung.
Inhale the smoke, taking deep breaths.
I think I'll drop them a line too ;) What a stupid article.
richardm
19th May 2005, 08:36 AM
In the past the BBC have been quite good at tweaking news stories that we (and no doubt others, no megalomania here) have complained about. So it's worth doing.
songstress
19th May 2005, 08:40 AM
Hi Sam,
You are right. Media people never get it right. They almost always misrepresent the facts of a story. This lady isn't claiming to cure anything.
I agree. Lots of ancient wisdom and knowledge is being lost.
Love,
Patsy.
xx
Matabiri
19th May 2005, 08:42 AM
I've also e-mailed them.
Originally posted by Ashles
I think he gets round this by atually living in Zimbabwe and having married a local:
Steve Vickers and the dowry (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3614248.stm)
Even more nerve-wracking was the fact that as the prospective husband, I was not allowed to play any part in the lobola negotiations - a process that is long and complicated.
[...]
The total to be paid on the day amounted to $500, just about the exact amount of cash that I had in my pocket.
This does all sound like, "let's all of us get together and figure out exactly how much we can fleece him for."
richardm
19th May 2005, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by songstress
This lady isn't claiming to cure anything.
How do you square that with quotes like:
It's absolutely priceless, it really works
and
"I've helped people with so many different diseases - backaches, nosebleeds, fertility problems, STDs, cancer, and even men who can't perform well in bed," said Ambuya Muzhange.
Ashles
19th May 2005, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Matabiri
This does all sound like, "let's all of us get together and figure out exactly how much we can fleece him for."
:D
It really does. It's like writing an article entitled "Look how much of a mug I am" (in fact you could title both of these articles the same).
Does he really think every prospective husband has to pay $500? I would imagine that is a huge amount of money over there.
"And now over to Steve Vickers, our credulous correspondant, who'll buy anything you say, often literally..."
Darat
19th May 2005, 09:29 AM
Just had a response from the BBC
Thank you for your email - the story is currently being reworked.
Regards
BBC News Website
http://news.bbc.co.uk/
Should be interesting to see what the "reworked" version looks like.
Darat
19th May 2005, 09:31 AM
Wow - what a change! I'm putting together a before and after table, I'll post it asap.
richardm
19th May 2005, 09:34 AM
I just got that same email. And have they changed it...?
Boodly hell! That is a pretty substantial rehash. Well done the BBC! I shall pay my licence fee while shaking only one fist at the heavens this year :D
Ashles
19th May 2005, 09:40 AM
I didn't get an e-mail. :(
I feel left out.
Still that is a pretty impressive example of the BBC respecting viewer input.
I will join richardm in single fist shaking this year (I really like that image :) )
(Edited to remove two sets of edits which negated each other.)
Ashles
19th May 2005, 09:45 AM
Double post.
Darat
19th May 2005, 10:27 AM
I'm going to try an use a table to do a side by side comparison of the two versions of the story if it screws up I'll try and edit it later.
<TABLE BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0>
<TR>
<TD VALIGN=TOP ALIGN=LEFT >
<TABLE VALIGN=TOP ALIGN=LEFT BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP>
<TABLE WIDTH=100% HEIGHT=100% BORDER=1 CELLPADDING=0 CELLSPACING=1>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP BGCOLOR="#000000" HEIGHT=24>
<FONT size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Arial">Original Text</FONT></P></TD>
<TD ALIGN=CENTER VALIGN=TOP BGCOLOR="#000000" HEIGHT=24>
<FONT size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Arial">Reworked Text</FONT></P></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP WIDTH=432 >
<FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">Trying to save Zimbabwe's healers
By Steve Vickers
BBC News, Harare
Although the value of African traditional medicine is becoming increasingly respected around the world, there are fears that the level of knowledge of the art is dwindling on the continent.
Africa is endowed with a host of herbs and plants that, properly used, can treat a huge range of ailments.
As more and more Africans adopt urban lifestyles, the interest and enthusiasm for traditional medicine seems to be declining, and many now prefer the pills of Western medicine.
I accompanied Ambuya Jessie Muzhange, an expert herbalist, to a bushy area on the outskirts of Harare.
Digging for roots and searching for different plants that have medicinal properties is an arduous task, requiring a great deal of skill.
Ambuya Muzhange, in her 70s, picked out leaves, branches and roots that most of us would not have even noticed were there.
Eight of her children are still alive, and only one of them has a reasonable level of knowledge of traditional medicine.
'Confusing'
</FONT><FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="MS Mincho">
</FONT><FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">The art is passed on by walking in the bush with an expert on an almost daily basis, and most of her children live in the cities and are too busy for this.
"I've helped people with so many different diseases - backaches, nosebleeds, fertility problems, STDs, cancer, and even men who can't perform well in bed," said Ambuya Muzhange.
"With Aids-related ailments, if someone comes in the early stages I can help them."
"Most of my children find traditional medicine confusing, because it can be very difficult to distinguish the plants and to know their different uses."
Many Zimbabweans do appreciate the benefits of traditional medicine, particularly as it is far cheaper than visiting the doctor.
But there is no sign of medical schools incorporating the traditional approach to the Western-style medicine that they teach.
'Priceless'
"The problem with traditional medicine is that there are no prescribed dosages," said Obey Mawire, a final year medical student in Harare.
"We don't know all of the side-effects, and it needs purification, but there could be new discoveries if we incorporate traditional with modern medicine."
"But I don't see a situation where I'll be using traditional medicine when I become a general practitioner."
But in the Western world, there is a growing interest in traditional medicine from Africa and the Far East.
As well as being a psychotherapist, Geraldine Kocroft is a fully-fledged traditional healer or n'anga.
She is currently working on a book documenting the benefits of traditional medicine.
"It's absolutely priceless, it really works, and God has given it to us, but unfortunately I feel it's a slowly dying art," she said.
"We're losing certain aspects of it, although we might gain some more."
Another reason for the decline is that it can be a secretive art, and knowledge is often not passed between herbalists and traditional healers.
"People tend not to want to share, sometimes they feel that they've been exploited."
A high level of skill is certainly needed to use the traditional medicines that the continent has been blessed with.
Who knows what remedies are yet to be discovered, if the dying art can be kept alive?
Traditional Zimbabwean remedies for common ailments:
Coughs and colds
Take leaves from a guava tree and rub them by hand to bring out the juices.
Put in boiling water and add lemon peel for flavour.
Leave to stand for 30-40 minutes.
Drink half a glass of the warm mixture three to four times a day, 30 minutes before food.
Continue taking for one week, by which time the cough or cold should have gone.
Nosebleeds
Take dry elephant dung from the bush.
If a nosebleed begins or if you feel one is about to start, burn a teaspoon-sized piece of the dung.
Inhale the smoke, taking deep breaths.
Ear infection
Take three or four grains of fresh maize and pound them.
Put the crushed maize on a clean cloth or handkerchief, tie it, and squeeze hard until juice comes out.
Put two drops of the juice in the infected ear.
</FONT><FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="MS Mincho">
</FONT><FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/africa/4559947.stm
Published: 2005/05/19 07:01:01 GMT
© BBC MMV</FONT></P></TD>
<TD ALIGN=LEFT VALIGN=TOP WIDTH=432 >
<FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">Trying to save Zimbabwe's healers
By Steve Vickers
BBC News, Harare
Although the value of some herbs used in traditional African medicine is becoming increasingly talked about around the world, there are fears that the level of knowledge of the art is dwindling on the continent.
As more and more Africans adopt urban lifestyles, the interest and enthusiasm for traditional medicine seems to be declining, and many now prefer the pills of Western medicine.
I accompanied Ambuya Jessie Muzhange, an expert herbalist, to a bushy area on the outskirts of Harare.
Digging for roots and searching for different plants that have medicinal properties is an arduous task, requiring a great deal of skill.
Ambuya Muzhange, in her 70s, picked out leaves, branches and roots that most of us would not have even noticed were there.
Eight of her children are still alive, and only one of them has a reasonable level of knowledge of traditional medicine.
'Confusing'
</FONT><FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="MS Mincho">
</FONT><FONT size="3" color="#000000" face="Times New Roman">The art is passed on by walking in the bush with an expert on an almost daily basis, and most of her children live in the cities and are too busy for this.
"I've helped people with so many different diseases - backaches, nosebleeds, fertility problems, STDs, cancer, and even men who can't perform well in bed," claims Ambuya Muzhange.
"Most of my children find traditional medicine confusing, because it can be very difficult to distinguish the plants and to know their different uses."
The biggest problem with traditional medicine is a lack of quality-control - it is hard to know who is a genuine herbalist who has studied the powers of local plants and who is a charlatan out to make a quick buck.
But many Zimbabweans do appreciate the benefits of traditional medicine, particularly as it is far cheaper than visiting the doctor.
Some western-trained medics appreciate that some herbs may have some benefit but evidence supporting traditional remedies is sparse and medical schools show no sign of incorporating the traditional approach to what they teach.
'Priceless'
"The problem with traditional medicine is that there are no prescribed dosages," said Obey Mawire, a final year medical student in Harare.
"We don't know all of the side-effects, and it needs purification, but there could be new discoveries if we incorporate traditional with modern medicine."
"But I don't see a situation where I'll be using traditional medicine when I become a general practitioner."
But in the Western world, there is a growing interest in traditional medicine from Africa and the Far East.
As well as being a psychotherapist, Geraldine Kocroft is a fully-fledged traditional healer or n'anga.
She is currently working on a book documenting the benefits of traditional medicine and does not sure the doubts of many western medics.
"It's absolutely priceless, it really works, and God has given it to us, but unfortunately I feel it's a slowly dying art," she said.
"We're losing certain aspects of it, although we might gain some more."
Critics, of course, say that traditional medicine is dying out because there are so many conmen around and there is not enough scientific proof that the cures are effective.
Another reason for the decline is that it can be a secretive art, and knowledge is often not passed between herbalists and traditional healers.
"People tend not to want to share, sometimes they feel that they've been exploited."
A high level of skill is certainly needed to use the traditional medicines that the continent has been blessed with.
Who knows what remedies are yet to be discovered, if the dying art can be kept alive?
Traditional Zimbabwean remedies for common ailments:
Coughs and colds
Take leaves from a guava tree and rub them by hand to bring out the juices.
Put in boiling water and add lemon peel for flavour.
Leave to stand for 30-40 minutes.
Drink half a glass of the warm mixture three to four times a day, 30 minutes before food.
Continue taking for one week, by which time the cough or cold should have gone.
Nosebleeds
Take dry elephant dung from the bush.
If a nosebleed begins or if you feel one is about to start, burn a teaspoon-sized piece of the dung.
Inhale the smoke, taking deep breaths.
Ear infection
Take three or four grains of fresh maize and pound them.
Put the crushed maize on a clean cloth or handkerchief, tie it, and squeeze hard until juice comes out.
Put two drops of the juice in the infected ear.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/africa/4559947.stm
Published: 2005/05/19 07:01:01 GMT
© BBC MMV</FONT></P></TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</TD>
</TR></TABLE></TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
Jim Lennox
23rd May 2005, 01:29 PM
Darat, You are the Man!
I think we need some more co-ordination of e-mails like this so that we can be a bit more of a campaign.
Dr Adequate
24th May 2005, 09:11 AM
Some western-trained medics appreciate that some herbs may have some benefit but evidence supporting traditional remedies is sparse and medical schools show no sign of incorporating the traditional approach to what they teach. But this is complete rubbish. Here's what I'd have written.Of the 119 pure pharmaceutical compounds in use, 88 were discovered through leads from traditional medicine*. The pharmacoepia of what we call "Western" medicine is founded firmly on traditional knowledge, so obviously pharmaceutical companies are fighting hand over fist to be the first to validate traditional techniques, because they know where the big bucks are.
* Source: E. O. Wilson, The diversity of life (1992). My version has the advantage of not being fatuous nonsense.
But the media wishes to portray a battle between science and herbal medicine, rather than between medicine which has been tested and medicine which hasn't.
To whom should I complain?
(I was going to at the time, but my computer crahed. It seems a little late now.)
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