Are you here for converts?

[The GM]

Maybe I should make this a poll. But here's the question. Other than a few notable exceptions, (Zaayrdragon and Kitty Chan instantly come to mind) our fellow posters of faith do not participate in each other's threads. For instance, you never see Riddick calling Icchius(sp, sorry man!) to the carpet or something similiar. At times, it feels very much like the faithful vs the faithless, and even though the faithful may not agree w/ each other's philosophies, they leave each other alone prefering to talk to the faithless instead.
Is it just me, or is this a pretty accurate observation of what happens here in R&P?

[apoger]

That's a fairly accurate assessment.

I suspect that the faithful prefer not to think about the multitude of other faith based alternatives, as the concept that there are numerous equally vaild "faiths" is very threatning.

[jmercer]

Well, if you don't mind, I think I'll raise my eyebrow a bit here. I post in a lot of these threads... :)

Of course, I'm not here to convert anyone to anything. :D

[The GM]

Originally posted by jmercer
Well, if you don't mind, I think I'll raise my eyebrow a bit here. I post in a lot of these threads... :)

Well, as do I. :)
However, I do tend to keep my beliefs to myself. Not because I'm ashamed of them, but they just don't seem relevant most of the time.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by The GM
Well, as do I. :)
However, I do tend to keep my beliefs to myself. Not because I'm ashamed of them, but they just don't seem relevant most of the time.

Yep, there's that. :)

Plus truthfully, I'm more interesting in understanding where the other person's coming from than promoting my own beliefs. Heretical or not, as far as I'm concerned, all religions are equally valid (or invalid, depending on one's POV. :))

[jmercer]

All right - I've been thinking this for some time now, so I might as well put it here out in the open. (Not that it's anything particularly astonishing or anything)

I believe a lot of the more vocal pro-religion writers are trolls and/or socks... or both. In example, you never see Jambo and 1inChrist get into it in a thread, or even so much as post in the same thread.

Same goes for some of the others, particuarly the "hit and runs" that show up from time to time. I think that's a part of your answer right there. :)

[Marquis de Carabas]

I think it's accurate, and, unfortunately, not very surprising. Believers often view other believers as misguided but well-intentioned, whereas non-believers are evil or just plain ornery. This is a generalisation, of course, and there are many exceptions.

For my own part, I remember as a child getting the distinct impression that there was a hierarchy in the world that went something like this (I was raised southern baptist):

Southern Baptists
Other Baptists
Other non-Catholic Christians
Catholics
Other monotheists
Other theists
Atheists, Agnostics, etc.

Of course, the official belief was more akin to--

Southern Baptists
The Hellbound

--but it seemed the farther down the first list you were, the more likely you were to draw fire from the church.

[farmermike]

Could it be because that depending on ones frame of mind,what is god can change and also be quite different from someone elses god,leading to a variety of faith based explanations.Could be just a matter of letting someone else handle it.

[Iacchus]

I am not here to "rip" into religion ... just to present my own perspective. Which, is really all any of us can do.

[El Greco]

Let's say believers are castle defenders whose beliefs are being attacked by the battering ram of skepticism. Now, imagine two castles which are far away from each other (as often happens with the philosophies of believers). There's no attacking or defending potential in that topology. The only thing they can do is send carrier pigeons to each other.

[jmercer]

Originally posted by farmermike
Could it be because that depending on ones frame of mind,what is god can change and also be quite different from someone elses god,leading to a variety of faith based explanations.Could be just a matter of letting someone else handle it.

FarmerMike - in some cases - probably, in fact, for the "silent majority" - I think you may be right. There's something else contributing to this, too, I believe.

Early on when I joined the forums, I got involved in a thread where I revealed I was Catholic. Now, it turned out to be a VERY civil thread, and I couldn't have gotten a more positive impression of the major posters here because of it. :) At the time, however, it was probably one of the most nervous things I've done on the Internet - especially considering the environment I chose to do it in.

There is a significant factor of intimidation in the forums concerning some subjects... and religion is very much one of those, methinks. :)

[jmercer]

Originally posted by El Greco
Let's say believers are castle defenders whose beliefs are being attacked by the battering ram of skepticism. Now, imagine two castles which are far away from each other (as often happens with the philosophies of believers). There's no attacking or defending potential in that topology. The only thing they can do is send carrier pigeons to each other.

Good point. :)

From my perspective, I simply don't feel I have the right (or the knowledge) to say to anyone "I'm right and you're wrong" about religion and God. (And that includes atheists and agnostics - for all I know, they're right.)

I have to say I've gotten a much better education on religion here at JREF than any other source or place I've had access to in the past... and that "broadening" has only increased my feelings about only challenging others beliefs if I'm willing to challenge my own. (Which I am, and I do, regularly. :))

[The GM]

Originally posted by jmercer
Good point. :)

From my perspective, I simply don't feel I have the right (or the knowledge) to say to anyone "I'm right and you're wrong" about religion and God. (And that includes atheists and agnostics - for all I know, they're right.)

I have to say I've gotten a much better education on religion here at JREF than any other source or place I've had access to in the past... and that "broadening" has only increased my feelings about only challenging others beliefs if I'm willing to challenge my own. (Which I am, and I do, regularly. :))

I'll give you a hearty amen to that...but you're still going to Hell.
Just kiddin'. I have no idea if you will or won't. Maybe you'll go to puppy land. Who knows?

[jmercer]

Puppy land? Nah. If I'm not going to the Christian heaven, I at least want to go to the Muslim version...


The other main attraction in Muslim heaven is the unlimited sexual pleasures. Moshay quotes one Hadith (official Muslim tradition) that says, "The lowliest of the inhabitants of paradise will be he who has eighty thousand servants, seventy-two wives..." The Koran speaks of virgin maidens who will be enjoyed by men with enhanced sexual stamina.


:D

[geni]

Same reason you don't get many termination reactions going on at the start of a free radical polyimerisation.

[Z]

What Geni said.


???


Well, it seems to me that anytime Iacchus and lifegazer end up in the same thread, it either drives everyone else batty or away.

Ian, of course, is too certain of his own correctness to bother participating in another believer's threads.

And, of course, there's no point in preaching to those who have their minds made up... only to those who might still be reached, you know, like all those idiot Atheists... :D

[The GM]

So Zaayr,
Out of curiousity, (damned curiousity!) what would you say to someone who you wanted to join your church/coven/temple/I'm not trying to be an ass, I just don't know what it's called/group?

[Odin]

I want to see Jambo and 1inchrist post in the same thread.
(Its happened before but Jambo left and 1inch took over. I mean at the same time.)

[Z]

Originally posted by The GM
So Zaayr,
Out of curiousity, (damned curiousity!) what would you say to someone who you wanted to join your church/coven/temple/I'm not trying to be an ass, I just don't know what it's called/group?

In our case, it's called a Temple. In other cases, it's called a coven, or a group, or a temple, or a dozen other names... but our Tradition calls it a Temple.

If they wanted to join, I'd schedule a time to meet my wife (the priestess); we'd talk over beliefs, etc.; I'd arrange for them to observe and/or participate in a ritual; and at each and every step, let them understand that not every group is right for a particular person. Each person must find his/her own path to Deity, whatever path that may (or may not) be.

Since our group only takes dues on an entirely voluntary basis, and we sell nothing, and we demand nothing, I don't feel at all bad about our temple. Our few restrictions on behaviour amount to, "Don't deliberately cause harm to yourself or others," and "Don't try to tell other people what to think or believe."

That's about the long and short of it.

[The GM]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Our few restrictions on behaviour amount to, "Don't deliberately cause harm to yourself or others," and "Don't try to tell other people what to think or believe."

That's about the long and short of it.

thats a religion i could actually live w/.

[Mercutio]

Ok, I admit it. I am here for converts.

And it is working...well...at least better than either Iacchus or Lifegazer.

Merc...turning the world to behaviorism, one skeptic at a time...

[Kiless]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Merc...turning the world to behaviorism, one skeptic at a time...

Where? I don't see that thread.

[The GM]

Originally posted by Mercutio
turning the world to behaviorism, one skeptic at a time...

i don't know what it means, but i like it.:D
i think i'll turn in now.:D :D

[Kiless]

This thread made me think of this:

I recently had a conversation with HR about hiring practices, as a young person I know wanted information about working in a private school.

HR's response was that as long as you support the ‘objectives and ethos’, of the College they don’t care. JUST DON’T TELL them that you’re (say) a Scientologist / Wiccan / Agnostic / Atheist / worshipper of linoleum floors, as in some rare cases, it could actually hurt your employability. An applicant apparently said he was a Christadelphian and they blanched and said fine… but what does that entail, exactly? Apparently it meant he felt he had to actively RECRUIT for his religion. Amongst people, including students, in the school.

No. Wasn't hired.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Kiless
Where? I don't see that thread. I am far, far too modest to boast.


So I will not link any of the numerous threads in which I am adored by my followers...


ok, time to put the glass down slowly and head off to bed...

[Kiless]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I am far, far too modest to boast.
So I will not link any of the numerous threads in which I am adored by my followers...

Pleh. I'm not searching for your modesty. If it ever existed. :p Time to log off and get back to herding Year 9s off a cliff face like lemmings....

[clarsct]

Originally posted by Kiless
This thread made me think of this:

I recently had a conversation with HR about hiring practices, as a young person I know wanted information about working in a private school.

HR's response was that as long as you support the ‘objectives and ethos’, of the College they don’t care. JUST DON’T TELL them that you’re (say) a Scientologist / Wiccan / Agnostic / Atheist / worshipper of linoleum floors, as in some rare cases, it could actually hurt your employability. An applicant apparently said he was a Christadelphian and they blanched and said fine… but what does that entail, exactly? Apparently it meant he felt he had to actively RECRUIT for his religion. Amongst people, including students, in the school.

No. Wasn't hired.
Italics mine

Thanks..I now have another group on my list of 'Greet at Door with Shotgun'

Put it right next to the Jehovah's Witnesses....

[arthwollipot]

This thread made me think of a quote that everyone seems to know only half of. I don't know who Stephen Roberts is, but he said:

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Personally I think it is the last sentence that is the most important part, but everyone seems to just quote the first two.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Ok, I admit it. I am here for converts.

And it is working...well...at least better than either Iacchus or Lifegazer.

Merc...turning the world to behaviorism, one skeptic at a time... Prove it when you're dead. ;)

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I am far, far too modest to boast.

So I will not link any of the numerous threads in which I am adored by my followers...

ok, time to put the glass down slowly and head off to bed... If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a thread called, The Great Mercutio? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35318) :D

[Flo]

Originally posted by The GM
Maybe I should make this a poll. But here's the question. Other than a few notable exceptions, (Zaayrdragon and Kitty Chan instantly come to mind) our fellow posters of faith do not participate in each other's threads. For instance, you never see Riddick calling Icchius(sp, sorry man!) to the carpet or something similiar. At times, it feels very much like the faithful vs the faithless, and even though the faithful may not agree w/ each other's philosophies, they leave each other alone prefering to talk to the faithless instead.
Is it just me, or is this a pretty accurate observation of what happens here in R&P?


The "faithful vs the faithless" match doesn't just concern religion. Most "extreme" believers (credophiles, woo-woos), whatever variety of invisible pink unicorn they believe in, view skeptics, rationalists and other unbelievers exactly like a bunch of drunks in a bar view the police arriving to stop a fight: they will most of the time put their differences aside and band on the police.

Similarly, you can see religions that are usually at war with each others (think Russian orthodoxy and the Vatican, for example) suddenly sharing the same bed and allying their forces with yet another of their "hereditary ennemy" (e.g. Muslims) against "science" or some government whose measures are seen as an obstacle to religion's influence.

[Dr Adequate]

Yes, I am here for converts.

ALL must follow SATANIC REASON AND LOGIC!!!

BWAHAHAHAHA!

[Kiless]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a thread called, The Great Mercutio? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35318) :D

But none for Iacchus, I've noticed. :rolleyes:

[stamenflicker]

Well, since exiting college 10 years ago, I've found it difficult to find many people willing to discuss religion and philosophy and even more difficult to find folks discussing in a way that honors each other's perspectives. On top of that, I am a person who believe that faith and doubt are inversely related, meaning that the depth of a person's doubt typically parallels the height of their faith. So in other words, I don't want to believe something just because I was afraid to doubt it. I like to see the whole mental / spiritual graph if you will.

Flick

[Gestahl]

Originally posted by The GM
At times, it feels very much like the faithful vs the faithless, and even though the faithful may not agree w/ each other's philosophies, they leave each other alone prefering to talk to the faithless instead.
Is it just me, or is this a pretty accurate observation of what happens here in R&P?

Well, I would perceive, were I on the religious "side", that fighting amongst ourselves would not help the cause in the least of presenting and defending our viewpoint. Secondly, why would they need to support each other? If both are convinced they are fundamentally right and that the words speak for themselves, why need to post together?

[Iacchus]

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. There is only one God in essence. In practice, there are billions ... Why is that so hard to accept? There's only one reality isn't there? Yet each of us perceives of that reality differently. And yes, there will continue to be those who remind us how much bigger their dog (God?) is than ours. ;)

Obviously for someone to make a statement such as this, they didn't take much time to think it through.

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Obviously for someone to make a statement such as this, they didn't take much time to think it through. I assume this comment refers to the previous paragraph in your post. The only way you can make the claim you do there is by ignoring the descriptions of the individual gods you claim are all one. But then, I am sure you are convinced that you know these gods better than the people who <s>invented</s>,er, worship them. Why would any god make a commandment to put no other gods before him, when in his omniscience he knows they are all different aspects of himself?

[Mercutio]

Originally posted by Iacchus
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't there a thread called, The Great Mercutio? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35318) :D Actually, that was not one of the ones I was thinking of...

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Actually, that was not one of the ones I was thinking of...

And, as he said, he didn't link to it. You did.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Mercutio
Why would any god make a commandment to put no other gods before him, when in his omniscience he knows they are all different aspects of himself? How does one distinguish the parts from the whole and not acknowledge the whole? Evidently there must be a sense of protocol involved.

[Z]

In response to the Thread Title, let me quote one of my favorite lines from Ever After:

"I'm just here for the food."

[The GM]

Originally posted by The GM
i don't know what it means, but i like it.:D
i think i'll turn in now.:D :D


Um...I don't know what this post means, but it's a perfect example of why friends don't let friends post drunk. Sorry 'bout that. My father in law and I were celebrating last night. According to family onlookers, it got out of hand.:o
:D

[c4ts]

I don't see any collaboration, to be honest, but I don't always know who is exactly what particular faith. I have seen things like Lifegazer and 1andC argue with each other, for example, and I think they are both Christians.

[Kitty Chan]

Im taking a break from cleaning my rec room for my guests.

GM thought Id respond, dont want anyone to think Im chicken, just kitten oh its getting too late to clean a bathroom.

Anyway you are right there are some that dont talk to each other. Ive yacked previously with Iacchus since hes such a good example :) Im trying to talk to Lifegazer but I cant follow those conversations for the most part but Im trying. (your doing well)

So sometimes its just a kind of practical reason. I like Randi hes partly responsible for getting me unhooked from believing in pretty much everything from ufos to big foot. Thats why I came initially, but I stayed for the coffee.

I take seriously what the bible says about being able to answer why you believe as you do. So the questions tend to be challanging like Flick said.

As for converts, it isnt my area, I cannot convert anyone nor can anyone else for that matter, to the christian God. I just like to clear up misunderstandings.

So that even if one doesnt agree at least they are not going off hearsay and prejudiced views. If I understand someone, Im gonna be able to see them rather than the view society has told me Im to see.

Just like to know the ingredients rather than the label. :D