Art imitating life?

[Kashyapa]

Try this one on for size.

An unelected and charismatic ruler, having gained power in uncertain and murky circumstances, rules a people convulsed by delusion and fear. Continual war abroad and the constant threat of attack at home create an atmosphere of poisonous hatred and distrust, manipulated by government media and the organs of the regime. Misleadingly named ministries comprise a government whose control is out of the hands of the people. The peoples' will and free thought are actively discouraged by the government, who calls them criminals and unpatriotic for straying from the party line. Government control pervades almost every aspect of life- citizens are spied upon by their own neighbors, by electronic devices. Fear of persecution and outside attack, liberally encouraged by government propaganda, force the people to mindlessly support the government and the diseased society. A huge segment of the population is uneducated, credulous, and malleable, unthinking and distracted by their diversions and passtimes of the moment. Jingoism, mindless aggression, an atmosphere of persecution, and a poisonous overarching ideology have turned a formerly healthy and prosperous culture into a festering waste.

I'm not describing the plot of Orwell's 1984. I'm talking about right now. The description applies to both. This scares the living s--t out of me, as it should any thinking person. We're not living in 1984 yet- perhaps an amalgam of Brave New World and 1984? I realize that dissent is still possible, and that society hasn't been completely overwhelmed yet. But my point is to show a disturbing trend. We're not past the point of no return, and there is much that is beautiful, still, about our culture. I am still free to question it, and I am still able to see the poison. It's not all of our culture yet, and I still have a great deal of hope. I think that 1984 still serves as a very pertinent and sharp warning to us, and I think that every day Bush II is in office, we're sliding closer to that fictional world.

[Ladyhawk]

1984? This has been going on since the beginning of time. "mindless aggression, atmosphere of persecution, poisonous overarching ideology" have been around forever. And, as for the "formerly healthy and prosperous culture" which culture are you referring to?

I'm not trying to make light of your sentiment, but, that's all it really is...sentiment. I hardly believe that the U.S. is a 'festering waste' and the fact that you can freely voice your opinion, on this forum or in the streets of New York, is testimony to the fact that freedom is NOT a right. It's a privilege, and unfortunately, we often have to fight for that privilege. Whether the war on Iraq is justified or not, dissension will always exist. Look at how we subcatgorize ourselves in every day life. In our 'formerly healthy...culture', we've created silos for black, white, male, female, Jew, Catholic, short, tall, thin, fat, Democrat, Republican, bottle feeder or breast feeder...the list goes on. Question it? Certainly, we all should. Change it? I'd like to think we're trying.

As for the sentiment that GW is pushing us closer to 'that fictional world', let me say that he certainly isn't alone. Saddam and Bin Laden have done far more to stir up an 'uneducated, credulous ...malleable..unthinking...segment of the population" than GW ever has.

Just my thoughts....

;)

[Kashyapa]

I agree- we're not there yet, and I don't think we're in any great danger. Our culture is festering in some areas and flourishing in others. My intention with this post was to draw attention to what's festering, because I think that far too often it's not recognized as such. I think our government is making some extraordinarily bad choices, has some horrible policies, and does not wholly represent the ideals of the founders, the Constitution, and true morality. And I think that a significant portion of our culture is not healthy or conducive to happiness, compassion, and independent thought.

I was in sort of a pessimistic mood when I wrote this, but I've had my morning Joe now. I shouldn't have generalized so much. And your point that this condition has been endemic in human history is certainly accurate. It's certainly not just now. Orwell's message holds true for all time.

[WMT1]

Originally posted by LadyHawk
the fact that you can freely voice your opinion, on this forum or in the streets of New York, is testimony to the fact that freedom is NOT a right.

Not only do I strongly disagree with your conclusion, but how the hell does what you describe qualify as "testimony" to it? As nearly as I can tell, all that ability demonstrates is that we happen to find ourselves in a society which, to a large degree, recognizes that right.

[WMT1]

Originally posted by Kashyapa
I think our government is making some extraordinarily bad choices, has some horrible policies, and does not wholly represent the ideals of the founders, the Constitution, and true morality.

Sorry, can't let this one pass. What the hell is "true morality"???

[Kashyapa]

Compassion, mostly. Sorry, I hate the phrase true morality...shouldn't have used it. I don't believe that our government uses wisdom and compassion in its dealings.

[Ladyhawk]

Originally posted by WMT1


Not only do I strongly disagree with your conclusion, but how the hell does what you describe qualify as "testimony" to it? As nearly as I can tell, all that ability demonstrates is that we happen to find ourselves in a society which, to a large degree, recognizes that right.

My point is that Iraq is an example of a civilization wherein freedom of speech is a crime punishable by death. Therefore, it is not an absolute right. I'm not arguing that it should be. I'm merely stating that it is a privilege in that it is not automatically granted and is one that is usually won at a high cost. Maintaining that privilege is one we fight for every day, even in the U.S. Look at the cases that come before the Supreme Court with regard to protest, freedom of expression, etc. My reference to "testimony" is using Kash's post as an example. We can post whatever our sentiments about this war, the state of the economy or politics in general without having to worry whether we will be beheaded in front of our family. I think your disagreement with me may be over semantics (?) :confused:

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Kashyapa
Compassion, mostly. Sorry, I hate the phrase true morality...shouldn't have used it. I don't believe that our government uses wisdom and compassion in its dealings.

By the end result of any political process, what is the chance wisdom & compassion survived?

Go watch 'em make the hotdog you intend to eat for lunch. ;)


What continues to amaze me is that our squabbling republic ever gets anything done.

[Kashyapa]

Well, you know the old saw: scratch a cynic and you'll find an embittered idealist. Ouch!

The most healthy society I've ever seen was the !Kung San "bushmen" of southern Africa, and other aboriginals like them. That's where our minds developed, and I think that the only truly healthy societies are those that hew closest to our roots. I think that the start of "civilization" was the beginning of our swan song. But now we're getting into my truly radical views. :D

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Kashyapa
Well, you know the old saw: scratch a cynic and you'll find an embittered idealist. Ouch!

The most healthy society I've ever seen was the !Kung San "bushmen" of southern Africa, and other aboriginals like them. That's where our minds developed, and I think that the only truly healthy societies are those that hew closest to our roots. I think that the start of "civilization" was the beginning of our swan song. But now we're getting into my truly radical views. :D

The bushmen of the Kalahari may have an ideal society that works well with small, unincorporated hunter-gatherers, but I don't see how it applies to larger societies. They may not have a concept of ownership, but how is that supposed to function in a city of two million? Our minds may have developed there, but evolution continues.

Then again, I'm the embittered idealist, I guess, and not so much a cynic as a pragmatist :cool:

[WMT1]

Originally posted by Kashyapa
Compassion, mostly. Sorry, I hate the phrase true morality...shouldn't have used it.

Sorry if I overreacted. That's just one of those expressions that raises red flags with me. Looks like that wasn't warranted in this case.

[WMT1]

Originally posted by LadyHawk
My point is that Iraq is an example of a civilization wherein freedom of speech is a crime punishable by death. Therefore, it is not an absolute right. I'm not arguing that it should be. I'm merely stating that it is a privilege in that it is not automatically granted and is one that is usually won at a high cost. Maintaining that privilege is one we fight for every day, even in the U.S. Look at the cases that come before the Supreme Court with regard to protest, freedom of expression, etc. My reference to "testimony" is using Kash's post as an example. We can post whatever our sentiments about this war, the state of the economy or politics in general without having to worry whether we will be beheaded in front of our family. I think your disagreement with me may be over semantics (?) :confused:

Probably so. You appear to be using the term "right" to describe what I'd refer to as the ability to exercise a right. From my perspective, Iraqis have as much of a right to freedom of expression as anyone else, whether they've been allowed to exercise it or not.

[Kashyapa]

Originally posted by Melissa Johnson


The bushmen of the Kalahari may have an ideal society that works well with small, unincorporated hunter-gatherers, but I don't see how it applies to larger societies. They may not have a concept of ownership, but how is that supposed to function in a city of two million? Our minds may have developed there, but evolution continues.

Then again, I'm the embittered idealist, I guess, and not so much a cynic as a pragmatist :cool:

What i'm getting at is that larger societies are a complete mistake and lead to nothing but strife and alienation and turmoil. That lifestyle sounds like a hell of a lot better than mine. Besides, they get to wear loincloths. That's reason enough for their societal superiority. (Joking...kind of.)

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Kashyapa
What i'm getting at is that larger societies are a complete mistake and lead to nothing but strife and alienation and turmoil. That lifestyle sounds like a hell of a lot better than mine. Besides, they get to wear loincloths. That's reason enough for their societal superiority. (Joking...kind of.)

Usually I'm a lurker. Today I'm feeling sparky. With that warning:

I do get what you're saying and on a certain level I agree--what little I do know about bushmen tells me they do have a successful society--it's lasted this long! I just don't see how it applies to reality. We can't reverse what we have now and I don't agree that we are at the 'swan song' of civilization, regardless of certain upheavals of the moment. I'd say we passed that mark in the Dark Ages. If anything, we're on the brink of a new era of unprecedented human growth and discovery. Is the glass half-empty, half-full--or is it broken?? And I'm no naif optimist, either. We have better medicine, science, and understanding of humanity now than ever before: the issue is applying this knowledge in a useful and compassionate fashion. We're doing it, too.

The bushmen may be better off living uncomplicated lives, I grant you that. They also look better in loincloths than most of us westerners would :) But if they had the choice to leave the desert, the opportunity to expand their knowledge of the universe, would they? My guess is, some have, if they are free to make that choice.

You may think that you are living in a protofascist Orwellian society, or else the nascent growth of one. I'd encourage you to take a step back and consider that statement. I can't engage in a repub-vs-demo argument in this limited forum, and I won't--I'd rather consider myself a libertarian, anyway. But whatever critiscisms you have about the government, you (and all of us) still have the power to change it. Bush isn't President-for-life and I doubt he could make himself so even if he wanted to. Stay involved. Speak your opinion. If we all curl up and quiver about Big Brother or the apathy of the masses, it will eventually become true.

But it isn't today.

[Kashyapa]

You know, you're actually damn right. Absolutely, and bravo. Blame my pessimism on sleepiness and grouchiness at about 6 this morning, before I had my coffee. It's easy for me to slide into that if I let myself. I would say we're at a cusp, and forces are balanced. Expansion of human thought is proceeding at the same rate that it's being limited and confined. What's left is for those of us who believe and want something better than 1984 to actively fight to up the gestalt vibe, think new thoughts, be happy, fight the tide of ignorance and dullness with intelligence and creativity.

And, I'll have you know, I'd look damn good in a loincloth. Uh...well....maybe not. :D

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Kashyapa
You know, you're actually damn right. Absolutely, and bravo. Blame my pessimism on sleepiness and grouchiness at about 6 this morning, before I had my coffee. It's easy for me to slide into that if I let myself. I would say we're at a cusp, and forces are balanced. Expansion of human thought is proceeding at the same rate that it's being limited and confined. What's left is for those of us who believe and want something better than 1984 to actively fight to up the gestalt vibe, think new thoughts, be happy, fight the tide of ignorance and dullness with intelligence and creativity.

YEAH! And blame my loquaciousness on extra caffiene and waking up to seeing the statue of Saddam take a face-plant. And you actually made my thinking muscle work some--it was getting flabby. Go me! :D

Well--loincloths--speak fer yerself. I'm so white I'd glow in the dark (I do live in the land-without-sun, you know), and from what I've seen of bushmen, they have 0% body fat. I'm no fatty, but I'm not exactly Ironwoman, either. Self-consciousness prevails!
(I gotta switch to decaf sometime. Might be a novel experience).

[Skeptic]

You have a point, but I am reminded of a quote by Bismark: those who like peace and sausages would sleep better not knowing how both are made.

[Kashyapa]

Originally posted by Skeptic
You have a point, but I am reminded of a quote by Bismark: those who like peace and sausages would sleep better not knowing how both are made.

I see you're one of those "war is the only way to peace" types, as if you can simply subjugate the world into order. Bismarck was a bloody-minded tyrant.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Kashyapa


I see you're one of those "war is the only way to peace" types, as if you can simply subjugate the world into order. Bismarck was a bloody-minded tyrant.

Um, doesn't some zen saying have something to do with smiting an evildoer with all the loving-kindness one possesses?

You can't always fix things with diplomacy in our unfortunately real world. :(

[Kashyapa]

I'm fairly certain that the "smiting" part is metaphorical. :D

I'm not sure that statement would necessarily be Zen. Evil is a dualistic concept that doesn't really have any meaning outside our own minds. However, I'm really nitpicking now.

Sorry if my last post was combative- no offense intended.

[Smalso]

by Ladyhawk:freedom is NOT a right.

Sorry, I can't let that one pass. Would you care to explain, please?

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Kashyapa
I'm fairly certain that the "smiting" part is metaphorical. :D



Umm, for a damsel in distress scenario (you as the hero), not at all metaphorical.

To save your own hide from the brigand, each man can make his own choice as circumstances dictate, huh? :D


Aside to Smalso, freedom is taken, and held, by force of will and weapons. :eek:

It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair (absolute genius) Lewis.

:D

[Smalso]

by hammegk:What continues to amaze me is that our squabbling republic ever gets anything done.

Not only amazing, but sometimes a downright miracle. Drew Pearson the columnist, not the football player) once wrote that what amazed him was that, in the congress, the right thing always seems to get done for the wrong reason.