How long before the statue topples?

[Denise]

Any guesses?

[Always Free]

Originally posted by Denise
Any guesses?

You would like one of those tanks to take a line on it but if it missed---yikes!!

[Denise]

I hope no one gets crushed by it when they yank it down.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by Denise
Any guesses?

lol

JK

[Denise]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


lol

JK

Mall?

[Agammamon]

How long did it take the Sov's to get Lenin's down?

[Supercharts]

The rope isn't long enough. However it does at least portray a noose around Saddams neck.

[Tony]

do you see that big guy they got up there? He looks like an arab Arnold Swarzenegger.

Today.

[Mel]

Hopefully it will take long enough so that as many people as possible will get their chance to take part in this momentus event.

[Denise]

Originally posted by LukeT
Today.

I think that's the best guess so far Luke! You get a free hug (((((luke)))) and a free one for the twins to ((((Gabriel))))) ((((Danielle))))

[The Central Scrutinizer]

An armored personel carrier just stopped behind it. They should let them pull it down.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Shouldn't those guys hammering at the stone with the sledgehammer be wearing safety goggles?

[Mel]

No way!

This is too important a moment for the citizens that suffered through this regime to rush this event.

Plus it's a powerful message to Muslims the world over to SEE with their own eyes how people celebrate their freedom from oppression..... it COULD BE their turn next to rise up.

[Denise]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
An armored personel carrier just stopped behind it. They should let them pull it down.

Actually, for safety reasons, the tanks should make the people move away and pull it down.

[Agammamon]

I don't think our people should get involved in pulling it down. We are supposed to be there to liberate them, if we pull the statue down it has much the same meaning as raising our flag over a government building. If the Iraqis pull the statue down, it is being done by an oppressed people throwing out a tyrant.

[Denise]

Originally posted by Agammamon
I don't think our people should get involved in pulling it down. We are supposed to be there to liberate them, if we pull the statue down it has much the same meaning as raising our flag over a government building. If the Iraqis pull the statue down, it is being done by an oppressed people throwing out a tyrant.

Fine, let one of their people drive the tank, but I am worried about people getting crushed.

[Tony]

I agree, the joy of tearing down the statue belongs to the people of Baghdad.

[Tony]

I think they are about to tie the rose to the tank and pull the statue down.

When I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about packing up the Statue of Liberty and sending it back to France.

Oh well.

[Denise]

Originally posted by Estimated Prophet
When I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about packing up the Statue of Liberty and sending it back to France.

Oh well.

I hope that's next.

[Linda]

I give it 5 more minutes.

[Denise]

Originally posted by Linda
I give it 5 more minutes.

If you are right will Randi give you the million?:D

[Tony]

How does it feel to watch history in the making?

[Denise]

To be honest, Tony, my mom and I were LOAO watching this morning. Especially the Sky News Guy (see other thread) I can't imagine a reporter on D-day going up to Marines in postion saying "Sorry to bother you, how's it going, how was your ride in?" Very bizarre.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by Tony
How does it feel to watch history in the making?

feels like pillows

[Tony]

HOLY SH*T!!!

The american flag is wrapped around saddams face.

Originally posted by Denise


I hope that's next.

"Give us your poor, your tired, your weak. We'll send 'em right back to their certain death!" (Dead Kennedys)

Never seen you post something so devoid of merit, Denise.

[Denise]

Holy shi!t! The flag. Can't say I blame them, enough of their fellow fighters died for this.

[Denise]

Originally posted by Estimated Prophet


"Give us your poor, your tired, your weak. We'll send 'em right back to their certain death!" (Dead Kennedys)

Never seen you post something so devoid of merit, Denise.

Thank You. They stabbed us in the back.

[Linda]

It's down!

[Reginald]

To hate someone so much.
To hate the things he has done to them, to their families and children.
I can't imagine what they have been through, but I can understand their feelings.

[richardm]

Ah. That fair brought a tear to the eye.

[Denise]

Originally posted by Linda
I give it 5 more minutes.

[Price is Right] Sorry, Linda, you have underbid. Fortunately for you, Luke has underbid more. You get to spin the wheel for a chance to be in the showcase! [/Price is Right]

[Tony]

Originally posted by richardm
Ah. That fair brought a tear to the eye.

word

This, indeed is a great day for the Iraqi people.

[Linda]

:D :D :D

[ceo_esq]

Way to go, Baghdad.

In Prague just after the fall of the Iron Curtain, I remember seeing graffiti in English saying: IT'S OVER, CZECHS ARE FREE. Seeing that statue go down gives me the same thrill.

Sic semper tyrannus.

[Supercharts]

I'm interested to know how the television images were reported and commented on in other parts of the world. Too bad AUP wasn't here to give us the AUP perspective. :)

[CWL]

Originally posted by Denise
Any guesses?

I wouldn't mind a topless statue. :D

*Paging The Scorpions.....*

[cbish]

All they needed to do was import a few Raider fans and the thing would have been down in minutes and they would have been off to loot the nearest convenience store.;)

Of course we know the dangers of introducing foreign species into new habitats!

[richardm]

Originally posted by Supercharts
I'm interested to know how the television images were reported and commented on in other parts of the world.

The BBC managed a combination of excitement and potentious "Great Day In History" proseing. There were some aghast noises from the Arabs in the studio when the Stars and Stripes were draped over the statue, but they cheered up enormously when it was replaced by the Iraqi flag.

[HarryKeogh]

and thankfully al jazeera broadcast the pictures live across the arab world.

talk about your mixed signals to your average arab guy, osama saying to kill the americans and then seeing iraqis beating a statue with their shoes and jumping for joy after the americans beat it down.

this just in, iraq is denying the statue was torn down and jeneane garafolo is attempting to fix it with duct tape.

A reporter on one of the major networks reported one of the Iraqi celebrants in Baghdad was holding a sign that said, "American Human Shields Go Home!"

:D

[Melissa Johnson]

This is most excellent! I am so cheered to see this thread here. Took a minute to check out the message board, as I've been glued to the news. If the Saddam is still above room temperature, I hope he's watching this and grinding his dentures.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Melissa Johnson
If the Saddam is still above room temperature, I hope he's watching this and grinding his dentures.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall wherever he is. I should think he's having a conniption. :D

Have you seen the shots of all those Iraqis out there waving palm branches? Fantastic!

[Denise]

Originally posted by Melissa Johnson
This is most excellent! I am so cheered to see this thread here. Took a minute to check out the message board, as I've been glued to the news. If the Saddam is still above room temperature, I hope he's watching this and grinding his dentures.

Glad to share the joy with you!

[Denise]

Originally posted by LukeT
A reporter on one of the major networks reported one of the Iraqi celebrants in Baghdad was holding a sign that said, "American Human Shields Go Home!"

:D

It said "Human Shields Go Home US Wankers."

I just hope the bronze of the statue will not be recycled to create more weapons.

Thanks,
S&S

[Thumbo]

Amazing. Wonderful.

Those pictures will surely go down in history right next to the ones of the Berlin wall coming down.

(One of those rare times when I wish I had a television - I had to make do with a low res internet video feed.)

[Melissa Johnson]

Interesting too to see the reactions of the anti-crowd...I suppose this is all "American propaganda" too. Sour grapes, anybody?? Dang, I wish I was there to jump up and down on that statue when it came down. I'm half tempted to tell the dear hubby I'm off to a recruiting station :D :D :D

[richardm]

Originally posted by Melissa Johnson
Interesting too to see the reactions of the anti-crowd...


Yes, where are the anti-crowd? Shouldn't they be here telling us that those Iraqis didn't want to be liberated and would have been much happier if this had never happened?


Edited to add: This has been a blatant hit-and-run troll for amusement purposes only (Just my amusement, probably); I don't want to derail a cheerful thread. It's nice to have some good news for a change!

[Denise]

Originally posted by richardm



Yes, where are the anti-crowd? Shouldn't they be here telling us that those Iraqis didn't want to be liberated and would have been much happier if this had never happened?

I think you might have to go trolling in banter for them fishies.

[richardm]

I know, Denise; I couldn't resist though ;)

Just fanatism on both sides of the coin.

Very bad.

Thanks,
S&S

[Mel]

Today can't be a very good day to be CHIRAC. :D :D :D

[Mel]

Originally posted by richardm



Yes, where are the anti-crowd? Shouldn't they be here telling us that those Iraqis didn't want to be liberated and would have been much happier if this had never happened?



Don't dismiss the protestors so easily. They STILL can (and most likely WILL) whine about why the coalition is STILL in Iraq now that Saddam is finished. I mean..... they've been liberated for HOURS already & we're STILL occupying the country????

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by S&S
Just fanatism on both sides of the coin.

Very bad.

Thanks,
S&S

On behalf of the Iraqi people I throw my shoe in your general direction.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by LukeT
*Paging The Scorpions.....*

:D :D :D

Winds of Change!! performed at the Brandenburg Gate!

:D :D :D

This moment in history has the same feel! The liberation of the Iraqi people should have been the stated goal of this effort all along...screw the WMDs! If we have the power to free oppressed people and make the world safer at the same time we should get on with it....I home ole Kim Jung Il is watching!

-z

Originally posted by Mel


Don't dismiss the protestors so easily. They STILL can (and most likely WILL) whine about why the coalition is STILL in Iraq now that Saddam is finished. I mean..... they've been liberated for HOURS already & we're STILL occupying the country????

http://www.internationalanswer.org/images/0412thumbnail.gif

Note the date of the planned protest? April 12.

I wonder if it is still on.....

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by LukeT
Note the date of the planned protest? April 12.

I wonder if it is still on.....

I'm off that day, so perhaps I'll take my big American flag out and find a nice counter-protest to join! It's the first time I've felt like doing such a thing...ever. It's time to let the troops know how much we appreciate their hard work. :D

-z

On April 12 -- in addition to the National March on Washington DC and joint actions in San Francisco and Los Angeles -- massive and coordinated demonstrations will take place around the world, in the Middle East, Latin America, Africa, Asia and Europe.

Following the international call for April 12 demonstrations by the Stop the War Coalition in the UK, ANSWER in the U.S., and ATTAC-Germany, the list of countries that we have received notice from as of April 3 is: ARGENTINA, AUSTRALIA (on Palm Sunday, April 13), BANGLADESH, BELGIUM, BRAZIL, CANADA, CROATIA, CYPRUS, DENMARK, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, ECUADOR, FRANCE, GERMANY, GREECE, GUATEMALA, INDIA, IRELAND, ITALY, JAPAN, MACEDONIA, MEXICO, NETHERLANDS, NICARAGUA, NORWAY PHILIPPINES, POLAND, PUERTO RICO, SLOVENIA, SOUTH KOREA, SPAIN, SUDAN, SWEDEN, UK, U.S., VENEZUELA. Below are details where available and some web sites for more information. Undoubtedly there will be many other demonstrations as there were on Jan. 18, Feb. 15 and March 15.

From here. (http://www.internationalanswer.org/news/update/032703a12intl.html)

"Undoubtedly there will be many other demonstrations as there were on Jan. 18, Feb. 15 and March 15."

:p

Originally posted by rikzilla


I'm off that day, so perhaps I'll take my big American flag out and find a nice counter-protest to join! It's the first time I've felt like doing such a thing...ever. It's time to let the troops know how much we appreciate their hard work. :D

-z

I have to work that day. I so wish I had it off. If the protests still go as scheduled, I expect the commies are going to be so angry about our success, that they won't be able to hide their true nature. I expect the rehetoric to be textbook marxist. Too bad I'll miss it.

[Tony]

Originally posted by LukeT


http://www.internationalanswer.org/images/0412thumbnail.gif

I feel sorry for these people, when the war ends, so will thier lives.

[Thumbo]

Originally posted by Tony


I feel sorry for these people, when the war ends, so will thier lives.
But they're getting their wish - the war will indeed stop soon.

Suggested drinking game at anti-war protest on April 12:

One shot every time someone says "fascist," "war crimes," or "occupation of Iraq." I take no responsibility for those who die from alcohol poisoning.

I'll be keeping my eye on the WWP's front organizations' web sites. I anticipate in 30 days or less, one of them will begin posting American war crimes committed by our troops. Or a new front organization will be formed to do it. Then we will finally have the A.N.S.W.E.R. as to whether or not the anti-war movement is suppportive of our troops.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Agammamon
I don't think our people should get involved in pulling it down. We are supposed to be there to liberate them, if we pull the statue down it has much the same meaning as raising our flag over a government building. If the Iraqis pull the statue down, it is being done by an oppressed people throwing out a tyrant.

I agree with this. Let the Iraqis do it. It's their liberation to celebrate.

I must say, this event does give me some hope about the situation. I'm still skeptical about whether or not this will mean true liberation for them, but time will tell that.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Thumbo

But they're getting their wish - the war will indeed stop soon.

Don't expect them to be happy in it tho... :rolleyes:

I bet they'd really rather see the war drag out and become bloodier so that they could bitch all the more. They're likely pining for the good old days of Vietnam! Bastards! :mad:

Have the Kurds reached Baghdad yet? If they haven't, it sure will be interesting to see what happens when they do.

[Jedi Knight]

Originally posted by LukeT


http://www.internationalanswer.org/images/0412thumbnail.gif

Those are dangerous commies. I hope that the Washington police have stockpiles of rubber bullets, German Shepard attack dogs and helicopter gunships standing by to deal with them.

JK

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Those are dangerous commies. I hope that the Washington police have stockpiles of rubber bullets, German Shepard attack dogs and helicopter gunships standing by to deal with them.

JK

I wouldn't be that extreme, but I don't think too many hearts will bleed if the police knock a few heads if the protestors try to shut down the cities again.

[renata]

Originally posted by richardm
Yes, where are the anti-crowd? Shouldn't they be here telling us that those Iraqis didn't want to be liberated and would have been much happier if this had never happened?


I was wonering how the anti crowd is going to spin this event to show how evil US is- and then I heard some guy named Greg Nelson (didin't catch the beginning of the interview, so I do not know what organization he is from) interviewed on NPR
His main points were
1. Arabs are enraged and humiliated that the US toppled Saddam's regime- any happiness that the dicatator is gone is entirely eclipsed by the humiliation and rage.
2. The statue toppling is a good example. Iraqis worked on it with sledgehammers and other tools- and then Marines show up and take it down. Did any Iraqis asked for them to take it down? No, they were working on it themselves. This is an illustration of needless American intervention, contributing to (you got it) humiliation and rage felt by Arabs.

Not kidding.

Originally posted by renata



2. The statue toppling is a good example. Iraqis worked on it with sledgehammers and other tools- and then Marines show up and take it down. Did any Iraqis asked for them to take it down? No, they were working on it themselves.


Is it known that the Iraqis didn't ask for help tearing it down? I mean, if I saw this big armored vehicle sitting there, I sure would ask for their help to tear that big thing down.

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by renata


I was wonering how the anti crowd is going to spin this event to show how evil US is- and then I heard some guy named Greg Nelson (didin't catch the beginning of the interview, so I do not know what organization he is from) interviewed on NPR
His main points were
1. Arabs are enraged and humiliated that the US toppled Saddam's regime- any happiness that the dicatator is gone is entirely eclipsed by the humiliation and rage.
2. The statue toppling is a good example. Iraqis worked on it with sledgehammers and other tools- and then Marines show up and take it down. Did any Iraqis asked for them to take it down? No, they were working on it themselves. This is an illustration of needless American intervention, contributing to (you got it) humiliation and rage felt by Arabs.

Not kidding.

Amazing, though I shouldn't be amazed as to its source. I saw the live shots from the scene. Looked like the Iraqis went to the Marines, who held off considerably until asked. And there was a swarm of Iraqis on the truck itself, and clambering all over the statue.

:p that for the spin doctors!

edited to remove a pesky grammatical error.

[Melissa Johnson]

Originally posted by Jedi Knight


Those are dangerous commies. I hope that the Washington police have stockpiles of rubber bullets, German Shepard attack dogs and helicopter gunships standing by to deal with them.

JK

Ah, let 'em protest. I just wish I could hop a plane and join the counter-rally. I'd have a big sign that says:

STOP THE WAR--KILL SADDAM

or

LIBERATE IRAQ

Of course, I am one of those people...

[Reginald]

Originally posted by renata


I was wonering how the anti crowd is going to spin this event to show how evil US is- and then I heard some guy named Greg Nelson (didin't catch the beginning of the interview, so I do not know what organization he is from) interviewed on NPR
His main points were
1. Arabs are enraged and humiliated that the US toppled Saddam's regime- any happiness that the dicatator is gone is entirely eclipsed by the humiliation and rage.
2. The statue toppling is a good example. Iraqis worked on it with sledgehammers and other tools- and then Marines show up and take it down. Did any Iraqis asked for them to take it down? No, they were working on it themselves. This is an illustration of needless American intervention, contributing to (you got it) humiliation and rage felt by Arabs.

Not kidding.

Why am I not in the least bit suprised.

Between 1991 and the start of the conflict, the "anti" brigade, chose to ignore the suffering of the Iraqi people. Completely ingnore it. Since the start of the war they have shifted their focus (having failed to prevent hostilities, and in the light of information about the true state of human rights in Iraq) to the needless suffering of the civilians, still avoiding the issue as far as is humanly possible. Arguements like "we are not wanted there" or "its none of our business" spring up. Now this.

Let's see who is first to point out that the crowd size didn't represent the feelings of the city.

Face facts "anti" people, you either chose to blatantly disregard the suffering or you completely and naively underestimated just how evil Saddams regime was.

I sat and I watched and I was moved, not because of the great "spectacle" if the thing, but because I saw people, 1, 10, 100....it didnt matter, who could, possibly for the first time in their life say exactly what they thought. A right that we all take for granted, and a right that, if the "antis" had gotten their way, would still be denied to these people while we all sat around and debated it in the UN.

People have died (yes Iraqis too) to bring this closer to fruition, let us all hope that this is just the start of a better age for the Iraqi people.

[Diezel]

Well, at least a couple of "anti's" (really don't like that word, but oh well) have spun into the Iraqi's are just cheering whoever is in power. Basically, they think the Iraqi people are so submissive, they don't care who is their new leader. It's a terrible argument, but you can see it here: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17271

[Mel]

Originally posted by LukeT


Is it known that the Iraqis didn't ask for help tearing it down? I mean, if I saw this big armored vehicle sitting there, I sure would ask for their help to tear that big thing down.

Earlier I saw a soldier interviewed who said that the troops stood back on the sidelines to allow the Iraqis the prviege of tearing down the statue. It wasn't until they were asked that they took any steps to help.

Perhaps the crowd wanted to give all the Iraqi citizens gathered there a chance with the sledgehammer BEFORE they felt ready to ask for help.



As far as the protests and protestors, there will always be those that just cannot grasp the fact that freedom does not come FREE.

Rather than bitch & moan, let them go to Iraq or Afghanistan and do something constructive. Let them go to Iran and help the people that are repressed THERE. Let them travel to Kashmir and do something to resolve that conflict. Maybe some of them can move to North Korea and protest for peace there? Israel? Saudi Arabia? Syria?

Some many, many causes.... they are wasting their talents.

[FireGarden]

Interesting too to see the reactions of the anti-crowd...I suppose this is all "American propaganda" too. Sour grapes, anybody??
Well, I've already given my congratulations. (In Banter, it turns out - I did wonder why the Politics forum had gone off topic :D)

According to the last Iraqi figures, about 1250 civilians have been killed in the last 3 weeks. That's fewer than 9/11. If you can honestly tell me that you knew the death toll would not be in the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands then go claim Randi's million. Even the number of injured is less than 10,000. (A tragedy of course, but on a much smaller scale than anyone could have thought)

I didn't think it was possible to get rid of Saddam without significantly more innocent deaths than that.

As for ShaneK who is "still skeptical about whether or not this will mean true liberation for them, but time will tell that."

The Americans can't possibly allow Iraq to fall into the kind of anarchy of Palestine or Afghanistan. There has to be an Iraqi government in place soon. In fact I've heard that there may already be the first steps towards that in Basra, and that there may soon be talks between Iraqi exiles and those still in Iraq about how to set up such a government.

Anyway, on topic:
Great stuff!!
I'm really very happy on behalf of the Iraqi people.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda

The Americans can't possibly allow Iraq to fall into the kind of anarchy of Palestine or Afghanistan. There has to be an Iraqi government in place soon.

We'll stick a beard and a robe on Tommy Franks :D Call him Haj Tomee al-Hufranks and issue a fatwa to put a Mickey D's on every corner..... ;) Let the conspiracy theorists begin theorizing! :D

[shanek]

Originally posted by renata
I was wonering how the anti crowd is going to spin this event to show how evil US is

Come on, people! Can we PLEASE stop equating the anti-war side to anti-US? :rolleyes:

Although I do think we should have let the Iraqis take down the statue on their own. It's their moment of celebration.

[Diezel]

Originally posted by shanek


Come on, people! Can we PLEASE stop equating the anti-war side to anti-US? :rolleyes:

Although I do think we should have let the Iraqis take down the statue on their own. It's their moment of celebration.

We did. The Marines stood back and watched, even quoted as saying "They deserve this moment." They only got involved after about an hour, when they were asked by the Iraqi's for their help.

[shanek]

Originally posted by GoodPropaganda
I didn't think it was possible to get rid of Saddam without significantly more innocent deaths than that.

The number seems larger than the pro-war side said it would be, but smaller than the war protestors estimated. I guess reality really does lie between the extremes. There's a good lesson there.

As for ShaneK who is "still skeptical about whether or not this will mean true liberation for them, but time will tell that."

The Americans can't possibly allow Iraq to fall into the kind of anarchy of Palestine or Afghanistan. There has to be an Iraqi government in place soon. In fact I've heard that there may already be the first steps towards that in Basra, and that there may soon be talks between Iraqi exiles and those still in Iraq about how to set up such a government.

Well, check my thread "A non-trivial trivia question." Various western powers have been "liberating" Iraq and the Middle East for a century.

Have you considered that the situation might be more complex than just what America wants? I can want to walk on the ceiling without technological help, that doesn't mean I won't fail miserably when I try.

Originally posted by shanek


Come on, people! Can we PLEASE stop equating the anti-war side to anti-US? :rolleyes:



Yes. We can. But I will not stop equating the people organizing the anti-war movement to being anti-US.

[Denise]

Originally posted by shanek




Have you considered that the situation might be more complex than just what America wants? I can want to walk on the ceiling without technological help, that doesn't mean I won't fail miserably when I try.

I have no doubt that the situation is complex. But just because something hasn't been achieved before does not mean that it can't be achieved.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Denise
I have no doubt that the situation is complex. But just because something hasn't been achieved before does not mean that it can't be achieved.

Granted, but you'll forgive me if I don't become optimistic, given both the track record of other nations in the Middle East and the track record of the US setting up democracies in the last 50 years...

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Reginald


Why am I not in the least bit suprised.

Between 1991 and the start of the conflict, the "anti" brigade, chose to ignore the suffering of the Iraqi people. Completely ingnore it. Since the start of the war they have shifted their focus (having failed to prevent hostilities, and in the light of information about the true state of human rights in Iraq) to the needless suffering of the civilians, still avoiding the issue as far as is humanly possible. Arguements like "we are not wanted there" or "its none of our business" spring up. Now this.

Let's see who is first to point out that the crowd size didn't represent the feelings of the city.

Face facts "anti" people, you either chose to blatantly disregard the suffering or you completely and naively underestimated just how evil Saddams regime was.

I sat and I watched and I was moved, not because of the great "spectacle" if the thing, but because I saw people, 1, 10, 100....it didnt matter, who could, possibly for the first time in their life say exactly what they thought. A right that we all take for granted, and a right that, if the "antis" had gotten their way, would still be denied to these people while we all sat around and debated it in the UN.

People have died (yes Iraqis too) to bring this closer to fruition, let us all hope that this is just the start of a better age for the Iraqi people.

Amen. ;)

I liked Reginald's wording so well I wanted to see it in bold type! :)

[Diezel]

Originally posted by shanek


Granted, but you'll forgive me if I don't become optimistic, given both the track record of other nations in the Middle East and the track record of the US setting up democracies in the last 50 years...

That's ok, there are many cynics on this board. ;)

[Mel]

Originally posted by shanek


Granted, but you'll forgive me if I don't become optimistic, given both the track record of other nations in the Middle East and the track record of the US setting up democracies in the last 50 years...

I couldn't agree more.

[Checkmite]

About a half an hour ago, a large crowd of Iraqis toppled a Saddam statue in the northern city of Kirkuk. The effort took about 30 minutes, and they did it all by themselves.

MSNBC's website (which I happen to like better than any other American news site) has a bold headline that says "Kirkuk Falls". It echoes earlier headlines all over the internet and this morning's papers, saying "Baghdad Falls". I believe that's a bad choice of words. Looking at the faces of the people who were celebrating and crying in the streets yesterday, it seems to me that, conversely, Baghdad has risen, its population emerging from the ashes like a pheonix.

The US should finish its work in Iraq as quickly as possible. As there is literally no government there now, one must be set up, and this is the responsibility of the US and Britain - to at least establish the beginnings of the new leadership there. Then, when the "resistance" has ended and there is no longer a need for them, the US needs to withdraw all its tanks and APCs from the city streets - remove the feeling of "occupation". I believe the US has an obligation and important role to play in the upcoming months, but I believe that work would best be done by people in civilian suits instead of BDUs.

[BillyJoe]

For the past three weeks I have been surrounded by anti-war people. A lone voice struggling to be heard amidst the clamor of righteous indignation. I was scoffed at when I stated that "anyway, it'll all be over in a few weeks"

These last few days I have been going around with a very self satisfied smile on my face - not a "told you so" face but I can't help but feel superior to these people now who just knew it would last for months if not years and perhaps even lead us into WW3!

I am glad to hear from people here in this thread who support the war in Iraq (even if one of them is hammegk :D )

regards,
BillyJoe.

PS Let's hope the peace goes as well.

[shanek]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
For the past three weeks I have been surrounded by anti-war people. A lone voice struggling to be heard amidst the clamor of righteous indignation.

FWIW, I've been in the same situation, only from the other side.

I was scoffed at when I stated that "anyway, it'll all be over in a few weeks"

For the record, I didn't scoff at anyone who said that. I even agreed with it!

But then, Bush says it ain't over yet...

[gnome]

I watched this moment on television and enjoyed it immensely...

I hope that we don't disappoint these people.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by gnome
I watched this moment on television and enjoyed it immensely... Same.
It was 2 am here and it was worth it.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
For the past three weeks I have been surrounded by anti-war people. A lone voice struggling to be heard amidst the clamor of righteous indignation. I was scoffed at when I stated that "anyway, it'll all be over in a few weeks"

These last few days I have been going around with a very self satisfied smile on my face - not a "told you so" face but I can't help but feel superior to these people now who just knew it would last for months if not years and perhaps even lead us into WW3!

I am glad to hear from people here in this thread who support the war in Iraq (even if one of them is hammegk :D )

regards,
BillyJoe.

PS Let's hope the peace goes as well.

I think I also said that it would be over pretty quick, depending on unforseen circumstances such as extreme storms etc.

The issue I have also worried about from the start is the possibility that this is in fact the start of a long period of conflict. The US already is making the same noises about Syria that it was making about Iraq.

Then it won't be that this war was over in a few weeks, but what about the years of wars around the world we may be in store for.

Also, the peace has only just started. Given the state of Afghanistan, the future of Iraq may not be any better.

[Denise]

Funny. Yes it was amazingly quick, maybe so quick the military wasn't prepared for a peace keeping force. Time to take the land, but not enough to keep the peace.

[Brown]

One of the news networks showed the footage of the statue toppling, and then compared it to other historic events: the explosion of Challenger, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the assassination of JFK, man walking on the moon....

Which seemed to me to be overstating the historical importance of the statue-toppling event.