Homeopathy and Polar Molecule Memory?

[Olaf/QII]

I have uncovered at least a couple dozen DBPC studies that support homeopathy and about six that don't support it. The person in this forum states that water memory is disproven. I think that the evidence for water memory has been given new life by a few recent studies.

http://www.scienceforums.com/showthread.php?t=2091&page=2


Below is an article from New Scientist that makes a strong case for water memory.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1532

http://www.doctorshealthsupply.com/homeopath/homeopathic_newsletter.htm

"The history of the solution is important. The more dilute it starts, the larger the aggregates," says Geckeler. Also, it only worked in polar solvents like water, in which one end of the molecule has a pronounced positive charge while the other end is negative.




And the experiments performed by a Swiss chemist using thermoluminescence on lithium and sodium solutions diluted far beyond avogrado's number is something that gives very strong evidence of something peculiar going on with respect to water memory.

http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Rey.thermoluminescence.pdf

http://www.raydionics.com/water.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817

Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?

The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.




www.skepp.be:8080/skepp/artikels/alternatieve_behandelingen/ECH_report_research112004-1.pdf+ECH+GENERAL+ASSEMBLY+%E2%80%93+XVIII+Symposi um+of+GIRI&hl=en]Can (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5dav_Qdv3j4J:



A/ The experimental model that is cheapest, most reproducible and also the most easilyresearched is probably the “acetylcholine-induced contraction of the rat ileum�. It is a well-recognized scientific model (Chang FY, Lee SD, et al. Rat gastrointestinal motor responsesmediated via activation of neurokinin receptors. J.Gastroenterol Hepatol 1999; 14: 39-45).This model has been devised for the verification of very high dilutions of Belladonna by A.Cristea, a Romanian researcher; results have already been published (Bastide M (ed). Signalsand Images. Kluwer Academic Publishers 1997: 161-170).

[url]http://www.skepp.be:8080/skepp/artikels/alternatieve_behandelingen/ECH_report_research112004-1.pdf


Professor Wolfgang Süß, Institute of Pharmacy at the University of Leipzig, has used this model to test the transfer of the activity of a homeopathic remedy (in this case Atropinumsulphuricum D60) from the original liquid form to the homeopathic tablet. As usual, severalcontrols were performed. Alpha-lactose monohydrate tablets impregnated with the highlydiluted Atropinum had systematically efficacy, on the contrary with anhydrous alpha-lactose tablets no effect can be ascertained. Thus, the quality of homeopathic tablets can be testedbefore daily use in pharmacy (constant reproducibility). This very simple model therefore has the potential to remove doubts about the activity of very highly diluted homeopathic remedies(Schmidt F, Süß WG, Nieber K. In-vitro Testung von homöopathischen Verdünnungen. Biol.Med./Heft 1/February 2004;32-37).

[Rolfe]

Hi Xanta.

Rolfe.

[Olaf/QII]

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4305

The researchers took groups of five mice either with or without arsenic poisoning and drop fed them Arsenicum Album, distilled water, or alcohol that had been through the same preparation procedure as the homeopathic antidote.

Two different dilutions of the homeopathic remedy cut the levels of two liver enzymes - ALT and AST - which are indicators of liver toxicity and are boosted by arsenic poisoning. This positive effect occurred within 72 hours and liver lasted for up to 30 days, they report in their journal paper. Distilled water had no effect on either enzyme. And alcohol actually enhanced the activity of AST.




Very interesting paper (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5dav_Qdv3j4J:www.skepp.be:8080/skepp/artikels/alternatieve_behandelingen/ECH_report_research112004-1.%20pdf+ECH+GENERAL+ASSEMBLY+%E2%80%93+XVIII+Symp osium<br%20/>+of+GIRI&hl=en)

This paper contains several studies that merit a closer look.

[Rolfe]

Find a new line, Xanta, why don't you?

Rolfe.

[Rolfe]

"nerr" is suddenly "olaf/QII". Wow, that was quick.

Now go away, Xanta.

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Rolfe
"nerr" is suddenly "olaf/QII". Wow, that was quick.

Now go away, Xanta.

Rolfe.
Darat (or whomever changed the nick) should just keep slashing it. It'd be amusing to see the complete list of sockpuppets a homeopath can gather.

[Olaf/QII]

Excuse me but what just happened here? Who took over my account and changed my name?

Are you people that fearful of a few posts that may run counter to your beliefs? Is harrassment the rule around here? Are all open-minded people who come here persecuted for asking questions? Is that the way science works -- stifling those who may have information that expands existing knowledge?

[BPSCG]

We're going to have some neighbors over for Memorial Day and I'm going to fire up the grill. Probably put some flank steaks on it. As you surely know, flank steak can be a little tough, but responds wonderfully to marinade.

Now here's the problem: Our neighbor has a serious gluten intolerance problem, so we need a marinade that doesn't use soy sauce. He also can't digest white vinegar, but wine vinegar is okay for some reason.

So, who's got a good recipe? Let's share!

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Donks
Darat (or whomever changed the nick) should just keep slashing it. It'd be amusing to see the complete list of sockpuppets a homeopath can gather. If you want the full set that I'm aware of, it's Xanta/Gold/Olaf/QII/Yaw/nerr.

Xanta is only on the homoeopathy boards. Gold was her first incarnation here, which she just walked away from. Never censured or banned that I know of. Olaf got banned after QII was found to be a sock of Olaf, and at the same time QII was changed to Olaf/QII. That identity was apparently a casualty of one of the forum crashes, and she never came back to re-register that identity with a valid password. However, she did come back as Yaw for a bit, and as far as I remember she also walked away from that without being banned or "slashed".

The antics of people without a tenable argment are pretty entertaining sometimes.

Rolfe.

PS. The other much-slashed identity is Naturalhealth/Homeoskeptic/Corallinus/Sarah-I.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
Excuse me but what just happened here? Who took over my account and changed my name?

Are you people that fearful of a few posts that may run counter to your beliefs? Is harrassment the rule around here? Are all open-minded people who come here persecuted for asking questions? Is that the way science works -- stifling those who may have information that expands existing knowledge?
Are you saying that you're not Xanta/Olaf/QII/etc? Would you mind if the mods post evidence that you are, which may include your IP address?

[Olaf/QII]

Originally posted by Donks
Are you saying that you're not Xanta/Olaf/QII/etc? Would you mind if the mods post evidence that you are, which may include your IP address?

I am none of the above and they can post whatever evidence they want to prove it.

meanwhile, I have no password to re-log in on. Once I log out I can not get back in effectively shutting me out.

Give me a password or restore my original name of nerr.

Apparently this is the way you treat people who post science that runs counter to the beliefs held at this forum. Censorship is not the answer.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Donks
Are you saying that you're not Xanta/Olaf/QII/etc? Would you mind if the mods post evidence that you are, which may include your IP address? I have this surreal sense of d&eacute;j&agrave; vu (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45125).

Hey, that thread had Doc X and Hellcat (as Fluffy) too. It was wonderful!

Rolfe.

[Donks]

Originally posted by BPSCG
We're going to have some neighbors over for Memorial Day and I'm going to fire up the grill. Probably put some flank steaks on it. As you surely know, flank steak can be a little tough, but responds wonderfully to marinade.

Now here's the problem: Our neighbor has a serious gluten intolerance problem, so we need a marinade that doesn't use soy sauce. He also can't digest white vinegar, but wine vinegar is okay for some reason.

So, who's got a good recipe? Let's share!
Sorry, I don't have a recipe to share. But I'll share something else. I'm currently tagging an ***load of mp3s that made their way into my HD when my brother got a hold of it. Among them is a classical piece called "The Typewriter." I'm sure you've heard it before, I'd heard it before in a TV show or movie, or womewhere like that. It features an old typewriter, with the bell and all. Fun to listen to.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by BPSCG
We're going to have some neighbors over for Memorial Day and I'm going to fire up the grill. Probably put some flank steaks on it. As you surely know, flank steak can be a little tough, but responds wonderfully to marinade.

Now here's the problem: Our neighbor has a serious gluten intolerance problem, so we need a marinade that doesn't use soy sauce. He also can't digest white vinegar, but wine vinegar is okay for some reason.

So, who's got a good recipe? Let's share!

Hi BPSCG! We don't really know each other yet, but I love a good flank steak. I've been doing a marinade of olive oil Worcestershire and lime juice and then I rub the steak with McCormick's Grill Mates Montreal Steak Seasoning and fresh garlic. Let it sit for about two hours, turning once. Yummy.

Edited to add that the French's brand is gluten free as are many brands found in health food stores.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
I am none of the above and they can post whatever evidence they want to prove it.
Wonderful. I'd expect the mods to come around shortly and provide the evidence, or if they made a mistake revert their decision.

[Olaf/QII]

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
I am none of the above and they can post whatever evidence they want to prove it.

meanwhile, I have no password to re-log in on. Once I log out I can not get back in effectively shutting me out.

Give me a password or restore my original name of nerr.

Apparently this is the way you treat people who post science that runs counter to the beliefs held at this forum. Censorship is not the answer.

Nevermind. It seems that my password has been left untouched.

However, I find it despicable that I was attacked for posting science that appears in some of the world's most respected journals such as Physica A.

Ask yourselves -- what are you afraid of. Why do you harrass people who are open minded about science. Why are you so fearful of science that may expand our current understanding of the world.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
Hi BPSCG! We don't really know each other yet, but I love a good flank steak. I've been doing a marinade of olive oil Worcestershire and lime juice and then I rub the steak with McCormick's Grill Mates Montreal Steak Seasoning and fresh garlic. Let it sit for about two hours, turning once. Yummy. Do you think someone with IBD could eat that?

I wonder what the weather is like on Lake Erie just now. Spring is so nice when you live on an island, isn't it? All that health-giving shaken-up water all around! :D

Rolfe.

[Olaf/QII]

http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Rey.thermoluminescence.pdf

Has anyone seen this experiment? I would like to hear your opinion.

[geni]

Originally posted by Olaf/QII
I have uncovered at least a couple dozen DBPC studies that support homeopathy and about six that don't support it. The person in this forum states that water memory is disproven. I think that the evidence for water memory has been given new life by a few recent studies.

http://www.scienceforums.com/showthread.php?t=2091&page=2


Below is an article from New Scientist that makes a strong case for water memory.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1532

http://www.doctorshealthsupply.com/homeopath/homeopathic_newsletter.htm

"The history of the solution is important. The more dilute it starts, the larger the aggregates," says Geckeler. Also, it only worked in polar solvents like water, in which one end of the molecule has a pronounced positive charge while the other end is negative.




You know some tried to repeat this study. Here are the results:

Lack of evidence of dilution history-dependence upon solute aggregation in water. A nuclear magnetic resonance determination of self-diffusion coefficients

Fernando Hallwass , M. Engelsberg and A. M. Simas

This study reported that:

NMR-PFG (pulsed field gradient) diffusion coefficient measurements of aqueous solutions of sodium chloride, sodium azide, 18C6 crown ether, -cyclodextrin and of a mixture of sodium azide and 18C6 crown ether, did not reveal any solution history-dependence, indicating that the unexpected solute aggregation upon dilution, reported by Samal and Geckeler (Chem. Commun., 2001, 2224), is inconsistent with these as well as other experimental results.

Cheakmate

[Rolfe]

Oh, Geni. You disappoint me!

http://www.b5-dark-mirror.demon.co.uk/caramelkit.jpg

Rolfe. :c1:

[geni]

Originally posted by Olaf/QII

And the experiments performed by a Swiss chemist using thermoluminescence on lithium and sodium solutions diluted far beyond avogrado's number is something that gives very strong evidence of something peculiar going on with respect to water memory.

http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Rey.thermoluminescence.pdf

http://www.raydionics.com/water.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817




Yet a paper is about to be published in the reputable journal Physica A claiming to show that even though they should be identical, the structure of hydrogen bonds in pure water is very different from that in homeopathic dilutions of salt solutions. Could it be time to take the "memory" of water seriously?

The paper's author, Swiss chemist Louis Rey, is using thermoluminescence to study the structure of solids. The technique involves bathing a chilled sample with radiation. When the sample is warmed up, the stored energy is released as light in a pattern that reflects the atomic structure of the sample.
[/quote]


Sodium and lithium ions are pretty common contaminats you are (or more correctly they are contaminates that you almost always get).

[Rolfe]

I'll bet you the JREF million she doesn't even read your posts, Geni.

I'm waiting for Kleijnen, Boissel and Linde, and "100,000 medical doctors" and maybe even "THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND" before I muck in.

Rolfe.

[Perpetual Notion]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Do you think someone with IBD could eat that?

Rolfe.

You're right Rolfe. I read the post quickly and didn't put it together that the person had irritable bowel. How about the gluten free W. sauce (French's was recommended on an IBD site), wine vinegar and olive oil? Maybe fresh parsley if they can do that? That sounds good to me about now.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally posted by BPSCG
We're going to have some neighbors over for Memorial Day and I'm going to fire up the grill. Probably put some flank steaks on it. As you surely know, flank steak can be a little tough, but responds wonderfully to marinade.

Now here's the problem: Our neighbor has a serious gluten intolerance problem, so we need a marinade that doesn't use soy sauce. He also can't digest white vinegar, but wine vinegar is okay for some reason.

So, who's got a good recipe? Let's share!

I did not know soy hat gluten (is there flour in it).

Anyway... I like red wine. Sometimes cheap acidic wine works quite well.

Put your steaks in a non-reactivie container (glass or ceramic), stab it a few times so the marinade soaks in. Put in some whole pepper corns, coriander seed, a couple of whole cloves, some peeled cloves of garlic, some onion slices and then some rosemary. It happens that I have a pair of rosemary shrubs... so I can hack off as much as I need. I also throw in some sprigs of thyme and some parsely. Then pour over some inexpensive red wine to cover it. You may also want to put in some olive oil.

Marinade overnight. Grill... baste occasionally. Also, do not over cook the steaks.

I did this several years ago for a party to celebrate Venezuelan Independence Day... it worked out quite well. The reason to celebrate Venezuelan Independence Day was because July 4th was on a Sunday, so the day off from work was Monday July 5th --- which happens to be Venezuela's day (they wanted to sign THEIR declaration on the 4th like us... but argued all night. Which is pretty much is also what happened in Philadelphia in 1776).

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Perpetual Notion
You're right Rolfe. I read the post quickly and didn't put it together that the person had irritable bowel. How about the gluten free W. sauce (French's was recommended on an IBD site), wine vinegar and olive oil? Maybe fresh parsley if they can do that? That sounds good to me about now. Ah - didn't know there was gluten-free Worchestershire suace. Our neighbor offered to bring over some soy-less soy sauce to help with the marinade, but if French's makes the stuff, so much the better.

Hmmm... I wonder if sodium and lithium ions would affect the taste...

[Mojo]

Originally posted by Donks
Sorry, I don't have a recipe to share. But I'll share something else. I'm currently tagging an ***load of mp3s that made their way into my HD when my brother got a hold of it. Among them is a classical piece called "The Typewriter." I'm sure you've heard it before, I'd heard it before in a TV show or movie, or womewhere like that. It features an old typewriter, with the bell and all. Fun to listen to. I think it's used as the theme tune to BBC Radio 4's The News Quiz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/newsquiz.shtml).

[Soapy Sam]

Always nice to see old friends again. :D