Anyone with dogs......flea and tick solutions?

[leila]

I need a solution for the ticks my dogs are getting. We have a lot, so it has to be something that won't cost like $100 a dog.
One of our dogs is sick and we're afraid she might have lyme disease, so we're looking for something to keep the ticks off the other ones.

If you can help please post or something.

Thanks,
Leila

[Lisa Simpson]

Frontline is good, but not cheap. I paid $70 for 7 treatments for my cats. Which I have to do tonight. Lucky me. :(

[leila]

Gee, lucky you. That sounds as much fun as trying to give a bear a bubble bath. Ick. Good luck.

Do you get your Fontline stuff from the vet or somewhere else?

[Lisa Simpson]

I bought it at the vet, but I was there anyway for the cats' triennial wellcat visit.

Large chain pet stores like Petsmart or Petco should carry it, or online http://www.1800petmeds.com/

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by leila
Gee, lucky you. That sounds as much fun as trying to give a bear a bubble bath. Ick. Good luck.



If they give me too much hassle I swear I am going to buy them a kitty straightjacket.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3159&N=2002+2015

Dr. Foster & Smith might have a good price on Frontline, too.

[CurtC]

The Frontline and Advantage products work wonders. One thing you might want to do is to see how much of the formula is in the size bottle that each dog needs, then buy the stuff for a very large dog and split it between two smaller dogs.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by leila
I need a solution for the ticks my dogs are getting. We have a lot, so it has to be something that won't cost like $100 a dog.
One of our dogs is sick and we're afraid she might have lyme disease, so we're looking for something to keep the ticks off the other ones.Frontline is good, and Advantage. Program is very good too, given as tablets. To be honest, going for cheaper products is a false economy because you just won't get the effect.

Don't worry too much about Lyme. It's not such a big horror, and not that common in dogs. Of course I have to remember that it's a much bigger deal in America than in Britain for a number of reasons, but even so, there's one thing to remember. The main risk from Lyme is not diagnosing it. Borrelia burgdorferi, the causative agent, is very susceptible to tetracycline antibiotics, and the easy way to play it is just to treat with doxycycline or something like that on suspicion. All the terrible stories of horrible Lyme disease are cases where the disease has been undiagnosed and has progressed untreated. Doxycycline is cheap and effective, so you don't even need to bother about diagnostic tests - treat on a reasonable suspicion and your dog should be fine.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

I don't remember the name of the product (and it's gonna be different in my neck of the woods anyway), but when I last had a cat, I used some (rather expensive) stuff that you applied as a couple of drops on the back of the neck of the animal. If a cat is touchable at all, this is no problem (and if it is not touchable... I have other recomendations). It was for fleas, but turned out to be very bad news for the ticks as well (in the high season, I used to remove an average of three ticks from that cat, per day).

The price of that product was more or less the same per dose, regardless of animal size (=dose strength), so it was good economy to buy for a large animal and spread it out. So the normal dose for a cat was tree drops, or one drop from a dog dose (ok, Rolfe, bring on the flak ;) )

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
The price of that product was more or less the same per dose, regardless of animal size (=dose strength), so it was good economy to buy for a large animal and spread it out. So the normal dose for a cat was tree drops, or one drop from a dog dose (ok, Rolfe, bring on the flak ;) )I just think you should be very careful before you do something like that. It's possible that the packaging into the single-dose vials is the cost-determining factor, and so what you suggest might be OK. However, dogs and cats are different species, with different toxicology profiles, and it may be that the cat dose is very differently formulated from the dog dose. I'd recommend reading the detailed contents lists of both products line by line before deciding to do anything too clever.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

I quite agree. I would never have done it, had my vet not suggested it ;). Let me add that I had every reason to have confidence in said vet.

Edited to add: But I realize that it would have been correct to include a disclaimer in my first post. Let it be done here: Never tamper with drugs without consulting the relevant practitioner.

Hans

[Bikewer]

We use a combo flea-tick-heartworm-earmite-etc. medication called Revolution.
It's just a squirt from a small ampoule on the dog's back once a month.

For the life of me I can't recall what it costs.

[MRC_Hans]

Dogs are generally quite compliant, but most cat-owners will pay a steep price to avoid having to administer pills to their charges, not to mention baths and :eek: sprays.

Back before these things existed, one pet shop clerk suggested me a spray can based flea killer for a cat I owned. When I remarked on what the combination of a loud hiss and something wet does to a cat, he suggested I put it in a bird cage during the process :eek:!

Never set my feet in that shop again.

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Bikewer
We use a combo flea-tick-heartworm-earmite-etc. medication called Revolution.
It's just a squirt from a small ampoule on the dog's back once a month.

For the life of me I can't recall what it costs. They're flogging something here called "Advocate", which sounds similar. According to the advertising blurb, it kills anything that doesn't have exactly four legs! I don't know how much it costs, but the advertising must be costing them a fortune. Great adverts though, with very funny composite parasite pictures. I've one here of the "Evil-clawed Fleamodex (Gnawsae fleasandmoreitus)", and another for the "Sabre-toothed Fleamatode (Nastae fleasandmoreitus)", which sounds as if they don't have much variety of imagination, but it's still fun.

I note that the dog and cat formulae have different proportions of the two active ingredients (imidacloprid and moxidectin), and so it wouldn't be smart to use the dog preparation on cats for this one. (The cat one has much less moxidectin than the dog one.) In fact, I believe I have heard tales of cats in trouble because the wrong preparation had been used.

Rolfe.

[CurtC]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
If a cat is touchable at all, this is no problem (and if it is not touchable... I have other recomendations).
How to give a pill to your cat:

1) Pick cat up and cradle it in the crook of your left arm as if holding a baby. Position right forefinger and thumb on either side of cat's mouth and gently apply pressure to cheeks while holding pill in right hand. As the cat opens mouth pop pill into mouth. Allow cat to close mouth and swallow.

2) Retrieve pill from floor and cat from behind sofa. Cradle cat in left arm and repeat process.

3) Retrieve cat from bedroom, and throw soggy pill away.

4) Take new pill from foil wrap, cradle cat in left arm holding rear paws tightly with left hand. Force jaws open and push pill to back of mouth with right forefinger. Hold mouth shut for a count of ten.

5) Retrieve pill from goldfish bowl and cat from top of wardrobe. Call spouse from garden.

6) Kneel on floor with cat wedged firmly between knees, hold front and rear paws. Ignore low growls emitted by cat. Get spouse to hold head firmly with one hand while forcing wooden ruler into mouth. Drop pill down ruler and vigorously rub cat's throat.

7) Retrieve cat from curtain rail, get another pill from foil wrap. Make a note to buy new ruler and repair curtains. Carefully sweep shattered figurines and vases from hearth and set to one side for gluing later.

8) Wrap cat in large towel and get spouse to lie on cat with head just visible from below armpit. Put pill in end of drinking straw, force mouth open with pencil and blow down drinking straw.

9) Check label to make sure pill is not harmful to humans, drink 1 beer to take taste away. Apply Band-Aid to spouse's forearm and remove blood from carpet with cold water and soap.

10) Retrieve cat from neighbor's shed. Get another pill. Open another beer. Place cat in cupboard and close door onto neck to leave head showing. Force mouth open with dessert spoon. Flick pill down throat with elastic band.

11) Fetch screwdriver from garage and put cupboard door back on hinges. Drink beer. Fetch bottle of scotch. Pour shot, drink. Apply cold compress to cheek and check records for date of your last tetanus jab. Apply whiskey compress to cheek to disinfect. Toss back another shot. Throw tee-shirt away and fetch new one from bedroom.

12) Ring fire brigade to retrieve the friggin' cat from tree across the road. Apologize to neighbor who crashed into fence while swerving to avoid cat. Take last pill from foil wrap.

13) Tie the little @#!*#^~!'s front paws to rear paws with garden twine and bind tightly to leg of dining room table, find heavy duty Pruning gloves from shed. Push pill into mouth followed by large piece of fillet steak. Be rough about it. Hold head vertically and pour 2 pints of water down throat to wash pill down.

14) Consume remainder of Scotch. Get spouse to drive you to the emergency room, sit quietly while doctor stitches fingers and forearm and removes pill remnants from right eye. Call furniture shop on way home to order new table.

15) Arrange for SPCA to collect mutant cat from hell and ring local pet shop to see if they have any hamsters.

[Moliere]

I swear by Frontline and Heartguard. We have never had a flea or tick problem in the 2 years of dog ownership. I will gladly pay the $70 if that means I don't have fleas in the house.

[zakur]

My canines get a combo of Frontline topical for fleas/ticks, and Interceptor for heart/hook/round/whipworm control. They are parasite free.

[Vagabond]

Last year my dog got fleas. I tried the expensive stuff and it didn't work and it made my dogs skin all raw and dry. Fleas will die if you just wash the animal in soapy water. Also if the pet will tolerate it, use the vaccum cleaner to suck them off. My dog loved it, thought she was being pampered. After she didn't have fleas anymore she still wanted to be vaccumed.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Vagabond
Fleas will die if you just wash the animal in soapy water.And which vet college did you qualify from, do tell me? This simply isn't true. If your pet became flea-free after that exercise, that was pure blind luck.

Also, bear in mind that only a tiny fraction of the flea population of your house is on the pet at any one time. If you want to use the vacuum cleaner to any effect, use it on the carpets and soft furnishings. However, fleas will still live in the vacuum cleaner bag, so be careful what you do with it. And remember that no physical cleaning regimen will rid a house of fleas completely.

Good quality anti-parasite treatments will not leave any animal's skin raw. This is pure mischief-making. Scratching at an uncontrolled flea burden can do just that though!

However, note that the opening poster was looking for something against ticks as well, so that narrows the field quite a lot. The more expensive products are worth it for that indication, because you get such a wide spectrum of activity. If you try cheaper stuff, you may find the money is wasted because it simply won't work.

Rolfe.

[leila]

Thanks! I'll have to do some shopping around, check out this stuff. :-)

[leila]

Originally posted by CurtC
How to give a pill to your cat:

1) Pick cat up and cradle it in the crook of your left arm as if holding a baby. Position right forefinger and thumb on either side of cat's mouth and gently apply pressure to cheeks while holding pill in right hand. As the cat opens mouth pop pill into mouth. Allow cat to close mouth and swallow.

2) Retrieve pill from floor and cat from behind sofa. Cradle cat in left arm and repeat process.

3) Retrieve cat from bedroom, and throw soggy pill away.

4) Take new pill from foil wrap, cradle cat in left arm holding rear paws tightly with left hand. Force jaws open and push pill to back of mouth with right forefinger. Hold mouth shut for a count of ten.

5) Retrieve pill from goldfish bowl and cat from top of wardrobe. Call spouse from garden.

6) Kneel on floor with cat wedged firmly between knees, hold front and rear paws. Ignore low growls emitted by cat. Get spouse to hold head firmly with one hand while forcing wooden ruler into mouth. Drop pill down ruler and vigorously rub cat's throat.

7) Retrieve cat from curtain rail, get another pill from foil wrap. Make a note to buy new ruler and repair curtains. Carefully sweep shattered figurines and vases from hearth and set to one side for gluing later.

8) Wrap cat in large towel and get spouse to lie on cat with head just visible from below armpit. Put pill in end of drinking straw, force mouth open with pencil and blow down drinking straw.

9) Check label to make sure pill is not harmful to humans, drink 1 beer to take taste away. Apply Band-Aid to spouse's forearm and remove blood from carpet with cold water and soap.

10) Retrieve cat from neighbor's shed. Get another pill. Open another beer. Place cat in cupboard and close door onto neck to leave head showing. Force mouth open with dessert spoon. Flick pill down throat with elastic band.

11) Fetch screwdriver from garage and put cupboard door back on hinges. Drink beer. Fetch bottle of scotch. Pour shot, drink. Apply cold compress to cheek and check records for date of your last tetanus jab. Apply whiskey compress to cheek to disinfect. Toss back another shot. Throw tee-shirt away and fetch new one from bedroom.

12) Ring fire brigade to retrieve the friggin' cat from tree across the road. Apologize to neighbor who crashed into fence while swerving to avoid cat. Take last pill from foil wrap.

13) Tie the little @#!*#^~!'s front paws to rear paws with garden twine and bind tightly to leg of dining room table, find heavy duty Pruning gloves from shed. Push pill into mouth followed by large piece of fillet steak. Be rough about it. Hold head vertically and pour 2 pints of water down throat to wash pill down.

14) Consume remainder of Scotch. Get spouse to drive you to the emergency room, sit quietly while doctor stitches fingers and forearm and removes pill remnants from right eye. Call furniture shop on way home to order new table.

15) Arrange for SPCA to collect mutant cat from hell and ring local pet shop to see if they have any hamsters.

LOL!!!!!!!!!! (Dies laughing)

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by leila
Thanks! I'll have to do some shopping around, check out this stuff. :-) Yes, do that. Check on spectrum of activity, and that whatever you're looking at will kill what you want killed. I think I mentioned Program, because that's what I use on my cat, but in fact I don't think it would do a blind bit of good against ticks.

Stronghold? And this Advocate concoction sounds quite lethal.

Rolfe.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Moliere
I swear by Frontline and Heartguard. We have never had a flea or tick problem in the 2 years of dog ownership. I will gladly pay the $70 if that means I don't have fleas in the house.

The vets around here are charging $60 a month for the Heartguard alone.

When I was in Virginia it was much more affordable, and I used it.

Now I use the 3 for 1 skin drops that seem to have kept mosquitos at bay, as well as ticks and fleas.

[Hydrogen Cyanide]

Originally posted by crimresearch
The vets around here are charging $60 a month for the Heartguard alone.....

Some vets are more affordable. Shop around.

A friend was telling me how much she paid for Advantage from somewhere else (I think the Internet) -- then I told how much our vet charged. Her jaw dropped because the vet we were using was charging was slightly more than half of what she paid.

At least getting rid of the fleas finally got rid of the tapeworm.

Also the low price we paid for the Advantage was quickly sucked away when we spent $500 to find out the very sick cat who kept throwing up and had a very tender lower abdomen did not actually consume string (which she was known to do... and I tried to tell kids to keep it away from her), but had a very bad tummy ache. sigh

[Vagabond]

And which vet college did you qualify from, do tell me? This simply isn't true. If your pet became flea-free after that exercise, that was pure blind luck.<<<<

The vet college of I did it so I know for a fact it works. Which is probably better than the one you attended.

I never said the animal will be flea free after one soapy bath, but it's about as good as using expensive flea shampoo which has never worked for me in one application either and it's free.

Anything that kills, fleas, june bugs whatever has a strong potential of doing damage to whatever you put it on. Lost a cherry tree to june bug spray. Your implication that anti flea poison is harmless is absurd. It might be rarely harmful at best. You might just be a vet, that is about the moronic level of advice I get from them. Their advice usually revolves around what is best for their bottom line not what is best for my pet or mine.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Vagabond
And which vet college did you qualify from, do tell me? This simply isn't true. If your pet became flea-free after that exercise, that was pure blind luck.<<<<

The vet college of I did it so I know for a fact it works. Which is probably better than the one you attended.

I never said the animal will be flea free after one soapy bath, but it's about as good as using expensive flea shampoo which has never worked for me in one application either and it's free.

Anything that kills, fleas, june bugs whatever has a strong potential of doing damage to whatever you put it on. Lost a cherry tree to june bug spray. Your implication that anti flea poison is harmless is absurd. It might be rarely harmful at best. You might just be a vet, that is about the moronic level of advice I get from them. Their advice usually revolves around what is best for their bottom line not what is best for my pet or mine. OK, I'll be sure to tell my professors that you know best. And that we're all morons I suppose.

So if a string of veterinary qualifications isn't enough, I'll raise you "I did it, and it didn't work." (Yes, I did know better, but sometimes optimism wins out over understanding, and I tried it. Fleas come out of a washing machine smiling, you know.)

I'm not advocating any sort of flea shampoo. These preparations are not particularly effective. I'm advocating the spot-on or oral products, which are much more practical and much more effective.

And read my post again. I did not state that anti-flea treatments were harmless. Anything like that has the potential to do harm, and that's why they're not freely available in any supermarket but are supposed to be dispensed and supervised by people who know what they're doing. Who are all morons of course.

However, I did state that flea treatments do not leave the animal's skin raw, as you originally stated. That's much more likely to be the consequence of leaving a bad flea infestation untreated, or neglecting it by proceding under the delusion that you can get rid of the things by bathing.

Knowing the life cycle of the flea, and what a tiny proportion of them are on the animal at any one time (the rest inhabiting the carpets and soft furnishings), I'd hate to see the inside of your house.

And I can only say you're either a twisted cynic, or you've met some very atypical vets. My job involves liaising with my colleagues and helping them sort out their difficult cases, and you simply have no idea how committed the average vet is to doing the best for the animals under his or her care. It's a fact of practice that doing the right thing by your client and your patient should be enough to keep a business healthy. The idea that a vet would advise something harmful and ineffective rather than something cheap and safe and effective, simply to generate profit, is pure libel.

Rolfe.

[MRC_Hans]

OMG, I've only finished drying my eyes from reading "How to give a pill to your cat". Thanks for that, CurtC! :roll:

Once, when I had a dog, I asked my vet about flea collars. He said: "They are very efficient. The only problem is putting them on the flea."

I also shampooed a cat (the one I didn't put in a bird cage and spray :nope:). I used a special flea shampoo. I can only say we all hated the procedure; the cat, the feas, and not least me.

Ever been wet and miserable, and it made you need to pee? Well, cats don't hold back, and this was an uncastrated Tom-cat :eek: (yeah, I know, but this was long ago).

It certainly killed a lot of fleas (and I didn't notice any of them smiling), but the procedure had to be repeated at two to three week intervals to keep the problem down :rolleyes:. I distinctly remember the feeling of claws digging into my shoulder every time I carried him into the basement.

Oh, and having had several dogs and more cats, I have met quite a number of vets. All of them have been great people (including Rolfe)(whom I haven't actually met, still...).

Hans

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I also shampooed a cat (the one I didn't put in a bird cage and spray :nope: ). I used a special flea shampoo. I can only say we all hated the procedure; the cat, the feas, and not least me.

Ever been wet and miserable, and it made you need to pee? Well, cats don't hold back, and this was an uncastrated Tom-cat :eek: (yeah, I know, but this was long ago).

It certainly killed a lot of fleas (and I didn't notice any of them smiling), but the procedure had to be repeated at two to three week intervals to keep the problem down :rolleyes:. I distinctly remember the feeling of claws digging into my shoulder every time I carried him into the basement.Well the medicated shampoos (which is what I assume you were using) aren't useless. But as you discovered, they're a pain to use for both you and the animal, and need to be repeated frequently. (Because as soon as you kill one lot of fleas, the next contingent simply hops aboard.) They're pretty much superseded now, I note this was a long time ago.

However, the idea that you can get rid of or even adequately control fleas by ordinary bathing with ordinary soap or shampoo is nonsensical.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

One thing that has not been stated explicitly is that if you want to prevent tick-borne diseases then you need to deter ticks not just kill them.

Bayer's Advantix does that. Deltamethrin collars (Scalibor) also do that.

I sell Scalibor to owners travelling to Leishmania areas. I can't be bothered stocking Advantix because ticks are not much of a problem around where I live.

One thing I keep meaning to check is the basis on which pet shops sell pyrethroid spot-ons for flea treatment. They just don't work. They must have a GSL (General Sales List licence), to be sold at pet shops, but I don't know what evidence of efficacy they would have had to produce for their licence, but in practical reality they seem to have no appreciable effect on household flea problems, whereas Frontline and Stronghold can demonstrably and obviously eliminate fleas very quickly.

Do pet owners here know about the Wet Paper Test? Rub your pets coat over a piece of wetted white paper. Black bits that run red when wet are flea droppings. I grade them 0 to 4+. 4+ means the paper is wall-to-wall flea dirts. You don't see many 4+, but if you stick a Stronghold on them and check again in 2-4weeks they are usually 0 or 1+. Quite amazing. I hardly sell household sprays now.

I qualified in the era of organophosphate flea sprays and pretty much whatever you used on the animal and in the house you never really expected to control the problem.

Hey, but don't trust me I'm a goon of Big Pharma.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
One thing that has not been stated explicitly is that if you want to prevent tick-borne diseases then you need to deter ticks not just kill them.

Bayer's Advantix does that. Deltamethrin collars (Scalibor) also do that.

I sell Scalibor to owners travelling to Leishmania areas. I can't be bothered stocking Advantix because ticks are not much of a problem around where I live.

One thing I keep meaning to check is the basis on which pet shops sell pyrethroid spot-ons for flea treatment. They just don't work. They must have a GSL (General Sales List licence), to be sold at pet shops, but I don't know what evidence of efficacy they would have had to produce for their licence, but in practical reality they seem to have no appreciable effect on household flea problems, whereas Frontline and Stronghold can demonstrably and obviously eliminate fleas very quickly.

Do pet owners here know about the Wet Paper Test? Rub your pets coat over a piece of wetted white paper. Black bits that run red when wet are flea droppings. I grade them 0 to 4+. 4+ means the paper is wall-to-wall flea dirts. You don't see many 4+, but if you stick a Stronghold on them and check again in 2-4weeks they are usually 0 or 1+. Quite amazing. I hardly sell household sprays now.

I qualified in the era of organophosphate flea sprays and pretty much whatever you used on the animal and in the house you never really expected to control the problem.

Hey, but don't trust me I'm a goon of Big Pharma.

p.s. pyrethroid spot-ons licensed for dogs can KILL cats, so don't get too adventurous with amateur prescribing!

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
Hey, but don't trust me I'm a goon of Big Pharma. :D

Thanks, BSM, I was hoping you'd come by here. (BSM is in general practice, so he's far more clued-up on all this than I am, he doesn't have to check the product data sheets! I'm in laboratory diagnostics, so the only time any of my money changes hands for flea preparations is when I get the Program for my cat. Don't let that stop you from assuming I'm a goon of Big Pharma too though!)

The modern preparations are just miraculous compared to what we used to have to use, and so much easier to use too. Rolfe (d. 1992) had a nasty flea allergy, and I had to use horrid sprays that were ceasing to work by the time he died. How much easier things would have been now, with such a good range of products.

Price can be a bit of a problem, but as HC says, shop around. You might even find that your vet is your best bet, as practice profitability isn't solely derived from retail sales. It's better to spend your pennies on the stuff that works, than waste them on useless things you find in pet shops that the fleas have been resistant to for 20 years.

Anyway, my real reason for butting in, BSM. I just had a call from Sandy Trees at Liverpool, urging me and the vet concerned to write up a case we had a couple of weeks ago for the Record. A 10 year old Springer with acute haemolytic anaemia. No, not what you thought. Babesia canis. And the dog DID NOT HAVE A PET PASSPORT AND HAD NEVER BEEN OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

It appears that some ticks in the UK (Prof. Trees thinks probably Dermacentor sp., which are now established here) have become infected with B. canis. This totally changes the ground rules as far as tick protection is concerned. Lyme is nobody's terror, but that dog died within 48 hours despite intensive treatment and someone rushing the imidocarb to Ashford on a motorcycle.

So far, just this one case near Ashford in Kent (gosh, anybody surprised by the location?), but who knows where it will go.

Rolfe.

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by Rolfe
Babesia canis. And the dog DID NOT HAVE A PET PASSPORT AND HAD NEVER BEEN OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

All those years of forgotten parasitology I'll need to relearn!

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
All those years of forgotten parasitology I'll need to relearn! If nothing else it will stop those idiots who think they can run a routine haematology laboratory without looking at blood films dead in their tracks. I've noticed that South African graduates are all a blue streak at making and reading blood films - guess why?

The B. canis wasn't subtle, I'll say that for it.

Rolfe.

[John Bentley]

Originally posted by Rolfe
If nothing else it will stop those idiots who think they can run a routine haematology laboratory without looking at blood films dead in their tracks. I've noticed that South African graduates are all a blue streak at making and reading blood films - guess why?

The B. canis wasn't subtle, I'll say that for it.

Rolfe.

Ha! I knew that living in the swamp of Mobile, AL was good for something. I am exposed on a daily basis to just about every parasite and parasite vector known to man!

Wow, Rolfe, B. canis is rare over there, huh? We see it quite a bit, although it doesn't seem to be terribly lethal. In many dogs, it is an incidental finding, and associated mainly with dogs who have been splenectomized for trauma, hemangiomas, etc.

Sorry about weighing in late, but I just noticed this thread today.

I will say that the most prevalent flea treatments over here (Revolution, Advantage, Frontline) are nerve toxins that work by "paralyzing" one of the active transport gates in the neurons of the parasites. These same gates are not present in mammalian neurons, which is why they are so safe. Adverse effects from these agents are "rare squared" in my experience. The same cannot be said for the over the counter flea products which rely on chemicals (pyrethroids, organophosphates) which are general neurotoxins for anything with a nervous system. If used improperly, they are deadly.

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by John Bentley
Wow, Rolfe, B. canis is rare over there, huh? We see it quite a bit, although it doesn't seem to be terribly lethal. In many dogs, it is an incidental finding, and associated mainly with dogs who have been splenectomized for trauma, hemangiomas, etc.It simply didn't exist in this country at all before the Pet Passport scheme was introduced. One of the perks of being on an island. The ticks weren't infected. (And most of our ticks are Ixodes, which I gather aren't as common a host as Dermacentor or Ripicephalus.) However, the infrastructure was all there, all that was needed was a tick biting an infected dog. And since the parasite is common in northern France, as soon as they started allowing relatively free movement, some people thought it was only a matter of time. Looks like they were right. First we got cases in dogs recently returned form the continent, and now one in a non-travelling dog.

The trouble is, the dog population is completely naive. No genetic adaptation to the infection, and no chance to have built up any immunity. There have been quite a few deaths, including one of the very first pet passport holders to travel, who died six weeks after returning. This dog was extremely sick and died within 48 hours despite treatment.Originally posted by John Bentley
I will say that the most prevalent flea treatments over here (Revolution, Advantage, Frontline) are nerve toxins that work by "paralyzing" one of the active transport gates in the neurons of the parasites. These same gates are not present in mammalian neurons, which is why they are so safe. Adverse effects from these agents are "rare squared" in my experience. The same cannot be said for the over the counter flea products which rely on chemicals (pyrethroids, organophosphates) which are general neurotoxins for anything with a nervous system. If used improperly, they are deadly. OK, that's vet no. 3 singing from the same hymn sheet. Pity we can't compete with graduates of the college of "I tried it so I know it works", and we're all morons. ;)

Rolfe.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by John Bentley
I will say that the most prevalent flea treatments over here (Revolution, Advantage, Frontline) are nerve toxins that work by "paralyzing" one of the active transport gates in the neurons of the parasites. These same gates are not present in mammalian neurons, which is why they are so safe. Adverse effects from these agents are "rare squared" in my experience. The same cannot be said for the over the counter flea products which rely on chemicals (pyrethroids, organophosphates) which are general neurotoxins for anything with a nervous system. If used improperly, they are deadly.

On the cat forum I read, there has been some talk about Hartz flea products being lethal. According to petco, the ingredients in their Advanced Care Flea and Tick drops are:

Ingredients
Active Ingredients: d-phenothrin (CAS# 26002-80-2) 85.7%, (s)-methoprene (CAS# 65733-16-6) 2.9%.
Other Ingredients: 11.4%.

Are those potentially lethal? Hartz used to recommend that the product be placed in a stripe down the cat's spine. Now, it's just placed in one spot between the shoulder blades.

[Rolfe]

I asked around about that one, on an American vet email list, and although I did get one vet saying she had had bad experiences with that product and wouldn't recommend it, there wasn't any general outcry against it, and several people said they thought most of the problem was caused by people using the dog product on cats.

Rolfe.

[Lisa Simpson]

Thanks, Rolfe.

I don't use Hartz, but it's good to know.

[John Bentley]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
On the cat forum I read, there has been some talk about Hartz flea products being lethal. According to petco, the ingredients in their Advanced Care Flea and Tick drops are:

Ingredients
Active Ingredients: d-phenothrin (CAS# 26002-80-2) 85.7%, (s)-methoprene (CAS# 65733-16-6) 2.9%.
Other Ingredients: 11.4%.

Are those potentially lethal? Hartz used to recommend that the product be placed in a stripe down the cat's spine. Now, it's just placed in one spot between the shoulder blades.

The active ingredients are derivatives of pyrethrins. Yes, they are potentially lethal, although not as bad as organophosphates. I owned the local animal emergency service here for 6 years, and we saw a lot of cats with severe toxicosis. Usually from owners using the dog product (which has more of the active ingredients present) on cats, but several seem to have been cat products used properly. The symptoms were what you would expect from a neurotoxin -- seizures, hyperthermia, apnea, coma, death - in that progression, usually.

What is unfortunate is that the pyrethrins have no direct antidote, and you can only give them fluids to "flush them out" along with cooling them off and sedatives to control the seizures. Organophosphates, although more apt to cause problems, have an excellent antidote (atropine).

Cats are more prone to problems for two reasons:
1. They groom themselves and thereby are much more likely to ingest the product in large amounts. Hence the recommendation to place the product where the cat will have a hard time getting to it, i.e. between the shoulder blades. This is really a bit disingenuous because these products depend on the product spreading out over the animal's skin so that the fleas come in contact with it. The cat is eventually going to ingest it, but it is hoped that the dose they ingest will be small, and spread out over time, so that they never reach toxic levels.

2. Cats have truly strange liver metabolism compared to other carnivores. Their tolerance for drugs is very small. Even aspirin is metabolized so slowly that it is poisonous to cats.

[leila]

We used Frontline on our dogs, recently, when we took the sick one to the vet. And we use some kind of flea dust, too.

Does anyone know if using those little orange cattle tags helps? My father swears they do. All you have to do with them is attach them to the collar and they're supposed to kill ticks and stuff....

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by leila
We used Frontline on our dogs, recently, when we took the sick one to the vet. And we use some kind of flea dust, too.

Does anyone know if using those little orange cattle tags helps? My father swears they do. All you have to do with them is attach them to the collar and they're supposed to kill ticks and stuff....

You mean this? (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=1256&N=2001+113379)

I think these have been pretty well debunked. In fact, the FTC is keeping track of such claims.

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/05/fyi0128.htm

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Originally posted by leila
Does anyone know if using those little orange cattle tags helps?

My cats and dogs have never suffered an infestation of cattle so I can't comment. :)

[Debaroo]

Originally posted by Rolfe


And I can only say you're either a twisted cynic, or you've met some very atypical vets. My job involves liaising with my colleagues and helping them sort out their difficult cases, and you simply have no idea how committed the average vet is to doing the best for the animals under his or her care. It's a fact of practice that doing the right thing by your client and your patient should be enough to keep a business healthy. The idea that a vet would advise something harmful and ineffective rather than something cheap and safe and effective, simply to generate profit, is pure libel.

Rolfe.

Kudos Rolfe! As a dog breeder, and one who really appreciates her vet(s) expertise and knowledge, I can't begin to tell you how many animal companion owners get on the bandwagon of how much vets are out to bilk their clients of money and have NO knowledge of anything...why vets are so "controlled" by the big pharma companies. Of course, the bulk of these people also attempt to treat their animals with "magic" water and sugar pills.

[crimresearch]

The idea that a vet would advise something harmful and ineffective rather than something cheap and safe and effective, simply to generate profit, is pure libel.

Yeah....could never happen...just like the impossible notion that a priest could ever violate their sacred oath, or a soldier, teacher, banker, educator, pilot....
And all other those occupations that could never have any miscreants in their ranks.

[leila]

Originally posted by Badly Shaved Monkey
My cats and dogs have never suffered an infestation of cattle so I can't comment. :)


:p

Yup, gotta watch out for those cattle......

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Yeah....could never happen...just like the impossible notion that a priest could ever violate their sacred oath, or a soldier, teacher, banker, educator, pilot....
And all other those occupations that could never have any miscreants in their ranks. Do try to keep up. The complaint is about the generalisation. Every profession and occupation has its share of selfish, uncaring bastards.

However, the commonest problem I find with advising vets on the best way to approach difficult cases is their concern for the client's bank balance. Figuring out the cheapest way to do what's necessary is all part of the day's work. Doing something unnecessary just for the money just isn't in the average vet's mindset.

Rolfe.