The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Nostradamus Commentators?

[Nucular]

Okay, it's often been said on this board that Nostradamus' prophecies can only ever be applied to events after those events have unfolded, and in this sense are not prophecies at all, but simply chimeric verses. This observation is almost universally true, but I'm wondering if there might be any exceptions.

Here's one possibility, which I remembered from having read it years ago as a believer and just thinking at the time "well, of course".

This is taken from my 1989 edition of Erika Cheetham's The Final Prophecies of Nostradamus (this edition published in Britain in 1990, reprinted 1991, but I think the text should be identical to the 1989 edition).Century II
II.LXXXIX

Vn iour ƒeront demis les deux grands maiƒtres,
Leur grand pouuoir ƒe verra augmenté:
La terre neuƒue ƒera en ƒes hauts eƒtres,
Au ƒanguinaire le nombre racompté.

One day the two great leaders will be friends;
Their power will be seen to grow.
The new land will be at the height of its powers.
To the man of blood the numbers are reported.Cheetham says of this quatrain,... When I translated this quatrain in 1978 I put Russia in inverted commas with a question mark. But now is the age of glasnost and Gorbachev and this seems quite acceptable ... Nostradamus also states that the alliance will only last three years and seven months. Will Gorbachev be removed by the other leaders of the Communist party for being too ambitious? We shall see.This, of course, seems to refer to the August Coup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev#Division.2C_Coup_and_Collapse) which did constitute the effective removal of Gorbachev as described:Conservatives in the Soviet leadership launched the August Coup in 1991 in an attempt to remove Gorbachev from power. During this time, he spent three days (August 19 to 21) under house arrest at a dacha in the Crimea before being freed and restored to power. However, upon his return, Gorbachev found that neither union nor Russian power structures heeded his commands as support had swung over to his nationalist rival Boris Yeltsin. Furthermore, Gorbachev was forced to fire large numbers of his Politburo and, in several cases, arrest them. Those arrested for high treason include the "Gang of Eight" that had led the coup ... he later resigned on December 25, 1991So - in 1989, Erika Cheetham, apparently on the strength of her interpretation of a Nostradamus quatrain, successfully predicted the removal of Gorbachev in 1991 by other members of the Communist Party, thereby undermining one of our best arguments against Nostradamus.

Or not....?

[Ossai]

Nucular
Okay, it's often been said on this board that Nostradamus' prophecies can only ever be applied to events after those events have unfolded, and in this sense are not prophecies at all, but simply chimeric verses. This observation is almost universally true, but I'm wondering if there might be any exceptions. No.

Here's one possibility, which I remembered from having read it years ago as a believer and just thinking at the time "well, of course".
Now consider what Nostradamus wrote:
One day the two great leaders will be friends;
Their power will be seen to grow.
The new land will be at the height of its powers.
To the man of blood the numbers are reported.
what Erika Cheetham though it meant:
... When I translated this quatrain in 1978 I put Russia in inverted commas with a question mark. But now is the age of glasnost and Gorbachev and this seems quite acceptable ... Nostradamus also states that the alliance will only last three years and seven months. Will Gorbachev be removed by the other leaders of the Communist party for being too ambitious? We shall see.

and what you are trying to force fit: Gorbachev’s removal from power.

The first is easy to dismiss since Gorbachev wasn’t in power for three years and seven months.
He was President for only two years 1990-91, from http://www.britannica.com/nobel/micro/240_44.html .

Who was supposed to be the second great leader?

It’s all just another attempt to retrofit, badly at that, another Nostradamus prophecy.

Ossai

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Ossai
The first is easy to dismiss since Gorbachev wasn’t in power for three years and seven months.
He was President for only two years 1990-91, from http://www.britannica.com/nobel/micro/240_44.html .True; but surely the point here is more that Nostradamus' alleged suggestion that Gorbachev's power would be cut short, interpreted as mentioned by Cheetham, is the important thing here, rather than whether he got the numbers right? Also, he was leader of the Soviet Union from 1985-1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev) - his election as executive president was into a newly-created office, which didn't continue. Still not three years and seven months though, no.Who was supposed to be the second great leader?]Well I didn't think that too relevant to this particular point so I missed off that part of the commentary, but Cheetham argues that it was the American president. But that's not part of the bit that seems to actually post-date the commentary.It’s all just another attempt to retrofit, badly at that, another Nostradamus prophecy.So yeah. The number was wrong, but the point remains that Cheetham used that information to make an accurate prophecy herself.

Personally, I think stronger grounds for dismissal would be around predictability of the removal of Gorbachev from what was known in 1989 - could it have been predicted from the political climate of the day? I was only 10 in 1989, so I don't really remember much specifically except for the actual news stories in 1991.

I also wonder whether Cheetham's prophecy is too vague to really count, though my gut feeling is that it is specific enough.

[Ossai]

Nucular
True; but surely the point here is more that Nostradamus' alleged suggestion that Gorbachev's power would be cut short, interpreted as mentioned by Cheetham, is the important thing here, rather than whether he got the numbers right? No it’s not. What you are doing is shoehorning Cheetham’s prediction. Yes Cheetham prophecy not Nostradamus.

Since there is nothing uniquely identifiable in Nostradamus’s prophecy, it can be twisted to cover any political/corporate/religious leader. In fact two leaders are mentioned in the prophecy, yet it’s only being tied to one in Cheetham’s ‘interpretation’.

Also, he was leader of the Soviet Union from 1985-1991 - his election as executive president was into a newly-created office, which didn't continue. Still not three years and seven months though, no. While I’m not much older than you. I do remember some of the political commentaries at that time and it wasn’t that much of a surprise. Cheetham was merely playing the odds on picking Gorbachev.

Who was supposed to be the second great leader? Well I didn't think that too relevant to this particular point so I missed off that part of the commentary, but Cheetham argues that it was the American president. But that's not part of the bit that seems to actually post-date the commentary.
Going back to what Nostradamus actually wrote indicates that both lands would share the same fate. I don’t recall an attempted coup in the USA at that time. :)

So yeah. The number was wrong, but the point remains that Cheetham used that information to make an accurate prophecy herself. No, she didn’t. She watched CNN and made some political analysis sound like prophecy. And she even gave herself an out … When I translated this quatrain in 1978 I put Russia in inverted commas with a question mark.

I also wonder whether Cheetham's prophecy is too vague to really count, though my gut feeling is that it is specific enough. Cheetham never actually made a prophecy. She merely tried to link in her readers/viewers mind Gorbachev, Soviet Union and a bit of spotty Nostradamus writing. Then because something did happen with Gorbachev you’re declaring it a prophecy. Linking anything about rising and falling power to a world leader is going to be spot on.
You could link G. W. Bush South Korea and stem cell research together under the same bit of Nostradamus writing and make a fairly accurate prophecy – retro fitted of course.

Ossai

[The Don]

One day the two great leaders will be friends;
Their power will be seen to grow.
The new land will be at the height of its powers.
To the man of blood the numbers are reported.

This could equally be applied to Nixon and Mao Zedong

Meeting for the first time....

Since that date both the U.S. and China have expanded their influence

The new land, is it Taiwan

Didn't the U.S. and China fall out over Vietnam a little while later ?

Retrofitting to the max IMO

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Ossai
Since there is nothing uniquely identifiable in Nostradamus’s prophecy, it can be twisted to cover any political/corporate/religious leader. In fact two leaders are mentioned in the prophecy, yet it’s only being tied to one in Cheetham’s ‘interpretation’.I agree, Nostradamus' prophecy here is, like all of his verses, gloriously vague. Though Cheetham does attempt to clarify the verses by interpreting them in the light of others she believes are relevant - not a method with much going for it, I'm sure you'll agree, but it's not method we're talking about here, it's end product.While I’m not much older than you. I do remember some of the political commentaries at that time and it wasn’t that much of a surprise. Cheetham was merely playing the odds on picking Gorbachev.Well, as I said before, this is a road I'll happily go down, if it can be demonstrated that this was part of the climate of the day. Actually I bet it probably was, but if anybody has any links or anything...?[/b]Going back to what Nostradamus actually wrote indicates that both lands would share the same fate. I don’t recall an attempted coup in the USA at that time. :)[/b]Again, I agree, but this isn't about our interpretations of Nostradamus, it's about Cheetham's.She watched CNN and made some political analysis sound like prophecy. And she even gave herself an out Well, in 1978 she gave herself an out, in 1989 she was a bit less reticent, but still asked it as a question, rather than stating it as a certainty.Cheetham never actually made a prophecy. She merely tried to link in her readers/viewers mind Gorbachev, Soviet Union and a bit of spotty Nostradamus writing. Then because something did happen with Gorbachev you’re declaring it a prophecy. Linking anything about rising and falling power to a world leader is going to be spot on.That's a bit unfair, she wasn't quite so vague - the only ingredients were not "Gorbachev, Soviet Union and a bit of spotty Nostradus writing", she also explicitly mentioned the idea of Gorbachev being removed from power by the other leaders of the Communist party, which is what happened.You could link G. W. Bush South Korea and stem cell research together under the same bit of Nostradamus writing and make a fairly accurate prophecy – retro fitted of course.Yes, of course, but I'm not trying to retrofit Nostradamus, I'm suggesting that Cheetham may have prefitted it.

Like I said, I'll probably buy the idea that she just watched TV for a while and made a stab (though it would be good to see some evidence that this was the climate of the time somehow); but in your post you're claiming both this and that she's being too vague for us to know what she's on about, surely an incompatible suggestion?

I do think, though, that this whole thing uncovers a bit of a problem with the idea - which I've used myself in arguments, incidentally - that it's a valid position to say "Nostradamus is bunk, because no-one has ever made a prediction from his writing that has come true, it's all just retrofitting".

Because it seems from this little exchange that this statement is unfalsifiable, since as soon as someone tries to show that someone has done this, immediately they become the shoehorning retrofitters, simply by default. So how could the statement ever be disproved?

[Nucular]

Originally posted by The Don
This could equally be applied to Nixon and Mao Zedong

Meeting for the first time....

Since that date both the U.S. and China have expanded their influence

The new land, is it Taiwan

Didn't the U.S. and China fall out over Vietnam a little while later ?

Retrofitting to the max IMO Yes, the quatrain itself could apply to any number of things, but Cheetham's statement could not, and was made before the event occurred.

[Kilik]

John Hogue. His book came out before 1999. He successfully predicted the King of Terror.

Also Kevin williams made successful predictions based on EC. China did become " the cradle of christianity as applied in the lives of men."

Hogue's Nostradamus prediction
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa071299.htm

Edgar Cayce
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce11.html

[Kilik]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nos/mrg/nosmrg10.htm

It's clear to me the prophecies are concerning the dates given, important issues concerning mankind's existence and purpose, Hermes, and the league and teachings issued from Hermes, and it's pretty explicit. But that's not to say it isn't also symbolic and poetic, or that I understand all prophecies


Nostradamus, century X

"X 72

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

X 73

The present time together with the past
Will be judged by the great Joker:
The world too late will be tired of him,

X 74

The year of the great seventh number accomplished,
It will appear at the time of the games of slaughter:
Not far from the great millennial age,


X 75

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia:
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East.

X 76

The great Senate will ordain the triumph
For one who afterwards will be vanquished, driven out:
At the sound of the trumpet of his adherents there will be
Put up for sale their possessions, enemies expelled.

X 77

Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

Also to understand further-

"II 27

The divine word will be struck from the sky,
One who cannot proceed any further:
The secret closed up with the revelation,
Such that they will march over and ahead.

II 28

The penultimate of the surname of the Prophet
Will take Diana [Thursday] for his day and rest:
He will wander far because of a frantic head,
And delivering a great people from subjection.

II 29
The Easterner will leave his seat,
To pass the Apennine mountains to see Gaul:
He will transpire the sky, the waters and the snow,
And everyone will be struck with his rod.

"Hermes is the messenger God in Greek myths. He holds a magical rod in his hand that can awaken people from their slumbers. Therefore the “stick” actually refers to the “magical rod,” and it should be translated as “wakened,”


Now my understanding of the full Nostradamus prophecies is far from even close to complete, but this part is generally understood now. That's the big problem, that hardly anyone alive is capable of defining exactly what all the prophecies together from beginning to end, mean as a whole. However, I think it's pretty clear that these are not random BS prophecies. And as was mentioned in another thread, translation issues can come into play too. Or for that matter the limits of communication through speech; especially when the info did not come to Nostradames through speech.

This thread is more clear-
http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10754&highlight=

Hey! No one commited honorable suicide?
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2005/5/26/61219.html

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
John Hogue. His book came out before 1999. He successfully predicted the King of Terror.

...

Hogue's Nostradamus prediction
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa071299.htmFrom that link:John Hogue, author of Nostradamus – The Complete Prophecies and several other books on prophecy, theorized that the “King of Terror” could be the People’s Republic of China and that the “King of the Mongols” it will bring back to life is Genghis Khan. He doesn’t literally mean that the person of Genghis Khan would be resurrected from the dead, but he notes that in 1990, in a major propaganda campaign, the leaders of the People’s Republic of China restored Khan to his “rightful” place in Chinese history. So what’s the significance? “Genghis Kahn united the Mongolians of the Central Asian steppes,” Hogue writes, “into an all-conquering army that forged the largest land empire in history. The vast Islamic western wing of his empire included modern-day Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, and the Central Asian republics of the former Soviet Union. Tens of millions died in the bloody conquests initiated by [Genghis Khan] and his successors. According to the prophet, Genghis Khan and his empire are now returning: the warlord has been brought back to life.”

At the Great King of Terror website (which is no longer working!), they believed the “King of the Mongols” will be a world leader with the military power of Genghis Khan – namely, the Antichrist.Well, my point above was about predictions coming true - this stuff from Hogue is a) clearly a retrofit, as he's basing it in a 199? book on a statue erected in 1990; and b) nothing is identified in 1999 that these vagaries fit particularly well.

Okay, you made me realise that the criticisms of my post might be a bit more valid than I gave them credit for; however, I think the thing by Erika Cheetham has the virtue of being far more specific than Hogue's, well, ramblings (if this article you linked to is any guide).

[Kilik]

Nostadamus was into Psychic stuff, and prophecy. Therefore, is it not most reasonable to conclude his prophecy is concerning well, prophets. Not just ordinary things. What Nostradamus predicted in 1999 almost exactly happened. HOgue identified this before 1999. How is that retrofit? It's not retrofit then.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
[url]this part is generally understood now.Is it? How? Through more retrofitting? That's not what I started this thread to discuss.That's the big problem, that hardly anyone alive is capable of defining exactly what all the prophecies together from beginning to end, mean as a whole.No, the big problem is exactly what's been said above - that Nostradamus' prophecies are simply ambiguous verses which can be twisted to fit various events only after they occur. I was trying to highlight a possible exception to this, but really it was more of an academic exercise, since Cheetham was probably sticking her neck out on the "if it's wrong people will forget, if it's right people will go 'wow'" gamble.However, I think it's pretty clear that these are not random BS prophecies.Oh, I think you forgot to say why you think this ;)And as was mentioned in another thread, translation issues can come into play too. Or for that matter the limits of communication through speech; especially when the info did not come to Nostradames through speech.These elements simply add more layers of ambiguity for credulous or cynical pulp authors to manipulate into whatever they think will sell.

I'm not trying to be dismissive - I started this thread for the exact opposite reason - but I just don't see anything at all in the King of the Mongols prophecies or interpretations that is remotely impressive. It's all just the same old ambiguity.

[Kilik]

Remember, often Nostradamus clearly states the prophecy is concerning the league issued from Hermes trismesgus. 911, WW3, Russia, don't really meet that criteria, their more ordinary, just occurences to an extent

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Nucular
So - in 1989, Erika Cheetham, apparently on the strength of her interpretation of a Nostradamus quatrain, successfully predicted the removal of Gorbachev in 1991 by other members of the Communist Party, thereby undermining one of our best arguments against Nostradamus.



Why would a track record of 1 in 1000 "undermine one of our best arguments against Nostradamus"?


Furthermore, if

"One day the two great leaders will be friends;
Their power will be seen to grow.
The new land will be at the height of its powers.
To the man of blood the numbers are reported."

is the best example we can find of a prediction, then I think the case against supernatural predictions is open and shut.


Originally posted by Nucular
When I translated this quatrain in 1978 I put Russia in inverted commas with a question mark.

I'd love to see the actual page. I wonder if any other countries were listed in the margin (with or without question marks).

[Kilik]

going straight to the hermetic writings, in the final chapters, concerning the "Mystery" teachings-

http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald14bw.html

"List ye now to the unveiling of Mystery.
List to the symbols of Mystery I give.
Make of it a religion for only thus will its essence remain."

"Preserve them and guard them,
hide them in symbols,
so the profane will laugh and renounce.
In every land, form ye the mysteries.
Make the way hard for the seeker to tread.

Thus will the weak and the wavering be rejected.
Thus will the secrets be hidden and guarded,
held till the time when the wheel shall be turned."

or

"List ye, O man, whilst I give the secret so that
ye, too, shalt taste not of change.
One hour each day shalt thou lie
with thine head pointed to the
place of the positive pole (north).
One hour each day shalt thy head be
pointed to the place of the negative pole (south).
Whilst thy head is placed to the northward,
hold thou thy consciousness from the chest to the head.

And when thy head is placed southward,
hold thou thy thought from chest to the feet.
Hold thou in balance once in each seven,
and thy balance will retain the whole of its strength.
Aye, if thou be old, thy body will freshen
and thy strength will become as a youth's.
This is the secret known to the Masters
by which they hold off the fingers of Death.
Neglect not to follow the path I have shown,
for when thou hast passed beyond years
to a hundred to neglect
it will mean the coming of Death."

The " once in each seven" is referring to chakras, and is why all ancient cultivation schools or "mytsery teachings" are concerning Chakras and generally start out facing south.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Why would a track record of 1 in 1000 "undermine one of our best arguments against Nostradamus"?Mainly because if the argument is a "not ONE..." type of argument, and then one example is found, it then has to become a different, kind of "the only ones found are explicable in terms of X" approach.Furthermore, if

"One day the two great leaders will be friends;
Their power will be seen to grow.
The new land will be at the height of its powers.
To the man of blood the numbers are reported."

is the best example we can find of a prediction, then I think the case against supernatural predictions is open and shut.Well yes, but as I stated before it's not really this verse I'm interested in so much, but what someone's said about it. To me, too, it just appears to be an average Barnum-type apply-it-to-anything-you-like quatrainI'd love to see the actual page. I wonder if any other countries were listed in the margin (with or without question marks). I don't have the original 1978 edition. You're probably right.

[Jekyll]

Given the vast number of reinterpretations of Nostradamus. I would be incredably suprised if every prophecies, from any of the interpretations failed to get anything right.

It's a shotgun approach and it in no way validates Nostradamus or the interpretation. You need consistant accuracy for it to be meaningful.

[Kilik]

But that takes someone very very knowledgable. And Nostradamus does indicate what he is talking about. It's not the affairs of ordinary people.

Bottom line, Hogue identified correctly a big part of the meaning of the King of Terror before 1999.

[Timothy]

"One day the two great leaders will be friends;
Their power will be seen to grow.
The new land will be at the height of its powers.
To the man of blood the numbers are reported."

Vn iour ƒeront demis les deux grands maiƒtres,
Leur grand pouuoir ƒe verra augmenté:
La terre neuƒue ƒera en ƒes hauts eƒtres,
Au ƒanguinaire le nombre racompté.

Read the acrostic upwards. "A-L-L-Vn" = "Allun" = "Allen"

Vn iour ƒeront demis les deux grands maiƒtres,
Leur grand pouuoir ƒe verra augmenté:
La terre neuƒue ƒera en ƒes hauts eƒtres,
Au ƒanguinaire le nombre racompté.

Starting at the "P" of "pouuoir" ("Power" the most powerful word in the quattrain), read backwards every second letter, skipping those with ascenders or decenders, or the same letter, and you get P-A-U-L.

Paul Allen. This quattrain is obviously about Paul Allen and Bill Gates. "The two great leaders will be friends." !!!! "Their power will be seen to grow" !!!!!!!! "The new land (Redmond, WA, home of Microsoft) will be at the height of its powers." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "To the man of blood the numbers (profits) are reported." "The man of blood" RED-MAN. RED-MOND! OMG, I can't believe how amazingly accurate this prophecy is!!!!!!!!!!

(Cowers under my desk shaking with amazement while I now devote my whole life to the prophesies of Nostradamus...)

- Timothy

(Edited for minor typos.)

[Timothy]

After my recent "Nostradamarevelation (tm)" I'm going to start trying to decipher this puzzling quattrain.

"In the year of the second millenium and two dozens,
A guy called Phil. Phil Johnson of the Elephant Republic
Will ascend to be leader of the New Strong Country and unleash the War of Fire and End of Days.
Then shall we be truly f*@#ed."

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Jekyll
Given the vast number of reinterpretations of Nostradamus. I would be incredably suprised if every prophecies, from any of the interpretations failed to get anything right.

It's a shotgun approach and it in no way validates Nostradamus or the interpretation. You need consistant accuracy for it to be meaningful. Agreed. I was in no way trying to validate Nostradamus, nor really the interpretation thereof. My point was more about that particular argument which is often used against people who believe in that type of thing, namely that "no-one has ever correctly predicted things before they happened by relying on a Nostradamus quatrain".

Here, I suggest, that may have happened, though we can probably understand it, as stated above, as either the scattergun approach or as an informed guess. Nevertheless, I think as a counterexample it detracts from the weight of the argument (being a "no-one has ever..." kind of an argument), and is also just interesting.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
Bottom line, Hogue identified correctly a big part of the meaning of the King of Terror before 1999. I'm afraid that meaning was kind of lost on me. What did Hogue predict, and what happened in 1999 that fulfilled his prediction?

[Nucular]

Timothy:

Yes, I heartily acknowledge that the Nostradamus quatrain can apply to pretty much anything we want it to (though you've convinced me it predicts Microsoft... have you discovered the quatrain yet that speaks of "pestilence infested wares, softened yet bloated" and of when "the people cry out, but must leave their gold at the gates"? [/makingitup])

But Cheetham's observation is not of this type, since she says "Will Gorbachev be removed by the other leaders of the Communist party for being too ambitious? We shall see." And we did, two years later. Can't read too much else into that, and although we can understand it as an educated guess/scattergun effect, it still, in my mind at least, calls into question the 'absolute' nature of the anti-Nostradamus argument I'm on about. And, after this discussion, makes me wonder about the falsifiability of that argument.

Edited to not make it sound like I think you're all agreeing with me

[Kilik]

This thread is more clear-
http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10754&highlight=

Hey! No one commited honorable suicide?
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2005/5/26/61219.html
http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2004/8/27/chronicle.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#Persecution

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
This thread is more clear-
http://www.infidelguy.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10754&highlight=Argh! That's an 8 page thread, and started with a whole load of upsetting photos of mangled children!

And equally full of your trademark lists of seemingly random links.

Ummm, could you make it any clearer?

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
Hey! No one commited honorable suicide?Is that a crossword clue you're stuck on? How many letters?

[Kilik]

" July 20 1999- The Chinese Communist Party started to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, ransacked their homes, and confiscated their property nationwide, starting with Falun Gong assistants. On the same day, several tens of thousands Falun Gong practitioners who had heard the news went to the National Appeals Bureau to appeal for Falun Gong, but were arrested and detained in Beijing Fengtai Stadium, Shijingshan Stadium, and some other stadiums in the area."

" july 22 1999-The persecution against Falun Gong officially began. The Chinese Communist Party newspaper, People's Daily published a long article entitled, "The Truth about Li Hongzhi" that slandered the founder of Falun Gong. The Ministry of Civil Administration made an official announcement to ban the Falun Dafa Research Association. The Ministry of Public Security announced "Six Prohibitions," including "prohibiting anyone, in any location to hang or post Falun Dafa banners, emblems, pictures and other types of Falun Gong signs; prohibiting anyone from distributing or promoting Falun Gong books, video and audio materials and other types of materials; prohibiting people from gathering to practice Falun Gong, promote Falun Gong, or engage in any other type of Falun Gong activities on any occasion; prohibiting the use of meditation, appeal, and other methods to protect or promote Falun Gong in gatherings, marches, or demonstrations; prohibiting anyone from making up or distorting facts, deliberately spreading rumors, or using other methods to stir up and damage societal order; prohibiting anyone from organizing, connecting with, or leading activities that are against the government's decisions." The Chinese Communist Party's Central Committee officially announced that, "The Communist Party members are forbidden to practice Falun Dafa." The Chinese Police nationwide continued to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, or abducted Falun Gong practitioners to local police stations, where they were made to watch brainwashing TV programs. The police also continued to ransack Falun Gong practitioners' homes, confiscated their Falun Gong books, burned Falun Gong books, videotapes, audio materials, etc. In the meantime, millions of Falun Gong practitioners began to walk towards Beijing and local government offices to peacefully appeal for Falun Gong. They ended up being either dispersed or arrested."

[Kilik]

I read on a website a couple days ago that some thought the exact date was July 4, but I wonder if there is anything to those sites understandings, if it could be 22

[Nucular]

Okay, so the Chinese Commie Nazis persecuted the Falun Gong.

Where did those paragraphs come from? Any comment to add, or are they supposed to speak for themselves?

[Kilik]

I remember there were also show trials at the time, of the more dedicated advanced practitioners.

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2004/8/27/chronicle.html

[Ashles]

I have less than no idea what point Kilik is trying to make at this stage.

Oh look! Kittens! (http://kmgerich.com/archive/kittens.jpg)

[Garrette]

Originally posted by Kilik:
But that takes someone very very knowledgable.
No.

If they were legitimate prophecies it would merely take someone who can read.

As they are, it takes someone with a vast credulity and a willingness to twist to fit and to ignore other, equally plausible explanations.
Originally posted by Kilik:
And Nostradamus does indicate what he is talking about.
Yes, he indicates it quite well throughout his writings.

He’s talking about nonsense.
Originally posted by Kilik:
It's not the affairs of ordinary people.
Nor of any other type of people.

Let’s all say it together: Only special people like me can interpret the great man’s meanings. You simple, ordinary folk must take me at my word.
Bottom line, Hogue identified correctly a big part of the meaning of the King of Terror before 1999.
He did nothing of the sort.

[Garrette]

Originally posted by Ashles:

I have less than no idea what point Kilik is trying to make at this stage.

Don't worry. Neither does Kilik.

[Kilik]

Whatever. I've made it as clear as I can. This particular prophecy is pretty straightforward. You can say what you want about "special" but Nostradamus explicitly states that it's concerning the league issued form Hermes Trismesgus.


John Hogue identified a major part of the "King of Terror" before 1999 and I don't see how you can deny that.


It has also been mentioned that it is a translation of symbolic and poetic prophecy, so it would take someone quite knowledgable to interpret the precise meaning of every Century from begginning to end

"The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck."

July 1999 is specifically stated

"King of Terror"- CCP Jiang Zemin

"Mars"- Marxism, communisim

"by good luck"- in the name of social stability and bring benefits to the people

The Great redeemer and the one "issued from the league of Hermes"- Mr. Li Hongzhi and Falun Dafa

"Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

"John Hogue, author of Nostradamus – The Complete Prophecies and several other books on prophecy, theorized that the “King of Terror” could be the People’s Republic of China and that the “King of the Mongols” it will bring back to life is Genghis Khan. He doesn’t literally mean that the person of Genghis Khan would be resurrected from the dead, but he notes that in 1990, in a major propaganda campaign, the leaders of the People’s Republic of China restored Khan to his “rightful” place in Chinese history. So what’s the significance? “Genghis Kahn united the Mongolians of the Central Asian steppes,” Hogue writes, “into an all-conquering army that forged the largest land empire in history. The vast Islamic western wing of his empire included modern-day Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, and the Central Asian republics of the former Soviet Union. Tens of millions died in the bloody conquests initiated by [Genghis Khan] and his successors. According to the prophet, Genghis Khan and his empire are now returning: the warlord has been brought back to life.”


" July 20 1999- The Chinese Communist Party started to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, ransacked their homes, and confiscated their property nationwide, starting with Falun Gong assistants. On the same day, several tens of thousands Falun Gong practitioners who had heard the news went to the National Appeals Bureau to appeal for Falun Gong, but were arrested and detained in Beijing Fengtai Stadium, Shijingshan Stadium, and some other stadiums in the area."

" July 22 1999-The persecution against Falun Gong officially began. The Chinese Communist Party newspaper, People's Daily published a long article entitled, "The Truth about Li Hongzhi" that slandered the founder of Falun Gong. The Ministry of Civil Administration made an official announcement to ban the Falun Dafa Research Association. The Ministry of Public Security announced "Six Prohibitions," including "prohibiting anyone, in any location to hang or post Falun Dafa banners, emblems, pictures and other types of Falun Gong signs; prohibiting anyone from distributing or promoting Falun Gong books, video and audio materials and other types of materials; prohibiting people from gathering to practice Falun Gong, promote Falun Gong, or engage in any other type of Falun Gong activities on any occasion; prohibiting the use of meditation, appeal, and other methods to protect or promote Falun Gong in gatherings, marches, or demonstrations; prohibiting anyone from making up or distorting facts, deliberately spreading rumors, or using other methods to stir up and damage societal order; prohibiting anyone from organizing, connecting with, or leading activities that are against the government's decisions." The Chinese Communist Party's Central Committee officially announced that, "The Communist Party members are forbidden to practice Falun Dafa." The Chinese Police nationwide continued to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, or abducted Falun Gong practitioners to local police stations, where they were made to watch brainwashing TV programs. The police also continued to ransack Falun Gong practitioners' homes, confiscated their Falun Gong books, burned Falun Gong books, videotapes, audio materials, etc. In the meantime, millions of Falun Gong practitioners began to walk towards Beijing and local government offices to peacefully appeal for Falun Gong. They ended up being either dispersed or arrested."

Now, most Nosradamus students interpreted the exact day as July 4, based on some interpretation of a number of 2 and 2. As you can see above, the exact date was actually July 22 not 4.

[Kilik]

Interesting. Here are some prophecies a little bit before the July 1999 prophecy

X 55
The unfortunate nuptials will be celebrated
In great joy but the end unhappy:
Husband and mother will slight the daughter-in-law,
The Apollo dead and the daughter-in-law more pitifu

X 56
The royal prelate his bowing too low,
A great flow of blood will come out of his mouth:
The Anglican realm a realm pulled out of danger,
For long dead as a stump alive in Tunis.



X 58
In the time of mourning the feline monarch
Will make war upon the young Macedonian:
Gaul to shake, the bark to be in jeopardy,
Marseilles to be tried in the West a talk.


X 60

I weep for Nice, Monaco, Pisa, Genoa,
Savona, Siena, Capua, Modena, Malta:
For the above blood and sword for a New Year's gift,
Fire, the earth will tremble, water an unhappy reluctance.

X 62
Near "Sorbia" to assail Hungary,
The herald of "Brudes" (dark ones?) will come to warn them:
Byzantine chief, Salona of Slavonia,


BUt here's the specific ones. 1999

July 1999

X 72

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

X 73

The present time together with the past
Will be judged by the great Joker:
The world too late will be tired of him,

X 74

The year of the great seventh number accomplished,
It will appear at the time of the games of slaughter:
Not far from the great millennial age,


X 75

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia:
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East.

X 76

The great Senate will ordain the triumph
For one who afterwards will be vanquished, driven out:
At the sound of the trumpet of his adherents there will be
Put up for sale their possessions, enemies expelled.

X 77

Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

There's so much to the Nostradamus Prophecy, I can see why it's might be best avoided, lol. You could spend hours reading and interpreting them, Days even

[Kilik]

:eek:


century II

70
The dart from the sky will make its extension,
Deaths speaking: great execution.

[Nucular]

Kilik, this is just retrofitting.

According to the information you've supplied, the only "meaning" (???) Hogue supplied to the "King of Terror" was that Nostradamus meant Genghis Khan.

You then leap to "China did some bad stuff in 1999", and call fulfilment of the prophecy.

To help you be clearer, since you're obviously having a struggle, can you cut and paste this handy form, and fill it in as appropriate?

Before 1999, Hogue wrote:_________________________________

In 1999, this happened:_________________________________

This is a fulfilment of Hogue's interpretation because:_________________________________

[Kilik]

Century 10 66

"The chief of London through the realm of America,
The Isle of Scotland will be tried by frost:
King and Reb will face an Antichrist so false,
That he will place them in the conflict all togeth"

I don't know the precise meaning , but it shows that America was somehow mentioned. Like it appears missiles were in the previous post

[Kilik]

More interesting quotes from this page
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/titan.htm

Century 1, Quatrain 87
Earth-shaking fire from the center of the Earth.
Will cause the towers around the New City to shake:
Two great rocks for a long time will make war,
And then Arethusa will color a new river red.

Century 2, Quatrain 89
One day the two great leaders will become friends,
Their great power will be seen to increase:
The new land will be at the height of its power,
To the bloody one the number reported.

Century 4, Quatrain 16
The free city of Liberty made servile,
Made an asylum for corrupt ones and dreamers:
The King changed, to them not so vehement:
From one hundred will become more than a thousand.

Century 5 Quatrain 65
Suddenly arrived, the terror will be great,
The principal players in the affair are hidden away:
And the lady in the hot coals will no longer be in sight,
Thus little by little will the great ones will be angered.

Century 6, Quatrain 97
At five and forty degrees, the sky will burn,
Fire approaches the great new city,
Immediately a huge, scattered flame leaps up,
When they want to have verification from the Normans.

Century 8, Quatrain 17
Those at ease will suddenly be cast down
The world put into trouble by three brothers,
The enemies will seize the marine city,
Famine, fire, blood, plague, all evils doubled.

Century 8, Quatrain 59
Two times put high, two times put low,
The East also the West will weaken:
Its adversary after several battles,
Driven out by sea will fail at the time of need.

[Kilik]

1.Before 1999, Hogue wrote:________________________________

“King of Terror” could be the People’s Republic of China and that the “King of the Mongols” it will bring back to life is Genghis Khan. He doesn’t literally mean that the person of Genghis Khan would be resurrected from the dead, but he notes that in 1990, in a major propaganda campaign, the leaders of the People’s Republic of China restored Khan to his “rightful” place in Chinese history. "

"At the Great King of Terror website (which is no longer working!), they believed the “King of the Mongols” will be a world leader with the military power of Genghis Khan – namely, the Antichrist."

2.In 1999, this happened:_________________________________

" July 20 1999- The Chinese Communist Party started to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, ransacked their homes, and confiscated their property nationwide, starting with Falun Gong assistants. On the same day, several tens of thousands Falun Gong practitioners who had heard the news went to the National Appeals Bureau to appeal for Falun Gong, but were arrested and detained in Beijing Fengtai Stadium, Shijingshan Stadium, and some other stadiums in the area."

" july 22 1999-The persecution against Falun Gong officially began. The Chinese Communist Party newspaper, People's Daily published a long article entitled, "The Truth about Li Hongzhi" that slandered the founder of Falun Gong. The Ministry of Civil Administration made an official announcement to ban the Falun Dafa Research Association. The Ministry of Public Security announced "Six Prohibitions," including "prohibiting anyone, in any location to hang or post Falun Dafa banners, emblems, pictures and other types of Falun Gong signs; prohibiting anyone from distributing or promoting Falun Gong books, video and audio materials and other types of materials; prohibiting people from gathering to practice Falun Gong, promote Falun Gong, or engage in any other type of Falun Gong activities on any occasion; prohibiting the use of meditation, appeal, and other methods to protect or promote Falun Gong in gatherings, marches, or demonstrations; prohibiting anyone from making up or distorting facts, deliberately spreading rumors, or using other methods to stir up and damage societal order; prohibiting anyone from organizing, connecting with, or leading activities that are against the government's decisions." The Chinese Communist Party's Central Committee officially announced that, "The Communist Party members are forbidden to practice Falun Dafa." The Chinese Police nationwide continued to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, or abducted Falun Gong practitioners to local police stations, where they were made to watch brainwashing TV programs. The police also continued to ransack Falun Gong practitioners' homes, confiscated their Falun Gong books, burned Falun Gong books, videotapes, audio materials, etc. In the meantime, millions of Falun Gong practitioners began to walk towards Beijing and local government offices to peacefully appeal for Falun Gong. They ended up being either dispersed or arrested."

3.This is a fulfilment of Hogue's interpretation because:_________________________________

He interpreted the King of Terror before 1999.

It is also in line with the exact date most interpreters predicted, July 4, having to do with 2+2. The actual precice date was July 22

Nostradamus, century X

"X 72

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

X 73

The present time together with the past
Will be judged by the great Joker:
The world too late will be tired of him,

X 74

The year of the great seventh number accomplished,
It will appear at the time of the games of slaughter:
Not far from the great millennial age,


X 75

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia:
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East.

X 76

The great Senate will ordain the triumph
For one who afterwards will be vanquished, driven out:
At the sound of the trumpet of his adherents there will be
Put up for sale their possessions, enemies expelled.

X 77

Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

"One of the league issued from the great Hermes,"

Some interpret the Great Terror actually as Great Redeemer, and some have even interpeted as the return of Christ. If "Great redeemer" is most correct, then the great redeemer and one issued from the leaugue of the great Hermes" , Mr. Li Hongzhi

[Ashles]

Absolutely fascinating.

Now could you tell us what is going to happen next? You know in the future? As opposed to trying to crowbar relevence into past events?

No?

[Kilik]

and it is in line with Edgar Cayce also

"8 so that where there has been
those of a frigid or the semi-tropical will become the more
tropical, and moss and fern will grow. And these will begin
in those periods in '58 to '98, when these will be proclaimed
as the periods when His light will be seen again in the
clouds. As to times, as to seasons, as to places, ALONE is
it given to those who have named the name - and who bear the
mark of those of His calling and His election in their
bodies. To them it shall be given.


As to those things that deal with the mental of the earth,
these shall call upon the mountains to cover many. As ye
have seen those in lowly places raised to those of power in
the political, in the machinery of nations' activities, so
shall ye see those in high places reduced and calling on
the waters of darkness to cover them. And those that in the
inmost recesses of theirselves awaken to the spiritual truths
that are to be given, and those places that have acted in
the capacity of teachers among men, the rottenness of those
that have ministered in places will be brought to light,
and turmoils and strifes shall enter. And, as there is
the wavering of those that would enter as emissaries, as
teachers, from the throne of life, the throne of light, the
throne of immortality, and wage war in the air with those of
darkness, then know ye the Armageddon is at hand. For with
the great numbers of the gathering of the hosts of those
that have hindered and would make for man and his weaknesses
stumblingblocks, they shall wage war with the spirits of
light that come into the earth for this awakening; that have
been and are being called by those of the sons of men into
the service of the living God. For He, as ye have been told,
is not the God of the dead, not the God of those that have
forsaken Him, but those that love His coming, that love His
associations among men - the God of the LIVING, the God of
Life! For, He IS Life."


"10. Who shall proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord in him
that has been born in the earth in America? Those from that
land where there has been the regeneration, not only of the
body but the mind and the spirit of men,"


"THEY shall come and
declare"


". I have declared this, that has been delivered unto me to
give unto you, ye that sit here and that hear and that see a
light breaking in the east, and have heard, have seen thine
weaknesses and thine faultfindings, and know that He will
make thy paths straight if ye will but live that YE KNOW this
day - then may the next step, the next word, be declared unto
thee. For ye in your weakness [pause] have known the way,
through that as ye have made manifest of the SPIRIT of truth
and light that has been proclaimed into this earth, that has
been committed unto the keeping of Him that made of Himself
no estate but who brought into being all that ye see manifest
in the earth, and has declared this message unto thee: "Love
the Lord thy God with all thine heart," and the second is
like unto it, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Who is thine
neighbor? Him that ye may aid in whatsoever way that he, thy
neighbor, thy brother, has been troubled. Help him to stand
on his own feet. For such may only know the acceptable way.
The weakling, the unsteady, must enter into the crucible and
become as naught, even as He, that they may know the way. I,
Halaliel, have spoken."
http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/edgar_cayce.htm

" Cayce predicted that the so-called "Battle of Armageddon" described symbolically in the Bible would begin in 1999. Cayce foresaw that this "battle" will not be a war fought on earth. Rather, it will be a spiritual struggle between the "higher forces of light" and "lower forces of darkness" for 1000 years of earth time. The reason for this struggle is to prevent souls from lower afterlife realms from reincarnating to earth. By preventing souls from the lower afterlife realms from reincarnating to earth, only enlightened souls will be permitted to reincarnate. The result will be 1000 years of building a world of peace and enlightenment. After 1000 years, souls from lower afterlife realms will be permitted once again to reincarnate to earth. By this time, the so-called "kingdom of heaven" will have been established on earth."
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce11.html

[Ashles]

So it's a 'no' then.

[Kilik]

Originally posted by Ashles
Absolutely fascinating.

Now could you tell us what is going to happen next? You know in the future? As opposed to trying to crowbar relevence into past events?

No?

True prohecy concerning right here right now, the current time
http://www.think-aboutit.com/Spiritual/edgar_cayce.htm
http://www.keysofenoch.org/html/giza_update.html

History to repeat itself?
http://www.climatehotmap.org/
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/global_warming/index.cfm

more on how prophecy is not abslolute, if righteous beings come, and are one with Divine Law, some disasters can be postponed lessened or eliminated

http://wrightworld.net/edgar.htm

EC on the future
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce11.html

If you're asking me personally, for certain, I only know a bit. Major Earth Changes, and a lot of death. The world will be rebuilt and will then need spiritual teachers

But right now is the time of the wheel being turned towards the human realm. Now is the time for humans to practice turning the great wheel

[Ashles]

No.

Right. Got it.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
3.This is a fulfilment of Hogue's interpretation because:_________________________________

He interpreted the King of Terror before 1999.Thanks for clarifying, Kilik.

But unfortunately, the train of logic is exactly as I stated previously,Kilik, this is just retrofitting.

According to the information you've supplied, the only "meaning" (???) Hogue supplied to the "King of Terror" was that Nostradamus meant Genghis Khan.

You then leap to "China did some bad stuff in 1999", and call fulfilment of the prophecy.Hogue simply wasn't at all specific in his interpretation, he just named a country, after mentioning a year, which may or may not have been connected.

Then, it's up to his faithful believers to find some bad stuff that country did in that year. It could just as easily have been pretty much any other country, especially (unfortunately) in the East, where human rights abuses and persecution are very common, and have been throughout history.

So I appreciate your clarification, but unfortunately it spelt the end for your claim.

[Garrette]

Originally posted by Kilik:

Whatever. I've made it as clear as I can.
I believe you.

That's the point.

Originally posted by Kilik:

This particular prophecy is pretty straightforward.
Not in the slightest, as Nucular and I have pointed out.

[Ashles]

Oh this Cayce guy is hilarious!

Prediction 1:
The year the battle of Armageddon will occur in the spirit realm (may be happening already)

Cayce predicted that the so-called "Battle of Armageddon" described symbolically in the Bible would begin in 1999. Cayce foresaw that this "battle" will not be a war fought on earth. Rather, it will be a spiritual struggle between the "higher forces of light" and "lower forces of darkness" for 1000 years of earth time.

So the battle of Armageddon started and we've all missed it!
He makes a prediction about the ultimate in Battles, the date comes and goes, nothing happens so all the morons say "Well Duh! Nothere obviously. No the battle is happening, you just can't see it."
Oh okay. Well I'll just continue ignoring the Battle of Armageddon then if it's okay by you.
It is currently impacting my life rather less than moving my Mother In Law into her new flat at the moment so I'll just concentrate on that.

Prediction 2
The year of the second coming of Christ (may have already happened)
... It is more logical and more realistic for Jesus to make his entrance the same way he did in his previous life - rebirth. For this reason, I believe that Jesus has indeed returned just as Cayce foresaw. If my theory is true then it means that Jesus is currently living on earth as a young child.
Okay, we're all busy people, but this is just downright careless of us.
Sure we might have missed the Battle of Armageddon, but missing the Second Coming too - it's just making us look bad.
I swear the world will end and we'll miss that as well.
Because it is obviously impossible that Cayce could get anything wrong ever.

Prediction 3
A new field of science will be developed based on a psychic/spiritual phenomenon
Might be slightly wishful thinking on the part of Cayce, but we'll see.

Prediction 4
A new discovery in astronomy will occur
Cayce provided a major clue that astronomers have not yet taken up: the discovery of the revolution of the solar system around a star system composed of Arcturus and the Pleiades.

Well yes, a new dicovery in astonomy at some point in the future is quite likely I should imagine. I think I could have predicted that one.
And I love the implication here that the selfish astronomers have wilfully and naughtily ignored Cayce's instructions to "Search that bit of sky intently because I have a hunch about it".
Jeez, Ja Mein Fuhrer!

Prediction 5
There is a possibility of a World War III
Cayce foresaw the possibility of a third world war. He spoke of strife arising near the Davis Straits, and in Libya, and in Egypt, in Ankara, and in Syria; through the straits around those areas above Australia, in the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf.
So if WWIII starts it will start in the clearly predicted area of... somewhere on Earth. Thanks Ed.
There's going to be a lot going on soon - does this War happen after Jesus' second coming?
If so then what does Jesus actually achieve by his return? - I thought everything was supposed to be great after the second coming, not a nuclear holocaust.

Prediction 6
Major archeological discoveries concerning human origins will be found
Cayce predicted that there will be three profound archeological discoveries of a very ancient and important nature that will revolutionalize the way we understand human origins, cosmology and religion. Cayce stated that this will occur when humanity reaches a higher level of spirituality. The three repositories mentioned are in Egypt (near the Great Pyramid), the Bimini area (where the possible portion of Atlantis has already been discovered), and the Yucatan (the location where the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs).
Wow, pyramids, Atlantis and dinosaurs in the same prediction? This one surely needs to be made into a film - it'd be great. All it needs is robots.
And Bimini might have once been popular amongst Atlantis folklorists, but it's well out of date now.

Prediction 7
China will become a Christian nation
Well if we witness the second coming I think most people might become Christians. That's the kind of evidence even a sKeptic would have trouble dismissing.

Prediction 8
Volcanic activity will proceed major earthquakes
Yes this is a known fact. Sometimes that does indeed happen. Not really much of a prediction.

Prediction 9
General doom and gloom predictions about environmental disasters
The planet is geologically active, and has an ever changing ecosphere, so massive changes are inevitable. It's not 'if', it's 'when'.
No more a prediction than "Dropped apples will fall to the ground".


So overall B+ for effort, but Z- for accuracy or usefullness. And having no dates. And for ignoring failed prophecies, and pretending that they happened anyway. And being stupid. And stating the obvious.

[Kilik]

Originally posted by Nucular
Thanks for clarifying, Kilik.

But unfortunately, the train of logic is exactly as I stated previously,Hogue simply wasn't at all specific in his interpretation, he just named a country, after mentioning a year, which may or may not have been connected.


He got the right country,regime, and almost basically the right person. Seeing as Jiang Zemin came in right before they "resuurected" Genghis Khan supposedky in 1990. In that sense Jiang is a pawn of the CCP, in another sense the CCP is a pawn of Jiang's. And the prediction happened. I really don't know a whole lot about Hogue, but his interpretation of the King of "Terror" WAS correct. That's pretty specific. And then basically exactly what Nostradamus said happended from there



Originally posted by Nucular

Then, it's up to his faithful believers to find some bad stuff that country did in that year. It could just as easily have been pretty much any other country, especially (unfortunately) in the East, where human rights abuses and persecution are very common, and have been throughout history.

So I appreciate your clarification, but unfortunately it spelt the end for your claim.

It's not "bad stuff", it is very precisely what Nostradamus said, not "bad stuff", but

"X 76

The great Senate will ordain the triumph
For one who afterwards will be vanquished, driven out:
At the sound of the trumpet of his adherents there will be
Put up for sale their possessions, enemies expelled.

X 77

Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

ANd second there is no other country anywhere in the world with someone who is,
"One of the league issued from the great Hermes,"

"X 75

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia:
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East."

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Originally posted by Kilik
Some interpret the Great Terror actually as Great Redeemer, and some have even interpeted as the return of Christ. If "Great redeemer" is most correct, then the great redeemer and one issued from the leaugue of the great Hermes" , Mr. Li Hongzhi

From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/falungong1.htm

According to the New York Times, Li Hongzhi said that: "...interracial children are the spawn of the 'Dharma Ending Period,' a Buddhist phrase that refers to an era of moral degeneration. In an interview last year, he said each race has its own paradise, and he later told followers in Australia that, 'The yellow people, the white people, and the black people have corresponding races in heaven.' As a result, he said, interracial children have no place in heaven without his intervention."


Beliefs: As noted below, homosexuality is degenerate behavior, on a par with sexual promiscuity.
- As noted below, illness is caused by the indwelling of "an intelligent entity that exists in another dimension."
- The body's vital energy, Qi, can be focused to improve one's health and sense of well being. But it can also "be used to develop the ability to fly, to move objects by telekinesis, and to heal diseases." 12
- "...the Falun, or Dharma Wheel, and is described by Mr. Li as a miniature of the cosmos that he says he installs telekinetically in the abdomens of all his followers, where it rotates in alternating directions, throwing off bad karma and gathering qi. Many Falun Gong adherents say they can feel the wheel turning in their bellies." 13
- Eighty-one previous human civilizations had achieved a higher level of scientific achievement than we enjoy at the present time. However, they were all "left in complete destruction." 12
- A person with qigong training can walk through solid objects, like a wall.
- A qigong master emits "gong:" a "high-energy substance that manifests in the form of light."
- Individuals with some qigong training can exhibit super-human abilities: clairaudience, telepathy, precognition, etc. But it takes a qigong master to achieve certain functionality, like alchemy -- the ability to transform one type of substance to another. The latter could tear down a large building using mental power only. They would never do this in practice, because it is forbidden for them to demonstrate their powers. Also, such destruction would cause harm. 10


Damnit. I was really hoping that Christ would come back as a nicer guy, and not such a whack-job. Oh well.

-Ripley 29

[Kilik]

Originally posted by Ashles
Oh this Cayce guy is hilarious!

So the battle of Armageddon started and we've all missed it!
He makes a prediction about the ultimate in Battles, the date comes and goes, nothing happens so all the morons say "Well Duh! Nothere obviously. No the battle is happening, you just can't see it."
Oh okay. Well I'll just continue ignoring the Battle of Armageddon then if it's okay by you.
It is currently impacting my life rather less than moving my Mother In Law into her new flat at the moment so I'll just concentrate on that.

No, it was in the news a fair bit in 1999


Originally posted by Ashles

Okay, we're all busy people, but this is just downright careless of us.
Sure we might have missed the Battle of Armageddon, but missing the Second Coming too - it's just making us look bad.
I swear the world will end and we'll miss that as well.
Because it is obviously impossible that Cayce could get anything wrong ever.

No don't worry. Remember Jesus only taught from age 30 to 33, so if he was born in 78 or 98, we would not know yet. Really though, 98 refers to the date that the lineage and teachings of Jesus would be made available to the public for the first time in known history, that does not mean it would be done by him though


Originally posted by Ashles

Well yes, a new dicovery in astonomy at some point in the future is quite likely I should imagine. I think I could have predicted that one.
And I love the implication here that the selfish astronomers have wilfully and naughtily ignored Cayce's instructions to "Search that bit of sky intently because I have a hunch about it".
Jeez, Ja Mein Fuhrer!


EC would have meant an important one, not just anyone. What discovery? I don't know, don't know all that much about astronomy



Originally posted by Ashles

So if WWIII starts it will start in the clearly predicted area of... somewhere on Earth. Thanks Ed.
There's going to be a lot going on soon - does this War happen after Jesus' second coming?
If so then what does Jesus actually achieve by his return? - I thought everything was supposed to be great after the second coming, not a nuclear holocaust.

It does not say it will happen, it says it could. In 1940 it was very possible.
It is not only Cayce who predicted major disasters such as WW3 or a comet catastrophe. These kind of predictions are in the bible, revelations, and other prophecies such as Hopi. The COmet and WW3 have been averted since 1993

Originally posted by Ashles

Wow, pyramids, Atlantis and dinosaurs in the same prediction? This one surely needs to be made into a film - it'd be great. All it needs is robots.
And Bimini might have once been popular amongst Atlantis folklorists, but it's well out of date now.

Yeah, there are more interesting finds nowadays around Bimini and near areas


Originally posted by Ashles

Well if we witness the second coming I think most people might become Christians. That's the kind of evidence even a sKeptic would have trouble dismissing.

This is a misunderstanding. Jesus was not a christian. There was no christianity at the time. Jesus was most likey an Essene

Cayce envisioned a future where China would be the:
"the cradle of Christianity as applied in the lives of men."

On the surface of it, this prediction appears to completely improbable. This prediction of Cayce's has stumped a lot of people who are not familiar with the Cayce material. Some critics use this prediction to show that Cayce is fallible. The answer to these critics is that, first of all, Cayce has already been shown to be less than 100% in his predictions and there is no reason to believe that a person with Cayce's ability have to be perfect in their predictions. This aside, those who are more knowledgeable about the Cayce material knows that the brand of Christianity that Cayce affirmed to be the highest form of Christianity is not modern or traditional Christianity, but rather Gnostic Christianity. This sect of Christians possessed the secret teachings of Jesus that he did not reveal to the general public.

Gnostic Christianity resembles Buddhism more than it does traditional Christianity because it involves reincarnation, the divine light within, and concepts that can found in near-death experiences.

One of the most respected scholars on the subject of Gnosticism is Elaine Pagels. She noted that the similarities between Gnosticism and Buddhism have prompted some scholars to question their interdependence and to wonder whether "...if the names were changed, the living Buddha appropriately could say what the Gospel of Thomas attributes to the living Jesus." Although intriguing, she rightly maintains that the evidence is inconclusive, since parallel traditions may emerge in different cultures without direct influence. Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels, (New York: Random House, 1979, repr. 1989), xx-xxi

Since the Chinese communist government has stopped its cultural war against religion and democracy and lifted the restriction on the practice of Buddhism, I see no reason to doubt that Chinese Buddhism will one day become the "Cradle of Christianity."

This is totally in line with Nostradamus' 1999 prediction.

Therefore Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce were speaming of some of the same things



Originally posted by Ashles

The planet is geologically active, and has an ever changing ecosphere, so massive changes are inevitable. It's not 'if', it's 'when'.
No more a prediction than "Dropped apples will fall to the ground".


So overall B+ for effort, but Z- for accuracy or usefullness. And having no dates. And for ignoring failed prophecies, and pretending that they happened anyway. And being stupid. And stating the obvious.

I don't think he means any earthquake, or any old earth changes.

I'm not pretending anything. I'm not making anything up or force fitting, only trying to interpret as accurately as possible.

[Kilik]

" According to the New York Times, Li Hongzhi said that: "...interracial children are the spawn of the 'Dharma Ending Period,' a Buddhist phrase that refers to an era of moral degeneration. In an interview last year, he said each race has its own paradise, and he later told followers in Australia that, 'The yellow people, the white people, and the black people have corresponding races in heaven.' As a result, he said, interracial children have no place in heaven without his intervention."

That's a very twisted interpretation with selective quoting. However, note that EC and Mr. Li's tradition say the exact same thing as far a human origin. Mr. Li is not racsist and anyone can practice Falun Gong. He does not look at the skin color, but the person's heart. That interpretation is not really in the spirit of Falun Dafa.

No one has a place in heaven apart from second wavers, or very high level beings who came to help and save trapped first wavers. Yet. EC prophecy explains this. The first wavers have not been saved yet. NOt by Jesus, not by anybody. However only now today , in this day and age, can the masses, first wavers, and ordinary people cultivate back to there origin and original nature. Lucifer is the human mind, and the human body is polarized into male female. Notice an Angel is sexless, or rather the sexes are internal. This was all planned for this day and time, and after the great changes at our doorstep. From 10,000 BC to now, only the subconciouss mind was cultivated and saved when saviors came. The Hermetic writing mention this issue, to gaurd the mystery teachings privately until now. And it would be a turning wheel when the mystery teaching are revealed publically

This article about Edgar Cayce explains. ANd the origin of the human species is soooooo similar to Mr. Li's tradition.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce03.html

I wouldn't say that Mr. Li is necessarily Jesus Christ, Buddha, or any specific past person. Christ may return after the great changes.

ALso, abilties like alchemy are accepted by tons of people in China. THe very famous Qigong master YAn Xin is known for this abiltiy and was tested by the Chinese government long ago. Not that anything they say is reliable. But you cannot criticize others in China . There is specific policy of no mention, no criticism. However, of course it's not always followed exactly. Really, these abilities are not important for high level Falun Dafa cultivation and only lead to attachments, pursuing abilities is a waste of time if you want high level. However, tons of people are most interested in abilities and phenomena, and they will just want to focus on that, things like PSI, and forget about cultivation methods like Falun Dafa

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
He got the right country,regime, and almost basically the right person.Well... let's run what you quoted as Hogue's interpretation again...“King of Terror” could be the People’s Republic of China and that the “King of the Mongols” it will bring back to life is Genghis Khan. He doesn’t literally mean that the person of Genghis Khan would be resurrected from the dead, but he notes that in 1990, in a major propaganda campaign, the leaders of the People’s Republic of China restored Khan to his “rightful” place in Chinese history. "

"At the Great King of Terror website (which is no longer working!), they believed the “King of the Mongols” will be a world leader with the military power of Genghis Khan – namely, the Antichrist."Where does he mention the regime of the 1999 action? I only see him refer to the leaders who had already "resurrected Genghis Khan", as you term it. Where does he mention the person?Seeing as Jiang Zemin came in right before they "resurrected" Genghis Khan supposedky in 1990. In that sense Jiang is a pawn of the CCP, in another sense the CCP is a pawn of Jiang's. And the prediction happened.What prediction? If you mean Nostradamus' prediction, then that's just retrofitting. And you can't possibly mean Hogue's, since he hasn't said anything that constituted one.I really don't know a whole lot about Hogue, but his interpretation of the King of "Terror" WAS correct. That's pretty specific.You cannot possibly claim, with a straight face, that what Hogue said was "pretty specific". What he said, about the future, amounts to "China... er, that's it". How is that specific??And then basically exactly what Nostradamus said happended from thereAnd then we're back to retrofitting the original Nostradamus verses.

Edited for formatting

[Ashles]

Originally posted by Kilik
No, it was in the news a fair bit in 1999
The Battle of Armageddon was in the news?
Blatant assertation doesn't make something incorrect suddenly correct.
Stop being so silly.

Or else provide some links to news coverage of the Battle.

No don't worry. Remember Jesus only taught from age 30 to 33, so if he was born in 78 or 98, we would not know yet. Really though, 98 refers to the date that the lineage and teachings of Jesus would be made available to the public for the first time in known history, that does not mean it would be done by him though
But his birth was marked by alignment of stars in the sky!
Communications these days are just slightly better than they were when Jesus was (it is claimed) born.
Again I think a virgin birth and astronomical anomolies might have been noted. Any links for that?
Plus is there any reason Jesus won't teach us anything until he hits 30?

EC would have meant an important one, not just anyone. What discovery? I don't know, don't know all that much about astronomy
How do you know what Cayce meant? That's rather presumptuous of you.
And no doubt an important dscovery will be made in the field of astronomy at some point. It's happened before it'll happen again.

It does not say it will happen, it says it could. In 1940 it was very possible.
It is not only Cayce who predicted major disasters such as WW3 or a comet catastrophe. These kind of predictions are in the bible, revelations, and other prophecies such as Hopi. The COmet and WW3 have been averted since 1993
You see, here it appears that you are confusing predictions with guessing.
I can make thousands of predictions about what 'could' happen, and I'll be right some of the time and wrong others. This is called guessing and anyone can do it. Anything 'could' happen, but if a guy makes a load of predictions and some come true and some don't why exactly do you think he is worthy of paying attention to? He's just... guessing.
And war is the easiest prediction of all. It's a constant feature of our history.

Yeah, there are more interesting finds nowadays around Bimini and near areas
Like what? Any examples?

This is a misunderstanding. Jesus was not a christian. There was no christianity at the time. Jesus was most likey an Essene
I never mentioned what Jesus himself was. I am talking about those who witness the miracles of Christ and followed his teachings. They are called Christians.
So your point makes no sense.

Cayce envisioned a future where China would be the:
"the cradle of Christianity as applied in the lives of men."

On the surface of it, this prediction appears to completely improbable. This prediction of Cayce's has stumped a lot of people who are not familiar with the Cayce material. Some critics use this prediction to show that Cayce is fallible.
That's not actually tremendously hard. The Battle of Armageddon one is just clearly incorrect. Denying it just demonstrates the lengths people will go to to continue believing a cherished theory.

The answer to these critics is that, first of all, Cayce has already been shown to be less than 100% in his predictions and there is no reason to believe that a person with Cayce's ability have to be perfect in their predictions.
This is still called 'guessing' in everyone else's book.

This aside, those who are more knowledgeable about the Cayce material knows that the brand of Christianity that Cayce affirmed to be the highest form of Christianity is not modern or traditional Christianity, but rather Gnostic Christianity. This sect of Christians possessed the secret teachings of Jesus that he did not reveal to the general public.
Oh a secret. So we'll just have to accept whatever is said?
An I thougt Jesus died to save all mankind - not just a secret tiny sect who get all the real teachings.
More nonsense.

Gnostic Christianity resembles Buddhism more than it does traditional Christianity because it involves reincarnation, the divine light within, and concepts that can found in near-death experiences.
So it differs from the Bible then? Fine, lets make up another religion. Why not.

One of the most respected scholars on the subject of Gnosticism is Elaine Pagels. She noted that the similarities between Gnosticism and Buddhism have prompted some scholars to question their interdependence and to wonder whether "...if the names were changed, the living Buddha appropriately could say what the Gospel of Thomas attributes to the living Jesus." Although intriguing, she rightly maintains that the evidence is inconclusive, since parallel traditions may emerge in different cultures without direct influence. Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Gospels, (New York: Random House, 1979, repr. 1989), xx-xxi

Since the Chinese communist government has stopped its cultural war against religion and democracy and lifted the restriction on the practice of Buddhism, I see no reason to doubt that Chinese Buddhism will one day become the "Cradle of Christianity."
Reeeeallly had to stretch to accomodate that prediction didn't they?

This is totally in line with Nostradamus' 1999 prediction.

Therefore Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce were speaming of some of the same things
No, but a nice attempt.

I don't think he means any earthquake, or any old earth changes.

I'm not pretending anything. I'm not making anything up or force fitting, only trying to interpret as accurately as possible.
Accurately??? You are changing entirely the inference and meaning of what he said to try and make it not blatantly incorrect.

Really, seriously, this is just silly now.
Anyone who honestly believes this stuff has something of a developing problem. they wouldn't find it possible for Cayce to be incorrect, no matter what he said or predicted.

He was just a single man who got a little carried away with his own ideas and opinions, and made lots of guesses.
I find it a little depressing that people can take such stupidity seriously.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Ashles
Prediction 4
A new discovery in astronomy will occur
Cayce provided a major clue that astronomers have not yet taken up: the discovery of the revolution of the solar system around a star system composed of Arcturus and the Pleiades.

Well yes, a new dicovery in astonomy at some point in the future is quite likely I should imagine. I think I could have predicted that one.
And I love the implication here that the selfish astronomers have wilfully and naughtily ignored Cayce's instructions to "Search that bit of sky intently because I have a hunch about it".

Funny. :D

That "bit of sky" separating Arcturus and M45 is quite large, better than 131° from our perspective. Arcturus (http://www.solstation.com/stars2/arcturus.htm) is located in Boötes, and the Pleiades (http://www.seds.org/messier/m/m045.html) in Taurus, and they're separated by ~400 LY.

One of the sites (http://www.crystalinks.com/arcturus.html) Kilik seems to like states:

Edgar Cayce in his channelings said that Arcturus is one of the most advanced civilizations in this galaxy. It is a fifth-dimensional civilization and the prototype for Earth's future. Its energy works as an emotional, mental, and spiritual healer for humainty. It is also an energy gateway through which humasn pass during death and re-brith. It functions as a gateway station for nonphysical consciousness to become accustomed to physicality.

Despite Cayce's apparent fondness for the "Arcturians," "Atlanteans," and other fairy-tale civilizations, these celestial objects do not compose a star system.

[Kilik]

Originally posted by Nucular
Well... let's run what you quoted as Hogue's interpretation again...Where does he mention the regime of the 1999 action? I only see him refer to the leaders who had already "resurrected Genghis Khan", as you term it. Where does he mention the person?What prediction?


It is the same party, same leaders isn't it? The CCP and Jiang Zemin. That's the king of terror. That's who Hogue said it was

Originally posted by Nucular

If you mean Nostradamus' prediction, then that's just retrofitting. And you can't possibly mean Hogue's, since he hasn't said anything that constituted one.You cannot possibly claim, with a straight face, that what Hogue said was "pretty specific". What he said, about the future, amounts to "China... er, that's it". How is that specific??And then we're back to retrofitting the original Nostradamus verses.



There's no "fitting" at al. It says what it says. ANd if you understand it to be talking about CHina, well it's pretty clear what July 1999 is talking about.

""X 76

The great Senate will ordain the triumph
For one who afterwards will be vanquished, driven out:
At the sound of the trumpet of his adherents there will be
Put up for sale their possessions, enemies expelled.

X 77

Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

ANd second there is no other country anywhere in the world with someone who is,
"One of the league issued from the great Hermes,"

"X 75

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia:
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East."

Pretty explicit as far as I can tell

John Hogue said before 1999 that the King of Terror is CCP, or PRC.

So from there it is clear he is expecting them to do somethign very historically important. And they did exactly, exactly, exactly what Nostradamus said they would do. So hogue's prediction is pretty good and correct and did happen.

Where is the retro fitting. Or any "fitting" of any kind.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Ashles
The Battle of Armageddon was in the news?You mean you don't remember??

[Nucular]

Doppelpost, as they say in Deutschland

[Kilik]

The battle of Amageddan, prophesiced by EC and the Bible is this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#Persecution

EC prophecy
"As to those things that deal with the mental of the earth,
these shall call upon the mountains to cover many. As ye
have seen those in lowly places raised to those of power in
the political,"

Jiang Zemin

"And those that in the
inmost recesses of theirselves awaken to the spiritual truths
that are to be given"

The Buddha nature, or Christ concioussness neing awakened. Wanting to cultivate, having the heart for the Tao

"and those places that have acted in
the capacity of teachers among men, the rottenness of those
that have ministered in places will be brought to light,
and turmoils and strifes shall enter. And, as there is
the wavering of those that would enter as emissaries, as
teachers, from the throne of life, the throne of light, the
throne of immortality, and wage war in the air with those of
darkness, then know ye the Armageddon is at hand. For with
the great numbers of the gathering of the hosts of those
that have hindered and would make for man and his weaknesses
stumblingblocks, they shall wage war with the spirits of
light that come into the earth for this awakening; that have
been and are being called by those of the sons of men into
the service of the living God. For He, as ye have been told,
is not the God of the dead, not the God of those that have
forsaken Him, but those that love His coming, that love His
associations among men - the God of the LIVING, the God of
Life! For, He IS Life."

1999

"And these will begin
in those periods in '58 to '98, when these will be proclaimed
as the periods when His light will be seen again in the
clouds."

Maybe "his light' could refer to The Christ. Or another high level being then.


"as to places, ALONE is
it given to those who have named the name - and who bear the
mark of those of His calling and His election in their
bodies. To them it shall be given."

[Garrette]

Kilik, I respectfully suggest that you step back from what you're posting for a bit and read it more slowly.

You seem to go in the same circles. I'll use the "King of Terror" quatrain to demonstrate:

Kilik: This is specific. Hogue says something about it before 1999.

Skeptics: It's not specific. Hogue doesn't say anything but generalities and most of it can apply to many things. He's also wrong about the year since Genghis Khan was "brought back" in 1990 and not 1999.

Kilik: It's specific. Hogue says something about it before 1999. Oh, by the way, here are more links.

Skeptics: Your links are general and don't apply. Hogue hasn't said anything that ties the quatrain to 1999 or even to the CCP or Jemin. Neither did Nostradamus.

Kilik: This is specific. So is Hogue.


I'm not being facetious nor am I trying to be rude, but this is exactly what you're doing.

Your efforts with Cayce are even worse.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Kilik
It is the same party, same leaders isn't it? The CCP and Jiang Zemin. That's the king of terror. That's who Hogue said it wasHogue said nothing of the kind! All he said was "China" - it's you who's gone the extra mile to argue that, since when Hogue wrote a certain regime was in, he must have meant that one - if he'd meant it he'd have said it!There's no "fitting" at al. It says what it says. ANd if you understand it to be talking about CHina, well it's pretty clear what July 1999 is talking about.Then why didn't Hogue say it before it happened?<snip long, vague Nostradamus quotation>

Pretty explicit as far as I can tellYou and I seem to have somewhat different definitions of "explicit". And "prophecy". And "said".John Hogue said before 1999 that the King of Terror is CCP, or PRC.PRC=People's Republic of China=the country "China". This is all Hogue said. China. He mentioned no regime, and certainly didn't mention Jiang Zemin.So from there it is clear he is expecting them to do somethign very historically important. And they did exactly, exactly, exactly what Nostradamus said they would do. So hogue's prediction is pretty good and correct and did happen."Something historically important"? I predict that the USA will do "something historically important" next year - if they do, will you donate to my 'prediction fund' so I can produce some more?Where is the retro fitting. Or any "fitting" of any kind. Yes, I think I've seen the attempt at retrofitting, but I've yet to see the actual "fitting" as regards the 1999 quatrains too.

Edited for stuff

[Kilik]

Originally posted by Garrette


Skeptics: It's not specific. Hogue doesn't say anything but generalities and most of it can apply to many things. He's also wrong about the year since Genghis Khan was "brought back" in 1990 and not 1999.



Where does Hogue say 1990 is 1999. You said he said that, not him. He's was saying as far as I can tell, the resurection of Genghis Kahn is a foreshadow to 1999. I mean, I'm not trying to try your patience either, but I am sure Hogue is familiar with the prophecy, and knows the difference between 90 and 99. Jiang Zemin, as far as I know, came in in around 1990.

[Kilik]

"He doesn’t literally mean that the person of Genghis Khan would be resurrected from the dead, but he notes that in 1990, in a major propaganda campaign, the leaders of the People’s Republic of China restored Khan to his “rightful” place in Chinese histor"

I don't see anything which specifically contradicts this. It is basically correct and is line with the prophecy, in ressuerecting Genghis Kahn shows the type of party they are, and what they will do in the future. They will not put up with peaceful spiritual groups in such a great country! This all goes together . This would imply they're gonna do something along the lines of arrests and persecution in 1999. It implies this, because it follows the NOstradamus quatrain which mentions exact dates. Noone would think 1990 is 99, that WOULD be a stretch. Fortunately there is stretching or "fitting"

""At the Great King of Terror website (which is no longer working!), they believed the “King of the Mongols” will be a world leader with the military power of Genghis Khan – namely, the Antichrist."

There's a more simple explanation, without any Genghis Kahn symbology or meaning

Hogue might not know the difference between CCP and PRC for all we know! I think it implies the same party as 1999 and 90, that would be the assumption given his statement.

I predict nothing important will ever happen in the history of the US, between the time of George washington and ABraaham Lincoln, and the great earth changes. I could be wrong though.

[Kilik]

Originally posted by Nucular
but I've yet to see the actual "fitting" as regards the 1999 quatrains too.


How much more perfect can a prophecy 400 years ago in a different language possibly be????????

Nostradamus, century X

"X 72

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.

X 73

The present time together with the past
Will be judged by the great Joker:
The world too late will be tired of him,

X 74

The year of the great seventh number accomplished,
It will appear at the time of the games of slaughter:
Not far from the great millennial age,


X 75

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia:
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East.

X 76

The great Senate will ordain the triumph
For one who afterwards will be vanquished, driven out:
At the sound of the trumpet of his adherents there will be
Put up for sale their possessions, enemies expelled.

X 77

Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

Also to understand further-

"II 27

The divine word will be struck from the sky,
One who cannot proceed any further:
The secret closed up with the revelation,
Such that they will march over and ahead.

II 28

The penultimate of the surname of the Prophet
Will take Diana [Thursday] for his day and rest:
He will wander far because of a frantic head,
And delivering a great people from subjection.

II 29
The Easterner will leave his seat,
To pass the Apennine mountains to see Gaul:
He will transpire the sky, the waters and the snow,
And everyone will be struck with his rod.

"Hermes is the messenger God in Greek myths. He holds a magical rod in his hand that can awaken people from their slumbers. Therefore the “stick” actually refers to the “magical rod,” and it should be translated as “wakened,”

" July 20 1999- The Chinese Communist Party started to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, ransacked their homes, and confiscated their property nationwide, starting with Falun Gong assistants. On the same day, several tens of thousands Falun Gong practitioners who had heard the news went to the National Appeals Bureau to appeal for Falun Gong, but were arrested and detained in Beijing Fengtai Stadium, Shijingshan Stadium, and some other stadiums in the area."

" july 22 1999-The persecution against Falun Gong officially began. The Chinese Communist Party newspaper, People's Daily published a long article entitled, "The Truth about Li Hongzhi" that slandered the founder of Falun Gong. The Ministry of Civil Administration made an official announcement to ban the Falun Dafa Research Association. The Ministry of Public Security announced "Six Prohibitions," including "prohibiting anyone, in any location to hang or post Falun Dafa banners, emblems, pictures and other types of Falun Gong signs; prohibiting anyone from distributing or promoting Falun Gong books, video and audio materials and other types of materials; prohibiting people from gathering to practice Falun Gong, promote Falun Gong, or engage in any other type of Falun Gong activities on any occasion; prohibiting the use of meditation, appeal, and other methods to protect or promote Falun Gong in gatherings, marches, or demonstrations; prohibiting anyone from making up or distorting facts, deliberately spreading rumors, or using other methods to stir up and damage societal order; prohibiting anyone from organizing, connecting with, or leading activities that are against the government's decisions." The Chinese Communist Party's Central Committee officially announced that, "The Communist Party members are forbidden to practice Falun Dafa." The Chinese Police nationwide continued to arrest Falun Gong practitioners, or abducted Falun Gong practitioners to local police stations, where they were made to watch brainwashing TV programs. The police also continued to ransack Falun Gong practitioners' homes, confiscated their Falun Gong books, burned Falun Gong books, videotapes, audio materials, etc. In the meantime, millions of Falun Gong practitioners began to walk towards Beijing and local government offices to peacefully appeal for Falun Gong. They ended up being either dispersed or arrested."

The exact date was 2 and 2. MOst Nostradamus student interpeted as July 4. It was July 22

[Garrette]

Here is the quatrain:

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror.
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.
All further quotations originally posted by Kilik except where noted:
Where does Hogue say 1990 is 1999. You said he said that, not him. He's was saying as far as I can tell, the resurection of Genghis Kahn is a foreshadow to 1999.
The quatrain says the seventh month of 1999.

Genghis Khan was restored in 1990.

Correlating actions of a non-Mongolian Chinese leader in 1999 to the restoration of Genghis Khan is the same as conflating 1999 to 1990.

So, yes, I say it. Because it’s what Hogue does.
I mean, I'm not trying to try your patience either,
I appreciate that.
but I am sure Hogue is familiar with the prophecy,
Undoubtedly. What he seems not to be familiar with is logic, consistency, and rationality.
and knows the difference between 90 and 99.
One would think. Which leaves one wondering why he conflates them.
Jiang Zemin, as far as I know, came in in around 1990.
You’re wrong. Brief timeline:

1987: Became member of Politburo

1989: Became General Secretary of the Communist Party

1993: Became President

Even if you were right, you would be reinforcing my position and not yours. The quatrain says 1999. If the key date for Zemin is 1990, you can’t claim he is the King of Terror.
"He doesn’t literally mean that the person of Genghis Khan would be resurrected from the dead, but he notes that in 1990, in a major propaganda campaign, the leaders of the People’s Republic of China restored Khan to his “rightful” place in Chinese histor"
Yep. The Genghis Khan thing happened in 1990.

The quatrain mentions 1999.

How much more clear need it be?

I don't see anything which specifically contradicts this.
Then you’ve blinded yourself.
It is basically correct and is line with the prophecy,
9 years off.
in ressuerecting Genghis Kahn shows the type of party they are, and what they will do in the future.
It show what they will do in the future?

Please outline it for us. More specifically than Nostradamus or Hogue.
They will not put up with peaceful spiritual groups in such a great country! This all goes together and fits together.
Pray tell what was different in 1999 in China from 1998 or 2000. What year was Tianmen? (Hint: Not 1999)
This would imply they're gonna do something along the lines of arrests and persecution in 1999.
And, of course, they have made no arrests and have persecuted no one in any year beside 1999.
It implies this, because it follows the NOstradamus quatrain which mentions exact dates.
Pick a month and year anytime between 1950 and now. Do it randomly.

Then see if you can find examples of arrests and persecutions in China.

Hint: You can.
Noone would think 1990 is 99, that WOULD be a stretch.
Glad you admit it.

Why then do you allow Hogue to get away with suggesting that something that occurred in 1990 fulfills a prediction for 1999?
Fortunately there is stretching or "fitting"
I suspect you left out the word “no,” but on the off chance you typed what you meant, then it’s good of you to admit this, too.

""At the Great King of Terror website (which is no longer working!), they believed the “King of the Mongols” will be a world leader with the military power of Genghis Khan – namely, the Antichrist."
Go back to this site, Kilik, and count the many and competing interpretations of this quatrain they give. And they’re a pro Nostradamus site.

Hogue might not know the difference between CCP and PRC for all we know! I think it implies the same party as 1999 and 90, that would be the assumption given his statement.
This has no meaning in context.

[Garrette]

Originally posted by Kilik:

How much more perfect can a prophecy 400 years ago in a different language possibly be????????
Apparently not any more perfect at all.

Which is to say: none of them predict anything.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by Garrette
Undoubtedly. What he seems not to be familiar with is logic, consistency, and rationality.

Yep. Speaking of consistency... remember season 1, episode 5 (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=eow) of Penn & Teller's show:


James Randi: I've read just about everything that John Hogue has written, particularly this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0007140924/qid=1117076740/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/102-0804798-2709702?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), Nostradamus and the millennium -- very attractive book. We have on page 124, he names the antichrist, and the antichrist he names as Khomeini, the Ayatollah Khomeini. Shortly after that, the Ayatollah died, so he didn't fulfill his duty to be the antichrist. Ahh, but that doesn't stop John Hogue, he doesn't pause for a second. He writes a second edition, looks the same, oh, just about the same because when we look in here, oh -- gee, the Ayatollah isn't in here any more. Who has suddenly become the antichrist? Saddam Hussein. You can't rewrite your books after the predictions don't happen. But John Hogue apparently thinks that's kosher. Apparently he thinks you can do that. I don't think so.

[Garrette]

Thanks, Wolverine.

Well, Kilik? How shall we deal with this revelation about Hogue?

[Ripley Twenty-Nine]

Originally posted by Kilik
How much more perfect can a prophecy 400 years ago in a different language possibly be????????

Nostradamus, century X

"X 72

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror:
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.


OK, first of all, stop reposting the same text over and over again. If we really wanted to read these quatrains, we can go back in the post history and read it outselves.

Second of all, here's Hogue's translation of the quatrain:
"In July of 1999, there will be a powerful ruler in China. He will be the King of Terror. He will resurrect Ghengis Kahn."

Here's what actually happened:
"In July of 1999, the ruling party in China, using force, decided to disband a religious movement."

Here's what you are inferring after the fact:
"That must mean that the ruling party in China is the King of Terror. That must mean that the leader of this religious movement is Christ returning to earth. That must mean that in taking this drastic action against this religious movement, that China's ruling party is reenacting the ruling style of Ghengis Kahn, therefore 'resurrecting' him."

That's an awful lot to infer. That is far from a 'perfect' interpretation. Kilik, what we're pointing out are facts. You are shoehorning an interpretation after the fact.. Plain and simple.

-Ripley 29

[Kilik]

Originally posted by Garrette
Here is the quatrain:

The year 1999, seventh month,
From the sky will come a great King of Terror.
To bring back to life the great King of the Mongols,
Before and after Mars to reign by good luck.
All further quotations originally posted by Kilik except where noted:

The quatrain says the seventh month of 1999.

Genghis Khan was restored in 1990.

Correlating actions of a non-Mongolian Chinese leader in 1999 to the restoration of Genghis Khan is the same as conflating 1999 to 1990.

So, yes, I say it. Because it’s what Hogue does.


The next quatrains say what it is this quatrain is about. Jiang Zemin came about right before the symbolic event mentioned by Hogue . It's a SYMBOLIC EVENT, inferring a build up to 1999. That's how I take what Hogue is saying. That's not conflating, because the PRC did what was predicted it would do. Same guy too, Jiang Zemin, that's pretty much a correct prediction. CCP uses Jiang( and gengis kahn in propaganda), and then Jiang uses CCP( resurects gengis kahn's evil in life)

Originally posted by Garrette

Undoubtedly. What he seems not to be familiar with is logic, consistency, and rationality.

One would think. Which leaves one wondering why he conflates them.


No, you're making him out to be an idiot who can't count. Now I have never read a book by this John Hogue, but I can assume he can count, and see it's not him who is conflating things or counting in a funny order. Nosrtradamus said 1999 but somehow Hogue means 1990? You're saying that not him.


Originally posted by Garrette

You’re wrong. Brief timeline:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Garrette
[B]
1987: Became member of Politburo

1989: Became General Secretary of the Communist Party

1993: Became President

Even if you were right, you would be reinforcing my position and not yours. The quatrain says 1999. If the key date for Zemin is 1990, you can’t claim he is the King of Terror.

Of course I can. WHo is president in 1999?

No one said 1990 but you so far. Nostradamus explicitly states 1999??????????

Actually, this is where you're not paying attention. Nostradamus says
"X 75

Long awaited he will never return
In Europe, he will appear in Asia:
One of the league issued from the great Hermes,
And he will grow over all the Kings of the East.

X 76

The great Senate will ordain the triumph
For one who afterwards will be vanquished, driven out:
At the sound of the trumpet of his adherents there will be
Put up for sale their possessions, enemies expelled.

X 77

Banished, their possessions given their adversaries:
All their benefits will be taken as misdeeds,
Fleet dispersed, delivered to the Corsairs."

So he explicitly states he is refferring to arrest and persecutions of those of the league issued from Hermes Trismesgus. This means the "Mystery Teaching"

If you didn't notice, the propping up of Jiang and the symbolic propping up of Genghis Kahn, occur in THE SAME almost EXACT PERIOD OF HISTORY

Therefore there was, in REALITY, a connection between the resurrection of genghis kahn, both sybolically in 1990, and in principle and practice in reality in 1999 in the persecution predicted by Nostradamus.The CCP props up Genghis Kahn and Jiang Zemin. A direct REAL connection, the CCP and Jiang Zemin


Originally posted by Garrette

Yep. The Genghis Khan thing happened in 1990.

The quatrain mentions 1999.

How much more clear need it be?


WHich makes Hogues prediction of PRC being the "King of Terror" a correct prediction. They did what he AND Nostradamus predicted