Why are Marxists more accepted?

I don't get it. Maybe someone against the war who thinks the large anti-war protests are nothing more than that can explain it to me.

There is a proponderance of evidence that these protests are put on by Marxists. I have posted plenty of that evidence. I could provide additional evidence all the live long day. And this is not a small number of people at work. It is a very large number. All of this is undeniable. And the lies they are passing along are laughable and pathetic. And yet they are unchallenged by the anti-war people. Despite all the evidence I provided, I doubt many, if any, anti-war people on here have even bothered to check that evidence for themselves in the fear that they may find I am right.

If self-proclaimed fascists were to put on an event, they would be immediately, and rightly, associated with Hitler, and rightly scorned.

Yet the history of Marxism makes Hitler look like a choir boy. So why aren't Marxists, and the events they organize, equally, if not more, reviled?

Start at ANSWER's web site. It isn't hard to trace their ties to the rest of the coalition putting on these protests. They conveniently provide the names and some links of their fellow travellers. And those links lead to more. And they all contain outrageous claims stated as fact. And they all contain serious anti-American vitriolic articles. It is as plain as the nose on your face.

Read their articles and marvel at the shallowness of their claims. Laugh at the humorousness of such statements like:


IFCO/Pastors for Peace invites its members, supporters and friends to join together with those of the Venceremos Brigade in exercising our right to freedom of belief and travel. In July 2003, the two organizations will travel to Cuba to express fellowship with our Cuban brothers and sisters, especially the elders, and to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the beginning of the Revolution!

They are exercising their right to freedom of belief and travel by going to......CUBA!

Come on!

This is who is putting on your anti-war protests.

I challenge everyone against the war to see for themselves. Go to ANSWER and see for yourself. The Korea Truth Commission. The International Action Center. And so on. All fronts for the WWP. See for yourself. See what is really going on behind these protests.

How can you accept this? How can you turn a blind eye to it? How can you allow these vile people to hijack your beliefs?

I don't care if you are against the war. I do care that people flock to the Marxist banner to express it. That is some scary stuff.

[Supercharts]

Christianity is a form of Marxism. Actually all religion is Marxist.

Originally posted by Supercharts
Christianity is a form of Marxism. Actually all religion is Marxist.

Aside from the fact this has nothing to do with the topic, is the Christian movement in America blatantly anti-American?

And Marxism is an athiest philosophy.

[a_unique_person]

I went to a war demo, and the Marxists were there. These days, they are a curiosity more than anything else. I don't believe they organised the demo, though. From what I could tell, it was a coalition of the some churches, trade unions, leftist groups, minor political parties and yes, perhaps the odd of Marxist or two.

The vast majority of people were just ordinary everyday people, and they weren't suddenly getting zapped by mind bending rays that would turn them into Marxist drones. They were there to show there concern for war.

[EvilYeti]

The only people I've seen taking part in protests are Marxists and their cadre of ignorant "useful idiots". I think this subset of "intelligent protestors" you are attempting to address does not exist.

[jj]

Originally posted by LukeT


Aside from the fact this has nothing to do with the topic, is the Christian movement in America blatantly anti-American?

And Marxism is an athiest philosophy.

1) SOME of the Christian movement is anti-American, the extremes of it literally violently so. Now, these people self-label themselves as Christian, I can't see how they fit in with what the man himself is alledged to say at all.

2) Marxism is a religion based on the idea that human beings will continue to work as hard as possible even when completely unrewarded for any fruits of their effort.

Marxism may be officially atheist, but that's only because deism would conflict with its own beliefs. Both are the "opiate of the masses" simply because of the beliefs that they put forth.

Neither stands up to examination.

[jj]

Oh, and who thinks Marxists are "more accepted".

Face it, they're a joke. Their religion of a political philosophy is shown to be hopelessly impossible to make work. Their supporters have given up and become capitalists.

No, they're ignored. The term is "has-beens". I'm sure some of the cranks will come out with new ideas about how to spread "Marxism" but it's going to be a tough road to hoe given the USSR going bankrupt and China doing its best to modernize its economy and provide individual control.

North Korea and Cuba are all that's left for the Marxist. They know their time is passed, and so does everyone else.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I went to a war demo, and the Marxists were there. These days, they are a curiosity more than anything else. I don't believe they organised the demo, though. From what I could tell, it was a coalition of the some churches, trade unions, leftist groups, minor political parties and yes, perhaps the odd of Marxist or two.

The vast majority of people were just ordinary everyday people, and they weren't suddenly getting zapped by mind bending rays that would turn them into Marxist drones. They were there to show there concern for war.
I have said this repeatedly.
I challenge anyone to find a "Marxist." In person.
Anyone who is threatened by them is looking for a real straw man. Just ask the FBI.
What don't have any real enemies, like hunger, disease, racism, fascism?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by subgenius

I have said this repeatedly.
I challenge anyone to find a "Marxist." In person.
Anyone who is threatened by them is looking for a real straw man. Just ask the FBI.
What don't have any real enemies, like hunger, disease, racism, fascism?

Here in Australia, they are around, although their numbers are getting pretty small now, and they classify themselves as 'green left'. That is, the pure Marxism of the past is dead. Now it appears to be more a case of, 'how left can we be and still retain some credibility', for people wanting to side with the radical left.

I can ask them how they view themselves if you want. They still turn up to sell newspapers on the street sometimes. I haven't actually ever seen them sell one, though.

More worrying is the Lyndon Larouche people who are more prevalent than the Marxists, these days.

[Gem]

In my opinion, "Marxist" is a philosophy.
If anyone read the communist manifesto, you'd find the assumption to be out of whack. So are a lot of other philosophies.
But the government system that was suppose to be created failed. The "dictatorship of the proaletarean" (However you spell it) is suppose to be temporary. The "temporary dictator" should tell everyone what to do (good things, of course:rolleyes: ) and then remove military, police agencies and let people do whatever they want. All of which is suppose to be Utopia, never lacking anything.
But, we have to remember the time it was written, like any book. 19th century, in Western Europe (not russia). Industrialism was a taking hold, and a-many laborers were in poor working conditions, lousy pay, no health care, etc. There were revolts (also in america in after teh civil war, with unions). People were fed up with conditions. Communist looked like a good idea to someone who digged coal all his life.
However, "communist" never existed, but it's real life counter part, socialism, started to be a new vision by which people thought the world worked (like captialist).
Socialism visionaries tend to think the government tries to do the best it can, with available information, to benefit as many people. Regulations, Unions, free health care and welfare are some of its ideas. Yes, America has socialist programs, it's called Medi Care, and damn some people are happy. China and Canada have socialist leaning governments right now, but canada can change it's system and china is reforming.
On the other hand, capitalist think that government (even democracies), think that government is corrupt and acts for its own interests (or companies' interest, sometimes). They see the "market" and the "invisible hand" as a good tool to make as many people happy and benficial to society. I doubt I need to give capitalist examples to Americans, since some of them have thier own private business (like my High school science teacher).
Neither one is bad, but both sides view it as better. Personally I tend to lean to socialist programs (like free health care) because it benefits more people. There are good arguments on both sides.

To the original thread: Marxist, like any Utopian philosophies, will always have it's followers. "Marxist" are as accepted as "National Socialists" about everywhere. Radicals, right or wrong, will beleive that their vision is right, no matter what.

But I don't think people care what those organizations think. They're there to protest the war, not start a communist revolution in America (Okay, some are, but it's the random guy/gal in the crowd). Now that the war is almost over, people are going back to their regular life. They're not all going to be Marxist because of that.

Gem

P.S.: yes, I am a socialist, but please do not call me a communist, because I do not beleive that this sort of system (the dictatorship) works. And red is not my favorite color.:o :D
If you'd like to debate the merits of socialist, it's another thread, I just stated my opinion on these two visions.

[subgenius]

Socialism=economic democracy.
My point is you can't find one (Marxist... like in your neighborhood) in America, and if you could find all of them they're no realistic threat. People groping for something to hate and an enemy to unite around rather than being for something. Its sad.
I keep pointing them to the FBI's site on assessment of real threats and they don't even make the cut, but that doesn't stop them from being obsessed by an imaginary enemy.
Why get bent out of shape about all the protests put together since they're a small minority? Why be threatened by people even expressing stupid ideas? Isn't that what America used to be about? The right to say any old thing.
Its actually a good thing, if you look up the derivation of the word disgruntled.

[susheel]

I doubt if Marxists are more accepted in India. A large intellectual group in India was Marxist and this situation rose out of a necessity to counter casteist oppression. I am not talking about run of the mill verbal abuse oppression, but real 'rape your daughter because I have the right to' and 'kill your father because he did not salute me' oppression. It still goes on.

I have lost a friend, a Marxist unionist trying to organize tribal laborers against feudal land owners. He was killed in a faked ‘encounter’. The only sharb instrument he ever carried was a cheap ball point pen.

One major eaxample of a true Marxist in my opinion would be Safdar Hasmi, playwright, poet, theatre activist shot down on a public street in New Delhi on January 1, 1989 by goons hired by the ruling Congress party.

What I am trying to say is that certain Marxian concepts of welfare states, collective ownerships etc are necessary in a country where the status of your birth decides even basic amployment. Marxian concepts offer solutions to empower the oppressed. The atheism thing is an added bonus since the caste system is a very Hindu construct.

Active Marxists are getting thin on the ground in India...they have the unfortunate tendency of getting killed for merely saying everyone is equal.

[DavidJames]

"People groping for something to hate and an enemy to unite around rather than being for something. Its sad."

Very well said and yes a very said commentary on human emotions.

The Internet is awash with this type of thing. When I came to this board a while back I thought I found a place where, while it existed, it was minimal. How times change...

[Denise]

Originally posted by DavidJames
"People groping for something to hate and an enemy to unite around rather than being for something. Its sad."

Very well said and yes a very said commentary on human emotions.

The Internet is awash with this type of thing. When I came to this board a while back I thought I found a place where, while it existed, it was minimal. How times change...

Why do you feel that way?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by susheel
I doubt if Marxists are more accepted in India. A large intellectual group in India was Marxist and this situation rose out of a necessity to counter casteist oppression. I am not talking about run of the mill verbal abuse oppression, but real 'rape your daughter because I have the right to' and 'kill your father because he did not salute me' oppression. It still goes on.

I have lost a friend, a Marxist unionist trying to organize tribal laborers against feudal land owners. He was killed in a faked ‘encounter’. The only sharb instrument he ever carried was a cheap ball point pen.

One major eaxample of a true Marxist in my opinion would be Safdar Hasmi, playwright, poet, theatre activist shot down on a public street in New Delhi on January 1, 1989 by goons hired by the ruling Congress party.

What I am trying to say is that certain Marxian concepts of welfare states, collective ownerships etc are necessary in a country where the status of your birth decides even basic amployment. Marxian concepts offer solutions to empower the oppressed. The atheism thing is an added bonus since the caste system is a very Hindu construct.

Active Marxists are getting thin on the ground in India...they have the unfortunate tendency of getting killed for merely saying everyone is equal.

Thanks for that, Susheel. I think that many people like to ignore the fact that Marxism provides a secular means of expressing displeasure with injustice. Marxists are often as interested in human rights as anyone else, and literally risk their lives for their beliefs.

[Victor Danilchenko]

jj

2) Marxism is a religionit's a politico-ecopnomic philosophy. marxism (or rather, leninism) became a "secular religion" in USSR, but that doesn't make marxism religious.

based on the idea that human beings will continue to work as hard as possible even when completely unrewarded for any fruits of their effort.... or based on the idea that when scarcity is eliminated, people will continue to create because thast is a way to self-actualize; because we are creative by nature.

[BillyTK]

I thought it was the communists who were responsible for the anti-war movement? And we all know that all communists (including all marxists) are anti-democratic...

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I went to a war demo, and the Marxists were there. These days, they are a curiosity more than anything else. I don't believe they organised the demo, though. From what I could tell, it was a coalition of the some churches, trade unions, leftist groups, minor political parties and yes, perhaps the odd of Marxist or two.



Yes. A coalition. Haven't you guys been reading the evidence I have provided? Haven't you gone to the freaking web sites?

You mean THIS coalition?

IFCO/Pastors for Peace
Free Palestine Alliance - U.S.
Partnership for Civil Justice - LDEF
Nicaragua Network
Bayan - USA/International
Korea Truth Commission
International Action Center
Muslim Student Association of the U.S./Canada
Kensington Welfare Rights Union
Mexico Solidarity Network
Middle East Children's Alliance

They are all elements of the WWP. Please, please, please look at the evidence.

How bizarre you guys aren't. How interesting. What does that say?

At the protests, did you notice the organizers wearing vests that had A.N.S.W.E.R. on them in yellow letters?

Hello?

It's very telling that you guys are trying to link religion to Marxism, too.

One of the first things to go in a marxist regime is religion. Religious people are persecuted.

However, the underlying social system of the USSR is infinitely superior to that of the most developed, the most "glorious," and the most "democratic" of the imperialist states. Whatever the drawbacks of the Soviet Union, whatever its trials and tribulations, whatever false policies have been imposed on the USSR by its leaders, it has nevertheless been able to achieve tremendous social, cultural, and material progress for the masses which no capitalist state could possibly have accomplished in the circumstances under which the USSR was originally founded and developed.

Remember that? Why is that still on their web site?

Originally posted by EvilYeti
The only people I've seen taking part in protests are Marxists and their cadre of ignorant "useful idiots". I think this subset of "intelligent protestors" you are attempting to address does not exist.

Right. As long as you clamp your eyes shut reeeeeal tight, they won't exist.

Information, Activism, and Resistance to U.S.
Militarism, War, and Corporate Greed, Linking with Struggles Against Racism and Oppression within the United States

The International Action Center, headed by former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark. A figment of my imagination.

LOOK!

International Action Center (http://www.iacenter.org/)

OCCUPATION IS NOT LIBERATION: Why We Are Marching on April 12 March Will Target Corporate Profiteers, Fox News and the Pro-War Media

Having slaughtered and maimed thousands of Iraqi people, the U.S./British invasion forces are celebrating the use of their massive, overwhelming and brutal military power to crush resistance to their invasion of Iraq. The images portrayed in the U.S. media conceal the reality.

Also on the IAC web site:


Griswold is editor in chief of Workers World newspaper. She wrote this as a statement from Workers World Party, issued following the outbreak of the U.S. attack on Iraq on March 19, 2003.

Interestingly, an article on another organization they formed called S.N.A.F.U. (Support Network For the Armed Forces, how does that spell SNAFU?) no longer carries the article I posted a week or so ago encouraging soldiers to defect.

Fortunately, I saved it.


Is it okay to kill innocent civilians for the profits of the big oil companies? On the first day of the war, the Pentagon plans to launch 3000 cruise missiles and bombs at the city of
Baghdad, where 5 million civilians live in a “Shock and Awe” display of massive military force. Thousands will die and millions more made refugees needlessly. Do you really want to take part in this massacre?

A.N.S.W.E.R.'s web site lists all of the members of the anti-war organizing coalition. Many of them are just arms of the WWP. You can check for yourself to see.

How about that Korea Truth Commission, member of the coalition, and arm of the WWP?

Their web pages are hosted by the IAC.


Korea Truth Commission (http://www.iacenter.org/ktc_report10-2002.html)

The 8th International Fact-Finding Mission of the Korea Truth Commission (KTC) visited the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) from October 19 to 26, 2002, as part of the ongoing work of the KTC to conduct a scientific investigation into massacres of civilians by the United States military during the time of the Korean War. The delegation consisted of the Secretary-General of the KTC, Yoomi Jeong, and two Canadian members -- Philip Fernandez, the Ontario spokesperson for the People's Front, and Lorne Gershuny, a Toronto lawyer and political activist. Besides recording the testimonials of survivors and eyewitnesses, the delegation also had a specific mandate to learn more about the use of biological and chemical weapons by the U.S. military against the Korean people during the war. The delegation also hoped to observe as much about the current reality of life in the DPRK as could be seen in a visit of one week.


Like I said, I can post evidence all the live long day.


The people of Pyongyang present themselves as cultured and purposeful. There is no sign of vagrancy or homelessness. Instead of billboards with product advertising, the streets are adorned with posters, banners and inscriptions exhorting citizens to work together to build a powerful nation. Many signs and monuments, most notably the unification monument erected in 2001, evoke the deep desire for reunification of the Korean nation. Everywhere, the map of Korea is shown as the entire Korean peninsula.


The coalition that organizes the peace protests. (http://www.internationalanswer.org/endorsers.html)

Prominently displayed in the last few days on the home page of International ANSWER, is Ramsey Clark's book, The Fire This Time.

This new edition of the groundbreaking work by Ramsey Clark tells the truth about U.S. war crimes against the Iraqi people in the 1991 war. With a special new introduction: After September 11th, an assessment of the U.S./Iraq conflict.
The Fire This Time, an invaluable resource for those organizing opposition to a new U.S. war against Iraq. It’s an important book to be in the hands of anti-war activists, students, and readers worldwide.

I can't help thinking I wouldn't have to work so hard at this if it were Nazis organizing peace protests.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by LukeT
Yet the history of Marxism makes Hitler look like a choir boy.

You are confusing the map with the territory.

Marxism as such is not "evil", nor does it condone genocide or a grab for military supremacy of any kind (you are, of course, free to show me where it says that). What those in power in the countries that called themselves Marxists did, is quite another matter.

Nazism, on the other hand, was from day one a violent movement, and much less a political philosophy. It had one purpose, and that was to place Hitler in power to pursue his own goals.

Sure, we can easily find atrocious regimes with the Marxist label, but we can also find Conservative and right-wing ones as well.

Map <> Territory.

Originally posted by CFLarsen


You are confusing the map with the territory.

Marxism as such is not "evil", nor does it condone genocide or a grab for military supremacy of any kind (you are, of course, free to show me where it says that). What those in power in the countries that called themselves Marxists did, is quite another matter.

Nazism, on the other hand, was from day one a violent movement, and much less a political philosophy. It had one purpose, and that was to place Hitler in power to pursue his own goals.

Sure, we can easily find atrocious regimes with the Marxist label, but we can also find Conservative and right-wing ones as well.

Map <> Territory.

Show me one good marxist regime.

Marxism does not condone genocide? Ethiopia, Cambodia, the Ukraine. All genocides perpetrated by marxism. The Ukraine alone doubled the number murdered by Hitler, and that is the most conservative estimate. Other estimates say five times. And that was in 1933-34. In less than a one year period.

I'm not confused, Claus. What Marxism does tells me more about it than what it says.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by LukeT
Show me one good marxist regime.

Denmark ;)

It can easily be argued that Denmark, being a welfare state, predominantly under socialdemocratic governments for the past odd 75 years, are built - partly - on Marxist ideas.

Partly, I say. Show me one regime that is built entirely on Marx. ;)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by LukeT
Marxism does not condone genocide? Ethiopia, Cambodia, the Ukraine. All genocides perpetrated by marxism. The Ukraine alone doubled the number murdered by Hitler, and that is the most conservative estimate. Other estimates say five times. And that was in 1933-34. In less than a one year period.

No, no. Show me in the works of Marx, where he condones genocide.

Imagine attending a nazi organized anti-war protest, and the nazis were saying, "You know, that Hitler, he really helped turn the economy around in Germany. And he built a lot of schools and hospitals. And he got the trains running on time. And the people were so healthy and happy and robust!"

That is what IAC, ANSWER, the Korea Truth Commission, and their other coalition members are saying RIGHT NOW about the USSR, North Korea, and Cuba.

As if that is not bad enough, they are calling our American troops murderers and thieves.

It is right there for you to see.

Why are people flocking to their events? Why are you making excuses for them? Why are you trying to deny what is undeniable?

They are not imaginary. These protests would not have happened without them.

Look at their web sites. Check out how well organized they are. Need a ride? They have buses, just call. Need a sign to carry? They have them for you. They have pamphlets and other handouts to download. Phone trees and meetings.

If anything, their statements of "facts" should shatter your skeptical bones.

Maybe the government isn't lying as much as the people behind the protest movement.

Originally posted by CFLarsen


No, no. Show me in the works of Marx, where he condones genocide.

Show me, in the speeches and writings of Stalin, where he condoned the genocide of the Ukraine.

I have a copy somewhere of a speech he gave while the genocide was occurring. I'll see if I can find it. It's on the web somewhere. Not a peep about the genocide taking place.

The people of the WWP, and its sub-groups, aren't saying anything about the mass murders taking place in North Korea and Cuba, either. They are just saying what wonderful hospitals and schools are being built. And how productive and happy everyone is.

Look. See. Wonder.

Show me in the works of John Edward where he condones cold reading scams to cheat people out of money.

edited to add: JE just talks about how happy and wonderful things are in the afterlife.

[CFLarsen]

Luke,

I am not making excuses for them. I am merely pointing out a flaw in your reasoning: Marxism in itself is not evil. It is what people (ab)use it for, that is.

Originally posted by LukeT
Show me, in the speeches and writings of Stalin, where he condoned the genocide of the Ukraine.

That's not what I asked. Where, in Marx' writings, does he condone genocide?

There is no flaw in my reasoning. I am using the information readily available to all on the WWP coalition's web sites.

My premise is simple, and can't be muddied.

1. The protests are being organized by the WWP.

2. The WWP organizations defend and support North Korea and Cuba. They glorify the former USSR.

3. The WWP is anti-American.

My question is about why people flock to them when they wouldn't flock to a White Nationalist anti-war protest.

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Luke,

I am not making excuses for them. I am merely pointing out a flaw in your reasoning: Marxism in itself is not evil. It is what people (ab)use it for, that is.



Thank you. Too bad some folks on here don't use the same logic in defense of religion.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by LukeT


Thank you. Too bad some folks on here don't use the same logic in defense of religion.

You're welcome! :)

Do I take it that you agree with me, then, that Marxism itself is not bad?

Originally posted by CFLarsen


You're welcome! :)

Do I take it that you agree with me, then, that Marxism itself is not bad?

Bad? I agree in principle it is not "bad." The way that nitroglycerin isn't "bad."

But a Marxist on the other hand.....

[Dancing David]

Luke T: You seem very sincere so I hate to disappoint you. Some of us protest the war because we think it is the right thing to do. Where i live there was a spontaneous movement started by women to protest the war (Hey J. Knight -here is a chance to talk about the matriarchal majority), they weren't organised by the marxists, maybe it grew out of the conviction that killing people is wrong and should be done with great consideration.

Unfortunately the self styled anarchsits take every oppotunity to destroy what they can, they have done great harm to the antiwar movement.

I hate to say it but the days of the vast Marxist conspiracy are dead. It was killed by Lenin and Stalin.

Have you actualy read Marx? His theory is just that the propertied classes are expoiting the working poor. Slaming Marx for Stalin is like slamming Jesus for Torqemada.

Peace
dancing David

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by LukeT


Bad? I agree in principle it is not "bad." The way that nitroglycerin isn't "bad."

But a Marxist on the other hand.....


You are generalizing. Some Marxists, right? :)

Always skeptical, Luke. Always.

[Advocate]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
... or based on the idea that when scarcity is eliminated, people will continue to create because thast is a way to self-actualize; because we are creative by nature.

Of course you have to eliminate scarcity first. That's the hard part. Do you think eliminating competition and any financial incentive to produce is an effective way to eliminate scarcity?

Originally posted by Dancing David
Luke T: You seem very sincere so I hate to disappoint you. Some of us protest the war because we think it is the right thing to do. Where i live there was a spontaneous movement started by women to protest the war (Hey J. Knight -here is a chance to talk about the matriarchal majority), they weren't organised by the marxists, maybe it grew out of the conviction that killing people is wrong and should be done with great consideration.

Unfortunately the self styled anarchsits take every oppotunity to destroy what they can, they have done great harm to the antiwar movement.

I hate to say it but the days of the vast Marxist conspiracy are dead. It was killed by Lenin and Stalin.

Have you actualy read Marx? His theory is just that the propertied classes are expoiting the working poor. Slaming Marx for Stalin is like slamming Jesus for Torqemada.

Peace
dancing David

David, I understand what you are saying. I guess I am not communicating myself well enough to be understood.

I've seen little groups of people protesting the war all around my state. A little tea party group of ladies holding signs by the side of the road in a small village near here. Schoolchildren on the sidewalk. They don't bother me one little bit, except by way of the fact I disagree with their position.

But the protests that are getting the largest draw are the ones put on by the WWP. And even then, I realize that probably most of the people who attend aren't even aware of the motives behind the organizations that put these protests together. The irony is that these organizations are telling the people that their government is being sneaky and underhanded.....

The WWP has been organizing protests and trying to shut down entire cities, using these "useful idiots."

I haven't been slamming Marx. I have been slamming Marxists. So it isn't like slamming Jesus for Torquemeda. I am slamming Torquemeda.

I am at a loss on how to make myself clearer.

I was stationed in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for three years. I saw with my own eyes what Castro is all about. I saw and heard the explosions of mines as people attempted to cross through the minefields to escape. I spoke with those who made it. I heard their first hand accounts of what life is like in Castro's Cuba.

My transmitter site sat right on the fenceline. Right on it. A Cuban was shot trying to escape to our side just yards from there. I arrived minutes after he was killed and listened to an 18 year old Marine tell me that all he could do was watch.

So when I visit these war protest coaliton web sites and read their glorifications of communist Cuba and North Korea and the USSR, I want to vomit. I am perplexed how anyone could attend one of their rallies. I am perplexed why so many people who do attend are ignorant of what these groups are all about. Maybe it's because their names sound so nice. "International Action Center." "Act Now to Stop War and End Racism (ANSWER)." Gee, who could be against such a noble sounding thing like that? Sign me up!

Maybe people in America just don't have any idea how good they have it. Maybe it sounds so implausible that the horrifying things I just described are actually taking place. Maybe it sounds more believable that Castro is a nice fellow who loves children and sick people.

I don't know. I am truly at a loss to understand why these groups aren't reviled and ridiculed as they should be.

Originally posted by CFLarsen


You are generalizing. Some Marxists, right? :)

Always skeptical, Luke. Always.

Yes, some. My thoughts are moving faster than my hands.

Some Marxists are as ignorant as a box of corn flakes and couldn't tell you who came first, Lenin or Stalin.

No matter what group you are talking about, it is always "some."

If anyone is offended or exasperated by my "misuse" of the term "Marxist," I hope you keep that in mind the next time you use the word "Christian."

edited to add: I've used the word "nazi" to describe White Nationalists on this board a few times, completely unchallenged.

[Victor Danilchenko]

Advocate

Of course you have to eliminate scarcity first. That's the hard part. Do you think eliminating competition and any financial incentive to produce is an effective way to eliminate scarcity?No -- which is why I am not a marxist; but Marx did. Painting convenient carricatures of marxism serves nobody, not even those who think it's in their interest; because in the long term, falsehood and self-deception are destructive, regardless of their short-term benefits.

[Victor Danilchenko]

LukeT

If anyone is offended or exasperated by my "misuse" of the term "Marxist," I hope you keep that in mind the next time you use the word "Christian."An interesting point; but on the balance, invalid.

The critical difference between marxism and xianity is that to the extent that there is a clear canonical source of marxism -- marx's writings -- it can be shown to be non-genocidal. To the (much lesser) extent to which there is a clear canonical source of xianity, it can be shown to be deeply evil.

it takes twisting and stretching to get leninism from marxism; it takes twisting and stretching to not get evil xian fundamentalism from the bible.

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
Advocate

No -- which is why I am not a marxist; but Marx did. Painting convenient carricatures of marxism serves nobody, not even those who think it's in their interest; because in the long term, falsehood and self-deception are destructive, regardless of their short-term benefits.

I have used the term "marxist" no more loosely than others have used the term "christian."

I have also been painstaking in my efforts to post exact quotes and links from the WWP's web sites. I have provided a very large number of opportunities for people to read and see these organizations in their full context. This same information proves who is organizing the large protests.

Having been in politics myself, I know that it only takes a small group of well-organized people to manipulate an overwhelming number of people. People will parrot something they hear from someone who sounds more informed. A message spreads a long way that way.

Would the White Nationalists be able to pull something off like this? Would the White Nationalists have such a large draw?

At least the White Nationalists are honest about their aims. And maybe that is their achilles heel. Good thing they don't take a page from the WWP. Good thing they don't call themselves "Bunch Of Nice Guys (BONG)" and call for the legalization of drugs. They'd probably get large crowds for that.

And there would be people saying, "Ah. Show me a nazi. They are a non-issue." Or "I'm in favor of legalizing drugs. That doesn't mean I'm a nazi."

You'd want to know if the pro-legalization rally you attended was put on by nazis, though, wouldn't you? Would you make comments like, "There might have been a few nazis here and there in the crowd. They were just a curiousity?"

Just want to cut and paste what I put over in another topic in Banter:Okay, fellas. I just made a lot of calls to San Francisco to see who, what, where and how these protests are put together.

Eventually, I was led to the police department, and called them. 415-553-1115. The desk seargant told me the only permit you need is if you are going to have a handheld voice amplifier over 10 watts. When I asked if any other permits were necessary, and if she knew what organizations had applied for them for the big peace protests, she said she didn't know, but that "those were very well organized" and that they needed to get permits from Parks and Recreation Department.

So I called Parks and Rec. 415-831-2700. Before I was even halfway through my question, the lady there said, "Do you know about ANSWER?"

I pled ignorance.

She went on and on about them. I was writing quotes as fast as I could. "Main organizers." "Very big organization." She told me to go to their web site and I would find "everything you want to know." "Lots and lots of information." "You can get on their email list." And so on. She couldn't say enough about them. She gave me the web address internationalanswer.org without even looking it up.

[Dancing David]

Thanks for the clarification.

I still feel that not all the antiwar protests are oranised by the marxists. And I am very saddened to hear that there are antiwar sites that hold up alleged communist states as paragons of virtue.

As a side point I feel that while Cuba's revolution started along the usual communist lines it quickly devolved to a facist state. I feel that socialism has been given a few tries, but actual communism has not. However I am not sure that communism would actualy work. It breaks down at the level where the state starts to tell the workers what to do. When we have corporations start to actually have worker investment and ownership of companies we may actually evolve a form of 'communism' that works.

I don't understand how two economic models(capitalism,communism) became confused with two political models (democracy, dictatorship).

Peace
dancing David

PS Thank You for serving ournation in the military!

[daenku32]

Because the Marxists that you are talking about (WWP), are not perceived as Stalinist supporters.

Originally posted by daenku32
Because the Marxists that you are talking about (WWP), are not perceived as Stalinist supporters.

On the first page of this topic, I posted a quote from the founder of the WWP that is still on the WWP's web site.

However, the underlying social system of the USSR is infinitely superior to that of the most developed, the most "glorious," and the most "democratic" of the imperialist states. Whatever the drawbacks of the Soviet Union, whatever its trials and tribulations, whatever false policies have been imposed on the USSR by its leaders, it has nevertheless been able to achieve tremendous social, cultural, and material progress for the masses which no capitalist state could possibly have accomplished in the circumstances under which the USSR was originally founded and developed.

If the WWP is not perceived as Stalinist supporters, it is because people haven't looked at them close enough.

The founder of the WWP repeatedly refers to himself as a Marxist in his writings that are archived on their site.

Originally posted by Dancing David
Thanks for the clarification.

I still feel that not all the antiwar protests are oranised by the marxists. And I am very saddened to hear that there are antiwar sites that hold up alleged communist states as paragons of virtue.



I don't think all the antiwar protests are organized by them either. But in that phone call I made to San Francisco today, the lady told me what cities they are organizing protests. All the big ones. The largest ones that you see on the national news.

I had told her I was in Portland, Or, and she was nice enough to tell me which city closest to me that ANSWER was organizing a protest in. Seattle. I didn't even ask. She just told me.

[davefoc]

Dancing David said:

I don't understand how two economic models(capitalism,communism) became confused with two political models (democracy, dictatorship).

The reason is that on a practical level capitalism is intrinsically linked with freedom and communism is intrinsically linked with dictatorship. On a philosophical level one can speculate endlessly about communist democracies. The nature of human beings preclude them however. Milton Friedman does a very nice job of explaining this in "Capitalism and Freedom".

I think it is fair to say though that capitalism is not intrinsically linked with democracy. China has an interesting experiment going on these days where a fairly repressive government is promoting capitalism. It will be interesting to see in the future how the Chinese dictatorship deals with people that have the freedom that capitalism necessarily conveys on them.

[jj]

Originally posted by Victor Danilchenko
jj

it's a politico-ecopnomic philosophy. marxism (or rather, leninism) became a "secular religion" in USSR, but that doesn't make marxism religious.

... or based on the idea that when scarcity is eliminated, people will continue to create because thast is a way to self-actualize; because we are creative by nature.

And that begs about 12 questions or so, but the biggest one is "since when does not rewarding people for producing REDUCE scarcity?"

And that, boys and women, points directly to the religious belief at the heart of Marxism.

[jj]

Originally posted by LukeT
It's very telling that you guys are trying to link religion to Marxism, too.

One of the first things to go in a marxist regime is religion. Religious people are persecuted.

If you said "all religions aside from Marxism" I'd agree with you entirely.

[jj]

Originally posted by LukeT
I'm not confused, Claus. What Marxism does tells me more about it than what it says.

Oops. I have to agree with you again. HELP! :eek:

[jj]

Originally posted by LukeT


Why are people flocking to their events? Why are you making excuses for them? Why are you trying to deny what is undeniable?


Because it's not actually "their" events, unless you keep repeating that until people believe you. They achieve nothing by even organizing this, if people regard them as silly, and quite a lot of people regard most of what they say as unintentional humor.

[Clancie]

Luke,

Not to get too techno-left on you, but I think you're confusing Marxism (the analysis of the internal flaws of capitalism that will lead to its end) with Leninism (the idea of how to get the proletariat into power) or Stalinism (what to do about the government after that).

I know Marx is out of fashion right now, but in the long run he may still be proven right about capitalism. If you look at the most simple issue of "class" on a world-wide scale, there are still those who control the means and output of production (big businesses), those who labor for them for very little and live squalid lives (exploitation of the working class), etc. Looking at who controls and distributes the vital economic resources in many parts of the world helps explain Marxism's enduring appeal.

You might ask yourself why so many idealistic and intelligent people continue to see merit in the Marxist analysis of inefficiency and waste of capitalism--and the goals of ending poverty and suffering, especially for the working poor. As has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, there have been many admirable Marxists who have made great sacrifices, even given their lives, just in the hope that they could make life better for others.

And, after all, its not at all a given that capitalism will be able to keep going on forever; in fact, it makes more sense to think that it won't.

As far as the analogy to religion goes, I think people do use similar reasoning when it comes to religion, though not in the way you mean. After all, haven't you heard people talk about how many evil things have been done by so-called Christians in the name of Jesus and his teachings--actions that, in reality, bore no resemblance to what Jesus taught at all?

No wonder, looking at the way his ideas were already being turned into dogma in his own lifetime, Marx said, "I'm glad I'm not a Marxist".

[Victor Danilchenko]

jj

And that begs about 12 questions or so, but the biggest one is "since when does not rewarding people for producing REDUCE scarcity?"that's why the process of reducing scarcity is supposed to be accomplished under socialism, where people are supposed to get rewarded for their work. Communism is not realistic unless scarcity is elimited -- which is to say, it may not be realistic at all; but it's not obviously irrational either, as your original quote implied. There's simply no way to tell now, except to conclude that in our times, communism is impossible.