Edge dowsing # 2

[Edge]

This is the reason ass clown can't you read?

I haven’t been down south yet to see if I can find neutral ground yet, so I’m waiting, I might be in the field in Calli; before that happens.

Read this,

[wert]

Originally posted by Edge
This is the reason ass clown can't you read?



Read this, Hm, doesn't exactly answer any of my questions now does it edge?

Why haven't you contacted the JREF yet?

Why isn't the ground where you sucessfully tested before (on your own) no longer viable?

Why isn't your sisters old house *which you claim is "good for dowsing", not a candidate for a retest?

And lastly.

Why continue with all the lame excuses about not being able to find "neutral ground"?

We see your continuing evasions for what they are.

Attempts to put off or avoid another fair test with the JREF.

After all, it's pretty obvious that if you truly wanted another test with the JREF, you would have contacted them by now.

Otherwise, please spare us your increasingly lame excuses (and ad-hominin) and give us some real answers for a change.

We can all see your reluctance to have a repeat of your failure to dowse under fair test conditions that you approved of 100%.

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge
Few people would be more thrilled than I if dowsing were proved to work. A whole new field of physical research would open up, the present-day laws of physics would have to be rewritten or at least expanded.

This is undoubtedly true, Edge. It would, in fact be a new field, because there is certainly no evidence for it at this time. This is in spite of the fact that dowsing has been around for a long time. All those years and still no evidence?

Yes, Edge, even I would be happy to see such a new law of physics in our arsenal. However, I refuse to engage in wishful thinking untill I see some evidence.

Originally posted by Edge
This scenario is a dream of many a physicist; to find new fundamental laws of physics that better explain the world in which we live. But in the case of dowsing, proponents have had the possibility to prove that their ideas hold for centuries without any greater success in capturing the interest of the science community.
Yes, I believe "dream" is the operative word here. And there is a good reason why it hasn't captured the interest of the science community. It doesn't work. You didn't see people refusing to believe metal detectors work when they were first invented, did you? Why? Because they actually do work.

Originally posted by Edge
The science community itself has flaws and is often narrow-minded to new ideas, but given several hundred years of time for evaluation of a few simple claims I believe the critical standpoint is taken on solid grounds. However, I encourage anyone interested in the field to continue research as long as the approach is serious. Simple truths about nature can't choose to hide from the skeptical minds and be seen by the gullible at the same time.
Yes, the science community is skeptical. Would you have it otherwise? Don't you think snake-oil salesmen should have to prove their product? And like you, I encourage any kind of serious research. And all serious research so far has shown dowsing doesn't work. Sure, keep looking if you like, but don't do the same disproven thing over and over. Try different things.

Originally posted by Edge

Like I said if it just moved I would say your right but I can stop the movement and it continues to arch, I cannot make it do this on purpose no matter how I try.
And like many have pointed out to you, this indicates there is an attractive force between the dowsing rod and the target. Remember the gold on the pendulem experiment? If there is an attractive force, then you ought to be able to move the pendulem of gold without touching it. In fact, it should move so violently that a strong man (like yourself) couldn't stop it. There is no such thing as one-way force, Edge.

Originally posted by Edge

In the field it's one hundred % accurate and that’s where it needs to be tested where mining is done.
The other way to check it is, when it's gone there, there is no reaction.
What you are suggesting is that gold in the field is somehow different between gold in the lab.
How about this for a proposed experiment then. You go out into the field and find some gold using dowsing. Then give that same exact gold to some neutral observer and do the ten target test (like in Randi's office) in the same exact field. Does that seem fair to you?

Originally posted by Edge
These things I have learned and checked on the spots where I have mined.
You cannot know this unless you excavate many cubic feet of rock/dirt around the target where you found gold. Nor can you "know" there is no gold unless you excavate and carefully scan the entire "no gold" area. Your test controls in the field are very poor.

When your finding ounces of gold you just can’t believe that it’s gone as suddenly as it appears so you check and you find that you were right the first time that you checked with the dowsing rod and it is remarkable.
And yet you cannot do this under test conditions. Doesn't that bother you in the least?

Originally posted by Edge

I haven’t been down south yet to see if I can find neutral ground yet, so I’m waiting, I might be in the field in Calli; before that happens.

I think many more experiments should be done and maybe they will and maybe they won’t.
Is this your way of saying you are not going to reapply for the Randi Million? People have been suggesting lots of ways to make the test fair, including dowsing in your "proven" fields. Surely you can do it there for a million dollars. You are behaving as if you are afraid of losing.

[wert]

Originally posted by Tricky
You are behaving as if you are afraid of losing. Specifically, I think he is afraid of being a two time loser.

Before, he gave us big talk how he would "take the million" with his "secret weapon" in his re-test with the JREF.

Now we get the same old excuses rehashed by him in an effort to duck the re-test.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Tricky

You didn't see people refusing to believe metal detectors work when they were first invented, did you? Why? Because they actually do work.


Errr.... well, uhhh... actually, people were skeptical toward the first metal detector. It was built by Alex. Graham Bell, in an attempt to detect the assassin's bullet inside Pres. Garfield. He failed to do so, only because, unbeknownst to Bell, Garfield was laying on a newfangled coil-spring mattress! (There's the bullet... no, there it is... wait, it's over here... dang! he's riddled with bullets!) So, it was deemed a failure, and was panned by critics. Garfield's "doctors" subsequently killed him.

The scientific community dismisses dowsing, not because of a single failure, but because of consistent failure, by a wide variety of proponents, under a wide variety of conditions. Until it can be demonstrated under controlled conditions, there is nothing to study.

[davefoc]

Tricky,
You seem to have descended into politeness, clear writing, and logic.

Perhaps its time for the moderator to step in and stop this sort of thing before you bring down this thread entirely.

[GovtSlave]

Oh yeah. Dowsing works. That's why I just shelled out $2000 for a dry well (this'll be it's own post, after I write something coherent about it) :rolleyes:

(btw, I'm new. Hi! *waves*)

[Denise]

welcome to the forum!

[Tricky]

Originally posted by TechHead


Errr.... well, uhhh... actually, people were skeptical toward the first metal detector. It was built by Alex. Graham Bell, in an attempt to detect the assassin's bullet inside Pres. Garfield. He failed to do so, only because, unbeknownst to Bell, Garfield was laying on a newfangled coil-spring mattress! (There's the bullet... no, there it is... wait, it's over here... dang! he's riddled with bullets!) So, it was deemed a failure, and was panned by critics. Garfield's "doctors" subsequently killed him.

The scientific community dismisses dowsing, not because of a single failure, but because of consistent failure, by a wide variety of proponents, under a wide variety of conditions. Until it can be demonstrated under controlled conditions, there is nothing to study.
Wow! You learn something new every day. Of course, I will have to verify the truth of this story. (sigh) It ain't easy being a skeptic.

Originally posted by davefoc
Tricky,
You seem to have descended into politeness, clear writing, and logic.

Perhaps its time for the moderator to step in and stop this sort of thing before you bring down this thread entirely.
I object, sir! Anyone with half a brain can easily tell that my post was absolutely dripping with subtle sarcasm. You are obviously more a fan of Rabelais than Voltaire. So bite me.

Originally posted by GovtSlave
Oh yeah. Dowsing works. That's why I just shelled out $2000 for a dry well (this'll be it's own post, after I write something coherent about it)

(btw, I'm new. Hi! *waves*)
I work in the oil biz and a dry hole or two can mean looking for a new job. Hope this wasn't the case with you.

And welcome. Beware the Succubus, if you value your soul.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Tricky

Wow! You learn something new every day. Of course, I will have to verify the truth of this story. (sigh) It ain't easy being a skeptic.


I would expect no less from any good skeptic. :)

[Edge]

Yes, Edge, even I would be happy to see such a new law of physics in our arsenal. However, I refuse to engage in wishful thinking untill I see some evidence.

I going to make sure that there is some evidence next time I do this.


Attempts to put off or avoid another fair test with the JREF.

We are going to make sure it's fair next time wart don't you worry and I'M NOT AFRIAD TO LOSE TWICE BECAUSE NEXT TIME I WON'T............................................. ...............................................

Why isn't your sisters old house *which you claim is "good for dowsing", not a candidate for a retest?

See again I keep answering old questions again and again.

Your memory sucks, I told you when I went there to her house that it was for sale, and that I found her old silver trays along side of it, buried in the sand and grass. This was one of the interferences that were there at one end of the pool area. There were two rooms between where I was testing and where the trays were located.

After I did several tests there and had to go to Lauderdale the house sold.

I asked them several times to go to where I was but they couldn't, or they wouldn’t.

The next time I do this and I will.
They will have to meet me where I want them to meet me, whether here in Florida or in California.
It will never happen in an office again.
That was the first time and the last time.

I will film everything in the gold fields to show that a reliable test can be done in the field with a double check of the results so that no one can squirm out of any of the results, and again they won’t show and have the same lame excuse that you all try to put across.
Those excuses are absolutely ludicrous.
No one knows where the gold is and no one knows when it’s gone, except the dowser!

The gold in a creek or river is so far and few in-between and the job of finding it is so immense that no one can fake it or spoil the results.
Any geologist can tell if it’s been salted and if it’s coming from layered ground that hasn’t seen the light of day for hundreds of years and maybe even thousands of years so there is your back up.

I would not have gold to salt the creeks and would let them pick the areas to look for it and what ever is pulled up small or large the traps can be checked and rechecked double checked two ways of checking if it works.



When or if I find unbiased neutral ground here, or if I don't, I will call on them to meet with me Mr. wart were I want, or they will take the derision.

I will guess that they won’t meet me in gold country because there they will lose, I.M.H.O. I will have 100% hit capability.

But if possible I will do it here in Fl., but I’m not sure when, don’t you worry if I find the right place you will be the first to know but I will not be pressured into it till I find the right ground here.

ZEdge

I going to make sure that there is some evidence next time I do this.

[Edge]

Picture time.
This thin 1913-dime fell out of no were, believe it or not, straight threw the ceiling of our home.

I never owned this dime before this incident.
Strange s**t happens all the time, The room was dark and it made a distinctive sound as it hit the floor and neither of us thought much of it till the next day when we woke up to find it laying on the floor where it hit.

It fell from a great height of about 7 feet and bounced more than once, at the time we figured it fell out of one of our pockets but our cloths were on the floor.
There was nothing on the ceiling but ceiling so where did it come from?
Nether one of us received it in change because when we do get a coin like that we would notice it right away, no doubt about that, it could not have slipped by.

Not to change the subject but what the f**k!
ZEdge

[wert]

Originally posted by Edge

Your memory sucks, I told you when I went there to her house that it was for sale, and that I found her old silver trays along side of it, buried in the sand and grass. This was one of the interferences that were there at one end of the pool area. There were two rooms between where I was testing and where the trays were located.That's not what you said before Edge.

Specifically, you said :

I had to go further inland to find good clean ground. One house, my sisters was excellent, but it got sold...
With your direct quote, my memory is not in question.

Nice attempt to spin it though.

The next time I do this and I will.How about you actually contact them first to set up the time, place and conditions?

And since you're now officially eligible for the re-test, why haven't you been in contact with the JREF yet?


They will have to meet me where I want them to meet me, whether here in Florida or in California.The test will take place under conditions mutually acceptable to you and the JREF.

If you continue to dither and place impossible conditions on the test, then by definition the test won't take place.

Then I'm wagering you'll claim victory, stating that the JREF couldn't meet your conditions.


It will never happen in an office again.
That was the first time and the last time.Ah, but in the open test, you claimed your dowsing powers were working quite well. In fact, you scored 100% on that "open test" and then later on admitted you lied about the efficacy of your skill during that test.


I will film everything in the gold fields to show that a reliable test can be done in the field with a double check of the results so that no one can squirm out of any of the results, and again they won’t show and have the same lame excuse that you all try to put across.Irrelevant filler noted.

Those excuses are absolutely ludicrous.
No one knows where the gold is and no one knows when it’s gone, except the dowser! Excuses? You should know edge. You're an expert when it comes to generating excuses for failing the test the first time.

To wit:



Now, following the tests, Mike said that he'd found, all through the trials, that his stick was being "distracted" by the "gold" lettering on a double set of the Encyclopaedia Britannica on the shelves located near cups #1 and #2. Remember, he'd "tuned" his forked stick specifically to react to gold. We told him later that there was no gold in that location, either, since the book lettering is done with a bronze-powder ink.


I can prove it day after day in the field does he have the stamina?
After all he's about 80 or so.

I don't need no open test the second time around as they now know I can dowse.

You’re tiring to discredit me because I failed to win.

Behind the books in that spot on the other side of the wall I believe was a good size copy machine and scanner, I'm not sure but it was about 3 or 4 feet tall or on a desk.

From my point of view this is information not excuses.
Call it what you like if it makes you safe in your room!

As this happened I was trying to learn the difference in the attractions, the one holding and the ones that were not that were showing attraction. There are many reasons for it doing that. In my house here, there was more interferences, it was worse, at the foundation it was way better but interferences were there too just not as bad.

Dowsing for gold occurs were its mined not in an office, there the success rate is 100%.

He said he had always been successful in detecting each and all of these seventeen items, when his forked stick was specifically "tuned" to pick up gold (stated before tuning up his stick and failing miserably)


I had three threads one was deleted by me and the other two, Well not by me.

I'll give you a hint, behind the wall is something with electrical fields running through it., James knows what’s behind the wall.

I don't know if the date that I can go back to the foundation for retesting is going to interfere with my plans, understand?


I thought the conditions would be acceptable and I could over come that false readings or interferences, after going through all the trouble I was determined to try, you just don't have a clue as to what drives me but after just checking the room before the pilimanary test I all ready knew I was going to have a hard time of it.


Some times money doesn't mean nothing compared to making an attempt at pleasing everybody, that is the best way I can put it.
It's what you try to do for others that is worth more than money by not following my dreams for the moment I have made my own people happy that I’m here, Understand?

You can see the target, if i said it's over there when it's obviously in 3 not 9 then I would be crazy and the test would be over because of my blindness to the real world.
LMAO.


James has a couple of things wrong here, now that you mention it.

Since you don't believe me ask James about all the extra readings?

It's the Jref office I never said he did anything to sabotage me.
Hell my house was the same, did I sabotage my self? It’s self-evident if you dowse.
They have many things that can interfere there.

In the open test it's visible and I had to show that there was an attraction there, but there were still attractions were it was not.

It wasn't total (success) it was as good as I could do in the office.

The foundation explains it in scientific medical terms that make that knowledge a dead end.

(Randi)Just forgetful, like any one else.

Maybe then but now I know better, you have to fail sometimes to get it right. (When asked if he initially approved of the test conditions)

If you want to prove something then lets go to the field where dowsing for gold occurs what your not scared are you?

These are things that I know, most things on the list are found in pockets or cracks containing gold in the field they are dowsed together, in real life they are not together and that’s when miss readings occur do you want the list again?

But I was talking about electrical fields that are all through their office not including other points of attraction.

They are running a computer related business think of the amount of machinery that's there producing electrical fields one of the major attractions.


When or if I find unbiased neutral ground here, or if I don't, I will call on them to meet with me Mr. wart were I want, or they will take the derision.Quite obviously, you're setting it up so that you can claim that "neutral ground" isn't available for the test, conveniently giving you an "out" to avoid the test.

I will guess that they won’t meet me in gold country because there they will lose, I.M.H.O. I will have 100% hit capability.We'll see. I'm quite sure you and Randi can come to terms if you actually take the time to contact him.

But if possible I will do it here in Fl., but I’m not sure when, I'm thinking...................Never?


don’t you worry if I find the right place you will be the first to know but I will not be pressured into it till I find the right ground here.In other words you'll put it off as long as you can in the hopes we'll forget about it. *sigh*


We really should set up an "edge clock"

It would tick off the days inexorably until you get the courage to contact Randi, set up, take and fail the test yet again. :)

I'm saying that no matter what the conditions, you'll walk away an abject failure, just as you did the first time.

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

[Tricky]

Remember, Edge, if you expect the testers to come to some remote location to run the test, you are responsible for their expenses. It is not as if these people have unlimited funds for traipsing all over the world to confront self-deluded people who will not accept the fact that they failed even when the evidence is right in front of their faces.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Edge

I will guess that they won’t meet me in gold country because there they will lose, I.M.H.O. I will have 100% hit capability.


Edge,

I seriously doubt they will accept a natural field test, like finding placer gold in a stream. The problem with that is that there is no baseline to determine success or failure.

Here in NC, I do a little bit of gold panning, and I know there are certain streams that are decent for finding gold, and I know how to look for high-probablilty spots for panning. Most of the time, I can find some amount of gold. If I were to haul a dowsing rod out there, and repeat my previous results, it would certainly not prove that dowsing works, only that I know how to pan for gold.

I agree that you should not attempt a test in an office environment, and that you should be 100% comfortable with the test locale. But it shouldn't need to be a highly probable gold-bearing stream. If your device can locate tiny placer gold from a distance, then can it work with a one-ounce bar of .999 fine gold, from 10 feet away?

If you cannot locate a 1-oz gold bar at 10 feet, I doubt you will ever succeed at locating a 1-dwt nugget at 100 yards.

[wert]

Originally posted by TechHead
If I were to haul a dowsing rod out there, and repeat my previous results, it would certainly not prove that dowsing works, only that I know how to pan for gold.Excellent point.


I agree that you should not attempt a test in an office environment, and that you should be 100% comfortable with the test locale.He was comfortable enough dowsing in the office in his first test that he got 100% in the "open test".

(4) The performer has the opportunity of deciding for himself — in the "open" tests — whether it's his powers, or just his foreknowledge of the answer, that is actually at work. Mike was convinced of the former.


If you cannot locate a 1-oz gold bar at 10 feet, I doubt you will ever succeed at locating a 1-dwt nugget at 100 yards. [/B]

Actually, Mike(Edge) brought 17 items to the test, and he claimed this about his accuracy in finding them via dowsing.

http://www.randi.org/images/032902-G2.jpg

He said he had always been successful in detecting each and all of these seventeen items, when his forked stick was specifically "tuned" to pick up gold — by having a small scrap of gold fastened to its tip.

Randi bent over backwards to give edge the greatest possible chance to find the items.

We decided to use the entire package of seventeen items, sealed in a plastic bag, to give Mike the maximum chance of finding his target, and he affixed his gold "guider" sample to the stick to "tune" it. The total weight of his composite target was 230 grams (8.2 ounces).

Needless to say, when the test was over and done, Mikes dowsing powers mysteriously vanished between the time of the open test and the time of the actual test.

Gory details of his failure are right here.

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

[TechHead]

Originally posted by wert
He was comfortable enough dowsing in the office in his first test that he got 100% in the "open test".

Yup, read all about that a while back. In a slight amount of fairness to Edge, I think it was a huge mistake to administer the test indoors, and something Randi should have known better than to do.

Most treasure dowsers "do their thing" in the great outdoors, away from buildings and even cities, looking for buried caches or gold nuggets. When testing a treasure dowser, conditions should be as close to the field as possible. The #1 excuse for dowsing failure in tests, is electromagnetic radiation. Buildings are FULL of EM emmissions. Another common excuse is interfering "anomalies", such as nearby items that cause false reactions. Doing the test in a building just offers up reams of those excuses.

Yeah, I know, he did a baseline test and was 100% successful. But, in my experience, most dowsers have never attempted a true DB test, and rarely understand the concepts, especially the statistics. Passing the baseline portion, and failing the DB portion, probably doesn't register much significance. The point being, the test should replicate field conditions as closely as possible, and Randi (or whoever is sponsoring/proctoring the test) should help guide that effort, even if the dowser initially says "this office will be fine."

[wert]

Originally posted by TechHead


The point being, the test should replicate field conditions as closely as possible, and Randi (or whoever is sponsoring/proctoring the test) should help guide that effort, even if the dowser initially says "this office will be fine." Edge has said before that doing the same exact test in a place with "less interferences" would be fine.

However, he's now making it seem nearly impossible to find such a place in an effort to duck a fair re-test.

The items he tested for with Randi were ones he claims to have been able to find before via dowsing with a high success rate.

I've asked him before about his procedure for this sucessful "self test" that he supposedly passed.

Edge has been very silent about it.

I've suggested that he must logically have found a good place to find those objects if he claims to have found them before via dowsing.

And instead of answers, we get the sound of crickets chirping.

Also, Edge has plenty of time to post off topic images and posts here, but he so far has failed to contact the JREF even once about his fair re-test.

He claims the re-test is important and that he'll "take the million", but he doesn't even make the effort to contact the JREF to set up the details.

[Edge]

Techhead,
I use a willow because it is most flexible even when dried out.
It was what was taught to me by Tim P. who taught me how to dowse.
He said it was the best also for seeking water.

Athena,
There is only one major reason for myself to take the test.
Aside from the money, only Brother Bluto and Debunk know why I took it. I knew going in the odds were against me but I would try anything to help her and myself.
What happened to Debunk I haven't heard from him lately.

I might tell why I took the test soon but I’m not sure how to do that correctly as it involves my daughter.
This is in answer to the private messages that I have received.


Edge

[Athena]

Originally posted by Edge
Athena,
There is only one major reason for myself to take the test.
Aside from the money, only Brother Bluto and Debunk know why I took it. I knew going in the odds were against me but I would try anything to help her and myself.

I might tell why I took the test soon but I’m not sure how to do that correctly as it involves my daughter.

This is in answer to the private messages that I have received.
Edge

Edge, the last time I contacted you was many many months ago, and I sent you the Code of Ethics for the ASD. I'm not going to debate the code here with you. As you know I barely discuss dowsing here at all anymore, only to offer the fact that In *am* a dowser, specializing in water dowsing, and that if anyone would like to discuss that with me off this board I'd be happy to. I also have a few resources that I've shared with a few here who are interested, skeptics included.

Just wanted to point that out since you mentioned me specifically.

[wert]

Edge,

Nice the way you failed to answer any of the questions again.

Now your excuse is a "private thing about your daughter'.

Please, let's keep this discussion relevant to the point at hand.

Why haven't you contacted Randi or JREF yet about your re-test?

It's now been a year. You're eligible for a fair re-test under conditions agreeable to both you and the JREF.

What happened to all the big talk about "taking the million" with your "secret weapon"?

These days we're watching you trot out old excuses and do your darndest to come up with even lamer ones.

No on cares (save perhaps Athena) your motives for taking the first test.

We're interested in why you say you'll take the re-test but have not (at this date) contacted the JREF yet to hammer out the details.

Your evasions are as transparent as ever Edge.

But I guess that's no surprise since you pretty much admitted you lied to Randi about your "open tests".

Why should we trust you now?

We've got lots of evidence that you can't dowse and not a single iota of verifiable evidence that you can.

Excuse us if we don't don't your word on it. :)

Originally posted by Athena

As you know I barely discuss dowsing here at all anymore, only to offer the fact that In *am* a dowser, specializing in water dowsing, and that if anyone would like to discuss that with me off this board I'd be happy to.
Athena,

We're all aware of the reason you don't post about dowsing much.

Simply put, you can't produce results under test conditions and would prefer to keep your self delusions intact.

At least Mike had the initial guts (nowhere in evidence these days) to initially take the test.

You don't seem to even consider taking it yourself, but it doesnt matter.

Your results would probably run along these lines.

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html :rolleyes:

[Athena]

Originally posted by wert
Athena,

We're all aware of the reason you don't post about dowsing much.

Simply put, you can't produce results under test conditions and would prefer to keep your self delusions intact.

At least Mike had the initial guts (nowhere in evidence these days) to initially take the test.

You don't seem to even consider taking it yourself, but it doesnt matter.

Your results would probably be about the same as this gentlemans.


Wart,
Those are your words, not mine. Exactly why I don't continue dialogue here. You know NOTHING about me, what I can do, or my motives, or the results I've had. Continue....

[wert]

Originally posted by Athena


Wart,
Those are your words, not mine. Exactly why I don't continue dialogue here. You know NOTHING about me, what I can do, or my motives, or the results I've had. Continue.... "Wart" eh?

Not even smart enough to come up with your own ad-hominen I see.

As far as your dowsing "abilities" are concerned, I have a simple suggestion for you.

Put up or shut up.

Someone belonging to such an official sounding dowsing organization should be able to replicate their results under test conditions acceptable to themselves and the JREF.

We have no verifiable evidence that your dowsing skills are any less illusory than those of Edge.

Until we see said verifiable proof, what you say doesn't amount to a hill of rancid beans.

I'll tell you what I told edge concerning his dowsing "abilities".

Pardon us if we don't take your word on it. :)

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Athena

Wart,
Those are your words, not mine. Exactly why I don't continue dialogue here. You know NOTHING about me, what I can do, or my motives, or the results I've had. Continue....

Yes, we know, Athena. We have been treated to an example of your righteous indignation. We remember this post of yours.
Originally posted by Athena
"Edge earnt his place to post what he likes here... "

Oh bite me. Someone asked a question and I answered. Nothing was addressed to you, or edge. The board bullies, slinging their filthy insults because they have no other resources in their tiny brains. Yes, you do much for the human race and to promote theories of skepticism and the attitude created about skeptics and this website De Bunk. At least I can write in paragraphs, am not an alcoholic, and have more respect for my fellow humans and their beliefs in my pinky then you would in your entire lifetime. Keep spewing your BS, what a waste of flesh you are. Somewhat sad too, because you seem to be somewhat creative and intelligent, however you're abrasive and rude. At least on the computer. My guess is you're a little nerd who has no job and no life, just this cyber playground where you go around shooting off your big mouth - and most of the time hitting yourself in the foot. But I don't really care.

Yes, all this mud-slinging really promotes fine dialogue. You're a loser and you know it and you're just jealous because you will never have any understanding about paranormal events. Usually the understanding comes with a personal loss and/or life-changing event, or enlightenment on the path to spiritual development.

Apologies to all those here who are not on the obnoxious end of the spectrum.

Have a nice day.:p

What we have not been treated to is your explantaion of how dowsing works. Instead, you post links to dowsing sites. Well, it's a free board. You must understand though, that most people on these boards are skeptics, and your assurance that dowsing works is simply not enough for us. Would you be willing to take part ina carefully designed test like this one (http://www.phact.org/e/z/kassel.htm)? If not, show us the flaw in the test design such that suitable modifications can be made.

[Edge]

You know it's one thing to be skeptical and another to be rude especially to women.
True!

Second thing I can BE RUDE TO YOU ASS CLOWN WART.

THAT MONICURE IS WARTS FACE WHEN HES TAKING IT IN THE CABOOSE.
What’s THIS CRAP ABOUT CUSSING I CAN REMEMBER debunk BEING THE BIGGEST SKEPTIC ON HERE NEVER GITTING CHASTIZED.
WHERE are YOU? YOU OLD PUD?

SAME GOES TO YOU TesRICKY.

Now what DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT, I’m NOT READY YET?
I'm not going to lose twice watch me son.



You know when wart and Miss Tesricky talk like this

[QUOTE]Why should we trust you now?

These days we're watching you trot out old excuses [/QUOTE

I feel they are under a delusional trip that they are actually a part of the Jref team, wake up you are only a Part Of this forum and nothing else you haven't seen anything special or experienced anything unusual
and this is because your not special.




Excuses to you are the new knowledge of the reaction of dowsing be it positive or negative It's what is being learned about it.

Further more this is my thread and I will talk about anything that I what to at any time dig it?
I knew that you could!

Read the top of this page then read on if you like.
I wonder who had the name first?

http://www.edge.org/


What is the weight of a fully laden swallow?

Oh ya any one can pass the first open test whether you know how to dowse or not, You should have seen the look in James’s eyes when I hit the very first one correctly right off the bat and like I said no problem, then it was like a switch was thrown and I couldn’t tell my ass from a hole in the ground…I get to see them eyes in the future,
When I hit exactly what I say when the time comes and I will let you know.

There's no rush it doesn't have to be a year from the last date maybe in a month or so, at my convenience.

And wart said says this,

We have no verifiable evidence that your dowsing skills are any less illusory than those of Edge.

Until we see said verifiable proof, what you say doesn't amount to a hill of rancid beans.

I'll tell you what I told edge concerning his dowsing "abilities".

Pardon us if we don't take your word on it.

It's not about word it's about gold and action.
Proof will get gold you have no idea of its capability why would I argue about it so long? Any way if nothing else I will have some one else film the proof of a much better test that's not biased.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge
You know it's one thing to be skeptical and another to be rude especially to women.
True!

Second thing I can BE RUDE TO YOU ASS CLOWN WART.

THAT MONICURE IS WARTS FACE WHEN HES TAKING IT IN THE CABOOSE.
What’s THIS CRAP ABOUT CUSSING I CAN REMEMBER debunk BEING THE BIGGEST SKEPTIC ON HERE NEVER GITTING CHASTIZED.
WHERE are YOU? YOU OLD PUD?

SAME GOES TO YOU TesRICKY.
Calm yourself and turn off your caps lock, Edge. I have said nothing rude to Athena. I did challenge her to produce evidence, but that is what good skeptics do. I certainly did not rewrite her name as you have done to mine (and Wert's).

And yes, I chastised DeBunk quite frequently for his rudeness. I can show you the posts if you like.

As to Wert, he is a bit more "in your face" than is my style, but I have not known him to lie. What he does do is tenaciously hold you to what you have said. I can understand why that would be uncomfortable for you.

Originally posted by Edge
Now what DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT, I’m NOT READY YET?
I'm not going to lose twice watch me son.
If you do not try twice, you will certainly not lose twice. However, if you do try twice, I go on record now as saying you will lose twice. Whether or not your bravado in insulting people is greater than your courage in standing behind your word, remains to be seen.

Originally posted by Edge
You know when wart and Miss Tesricky talk like this

Wert said:
Why should we trust you now?

These days we're watching you trot out old excuses

I feel they are under a delusional trip that they are actually a part of the Jref team, wake up you are only a Part Of this forum and nothing else you haven't seen anything special or experienced anything unusual and this is because your not special.
First of all, my forum name is Tricky. I do not change your name. Calling me "miss" may seem clever to you, but in actuality it shows your disdain for women. This correlates poorly with your desire to appear to be the defender of poor little opressed Athena. I do not consider being called a woman to be an insult. I like and respect women.
-----
Back to your post:

Are you suggesting that Wert and I are in collusion? I assure you, I have never so much as exchanged a Private Message with the fellow. We merely share a goal, which is getting dowsers to prove what they claim. Our ways of doing this differ.

I certainly have seen nothing special out of you, other than your ability to deny reality. I don't think that will win you the prize though. Have you looked at the tests I proposed? What modifications would you make?

Originally posted by Edge
Further more this is my thread and I will talk about anything that I what to at any time dig it?
I knew that you could!
Yes, of course you can. Of course, if you post off topic, people will think you are evading the issues that this thread is addressing. It makes more sense to post off-topic issues in other threads, wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by Edge
What is the weight of a fully laden swallow?
I believe the question is, "What is the airspeed of a fully laden swallow?", which of course begs the question, "An African swallow, or a European swallow?":D

Originally posted by Edge
Oh ya any one can pass the first open test whether you know how to dowse or not, You should have seen the look in James’s eyes when I hit the very first one correctly right off the bat and like I said no problem, then it was like a switch was thrown and I couldn’t tell my ass from a hole in the ground…I get to see them eyes in the future.
Recalling your glory days, Edge? Or glory seconds, perhaps? Did you get cocky after that first one? However, the "switch thrown" scenario is a bit different from your previous descriptions of the test. You earlier said that there was interference in the room that was present even during the open test. Now you are implying that everything was working fine until "the switch was thrown". You must realize that these constant revisions to your story do nothing for your credibility.

Originally posted by Edge
When I hit exactly what I say when the time comes and I will let you know.
I expect you will, when and if that time occurs. In all honesty, I would prefer that you simply face reality and admit you can't dowse. We could sit down and have a beer (or rum and coke) and talk about real stuff.

Originally posted by Edge
There's no rush it doesn't have to be a year from the last date maybe in a month or so, at my convenience.
Partially so. You do realize, of course, that Randi has quite a few irons in the fire and cannot be expected to adjust his schedule to fit yours. Would you be satisfied with performing for his representative? (No, not me. Unlike you, I have never had the pleasure of meeting the great man.)

Originally posted by Edge
It's not about word it's about gold and action.
Proof will get gold you have no idea of its capability why would I argue about it so long? Any way if nothing else I will have some one else film the proof of a much better test that's not biased.
I beg to differ, Edge. A person's word is more valuable than gold. If you have no honesty, then you could have more gold than anyone in the world, and still be a pauper.

I believe you are honest, but deluded. You want dowsing to be real so badly that you ignore all evidence to the contrary. Yes, I highly encourage filming the test. If you see yourself fail on film, perhaps that will encourage you to join us in the real world. Of course, I am an eternal optimist.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by wert
Edge has said before that doing the same exact test in a place with "less interferences" would be fine.

However, he's now making it seem nearly impossible to find such a place in an effort to duck a fair re-test.

Well, he does need to be 100% comfortable with the locale, and 100% confident in his ability. Until he reaches that point, I wouldn't expect him to re-apply for the AR million. I know I wouldn't.

The items he tested for with Randi were ones he claims to have been able to find before via dowsing with a high success rate.

I've asked him before about his procedure for this sucessful "self test" that he supposedly passed.

As I've mentioned before, almost all dowsers have never, ever submitted to a rigorous DB test, and most don't understand the protocol. I expect that even when applying for the AR million, and developing and agreeing to the test procedure, they really don't understand the reasoning behind the procedure.

I have DB tested several dowsers myself, and found that I had to lead them through the procedural development. Otherwise, they would have been perfectly satisfied with setting targets on the ground, in full view, and walking around them with their dowsing device, not understanding the fallacies of such a "test". I'm convinced that even after a DB test, the importance of a DB protocol is lost on them, because in every case but one, they all went right back to full-view "testing". The one that did not, had a date with the undertaker 2 weeks later, ironically because he believed chelation treatments were more effective than heart bypass surgery.

I've suggested that he must logically have found a good place to find those objects if he claims to have found them before via dowsing.

Or, possibly, his self-test protocol wasn't up-to-snuff. Before going into an AR test, I would be sure that (1) I understand exactly what a DB test is, and (2) I can pass a similar DB-type test very consistently. Not doing so, would be a waste of everyone's time. Perhaps this is where Edge is at right now.

Also, Edge has plenty of time to post off topic images and posts here, but he so far has failed to contact the JREF [b] even once about his fair re-test.

Well, I don't think there are any forum rules about off-topic images, so I'm OK with that. Read the paragraph above, as to why Edge should not contact AR about a re-test, until he is ready.

He claims the re-test is important and that he'll "take the million", but he doesn't even make the effort to contact the JREF to set up the details.

Let him figure it all out, on his own schedule. Beating him over the head with forum posts, is probably not too productive. Perhaps discussing scientific test protocols and statistics with Edge, would be more beneficial.

[wert]

Originally posted by TechHead

Well, he does need to be 100% comfortable with the locale, and 100% confident in his ability. Until he reaches that point, I wouldn't expect him to re-apply for the AR million. I know I wouldn't.Edge had every chance to change the test conditions or back out of the first test at any time.

Part of the terms of the test is that it's not to be done unless the applicant is comfortable with the test conditions.

Edge said that he was.

Later Edge said that he wasn't. (after he failed of course)

Conclusion.

Edge Lied.



As I've mentioned before, almost all dowsers have never, ever submitted to a rigorous DB test, and most don't understand the protocol. I expect that even when applying for the AR million, and developing and agreeing to the test procedure, they really don't understand the reasoning behind the procedure. Ignorance is really no excuse. Do you really believe that the test protocol Randi (and Edge mind you!) came up with is intrisically unfair?

Even edge said that the test would be good if done in a place with "less interferences".


I have DB tested several dowsers myself, and found that I had to lead them through the procedural development. And how many have been proven "real" in your estimation? If so, why not submit your testing procedure to Randi and Edge in the hopes of speeding up another fair re-test for Edge?

I know many of us here would enjoy seeing your testing protocol and seeing your testing results (if you had successes) submitted to peer reviewed scientific journals.

Otherwise, they would have been perfectly satisfied with setting targets on the ground, in full view, and walking around them with their dowsing device, not understanding the fallacies of such a "test". Aside from the fact that you claim interferences might have played a role, please expound as to why you feel that Randis test protocol is in any way fallacious?

Or, possibly, his self-test protocol wasn't up-to-snuff. Before going into an AR test, I would be sure that (1) I understand exactly what a DB test is, and (2) I can pass a similar DB-type test very consistently.Edge knew of the test protocal well in advance of the actual test. He could have easily "self tested" as no special equipment or conditions were really necessary.

Not doing so, would be a waste of everyone's time. Perhaps this is where Edge is at right now. You're overthinking things I believe.

Edge is merely stalling as you'll see if you read his statements from the very start. (and there is a whole other thread filled with his plaintive excuses and ad-hominen attacks)


Well, I don't think there are any forum rules about off-topic images, so I'm OK with that. Read the paragraph above, as to why Edge should not contact AR about a re-test, until he is ready.Edge uses off topic stuff merely as an attempt to change the topic. This very topic was created specifically so he oculd have a forum to discuss his dowsing claims.

Your rationalisations on his behalf do not convince in any logical fashion.

Let him figure it all out, on his own schedule.Hey, he talked how he was going to "take the million" with his "secrety weapon".

If we wait for Edge, the test will frankly never occur. His continual excuses make that obvious to even the least observant of viewers.

He's questioned the honesty of Randi and now seems to think there is a conspiracy against him. :rolleyes:

Beating him over the head with forum posts, is probably not too productive.It's one of the only things that actually got him to take the test in the first place.

Perhaps discussing scientific test protocols and statistics with Edge, would be more beneficial. As you've noted, edge doesn't really understand science, so your suggestion is futile.

Edge will come back with non sequiturs that dowsing is real "because it is OK with god". *sigh*

You seem to think we're being too hard on edge in some fashion.

Last time I checked, we were simply asking him to back up his claims with actual evidence.

And I won't apologize for that. :)

As for you edge, you evasions become ever more obvious.

Your ad-hominen becomes ever more strident.

Whilst there are many valid questions that you can't (or won't) answer, for now, I would like an answer to the following.

Why haven't you contacted Randi or JREF yet about your re-test?

If you were serious about the re-test (and not ducking it in a cowardly fashion) it's quite apparent that you would have contacted the JREF by now. Any added excuses merely show a pathetic need to avoid losing for a second time.

And mark my words. If you test again under conditions approved by the JREF (and yourself of course) you will fail again.

And please let us know why we should should believe you are being any more truthful now than when you were when you blatantly lied during the original test?

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

[Edge]

Now for something different.


Your presence is a gift to the world,
you're unique and one of a kind.
Your life can be what you want it to be -
Take it one day at a time.

Count your blessings, not your troubles,
and you'll make it through what comes along.
Within you are so many answers,
Understand, have courage, be strong.

Don't put limits on yourself;
your dreams are waiting to be realized.
Don't leave your important decisions to chance -
Reach for your peak, your goal, and your prize.

Nothing wastes more energy than worrying -
The longer a problem is carried, the heavier it gets.
Don't take things too seriously -
Live a life of serenity, not a life of regrets.

Remember that a little love goes a long way -
Remember that a lot goes forever.
Remember that friendship is a wise investment,
Life's treasures are people... together.

Have health and hope and happiness,
take the time to wish on a star.
And don't ever forget for even a day...
How very special YOU are!

[wert]

Hey Edge.

How typical of you to post off topic nonsense in lieu of actually answering a simply question.

Why haven't you contacted Randi or JREF yet about your re-test?


The time you spent hunting down that "cut 'n paste" poem could have been easily spent firing off an e-mail to the JREF and Randi about your fair re-test.



http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

[TechHead]

Originally posted by wert
Edge had every chance to change the test conditions or back out of the first test at any time.

Part of the terms of the test is that it's not to be done unless the applicant is comfortable with the test conditions.

Edge said that he was.

Later Edge said that he wasn't. (after he failed of course)

Conclusion.

Edge Lied.


All of the dowsers I've tested, have consistently failed to show any dowsing skills. Each one was comfortable with the protocol before the test, and very uncomfortable with the results after the test. Some argued (post hoc) that the test must not have been valid, for whatever reason they chose to believe (interference, etc.).

I don't see that, because they changed their minds after learning the results, it necessarily makes them liars. In fact, I've found that dowsers, as a whole, tend to be fairly honest folk, who truly believe they can "do it". Even after failing a DB test, they continue to dowse, and claim that they can do what they believe they can do. This is more likely denial, than dishonesty.

Ignorance is really no excuse. Do you really believe that the test protocol Randi (and Edge mind you!) came up with is intrisically unfair?

Nope... what I said, is that testing a dowser (esp a treasure dowser) in an office, was a poor choice, even though Edge agreed to it, as it helps maximize the number of post-test excuses.

And how many have been proven "real" in your estimation? If so, why not submit your testing procedure to Randi and Edge in the hopes of speeding up another fair re-test for Edge?

I use the same basic protocol that Randi uses, except in a field setting.

I know many of us here would enjoy seeing your testing protocol and seeing your testing results (if you had successes) submitted to peer reviewed scientific journals.

Again, the dowsers I've tested, have failed to demonstrate any dowsing ability, at least in those tests. For most, I agreed not to publicize the test or the results, so even if I had anything interesting to show, I would not.

Aside from the fact that you claim interferences might have played a role, please expound as to why you feel that Randis test protocol is in any way fallacious?

Once again, I never implied that Randi's protocol was fallacious, nor did I didn't claim that interferences actually played a role. What I said, was that dowsers often claim interference played a role, after they learn the results of the test, and that an office environment will maximize the likelihood of that claim.

Edge knew of the test protocal well in advance of the actual test. He could have easily "self tested" as no special equipment or conditions were really necessary.

Again, most dowsers (indeed, most people in general) don't understand the concepts of DB testing. Part of our job, should be to help them understand those concepts. Practically every dowser I've ever met, would not be able to set up any kind of DB self-test.

You're overthnking it I believe.

Could be. However, I actually have experience testing dowsers, and have otherwise worked with a few, so it's also possible that I understand some of the underlying psychology of dowsing.

If we wait for Edge, the test will frankly never occur.

Is that such a bad outcome? After all, there are plenty of other dowsers out there.

He's questioned the honesty of Randi and now seems to think there is a conspiracy against him.

I'm sure AR's used to that. I've had the exact same thing happen to me, by both treasure dowsers and treasure dowser predators (those that sell $5000 dowsing rods), who hate that I've exposed some of the outright fraud going on in their world. If you want to see some examples, read these LRL reports (http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geotech/pages/common/index.pl?page=lrl&file=reports.dat). They're a hoot.

[Tricky]

Edge
Very sweet, Edge. Did you write that yourself? Have you gotten over your anger? I hope so. Then we can get back to the topic at hand.

TechHead makes some very good points about establishing procedure. He would seem to be a very good person to contact as to preparing for your test, since he appears to have some experience with these tests.

TechHead
This is very interesting. In what capacity have you had the opportunity to test dowsers? The things you say jive very closely with what Randi has said of dowsers, namely that as a general rule they are not cheats or scam artists, but people who sincerely believe in their power. They also tend to believe in other "non-scientific" things. For your deceased dowser, it was new age cures. For Edge, it is UFOs and free energy devices.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about your tests of dowsers; how they came about, how they were done, how you got them to agree to being tested...
Fascinating stuff.

Wert
Maybe as TechHead suggests we are taking the wrong tack with Edge. Obviously, if he feels he is in a non-hostile environment, he is more likely to agree to testing. Also I agree that any way to reduce the availability of excuses is a good thing.

Personally, I still like my idea of using a piece of gold that was "dowsed' from a field location and using the same piece of gold in the same field for the double blind tests. That would seem to minimize the "environmental difference" possibilities.

[Edge]

Green eyes up there says your insane.
Wart tell me exactly what you don't understand about,
{I'm not ready yet}jeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?

[wert]

Originally posted by Edge
Green eyes up there says your insane.
Wart tell me exactly what you don't understand about,
{I'm not ready yet}jeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz? Ok Edge.

Why do you have to "be ready" to simply contact the JREF about the test?

All it takes is a simple e-mail, letter or call.

Randi and the JREF will help you to "get ready".

The time you spend here coming up with excuse after excuse could be better spent actually talking to Randi about setting up terms for a fair re-test.

I guess the fear of failure is even greater this time. :)

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Tricky
TechHead

This is very interesting. In what capacity have you had the opportunity to test dowsers? The things you say jive very closely with what Randi has said of dowsers, namely that as a general rule they are not cheats or scam artists, but people who sincerely believe in their power. They also tend to believe in other "non-scientific" things. For your deceased dowser, it was new age cures. For Edge, it is UFOs and free energy devices.

I'd be very interested in hearing more about your tests of dowsers; how they came about, how they were done, how you got them to agree to being tested...
Fascinating stuff.

My interest is solely in "treasure" dowsing. I don't mess with water dowsing, because I don't have the funds to investigate it, or properly test it. Also, I tinker a lot with metal detector designs, and other types of treasure hunting instruments (of the real variety).

Treasure dowsers call their devices "long range locators", or LRL for short. There have been various "LRL" forums over the years, the longest running is on TreasureNet (http://www.treasurenet.com/forum/locator). Over the past few years, I've hung out on these forums, and learned quite a bit about LRLers, discussed (& debated!) "theories", and heard about successes & failures.

I managed to talk a few of them into running through a simple almost-DB test. The test I typically use, is based on standard DB tests, using discrete locations and a single target. I ran the protocol by Randi years ago, to get his feedback on it. I call it almost-DB because, most often, there is just the dowser and me, and it cannot be run truly DB. So, I take extra precautions for that.

So far, 4 dowsers are 0-for-4. They all scored right at what is predicted for chance guessing. One dowser claimed to be a bit skeptical of what he was doing, and asked to be tested. After he failed the test, he went right on dowsing. On thing Randi told me way back then, is you will never, ever convince a dowser that they cannot do what they think are doing. So far, he's been right.

A bit of a funny story... on the LRL forum, there were a few dowsers that get together once a year in Quartzite, AZ, to compare notes and try out equipment. They don't like my views on LRLs (esp pointing out the fraud involved, see my last post), and knowing that I live in NC, they "invited" me to join them in Quartzite. There was a collective jaw-dropping when I walked into the local restaurant the morning they met, and introduced myself. We got along quite well, had a nice get-together, and I learned even more about their beliefs than I ever could reading a danged ol' forum. It was truly fascinating.

Honestly, I think folks should ease up on Edge. He ain't the enemy. If you want someone to growl at, take a look at the fraud involved in dowsing. Some of the treasure dowsing devices that I've gotten ahold of, are purely criminal. I'm currently posting full reports on the ones I've dissected, and intend to loan them to JREF for further scrutiny. People who make these things, have literally raked in millions of dollars (no exaggeration), not by finding buried treasure, but by wallet mining. IMO, these frauds should really be the target of JREF and the skeptical community, not the individual Edge's out there.

[Edge]

What I can't understand is why wart takes this whole concept so personally?
It’s not paranormal and it’s defiantly not tiny muscles under the skin because they would have to be stronger than the major muscles in your arms to get the stick to arch, hell I cant get it to do that on purpose.

Tech head I knew about the fake machines long ago you are a very logical and rational person, and a nice guy.

But I did understand the tests, but I had to try and there was a chance to make my daughter’s life and her sons a whole lot easier.

Her medicines cost between 500 & 800 dollars a month and she is only 23.


I would take ridicule any time to at least have a chance at tring to make her life and mine esaier, any time.


Now what I can’t figure is why in the field it’s 100% accurate, not only in detection but non-detection.

When you mine for a living you do not want to labor for nothing because you can starve.

Don’t give me it’s because of your knowledge of where to look that doesn’t cut it.
It can help to at least get you in the area and you maybe lucky or not but if your not and then you dowse and you hit every time, well then, there it is.
I will never mine blind again.

I will in the future make a film about its accuracy.
I am itching to mine soon though.

I know I will do excellent and I’m not worried about the million.
But I haven’t ruled out trying for it again.

I have used the same book knowledge before I knew how to dowse with very little success.

The oddest thing about it, and every miner has these thoughts, did I move enough ground? Did I leave any behind?
Once you make a hole you want to clean it totally.

Like I said before and I checked, because you could be a foot shy of hitting the big one, is there anything left?

It will tell if there’s anything left in your spot till you get every piece down to microns.
When I go to mine in Trinity Co; it will have been at least eight years since I was there last and the ground will be almost totally changed, what a challenge it will be and to see how much new stuff has been deposited in the traps.

There will be many new traps and boulder packs to look into.
I would rather be there to take a chance at that than to have to go back to Ft. Lauderdale, the farther south you go in Florida the crapper it gets I.M.H.O.
:cool:

[Tricky]

TechHead,
I read your links and I definately agree that the "high tech" companies that take advantage of dowsers are truly evil, whereas dowsers themselves are pretty much nice guys. I am not an electronics whiz, but even a layman like myself could see that those high-priced dowsing "tools" were nothing but a scam. Sadly, they will trap enough people with their mumbo jumbo to make a comfortable living.

Are you yourself a treasure hunter? you seem to know quite a bit about the business. I find it fascinating and while rather risky, smart people have made a lot of money, although it is telling that none of them have been dowsers.

Originally posted by Edge
What I can't understand is why wart takes this whole concept so personally?
It’s not paranormal and it’s defiantly not tiny muscles under the skin because they would have to be stronger than the major muscles in your arms to get the stick to arch, hell I cant get it to do that on purpose.
Wert (his name is not Wart) is annoyed by your self assured belief which flies in the face of evidence. He wants you to admit you lied (which is pretty much a matter of record by your own words). I only want you to realize, for your own good, that dowsing does not work. I hate to see you waste your life on this. If I seem rude, it is only because you ignore the good points many of us have made.

For example, if this force is so strong, then why can it not move a tiny pendulem of gold? Have you come up with a logical explanation for that, Edge? If not, then consider reexamining your axioms.


Originally posted by Edge
Tech head I knew about the fake machines long ago you are a very logical and rational person, and a nice guy.
Glad you realize that, Edge. Not all skeptics are jerks. If he is a logical and rational person, then do you think his tests of dowsers which have shown 100% failure of dowsing are also logical and rational? If not, what happened?


Originally posted by Edge
But I did understand the tests, but I had to try and there was a chance to make my daughter’s life and her sons a whole lot easier.

Her medicines cost between 500 & 800 dollars a month and she is only 23.

I would take ridicule any time to at least have a chance at tring to make her life and mine esaier, any time.
Your motives are quite noble, Edge. Who wouldn't want to make life better for their loved ones. But I think you have chosen a bad way to go about it. You would have a better chance at winning the lottery than to prove dowsing. This is the real world, Edge. Don't expect the dowsing fairy to save you. You have to do it with hard work and the help of others.

Believe me, I am very sorry for your families woes. I am supporting a mother and a sister who have very expensive medical bills, so really I am very sympathetic. I wish you the best of luck, but people make their own luck. Wishing that dowsing were real won't help your daughter.

Originally posted by Edge
Now what I can’t figure is why in the field it’s 100% accurate, not only in detection but non-detection.
Because you cannot completely test them in the field, especially non-detection. You probably don't spend much time looking in a place where your dowsing says there is no gold, yet this is what you must do to provide fairness. You must look every bit as hard in "no response" areas as in those where you get a response, otherwise, your experiment is prejudiced in favor of the area in which you looked harder. But even if you looked equally hard, you could never be 100% sure you hadn't missed something.

Originally posted by Edge
When you mine for a living you do not want to labor for nothing because you can starve.

Don’t give me it’s because of your knowledge of where to look that doesn’t cut it.
It can help to at least get you in the area and you maybe lucky or not but if your not and then you dowse and you hit every time, well then, there it is.
If you could prove your abilities to a mining company, Edge, you could make many times worth the value of gold you discover yourself. You would not starve, you would be rich. Have you considered trying to show your talents to a mining company? They own most of the land where mineral reserves are likely. If you could provide them with a reliable, relatively inexpensive way to find precious metals and ores, your fortune would be made. Have you ever heard of a dowser being employed by a mining company? If not, ask yourself why.


Originally posted by Edge
Don’t give me it’s because of your knowledge of where to look that doesn’t cut it.
It can help to at least get you in the area and you maybe lucky or not but if your not and then you dowse and you hit every time, well then, there it is.
I will never mine blind again.
There are none so blind as those who will not see. Why aren't there any people who became rich dowsing?

Originally posted by Edge
I will in the future make a film about its accuracy.
I am itching to mine soon though.
I hope you will do so, and show it to mining experts.

Originally posted by Edge
I know I will do excellent and I’m not worried about the million.
But I haven’t ruled out trying for it again.

It sounds as if you are leaning against it. Why? It is easy money if you really can dowse. Much easier than digging in the dirt. Why haven't you commented on my test of using autocthonous (found in the field) gold to run a test? If it finally proves to you that dowsing does not work, then it would be a blessing to you, because you would no longer waste your time on a fruitless pursuit.

Originally posted by Edge
The oddest thing about it, and every miner has these thoughts, did I move enough ground? Did I leave any behind?
Once you make a hole you want to clean it totally.
But you use your dowsing to tell you when to abandon a hole, do you not? If you do, then you are not using your dowsing ability. If you do not, then your do not trust your dowsing ability. The only fair way is to dig every hole the same, regardless of the dowsing response. Do you do this?

Originally posted by Edge
Like I said before and I checked, because you could be a foot shy of hitting the big one, is there anything left?
You never answered this question for me before, Edge. How deep can your dowsing ability pierce? Have you tested it?

Originally posted by Edge
It will tell if there’s anything left in your spot till you get every piece down to microns.
When I go to mine in Trinity Co; it will have been at least eight years since I was there last and the ground will be almost totally changed, what a challenge it will be and to see how much new stuff has been deposited in the traps.
Eight years? Do you have any idea of the slowness of geological processes? Please tell me this is a joke.

Originally posted by Edge
There will be many new traps and boulder packs to look into.
I would rather be there to take a chance at that than to have to go back to Ft. Lauderdale, the farther south you go in Florida the crappier it gets I.M.H.O.
:cool:
Yes, you are right, because there are no metamorphic rocks in the area from which gold deposits might originate. South Florida rocks are exclusively sedimentary and deposited almost wholly by the actions of the ocean. Any third-year geology student could tell you this, Edge. There are no "serious" gold miners in South Florida, other than the ones looking for sunken treasure.

Edge, please snap out of it. Your daughter needs help, not fantasies. You are doing her no favors by this mad quest.

[Edge]

I see that you have misinterpreted my whole post or at least most of it.

For instance.
In 1982 I left to go to Florida, then in 1995 I went back on vacation.
In that time the terrain of the creek were I mined had changed so much that I couldn't even recognize the area were I had left off at, the very spot were I had done so good.
You have no Idea tricky how quick the geological process work.
It is no joke.

In January of 1995 I was on salt creek and it was low it started to rain we seen the water level raise 4 feet in a half an hour and we then could hear boulders on the bottom start to move and make rumbling sounds, crashing into other boulders. I’m talking about 2 to 4 foot size boulders.


If you could prove your abilities to a mining company, Edge, you could make many times worth the value of gold you discover yourself. You would not starve, you would be rich. Have you considered trying to show your talents to a mining company? They own most of the land where mineral reserves are likely. If you could provide them with a reliable, relatively inexpensive way to find precious metals and ores, your fortune would be made. Have you ever heard of a dowser being employed by a mining company? If not, ask yourself why.


Most of those companies are strip mining with heavy equipment they don't care.

But the the guy "Tim P." that taught me how to dowse did exactly that and was rich but he did it in the 30s or 40s.


The last things I found from dowsing was five silver trays.

[Edge]

two

[Edge]

Three, I havent took pictures of the other two, they are all differnt,and all were in a stack.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge
I see that you have misinterpreted my whole post or at least most of it.

For instance.
In 1982 I left to go to Florida, then in 1995 I went back on vacation.
In that time the terrain of the creek were I mined had changed so much that I couldn't even recognize the area were I had left off at, the very spot were I had done so good.
You have no Idea tricky how quick the geological process work.
It is no joke.

In January of 1995 I was on salt creek and it was low it started to rain we seen the water level raise 4 feet in a half an hour and we then could hear boulders on the bottom start to move and make rumbling sounds, crashing into other boulders. I’m talking about 2 to 4 foot size boulders.
So you are talking about uncovering more gold, not about refilling old traps, as you suggested earlier. But this is damaging to your case. You should have been able to find the gold earlier, even if it was covered, right? This is why I cannot accept your story that you are "certain that there is no gold remaining", when it is clear that you cannot be sure of that.

Of course, you have never answered the question about the range of your dowsing ability. It is obviously more than a few feet, since you were thrown off in your test with Randi by objects many feet away (and behind walls).

Originally posted by Edge
Most of those companies are strip mining with heavy equipment they don't care.
On the contrary, they care very much. Strip mining is very expensive work. If you can direct them so that they don't have to do as much stripping to find their targets, then you would be amply rewarded. Their payout is bigger, so their pockets are deeper.

Originally posted by Edge
But the the guy "Tim P." that taught me how to dowse did exactly that and was rich but he did it in the 30s or 40s.
Then why aren't you rich? If he was able to do so well, and he taught you, then logically, you should have done just as well. Did all of his money come from dowsing?

Originally posted by Edge
The last things I found from dowsing was five silver trays.
Were you dowsing for silver at the time? If not, then one could only assume you stumbled on them by sheer luck. By the way, have you had those trays appraised yet? Maybe they could pay for some of your daughter's medicine.

[Edge]

tricky said,
So you are talking about uncovering more gold, not about refilling old traps, as you suggested earlier. But this is damaging to your case. You should have been able to find the gold earlier, even if it was covered, right? This is why I cannot accept your story that you are "certain that there is no gold remaining", when it is clear that you cannot be sure of that.

What the hell are you talking about?

It's obvious you know nothing about how gold moves down and into a river or creek.

I'll have to figure out how to educate you on this issue.


Then why aren't you rich? If he was able to do so well, and he taught you, then logically, you should have done just as well. Did all of his money come from dowsing?



Were you dowsing for silver at the time? If not, then one could only assume you stumbled on them by sheer luck. By the way, have you had those trays appraised yet? Maybe they could pay for some of your daughter's medicine.

See there you go agian being a smart asss.

I gave you all a list of things a long time ago about what can be a target when dowsing 4 gold, duhu.
Gold, silver, platinum, and the major one, feilds of energy,{E.M.E.}.

When doing the D.B. test at my sisiters house those trays were picked up as a majore interferance and there was one other spot under the slab next to the pool, that was pretty good here in Florida.
The reason those trays were there she threw them out there for her X husband to pick up.
He didn't and they stayed there for months till she moved then right before she sold the house I did my testing there on the other side of the house.
Did you understand that?
They were buried and grown over by grass.

Out in the fields there are no E.M.E.

When I said it gets crappier the farther south you go in Florida it had nothing to do with minig here in Florida, it had to do with wall to wall city,heat and people.

It's tricky just talking to you, I thought I was clear.

I'll be back to break it down to you later about placer mining in the mountains God, I think {sigh}

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge

What the hell are you talking about?

It's obvious you know nothing about how gold moves down and into a river or creek.

I'll have to figure out how to educate you on this issue.
I admit I am a soft-rock geologist, however, I have seen no evidence from you that you know anything about geology. Maybe you have learned a few good places to look for gold, and I am happy for you.

As for educating me, why don't you explain in simple terms how gold moves down and into a stream. Truly, I am curious.

Originally posted by Edge
See there you go agian being a smart ass.
I was not being a smart ass. I was genuinely concerned for your daughter. If dowsing is not paying enough to cover her expenses, perhaps you should investigate a more stable source of income.

Originally posted by Edge
I gave you all a list of things a long time ago about what can be a target when dowsing 4 gold, duhu.
Gold, silver, platinum, and the major one, feilds of energy,{E.M.E.}.

Fields of energy? What sort of energy fields are you talking about? Your dowsing rod should go nuts when it gets near electrical lines. But this is a good and easy way to test yourself. You should be able to tell whether or not there is current running through a wire or not, since electricity sets up a powerful EM field. You should also be able to detect underground cables. But if you are talking about the "energy" in quartz, you should know that quartz is the most common mineral on the earth's surface. Oh, and you are aware that the Earth itself has a magnetic field, no?

You should also get a strong response from copper and nickel, since copper is in line with gold and silver, and nickel with platinum on the periodic table. It has always been amazing to me that dowsers zero in on valuable elements, but not on similar but common elements. Can you explain how this works?

Originally posted by Edge
When doing the D.B. test at my sisiters house those trays were picked up as a majore interferance and there was one other spot under the slab next to the pool, that was pretty good here in Florida.
The reason those trays were there she threw them out there for her X husband to pick up.
He didn't and they stayed there for months till she moved then right before she sold the house I did my testing there on the other side of the house.
Did you understand that?
They were buried and grown over by grass.
Funny, sounded like they were antique things that nobody could have known were there, only to find out you know who put them there. Are you even certain they are silver? Lots of things look like silver, but aren't. Sacagawea dollers look gold, but aren't. Does dowsing pick up steel as well? How about chromium?

Also I am curious about this "double blind" test you were doing. Could you describe how you set up this test? What were the results?

Originally posted by Edge
Out in the fields there are no E.M.E.
You'd be surprised. How far away from civilization were you? Any cars nearby? Did you have a flashlight on you? A battery powered watch? Do you have any dental work?
It is extremely rare when humans are able to completely escape their civilization.
Originally posted by Edge
When I said it gets crappier the farther south you go in Florida it had nothing to do with minig here in Florida, it had to do with wall to wall city,heat and people.

Too bad. I thought maybe you realized that it had to do with the fact that you are so far away from a source of gold.

How does heat affect dowsing?

Originally posted by Edge
It's tricky just talking to you, I thought I was clear.

I'll be back to break it down to you later about placer mining in the mountains God, I think {sigh}.
No, Edge, I am afraid you are not clear at all. Perhaps this is because you are not skilled at writing, but I suspect it is because you cannot make this hodge-podge of beliefs which defies the laws of physics, fit into any logical framework.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Tricky
TechHead,
I read your links and I definately agree that the "high tech" companies that take advantage of dowsers are truly evil, whereas dowsers themselves are pretty much nice guys. I am not an electronics whiz, but even a layman like myself could see that those high-priced dowsing "tools" were nothing but a scam. Sadly, they will trap enough people with their mumbo jumbo to make a comfortable living.

Are you yourself a treasure hunter? you seem to know quite a bit about the business. I find it fascinating and while rather risky, smart people have made a lot of money, although it is telling that none of them have been dowsers.


Treasure hunter? S'pose you could say that, as I do hunt. But it's mostly with a metal detector, and mostly for Civil War relics. Also, a little gold panning here & there. But, my profession is electronics engineering, and my interests are mostly in the design of devices such as metal detectors, magnetometers, etc.

Highly successful treasure finders, such as Mel Fisher, Tommy Thompson, Carl Fismer, Bob Marx, and others, have made some very nice discoveries, but not with dowsing equipment. However, don't think for a minute that people who use dowsing devices never find anything -- they do, although not because the dowsing device played the role they'd like to believe it played. Thus, some stories of successful dowsing, coupled with a bit of fraudulent advertising, keep unsuspecting folks buying into the LRL scams.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Edge
It’s not paranormal and it’s defiantly not tiny muscles under the skin because they would have to be stronger than the major muscles in your arms to get the stick to arch, hell I cant get it to do that on purpose.

Most dowsing proponents who seriously study dowsing, now admit that dowsing devices are reacting to minute muscular movements (ideomotor action). I believe even the ASD agrees with this. In the case of a y-rod, it is held with a lot of applied torsion, such that it takes very little to get it to unwind. Where dowsers & skeptics usually disagree, is what triggers the ideomotor action.

Now what I can’t figure is why in the field it’s 100% accurate, not only in detection but non-detection.

When I go to mine in Trinity Co...

You may have answered your own question. Trinity County is one of the best gold panning areas in the entire lower 48. Despite having been heavily worked, they never get it all, and anyone who pans, is likely to find some gold. Especially anyone who has the slightest idea as to where to look, which I'm sure you do. So, your y-rod may be responding to your own intuition.

[davefoc]

Hi Edge,
I'm the guy that asked you a while back if you had any theories as to what might make dowsing work. I'm still curious about that.

Does dowsing work if it is done with a mechanical fixture holding the dowsing rods or is the human interaction with the rods a critical element? If the human element is required maybe the dowsing effect can be interfered with.

Have you considered the possibility that just as you were to be tested last time Tricky, Techhead or Wert went into a big psychic meditation and loused up your results Tricky and Techhead seem like they might be a little too nice for this, but Wert, doesn't seem to have their limitations in this area.

Lastly, some people have brought up the issue of metal detectors. It seems like for some of the dowsing you do a metal detector might work pretty well. Do you have any thoughts about where it's better to use dowsing instead of metal detecters?

[Edge]

Q
Does dowsing work if it is done with a mechanical fixture holding the dowsing rods or is the human interaction with the rods a critical element? If the human element is required maybe the dowsing effect can be interfered with.
A
I don’t know but it would be interesting to have time do many experiments Dave.

Q
Have you considered the possibility that just as you were to be tested last time Tricky, Techhead or Wert went into a big psychic meditation and loused up your results Tricky and Techhead seem like they might be a little too nice for this, but Wert, doesn't seem to have their limitations in this area

A
LOL, I doubt that anyone could have an effect that way.
But if wart looked anything like his little clown picture then that could throw a person into some kind of a nervous fit.

Q
Lastly, some people have brought up the issue of metal detectors. It seems like for some of the dowsing you do a metal detector might work pretty well. Do you have any thoughts about where it's better to use dowsing instead of metal detecters?
A
Metal detectors are a very good tool, however they are limited in depth and distance.
Now a days I’m not sure what that is that would be a good way to check a dowser on most spots and then to bring it up and recheck the spot over, first the dowser then the metal detector to see which is better, did I lose you Tricky.
Tech head can probably answer the depth question.



Tech head said,
“Most dowsing proponents who seriously study dowsing, now admit that dowsing devices are reacting to minute muscular movements (ideomotor action). I believe even the ASD agrees with this. In the case of a y-rod, it is held with a lot of applied torsion, such that it takes very little to get it to unwind. Where dowsers & skeptics usually disagree, is what triggers the ideomotor action.”

I disagree I don’t need any side ways tension to get it to move and there is no way to wind up a branch.
First off you’re talking about a circle of wood, or copper.
If you wind it up then there would be immediate movement.

I can get the same thing with a copper wire bent in a Y configuration with a loop in the end and then you have the two copper wires in a L shape held separately with out completing a circuit.

You cannot use side ways tension in those.

I think there is something more to this accuracy or not.

The pendulum method is strange and I have no Idea except maybe the movement of the earth might be involved don’t know about that one.

What I think is this, that most of the heavier metals are laying on the earth’s magnetic field and there is a distortion in the spot where they are laying and that’s what is changed and being picked up not the metal it self whether in the ground or above or higher. That would explain the experiment that Tricky proposed to see if movement could be induced in a suspended piece of gold as another piece was used to dowse it, like a magnet does, it doesn’t work that way.

Metal detectors are actually reading the metal that’s if I’m correct, that might be the difference.
Z edge

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge
Q
Have you considered the possibility that just as you were to be tested last time Tricky, Techhead or Wert went into a big psychic meditation and loused up your results Tricky and Techhead seem like they might be a little too nice for this, but Wert, doesn't seem to have their limitations in this area

A
LOL, I doubt that anyone could have an effect that way.
But if wart looked anything like his little clown picture then that could throw a person into some kind of a nervous fit.
That's interesting. Lots of people who claim paranormal abilities (including my wife) believe that skeptics cast out "vibes" that nullify their powers. As always, these vibes are undetectable except by their results.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Edge
Q
Lastly, some people have brought up the issue of metal detectors. It seems like for some of the dowsing you do a metal detector might work pretty well. Do you have any thoughts about where it's better to use dowsing instead of metal detecters?
A
Metal detectors are a very good tool, however they are limited in depth and distance.
Now a days I’m not sure what that is that would be a good way to check a dowser on most spots and then to bring it up and recheck the spot over, first the dowser then the metal detector to see which is better, did I lose you Tricky.
Tech head can probably answer the depth question.
No, I am right with you, Edge. In fact I have asked you many times (and you have answered me zero) about the range of your dowsing powers. Obviously you feel that it is greater than that of a metal detector. How deep then? What affects the range?

Originally posted by Edge
I disagree I don’t need any side ways tension to get it to move and there is no way to wind up a branch.
First off you’re talking about a circle of wood, or copper.
If you wind it up then there would be immediate movement.

I can get the same thing with a copper wire bent in a Y configuration with a loop in the end and then you have the two copper wires in a L shape held separately with out completing a circuit.

You cannot use side ways tension in those.
Most dowsing devices are held in an unstable equilibrium. You are the only one I have ever heard that said he held it firmly and a powerful attractive force yanked it down even when you tried to act against the force. You might want to talk to some other dowsers about this phenomenon, which is unusual even for dowsers.


Originally posted by Edge
The pendulum method is strange and I have no idea except maybe the movement of the earth might be involved don’t know about that one.
You don't have any idea how the stick method works either. See below.


Originally posted by Edge
What I think is this, that most of the heavier metals are laying on the earth’s magnetic field and there is a distortion in the spot where they are laying and that’s what is changed and being picked up not the metal it self whether in the ground or above or higher. That would explain the experiment that Tricky proposed to see if movement could be induced in a suspended piece of gold as another piece was used to dowse it, like a magnet does, it doesn’t work that way.
This is absolutely ludicrous. Gold, silver and platinum are non-magnetic and have no affect on the earth's magnetic field. Iron, on the other hand, should send your dowsing rod crazy, yet you never seem to detect this very common metal. Also, if it is the heaviness of the metal that causes the reaction, then you should be finding a great deal of lead.

As to your excuse for why you can't attract a gold pendulum, it is equally farcical. For one thing, the magnetic field of the earth extends far above the earth's surface (and in fact holds the Van Allen radiation belts in place). But if you are worried about it, lower the pendulem untill it just touches the ground, then try to attract it with your dowsing rod. Of course, if you are dowsing for gold dust lying on the ground, the attractive force of the rod should make it leap up off of the ground and stick to the rod.


Originally posted by Edge
Metal detectors are actually reading the metal that’s if I’m correct, that might be the difference.

And what is dowsing reading? Don't tell me the energy field. I already asked why you couldn't dowse current in a wire. As I recall, that question went unanswered too.

[Edge]

And what is dowsing reading? Don't tell me the energy field. I already asked why you couldn't dowse current in a wire. As I recall, that question went unanswered too.

Oh but it can and that ain't all. A lot of bell south guys do it down here on new houses but they use the L wires. I think I have seen the cable guys do it too when there little machines fail them in locating the wires they are looking for, and they are able to compleat there job.

This is absolutely ludicrous. Gold, silver and platinum are non-magnetic and have no affect on the earth's magnetic field. Iron, on the other hand, should send your dowsing rod crazy, yet you never seem to detect this very common metal. Also, if it is the heaviness of the metal that causes the reaction, then you should be finding a great deal of lead.

How would you know?

Lead in the pockets where gold is found is found with gold but I never separated the two to see. More experiments are needed.


I have given you a distance before, The Kelly mine can be picked up any where up to at least 7 miles in the valley of Hay fork I can get a direction from anywhere.

I have checked.
Depth is as far as I can tell 12 feet after that I don't know but I suspect even deeper. That's the deepest overburden that I have uncovered with success.

Most dowsing devices are held in an unstable equilibrium.

You are wrong it has to be stable or the reaction does not occur.

If it is unstable it will fall or shoot up or down.

It's a balance and that makes it sensitive and if I can stop the reaction then there is little if I can'tthen I start to mine with the big dredge.
The copper wire one is most important, you really should try it. You need something thick like the copper wire they use to ground the meter box where the service for a house comes in from your electric company, don’t know the gauge right at the moment. Thick enough to grasp and hold its shape.

Another thing I notice when doing this is some form of jucie going through my hands and arms It will wear you out slowly like a good long jolt of 110, if you get enough of a jolt of electricity you'll feel sleepy and tired.

The reason for gold or platinum is that the reaction is stronger for silver it's slightly weaker, lead is I think 11 times lighter than gold so it would be weaker, a weaker distortion in the field.
Never tried Iron either. Heaviest metals on the atomic scale are what tipped me off, time is a factor in what a person can do and I seem to be busy all the time.

I'll have to try some of your thoughts one day soon.

I have seen some of the other dowsers hold it like you said and I find it quite amusing.

I don't know if this means any thing or not but the other day at the d.m.v. I was out side and was waiting I happened to notice a Y stick on the ground I think it was oak so I decided to look for water and I dowse under hand.

I have a hard time over hand with all most no reaction any way the stick went in reverse or pointed up and back around in one spot it was hard and strong for water, no Idea what it was seeking so I decided to see since it was so strong could I get it to work the same way over handed wouldn't the tiny muscles in my skin make it go the opposite direction? It didn’t it went to the source in the same direction up and over. Just a thought.


I don't mean to not answer it is just hard to type all this stuff.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Edge
Q
Does dowsing work if it is done with a mechanical fixture holding the dowsing rods or is the human interaction with the rods a critical element? If the human element is required maybe the dowsing effect can be interfered with.
A
I don’t know but it would be interesting to have time do many experiments Dave.

Myself, and several others, have tried this with a variety of LRL-type gadgets. All fail to do anything.

The most interesting experiment I've come up with, is to take an L-rod type device, and add a counterweight such that it is 100% balanced about the pivot point (the handle), then hold it in the normal fashion. You would think that, if there is a true physical attraction between the rod and, say, gold, the rod would still function. But it does not. In both this case, and in the case where the device is fixture-mounted, ideomotor has been removed, and the device ceases to function.

Compare this to the common magnetic compass, where ideomotor has also been removed, yet the compass still points north. This is an example of a real physical attraction, and a case where ideomotor would muss up the results.

Metal detectors are a very good tool, however they are limited in depth and distance.
Now a days I’m not sure what that is that would be a good way to check a dowser on most spots and then to bring it up and recheck the spot over, first the dowser then the metal detector to see which is better, did I lose you Tricky.
Tech head can probably answer the depth question.

Detectors are VERY limited in depth. A single coin at maybe 8-10 inches, a matchhead nugget at 4 or 5 inches. Yet, most "commercial" LRLs claim depths up to 100 feet, and distances on the order of a mile.

Most treasure dowsers I'm familiar with, all use metal detectors for "ground truthing" their dowse. That is, if the detector ain't beepin', don't bother diggin'. So anyone who ground truths with a metal detector is (a) limiting their LRL to a few inches depth, and (b) basically metal detecting. Also, I don't know of any LRL'ers who keep a journal of "hits" and "misses", so they have no idea if the LRL is making any difference or not.

Tech head said,
“Most dowsing proponents who seriously study dowsing, now admit that dowsing devices are reacting to minute muscular movements (ideomotor action). I believe even the ASD agrees with this. In the case of a y-rod, it is held with a lot of applied torsion, such that it takes very little to get it to unwind. Where dowsers & skeptics usually disagree, is what triggers the ideomotor action.”

I disagree I don’t need any side ways tension to get it to move and there is no way to wind up a branch.

I've used a y-rod -- to "properly" use one, you have to apply torsion to it, by twisting the handles either inward or outward, when holding it. This creates an unstable situation, and if you just stand there with your eyes closed, the y-rod will pop out due to slight movements in the hands.

I haven't used circular dowsing devices, so I can't comment on their use.

The pendulum method is strange and I have no Idea except maybe the movement of the earth might be involved don’t know about that one.

Nope, strictly hand movement and, of course, gravity. (Gravity plays a key role in L-rods, but not necessarily Y-rods.) Pendulums have been placed in fixtures, and they just don't move, without a hand to make them move.

Metal detectors are actually reading the metal that’s if I’m correct, that might be the difference.

Metal detectors operate on the principle of induction, same as a transformer. They require an AC-type signal to work.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by Tricky
This is absolutely ludicrous. Gold, silver and platinum are non-magnetic and have no affect on the earth's magnetic field.

Ooops... actually, they can. While non-magnetic metals and ores don't concentrate magnetic fields, they can displace ferromagnetic soils that normally do concentrate the Earth's magnetic field. Therefore, ore bodies that displace magnetic soils, can affect the magnetic field, in a sorta reverse way. Aerial magnetometers are sometimes used to search for this effect.

But, we're talking big honkin' bodies of ore here, not nuggets. :)

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge
Oh but it can and that ain't all. A lot of bell south guys do it down here on new houses but they use the L wires. I think I have seen the cable guys do it too when there little machines fail them in locating the wires they are looking for, and they are able to compleat there job.
Yes, but you have already indicated that you can't tell one source from another (like you found the "silver" trays when dowsing for gold). Likewise, you should not be able to tell power lines or any other EM field from gold. If you were standing under power lines, your dowsing rod ought to jerk upward very strongly.

Originally posted by Edge
How would you know?
I'm just going by what you say, Edge. I don't believe any of it. You were the one that was saying it had to do with the "heaviness" of the metal (by which I assume you mean density). I am merely showing you where this theory falls down.
Originally posted by Edge
Lead in the pockets where gold is found is found with gold but I never separated the two to see. More experiments are needed.
Yes, but you should find lead by itself too. It is more dense than silver. If you ever douse where there has been hunting, there will be a lot of lead shot lying around.

Originally posted by Edge
I have given you a distance before, The Kelly mine can be picked up any where up to at least 7 miles in the valley of Hay fork I can get a direction from anywhere.

I have checked.
Depth is as far as I can tell 12 feet after that I don't know but I suspect even deeper. That's the deepest overburden that I have uncovered with success.

Thank you, Edge. So if you have a 12 foot depth range, then you must dig every hole, including the ones where you have no dowsing response, a minimum of 12 feet deep, and carefully examine the diggings in order to "prove" that the gold is gone. If you do not do this, then you can understand why we cannot simply accept your contention that there is no gold left?

Seven miles, eh? Does your dowsing rod also point out the location of the nearest jewelry store?

Originally posted by Edge
You are wrong it has to be stable or the reaction does not occur.
Not according to other dowsers. In fact I believe you told me about a fellow you dowsed with who held his dowsing rod loosely on the top of his hands.

Originally posted by Edge
It's a balance and that makes it sensitive and if I can stop the reaction then there is little if I can'tthen I start to mine with the big dredge.

And how has that worked out so far? You shouldn't even need Randi's million.

Originally posted by Edge
The reason for gold or platinum is that the reaction is stronger for silver it's slightly weaker, lead is I think 11 times lighter than gold so it would be weaker, a weaker distortion in the field.
Never tried Iron either. Heaviest metals on the atomic scale are what tipped me off, time is a factor in what a person can do and I seem to be busy all the time.
LOL! Hardly (http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/magconda.htm). Gold is not even twice as dense as lead. Silver is much less dense than lead. Platinum varies widely depending on it's purity , but when pure, it is denser than gold. It is almost never found in a pure state in nature, the way gold is.

If you are going by atomic weight, lead(207.2) is higher than gold(197.0) , platinum (195.1) or silver (107.9). The atomic number of lead is also higher than any of the other three.
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Ag/key.html

So, all in all, your explanation of how dowsing works is completely at odds with all the evidence. However, I do appreciate the attempt. It is only by examining your assumptions that you find out when they are faulty.

************
TechHead said
Ooops... actually, they can. While non-magnetic metals and ores don't concentrate magnetic fields, they can displace ferromagnetic soils that normally do concentrate the Earth's magnetic field. Therefore, ore bodies that displace magnetic soils, can affect the magnetic field, in a sorta reverse way. Aerial magnetometers are sometimes used to search for this effect.

But, we're talking big honkin' bodies of ore here, not nuggets.
D'oh! You're right of course. Sort of the same way we discover black holes; by their lack of radiation. But as you note, not noticable on a small scale.

[Edge]

What ever, Istill say it's a distortion that's picked up.

[Edge]

Check it out.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Edge
Check it out.

Obviously, someone above is throwing the bull.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge
What ever, Istill say it's a distortion that's picked up.
I must say I am amazed by your brilliant defense of your theories.

"Whatever".

It is a shame you were not on the prosecution team in the O. J. Simpson case. That murderer would surely be in the slammer now.

Yes, it's a distortion all right. Reality is distorted within a 12 foot radius of you.

[Edge]

TRICKSY SAID

It is a shame you were not on the prosecution team in the O. J. Simpson case. That murderer would surely be in the slammer now.

Yes, it's a distortion all right. Reality is distorted within a 12 foot radius of you.


__________________

HE WOULD BE AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU JUST HAVE TO TURN NASTY UH?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Edge
TRICKSY SAID

It is a shame you were not on the prosecution team in the O. J. Simpson case. That murderer would surely be in the slammer now.

Yes, it's a distortion all right. Reality is distorted within a 12 foot radius of you.


__________________

HE WOULD BE AND WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU JUST HAVE TO TURN NASTY UH?
I'm sorry, Edge, but when I present evidence that refutes your theories and all you can do is say "whatever", it is a tad frustrating. You say it is distortion. Distortion of what? I've already shown why it can't be the earth's magnetic field (or you would pick up ferromagnetic metals like iron better than gold). It is certainly not gravity, since lead is more dense than silver. It is not electromagnetic, or you would be drawn to every nearby power source. What is it then, Edge? How does it work? Every thing you have proposed so far has been shown to be illogical. You have failed every real dowsing test you have ever taken. You have shown that you don't know the difference between real gold and gold colored coins. You have demonstrated that you do not know basic chemistry, geology or physics. How the heck do you manage to hold on to your delusions?

No, I'm not being nasty to you. I'm being tough on you. You are a nice guy who refuses to deal with reality. I'm trying to force you to learn how to reason. I know you don't believe this, but it will do you good in the long run.

And in all my "nastiness" I have never made fun of or changed the spelling of your forum name.

[Baker]

Originally posted by Tricky

I'm sorry, Edge, but when I present evidence that refutes your theories and all you can do is say "whatever", it is a tad frustrating. You say it is distortion. Distortion of what? I've already shown why it can't be the earth's magnetic field (or you would pick up ferromagnetic metals like iron better than gold). It is certainly not gravity, since lead is more dense than silver. It is not electromagnetic, or you would be drawn to every nearby power source. What is it then, Edge? How does it work? Every thing you have proposed so far has been shown to be illogical. You have failed every real dowsing test you have ever taken. You have shown that you don't know the difference between real gold and gold colored coins. You have demonstrated that you do not know basic chemistry, geology or physics. How the heck do you manage to hold on to your delusions?

No, I'm not being nasty to you. I'm being tough on you. You are a nice guy who refuses to deal with reality. I'm trying to force you to learn how to reason. I know you don't believe this, but it will do you good in the long run.

And in all my "nastiness" I have never made fun of or changed the spelling of your forum name.


I come back after 3 months and your still debating Edge in the same thread Tricky this might even out last the The "Carlos Swett affair" thread.

[robbersdog]

Sorry Tricky, but I think you're wrong to be asking Edge how dowsing works. The question surely must be if Edge can dowse or not. He doesn't have to know how it works.

My girlfriend has no idea what goes on inside an internal combustion engine. For all she knows it might just as well have a load of little pixies on a treadmill inside it. Even if this is what she believed, she would still be able to move the car using the engine.

Just because Edge isn't a scientist / doesn't understand the theories you've asked him to explain / is just making this explaination up, it doesn't effect his ability to dowse either way.

The million dollar challenge ask that the applicant proves his or her ability. It doesn't ask for an explaination of how they've done it.

[TechHead]

Originally posted by robbersdog
Sorry Tricky, but I think you're wrong to be asking Edge how dowsing works. The question surely must be if Edge can dowse or not. He doesn't have to know how it works.

I agree, the average dowsing practitioner probably doesn't understand what is going on. Most dowsers believe in "theories" that have simply been passed along to them, and can't adequately explain or defend those theories, much like your example of the internal combustion engine. And it