Yale Grades Portry Kerry as Lackluster Student

[BPSCG]

From the Boston Globe.
During last year's presidential campaign, John F. Kerry was the candidate often portrayed as intellectual and complex, while George W. Bush was the populist who mangled his sentences.

But newly released records show that Bush and Kerry had a virtually identical grade average at Yale University four decades ago.

In 1999, The New Yorker published a transcript indicating that Bush had received a cumulative score of 77 for his first three years at Yale and a roughly similar average under a non-numerical rating system during his senior year.

Kerry, who graduated two years before Bush, got a cumulative 76 for his four years, according to a transcript that Kerry sent to the Navy when he was applying for officer training school. He received four D's in his freshman year out of 10 courses, but improved his average in later years.Link (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student? mode=PF) &nbsp Warning: Link contains terrifying photo of Kerry.

[Cain]

Ah, thanks for the link; I was wondering what the hell you were trying to say in the thread title. It turns out you mis-spelled "portray" while bringing up someone's else's grade point average.

[mr rosewater]

due to the photo no doubt

[Cleon]

But newly released records show that Bush and Kerry had a virtually identical grade average at Yale University four decades ago.


Thread title: "Yale Grades Portry Kerry as Lackluster Student"

So are you admitting that Bush was a lackluster student, BPSCG? ;)

[Manny]

Wait. These transcripts were attached to his military records? The ones he has delayed releasing? Weren't those records rumored during the campaign to have something like a dishonorable discharge or something similar? Whatever happened to that? The big secret turns out to be that John Kerry was an activities dweeb and his grades suffered for it when he hit the Ivy League and tried to keep up the pace? Color me unimpressed.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Cain
It turns out you mis-spelled "portray" while bringing up someone's else's grade point average. :con2:

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by Cleon
So are you admitting that Bush was a lackluster student, BPSCG? ;) Hell, he even said so himself.

I was right up there with those guys. Freshman year, first semester, 2 C's, 2 D's, and an F.

My father was not pleased...

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by BPSCG
Warning: Link contains terrifying photo of Kerry. Lurch vs. Alfred E. Neuman?

[Jorghnassen]

I thought Kerry was dead and forgotten since November 3rd, 2004...

[Manny]

Originally posted by Jorghnassen
I thought Kerry was dead and forgotten since November 3rd, 2004... Well you're just not reading the right blogs, J. Not only isn't Kerry forgotten, he's going to initiate the glorious impeachment (http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=8681) of BUSHITLERH411i8URT0N!TM on account of the scrawled, unsubstantiated opinion of a single officer in the British military.

[Batman Jr.]

Originally posted by BPSCG
From the Boston Globe.
Link (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student? mode=PF) &nbsp Warning: Link contains terrifying photo of Kerry.
Uh oh. You're presenting an article which places a more congenial-looking picture of Bush next to a more bizarre one of Kerry to possibly invite unfounded feelings of favoritism for the former. This is an obvious sign of your pronounced irrationality and bias, BPSCG, and perhaps an even greater one than that one which you ascribe to my own false preconceptions, namely how I call far-right wingers "far-right wingers."

[jj]

And the next campaign starts.

Vilification 101: Lie early, lie often.

I don't doubt Kerry's freshman grades weren't so great, I've seen a lot of people having a hard time adapting to "put up or shut up".

Especially kids whose parents have money. That fits both the draft dodger and the war hero.

[corplinx]

We had a poster here named Patrick who I chided for calling Senator Kerry by the name "Lurch". After seeing this photo, I think I owe Patrick and apology.

[Phillybee]

I bet that posting this link on democraticunderground would bring down the ban stick on you in record time.

[Skeptic]

Uh oh. You're presenting an article which places a more congenial-looking picture of Bush next to a more bizarre one of Kerry to possibly invite unfounded feelings of favoritism for the former.

He didn't do it--the BOSTON GLOBE did it. And the Boston Globe is, to say the least, not exactly known as a big GWB fan, nor is it some unknown source. If anything, it tends to be pro-Kerry and pro-democrat. If there is a bias against Kerry here, it might be by the person who chose those two photos, not the Boston Globe as a whole.

But, I have to say... whomever was responsible for that photo, WTF??? I mean, OH MY GOD. I've seen rubber zombies in Ed Wood films that looked more lifelike and charming. Was that really the best picture of Kerry they could find from the period???

In hebrew there's an expression: "A murder photo", meaning a photo that makes one look like a murder suspect (used for dinky automatic passport photos in particular). That's a "murder photo" if I ever saw one.

However, as I was unimpressed with the criticism that Bush is "stupid" because his grades at college were Cs, I am equally unimpressed with the criticism that Kerry (or Gore, for that matter) is "stupid" for getting Cs, too.

This is for two reasons:

a). Grade inflation, while certainly an issue that began at the time, was nowhere near today's level. A "C" average then is about a "B+" or "A-" average today.

b). Grades on tests in college are by no means a good indicator of how smart or stupid someone is. At most, there is some weak correlation.

This is an obvious sign of your pronounced irrationality and bias, BPSCG, and perhaps an even greater one than that one which you ascribe to my own false preconceptions, namely how I call far-right wingers "far-right wingers."

Er... yeah... c'mon, admit it: you're playing the "enraged liberal finding deep disgusting motives with everything a conservative says" online just for laughs, aren't you?

[Manny]

Originally posted by Skeptic
[B] He didn't do it--the BOSTON GLOBE did it. And the Boston Globe is, to say the least, not exactly known as a big GWB fan, nor is it some unknown source. If anything, it tends to be pro-Kerry and pro-democrat. If there is a bias against Kerry here, it might be by the person who chose those two photos, not the Boston Globe as a whole. Sort of. The Globe, a wholly-owned subsidiary of The New York TImes Company, is in fact pro-Democrat, and they did indeed endorse Senator Kerry in the recent presidential election. But they hate John Kerry. They've always hated him, they will always hate him, and they will never, ever miss a chance to tweak him. If there were four class pictures of Kerry at Yale, you can be confident they picked the goofiest-looking one.

That said, I agree that BPSCG is blameless here. It was the Boston Globe who broke the story -- it's entirely proper to link to an original source.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by corplinx
We had a poster here named Patrick who I chided for calling Senator Kerry by the name "Lurch". Ah, Patrick, my lad, we hardly knew ye.

Batman and JJ, FYI, I also came down on Patrick over that Lurch business; IIRC, I used the term "childish and immature" to describe his posts. You know I had little good to say about Kerry, but I believe I did try to keep it above the belt.

FYI II: There's an undoctored photo of me in a January, 1996 issue of the Weekly World News that looks like my eyes were snatched at random from two different people - perhaps even two different species. Makes Kerry look like Adonis.

I keep that photo - and the entire page containing the story ("Mars Rover Discovered Giant Fish In Space!!!" - tacked up over my desk at work, to scare people away.

[CBL4]

A few of notes from the articles:

1) Between his freshman and senior year, Kerry's grades improved from 71 to 81.
2) "It is noteworthy, however, that Kerry received a high honor at Yale despite his mediocre grades." Not sure what high honor means if it does not correspond to grades.
3) "He went on to be a top student at Naval Candidate School"

CBL

[Skeptic]

If there were four class pictures of Kerry at Yale, you can be confident they picked the goofiest-looking one.

Possibly... possibly... but even if they dislike Kerry, they dislike Bush more, and would not make him look good at Kerry's expense if they can avoid it.

Maybe I'm wrong and you're right... but, in any case, I think that it's FAR more likely that this isn't deliberate either way, it's just a bored worker putting the web site together adding the "kerrycollege.jpg" and "bushcollege.jpg" files to the web page without bothering too much with what they say.

Never attribute to a conspiracy what's easily attributable to laziness / stupidity / incompetence.

[WildCat]

You're all missing the real story here: Bush at his most drunken, coke-snortin', draft-dodgin' frat boy partying worst was still able to pull a better grade than Kerry at his sober best. :D

But as Frank Zappa once observed, the world is run by C students. :p

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by manny
Wait. These transcripts were attached to his military records? The ones he has delayed releasing? Weren't those records rumored during the campaign to have something like a dishonorable discharge or something similar? Whatever happened to that? The big secret turns out to be that John Kerry was an activities dweeb and his grades suffered for it when he hit the Ivy League and tried to keep up the pace? Color me unimpressed.

I don't think Kerry's C grades mean anything about his intelligence IN REALITY. But I do think that it would have hurt his PUBLIC IMAGE. You see, he ran as the "sophisticated" guy who sees the "many details" of issues as opposed to the "idiot" Bush. So nothing that his average in college was the same would be embarrasing.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Skeptic
[Bb). Grades on tests in college are by no means a good indicator of how smart or stupid someone is. At most, there is some weak correlation.

[ [/B]

I think Ill file that quote away for the next Affirmative Action thread!;)

[Ed]

Originally posted by Batman Jr.
Uh oh. You're presenting an article which places a more congenial-looking picture of Bush next to a more bizarre one of Kerry to possibly invite unfounded feelings of favoritism for the former. This is an obvious sign of your pronounced irrationality and bias, BPSCG, and perhaps an even greater one than that one which you ascribe to my own false preconceptions, namely how I call far-right wingers "far-right wingers."


Hurrumph

I had these photos before the election but I, as a great American, thought it best to surpress them. Until now.

Dan Rather, eat your biased heart out.:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Incitatus/DragKerryBush.jpg

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Portry? Lackluster student? :i:

[TragicMonkey]

Call me crazy, but how can you compare the academic achievements of two people without knowing what classes each took? A 70 grade in an upper level class is surely more of an achievement that a 90 grade in a lower level one.

The only fair comparison would be to see both transcripts, with not just grades but courses listed.

Unless anyone thinks a 4.0 average from Intro to Ceramics, English 101, Intro to Psychology, and Basic Tennis is worthier than a 3.0 average in Calculus III, Sumero-Babylonian Philology, Philosophy 305: Descartes and Spinoza, and Advanced Database Architecture.

I make no assumptions about either idiot taking challenging classes, mind; I'm just pointing out that a straight GPA to GPA comparison tells little about the scholarly achievement of the individuals involved.

[varwoche]

Originally posted by manny
Wait. These transcripts were attached to his military records? The ones he has delayed releasing? Weren't those records rumored during the campaign to have something like a dishonorable discharge or something similar? Whatever happened to that? The big secret turns out to be that John Kerry was an activities dweeb and his grades suffered for it when he hit the Ivy League and tried to keep up the pace? Color me unimpressed. There's no way I'm re-opening one of those swifty threads, so I'll just post: WHAT MANNY SAID!

[Snide]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Call me crazy, but how can you compare the academic achievements of two people without knowing what classes each took? A 70 grade in an upper level class is surely more of an achievement that a 90 grade in a lower level one.

The only fair comparison would be to see both transcripts, with not just grades but courses listed.

Unless anyone thinks a 4.0 average from Intro to Ceramics, English 101, Intro to Psychology, and Basic Tennis is worthier than a 3.0 average in Calculus III, Sumero-Babylonian Philology, Philosophy 305: Descartes and Spinoza, and Advanced Database Architecture.

I make no assumptions about either idiot taking challenging classes, mind; I'm just pointing out that a straight GPA to GPA comparison tells little about the scholarly achievement of the individuals involved. And don't forget that people with money can have other people write their papers for them.

Not claiming either side did, nor implying either side was likely to have done this. Just saying that since it was possible, and more likely to have some truth than we want to believe, along with everything else that has been posted, Yale grades won't ever convince me that either is more intelligent than the other.

[Skeptic]

And don't forget that people with money can have other people write their papers for them.

If either of them did that, they should ask for a refund.

[Snide]

Originally posted by Cain
Ah, thanks for the link; I was wondering what the hell you were trying to say in the thread title. It turns out you mis-spelled "portray" while bringing up someone's else's grade point average. So ironic, because we all know how much a typo on a message board equates to lack of intelligence (??)

[Snide]

Originally posted by Skeptic
And don't forget that people with money can have other people write their papers for them.

If either of them did that, they should ask for a refund. I'd pay for a C paper if I would have received yet another D due to my drunken parties. :)

[BobK]

Here's how one person sees it.
I want to give you another shot on this, just to be sure you understand. It is crystal clear obvious to me, yet very few people seem to get it...is it how I 'splain it?
The SF 180 is actually a request for "Report of Separation" and all such documents are in the sole custody of the National Personnel Records Center, in St. Louis - not the branch in which the veteran served (in this case the Navy). And the character of Kerry's "separation" (discharge) from the Navy is obviously the document(s) that are hot.
The SF 180 directs the National Personnel Records Center to release records, at the request of the documented veteran, and send them to whomever he designates (usually himself) - period. What is the Navy doing in the middle of this? The Navy must have been the designated recipient, on this specific SF 180 (not the Boston Globe, as Kranish explicitly admits). As a Federal entity, the Navy is then subject to Privacy Laws and any release by them had to be additionally waived by Kerry - or not. He could then easily not waive specific documents for release that he found damaging. What the Boston Globe got was the remainder of whatever the Navy received from NPRC, less what Kerry wished to withhold. It may be that the Globe is unaware of this game; although I wrote about this at length last week to their reporter Joan Vennochi, who had written that Kerry's 180 was in the pipeline, in order to alert the Globe to what was afoot.
He seems to know something about the process, so there is a reasonable chance he's on the mark.

edit. arrrgghh
Wasn't done and I posted it. Finished the post.
Found the quote on http://www.powerlineblog.com/

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by BPSCG
From the Boston Globe.
Link (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student? mode=PF) &nbsp Warning: Link contains terrifying photo of Kerry.

Big deal, at least Kerry is articulate and knows that Canada and Mexico don't share a common border (AND he WASN'T a male cheerleader in college).

[Ed]

Originally posted by Mephisto
Big deal, at least Kerry is articulate and knows that Canada and Mexico don't share a common border (AND he WASN'T a male cheerleader in college).

Well, you can amble north from mexico and won't get questioed till you get to canada and vice versa. That sounds like a common border to me.