"Man With Chain Saw Allowed Into U.S."

[LostAngeles]

So I'm thinking this is another airport snafu, right? Why read it? Well, my need to look at the sadness that is airport security took over and I clicked.

BOSTON - On April 25, Gregory Despres arrived at the U.S.-Canadian border crossing at Calais, Maine, carrying a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with what appeared to be blood. U.S. customs agents confiscated the weapons and fingerprinted Despres. Then they let him into the United States.
...

I chuckled. How silly.

...
The following day, a gruesome scene was discovered in Despres' hometown of Minto, New Brunswick: The decapitated body of a 74-year-old country musician named Frederick Fulton was found on Fulton's kitchen floor. His head was in a pillowcase under a kitchen table. His common-law wife was discovered stabbed to death in a bedroom.
...

Nevermind. I take that chuckle back. I take it back a thousand million billion to the inifinty power times back.

You can read it here. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050607/ap_on_re_us/chain_saw_border)

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
So I'm thinking this is another airport snafu, right? Why read it? Well, my need to look at the sadness that is airport security took over and I clicked.

I chuckled. How silly.

Nevermind. I take that chuckle back. I take it back a thousand million billion to the inifinty power times back.

You can read it here. (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050607/ap_on_re_us/chain_saw_border)

What kind of chainsaw? I hope it wasn't one of those wimpy battery powered ones. Looking at that guys photo, I'm thinking it was a professional model.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
What kind of chainsaw? I hope it wasn't one of those wimpy battery powered ones. Looking at that guys photo, I'm thinking it was a professional model.

Looking at that guy's photo, I'm surprised they let him in the country, regardless of chainsaws. I don't like to judge people by their looks, but if anyone's got "I'm a murderous psychopath" written all over them, it's that guy.

[Mycroft]

I'm too lazy to read the article. Did they let him in with all his weapons? Or did they make him check them at the border?

[Mephisto]

It should be added that, had the man been a Muslim, he probably would have been detained. Funny how they (Border Security) can't determine if a red, congealed liquid all over a blade carried by an obvious weirdo is blood, but they can immediately determine that a Muslim is a terrorist threat.

Goes a long way toward believing Bush's claim that "we're safer than ever before."

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Mephisto
It should be added that, had the man been a Muslim, he probably would have been detained. Funny how they (Border Security) can't determine if a red, congealed liquid all over a blade carried by an obvious weirdo is blood, but they can immediately determine that a Muslim is a terrorist threat.

Goes a long way toward believing Bush's claim that "we're safer than ever before."

Your psychic powers aside, exactly what could the agents do?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Looking at that guy's photo, I'm surprised they let him in the country, regardless of chainsaws. I don't like to judge people by their looks, but if anyone's got "I'm a murderous psychopath" written all over them, it's that guy.

From the article:
Despres hitchhiked to the border crossing.

Now, that's even more amazing! "Oh look honey, there's a man with a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with blood! And he's hitchiking. I think we should give him a ride, eh".

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by WildCat
From the article:


Now, that's even more amazing! "Oh look honey, there's a man with a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw stained with blood! And he's hitchiking. I think we should give him a ride, eh".

Well, I hear Canadians are very nice.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Mephisto
It should be added that, had the man been a Muslim, he probably would have been detained.

How do you know he wasn't a Muslim?

If he was a Muslim, how would the border guard know?

[BPSCG]

Okay, remember this story next time some gun-control guy tries to tell you you shouldn't be allowed to have guns they're too dangerous only the police should have them the police are there to serve and protect call 911 if you see suspicious behavior.

Until someone can persuade me that I can count on my law enforcement officials to protect me from the likes of this gentleman, assume my house is not a gun-free zone.

[Luke T.]

So the guy chopped up a country music singer. What exactly is the problem?

[gnome]

Originally posted by BPSCG
Okay, remember this story next time some gun-control guy tries to tell you you shouldn't be allowed to have guns they're too dangerous only the police should have them the police are there to serve and protect call 911 if you see suspicious behavior.

Until someone can persuade me that I can count on my law enforcement officials to protect me from the likes of this gentleman, assume my house is not a gun-free zone.

I hope not to divert this into a gun thread... let me try it this way: I accept that you feel this way and you have the right to protect your house with a firearm. Do you, however, understand the risk assessment that goes on in some people's heads, that expect that they are more likely to be shot by that gun, by someone they know, than to be intruded upon by random maniacs such as this?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by gnome
Do you, however, understand the risk assessment that goes on in some people's heads, that expect that they are more likely to be shot by that gun, by someone they know, than to be intruded upon by random maniacs such as this?
I think you need to find new friends, or if it's a family member get the hell away from them.

[Manny]

Originally posted by Luke T.
So the guy chopped up a country music singer. What exactly is the problem? Country music singers
Are a real close family...

[gnome]

Originally posted by WildCat
I think you need to find new friends, or if it's a family member get the hell away from them.

Hindsight is 20-20. If it was as simple as that, it would be untrue that most people are killed by someone they know.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by gnome
I hope not to divert this into a gun thread... let me try it this way: I accept that you feel this way and you have the right to protect your house with a firearm. Do you, however, understand the risk assessment that goes on in some people's heads, that expect that they are more likely to be shot by that gun, by someone they know, than to be intruded upon by random maniacs such as this? Absolutely. If someone's calculus is that he's safer without a gun in his house, I'd be the last person to tell him he's wrong.

But until I stop seeing stories like this one, and as long as I am not persuaded that the police can always protect me...

[Ed]

Nothing odd here.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050607/capt.ny11906071829.chain_saw_border_ny119.jpg

[Marquis de Carabas]

If men with chainsaws are outlawed, only outlaws will have men with chainsaws...well, outlaws and ESPN2.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Your psychic powers aside, exactly what could the agents do?

Well, the way I see it, they had two choices. They could A. engage him in witty banter until he exploded under pressure of the country music station the border agents were listening to, or B. they could do tthis:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6225-2005Apr20.html

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Ed
Nothing odd here.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050607/capt.ny11906071829.chain_saw_border_ny119.jpg

A guy that looked like this carrying apparently bloody weapons is certainly no cause for alarm, but had his skin been a little darker, or had he been of undetermined middle-eastern decent, they would have been on him in a second!

[Manny]

Originally posted by Mephisto
B. they could do tthis:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6225-2005Apr20.html They did do that.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Mephisto
A guy that looked like this carrying apparently bloody weapons is certainly no cause for alarm, but had his skin been a little darker, or had he been of undetermined middle-eastern decent, they would have been on him in a second! Something, perhaps somethings are wrong with this picture. I think this photo has been altered in an image editing program. JMO.

[Ipecac]

The border agents CONFISCATED the weapons, fingerprinted him, and let him enter the US. He is a US citizen and had no warrants out for his arrest.

So what were they supposed to do?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Originally posted by Ipecac

So what were they supposed to do?
Give him his complementary "Welcome to America" lollipop.

[AWPrime]

Originally posted by RandFan
Something, perhaps somethings are wrong with this picture. I think this photo has been altered in an image editing program. JMO.

No, he looks like an normal American.:D ;)

[gnome]

Originally posted by BPSCG
Absolutely. If someone's calculus is that he's safer without a gun in his house, I'd be the last person to tell him he's wrong.

But until I stop seeing stories like this one, and as long as I am not persuaded that the police can always protect me...

Thanks... call me odd but I think it helps to affirm sometimes that different sides aren't nuts :)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Your psychic powers aside, exactly what could the agents do?

Originally posted by Ipecac
The border agents CONFISCATED the weapons, fingerprinted him, and let him enter the US. He is a US citizen and had no warrants out for his arrest.

So what were they supposed to do?

Call the police?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Luke T.
So the guy chopped up a country music singer. What exactly is the problem?

:dl:

OK, that wasn't nice.

But...still...

:dl:

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Ed
Nothing odd here.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050607/capt.ny11906071829.chain_saw_border_ny119.jpg

Isn't that shanek?

Oh, I'm so baaaaad.......

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by gnome
Thanks... call me odd but I think it helps to affirm sometimes that different sides aren't nuts :) Okay, you're odd...

[Manny]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Call the police? But that's just it. They called the police. They called the American police, they called the Canadian police. At the time, no one wanted the guy.

Yeah, it seems silly on it's face -- hey, a weird-lookin' guy with a chainsaw and maybe some blood came right across the border with only a two hour delay! But Customs did everything they legally could with the guy.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by manny
But that's just it. They called the police. They called the American police, they called the Canadian police. At the time, no one wanted the guy.

Where do you see that they called the police?

All the article says that the Customs "employed "every conceivable method" to check for warrants or see if Despres had broken any laws in trying to re-enter the country."

[Manny]

They did a warrant check, the high-tech version of "calling the police." If they had physically picked up a phone and called a police department (which one? how many? how far away on each side of the border? You're aware that the town where the crime occurred was 113 miles away, right?) they would have got the same answer they got when they did a warrant check -- "We don't have a reason to hold the guy."

[Ed]

Originally posted by manny
But that's just it. They called the police. They called the American police, they called the Canadian police. At the time, no one wanted the guy.

Yeah, it seems silly on it's face -- hey, a weird-lookin' guy with a chainsaw and maybe some blood came right across the border with only a two hour delay! But Customs did everything they legally could with the guy.

except......wouldn't blood on a chainsaw provide probable cause for holding him for a bit?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Ed
except......wouldn't blood on a chainsaw provide probable cause for holding him for a bit?

That's my point.

Someone showing up with a chainsaw with something that looks like blood, and all they do is check for warrants, confiscate the chainsaw (along with the rest of the collection), and let him go?

Tell me something, do they have IQ tests, when they hire Custom Agents?

Sorry, that was a stupid question. Of course they don't.

[Manny]

Originally posted by Ed
except......wouldn't blood on a chainsaw provide probable cause for holding him for a bit? They held him for two hours. It's not like they waved him right on by -- they did detain him, just as they detained the people going to that suspected terrorist convention Mephisto mentioned. And even then, is it blood, rust, or Bar Oil (http://lawn-and-garden.hardwarestore.com/44-227-bar-oil/bar-and-chain-oil-quart--672984.aspx) (which is red and dries to a maroon)? If it's blood, is it human blood or elk blood (it's not uncommon to use a chainsaw to break up large game in the backwoods)? They're the Customs Department, not CSI.

[BPSCG]

Originally posted by manny
they would have got the same answer they got when they did a warrant check -- "We don't have a reason to hold the guy." Original story says the bodies weren't discovered until after he was in the U.S. It sounds like even if U.S. customs had checked with Canada, even with the town in which the murders happened, they would still have found no reason to hold him.

[Ed]

Originally posted by BPSCG
Original story says the bodies weren't discovered until after he was in the U.S. It sounds like even if U.S. customs had checked with Canada, even with the town in which the murders happened, they would still have found no reason to hold him.

but even so, blood on a chain saw?

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Ed
but even so, blood on a chain saw?

See, this is the sticking the point for me. When I orginally read that first line, I figured, "Ah. Wacky misunderstanding." Then when it turned out that he apparently killed several people in Canada...

You would think that they would have enough cause to hold him until they determined, "Yes, this is blood." or "No, this is something else."

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by manny
They're the Customs Department, not CSI.

Does that mean they aren't required to have common sense?

He shows up with a chain saw covered in something that looks like blood, and they don't investigate?

[IllegalArgument]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Does that mean they aren't required to have common sense?

He shows up with a chain saw covered in something that looks like blood, and they don't investigate?

Manny did mention a few posts up, that it's quite possible to have a blood stained chainsaw in that area for legal reasons.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Ed
except......wouldn't blood on a chainsaw provide probable cause for holding him for a bit?

No, you've got it wrong, probable cause is when they think they smell something in your car that gives them the right to search it.

To put this into a different light, what if instead of weapons, the guy had been carrying a bag full of a leafy, green substance? Would they know immediately that it was marijuana without testing it, or would they simply assume it was and place him under arrest?

Call me politically-incorrect, but if a guy like that shows up at my house carrying weapons and a chain saw covered with a thick red fluid that was congealing on the blade, I'm going to consider him dangerous . . . but then, I'm NOT a border patrol agent.

[Psi Baba]

Originally posted by manny
But that's just it. They called the police. They called the American police, they called the Canadian police. At the time, no one wanted the guy.
What about this little tidbit in the article:
On the same day Despres crossed the border, he was due in a Canadian court to be sentenced on charges he assaulted and threatened to kill Fulton's son-in-law, Frederick Mowat, last August.
Sounds like he was a bit more than "wanted," even if not for the crime he had just committed.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by IllegalArgument
Manny did mention a few posts up, that it's quite possible to have a blood stained chainsaw in that area for legal reasons.

That may be so, but...surely....

Sorry, but I truly believe you are pulling my leg. You have to!

[IllegalArgument]

Originally posted by Psi Baba
What about this little tidbit in the article:

Sounds like he was a bit more than "wanted," even if not for the crime he had just committed.

True, but were the border guards aware of this information?

[Manny]

Originally posted by Psi Baba
What about this little tidbit in the article:On the same day Despres crossed the border, he was due in a Canadian court to be sentenced on charges he assaulted and threatened to kill Fulton's son-in-law, Frederick Mowat, last August.Sounds like he was a bit more than "wanted," even if not for the crime he had just committed. I'd certainly agree that the immigration databases of Canada (and probably the US and Mexico) should be updated to reflect persons who are not wanted on a warrant but who have upcoming sentencing hearings. But they're not currently so updated. I imagine the Canadian system is like that of the US -- if there's no warrant, there's no warrant. Perhaps Canada should have confiscated his travel documents or revoked bail following his conviction -- that's pretty common here in the US where the convicted is a citizen of another country. But Customs can't do anything about that. At the border, the guy's either in the computer or he's not. He wasn't.

Again, who would you have had Customs call? Or would you have them just hold the guy for a couple days in case something pops up in the computer tomorrow that wasn't there today? If so, how long would you have them hold him under such a theory?

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by manny
Sounds like he was a bit more than "wanted," even if not for the crime he had just committed. I'd certainly agree that the immigration databases of Canada (and probably the US and Mexico) should be updated to reflect persons who are not wanted on a warrant but who have upcoming sentencing hearings. But they're not currently so updated. I imagine the Canadian system is like that of the US -- if there's no warrant, there's no warrant. Perhaps Canada should have confiscated his travel documents or revoked bail following his conviction -- that's pretty common here in the US where the convicted is a citizen of another country. But Customs can't do anything about that. At the border, the guy's either in the computer or he's not. He wasn't.

Again, who would you have had Customs call? Or would you have them just hold the guy for a couple days in case something pops up in the computer tomorrow that wasn't there today? If so, how long would you have them hold him under such a theory? [/B]

According to the State department ( http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/regional/regional_1170.html )
you need only some proof that you're an American citizen and a photo I.D. to enter Canada from the U.S.

Also, from http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/temp_1305.html


Many Canadian citizens and many citizens from Visa Waiver Program countries can come to the U.S. without a visa if they meet certain requirements.
...

[Manny]

Originally posted by Mephisto
To put this into a different light, what if instead of weapons, the guy had been carrying a bag full of a leafy, green substance? Would they know immediately that it was marijuana without testing it, or would they simply assume it was and place him under arrest?Lots and lots of people try to smuggle drugs across the border, and I'd expect Customs to have relevant drug-detecting equipment on site. Likewise, a tiny number of people might want to smuggle explosives or radiological material into the country but the danger if they succeed is high, so I'd expect Customs to have some of that equipment lying around. Very few people, at least to my knowledge, try to cross the border after a bloody mass murder and before a shower, so I'd expect that a DNA kit which can distinguish among rust, oil, human blood and non-human blood on a common upland tool would be pretty low on the Customs Department purchasing list.

Call me politically-incorrect, but if a guy like that shows up at my house carrying weapons and a chain saw covered with a thick red fluid that was congealing on the blade, I'm going to consider him dangerous . . . but then, I'm NOT a border patrol agent. I certainly wouldn't let the guy use the bathroom key to any gas station I was running along the Maine border, either! But I'm also not a customs agent. Customs agents have to abide by the law. They were properly suspicious of this guy and they made what appears to be all the legal inquiries available to them to see if they could hang on to the guy.

Again, how long would you hold this guy? A day? A week? If one is going to criticize the government for how they went about holding Jose Padilla (and I do criticize them for that), how can one then turn around and say the government should hold onto this guy?

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by manny
Lots and lots of people try to smuggle drugs across the border, and I'd expect Customs to have relevant drug-detecting equipment on site. Likewise, a tiny number of people might want to smuggle explosives or radiological material into the country but the danger if they succeed is high, so I'd expect Customs to have some of that equipment lying around. Very few people, at least to my knowledge, try to cross the border after a bloody mass murder and before a shower, so I'd expect that a DNA kit which can distinguish among rust, oil, human blood and non-human blood on a common upland tool would be pretty low on the Customs Department purchasing list.

I certainly wouldn't let the guy use the bathroom key to any gas station I was running along the Maine border, either! But I'm also not a customs agent. Customs agents have to abide by the law. They were properly suspicious of this guy and they made what appears to be all the legal inquiries available to them to see if they could hang on to the guy.

Again, how long would you hold this guy? A day? A week? If one is going to criticize the government for how they went about holding Jose Padilla (and I do criticize them for that), how can one then turn around and say the government should hold onto this guy?

Wouldn't a good microscope do the job to determine initially, "Yes. This is blood," though?

[epepke]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Wouldn't a good microscope do the job to determine initially, "Yes. This is blood," though?

Also a cheap solution.

However, as has been pointed out, lots of people go to Canada to hunt large game.

[Bearguin]

Gotta side with Manny on this one. They did all they were allowed to do an then (probably) some more but came up with no reason to detain.

Bear in mind that I can cross the border with a birth certificate and a drivers license. May not even need the birth certificate at a border crossing. Doubt the courts would take those away if I was awaiting trial on charges of issuing a threat.

I agree this is one of the weirdest stories I've heard, but I can't see what could have been done differently.

[Manny]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Wouldn't a good microscope do the job to determine initially, "Yes. This is blood," though? Do you really think it's a smart budget item to equip all our border crossings with microscopes (and training to the agents) just in case another guy crosses the border between his mass murder spree and his shower?

Heck, let's assume that. So now the Customs guy in Calais, Maine has a microscope and has been trained to identify blood. He's such a little Gil Grissom that he can differentiate human blood cells from elk blood cells (in reality, I have no idea whatsoever whether that can be done with a microscope, but let's play this out). And Mr. Canadian Country Music Star Killer guy comes along and lo, he's got human blood on his chainsaw. Tells some lie about where it came from, which the Customs guy doesn't believe.

Again, what next? Well, our Customs agent would certainly check in with the RCMP to see if they were looking for a chainsaw killer. But at the time, the answer is "No, we've got no unsolved chainsaw killings at this time." What about warrants on Mr. CCMSK? "Nope, we've got nothing on him at this time." What is our Customs agent to do now? He's got the same creepy guy, except now he's also got human blood, and he's still got no legal reason to hold him. So you'd have the guy be held anyway for precisely how long?

I realize, as the guy quoted in the story did, how silly this all looks. But seriously, what would you have them do? How long would you have them hold the guy just in case some bodies turn up in Canada?

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by manny
Do you really think it's a smart budget item to equip all our border crossings with microscopes (and training to the agents) just in case another guy crosses the border between his mass murder spree and his shower?

Heck, let's assume that. So now the Customs guy in Calais, Maine has a microscope and has been trained to identify blood. He's such a little Gil Grissom that he can differentiate human blood cells from elk blood cells (in reality, I have no idea whatsoever whether that can be done with a microscope, but let's play this out). And Mr. Canadian Country Music Star Killer guy comes along and lo, he's got human blood on his chainsaw. Tells some lie about where it came from, which the Customs guy doesn't believe.

Again, what next? Well, our Customs agent would certainly check in with the RCMP to see if they were looking for a chainsaw killer. But at the time, the answer is "No, we've got no unsolved chainsaw killings at this time." What about warrants on Mr. CCMSK? "Nope, we've got nothing on him at this time." What is our Customs agent to do now? He's got the same creepy guy, except now he's also got human blood, and he's still got no legal reason to hold him. So you'd have the guy be held anyway for precisely how long?

I realize, as the guy quoted in the story did, how silly this all looks. But seriously, what would you have them do? How long would you have them hold the guy just in case some bodies turn up in Canada?

I'm not going to argue that you're wrong or that this is probably an incredibly rare case that is very unlikely to recur again in the future. Because you're right. They did what they were supposed to and the guy still walked in. It's just that the guy showed up with what appears (definitely now) to be blatantly obvious evidence of a serious crime committed and in the two hours they had him no one took the stuff off to a lab and got any kind of initial result? It causes a "Ok, wait. WHAT?" reaction during all the blither and blather about border security.

I would have thought that a bloody weapon would be enough. If I got pulled over in the states and I had a bloody knife on the seat, I would be held, at least until my public defender got me out. (And if I was in L.A., I'd just remain in the hospital room. *rimshot*)

(And BTW, can it be the hot, tall black guy from CSI instead of Gil? Please?)

[Manny]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
(And BTW, can it be the hot, tall black guy from CSI instead of Gil? Please?) One Warrick Brown, coming up!

http://www.csi-italia.com/info/images/warrick.jpg

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by manny
One Warrick Brown, coming up!

http://www.csi-italia.com/info/images/warrick.jpg

Sweet. I've got $5 American. I'm a-goin' to Canada with a few bags of oregano.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by gnome
Hindsight is 20-20. If it was as simple as that, it would be untrue that most people are killed by someone they know.
Does the rival gangbanger on the next street count as "someone you know" for the purpose of that study? Do suicides count? Do you have a link to that study, and detailed info on how that data was collected?

[davefoc]

manny wrote:I realize, as the guy quoted in the story did, how silly this all looks. But seriously, what would you have them do? How long would you have them hold the guy just in case some bodies turn up in Canada?

Exactly, have any of you thought about how badly the border traffic would be backed up if the border agents stopped and investigated everybody carrying a bloody chainsaw? Sure this one happened to be a brutal murderer but what about the rights of all the other ones that just happen to be carrying a bloody chainsaw for a perfectly innocent reason.

[Nitpick]

Originally posted by manny
If it's blood, is it human blood or elk blood
That's exactly what they should have tried to find out: human (and not his own) or not. It can't be that difficult, even for some local lab, to tell the difference.
Originally posted by manny
(it's not uncommon to use a chainsaw to break up large game in the backwoods)
Ok, but "a homemade sword, a hatchet, a knife, brass knuckles and a chain saw"? Does this sound like the equipment of the average hunter or more like that of the average psychopath?


From the original link:

and he was arrested April 27 after police in Massachusetts saw him wandering down a highway in a sweat shirt with red and brown stains.
"red" = "fresh"? :eek:

EDIT:
Oops, sorry, I hadn't noticed the second page (of the thread)...

[gnome]

Originally posted by WildCat
Does the rival gangbanger on the next street count as "someone you know" for the purpose of that study? Do suicides count? Do you have a link to that study, and detailed info on how that data was collected?

Well, here's a start:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cv03.htm

In 2002...when information on the victim/offender relationship was available, 76% of the offenders were known to the victim, while 24% were a stranger to the victim.

Suicides don't count because these are homicide statistics. As for what standard was used, ask the DOJ. Are you basing your opinion thinking this is not so true as generally thought?

[Checkmite]

Uh, guys...

There was no reason to hold him at the border, because there was no evidence of wrongdoing. Sure, you can do all kinds of checks - but in this country there's something called "due process", and our border-agents-who-don't-take-IQ-tests are bound by it. If you can't get the blood tested until tomorrow, you're not allowed to simply hold the guy until tomorrow. I'm sorry, but that's the way it works.

[Random]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Uh, guys...

There was no reason to hold him at the border, because there was no evidence of wrongdoing. Sure, you can do all kinds of checks - but in this country there's something called "due process", and our border-agents-who-don't-take-IQ-tests are bound by it. If you can't get the blood tested until tomorrow, you're not allowed to simply hold the guy until tomorrow. I'm sorry, but that's the way it works.
This of course brings up the interesting question of whether or not they would have found a way to hold him if he was Arab…

[Manny]

Originally posted by Random
This of course brings up the interesting question of whether or not they would have found a way to hold him if he was Arab… Why is that question interesting? On the first page of this very thread we had a story about some Muslims (mostly Arab) travelling to Canada for purposes the border people thought was suspicious. They were detained for a couple hours and fingerprinted while the agents determined whether they had a reason to hold them. Finding no reason, they were allowed to go. Just like this guy. CAIR, an allegedly moderate Islamic relations support group which in fact is a longtime supporter of terrorism, kicked up a storm about that incident but couldn't be bothered to find any instances of Muslims or Arabs being detained when they were not on their way to a suspected terrorism conference, so it's reasonable to believe in the absence of additional evidence that non-suspicious Muslims and Arabs are allowed to cross the border as easily as a non-suspicious person of other religion or descent.