Penn & Teller take on the Patriot Act

[shecky]

Segment from Bullsh!t (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/pennteller_********_patriot_act_050614-01.ram) in Real Player format.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by shecky
Segment from Bullsh!t (http://movies.crooksandliars.com/pennteller_********_patriot_act_050614-01.ram) in Real Player format. Cool but the link doesn't work for me.

[Donks]

Originally posted by RandFan
Cool but the link doesn't work for me.
Because the filter is substituting bullsh!t for ********. Try this. (http://tinyurl.com/avj26)

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Donks
Because the filter is substituting bullsh!t for ********. Try this. (http://tinyurl.com/avj26) Very good. I have been on both sides of this issue. I think Penn & Teller as usual do a great job of presenting the argument in a rational way.

[shecky]

Sorry for the bad link. *********** filter! :mad: :rolleyes: ;)

[Mycroft]

I dunno. I watched the segment and I don't think they made a very strong case either way. They repeated some common hype without trying to verify or debunk it, then put on a morality show where they were successfully able to get four out of five untrained temp workers to watch a neighbor having sex instead of the terrorists house.

Can any of us honestly say we're more informed for having watched this than not?

[varwoche]

A humerous presentation. One could actually get the impression P&T aren't (political) nutjobs.

I like(?) the "other purposes" part.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Mycroft

Can any of us honestly say we're more informed for having watched this than not?

Yes. I didn't know that "Patriot Act" is actually an incredibly painful acronym.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Mycroft
I dunno. I watched the segment and I don't think they made a very strong case either way. They repeated some common hype without trying to verify or debunk it, then put on a morality show where they were successfully able to get four out of five untrained temp workers to watch a neighbor having sex instead of the terrorists house.

Can any of us honestly say we're more informed for having watched this than not? The segment gave me a different perspective. I don't view P&T as gospel. I liked the segment and I think anyone who is pro-Patriot act as I tend to lean should honestly consider the points raised. But you are right to a degree. I knew the basics behind the arguments. I didn't learn anything earth shattering. I do however question my own willingness to cede power during times of perceived crisis.

[aerocontrols]

I expect better of Penn & Teller than to uncritically pass on (via Amy Goodman) the myth that the Patriot Act has something to do with overseas detentions - "tried on a military barge" etc. She's very specific and she's very wrong about there being any connection between these detentions and the Patriot Act.

[Orwell]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
I expect better of Penn & Teller than to uncritically pass on (via Amy Goodman) the myth that the Patriot Act has something to do with overseas detentions - "tried on a military barge" etc. She's very specific and she's very wrong about there being any connection between these detentions and the Patriot Act.

I'm curious about this. Could you please give some basis to your assertion?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
I expect better of Penn & Teller than to uncritically pass on (via Amy Goodman) the myth that the Patriot Act has something to do with overseas detentions - "tried on a military barge" etc. She's very specific and she's very wrong about there being any connection between these detentions and the Patriot Act.

How so?

[Lisa Simpson]

It wasn't my impression that they took her statements as truth.

She makes the claim. Penn, in the voiceover says, "Holy Jesus Mary the Jew, is that really true?" Then some guy says it's not true. Then Penn questions who to believe. Then the next talking head says the Patriot Act isn't so bad (except he works for FOX News). Then Penn calls him an *******. After that a reasonably sane woman chats for a moment.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Orwell
I'm curious about this. Could you please give some basis to your assertion?

Patriot Act Text (http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html)

It ain't in there.

What is in there is the ability to detain for 7 days without charges, after which there must be judicial review on 6 month intervals. These are not 'military trials', nor must they (or are they) held on military barges, etc.

The Patriot Act does not touch 'military tribunals', period. It effects nothing they do.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
It wasn't my impression that they took her statements as truth.

She makes the claim. Penn, in the voiceover says, "Holy Jesus Mary the Jew, is that really true?" Then some guy says it's not true. Then Penn questions who to believe. Then the next talking head says the Patriot Act isn't so bad (except he works for FOX News). Then Penn calls him an *******. After that a reasonably sane woman chats for a moment.

The bolded portion of your recap (including the 2nd half of Penn's quote) is not in my copy of the video, at least in the section we're talking about.

I want to stress here, I'm not calling you a liar, but I suspect your misremembering the video. Another possible cause is that I'm using RealAlternative rather than Real, because I don't like the way RealPlayer commandeers my computer. My video doesn't seem at all glitchy, but maybe it's just skipping portions of the show. It shows the total length to be 16:47.

[Lisa Simpson]

I watched it off of Showtime on Demand as I typed.

[Orwell]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Patriot Act Text (http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html)

It ain't in there.

What is in there is the ability to detain for 7 days without charges, after which there must be judicial review on 6 month intervals. These are not 'military trials', nor must they (or are they) held on military barges, etc.

The Patriot Act does not touch 'military tribunals', period. It effects nothing they do.

Which section is that? It's a long text.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Patriot Act Text (http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html)

It ain't in there.

What is in there is the ability to detain for 7 days without charges, after which there must be judicial review on 6 month intervals. These are not 'military trials', nor must they (or are they) held on military barges, etc.

The Patriot Act does not touch 'military tribunals', period. It effects nothing they do.
If I recall correctly the tribunals come from an executive order, which states something like that they can try anybody who's not American, if they're Al-Qaida members, are planning or participating in terrorist attacks against US soil or citizens abroad or (rubber alert) if the Presidents deems that they're a threat to national security.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Orwell
Which section is that? It's a long text.

412


Alternatively, you can read the ACLU's 'we hate the Patriot Act (http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/sunsets.html)' website and not find anything about military tribunals.

Their commentary on 412 is as follows:

Sec. 412 Permits the attorney general to unilaterally detain non-citizen terrorist suspects for seven days without charges; requires judicial review at six month intervals for indefinite detention.

They have a lot to say about the Patriot Act, as well. They roughly agree with Penn & Teller's "*********", Orin Kerr, who says that 95% of the Patriot Act is uncontroversial.

Here he is writing about it. (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_02_27-2005_03_05.shtml#1109530615)

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Kerberos
If I recall correctly the tribunals come from an executive order, which states something like that they can try anybody who's not American, if they're Al-Qaida members, are planning or participating in terrorist attacks against US soil or citizens abroad or (rubber alert) if the Presidents deems that they're a threat to national security.

That sounds roughly correct to me. I would hesitate to say (and you haven't but one could infer it from what you've written) that all overseas detentions are based on this order.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
That sounds roughly correct to me. I would hesitate to say (and you haven't but one could infer it from what you've written) that all overseas detentions are based on this order.
I don't think the detentions and the tribunals are based on the same document. The detentions might also be based on an executive order, but I think that would be a different one.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
I watched it off of Showtime on Demand as I typed.

Thanks.

It's nice to know that Penn & Teller did not err as it appeared, (perhaps they, like so many Congressmen, haven't read it. That would explain why they don't know who to believe.) and crooksandliars is apparently well-named.

Did anyone else download a version of BS editted to remove opinions supportive of Patriot Act provisions?

I'm curious - who is the 'some guy' who says it's not true?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Kerberos
I don't think the detentions and the tribunals are based on the same document. The detentions might also be based on an executive order, but I think that would be a different one.

Both detentions and trials are authorized under this order. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html)

[Lisa Simpson]

Orin Kerr is the guy who said it isn't true.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Both detentions and trials are authorized under this order. (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011113-27.html)
Yes, that's the one.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Patriot Act Text (http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html)

It ain't in there.

What is in there is the ability to detain for 7 days without charges, after which there must be judicial review on 6 month intervals. These are not 'military trials', nor must they (or are they) held on military barges, etc.

The Patriot Act does not touch 'military tribunals', period. It effects nothing they do. Thanks Aero.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Did anyone else download a version of BS editted to remove opinions supportive of Patriot Act provisions?

I'm still curious about this. They editted the clip, right?