Misconceptions that believers have about atheists

[Bruce]

Origin: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58540

I'm preparing to give a 20 min speech to a class of students studying to be counselors. I will be discussing the details of what the professor of the class would like me to cover on the phone this evening, but we've been batting some topics back and forth by e-mail. She said my personal perspective and experiences as an atheist are important and gave me some questions to answer. I also gave her an idea for a topic that I would like to discuss, but I haven't heard back whether or not she wishes me to use it. Regardless of whether I use it or not on Monday, I would like to bring it up as a discussion here.

DragonRock related his experience in meeting with a counselor in the hyperlinked thread. The counselor had various religious items in the office which put him on gaurd. For a counselor to effectively do his/her job, the patient must be open and honest, but because of the misunderstandings between believers and atheists, it's easy to see why DragonRock went on the defensive. After all, an atheists does not believe in the very thing that a believer centers his/her life around. There are bound to be misunderstandings.

There are certain misconceptions that believers tend to have about atheists. Though a counselor may not personally hold these feelings, certain questions, statements, or actions made by the counselor may be percieved as prejudiced, rude, or just plain irritating to the patient.

I'll give examples of the misconceptions that I have encountered and the indicating statements, questions, actions, etc. Feel free to add your own perceptions or indicators to the list, or take the discussion where ever you wish. I'm posting this in both Banter and Religion because I know certain members don't visit both.

Misconceptions that many believers have about atheists

1. Atheists are arrogant (because of their atheism)
- "Don't you believe in anything greater than yourself?"
- "Are you too good for God?"
- "Is God beneath you?"

2. Atheists are fools
- "Do you think we all got here by accident?"
- "You may not believe in God, but God believes in you."
- "If you can't explain it, then it MUST be God."
- "Everything happens for a reason."
- "There are no accidents."
- "So, you think we die, and that's it?"
- "I hear that April 1st is National Atheist Day."

3. Atheists hate God
- "What's wrong with God?"
- "Why can't you just believe?"
- "What terrible event caused you to reject God?"

4. Atheists are evil
- "How can you understand right and wrong without God?"
- "You can't have morals without religion."
- "If you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from doing whatever you want?"

5. Atheists are mentally ill and can be 'cured'.
- "Just read the Bible."
- "Try going to church."
- "Pray with me."
- "God loves you, even if you don't believe in him."
- "Like the prodigal son, you will find your way back to HIM."
- "I pity you. You must feel so empty without the light of God in your life."

6. Atheists are not open-minded.
- "You have to look past the end of your nose."
- "God is everywhere, even if you don't see him."

7. Atheists are uncaring and have no feelings (because they lack a soul)

8. If you bombard an Atheist with relentless church invitations, evangelical visits, brochures, pamphlets, free Bibles, and feel-good stories via e-mail, he will give in and convert.

One request. I know this topic is going to arouse a lot of anger from atheists, but please try to be respectful in your replies. Thank you. :)

[Phideaux]

I can't add too much, but as an ex-Mormon atheist I've heard practically all of those things said in one form or another.

My addition to number four about atheists being evil:

Atheists have fallen under the power of Satan. Satan WANTS you not to believe in God.

I get this one all the time. Apparently I was Satan's pet project and now I am his minion. People just can’t “feel the spirit� in my house any more. Groan!

My addition to number 8:

Cookies.

For some astonishing reason, Mormons seem to think by being nice and leaving cookies that will somehow make their church true.

Yep, the kindness and delicious cookies somehow make God's love real and even an atheist will see the error of his ways. ;-)

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Phideaux
For some astonishing reason, Mormons seem to think by being nice and leaving cookies that will somehow make their church true.

Yep, the kindness and delicious cookies somehow make God's love real and even an atheist will see the error of his ways. ;-) Been there done that. I just want people to accept me and continue to be my friend or ignore me altogether. If and when I want to come back to church I will. Cookies aint gonna cut it. Of course what could overcome the fact that much of the Mormon church is demonstrably false.

[Phideaux]

I feel the same way, Randfan. Cookie bribes don't cut it.

By the way, you are the one who introduced me to this forum. You posted briefly at Recovery from Mormonism where I post as Dagny. Thanks.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Phideaux
I feel the same way, Randfan. Cookie bribes don't cut it.

By the way, you are the one who introduced me to this forum. You posted briefly at Recovery from Mormonism where I post as Dagny. Thanks. Cool, welcome. I like the forum. It's a little slow at the moment but it can get quite bumpy. I also hangout at Politics and Current Events.

[clarsct]

WELCOME Phideaux!


Anyway..did someone say cookies? Are they like, really good cookies? Or are they just store bought?

Cause, like, GOOD cookies..well...I dunno...With chocolate chunks instead of chips? Hmmm. Do they come with milk?

I mean..it's not like I THOUGHT about atheism or anything..it was just a cool thing my pot-smokin' buddies got me into. And ..well...COOKIES..man..that's tempting..Especially oatmeal raisin. A good oatmeal raisin cookie could be a religious experience. Think the devil could make cookies? Nyah..too hot..they'd all burn. I mean, it's not every day you run into a woman who can make the perfect oatmeal-raisin cookie. Who cares if she's smart, funny or good-looking? Can she make COOKIES?! That's the real question! My bank, the Grand National bank of Elbonia, has the BEST cookies in the lobby. It's why I bank there, after all. Bought my car from Fast Earnie. He had these Pecan Sandies at his sale that were to DIE for. I didn't even have to LOOK at the cars...I mean..how can you not trust a man with COOKIES? What would the world come to? The seas would be as blood and the sky would turn orange and we'd just have chaos and anarchy.


(BTW, this thread is in two different parts of the forum..may I be so bold as to suggest a merge?)(oh, and be sure to read the sarcasm in the above....)

[Bruce]

Originally posted by clarsct

(BTW, this thread is in two different parts of the forum..may I be so bold as to suggest a merge?)(oh, and be sure to read the sarcasm in the above....)

Probably not. I thought about simply putting an invitation on Banter, but there are some folks that are pretty exclusive about which forums they visit and post in, and I want their opinions too. I'm paying attention to both at least, if that makes you feel better. :D

[TragicMonkey]

A common misconception I get hit with is that I must be really unhappy, since I don't believe the universe is full of magical meaning, etc etc. And it's really, really infuriating to be told that I must be unhappy, and then they use my resulting outburst of monkey rage as evidence "See! You're miserable!" Argh!

Atheism has nothing to do with happiness/unhappiness. There are happy atheists and unhappy ones, just like any other division of people you make.

[Dagny]

I encounter misconceptions about atheism more from agnostics and those folks who say "Well, I'm not religious just spiritual." (# 1, 2 and 6) more than I do from actual believers.

Hello to Phideaux and Randfan from a different Dagny. I’m seeing a theme here.

[Bruce]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
A common misconception I get hit with is that I must be really unhappy

I like to counter that by cracking jokes and showing just how happy I am. I also like to counter the 'you must be cold and empty' attitude by expressing my zest for life and being friendly and personable. Sometimes it really throws them for a loop, but then again, sometimes they are convinced I'm faking it and give me the 'I pity you. You shouldn't pretend to be happy when you know you're not,' attitude. Whattayagonnado? :rolleyes:

[SezMe]

For a couple of years, I was invited to give a 2-hour class at the local Christian college where I discussed my atheism and attempted to contrast that with Christianity. It was a lot of fun - I think you will have a ball, Bruce.

I would underscore this point:

Originally posted by Bruce
- "So, you think we die, and that's it?"
They just could not get their heads around that concept. I suggest you give some thought to how you could emphasize the positive aspect of this concept.

Another thought. My 2 hours flew by; I didn't have time to cover all the material I went in there with. If you have 20 minutes I suggest you plan on only touching on 2 or at most 3 topics. Let the Q&A session take you into other areas.

Here is another area:
9 Atheism is really a religion
- You HAVE to believe in something
- You just won't admit to yourself there is a god

Good luck.

ETA: I haven't been invited back. Maybe I got to too many of the little blighters? :( :(

[Bruce]

This is with a big university and the professor is approaching the class from the angle of 'Secularist Counselors that include spirituality'. They are aware that their patients will not always be Christians. They are inviting speakers of many different religions, including a Rabbi, a Shaman, etc, and of course a Christian. They were having trouble finding an actual atheists, which is understandable. It's not as if we have our own church or anything, and most of us aren't vocal about being atheist anyway.

She says this is a very tolerant group, and pretty quiet. I'm hoping I can get them to talk, ask questions, and get as excited about the discussion as I am. The professor said we can extend the class time if the students want to. I could probably talk all night on this subject. I hope it all goes as well as I anticipate.

[Jekyll]

Originally posted by Phideaux
My addition to number 8:

Cookies.

For some astonishing reason, Mormons seem to think by being nice and leaving cookies that will somehow make their church true.

Yep, the kindness and delicious cookies somehow make God's love real and even an atheist will see the error of his ways. ;-)
Thats it. I'm not letting anymore Xians try and convert me unless they have cookies.

[swstephe]

Originally posted by Phideaux
Cookies.

For some astonishing reason, Mormons seem to think by being nice and leaving cookies that will somehow make their church true.

Yep, the kindness and delicious cookies somehow make God's love real and even an atheist will see the error of his ways. ;-)

i had mormons bring a 30' christmas tree to our house a couple of days before christmas. they blamed me for abusing my children. irony was -- it was my ex-wife's decision, she was too cheap to pay money for one. i agreed because i thought it was a useless pagan practice that was a total waste of a perfectly good pine tree.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

10. Atheists are scientistic. They have no soul, no spirit, no awe of creation.
--- Something about evolution being linked to atheism.

~~ Paul

[c4ts]

Atheists believe in/invented logic, which is some sort of opinion that they hold to prove there is no god.

[Disco]

My latest conversation with a Xian,

Xian: It takes as much faith to say there is no god as it does to say there is God!

Me: But I lack belief in god(s), I don't assert there is no god. Some call it "weak atheism".

Xian: Of course you say there is no God! Look at this dictionary (pulls out linked definition of "atheist" to support his theory)

Me: Yes, but here's another dictionary's definition that includes the word "disbelief". Here's some more info (shows links to positive atheism, etc., showing the etymology of the word)

Xian: Poppycock! You're an agnostic! Here, look at this definition!

Me: No, I'm not agnostic, I'm atheist.

Xian: I don't care what you say or show me, you're an agnostic!

Me: Please stop telling me what I am, it's offensive. I've shown you over & over where you're wrong.

Xian: Oh, seems you're pretty touchy on the subject if I've OFFENDED you!

Me: :confused:

MHB

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Originally posted by swstephe
i had mormons bring a 30' christmas tree to our house a couple of days before christmas. they blamed me for abusing my children.


Wow that is crazy. If not providing your children with a Christmas tree is abuse; then running a Jewish or a Muslim household would also be child abuse. I wonder if they even considered that.

LLH

[Jas]

Originally posted by Bruce
-"Are you too good for God?"

Maybe introduce the concept of the IPU.
"Everything happens for a reason."

That's one of the biggest PO's I have. No, things do not happen for a reason.

"So, you think we die, and that's it?"

Or the various versions of that, some with the intent of "Oh, if only they realized that if you're an atheist you don't go to Heaven and see all your loved ones, then they'll change their mind".

Because of course that thought never ocurred to me :rolleyes:


"What terrible event caused you to reject God?"

"If you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from doing whatever you want?"

Maybe tell them that the really dumb questions are quite insulting.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by Bruce
3. Atheists hate God
- "What terrible event caused you to reject God?"This one's easy.
The tsunami. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50597)

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ooh_child, someone edited your post and added an "X" in front of each occurence of "ian."

~~ Paul

[triadboy]

I get the idea that Xians think atheists are bad/lost Xians who need to be helped back up on the saddle of the Lord.

also

They don't believe in the many Hindu gods - but are stymied that I believe in one less god than them.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by ooh_child
Xian: It takes as much faith to say there is no god as it does to say there is God! I used to believe this. It was James Randi that diabused me of this notion. No, it doesn't take faith to believe that there is no god, santa clause, tooth fairy or invisible pink unicorns.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Bruce
"If you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from doing whatever you want?" When I was a young Catholic lad this was the question that scared me about atheists.

I wanted to discuss the issue with atheists but it seemed like an over the top question to ask straight out. Yah, I probably was a Christian weakling - actually worried about the sensibilities of people who were going to burn in hell forever.

I wanted to ask them a question they could not answer and I wanted it to be positive. Here is what I formulated to attack the godless.

Why is it a good thing to lead a good life?

My problem came with how I would ever answer it myself to an atheist without referencing heaven or hell. I couldn't. I had no reason at all why leading a good life was of any value except that it'll keep you out of hell and get you into heaven. And because I couldn't answer it I believed all the more strongly that atheists too would see no value in it and choose to live in evil and hedonism.

Did you get that? It was because I couldn't find an answer within my experience that I believed there was none and it caused me to mistrust atheists all the more.

Later I heard an aphorism that sounded stupid but I instantly recognized it as an answer to my question. Looking back on it from my vantage here in the over 50 crowd it sounds alot more like truth than it did then: A life well lived is its own reward.

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Atlas

Why is it a good thing to lead a good life?

...........

A life well lived is its own reward.

That's an excellent answer.

I would have answered it this way. What is the very first thing you learn as a child about social behavior? If you be nice to the other kids, they will be nice to you. I believe most of our concepts of good and evil stem from that simple realization. All other concepts of 'living a good life' involve the preservation of personal health, both physical and mental.

I also believe that the need to believe in God and an afterlife stems primarily from the fear of death, and perhaps also from the fear of isolation. In many people, these fears are so overwhelming that the idea that God may not exist is unbearable, as well as the idea that death is truly the end. Many atheists see that as being weak-minded. I don't necessarily think believers are weak minded. I have weaknesses of the mind as well, but in different ways.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Atlas
A life well lived is its own reward. Exactly. We want to be kind and compasionate. Why would we care otherwise. Why bother asking the question at all? Because we do care, at least many if not most of us do. I will say that goodness itself is its own reward.

[merphie]

Originally posted by Atlas
A life well lived is its own reward.

What about, nice guys finish last? :p

Actually, I have better morales and principles then most of the religious people I know.

My cousin, who is very religious, thinks it is ok to sleep with another woman's husband because she is not doing the cheating. He is.

I just like the bible for it's humor. Like I could rape a woman, pay her father 50 silver pieces and marry her. Then when I was tired with her I could declare her evil and demand the father give the token of a Virgin. If he couldn't (Which he probably can't in this day and age) she would be stoned to death in front of him!

It's all in the good book. How's that for morales?

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Atlas
Why is it a good thing to lead a good life? By definition.

This is another thing that freaks me out about Christians of the fundie variety --- they claim (as part of the Proof That I Must Be Evil) that without the imaginary carrot and the imaginary stick, everyone must naturally go around being as evil as possible. The idea that someone might actually love good and hate evil seems foreign to them --- they suppose that humans are naturally psychopaths, who wil naturally do evil unless you give them some strong selfish motivation not to.

This view of humanity is not only wrong, but warped and sinister. It also contradicts Jesus' opinion that loving your neighbour, who you have seen, is necessarily easier than loving God, who you haven't seen, something which I shall point out next time I hear this fatuous bilge.

I think the number 1 misconception people have about atheists, at least that I've encountered, is that if they explain to me the stupid hate-filled misconceptions they have about atheists, I'll be so moved by their hatred, stupidity and lies as to suddenly convert to whatever religion they're peddling.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Bruce
- "I hear that April 1st is National Atheist Day." A little further questioning would reveal whether he's genuinely stupid enough to believe this, or whether he's deliberately telling a lie in the hope of giving offense.

Now I come to think of it, that's always what I want to know when they start lecturing me on atheism.

Curiously, Christmas is of course an Christian adaption of the ancient Roman feast of fools --- Saturnalia.

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
A little further questioning would reveal whether he's genuinely stupid enough to believe this, or whether he's deliberately telling a lie in the hope of giving offense.

Now I come to think of it, that's always what I want to know when they start lecturing me on atheism.

Curiously, Christmas is of course an Christian adaption of the ancient Roman feast of fools --- Saturnalia.

That was actually a bumper sticker I saw on a fundie vehicle. The bumper sticker became popular in this area and the saying began showing up on church signs. It's now part of the rhetoric. Much akin to the pollack jokes we told each other as kids, it's a condescending joke meant to paint atheists as fools. :(

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
By definition.

This is another thing that freaks me out about Christians of the fundie variety --- they claim (as part of the Proof That I Must Be Evil) that without the imaginary carrot and the imaginary stick, everyone must naturally go around being as evil as possible. The idea that someone might actually love good and hate evil seems foreign to them ---


Well, to be fair to those folks. Some of them believe that while non-believers may want to choose good and avoid evil, they cannot do so because they are incapable of distinguishing good from evil because they lack a moral compass (the Bible). In the minds of the believers, "good" is defined only as "what God wants us to do." They believe without an Absolute Moral Authority, atheists are incapable of identifying and choosing good.

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Well, to be fair to those folks. Some of them believe that while non-believers may want to choose good and avoid evil, they cannot do so because they are incapable of distinguishing good from evil because they lack a moral compass (the Bible). In the minds of the believers, "good" is defined only as "what God wants us to do." They believe without an Absolute Moral Authority, atheists are incapable of identifying and choosing good.

Thus the root of the misconception.

[Edwin]

Another one: Atheists have never heard of God. If someone tells us about Jesus, we will no doubt immediately believe and worship him.

I'm not sure how that sits with the idea that we know God exists but reject him.

[Bruce]

I'm going to cut and paste some points that were made by atheists that have posted here and print them as hand-out material for the students. Don't worry, I've cited your name along with your comments. I'm also citing the JREF website and forum. Maybe we can lure in some new recruits. :)

[Bruce]

The professor has reviewed this thread and asked me to add a reply for her. She didn't have time to figure out how to register herself, so I'm cutting and pasting from her e-mail. I'll show her how to register today. Hopefully, she will become a regular visitor. :)


I couldn't figure out how to make a simple response to one of the comments you posted in the link you started in the forum (it wanted to know where in JREF I wanted to post and I could not figure out where to go so you would get this ) so am emailing.
Just wanted to respond to your comment that I 'assumed atheism is a religion and at least a belief system.'
I guess I mispoke because I try to be careful not to refer to atheism as a religion and in fact am only covering it in this course because no one else is covering it (ethics or multicultural courses). So it was important to me that you know that I do not consider it a religion but also wondered if you consider it a belief system?
(a small note for forum -we refer to those who come to us as clients)
please let forum know that we are not attempting to bring "spirituality" into counseling but attempting to learn how to consider it for those who have no clergy (and do have a sense of spirituality) and or those who are suffering from things that spirituality impacts for them; hence, not all and in fact, many clients will not want spirituality to enter the room. but for those who do, how do we do it? for those who have existential issues that attach to their depression, anxiety, grief, etc., AND WANT SPIRITUALITY IN THE ROOM, (hope that isnt offensive--just salient) how do we do it?
so the purpose of teaching students to understand atheism is that they stand a good chance of seeing a significant number of people who are atheists, and to understand what they need and how they need to be viewed and how we keep our "stuff" out of the room in order to help them. is not about projecting or misplacing any spirituality at all--only about understanding them. and to have you come and speak to the students will help them connect with a real person and make the learning and experience so much more rich.
feel free to copy this to the web. maybe you can show me how to respond to an actual post when you come in or in an email. I would be happy to enter the discussion to learn more.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
A little further questioning would reveal whether he's genuinely stupid enough to believe this, or whether he's deliberately telling a lie in the hope of giving offense.

Excellent idea! "If this is how a Christian behaves, giving offense, then I decide I won't be a Christian. Therefore, I'm going to hell. Therefore, so are you, since you drove me from Christ by giving witness as what a Christian is: one who gives offense."

See if that shuts him up!

Curiously, Christmas is of course an Christian adaption of the ancient Roman feast of fools --- Saturnalia.

It all actually ultimately derives from the winter solstice. Shortest day of the year is a good place to decide it's the end of the year. Let's have a party!

[Atlas]

Bruce, this is probably arriving too late to help you make your presentation. But I wanted to share my thoughts anyway. I have no training in psychology. So take this for what it's worth. I'm addressing your professor's thoughts.
So it was important to me that you know that I do not consider it a religion but also wondered if you consider it a belief system?Their are very few atheists that I've talked to that call atheism a belief system, nevertheless there are a few belief patterns. The primary 'belief' has the do with the name... atheist. To a greater or smaller extent 'God', for them, is impossible. Especially the Judeo-Christian-Islamic omni-everything God. Views on this can be hard or soft. Some believe that evidence might sway them, others cannot imagine any possible evidence could exist for the "fairy tale". These people are downright hostile at times when "evidence" is presented. For them alternate explanations abound and are preferred. They remain skeptical when someone brings forth a small, red, riding hood - holds it up and says "See, This proves the Little Red Riding Hood story is true. I found it in the woods on my way to Grandma's house. What more do you want?" Further, they are even more skeptical if the claim involves supernatural magic. "I tell you I saw the riding hood, but when I approached it - glowing beings appeared, grabbed it, and disappeared."

Atheists don't have much appreciation for supernatural magic. They generally have a deep appreciation of science and the laws of physics.

Because they reject common understandings of God, there arises different common understandings or 'beliefs' about their own fate, which they accept as the common fate of all humankind. All face the same fate - there are no high or low options. Coarsely put, we are all worm food.

Existential angst arises from the contemplation of our common dark fate when we get trapped and obsess on that notion. But curiously, if we do not get trapped and obsess, it can provide a reason to live each day to the fullest. Religionists and atheists alike adopt strategies, different though they are, that lead to acceptance of the dark reality of the human condition while liberating the individual from it so that he may proceed to live a rich and fulfilling life. Obviously some are more successful in the implementation of their strategy.

To the atheist mind, we are all in this together and we are all we have, we sink or swim together. It is a humanity oriented perspective. Religionists perceive that the atheist must be egocentric, but that just doesn't seem to be the case.

Atheists value life because it is so finite. They value the contributions and sacrifices that those who have gone before them have made that produced the world they live in. They feel a responsibility to their family and community and hope to make the world better still for those who come after.

Why would they? For the same real reason that the religionist behaves that way. In Christian teaching we must reject the world, we must be in it but not of it. The next life is what we must be about. How does making the world a better place square with the rejection of it demanded by faith? It would be easier to reject it if we lived in squalor than suburbia.

The embraceable science of the atheist helps us conclude that there is likely an evolutionary advantage in the cooperative effort that we naturally employ to make our world more livable. It's part of our nature. We bend the strategy of religion to fit our nature more than it bends us.

... many clients will not want spirituality to enter the room. but for those who do, how do we do it? for those who have existential issues that attach to their depression, anxiety, grief, etc., AND WANT SPIRITUALITY IN THE ROOM, (hope that isnt offensive--just salient) how do we do it? For me, the best strategy would be one that works for everybody. That is, one that is humanity centric, that recognizes that we are all basically the same fragile creature afflicted with many of the same torments regardless of what strategy we've adopted to help us deal with them.

So I think as a counselor you must validate your client's particular anguish. But it's probably not too healthy to let him dwell on his disabling obsession. It has obviously weakened him and continuing talk might reinforce the feelings he is tormented by. After all, he's been successful in rationalizing himself into this condition. He knows the territory. He's come to you to find his way out. If he walks away more discouraged than when he entered he will not continue to seek help with you and maybe not seek it at all.

One way to break the disabling self talk momentarily is to ask if these are new feelings or if they have always been there. Get him talking about the times in his life when he was most happy or most strong and fearless, or the people in his life that he loves. Ask him how he that felt. You cannot talk about a feeling unless you regenerate it to some small extent. The more bright, happy, strong experiences you can elicit the more strength to deal with the darkness you impart.

In the worst case he walks out happy but beset by same dark emotions later and will return for another strength injection. The best case will relax him enough to sleep well and wake with a new appreciation. Sometimes that's all we really need. Just a moment free, from our demons, to collect ourselves.

Languagewise, I think it's best to use the terms of your client. If he's talking about souls and angels, recognize that these are but terms within the strategy he employs. Feel free to engage him where he is at. If you cannot divine the terms of the client's strategy, stick with inoffensive terms. Terms like 'intellectual light', 'light of mind', 'heart' - they all mean the same thing. 'Light' is always good because it has a secondary meaning that is, perhaps, uplifting.

Just one more thing, 'heart' and 'soul' speak to the emotional nature of the client, as 'light of mind' does to the intellectual nature. The reason I say they are the same is that we are integrated beings. Though it is useful at times to address those individual natures, that analytical breakdown must give way to the synthetic recreation of a healthy self. People come to you because they are broke and wish to be put back together like they were before. Give a feeling and a supporting idea to supplant that which troubles the client and you've given him armor against his demons.

[Bruce]

Thank you Atlas. I'm reading your post at 2am because I'm having some trouble sleeping. I plan on writing a review of how the day went when I'm feeling up to it, but in short, it went GREAT.

The professor did not mean to catagorize atheism as a belief system. It all comes down to language issues. The english language is very rooted in theology and lacks words to express atheist views. This was one of the points I discussed with the students.

Atheists use spiritually related expressions all the time. I told them that I say things like, "This person seemed spirited", "You're an angel", "You've got soul", and "Oh my God!". I never mean them in the literal sense, but rather in metaphorical terms. There are no equivalents terms or expressions for atheists.

I told them never to say to an admitted atheist in a counseling session, "I noticed you said oh my God. I thought you were an atheist." I assured them it's a language thing, not a Freudian slip. I also warned them your patient is likely to slam the door and never return. :D ;)

Thank you for the suggestions and viewpoints. I'll have to read them again when I have more energy. Lot's of words and terms there I haven't used in years. Memory's a little foggy. "Existential angst" IIRC, is when you pull a muscle in your back, correct? Never mind, I'll look it up tomorrow. Goodnight. :D :o

[merphie]

Originally posted by Bruce
Atheists use spiritually related expressions all the time. I told them that I say things like, "This person seemed spirited", "You're an angel", "You've got soul", and "Oh my God!". I never mean them in the literal sense, but rather in metaphorical terms. There are no equivalents terms or expressions for atheists.


I've run into what you talked about a lot. I've been tryign to teach myself to use "cat" instead of "god".

[Blue Bubble]

Originally posted by merphie
I've run into what you talked about a lot. I've been tryign to teach myself to use "cat" instead of "god".

I've taken to using a nice spoonerism:

"Oh my Dog!"

They still hear it as "Oh my God", even when written. :p

[lumos]

Originally posted by merphie
I've run into what you talked about a lot. I've been tryign to teach myself to use "cat" instead of "god". I'm a dog person, myself.

[merphie]

Originally posted by lumos
I'm a dog person, myself.

I dont' really care for either. It's just different enough people don't mistake it for "god" and they stop and say "huh?"

It's a good ice breaker. Althought I've had some people say "It's good you don't take the lord's name in vain". To which I reply, "Well, god-damn-it!"

[Atlas]

Originally posted by merphie
I dont' really care for either. It's just different enough people don't mistake it for "god" and they stop and say "huh?"

It's a good ice breaker. Althought I've had some people say "It's good you don't take the lord's name in vain". To which I reply, "Well, god-damn-it!" You really are Cartman, aren't ya.

[merphie]

Originally posted by Atlas
You really are Cartman, aren't ya.

:D

[Bruce]

Here's a clip from an e-mail from the professor. I'm still not in a writing mood tonight, so I'll probably write a commentary tomorrow morning if I have some time.


Hi Bruce,
Thank you for speaking last night. The student counselors enjoyed their conversation with you and all that you had to say. Instead of moving on in our lesson, we dialogued for the remainder of the class period about their reactions to your comments. All were positive. One of the focuses of this class is self-awareness and tuning into any reactions that one may have to someone, whether positive or not. There were a few who admitted to feeling a little nervous about whether you were going to disrespect their religious position but found that you did not and that their own feelings were a signal to them that needed focus; in counselor education we work to keep our own "stuff" from entering the counseling session and stay focused on the client and his/her needs.
I have to apologize to you and to them (which I will do tomorrow night in class). I was a little nervous about bringing someone into the University that I had met through the internet. I felt comfortable with you but if someone offended you and you went off in some direction that I was not prepared for, I would be responsible. So I found myself paraphrasing some of what you said to try and bridge between you and them. I later realized that this was not necessary; you were well connected to them and I did not have to protect you from them or vice versa. Also, my supervisor hat slipped on as I started to try to use moments for training instead of just letting them ask their question. I have trained individual students for 3 years and taught training courses for 2 yrs so sometimes my hats get mixed up. I realized on the drive home that I could trust all of you to communicate without my help--and my need to control the classroom was unnecessary. I am sorry if I came across in any way negative by repeating things you said or they.
All the students agreed that they could have spent more time listening to you and asking more questions. They felt the connection with you most strongly when they were allowed to ask and listen. I look forward to your visit next year.
I will find out from Jeff how he wants the tape. The positive about the tape running out after 1 hr is that I have no trouble approving it for launch on the forum.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Bruce
Here's a clip from an e-mail from the professor. I'm still not in a writing mood tonight, so I'll probably write a commentary tomorrow morning if I have some time. It does sound like everything went perfectly. You gained their trust. And got invited back next year.

And that's when you crush them, right? ;) I've long thought you've got that blend of sweetness and volitility that makes you a dangerous person at large in the world. Same feelings about Brucetta. You're a scary family. Know what I mean? Smile - then smash. I'm glad you're on our side.

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Atlas
It does sound like everything went perfectly. You gained their trust. And got invited back next year.

And that's when you crush them, right? ;) I've long thought you've got that blend of sweetness and volitility that makes you a dangerous person at large in the world. Same feelings about Brucetta. You're a scary family. Know what I mean? Smile - then smash. I'm glad you're on our side.

We have the diabolical evil of Disney.

1. Gain the trust of the children.
2. Buy a television network.
3. Build a cruise line.
4. Buy a few Carribean islands.
5. Take over the world!!

That's not exactly the plan that WE intend to follow, but I will tell you that it involves lots of plush toys.

[pmurray]

Originally posted by Bruce
I guess I mispoke because I try to be careful not to refer to atheism as a religion and in fact am only covering it in this course because no one else is covering it (ethics or multicultural courses). So it was important to me that you know that I do not consider it a religion but also wondered if you consider it a belief system?

Hmm. Any atheist who thinks about these issues (and most do) will have some sort of belief system, if you want to call it that. We might want to call it a "philosophy", or a "metaphysic". And naturally an atheist, being an atheist, will have an atheistic metaphysic - of which there are several.

However, atheism on its own is not a "belief system". It is one component of a belief system. A full belief system has an ontology, an epistemology, a theology, an ethics and meta-ethics and so on. Atheism is one particular theological position, but all the rest are up for grabs. The only thing that atheism specifically excludes is epistemologies, meta-ethics etc that are explicitly theistic, eg: "we know what truth is because God tells us".

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by pmurray
Hmm. Any atheist who thinks about these issues (and most do) will have some sort of belief system, if you want to call it that. We might want to call it a "philosophy", or a "metaphysic". And naturally an atheist, being an atheist, will have an atheistic metaphysic - of which there are several.

However, atheism on its own is not a "belief system". It is one component of a belief system. A full belief system has an ontology, an epistemology, a theology, an ethics and meta-ethics and so on. Atheism is one particular theological position, but all the rest are up for grabs. The only thing that atheism specifically excludes is epistemologies, meta-ethics etc that are explicitly theistic, eg: "we know what truth is because God tells us".

I tend to call atheism a _consequence_ of my belief system. It is obviously not a belief system on its own. For example, is there anything I believe because I am an atheist?

I am an atheist because I don't believe in god/s, as opposed to "I don't believe in god/s because I am an atheist."

[Blue Bubble]

Originally posted by Bruce
Here's a clip from an e-mail from the professor. I'm still not in a writing mood tonight, so I'll probably write a commentary tomorrow morning if I have some time.

Bruce, I hope you still intend to write up a commentary at some point. I, for one, would be most interested in reading it.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Originally posted by Bruce
We have the diabolical evil of Disney.

1. Gain the trust of the children.
2. Buy a television network.
3. Build a cruise line.
4. Buy a few Carribean islands.
5. Take over the world!!


You forgot eating Cuban children. MmmmmHA HA HA!!!

[Bruce]

Originally posted by Blue Bubble
Bruce, I hope you still intend to write up a commentary at some point. I, for one, would be most interested in reading it.

It's coming. I'll probably write it tomorrow afternoon.

Jeff Wagg is on vacation and I don't know when he's coming back, so I don't know when the audio will be available. I was hoping to wait until the audio was available so I know exactly when the 'tape' ran out, but I might as well write the commentary before then.

[Dr Adequate]

BTW: :clap: :clap: :clap: Thanks for making atheism a little less incomprehensible to religious folks.

Bring on the commentary. Also, you used forum members' comments as hand-out material, and it would be interesting to see what you used. Did that go down OK?

Above all, you got asked back next year. So I guess they didn't notice that you're Just Plain Evil.

[Bruce]

It's finished. Enjoy.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59216