marriage license - UPDATE

[kourama]

I got my marriage license the other day. In the form under "Religious Denomination" I put Atheist.

That, I discovered, was a big mistake.

The church would have nothing to do with me, and since my fiancee needs a church wedding, I decided to go back to the city clerk and change my denomination to "Greek Orthodox".

The clerk was annoyed that we had interrupted her nap, and told me I should have known that an Atheist cannot have a church wedding. That is of course, false, but I was in no position to correct her. Anyway, I ate a nice, big s__t sandwich this morning.

I keep telling myself that this doesn't mean anything, and that I can believe whatever I want despite what's been typed on a piece of paper.

But it doesn't feel like that. I scribbled down "Atheist" the other day on that form and it felt GREAT. It felt official. I have to put up with bigots who tell me "Aw, you don't REALLY believe that!", or "Well, science is a religion too!", or "Just wait until you are in a life-and-death situation, and then we'll see who you believe in!", and I'm sick of that c__p.

There it was, in black-and-white. On a record that would last forever. I am an ATHEIST! When future generations would gather statistics on the dark ages of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, I would be counted among the group that had their head on straight.

Oh well.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by kourama
The church would have nothing to do with me, and since my fiancee needs a church wedding, I decided to go back to the city clerk and change my denomination to "Greek Orthodox".
Well, I can't blame the church, because each church has a right to set its own standards regarding who it marries. And I can't blame the state, because it's just collecting demographic information.

Your options (aside from lying to the church) might include: shopping for a more liberal priest who wouldn't insist upon your asserting a specific religious belief, or skipping the church wedding bit.

Maybe your decision to fib was the best one. Maybe it wasn't. Only you have enough info about about the circumstances to make that call.

It's seems a little contradictory to me, your fiancee insisting on the church thing, yet accepting your atheism. You sure she's totally cool with your atheism?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by DrBenway

It's seems a little contradictory to me, your fiancee insisting on the church thing, yet accepting your atheism. You sure she's totally cool with your atheism?
Girls love the big church wedding thing, even if it's the last time they'll ever set foot in one. So much more romantic than City Hall.

[Denise]

Originally posted by WildCat

Girls love the big church wedding thing, even if it's the last time they'll ever set foot in one. So much more romantic than City Hall.

Not true, I got married at city hall. If I ever got married again, it would be in Vegas. Maybe even the drive thru. The wedding is not important- the marriage is.

[jj]

Originally posted by Denise


Not true, I got married at city hall. If I ever got married again, it would be in Vegas. Maybe even the drive thru. The wedding is not important- the marriage is.

We did it in an Irish bar with 100 friends, friend officiating. We didn't think we'd even TRY for a church wedding.

Asking somebody to do a religious service for us would be like asking a conservative Ayatollah to lead point on a women's right to wear bathing suits to integerated higher math classes.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by WildCat

Girls love the big church wedding thing, even if it's the last time they'll ever set foot in one. So much more romantic than City Hall.
Inflicting an awkward situation upon my beloved husband wouldn't strike me as romantic, personally.

You can sometimes rent churches, but have the ceremony itself performed by a justice of the peace, or a very liberal minister who accepts the atheist position.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by WildCat

Girls love the big church wedding thing, even if it's the last time they'll ever set foot in one. So much more romantic than City Hall.

Especially Greek girls... ;)

Kourama... such a lovely religion and you denied it? :)

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Denise
Not true, I got married at city hall. If I ever got married again, it would be in Vegas. Maybe even the drive thru. The wedding is not important- the marriage is.
I didn't mean all girls, just some. I've been to church weddings where the church was picked by the bride just for it's looks (there's lots of beautiful old churches here). Once the priest, during the ceremony, remarked how he often marries couples there only to never see them again, and he hoped that wasn't the case this time. Oh, what an awkward moment that was.
But I'd prefer to get married in Las Vegas by an Elvis impersonator.

[kourama]

It's seems a little contradictory to me, your fiancee insisting on the church thing, yet accepting your atheism. You sure she's totally cool with your atheism?

My fiancee is much more diplomatic than I could ever stomach being. She understands that we must deal with a lot of family members that, thanks to a lifetime of ...let's say brainwashing, consider atheism to be about as wrong as mass-murder. Nope, scratch that, YHWH is a mass-murder....in any case, REALLY BAD. I prefer honesty, since I have a crappy memory, but that's just not an option in this case. The family expects, no, DEMANDS a church wedding. I know what it is like to be ostracised, and I would never want that to happen to her, especially because of me.

She counts herself among the church's "sheep", but she's a part-timer. She treats the religion like a buffet, accepting the parts she likes, and ignoring the parts she doesn't like. If there's a healthy approach to religion, I'd guess that's it.

What bothers her is not that fact that I'm an atheist, just that we differ on something that has so much political baggage attatched to it.

Especially Greek girls...

Kourama... such a lovely religion and you denied it?

Greek woman are indeed the most attractive to me, most especially h glykh mou (my sweet for you non-greeks). :)

Religion, however, is not beautful to me. Christianity is a particularly ugly religion. I am sorry, I really, truly wish that I could believe, but I am intellectually honest, intelligent and rational, and I cannot reconcile these qualities with a belief in dieties. I just can't.

Funny thing: my fiancee, last night referred to her religion as a "lovely religion". I asked her what's so lovely about it. She couldn't answer.

[subgenius]

"And I can't blame the state, because it's just collecting demographic information."
_________________

What justification is there for collecting this type of information? Many states do not, and none should.

[compjan]

Next time fill in Heathen, Pagan, or Satan-Worshiper. When called on it by the family say you're really just an atheist, but the form only had those choices. They'll feel much better. :)



compjan

[Voob]

You could just come to Japan and have the wedding in a fake chapel, performed by a fake priest.
It seems most people prefer a fake foreign priest to a real Japanese one. Actually I don't think most of the couples realize that the guy doing the ceremony is just some white guy the wedding palace picked up by phoning an English school.
It's a side gig for some English teachers. The only requirement--be a non-Japanese--just like in the movies!

(I hear they may be getting a bit more strict with the rules these days, but anyway...)

[subgenius]

I've always advised people to have a big wedding if they wish, just have a fake perform it. Makes it a lot easier than divorce.

[subgenius]

kourama my friend,
does this answer my previous question about whether you had seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"?

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by kourama



Greek woman are indeed the most attractive to me, most especially h glykh mou (my sweet for you non-greeks). :)

Funny thing: my fiancee, last night referred to her religion as a "lovely religion". I asked her what's so lovely about it. She couldn't answer.

On behalf of the women of Greek origin, I thank you, dear Kourama :)

What makes the Greek Ortodox religion lovely? Oh well...

First of all, we are Ortodox we have the Orthi Doxa = the right opinion.

We don't have the personification of Satan, the Pope, dictating our lives.

Our priests wear cool clothes.

and... above all...

It involves a lot of eating!!! :p :D

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by subgenius
What justification is there for collecting this type of information? Many states do not, and none should.
In my state, you don't have to list your religion on your marriage license. You put other personal info there, such as the places your parents were born, where you were born, etc.

Sometimes people use certificates of birth, marriage, and death, in researching their family histories, or in finding lost relations, or other biographical projects.

If an individual wanted to keep secret some bit of info on the form, I reckon you could leave certain boxes blank and you'd still get the marriage license. Or you could lie, as kourama did. I very much doubt that the clerk at city hall ever tried to verify where my dad was born.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by kourama


She counts herself among the church's "sheep", but she's a part-timer. She treats the religion like a buffet, accepting the parts she likes, and ignoring the parts she doesn't like. If there's a healthy approach to religion, I'd guess that's it.

What bothers her is not that fact that I'm an atheist, just that we differ on something that has so much political baggage attatched to it.

[snip]

Religion, however, is not beautful to me. Christianity is a particularly ugly religion. I am sorry, I really, truly wish that I could believe, but I am intellectually honest, intelligent and rational, and I cannot reconcile these qualities with a belief in dieties. I just can't.

Funny thing: my fiancee, last night referred to her religion as a "lovely religion". I asked her what's so lovely about it. She couldn't answer.

K. I hesitated to write anything here and certainly am not expecting a response. However, if y'all have not already done so, please, please talk about how you are going to raise your kids.

In a couple of situations I am aware of, the birth of a child "re-awakened" one spouce's dormant religion. Several old studies that are probably way out of date (cannot cite them -- read them too long ago) indicated that the birth of a child sometimes causes a "part timer" or "lapsed" person to suddenly become much more serious about religious upbringing for the kids. This is a huge source of friction at that point.

I am not looking to cause trouble and am not asking for any details regarding what you both have decided or talked about -- I just wanted to encourage you both to seriously talk about it if you are planning to have kids down the road. For all I know, you've already done that or may not even want children. Just in case, though, I thought I'd say it.

I wish you both great happiness.

NA

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by kourama
I am sorry, I really, truly wish that I could believe, but I am intellectually honest, intelligent and rational, and I cannot reconcile these qualities with a belief in dieties. I just can't.I wonder. Do you think your wife is not intellectually honest, intelligent and rational?

I am in a similar situation with my wife, but I would prefer to say that since we don't really know, she has exactly the same right as I have to say that 'but what if'. Even if I 'know' she's wrong. :confused:

[kourama]

Whew! Sorry guys, I've been busy.

Lesee, where to begin?

I asked the clerk about leaving the field blank, we're not allowed, at the very least I'd have to put "none" which would caue problems.

I wonder. Do you think your wife is not intellectually honest, intelligent and rational?


Not necessarily. I do suspect that might be the case, but it's just as likely that she CAN resolve all those qualities. How it's possible is a mystery.

In a couple of situations I am aware of, the birth of a child "re-awakened" one spouce's dormant religion.

Yep, I started a thread on that touched on that ages ago. We've discussed it, and the plan is to bring the children up in the church. Most kids have a rational awakening at some point, usually in their teens from what I've heard. The deal is, if the kids decide they don't want to go to church, not because they want to watch cartoons instead, or hate wearing their Sunday best, but because they don't really believe the mythology, then they don't have to.

Yes, religious awakening is possible, and we've discussed that too. It's possible, and if it happens then there will be trouble, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

In my state, you don't have to list your religion on your marriage license.

What I most admire about the U.S. is the most wonderful concept of seperation of church and state. We sorta have it in Canada, but not really. Our constitution starts with the line "Whereas we recognize the supremacy of God" or some such garbage. :(


It involves a lot of eating!!!

Well, you don't need religion for that! :D. I do like that sweet stuff they give out. I call it "Church Granola", and when I was a skatoulaki I loved eating these koulourakia they used to give out.

Next time fill in Heathen, Pagan, or Satan-Worshiper. When called on it by the family say you're really just an atheist, but the form only had those choices. They'll feel much better.

I'd love to do that, but when you deal with people who believe in fairies, it's rarely a good idea to joke about fairies around them.

kourama my friend,
does this answer my previous question about whether you had seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"?

Yep, we took our bridal party out to see it. It was fun, since we would laugh at the bad-translation jokes before the subtitles came up. Another funny thing is that the root of my fiancee's name is "Toula" and the root of my name is "Ian". But, I'm only half-non-greek.

-------------------------------
This clash of beliefs is going to be a big ol' pain in the ass. In the past I had a girlfriend who was a devout ...I dunno some flavour of Xtianity with extra nuts..oh yeah, Pentacostal. I converted her to agnosticism.

Converting true believers from one dogma to another is easy. My fiancee is a part-timer, they are tough nuts to crack. They don't take religion seriously enough to encounter the rational difficulties that might lead to a crisis of faith.

In any case, who cares? I love her for who she is, not who I can make her into. She aint no pygmalion (oooh! Look! I used a piece of knowledge from high-school! I guess all those tax-dollars were well-spent :D)

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by kourama
Yep, I started a thread on that touched on that ages ago. We've discussed it, and the plan is to bring the children up in the church. Most kids have a rational awakening at some point, usually in their teens from what I've heard. The deal is, if the kids decide they don't want to go to church, not because they want to watch cartoons instead, or hate wearing their Sunday best, but because they don't really believe the mythology, then they don't have to.

Yes, religious awakening is possible, and we've discussed that too. It's possible, and if it happens then there will be trouble, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.


I am glad that you both have already spoken about it -- it will hopefully help avoid problems later.

Again, many, many congratulations and good luck.

NA

[kourama]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


I am glad that you both have already spoken about it -- it will hopefully help avoid problems later.

Again, many, many congratulations and good luck.

NA

Thanks.

I'm an engineer, so I always do a risk assesment, and if necessary a failure analysis. :D

[Cecil]

Originally posted by kourama
What I most admire about the U.S. is the most wonderful concept of seperation of church and state. We sorta have it in Canada, but not really. Our constitution starts with the line "Whereas we recognize the supremacy of God" or some such garbage. :( Hmm, I disagree. Bush routinely offers prayers during his speeches; Chretien does not. It would be unthinkable for an open atheist in win the Presidency in the US; here, religion is not discussed during the election.

[kourama]

Originally posted by Cecil
Hmm, I disagree. Bush routinely offers prayers during his speeches; Chretien does not. It would be unthinkable for an open atheist in win the Presidency in the US; here, religion is not discussed during the election.

The practice is different from the print, true indeed. But the founding principle is there, which means there's hope.

I remember reading somewhere that a gay candidate would have a better shot at winning the presidency than an atheist.

[SoBitter]

Denise, I could not agree more.

I really don't give a crap about being married in church. I told my boyfriend, I will do it for him and his family, but I'm gonna feel like a big a$$ hyprocrite up there saying that I will honor him in front of God, since I don't believe in God. I have no problem swearing to be faithful, etc., but that is because of my own morals, not cause God says so.

If they ask for religion in Ohio I would leave it blank, if they made me answer I guess I would put together some random letters and say it's my own religion. I don't think you can really argue with that.

I guess I might bring my kids to church, but I'd probably bring them to a bunch of different churches and have them think about which one makes most sense to them. Also I wouldn't start until they were 8 or 9, or when they started asking questions. I think kids should be kids and focus on playing and school, religion shouldn't even be important to them until they get a little older. If they said, hey we don't want to go to church we want to play outside with our friends I'd say OK. One of the things I despise now is how many hours I was forced to listen to monotone priests and dress the way my mom wanted me to while I was there. If I refused to go I was punished. Luckily that didn't stop me from rejecting religion, haha. I don't want my children to resent me for something as trivial as church service.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by kourama


Well, you don't need religion for that! :D. I do like that sweet stuff they give out. I call it "Church Granola", and when I was a skatoulaki I loved eating these koulourakia they used to give out.


But food is a divine thing Kourama!! We worship Food more than anything else!

I observe that you REALLY speak Greek :)

Never forget what father Portokalos said in the movie MBFGW: "There are two kinds of people; Greeks and those who wished to have been born Greeks" :D

[kourama]

SoBitter: We covered religious symbols in our discussions about religion, and I told my fiancee that icons of various saints are OK, but I will not tolerate a statue of a man being torured to death in my house. She agreed.

Unfortunately, when the little ones go to church, they're going to see that obscenity everywhere.

What I remember most about religious services was the mind-bending BOREDOM. For a kid with ADD it was an absolute nightmare.

Cleopatra: I only wish I had been born wealthy. ;)

[Tmy]

I counldnt be my nephews godparent cause the priest asked if I go to church every week (which I dont). I couldve lied and said I would go for now on but I chose not too.

What steams me is that no where does it say you have to go to church on Sunday. It says "keep holy the Sabbath". Lying in the sun and drinking beer sounds like "keeping holy" to me.