Who is We? ...

[ZeeGerman]

Who is we? or "just another one of those threads about the quality of debate"

As others have remarked before me, the tune of this forum seems to have slipped a bit to the hostile side.
I won't appeal to you to change this since I hum the tune myself from time to time.

What I'm wondering about is this. We often read something directed at some poster from the states (say pro war)
"YOU (the US) gave IRAQ WMD in the 80s"
or something like
"YOU (ZeeGerman aka the germans in general) should be grateful that WE (the US) sent OUR (the US's) boys over to liberate Germany from Hitler!" in my direction.

Now, I would thank any US veteran who fought in WWII against Germany right on the spot where I meet him. But am I still a representative of the generation of people who actually lived in that times, i.e. the generation of my parents and grand parents?
And do I as such owe anything to anybody on this forum who is from the US and is (I suppose) not a veteran of WWII, nor has sent his sons over to Europe to fight the Krauts, because he is -like me- between 20 and 50 years old?
Heck, if the Russians hadn't invaded Nazi germany from the east, my mother (then 14 years old) would not have fled westwards
with her younger siblings, had never met my father and I wouldn't even exist.
Do I have to thank Stalin or anybody else from the former USSR for my life?

Does anybody of you US guys still feel responsible or guilty for the genocide of the natives? Why not? Too long ago?
What's the time limit?
To put it a bit provoking:
What makes ME one of THE GERMANS who caused the holocaust?


Zee

[DanishDynamite]

Good question, Zee.

I've wondered something similar for a while.

I'd present my own theory, but I know it would lead to even greater animosity, at least among the xenophobes who are richly represented here.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Good question, Zee.

I've wondered something similar for a while.

I'd present my own theory, but I know it would lead to even greater animosity, at least among the xenophobes who are richly represented here.

Screw them, post it anyway!

Zee

[Mike B.]

Hello Zee,

Good Post.

I think anyone who blames you for whatever happened 50 some years ago is being silly.

As far as Germany goes, I have been there twice and found the people very helpful in me finding historical things about my anscestors.

In fact, I give Germany a lot of credit for the way they have handled what happened. In Japan the textbooks hide what happened in China in the 1930s, much to the chagrin of Koreans and the people of Nanking in China. In Germany it is talked about and confronted. In that sense I suppose Germany is being mature, (more mature than some in this country that continue to have romantic notions about the Confederate States of America, but I don't want to go into this.)

My own grandfather was in Patton's 3rd Army in World War II, but that hardly qualifies me to some sort of gratitude...

As far as some of the lashing out, I can only say this. It is regretable and sad. However, let me explain what I think is happening to some here. On this forum and in European periodicals, I have heard quite a lot of ugly things about America many of them simple reporting of banal sterotypes. My own view is that some of the charges could apply to Europe equally as well. For example, "economic impearilism" is often used against America. Well if it is true than surely the high agricultural subsidies the EU gives to its farmers hurts third world farmers and would certainly qualify as "economic impearilism" but it is never mentioned in these discussions.

I don't mean someone like you or Danish Dynamite. I mean people like AUP or Q-Source that throw out every outrageous charge they can think of. People after a while get sick of it and lash out, sometimes very stupidly I am afraid. I know I have:(

(Now what I really blame you for is when those Ostrogoths sacked Rome in the 5th Century...;) )

[Tony]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman
for my life?

Does anybody of you US guys still feel responsible or guilty for the genocide of the natives? Why not?




To call it an act of genocide is simplistic. There were many different circumstances surrounding the events leading up to the Indian Wars.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Tony


To call it an act of genocide is simplistic. There were many different circumstances surrounding the events leading up to the Indian Wars.

Y

[Tony]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


Y

huh?

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Tony


To call it an act of genocide is simplistic. There were many different circumstances surrounding the events leading up to the Indian Wars.

Sorry about the blotch above...

Tony, you are evading my point. IT IS ABOUT STEREOTYPING INDIVIDUALS for things others have done.

Zee

[edited for typo]

[Tony]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


Sorry about the blotch above...

Tony, you are evading my point. IT IS ABOUT STEREOTYPING INDIVIDUALS for things others have done.

Zee

[edited for typo]


Ohh ok ;) Yeah, stereotyping people is bad.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by Mike B.

As far as some of the lashing out, I can only say this. It is regretable and sad. However, let me explain what I think is happening to some here. On this forum and in European periodicals, I have heard quite a lot of ugly things about America many of them simple reporting of banal sterotypes. My own view is that some of the charges could apply to Europe equally as well. For example, "economic impearilism" is often used against America. Well if it is true than surely the high agricultural subsidies the EU gives to its farmers hurts third world farmers and would certainly qualify as "economic impearilism" but it is never mentioned in these discussions.

I don't mean someone like you or Danish Dynamite. I mean people like AUP or Q-Source that throw out every outrageous charge they can think of. People after a while get sick of it and lash out, sometimes very stupidly I am afraid. I know I have:(

Thanx for the reply Mike. What I still don't get is
: where are the boundaries that separate a valid (in terms of discourse) mapping from one to many or vice versa from an invalid one? Time, distance, personal participation, not having done anything against it or what?


(Now what I really blame you for is when those Ostrogoths sacked Rome in the 5th Century...;) )

Yeah, I really find it hard to get over with, considering what has become of Italy since then. And it's all my fault (sob)...


Zee

[Q-Source]

Originally posted by Mike B.

I don't mean someone like you or Danish Dynamite. I mean people like AUP or Q-Source that throw out every outrageous charge they can think of. People after a while get sick of it and lash out, sometimes very stupidly I am afraid. I know I have:(



Mike BS.

It is hard to keep high quality of debate when there are people like you who think that their political opinions are the correct ones. This makes you believe that anything that someone with a different opinion says should be "outrageous" or stupid or whatever you want to call it.

Well Mikey, let me tell you that your position is only one in an ocean of possibilities about what we think is correct or incorrect. Morality and Politics are subjective issues, I do not have a problem to recognise such fact. But, it seems that you cannot comprehend that whatever "Americans" say and do are not the ultimate truth.

Q

[iain]

Originally posted by Mike B.
I have heard quite a lot of ugly things about America many of them simple reporting of banal sterotypes. My own view is that some of the charges could apply to Europe equally as well. For example, "economic impearilism" is often used against America. Well if it is true than surely the high agricultural subsidies the EU gives to its farmers hurts third world farmers and would certainly qualify as "economic impearilism" but it is never mentioned in these discussions. A very minor point, but I can assure you that the agricultural subsidies in the EU, which are similar to those in the US, are a very big issue and there is constant pressure for reform. Unfortunately, it is one of those situations where everyone agrees something has to be done but no one can agree on what.

[Jon_in_london]

Originally posted by iain
A very minor point, but I can assure you that the agricultural subsidies in the EU, which are similar to those in the US, are a very big issue and there is constant pressure for reform. Unfortunately, it is one of those situations where everyone agrees something has to be done but no one can agree on what.

The French dont want it to change. Its just great for them.

[Flo]

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


The French dont want it to change. Its just great for them.

ALL the French ? like in "ALL the Germans" ?;)

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by iain
A very minor point, but I can assure you that the agricultural subsidies in the EU, which are similar to those in the US, are a very big issue and there is constant pressure for reform. Unfortunately, it is one of those situations where everyone agrees something has to be done but no one can agree on what.

Oh I know Iain there are agriculture subsidies in the US, and I think it is ridiculous. My guess they are in Europe for the same reason they are in the US: there are powerful interest groups that want them.

I often thought that the subsidies are the best argument the third world countries have against the "developed" world. And as far as I know, every 1st world country has them.:(

[NoZed Avenger]

This thread started promisingly, but seems to have ended thus:

Stereotyping people or entire countries is bad. [so far, so good]

And you Americans do it all the time.
And you Americans act like only you are right.
And you Americans need to do better.


Does anyone else find this progression as funny as I do?


NA

[Both funny, "ha ha" and funny sad, all at once. Cf, "irony."]

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
This thread started promisingly, but seems to have ended thus:

Stereotyping people or entire countries is bad. [so far, so good]

And you Americans do it all the time.
And you Americans act like only you are right.
And you Americans need to do better.


Does anyone else find this progression as funny as I do?


NA

[Both funny, "ha ha" and funny sad, all at once. Cf, "irony."]

I agree, the opinions stated here are so far completely off topic except Mike B.'s. Maybe we can get it back on track. Let's consider Germay again.
Suppose you consider me an anti war leftist (which is more true than pro war rightist but far too black and white to describe my point more precisely) just for the sake of simplicity.

I think I don't assume too much when I say that most of you could agree on a statement, that I am one of "the Germans".

Now , am I one of the Germans who
- are responsible for WWI?
- brought Nazis to power (and didn't get rid of them by themselves)?
- are responsible for WWII?
- are responsible for the holocaust?
- have to thank the US soldiers who helped end the war
- have to thank the children and grand children of the above for the same thing?
- exported dual use items to Iraq in the nearer past
- oppose the war in Iraq for dishonest reasons
- oppose the war in Iraq for idealistic but stupid reasons
- are now trying to sneak back in to get at least some business in post war Iraq?

If you say "yes" to any of the above, please say what makes me one.

If you think "Depends..." please say on what.


If you wonder, why the above list is full of negative sentiments: I certainainly claim the credit for all positive sentiments you could have about Germany or the people who live there :D

Zee

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


I think I don't assume too much when I say that most of you could agree on a statement, that I am one of "the Germans".

Now , am I one of the Germans who
- are responsible for WWI?
- brought Nazis to power (and didn't get rid of them by themselves)?
- are responsible for WWII?
- are responsible for the holocaust?

Um. I guess it epends on how old you are. If you were actually drinking buddies with Albert Speer, for example, you might be. Assuming that you actually were not a Nazi during WWII, then no.


- have to thank the US soldiers who helped end the war
- have to thank the children and grand children of the above for the same thing?


I don't think anyone "has to" thank anyone. I don't know that I am in any real sense "obligated" to thank the British/French/Russians/etc. for their war efforts, yet I feel very grateful for their sacrifices, as well as the US soldiers'. It makes me feel more sympathy toward their grandchildren in a diffuse sort of way, but I do not claim that anyone is obligated in the sense I think that you mean. It certainly does not obligate anyone to agree with any other country, ally or not, on any subject under consideration.


- exported dual use items to Iraq in the nearer past


Again, not unless you actually control a company doing this or ar in a government position facilitating this. I am assuming that you are not.


- oppose the war in Iraq for dishonest reasons
- oppose the war in Iraq for idealistic but stupid reasons


I do not assume that anyone opposes the war for dishonest reasons, though the recent stories about Russian arms and trainers has me doubting the official Russian government's position. There are many principled arguments against the war, and until and unless someone spouts off and gives what I believe to be an invalid one, I do not lump the anti-war people together or assume that they all agree on their reasons for opposition.

There are plenty of idiots on both sides of the issue -- and almost any issue, really. As I have posted in the past, I went from a fence sitter to mildly backing the use of force, but keep some reservations about it myself.


- are now trying to sneak back in to get at least some business in post war Iraq?


I think this applies only to the governments of the respective countries, and I personally am not morally outraged by the goverments trying to land business for the businesses in their respective countries. Nor is it realistically any evidence - at least by itself - that the opposition to war was "phony."


If you say "yes" to any of the above, please say what makes me one.

If you think "Depends..." please say on what.

If you wonder, why the above list is full of negative sentiments: I certainainly claim the credit for all positive sentiments you could have about Germany or the people who live there :D



Um. . . . [trying to think of one]


j/k -- I took German as my foreign language in college; have not been there, but love the country (then West Germany - I was not too fond of E. Germany before the wall came down).

What I *really* blame you for is David Hasselhoff staying on the airwaves. (taking Germany by the shoulders and shaking it) What were you THINKING?


NA

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger


What I *really* blame you for is David Hasselhoff staying on the airwaves. (taking Germany by the shoulders and shaking it) What were you THINKING?


NA

Our darkest moment indeed :D

Zee

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


Screw them, post it anyway!

Zee Naaah. I'll keep it for a rainy day when the war discussions have subsided and the forum has regressed to a fairly unexiting level, only interrupted by a few out-of-control gun control threads. :)

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by ZeeGerman


I agree, the opinions stated here are so far completely off topic except Mike B.'s. Maybe we can get it back on track. Let's consider Germay again.
Suppose you consider me an anti war leftist (which is more true than pro war rightist but far too black and white to describe my point more precisely) just for the sake of simplicity.

I think I don't assume too much when I say that most of you could agree on a statement, that I am one of "the Germans".

Now , am I one of the Germans who
- are responsible for WWI?
- brought Nazis to power (and didn't get rid of them by themselves)?
- are responsible for WWII?
- are responsible for the holocaust?
- have to thank the US soldiers who helped end the war
- have to thank the children and grand children of the above for the same thing?
- exported dual use items to Iraq in the nearer past
- oppose the war in Iraq for dishonest reasons
- oppose the war in Iraq for idealistic but stupid reasons
- are now trying to sneak back in to get at least some business in post war Iraq?

If you say "yes" to any of the above, please say what makes me one.

If you think "Depends..." please say on what.


If you wonder, why the above list is full of negative sentiments: I certainainly claim the credit for all positive sentiments you could have about Germany or the people who live there :D

Zee

Hello Zee again,

No, I blame Gavrillo Princip for shooting the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary for starting World War I. ;)

Anyway,
I think blaming individuals for a country's crimes is an easy cheapshot. It is a way of being dismissive. (i.e. "Well what could you know your country did X." ) That way you don't actually have to deal with the scope of the person's arguments.

As far as responsibilty you could turn it on me...

I mean am I responsible for slavery in America?
for Mexican War?
for My Lai Massacre in Vietnam?

All of these things occurred before I was born...yet even now, am I responsible for what happens with George W? I didn't vote for him, but...?

Anyway,
as you say if you are blamed for the negative, you can take credit for the positive. So Zee I thank you for Goethe, Kant, the printing press, Albert Schweizer, Fritz Lang, old age pensions (I think Otto von Bismark invented them), and last but not least the group Alphaville.
;)

[headscratcher4]

The thread reminds my of the great quote from the old Pogo Cartoon (for those of you who don't know it, it was the "Doonsbury" of its day, with furry creatures in a Florida swamp making wry political comentary on the events of the day):

" We have seen the enemy, and it is us"...

[WooBot]

" We have seen the enemy, and it is us"...

"They are us," surely? To be a play off Commodore Perry's famous quote.

[Supercharts]

Zee,
Your generation should forget about Hitler and concentrate on being good citizens. Hitler and his generation is dead or dying. It's in the past and you were not the least bit responsible for it. Germany for Germans [plus the Turks to work the crappy jobs]
There are individuals that will want Germany to hate itself for WWII. They hate the US also. When you have a modern and productive society based on laws with fine educational institutions there will always be those who will pick away at your pride and accomplishments because they themselves are losers.

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by WooBot


"They are us," surely? To be a play off Commodore Perry's famous quote.

Indeed, I stand corrected...and, considering it is a joke using word play, I blew the punch line...:o

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Supercharts
Zee,
Your generation should forget about Hitler and concentrate on being good citizens. Hitler and his generation is dead or dying. It's in the past and you were not the least bit responsible for it. Germany for Germans [plus the Turks to work the crappy jobs]
There are individuals that will want Germany to hate itself for WWII. They hate the US also. When you have a modern and productive society based on laws with fine educational institutions there will always be those who will pick away at your pride and accomplishments because they themselves are losers. :eek: :eek:

Are you feeling OK, Supercharts? I mean, you almost sound like an understanding, enlightened human being here. :)

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
:eek: :eek:

Are you feeling OK, Supercharts? I mean, you almost sound like an understanding, enlightened human being here. :)

New meds. :D