Those wackey Mexicans.....

[Ed]

This has got to be the funniest/stupidest thing that a government has done recently.

Herewith, I give you the latest stamps of Mexico.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/06/29/PH2005062903089.jpg

The story is currently exploding but I thought that I would save you all the time to find the offensive objects.

This may just trump "Darkie Toothpaste"

(how's that Darat? No insults though I suspect some members will be moving to Mexico to use them:D )

Edit to add :jaw:

Lest you think that this is a joke/urban legend, the story in the Washington Post is here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/29/AR2005062902831.html

[zenith-nadir]

Hmmmmmm...I don't remember Hispanics having such pronounced lips...

;)

[Giz]

As long as Vicente Fox doesn't post an apology to Jesse Jackson using one of those stamps...

[Donks]

Hmmm, yeah Memín Pinguín was not the most PC comic book drawing ever. But if they are doing stamps of the history of Mexican comic book characters what should they do, hide all that are unpleasant by modern standards? That's what many other places do, like the US for instance. Some of the early Looney Tunes featured some depictions that were quite similar to that one. Link. (http://www.rotten.com/library/culture/banned-cartoons/)

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Giz
As long as Vicente Fox doesn't post an apology to Jesse Jackson using one of those stamps... You mean the same Jesse Jackson who refers to Jews as "Hymies" and New York City as "Hymietown"? ;)

[MRC_Hans]

As I understand it, they are depictions of a known (in Mexico) cartoon character. So, I think that is OK, provided the original goal of that cartoon was not to make fun at blacks as such. It is was, it should not be commemorated, of course.

How about all the venerable cartoons that show gross carricatures of caucasians? Are they also discrimination? .. I thought not.

Hans

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
As I understand it, they are depictions of a known (in Mexico) cartoon character. So, I think that is OK, provided the original goal of that cartoon was not to make fun at blacks as such. It is was, it should not be commemorated, of course.

How about all the venerable cartoons that show gross carricatures of caucasians? Are they also discrimination? .. I thought not.

Hans

Well said Hans, I couldn't agree more.

How many of the people condemning these stamps have bothered to research the character or the issue?

Memin Pinguin was a popular cartoon character created by Mexican authoress Yolanda Vargas Dulche in the 1940's. At that time there was a widespread belief in Mexico that darker skinned people were less moral than lighter skinned ones, and that negros were definitely immoral. Vargas attempted to attack that perception head on - often by caricature. Vargas was white and blond, she had a stage act with a dark skinned (but not black) woman called "Rubio and Moreno" - literally "blondie and darkie" in which she made fun of the sterotypes and challenged the popular perceptions.

Later, after spending time in Cuba, she made many friends amongst poor black people and was particularly captivated by a small black boy who she felt was a model of good character to people everywhere. She decided to use him as a model for the Pinguin character - whilst simultaneously incorporating some of the more extreme black caricature that was prevalent at that time, in order to highlight the extremes. The character Memin Pinguin was noble, kind, generous, cheerful and above all absolutely honest and moral. It was a direct confrontation to the popular sterotypes of blacks as being less honest and moral than whites.

At the same time, she wanted to tackle illiteracy in Mexico. The character became so popular that it encouraged literacy - for many exteremely poor and illiterate people, Memin Pinguin was their first introduction to reading - and what did they learn? That black people were noble, honest etc.!

For anyone to imply that this is racism is crass idiocy. Jesse Jackson should be ashamed of himself. You don't have to look far to see where the real racism lies.

By the way, as far as I know, Memin Pinguin is required primary school reading in the Phillipines! Guess all those Phillipinos must be racists... :rolleyes:

[David Carroll]

Whether the strip is racist or not, surely you can understand why someone might see it and assume the worst. It would have been nice if Fox and friends had made some effort to explain that as you did instead of just saying, basically, "Ah, you don't know what you are talking about so just jack it up your *hee-haw*!" Not that I don't understand why they would have been bugged about the matter.

[Skeptic]

I don't think this was INTENDED as a racist insult--the figure, I understand, being a well-known cartoon character in Mexico, hardly intended to represent blacks as such. But I can sure see why people would be pissed off at it! The issuing of these stamps sure has "STUPIDITY" written all over it.

[Manny]

Originally posted by David Carroll
Whether the strip is racist or not, surely you can understand why someone might see it and assume the worst. Originally posted by Skeptic
But I can sure see why people would be pissed off at it! The issuing of these stamps sure has "STUPIDITY" written all over it.

I would certainly agree if the stamp was issued in the United States. I don't know enough about Mexico to say. I see from Pragmatist that there have been controversies about skin darkness in Mexico, but does their history at all parallel ours? Is there a tradition of derogatory characters which look like Pinguin, or did the author take American and/or Cuban sambo-like drawings and turn them around, so that the only association Mexicans might have with this sort of characiture would be a postive one? I'd like to learn more.

[ManfredVonRichthoffen]

I don't know, some of my favorite cartoon characters have been ethnic charicatures.

Pepe Le Pew.
Speedy Ganzalez
Hadji the Hedgehog.

Well, maybe I made the last one up, but he'd be pretty funny. All like:

"I declare fatwa on the Zionist Lioness!"

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Pragmatist
Well said Hans, I couldn't agree more.

How many of the people condemning these stamps have bothered to research the character or the issue?

Memin Pinguin was a popular cartoon character created by Mexican authoress Yolanda Vargas Dulche in the 1940's. At that time there was a widespread belief in Mexico that darker skinned people were less moral than lighter skinned ones, and that negros were definitely immoral. Vargas attempted to attack that perception head on - often by caricature. Vargas was white and blond, she had a stage act with a dark skinned (but not black) woman called "Rubio and Moreno" - literally "blondie and darkie" in which she made fun of the sterotypes and challenged the popular perceptions.

Later, after spending time in Cuba, she made many friends amongst poor black people and was particularly captivated by a small black boy who she felt was a model of good character to people everywhere. She decided to use him as a model for the Pinguin character - whilst simultaneously incorporating some of the more extreme black caricature that was prevalent at that time, in order to highlight the extremes. The character Memin Pinguin was noble, kind, generous, cheerful and above all absolutely honest and moral. It was a direct confrontation to the popular sterotypes of blacks as being less honest and moral than whites.

At the same time, she wanted to tackle illiteracy in Mexico. The character became so popular that it encouraged literacy - for many exteremely poor and illiterate people, Memin Pinguin was their first introduction to reading - and what did they learn? That black people were noble, honest etc.!

For anyone to imply that this is racism is crass idiocy. Jesse Jackson should be ashamed of himself. You don't have to look far to see where the real racism lies.

By the way, as far as I know, Memin Pinguin is required primary school reading in the Phillipines! Guess all those Phillipinos must be racists... :rolleyes:

Now that is really interesting. I wish I had read this before I had posted earlier about Mexico being stupid for issuing racist stamps.

No wonder Fox is telling us to go screw. I still think it's a racist carictuare, but I see why it is now.

Oh and Manfred, watch Looney Toons now and count how many Speedy Gonzalez cartoons you see now. Let me know if you get a positive integer.

[Ladewig]

The stamps, which sell for about 60 US cents each, are selling on eBay for prices over $60 for a set of five and $120 for a sheet of 50.

[Silicon]

Wow, it costs six and a half bucks to send a letter in Mexico?!!





;)

[Manny]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Oh and Manfred, watch Looney Toons now and count how many Speedy Gonzalez cartoons you see now. Let me know if you get a positive integer. Which totally sucks, because I loved Speedy. See, I had no idea at the time that there was a stereotype of lazy Mexicans or anything like that. I just liked the no-crap-taking smartass Mouse. Which is why I want to learn more here.

Imagine if we issued a Bugs Bunny stamp and some country called up and said, "A RABBIT?!? In my country rabbits are the outdated racist symbol of an ethnic minority! We demand you withdraw that stamp at once!" We wouldn't know what the heck they were talking about, right? And our initial reaction would probably be to say that they didn't know what they were talking about.

And Pepe LePew sucks. He was what was on between the good cartoons.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Now that is really interesting. I wish I had read this before I had posted earlier about Mexico being stupid for issuing racist stamps.

No wonder Fox is telling us to go screw. I still think it's a racist carictuare, but I see why it is now.

Oh and Manfred, watch Looney Toons now and count how many Speedy Gonzalez cartoons you see now. Let me know if you get a positive integer.

Speedy is nowhere near as bad as a 1940's "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs" cartoon.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by manny
Which totally sucks, because I loved Speedy. See, I had no idea at the time that there was a stereotype of lazy Mexicans or anything like that. I just liked the no-crap-taking smartass Mouse. Which is why I want to learn more here.

Imagine if we issued a Bugs Bunny stamp and some country called up and said, "A RABBIT?!? In my country rabbits are the outdated racist symbol of an ethnic minority! We demand you withdraw that stamp at once!" We wouldn't know what the heck they were talking about, right? And our initial reaction would probably be to say that they didn't know what they were talking about.

And Pepe LePew sucks. He was what was on between the good cartoons.

See, same here (on all counts).

Bugs Bunny is pretty much a cousin to Brer Rabbit. They're both pretty much another incarnation of the Trickster archetype. Which to be honest, so was Speedy and Jerry and Tweety and the Roadrunner. Heck, even in cartoons featuring Peg-Leg Pete (who I believe is just Pete now), Mickey Mouse would fill that role.

I never saw Speedy as racist, but as a fast mouse version of Bugs Bunny.

And if you don't know who Brer Rabbit is and you've been to any Disney park with a Splash Mountain or read Misery, slap yourself.

[Manny]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
And if you don't know who Brer Rabbit is and you've been to any Disney park with a Splash Mountain or read Misery, slap yourself. Heh. I saw Song of the South. I guess this is more an age thing than a US v. non-US culture thing, but I thought Uncle Remus was a god. I don't remember much of the film and I'll accept the collective judgment that its stereotypes make it unsuitable for current release, but to my young (5 or 6 year-old, I think) eyes I just remember that I wish I had a Uncle Remus who was wise but who could talk to a little kid.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by manny
Heh. I saw Song of the South. I guess this is more an age thing than a US v. non-US culture thing, but I thought Uncle Remus was a god. I don't remember much of the film and I'll accept the collective judgment that its stereotypes make it unsuitable for current release, but to my young (5 or 6 year-old, I think) eyes I just remember that I wish I had a Uncle Remus who was wise but who could talk to a little kid.

I've never seen it, but I knew of it. (Mom had a big book on the art of Disney that was to my childhood as the Bible is to Christianity.) But yes, Disney won't release it in the States due to the perception that Uncle Remus is "happy to serve the white man and slavery was a good thing." Still it's rather weird that one of their most popular rides is based off this film.

It was kind of nice to know the whole deal with the ride when I finally got to ride about five years ago, though.

[Donks]

Originally posted by manny
I would certainly agree if the stamp was issued in the United States. I don't know enough about Mexico to say. I see from Pragmatist that there have been controversies about skin darkness in Mexico, but does their history at all parallel ours?
I've been trying to write a reply to this post for like 30 minutes, but it always end up long winded, vague and discombobulated. I end up trying to summarize 500 years of history in 20 lines, and it will probably read like crap. If you could list questions you want to know (what specific parts of the history you want to know about), I'll answer them as succinctly as possible.
Is there a tradition of derogatory characters which look like Pinguin, or did the author take American and/or Cuban sambo-like drawings and turn them around, so that the only association Mexicans might have with this sort of characiture would be a postive one? I'd like to learn more.
I don't really know. I've never been a huge fan of comics, so I never reaearched much into their history.

[Manny]

Originally posted by Donks
I've been trying to write a reply to this post for like 30 minutes, but it always end up long winded, vague and discombobulated. I end up trying to summarize 500 years of history in 20 lines, and it will probably read like crap. If you could list questions you want to know (what specific parts of the history you want to know about), I'll answer them as succinctly as possible. Thank you -- that's very kind. Lemme think up a list tonight and I'll ask 'em tomorrow?

[Ed]

The issue, IMO, is not whether these cartoons are racist (they are not) nor whether they represent some cultural history of Mexico (they appear to). The issue is wheter or not issuing stamps that certain hyper sensitive (to a chance of network facetime) individuals in the US is really a sign of good judgement given Fox's recent foot in mouth episode and at the time where some are getting pretty pissed off at the border situation and Mexico's position on returning felons to the US.

Perception is everything.

[Donks]

Originally posted by manny
Thank you -- that's very kind. Lemme think up a list tonight and I'll ask 'em tomorrow?
Sure.
Originally posted by Ed
The issue, IMO, is not whether these cartoons are racist (they are not) nor whether they represent some cultural history of Mexico (they appear to). The issue is wheter or not issuing stamps that certain hyper sensitive (to a chance of network facetime) individuals in the US is really a sign of good judgement given Fox's recent foot in mouth episode and at the time where some are getting pretty pissed off at the border situation and Mexico's position on returning felons to the US.

Perception is everything.
Our beloved president is a jackass. He has absolutely no diplomatic skills. As with any government project, the stamps were probably planned about 57 years ago and, yes they timing is horrible. I bet not a single one of the people involved even thought about it. Now that there is criticism from the US, I can just see the 2 or 3 lit. (or whatever) professors that were consulted when picking the stamps. Bow to the wishes of the gringos? Fat chance. The academics in the big public universities in Mexico make your most liberal academics look like right wing neocons.

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by David Carroll
Whether the strip is racist or not, surely you can understand why someone might see it and assume the worst. It would have been nice if Fox and friends had made some effort to explain that as you did instead of just saying, basically, "Ah, you don't know what you are talking about so just jack it up your *hee-haw*!" Not that I don't understand why they would have been bugged about the matter.

You simply have to remember that Mexico is a different culture from America. And it's a matter of degree. To Mexicans, the idea that Memin Pinguin could be "racist" is so ridiculous that it isn't even worthy of comment. To put it in perspective - imagine if the US produced a stamp with Porky Pig on it, and there were immediately complaints from Muslims offended because an "unclean creature" was depicted on the postage! Even more so if they then insisted that the choice of a pig was stupid and implied that it was a racist slur against Islam. I'm quite sure you wouldn't see GWB patiently explaining that Porky Pig is a much loved children's icon! I'd be quite willing to bet the response would simply be, "don't be so ridiculous"!

Can you blame the Mexicans for doing the same?

I agree totally with Donks. Fox is an idiot, but this time round he did the right thing IMO.

[Pragmatist]

Originally posted by manny
I would certainly agree if the stamp was issued in the United States. I don't know enough about Mexico to say. I see from Pragmatist that there have been controversies about skin darkness in Mexico, but does their history at all parallel ours? Is there a tradition of derogatory characters which look like Pinguin, or did the author take American and/or Cuban sambo-like drawings and turn them around, so that the only association Mexicans might have with this sort of characiture would be a postive one? I'd like to learn more.

As far as I know there has never been any significant caricature of black people in Mexico, and the images which Vargas was reacting against were those of US origin.

Mexican culture and history is horribly complex, it's extremely difficult to describe the cultural attitudes because they are so complex and based on so many factors that are probably quite alien to people in the US. The discrimination I mentioned earlier is certainly nowhere near as clear cut as "white v black" as you find in the US. In Mexico colour can almost be "assigned" - a light skinned person can be "dark", and vice-versa. It would make little sense to anyone unfamiliar with day to day Mexican attitudes and culture.

But I certainly believe that most Mexicans would view this kind of caricature positively and not in a disparaging way.

[Regnad Kcin]

IIRC, there was not ever so much a controversy over the Speedy character, but rather the supporting players (both mice and men), who were for the most part of the slow-witted, lazy Mexican stereotype. Speedy was the hero.

And as far as Pepe le Pew goes, his adventures centered around his attempts to seduce a beautiful skunk who was in actuality... a cat. All along, Warner Bros. was poisoning our little minds with depraved images of inter-species hanky-panky!