Bio Diesel - Is it real?

[merphie]

I recently read an article about home made bio diesel made from vegetable oil.

Is this something people are actually doing? Are they mixing it with petrol or using it straight?

[IIRichard]

Yep, it's real. It's used in a 20% mix or so with petroleum diesil and is made from used cooking oil or directly from soybeans. One brand is "BioWillie" 'cause Willie Nelson promotes it and owns a bit of the company. Archer Daniel Midland is building a plant to make it which will double production in the US.

[merphie]

I was reading more on the home made version. I don't have a diesel vehicle anyway.

From reading about it, it's almost enough to make me want to trade in my gas pickup for a diesel one.

[TjW]

Originally posted by merphie
I recently read an article about home made bio diesel made from vegetable oil.

Is this something people are actually doing? Are they mixing it with petrol or using it straight?

Oh, yes, it's real and possible. Some people have been home-processing used french fry oil they get for free from restaurants.
You can process it and run it straight, or you can mix it with petro-diesel, or you can start on petro-diesel and run on vegetable oil.
Of course, french fry consumption would have to go way up for everybody to do this, and then the cars would probably be too small.

The interesting question is whether or not it's scalable and sustainable. That is, whether under U.S. farm conditions you actually get more energy out than you put in in the form of fertilizer (made primarily from natural gas) and diesel fuel to plant, tend, harvest, process and distribute the fuel.
I have my doubts, because (as I understand it) there are subsidies involved.
Brazil took a pretty good run at going bankrupt trying to switch over to alcohol, but bio-diesel may work better.

[Ririon]

It works great. You have to filter it, of course, and some additives are used by some systems to get it to work properly.

On a warm day, you could just run a completely stock diesel engine on it. On a cold day, you either add some stuff, or heat it up before it goes into the engine.

There are kits you can buy for all kinds of solutions like this, based on used cooking oil. As I understand it, the performance is the same as with regular diesel, but the exhaust is much cleaner, and it is of course sustainable.

You have to like the low grade of engineering involved in growing soy, canola or something and just filling the oil more or less straight into the tanks of the cars.

Compare to the "hydrogen economy" usage of the same area: Big costly solar arrays, conversion into potentially explosive gas (with associated handling costs) and use in extremely high-tech cars as yet on the prototype stage.

What is the energy yield per unit area? Is it comparable? Handwaving and napkin estimates welcome. Rules: The energy should be calculated with all the losses until the wheels of my car hits the road.

What is the minimum cost of producing a liter (or gallon for the metrically challenged) of vegetable oil without subsidies?

Why are hydrogen cars and not biodiesel hybrids the cars of the future? Fuel cells are cool, but I would feel much safer with a tank full of canola oil under my butt in case of a crash or malfunction.

Ririon

[_Q_]

Although this has already been mentioned in the thread, I'll repeat that biodiesel is not the same thing as vegetable oil. It is commonly made from vegetable oil, but there's some chemistry involved. Plenty of information on the web for those interested in details.

Confusion can easily arise because one can find individuals who are doing any of the following:

1. Running a vehicle on biodiesel.

2. Running a vehicle on a blend of biodiesel and petro diesel (B5 for 5% biodiesel, B10, B20, etc.)

3. Running a vehicle on vegetable oil (either new oil or waste oil.) As noted in another post, this is often a 2-tank system with a small tank of petro diesel for starting the engine, then a main tank of oil for operation once things have warmed up. Heating of the oil to reduce viscosity is pretty common.

4. Running a vehicle on a mix of vegetable oil and petro diesel.

5. Running a vehicle on a mix of vegetable oil and biodiesel.

6. Running a vehicle on a mix of vegetable oil and unleaded gas.

[wahrheit]

There's quite a number of freaks over here in Germany fueling their 20 year old Diesel cars with salad oil, vegetable oil or cold-pressed rape oil. Rape oil is 57 cents over here, whereas Diesel at the filling station costs 1,08 Euros. It's a question of taxes, the engines don't care. I'm not an expert myself, but I know that an old Mercedes Diesel doesn'care the least if it is run with rape oil or fancy Diesel from the filling station.

The only problem is that your car smells like a chip shop ;)

[_Q_]

Originally posted by wahrheit
There's quite a number of freaks over here in Germany fueling their 20 year old Diesel cars with salad oil, vegetable oil or cold-pressed rape oil. Rape oil is 57 cents over here, whereas Diesel at the filling station costs 1,08 Euros. It's a question of taxes, the engines don't care. I'm not an expert myself, but I know that an old Mercedes Diesel doesn'care the least if it is run with rape oil or fancy Diesel from the filling station.
I'm curious - in Germany is one legally obligated to pay additional taxes if the vegetable oil is being used as an automotive fuel? An acquaintance from the U.K. told me that he used to run vegetable oil quite often, but that he would in fact be breaking the law if he didn't pay "road tax" on it.

[wahrheit]

Originally posted by _Q_
I'm curious - in Germany is one legally obligated to pay additional taxes if the vegetable oil is being used as an automotive fuel? An acquaintance from the U.K. told me that he used to run vegetable oil quite often, but that he would in fact be breaking the law if he didn't pay "road tax" on it.
Sure it's illegal to run your car on tax-free oil. Long before the kids started using vegetable oil almost every farmer used heating oil (light fuel oil, for the house) for their cars, because heating oil was way less taxed than gas for cars.

Heating oil would be illegal, rape oil is expressly legal to use, no petroleum tax, no eco tax.

Btw, Rudolph Diesel himself ran his first diesel engine on peanut oil :)

[neutrino_cannon]

Originally posted by Ririon
It works great. You have to filter it, of course, and some additives are used by some systems to get it to work properly.

On a warm day, you could just run a completely stock diesel engine on it. On a cold day, you either add some stuff, or heat it up before it goes into the engine.


In Crested Butte they found out that that stuff has different properties in the cold the hard way. I think they've got it worked out now, though.

IIRC, Neil Young's tour busses run on the stuff too.

[Dr Adequate]

Lorries powered by chicken fat (http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,821349,00.html)

Starting in January, Asda trucks of up to 40 tonnes will carry startling slogans saying "This vehicle is powered by chicken fat" - the biggest boost yet for the legal use of recycled cooking oil on Britain's roads.

Lorries making deliveries on Tyneside and in Yorkshire will be the first to try the fuel, which is currently available on three forecourts in Yorkshire. A further eight garages in the region are to take supplies from the growing number of biodiesel refiners, who were given a 20p-a-litre green tax concession by the chancellor, Gordon Brown, in July.

...

The planned Asda fleet fuel, like all commercial biodiesel, is completely legal but will still undercut conventional diesel prices by at least 10p a litre. Converting an in-house product like the waste oil will add to savings for the firm.

"Oil's a finite resource and we are fully aware of the fact that we shouldn't be wasting it," Ms Fellows said. "This is real eco-innovation - trials already show that chip pan fuel emissions are up to 40% lower than diesel."

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by wahrheit
It's a question of taxes, the engines don't care. I'm not an expert myself, but I know that an old Mercedes Diesel doesn'care the least if it is run with rape oil or fancy Diesel from the filling station.

The only problem is that your car smells like a chip shop ;) Well, that and there's the the PR problem.
"So, what kind of car do you drive?"
"Oh, I've got one of those rape cars."

[Doghouse Reilly]

Rape seed oil is the same thing as Canola oil.
I guess they thought it sounded better. It does too.

Canola Car sounds a lot better than Rape Car.

[Art Vandelay]

Not quite. Canola is a cultivar of rapeseed. Not all rapeseed is Canola.

[CaveDave]

Originally posted by merphie
I recently read an article about home made bio diesel made from vegetable oil.

Is this something people are actually doing? Are they mixing it with petrol or using it straight?
A young man I know is starting up his own backyard plant to produce the stuff. I'm not sure of the details, but he said something about treating with alkali, cooking, and centrifuging. He said there was some component that had to be removed to make it work in normal engines. I'll have to ask for more details next time I see him.

Dave

[MRC_Hans]

Basically, a diesel engine can run on anything that is liquid and flamable, but for even reasonable effectifity it has to be adjusted to the particular fuel. Also, there is the problem of residues. Unconditioned vegetable oils contain a number of impurities that can soot up your engine really quick.

Here, we have had city buses running on vegetable oil, but I don't know the present state of things. The environmental issue is quite complex, since as already mentioned, the process of producing vegetable oil is far from clean.

I suppose that some of the problems could be overcome by dedicated development work. For instance, a plant that produced large amounts of suitable oils might be made by selective breeding or genetic engineering, and fertilizing schemes using various wastes might be invented. After all, when a crop is not for human consumption, some of the usual issues might be bypassed.

Hans

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Basically, a diesel engine can run on anything that is liquid and flamable, but for even reasonable effectifity it has to be adjusted to the particular fuel. Also, there is the problem of residues. Unconditioned vegetable oils contain a number of impurities that can soot up your engine really quick. So what happens when one tries to run a diesel engine on gasoline? And did you mean "effectivity"?

[Dr. DRE]

This is a really good description of the vegatable oil -> biodiesel conversion process.

[Dr. DRE]

And now for the linkDIY biodiesel (http://www.woodgas.com/Unlinked/biodiesel.htm)

[wahrheit]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
So what happens when one tries to run a diesel engine on gasoline? And did you mean "effectivity"?
The engine will still run for some time, though the power will be reduced, heavy knocking, lot's of smoke, and then you are on your way to an expensive engine failure. The diesel engine needs the lubricant that is in the diesel oil.

Running a diesel on gasoline is deadly (for the engine). The other way round, diesel in a gasonline car, will not cause that much harm to the engine. Though the catalytic converter will not like it ;)

[CaveDave]

Originally posted by CaveDave
A young man I know is starting up his own backyard plant to produce the stuff. I'm not sure of the details, but he said something about treating with alkali, cooking, and centrifuging. He said there was some component that had to be removed to make it work in normal engines. I'll have to ask for more details next time I see him.
From Dr.DRE's link to: http://www.woodgas.com/Unlinked/biodiesel.htm

How it works

The reaction (transesterification) substitutes methanol (wood alcohol, dri-gas, ....) for the Glycerine in triglycerides (fats, oils) to make the methyl esters called biodiesel. It uses lye as a catalyst. A junior chemist might write it like this:

Triglyceride (fats or oils) + Methanol ===> Biodiesel + Glycerine (Lye catalyst)

The lye converts a small amount of the oil to soap. After the reaction is over, the Glycerine and soap settle to the bottom of the vessel and the biodiesel floats on top.
Looks like the kid was giving true info. Actually, I wondered if he knew what he was talking about. :D

Dave

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by TjW That is, whether under U.S. farm conditions you actually get more energy out than you put in in the form of fertilizer (made primarily from natural gas) and diesel fuel to plant, tend, harvest, process and distribute the fuel.

Do you have any citations for this kind of analysis?

Soybeans don't require as much nitrogen fertilizer; they host rhizobia.

And, in any case, there shouldn't be much nitrogen loss in oil - it should be recoverable as protein.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by wahrheit
Running a diesel on gasoline is deadly (for the engine). The other way round, diesel in a gasonline car, will not cause that much harm to the engine. Though the catalytic converter will not like it ;)

I can tell you from personal experience that accidentally putting diesel in the gas tank of a 1973 VW Bug will cause it to stay very still unless pushed to the garage section of the filling station. No permanent damage done, though; drain and purge.

Well, Ruffice, the mechanic, did try to damage my ego when I explained the situation.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by dakotajudo
Do you have any citations for this kind of analysis?

Soybeans don't require as much nitrogen fertilizer; they host rhizobia.

And, in any case, there shouldn't be much nitrogen loss in oil - it should be recoverable as protein.

Not answering for Tjw, I have no citations handy, but I do know that the cheap price of rapeseed oil is partially due to certain subsidies. Namely, that the 'waste product' (term loosely used) from manufacturing the oil is sold as fodder for the cattle industry. That demand is limited. Increasing the production of rapeseed oil to meet the demands of transportation does not equate to an increased demand for the fodder left over, so the balance of the subsidy falls and the cost of the processed oil increases in two ways; you can't sell the fodder and you now have to dispose of it somehow.

Look at biodiesel as a form of Solar energy and storage, because that's exactly what it is. Nothing more and nothing less. Calculate the overall efficiency of that energy collection/processing and I think you'll find that it ain't that great a deal large-scale.

This doesn't even address the amount of acreage necessary to produce enough to suit all of our transportation needs. I would think several large states, at least.

[TjW]

Originally posted by dakotajudo
Do you have any citations for this kind of analysis?

Soybeans don't require as much nitrogen fertilizer; they host rhizobia.

And, in any case, there shouldn't be much nitrogen loss in oil - it should be recoverable as protein.

Nope Don't have any data either way for soybeans. That's why I said it remains to be seen.
If it's profitable, you just buy the oil, turn it into diesel, and sell it.
Energy companies are in business to make a profit. They don't make their money digging up petroleum, they make money selling product.
Why aren't the big, greedy oil companies selling biodiesel already?
I suspect, but can't prove, the reason is it's not profitable.

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Not answering for Tjw, I have no citations handy, but I do know that the cheap price of rapeseed oil is partially due to certain subsidies. Namely, that the 'waste product' (term loosely used) from manufacturing the oil is sold as fodder for the cattle industry. That demand is limited. Increasing the production of rapeseed oil to meet the demands of transportation does not equate to an increased demand for the fodder left over, so the balance of the subsidy falls and the cost of the processed oil increases in two ways; you can't sell the fodder and you now have to dispose of it somehow.

Look at biodiesel as a form of Solar energy and storage, because that's exactly what it is. Nothing more and nothing less. Calculate the overall efficiency of that energy collection/processing and I think you'll find that it ain't that great a deal large-scale.

I was just running through numbers in my head, just some arbitrary values based on what I remember from growing up on a farm (so I can't say how accurate they are).

Assume 17% oil (I think 18-19 is more common, but this makes the math easier), and 42 bu/acre (again, a simplifying assumption) - so about 7 bu/acre in oil. A bushel, volume wise, is about 9 gallons (rounding down) - so by quick figuring, 63 gallons of oil per acre.

How much of that can be converted to soy diesel, I don't know.

I seem to remember that a 50 gallon tank will last for one pass of over a fifty acre field; so let's assume 5 gallons per acre diesel required to grow beans.

Still should be excess; but, again, this is just off the top of my head.

And that's discounting the nitrogen component. Soybean meal is used for cattle feed, but also hogs, chickens, and has a market for human foods. So the subsidy drop-off for soybeans may be higher than for canola.

Even if the left-over can't be sold as fodder, it should be cheaper to re-use as fertilizer, than to synthesis new fertilizer (from natural gas???).

Plus, as I said, soybeans don't cost as much for nitrogen, relatively - I don't think the fuel cost of making fertilizer is a factor.

But I would like to see some hard numbers, I don't plan on doing all the library work to find what I'm missing.


This doesn't even address the amount of acreage necessary to produce enough to suit all of our transportation needs. I would think several large states, at least.
That's a separate issue - I'm only concerned if soy diesel is in itself profitable, not whether it can be used as the single energy source for transportation.

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by TjW If it's profitable, you just buy the oil, turn it into diesel, and sell it.
I don't think it could be profitable if you buy the oil at grocery market prices - but if you buy beans and process directly?

Why aren't the big, greedy oil companies selling biodiesel already?
I suspect, but can't prove, the reason is it's not profitable.

I'd suspect, first, that they don't have the infrastructure in place to make if profitable in the short term. Getting beans from point to point, processing machinery, I'd suspect, is quite different than processing crude oil.

[Earthborn]

Originally posted by dakotajudo
But I would like to see some hard numbers, I don't plan on doing all the library work to find what I'm missing.You can find some on the Biodiesel page of Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel). I think the biodiesel economy might really blast off once someone has figured out a way to use those algae: 10 000 to 20 000 cubic meters of oil per square kilometer instead of just 40 to 50 for soybeans.

:jaw:I'm only concerned if soy diesel is in itself profitable, not whether it can be used as the single energy source for transportation.Apperently there are already companies making a profit with it, so the answer is yes. It can be profitable, even though soybeans are probably the lousiest source of fuel oil that is used.

[wahrheit]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
I can tell you from personal experience that accidentally putting diesel in the gas tank of a 1973 VW Bug will cause it to stay very still unless pushed to the garage section of the filling station. No permanent damage done, though; drain and purge.
Well, at least I was right on the damage part. Interestingly, I read of a guy doing the same like you with a VW minibus, roughly the same year, you know the kind of VW bus the Libyans drive in Back To The Future. That one still drove, with heavy sputter of course.
Originally posted by Rob Lister

Well, Ruffice, the mechanic, did try to damage my ego when I explained the situation.

Haha, like a friend of mine was trying to appear smart while talking to a mechanic, why the car wouldn't start anymore, my friend said it might be the carburetor. The car had fuel injection :)

[kleinjahr]

As an alternative,
http://www.gengas.nu/byggbes/index.shtml
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/docrep/t0512e/T0512e00.htm

This one has a decent explanation of biodiesel.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

What we really need is an engine that will burn anything we throw in it. Diesels, with some adjustments, do rather well at it ( include natural gas/propane). Though I shudder to think what Bunker C ( #6 fuel oil) would do to one.