Private toll roads gathering speed

[Tony]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3260459 ...full article

The next road you travel — and pay a toll to use — could be privately owned.

Looking for ways to finance highway projects without hitting the public treasury, Congress appears set to pass a proposal to encourage private ownership of new toll roads.

The provision, part of the highway spending bill now being hammered out by a Senate and House conference committee, would allow private companies to raise up to $15 billion for highway projects with bonds that are exempt from federal income taxes.

While the proposal has broad support in Washington and the business community, the idea of private highways has incited grass-roots opposition in some states, with some saying the government — not a profit-seeking company — is the proper owner of the public's roads.

Not sure what to think of this.

[crimresearch]

And if these new owners decide that they don't want certain people to use their roads, will the market forces correct that?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by crimresearch
And if these new owners decide that they don't want certain people to use their roads, will the market forces correct that?

Certain people. Like the cops. :D

Guess they'll have to have private cops. And if I don't pay the speeding ticket, does that show up on my credit report?

Market forces. What are we going to have, six alternate roads running parallel to each other?

JERRY: What's this?

KRAMER: Well, you know, those annoying little bumps on the lane-lines? (makes noise - bum, bum, bum, bum, bump)

JERRY: Isn't that some kind of safety thing?

KRAMER: Well, I had to pull 'em up if I'm gonna widen the lanes.

JERRY: What the hell are you talking about?

KRAMER: Ah, you know how in planes they got first class? More leg room, better ride? Well, I'm bringing that concept to mile one-fourteen.

[varwoche]

Take a right turn on the New Diet Coke Tollway and you're almost there. Libertopia that is.

[Darat]

What caught me was not the fact of private roads - I mean why not - but the fact that the private roads would be subsidised by the government or in other words all tax payers.

To then call them "private" is well... misleading.

[CBL4]

We could also go back to the idea of public toll roads. There was a toll road in Northern Virginia which was very effective and popular. It cost 85 cents to drive about 20 miles. Once it started to get popular, the tolls were used to widen the road. This made it so it was the only major road in the DC area which was not always packed during rush hour.

CBL

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Darat
What caught me was not the fact of private roads - I mean why not - but the fact that the private roads would be subsidised by the government or in other words all tax payers.

To then call them "private" is well... misleading.

Never mind that you cannot build much of a road without condemning a fair amount of privately-owned land, and you can't seize private land by eminent domain for the benefit of another private entity...

...er...

Never mind.

I guess that's okay as long as the "right" private entity gets it, huh?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by CBL4
We could also go back to the idea of public toll roads. There was a toll road in Northern Virginia which was very effective and popular. It cost 85 cents to drive about 20 miles. Once it started to get popular, the tolls were used to widen the road. This made it so it was the only major road in the DC area which was not always packed during rush hour.

CBL

If it's a case of getting value for your money, count your blessings. IL's toll roads are some of the most congested, poorly maintained highways in the state. But they're the only direct route to most heavily-traveled destnations, so it's not value you get for your money.... it's insult on top of injury.

Plus, you now have to pay DOUBLE tolls unless you use a state-supplied transponder which beams your identity at every toll plaza. There has been a great deal of talk about using these signals to issue speeding tickets if the time between scans doesn't jibe with the distance. They already have your name, address and credit card on file, of course.

Some system, huh?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Jocko
Never mind that you cannot build much of a road without condemning a fair amount of privately-owned land, and you can't seize private land by eminent domain for the benefit of another private entity...

...er...

Never mind.

I guess that's okay as long as the "right" private entity gets it, huh?

Yowch. Didn't even think of that...I have a bad feeling Libertopia is going to come by trampling over a lot of people's rights.

[CBL4]

If it's a case of getting value for your money, count your blessings.Tolls need to be a true user fee. The money collected need to used for maintaining the roads they are collected on only. If they are used for other roads or the general fund, they stink.

The Dulles Toll road had transponders which were great because they sped up the toll plazas. They did not charge extra nor did they use them for speeding tickets. They were simply to speed up traffic and reduce expenditures. Almost all commuters used them and most other people did not.

CBL

[shanek]

Why not do like they did when roads were private? The first transcontinental highway was paid for with funds from the car and tire manufacturers, who have the most to profit from a good road system. By the same token, get some of the gas/oil companies to contribute. You could also get UPS, FedEx, and other shipping companies to pitch in. The transcontinental highway was also paid for partially with private buy-ins of $5.

There are options other than tolls.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Darat
What caught me was not the fact of private roads - I mean why not - but the fact that the private roads would be subsidised by the government or in other words all tax payers.

To then call them "private" is well... misleading.

I can see your point, but from what I read they're tax-exempt, not subsidized. So you're "paying" for it the same way you're paying for the JREF (even if you're a noncontributor).

(Well, not you, you're in the UK, but you get what I'm saying.)

[shanek]

Originally posted by Jocko
Never mind that you cannot build much of a road without condemning a fair amount of privately-owned land,

They didn't need to condemn land to build the first (private) transcontinental highway.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Certain people. Like the cops. :D

Guess they'll have to have private cops. And if I don't pay the speeding ticket, does that show up on my credit report?

Market forces. What are we going to have, six alternate roads running parallel to each other?
Well they'd be competing with the free governement roads leading that leads to the same destination (some must exist), so it's not as if they have umlimited abbility to charge anything they like.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by shanek
They didn't need to condemn land to build the first (private) transcontinental highway.
Good thing the world hasn't changed one bit the last 100 (or whatever) years. ETA: And that all roads are like the transcontinental highway.

[shanek]

Originally posted by Kerberos
Good thing the world hasn't changed one bit the last 100 (or whatever) years. ETA: And that all roads are like the transcontinental highway.

Ah. So the government can justify siezing anything through eminent domain as long as it's declared eminent domain for that purpose long enough. Riiight... :rolleyes:

20 years from now it'll be, "See? We need government and eminent domain to build Wal-Marts! There'd be no Wal-Marts without government!"

Me: "But, 30 years ago, Wal-Mart didn't need eminent domain to build."

K+20: Good thing the world hasn't changed one bit the last 30 years. ETA: And that all Wal-Marts are like the first ones."

So much for skepticism...

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by shanek
They didn't need to condemn land to build the first (private) transcontinental highway.
If you're talking about the Lincoln Highway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Highway), it didn't need to condemn any property because it simply designated pre-existing roads to be part of the new "highway." It wasn't a "private" highway.

One reason the LHA concentrated on publicity was that it could not afford to build the highway. In short, Henry Ford had been right. Fisher's idea that the auto industry and private contributions could pay for the highway was abandoned early. For the most part, the LHA used contributions for publicity and promotion to encourage travel over the Lincoln Highway, as well as to encourage State, county, and municipal officials to improve the road. The LHA did, however, help finance construction of short sections of the route. For example, the LHA arranged contributions from the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company to build the "cut-off" that was intended to relieve Mr. Thomas and his horses of their role of helping stranded motorists near Fish Springs. (Goodyear President Frank A. Seiberling was President of the LHA for many years.) Source (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/lincoln.htm)

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
If you're talking about the Lincoln Highway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Highway), it didn't need to condemn any property because it simply designated pre-existing roads to be part of the new "highway." It wasn't a "private" highway.

Source (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/lincoln.htm)
You mean Shanek has been twisting facts to make them fit his political agenda? :eek: :eek: :eek:

[crimresearch]

Maybe it is reality which has been twisting the facts to keep them from fitting a certain political agenda?

;)

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by shanek
Ah. So the government can justify siezing anything through eminent domain as long as it's declared eminent domain for that purpose long enough. Riiight... :rolleyes:

20 years from now it'll be, "See? We need government and eminent domain to build Wal-Marts! There'd be no Wal-Marts without government!"

Me: "But, 30 years ago, Wal-Mart didn't need eminent domain to build."

K+20: Good thing the world hasn't changed one bit the last 30 years. ETA: And that all Wal-Marts are like the first ones."

So much for skepticism...
Congratulations on missing the point entirely, that one road could be built almost a hundred years ago without using eminent domain doesn't prove that it's realistic to do it always, because it was a different time and other roads are built under different circumstances like fx (partially?) not on top of existing roads or government lands.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by crimresearch
Maybe it is reality which has been twisting the facts to keep them from fitting a certain political agenda?

;)
Libertarianism is absolute, reality is frequently inaccurate.� :D

[Jocko]

Originally posted by shanek
They didn't need to condemn land to build the first (private) transcontinental highway.

How many stars were on the American flag when that route was half-built (other half being redesignated)?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Tony
Not sure what to think of this.
For starters, no act of Congress is needed: (http://www.nwitimes.com/articles/2004/10/16/news/top_news/c924dbc41542802886256f2f00116036.txt)
Chicago reached a $1.8 billion deal to lease the rights to operate its toll road to a private consortium, a move expected to reduce city maintenance costs and raise money for future users.

The tolls are already being increased. :(

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Jocko
If it's a case of getting value for your money, count your blessings. IL's toll roads are some of the most congested, poorly maintained highways in the state. But they're the only direct route to most heavily-traveled destnations, so it's not value you get for your money.... it's insult on top of injury.

Plus, you now have to pay DOUBLE tolls unless you use a state-supplied transponder which beams your identity at every toll plaza. There has been a great deal of talk about using these signals to issue speeding tickets if the time between scans doesn't jibe with the distance. They already have your name, address and credit card on file, of course.

Some system, huh?
Don't worry, Jocko. They'll raise the I-Pass tolls soon enough also, just as soon as everybody starts using them. For someone like me, who rarely uses the tollway, it's not worth it to spend $50 on a transponder, plus the balance they require you to pay in advance. Northern IL tollroads are popular downstate, of course. Dowstaters say "why should we pay for your roads?" to which I say fine, let's make all your roads toll roads as well you SOB's. :mad: Oh, and the toll plazas are about every 5 miles here, which does a fantastic job of turning them into something better resembling a parking lot instead of a road.

They promise that they won't ever use I-Pass transponders to issue tickets. If you believe that, I'll sell you the stretch of I-294 between the Deerfierld toll plaza and and Half Day Road, real cheap!

[shanek]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
If you're talking about the Lincoln Highway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Highway),

I'm not, but nice diversion from the subject...and I see the other bigots have fallen right in line with you, as usual.

yet another thread destroyed before it had time to flourish...

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

My mistake. What road are you referring to then?

[shanek]

Oh, and by the way, if you people weren't busy being such bigots, you'd see that the Lincoln Highway proves my point as well. According to MKJ's link, fully half of the Lincoln Highway was built with private funds. That's HALFWAY ACROSS THE FREAKIN' COUNTRY!

And tell me you're not counting the trails laid by the Pony Express, a PRIVATE COMPANY, as government roads. Many of the other routes were privately built, at least initially, as well.

Once again, good work. nice derail. Now you have another sacred cow that is fully protected from the facts...but noooo, let's use it as an excuse to throw insults and personal attacks at Shane. That's soooo much easier than admitting we were wrong...

[seayakin]

Originally posted by shanek
Oh, and by the way, if you people weren't busy being such bigots, you'd see that the Lincoln Highway proves my point as well. According to MKJ's link, fully half of the Lincoln Highway was built with private funds. That's HALFWAY ACROSS THE FREAKIN' COUNTRY!

And tell me you're not counting the trails laid by the Pony Express, a PRIVATE COMPANY, as government roads. Many of the other routes were privately built, at least initially, as well.

Once again, good work. nice derail. Now you have another sacred cow that is fully protected from the facts...but noooo, let's use it as an excuse to throw insults and personal attacks at Shane. That's soooo much easier than admitting we were wrong...

I'd like to see you raise private funding to purchase the land in today's market for a route like I95 from Boston to DC. I cannot fathom how this could be done with out raising billions of dollars just to buy the land let alone build such a road. However, if you are looking for the Federal government to sell off existing routes and privatize the roads that is a different matter.

[Solitaire]

Shanek, think of the photocopiers! (http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcriptNOW125_full.html)

MAYOR TOM WILLIAMS: My conscience was clear. I believe, and the people that supported us do believe that it was the right thing to do for the survival of this city.

BRANCACCIO: 'Survival of a city' is a pretty strong statement, but that's what mayor Tom Williams says is at stake here. Norwood is under financial duress - they're running a three million dollar deficit. That, on an annual budget of only $18 million. It's estimated that the new development could net the city two to three million dollars a year in taxes. The mayor says eminent domain was the tool that could to save them.

MAYOR TOM WILLIAMS: I'll give you an example. Prior to sitting down talking to you, we're about ready to lose our copiers.

DAVID BRANCACCIO: Your photocopiers?

MAYOR TOM WILLIAMS: Yeah. Right now struggling to make payroll. We owe pension fund monies. We're under a fiscal watch in the state of Ohio. So we're struggling just to keep our heads above water. And it's vital for us to do these developments. It's vital for us to get the earnings tax in to operate this city.

P.S. Does anyone want to define the word, bigot? :p

[Rob Lister]

Just as a note with no real anticipation of debate, I think private toll roads are fine so long as the tolls are regulated by elected officials.

hehe.

Monkey wrenches can be fun too. I really want to go off topic with a tale of our own toll road through Va Beach and how some on the city council argued that that should be kept in place, even though they promised to remove them once the construction costs were recouped. Their argument was that the needed the funds for the growing social programs and besides, the toll booths acted as an efficient valve to regulate traffic. Other council members suggested that a stop sign would work just as well. But that's off topic. So I won't go into it.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by shanek
Oh, and by the way, if you people weren't busy being such bigots, you'd see that the Lincoln Highway proves my point as well. According to MKJ's link, fully half of the Lincoln Highway was built with private funds. That's HALFWAY ACROSS THE FREAKIN' COUNTRY!
I've looked at both links a couple of times now and don't see where it says that. Quote?
Once again, good work. nice derail. Now you have another sacred cow that is fully protected from the facts... You didn't say which "first (private) transcontinental highway" you were talking about, so I took a guess. My bad. Now, once again, what road are you referring to?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by shanek
That's soooo much easier than admitting we were wrong...

Speaking of admitting you were wrong, do you still stand by the follwing statements you made?

1) All banks are forced at gunpoint to belong to the Federal Reserve

2) Spain had no problems with terrorism until they joined the US coalition in Iraq

Note to skeptics: Shanek will ignore this

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Rob Lister

Monkey wrenches can be fun too. I really want to go off topic with a tale of our own toll road through Va Beach and how some on the city council argued that that should be kept in place, even though they promised to remove them once the construction costs were recouped. Their argument was that the needed the funds for the growing social programs and besides, the toll booths acted as an efficient valve to regulate traffic. Other council members suggested that a stop sign would work just as well. But that's off topic. So I won't go into it.

That's nothing. The same question arose in IL not long ago about the entire toll system, which apparently had reached break-even as well. They didn't even come up with a mealy-mouthed excuse like traffic regulation. They didn't say anything at all.

All they did was give the legislature authority to dip into its funds so the cash addiction got spread around a little more. It's still semi-autonomous, otherwise.

[crimresearch]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
I've looked at both links a couple of times now and don't see where it says that. Quote?
You didn't say which "first (private) transcontinental highway" you were talking about, so I took a guess. My bad. Now, once again, what road are you referring to?

Yes, I'd like to know how many 'first transcontinental highways' there were...this should prove another valuable lesson in word twisting, evasion, and name calling for all of us BIGOTS!!!.

[richardm]

Originally posted by shanek
And tell me you're not counting the trails laid by the Pony Express, a PRIVATE COMPANY, as government roads. Many of the other routes were privately built, at least initially, as well.


How many trails did they actually lay, though?


This site (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/fulcrum/pony-exp.htm) says they mainly used established trails. The exception appears to be:


At Salt Lake City the pony trail departs from the other overland trail routes as it cuts across central Utah, crosses the Great Basin through central Nevada, then follows the Carson River until it scales the Sierra Nevada on its way to Sacramento.


And while you could argue that all routes and trails were originally laid out by private individuals going about their journeys, is it not true that the job of properly metalling them and turning them into what we'd appreciate as "Roads" today was done by Government money? That's a question, not a statement, by the way.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Bump to await a response from Shanek.

Speaking of admitting you were wrong, do you still stand by the following statements you made?

1) All banks are forced at gunpoint to belong to the Federal Reserve

2) Spain had no problems with terrorism until they joined the US coalition in Iraq

Note to skeptics: Shanek will ignore this

So far, I am correct.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by shanek
I'm not, but nice diversion from the subject...
I don't consider asking someone to back up their assertions a "diversion."

Originally posted by shanek
Now you have another sacred cow that is fully protected from the facts... What facts? You still haven't told us what highway you were referring to.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by shanek
The first transcontinental highway was paid for with funds from the car and tire manufacturers, who have the most to profit from a good road system. ...The transcontinental highway was also paid for partially with private buy-ins of $5.
It's an amazing coincidence that the Lincoln Highway also got funding from car/tire manufacturers and accepted contributions as low as $5, don't you think? I'll be interested to see if there are even more similarities to the highway you were talking about. What was its name?

Lincoln Highway: Origins (http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~jlin/lincoln/history/part1.html)
To fund this scheme, he asked for cash donations from auto manufacturers and accessory companies of 1 percent of their revenues. The public could become members of the highway organization for five dollars.Two men from the automobile industry who pledged money to Fisher's idea would later play major roles in the highway's development: Frank Seiberling, president of Goodyear, and Henry Joy, president of the Packard Motor Car Company.

[Iamme]

Where is all the money going that the government is taking in from an ever groing working population, and from the gas tax?

We are receiving less and less from the government, even though we pay more. They want userfees more and more, also...like for the parks.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
It's an amazing coincidence that the Lincoln Highway also got funding from car/tire manufacturers and accepted contributions as low as $5, don't you think? I'll be interested to see if there are even more similarities to the highway you were talking about. What was its name?

Lincoln Highway: Origins (http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~jlin/lincoln/history/part1.html)

I wish to see this reply...

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Mike B.
I wish to see this reply...
Don't hold your breath.

[Solitaire]

Originally posted by Iamme
Where is all the money going that the government is taking in from an ever groing working population, and from the gas tax?

We are receiving less and less from the government, even though we pay more. They want userfees more and more, also...like for the parks.
Supply and demand.
People demand more government, the supply is fixed by law, the price rises.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Mike B.
I wish to see this reply...

And I wish to see this reply:

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Bump to await a response from Shanek.

Speaking of admitting you were wrong, do you still stand by the following statements you made?

1) All banks are forced at gunpoint to belong to the Federal Reserve

2) Spain had no problems with terrorism until they joined the US coalition in Iraq

Note to skeptics: Shanek will ignore this

So far, I am correct.

Get used to it. As you see, as soon as a skeptic boxes shanek in (remarkably easy to do), he clams up and ignores your questions.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
It's an amazing coincidence that the Lincoln Highway also got funding from car/tire manufacturers and accepted contributions as low as $5, don't you think? I'll be interested to see if there are even more similarities to the highway you were talking about. What was its name?

Lincoln Highway: Origins (http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~jlin/lincoln/history/part1.html)

For the sake of discussion, let's assume he is referring to the Lincoln Highway. Since he has been shown to be WRONG (for the 100th time), you will not get an answer. So we assume that is the answer, and continue to refute his feeble "evidence".

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Rob Lister
Just as a note with no real anticipation of debate, I think private toll roads are fine so long as the tolls are regulated by elected officials.

hehe.

Monkey wrenches can be fun too. I really want to go off topic with a tale of our own toll road through Va Beach and how some on the city council argued that that should be kept in place, even though they promised to remove them once the construction costs were recouped. Their argument was that the needed the funds for the growing social programs and besides, the toll booths acted as an efficient valve to regulate traffic. Other council members suggested that a stop sign would work just as well. But that's off topic. So I won't go into it.

It was a happy day for me the day they shut down the toll plaza on 44. And those malfunctioning dime tolls at the on-ramps. Most people just drove through them and let the alarm bell ring. :)

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Jocko
Plus, you now have to pay DOUBLE tolls unless you use a state-supplied transponder which beams your identity at every toll plaza. There has been a great deal of talk about using these signals to issue speeding tickets if the time between scans doesn't jibe with the distance. They already have your name, address and credit card on file, of course.

Some system, huh?

I imagine the non-transponder double cost is some kind of scheme to get out-of-state passers-through to carry the larger burden of cost for your highways. I wonder how truckers feel about it? Can an out-of-state trucker who frequently drives through IL get a transponder?

I've travelled the toll roads in IL many times, and they do suck. Amazing number of potholes. I figured it was due to the extreme temperatures.

When I lived on the East Coast, the NJ turnpike had a system where you got a punchcard handed to you when you got on the highway. When you got off the highway, there was a toll booth at the exit ramp that would charge you according to the distance you had travelled on the turnpike. I heard that they also used the timestamp on the punchcard to determine if you had been speeding and would issue you a ticket if so. I never knew if that was true or not, but I never took the chance.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
For the sake of discussion, let's assume he is referring to the Lincoln Highway. Since he has been shown to be WRONG (for the 100th time), you will not get an answer. So we assume that is the answer, and continue to refute his feeble "evidence".

Come on Shanek has said quite clearly that he meant another road, surely you're not doubting his word. I'm sure he'll be along to tell us which road he was talking about any moment now. Even if he doesn't it's important to remember that it doesn't matter whether he can show that the private sector can solve the problem. You see that's just an argument from ignorance. The true skeptic must accept that the market can always solve any and all problems, whether or not he or anybody else can explain how, after all - the pencil proves it.

[claimee]

Originally posted by shanek
They didn't need to condemn land to build the first (private) transcontinental highway. Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
If you're talking about the Lincoln Highway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Highway),Originally posted by shanek
I'm not, but nice diversion from the subject...and I see the other bigots have fallen right in line with you, as usual.

yet another thread destroyed before it had time to flourish... Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
My mistake. What road are you referring to then? Originally posted by shanek
Oh, and by the way, if you people weren't busy being such bigots, you'd see that the Lincoln Highway proves my point as well. According to MKJ's link, fully half of the Lincoln Highway was built with private funds. That's HALFWAY ACROSS THE FREAKIN' COUNTRY!

And tell me you're not counting the trails laid by the Pony Express, a PRIVATE COMPANY, as government roads. Many of the other routes were privately built, at least initially, as well.

Once again, good work. nice derail. Now you have another sacred cow that is fully protected from the facts...but noooo, let's use it as an excuse to throw insults and personal attacks at Shane. That's soooo much easier than admitting we were wrong... Originally posted by Mahatma Kane Jeeves
You didn't say which "first (private) transcontinental highway" you were talking about, so I took a guess. My bad. Now, once again, what road are you referring to?

[Mike B.]

Of all the bizzareness of the Libretarian Party's policies and its chief booster on this forum:

(Zoning Officials - Scum, Just Scum, privatizing police, personal nukes, FDA repsonsible for millions of deaths, Child labor is good because it gets kids a work ethic, Government mandated saftety caps of medicine killing our children, a drop in the percentage of the vote is "growth,' etc.)

I find the psuedo-history to be the most galling. Whether it be the American Civil War, Colonial History, etc., there is nothing worse to me than the rampant re-writing of history to fit a political agenda.

If this thread is not a perfect example I don't know what is...

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Mike B.
Of all the bizzareness of the Libretarian Party's policies and its chief booster on this forum:

(Zoning Officials - Scum, Just Scum, privatizing police, personal nukes, FDA repsonsible for millions of deaths, Child labor is good because it gets kids a work ethic, Government mandated saftety caps of medicine killing our children, a drop in the percentage of the vote is "growth,' etc.)

I find the psuedo-history to be the most galling. Whether it be the American Civil War, Colonial History, etc., there is nothing worse to me than the rampant re-writing of history to fit a political agenda.
Don't forget his unique insights on the gulf war, apparently Saddam Hussein was acting only on the highest and most Libertarian motives and he never ever annexed Kuwait, no matter what a few thausend webpages might say.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Luke T.
I imagine the non-transponder double cost is some kind of scheme to get out-of-state passers-through to carry the larger burden of cost for your highways. I wonder how truckers feel about it? Can an out-of-state trucker who frequently drives through IL get a transponder?

Oh, sure, anyone can get one. Interstate truckers have them. The real reason for the double whammy is to "encourage" *cough*extort*cough* citizens to put down a deposit on the little devil-boxes and pay for their tolls up front. The last governor said as much, though I can't find a quote.

I've travelled the toll roads in IL many times, and they do suck. Amazing number of potholes. I figured it was due to the extreme temperatures.

Yeah, and the extreme laziness of the crews... and the extreme corruption in the agency... and the extreme lack of meaningful oversight... Honestly, travel 88 west, then take 80 east on the way back. You'll find the free one is in better shape regardless of being in the same climate.

When I lived on the East Coast, the NJ turnpike had a system where you got a punchcard handed to you when you got on the highway. When you got off the highway, there was a toll booth at the exit ramp that would charge you according to the distance you had travelled on the turnpike. I heard that they also used the timestamp on the punchcard to determine if you had been speeding and would issue you a ticket if so. I never knew if that was true or not, but I never took the chance.

Yeah, Ohio, Indiana and Pennsylvania have the same deal on 94. It's actually nicer than the crap in IL... faster, and probably cheaper, too. Plus, my name isn't on the ticket so the states have no computer linked to a database with all my driver's and car info. If they wanted to issue me a ticket, they'll have to do it on the spot. I-Pass could theoretically let them do it by mail.

Parnoid, yes, but I've seen how far IL politicians will go to scrape in a few more bucks. I'll just plan enough time to take the free roads, than you very much. The extra money spent on gas will more than be saved by deferred suspension repairs.

[seayakin]

The rumor I always heard about the Chicago toll boths were patronage jobs for influential peoples idiot relatives and that is the reason they have lasted so long.

I don't have evidence but given Chicago politics its certainly believable.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by claimee


Wow, only 4 posts and you already have shanek figured out! Congratulations!

[Freakshow]

Originally posted by varwoche
Take a right turn on the New Diet Coke Tollway and you're almost there. Libertopia that is.

If labeling it the "New Diet Coke Tollway" lowers the taxes of people who never set tire to that road, then I'm all for it.

[Mike B.]

bump for shanek to clarify which road...

[bigred]

I have an even crazier idea:

How about if, instead of short-cuts and BS gimmicky ideas like this, our bungling, incompetent state and local gov'ts actually LEARN HOW TO MANAGE THEIR MONEY PROPERLY?

It USED to actually work.

[Just thinking]

Originally posted by Luke T.
When I lived on the East Coast, the NJ turnpike had a system where you got a punchcard handed to you when you got on the highway. When you got off the highway, there was a toll booth at the exit ramp that would charge you according to the distance you had travelled on the turnpike.

Speaking of the NJ Turnpike -- I happen to live in NJ and seem to recall something about the Turnpike and Garden State Parkway as being (or once being) privately owned.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by Mike B.
bump Sticks in your craw, too, hunh? Same here. Don't worry-- in a month or two this will be the thread that "proved" the first transcontinental highway was privately built. Sheer repetition and the passage of time trump logic and evidence.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Originally posted by Just thinking
Speaking of the NJ Turnpike -- I happen to live in NJ and seem to recall something about the Turnpike and Garden State Parkway as being (or once being) privately owned.
Kinda sorta, but not really. The Turnpike and Parkway were built by the Turnpike Authority and the Highway Authority, respectively. Both were created by the legislature as quasi-governmental agencies. The Highway Authority was merged into Turnpike Authority a couple of years ago.

In 1948, Governor Alfred E. Driscoll "offered a proposal to the legislature to finance the necessary roads by means of a bond issue by a quasi-governmental authority." [32] As a result, the New Jersey Turnpike Authority opened the state's first superhighway in four sections between November 5, 1951, and January 15, 1952. Source (http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/nj1/chap5.htm)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

bump for shanek to clarify which road...

[WildCat]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
bump for shanek to clarify which road...
You know, that game trail that had a few wagon ruts in it. You'll probably come up w/ some lame excuse that that isn't at all comparable to a modern interstate highway, well Harry Brown can refute that buster! Just you watch!

[Ladewig]

Between 1870 and 1890, Milwaukee Avenue between Chicago's city limits and Wheeling was a private toll road.

[CFLarsen]

Bumpety-bump...

[WildCat]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Between 1870 and 1890, Milwaukee Avenue between Chicago's city limits and Wheeling was a private toll road.
Sure, but we're talking multi-lane, divided, interstate highways here. Not some dirt trail to the next town.

[Mahatma Kane Jeeves]

Quoted for posterity:
Originally posted by shanek
I abandoned that thread because it was clear that evidence wasn't going to get through to the woos. I said everything I have to say. All they threw back at me were lies.

And now the woos are trying their old tack of bringing irrelevant and abandoned threads into the issue. Typical. Source (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1871041501#post1871041501)

Absolutely stunning. I'm at a loss for words.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
bump for shanek to clarify which road...

While you are waiting, read this (http://www.skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=641). I believe this is the current record for shutting shanek down.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by shanek
The first transcontinental highway was paid for with funds from the car and tire manufacturers, who have the most to profit from a good road system.

There can be only one first.

He called his idea the Coast-to-Coast Rock Highway. The gravelled road would cost about ten million dollars, low even for 1912. Communities along the route would provide the equipment and in return would receive free materials and a place along America's first transcontinental highway. The highway would be finished in time for the 1915 Panama-Pacific Exposition and would run from the exposition's host, San Francisco, to New York City.

To fund this scheme, he asked for cash donations from auto manufacturers and accessory companies of 1 percent of their revenues. The public could become members of the highway organization for five dollars.

History of the Lincoln Highway (http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~jlin/lincoln/history/part1.html)

[CFLarsen]

Threads shanek has bailed:

Why didn't the FDA say anything about cigarettes being spiked to cause addiction? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61260)

Private toll roads gathering speed (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59551)

Gas Prices and the Government (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61869)