Atheists' omniscience/freewill argument, DEBUNKED. [Archive] - Page 2

c4ts

8th February 2003, 12:57 PM

There is order and level of intelligence, lets say from a vegetable, to insects to animals to a person then to spirits (God)..

Lets narrow that down to 4 different entity... Lets say a "plant" with iq=3, ants with iq= 5, humans with iq=6, and God with iq=9.

God created ants to have an iq=5, not iq=3

God created plants to have an iq=3, not iq=6

God created humans to have iq=6, not iq=3.

Plants are free to choose and select from 1 to 3 iq's given to him...

Humans in the same way are free to choose and select from 1 to 6 iq's given to him...

If one human selected iq number 6 (which is to rape and molest a child) instead of iq= 4 (which is to love and forgiving), God cannot interfere for if he interferes, then might as well create him into a plant (with iq= 3, incapable of iq= 5.) But God designed him to have an iq=6, and he is free to select among any of the numbers, from 1 to 6...

Child molesting is a sign of intelligence? This is new.

[Edit: So you're telling an entire board full of skeptics they should be as stupid as bunch of ants. What kind of a God demands only the company of ants?]

Ossai

8th February 2003, 02:08 PM

Muscleman
You can only think of yourself as God and decieve yurself as yur doing now, but you cant be God. Got it? Shall we count the straw men? I never claimed to think like your concept of god. I never claimed to be god. I never claimed to have any of the powers of your god.

”IF" we did create the ant, and know everything the ant knows. The ant lives as if it has decisions, making choices given to him/her. But to us who created the ant, the ant have no freewill because we simply programmed the knowledge within the mind of the ant.

The person controlling the ant is responsible for the ant’s actions. Carry the analogy to the next level and we have god is responsible for evil perpetuated by humanity.

God dint just put a gun in front of you, he also put a gun destroyer, a pillow, a banana, etc. and if u pick up the gun and shot and killed somebody, thats your choice. If it is truly my choice then god can not know beforehand which of the objects I will pick up. If god knows infallible beforehand which object I will pick up then I have no choice but to pick up the correct object otherwise god’s foreknowledge isn’t infallible.

I CANT LAY OFF THE INSULTS BCUZ KIDS CAN UNDERSTAND THIS COMMON SENSE, YOUR INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLY IMMEASURABLY STUPID

your a psycho....Your hearing voices in your head skitzo..Who told you that? I didnt....
You did by your previous posts and attitude conveyed through them. If you are trying to sell something to a potential customer you don’t insult the customer. The only reason you would is if you really didn’t want the potential customer to purchase your product, or in you case ‘follow god.’ You are deliberately insulting so that you can appear, at least to yourself, to be witnessing while actually driving off potential recruits.

I chose to respond to your immature post. Instead of workingout right now Sorry that doesn’t prove you have freewill.

I AINT RESPONDING TO YOU AGAIN IF YUR GONNA BRING THIS UP AGAIN MORON Oh no, a threat. Let us see if you live up to it.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 - 13
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Now according to this, before we are even born god has decided our destiny so no matter what we do we are bound for heaven or hell. We might as well have fun while we’re here, since we can’t alter our destiny. That is unless we have the power to oppose god.

Ossai

muscleman

8th February 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Ossai

Now according to this, before we are even born god has decided our destiny so no matter what we do we are bound for heaven or hell. We might as well have fun while we’re here, since we can’t alter our destiny. That is unless we have the power to oppose god.

Ossai

I agree with that completely, and I can see some of that in other ppl's life, such as you (Though once again you and I arent God, we dont know our destiny as God do.).

If your going to act stupid and say "Hey Im destined in hell, might as well have fun while Im still alive, afterall Im a retard who cant think for myself, cant make decision for myself, because I dont have freewill.."

If your going to be a REAL MORON like that BY CHOICE, knowing full-well that you can change BUT WILL NOT CHANGE (though again i am not omniscient and doesnt know your future, maybe you will change), then again you deserve to go to hell with that kind of lifestyle...

I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION, THAT WHETHER YOUR 16 YRS OLD, OR YOUR 50, WHEN YOUR AN ATHEIST, YOU HAVE NOTHING...NO LOGIC, NO TRUTH, NOTHING....I LEARNED THAT BY EXPERIENCE, THANKS FOR GIVING ME THAT KNOWLEDGE GUYS.....

Aardvark_DK

8th February 2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by muscleman
I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION, THAT WHETHER YOUR 16 YRS OLD, OR YOUR 50, WHEN YOUR AN ATHEIST, YOU HAVE NOTHING...NO LOGIC, NO TRUTH, NOTHING....I LEARNED THAT BY EXPERIENCE, THANKS FOR GIVING ME THAT KNOWLEDGE GUYS.....
And reading your posts (and I use the term lightly) should we come to the conclusion that Christians can't spell, have little grasp of grammar, use their caps lock key indiscriminately, and have sig lines that force me to violently rape hedgehogs in order to stop laughing?

Ossai

8th February 2003, 05:51 PM

muscleman
If your going to be a REAL MORON like that BY CHOICE, knowing full-well that you can change BUT WILL NOT CHANGE But there is the dilemma. If I am predestined to change then I must while if I’m predestined not to change then I can’t no matter my wishes. If god already knows infallibly, unless I am capable of disrupting god’s plan, then everything must go that way else god is not infallible.

Aardvark_DK
Oh the poor little hedgehogs :D

Ossai

muscleman

8th February 2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Ossai
muscleman
But there is the dilemma. If I am predestined to change then I must while if I’m predestined not to change then I can’t no matter my wishes. If god already knows infallibly, unless I am capable of disrupting god’s plan, then everything must go that way else god is not infallible.

Aardvark_DK
Oh the poor little hedgehogs :D

Ossai

"But there is the dilemma. If I am predestined to change then I must while if I’m predestined not to change then I can’t no matter my wishes."- DID YOU READ WHAT YOU JUST TYPED?

IF I AM....

IF I AM....

IF I AM.......

"If god already knows infallibly, unless I am capable of disrupting god’s plan, then everything must go that way else god is not infallible."

IF I AM....

IF GOD CREATED ME THIS WAY...

IF GOD CREATED ME THIS WAY...

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DESTINED TO DO MORON, SO YOU CANNOT BREAK AGAINST A KNOWLEDGE X (FUTURE) IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT FUTURE X IS TO BEGIN WITH!.............DUMB SACK OF SHEEP.

I WILL COMPLETELY IGNORE YOU FOR NOW ON, AS I DID WITH BJORK, THE 2 OF YOU NEED BRAIN THERAPY, EITHER THAT OR YOUR JUST A HOPELESS RETARD.....

AND ONE MORE THING, I BET YOUR BORN THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE BRAINWASHED THAT GOD DONT EXIST...A HINDU, OR ASIAN (Not all are like you however; Im not racist, just assuming)...JUST A GUESS AM I RIGHT?

c4ts

8th February 2003, 06:58 PM

It looks like Muscleman found this forum by accident, went to the R&P section, and thought he found an internet hive full of unrepentant sinners who need Jesus. He's not going to pay attention to what we tell him unless he assumes that anybody who doesn't agree with him is wrong in the first place. He is fond of quotes, because lacking confidence in his own wisdom, he thinks turning to the wisdom of the Bible will somehow make his arguments stronger. It is highly unlikely and improbable that he will find any converts on this forum (his own sock puppets won't count), nor that he will stop assuming that people win debates and things through intelligence and maturity alone, neither of which he has sufficiently displayed on this forum.

Bjorn

8th February 2003, 07:42 PM

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DESTINED TO DO MORON, SO YOU CANNOT BREAK AGAINST A KNOWLEDGE X (FUTURE) IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT FUTURE X IS TO BEGIN WITH!. Exactly!

Now my future is destined, and I don't know what my future is, only God knows.

I wonder what happens if I change my mind ..... :(

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/fragend/fragend013.gif

Now it just so happens that I couldn't care less if more or less people believe in God. But if I were an atheist, I would love you for your contributions to atheism. :)

Keep it coming!

Bjorn

8th February 2003, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by c4ts
It looks like Muscleman found this forum by accident, went to the R&P section, and thought he found an internet hive full of unrepentant sinners who need Jesus. He's not going to pay attention to what we tell him unless he assumes that anybody who doesn't agree with him is wrong in the first place. He is fond of quotes, because lacking confidence in his own wisdom, he thinks turning to the wisdom of the Bible will somehow make his arguments stronger. It is highly unlikely and improbable that he will find any converts on this forum (his own sock puppets won't count), nor that he will stop assuming that people win debates and things through intelligence and maturity alone, neither of which he has sufficiently displayed on this forum. ... and he is too borderline even on this forum - I don't even know who to compare with. :(

rachaella

8th February 2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by muscleman

AND ONE MORE THING, I BET YOUR BORN THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE BRAINWASHED THAT GOD DONT EXIST...A HINDU, OR ASIAN (Not all are like you however; Im not racist, just assuming)...JUST A GUESS AM I RIGHT?

Hinduism is not an atheistic religion.

I was not born into an atheist family. When I was born my parents (most recent and most abundant non-american lineage tracing back to germans and austrians, no recent asian ancestry) were non-denominational christians. So no, you are not correct in your biased and racist assumptions.

BillyJoe

9th February 2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by muscleman
Billy this is what your saying..."to God's view we dont have freewill, to humans view we have freewill, therefore.............WE DOPNT HAVE FREEWILL BECAUSE WE ARE GOD!!" Translation....

God's view is that we don't have freewill, therefore God doesn't have free will.
The human view is that we have freewill, therefore we do have free will.

Is this your sort of logic, muscleman?

Originally posted by muscleman
STUPID BILLY, BELIEVE IT OR NOT YOUR NOT GOD, EITHER YOU HAVE FREEWILL, OR U DONT, PERIOD..... CAN YOU PROVE I DONT HAVE FREEWILL? NO YOU CANT, CAN I PROVE YOU HAVE FREEWILL? YES I CAN... Like hell you bloody can.
If I had free will, I wouldn't be back here answering your post. But here I am, driven some sort of compulsion to do so.
Believe me, if I had any choice about it, I wouldn't be here.

Originally posted by muscleman
...ANSWER THIS, ARE U GAY? U ANSWER THIS QUESTION, AND I ALREADY HAVE PROVEN TO YOU YOU HAVE FREEWILL.....

:D

Filippo Lippi

9th February 2003, 05:00 AM

Man Alive!

You guys have the patience of Job, well you would have if he weren't some fictional construct.

The local zoo has a very sucessful primate breeding program; I'm off to debate morality with the marmosets as I doubt they will resort to flinging their faeces quite as quickly as some steroid-enhanced debators.

Mephistopheles

9th February 2003, 05:22 AM

Forgive me -- been out of town for a week, which means four other people have probably rolled this over several times, but ...

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

Certainly it will never come. In what form could this proof possibly assume? I presume the totality of empirical facts is not going to reveal a "God"? Or at least if they did it would mean that God was a physical existent subsisting amongst other physical existents in the Universe. A pretty daft conceptualisation of "God" if you ask me.

No. This is only the case if we suppose that "God" is a physical existent.

The fact that the notion of a "God" may be psychologically desirable consitutes no evidence against a "God".

Nope, but it might explain the global tendency to believe...

The world is already given. It's the intepretation of the world and of ourselves which is the pertinent issue here. If the characteristics of the world are not what you would judge to be suggestive of a "God", then what would the world/Universe have to be like before you felt that the existence of a "God" is likely?

I can tell you what the characteristics of the world/Universe would have to be like before I felt that the existence of a "God" was unlikely. For example if we inhabited a Universe where the information from our sensory perceptions were wholly chaotic and random and we subsisted in a bodiless state.

The fact that we exist and that the universe works the way it does is the precise reason that we are here to ponder it; as you're an old-timer here (and I, by comparison, am a complete n00b), I can only assume you've heard of the anthropic principle? In an irrational universe, unbound by the laws we observe, we wouldn't exist to observe the laws. Order in the universe doesn't demonstrate anything ... except order in the universe.

Remember what God is supposed to be, namely an infinite awareness or consciousness. Unless we presuppose materialism, we cannot find consciousness by examining the processes in the brain. It is inferred from our bodily behaviour. Likewise the existence of a metamind may arguably be inferred from the behaviour of the Universe as a whole. On the other hand, if we are materialists, and declare that consciousness is one and the same thing as the physical and chemical processes within the brain, then it might be deemed to be reasonable to suppose that an infinite consciousness to be identical to empirical reality as a whole.

"Might be deemed reasonable?" So you're saying that God is possible. Given the complete lack of any testable, provable definition, I'll concede that anything might exist. That's not a good reason to act as though it's the truth.

A huge train of assumptions is required in order to get from perceived reality to "God." I concede the universe and its order. I concede our existence as we observe it. Anything beyond that is rampant speculation. It appears that your entire argument can be summarized as: "If God existed, I would expect to see the universe exactly as I see it." If you are so easily satisfied, then I expect we will find little common ground. Am I missing a big part of your argument, or is that pretty much "it?"

If we existed in a completely different universe, with completely different laws, we could make the same arguments, and we again would succeed in proving the complete non-impossibility of an undefined entity. So what? Does your theory predict anything, or make our lives mean anything, or require that we do or become something, or is it just a pretty construct with zero practical value?

Ossai

9th February 2003, 05:45 AM

Muscleman
"But there is the dilemma. If I am predestined to change then I must while if I’m predestined not to change then I can’t no matter my wishes."- DID YOU READ WHAT YOU JUST TYPED? Yes I did, and even more important than that, I understand it.

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DESTINED TO DO MORON, SO YOU CANNOT BREAK AGAINST A KNOWLEDGE X (FUTURE) IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT FUTURE X IS TO BEGIN WITH! But I don’t need to know the destiny. What matters is that there is a destiny picked by god. Now unless I can go against the will of god, it doesn’t matter what I wish, I can’t change my destiny.

I WILL COMPLETELY IGNORE YOU FOR NOW ON, AS I DID WITH BJORK, THE 2 OF YOU NEED BRAIN THERAPY, EITHER THAT OR YOUR JUST A HOPELESS RETARD
We already know your threats are meaningless. You can’t understand a basic concept and logic, or your are deliberately misunderstanding because it threatens your beliefs, therefore you are belittling the messenger or as Doctor X would put it, argumentum ad hominem.

I BET YOUR BORN THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE BRAINWASHED THAT GOD DONT EXIST...A HINDU, OR ASIAN (Not all are like you however; Im not racist, just assuming)...JUST A GUESS AM I RIGHT? Ignoring the racist bit of the quote, the answer to your question is, No, not even close.

Ossai

Mephistopheles

9th February 2003, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by Ossai
Tricky
I didn’t mean to imply that parthenogenesis required a hermaphroditic mother. But it only produces females of the species in question because of the raw material available.

I haven't read all the posts, so perhaps someone has pointed out that honeybee parthenogenesis results in male honeybees...in fact, fertile male honeybees.

Tricky

9th February 2003, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by Mephistopheles

I haven't read all the posts, so perhaps someone has pointed out that honeybee parthenogenesis results in male honeybees...in fact, fertile male honeybees.
That is correct. In honeybees, sexual differentiation is determined by ploidy. Females are diploid, males are haploid. Generation of a queen is done by manipulating environmental characteristics (diet and cell construction). Beekeepers can tell if a hive is about to swarm by noting the appearance of queen cells.

But you are correct that parthenogenesis does not always result in female offspring. Nature has lots of tricks.

muscleman

9th February 2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Translation....

God's view is that we don't have freewill, therefore God doesn't have free will.
The human view is that we have freewill, therefore we do have free will.

Is this your sort of logic, muscleman?

You are also a true moron. IN God's view WE dont have freewill. I DIDNT SAY IN GOD'S VIEW GOD DONT HAVE FREEWILL. I SAID IN GOD'S VIEW "HUMANS" DONT HAVE FREEWILL BUT LIVE BY INSTINCTS...

YOUR A MORON....

Originally posted by BillyJoe

Like hell you bloody can.
If I had free will, I wouldn't be back here answering your post. But here I am, driven some sort of compulsion to do so.
Believe me, if I had any choice about it, I wouldn't be here.

:D

ONCE AGAIN YOUR IMPLYING TO ME THAT YOU CANT CHOOSE, CANT SELECT AND MAKE DECISIONS FOR YOUR SELF, YOUR IMPLYING THAT YOU DONT HAVE FREEWILL...

AGAIN YOUR NOT ONLY A MORON, BUT A BRAINWASHED MORON........

Loki

9th February 2003, 12:43 PM

Win,

Your comments on god and necessity sparked a memory - in particular, I always found this particular "comment" amusing...

From here (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/101908.htm)

Whether the will of God imposes necessity on the things willed?

Objection 1. It seems that the will of God imposes necessity on the things willed. For Augustine says (Enchiridion 103): "No one is saved, except whom God has willed to be saved. He must therefore be asked to will it; for if He wills it, it must necessarily be."
...
Reply to Objection 1. By the words of Augustine we must understand a necessity in things willed by God that is not absolute, but conditional. For the conditional statement that if God wills a thing it must necessarily be, is necessarily true.
Nice piece of double talk - "The only sure thing is that nothing is sure!"

Mind you, I find this reasonable compelling ...

Objection 2. Further, every cause that cannot be hindered, produces its effect necessarily, because, as the Philosopher says (Phys. ii, 84) "Nature always works in the same way, if there is nothing to hinder it." But the will of God cannot be hindered. For the Apostle says (Rm. 9:19): "Who resisteth His will?" Therefore the will of God imposes necessity on the things willed.

Ossai

9th February 2003, 07:38 PM

Mephistopheles

I haven't read all the posts, so perhaps someone has pointed out that honeybee parthenogenesis results in male honeybees...in fact, fertile male honeybees. Yes but honeybees carry the necessary genetic components within themselves. Humans and other mammals don’t normally. Besides honeybees are insects while we were discussing people. Besides I forgot. :confused: Waaaaay to long since that college biology course.

Ossai

BillyJoe

10th February 2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by muscleman
You are also a true moron.....YOUR A MORON.....YOUR NOT ONLY A MORON, BUT A BRAINWASHED MORON.....muscleman, my last post was in jest. I thought I might get a similarly toned reply but alas.....

Ceinwyn

24th February 2003, 02:39 AM

I've read most of the thread (had to just glance at the last couple of pages, it's late and it was mostly the same stuff anyways) but I just had to wonder...

Muscleman claims to be a counsellor to kids and teens. Not only that, but he has stated in this thread that he will treat certain posters as if they were children. I wonder if he uses these phrases with the kids he professes to "counsel"?

YOU GOT IT PRIMITIVE BRAIN GUY?
SO WHATS YUR PROBLEM STUPID?

HOW INCREDIBLY STUPID OF YOU.....
AND ALL OF YOU ARE JUST RAMBLING WITH NO FACTS....

MY STATEMENT IS RAMBLING BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE COMMON SENSE, STUPID, AND CANT THINK STRAIGHT, AND WHAT, YOUR GONNA BLAIM GOD BECAUSE YOUR AN IDIOT WHO DONT PUT ANY EFFORT INTO CHANGING YOUR WAYS?
THEN IM SORRY BUT I HAVE TO SAY THIS. YOU DESERVE TO GO TO HELL

LOL, YOU KIDS ARE SO-STUPID THAT ITS UNBELIEVABLE....

CANT YOU SEE IM TRYING TO SCOOP DOWN TO YUR LEVEL AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR TRYING TO SAY?

YOUR A MORON, NOONE KNOWS WHERE IM DESTINED TO, OR WHERE YOU ARE DESTINED TO..STUPID STUPID STUPID GUY.. YOU CANT CHANGE A DESTINY IF U DONT KNOW THE DESTINY MORON...I AINT RESPONDING TO YOU AGAIN IF YUR GONNA BRING THIS UP AGAIN MORON.......

I WILL COMPLETELY IGNORE YOU FOR NOW ON

BillyJoe

24th February 2003, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by muscleman
YOUR A MORON.... "YOUR A MORON".

:D :D :D

Hey, MM, it's.....

"YOU'RE A MORON" short for "YOU ARE A MORON"

And you thought you couldn't learn anything from the morons on this forum.

:D :D :D

muscleman

24th February 2003, 03:54 AM

LOL, I know...But hey, put the name calling aside, observe the logic. and u should know atheism LOST this argument for sure...

We can bring it out again...Ill try not to call u names this time...

Ceinwyn

24th February 2003, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by muscleman
LOL, I know...But hey, put the name calling aside, observe the logic. and u should know atheism LOST this argument for sure...

Really? How so?

Nothing that you have said in this entire thread has convinced me one jot that I should believe what you do. In fact, you are a scary poster. I don't know what you're like in real life, but I certainly hope you are nothing like the aggressive, pseudo-superior jackass you have shown yourself to be here.

Gregor

24th February 2003, 04:46 AM

Muscleman is simply a puppet. I believe he is Franko acting out a character.

This man doesn't believe anything he's posted, this is purely for his entertainment - so don't over think any of this.

muscleman

24th February 2003, 04:52 AM

LOL, I got to admit, Franko is kinda funny, its like reading atheists post (toothfairies, dont feed trolls, your a puppet, campbell soup, I dont have to prove anything, u do. etc. etc.), brainwashed cults...

Buki, lets put aside the name calling, etc.

Not only I have proven in this post that atheism have NO stance in their argument, but I have proven the long, primitive, statement of omniscience/freewill being contradictory, IT IS DEBUNKED..

Now, want to bring this out again? Say the word..Say it....

Ceinwyn

24th February 2003, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by muscleman
Now, want to bring this out again? Say the word..Say it....

Cacodemon?

winstonjen

3rd August 2003, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by muscleman

Fair enough.. Now wait here, and Ill come back to DEBUNK your posts...Observe and learn amateurs.....

Three points.

1. Unless you're being paid for posting here, you're also an amateur.

2. Why can't you debunk their points immediately?

3. How can you flame so much and not be banned?

EdipisReks

3rd August 2003, 03:04 AM

wow. this is a resurrection worthy of easter.

winstonjen

3rd August 2003, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by EdipisReks
wow. this is a resurrection worthy of easter.

But of course, it does not prove the existence of a deity. ;)

Filippo Lippi

3rd August 2003, 05:18 AM

I miss him

EdipisReks

3rd August 2003, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Fillipo Lippi
I miss him

muscleman? :what: :nope:

Filippo Lippi

3rd August 2003, 09:17 PM

Yes

MRC_Hans

3rd August 2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by muscleman
*snip* lets put aside the name calling, etc.

Not only I have proven in this post that atheism have NO stance in their argument, but I have proven the long, primitive, statement of omniscience/freewill being contradictory, IT IS DEBUNKED..

Now, want to bring this out again? Say the word..Say it.... No, you have not. But if you really can keep off the name-calling, OK lets dicuss it again. Better start from square one.

Hans

Filippo Lippi

4th August 2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
No, you have not. But if you really can keep off the name-calling, OK lets dicuss it again. Better start from square one.

Hans

He gone since April. Let it go, big guy.

MRC_Hans

5th August 2003, 01:06 AM

Oops :o Misread the dates. I thought he had resurfaced. Oh, well :rolleyes:

Nothing to see here, folks. Pass on.

Hans

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by Darat

Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?

Humans lift things. But anyhow...

When you create things, those things are contingent and less perfect than yourself. God's creation is subordinate to himself, so anything that God creates can be manipulated by him.

God cannot create anything more perfect than God. If you think that makes God not-omnipotent that's up to you. You are confusing an activity with what is behind the activity. God was, before the activity.

-Elliot

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 06:03 AM

Wherefore art thou muscleman?

Definitely a change of pace. He really seems to care.

-Elliot

Martin

29th August 2003, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by elliotfc
When you create things, those things are contingent and less perfect than yourselfChallenged your computer to a game of chess lately? ;)If you think that makes God not-omnipotent that's up to youThe purpose of the question is not to show that God is not omnipotent, but to show that any meaningful concept of omnipotence must be constrained by logic.

Upchurch

29th August 2003, 06:10 AM

Wow. talk about the thread that wouldn't die. Muscleman has a longer shelf life than Franko...

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Darat
So you are saying that your God is limited, that he cannot do everything. (In other words your answer to my question is that there are “rocks” God couldn’t lift.)

Muscleman is busy lifting weights, so I'll step up to the plate.

Are there things that we theorize that God cannot do? Yes, yes there are.

Are all theories correct? No, no they are not.

Do rocks that God cannot lift exist? No, I don't think so. Do you believe that rocks that God cannot lift exist? (Play within the theistic mindset for a second...that's what you're doing by asking these questions, right?)

Do you believe that anything a creator does is subordinate to the creator? Perhaps you are thinking of a human who creates something that he can no longer control. But humans are not omnipotent, that is not the claim of humanity. God is (I'm not sure if I accept the word *omnipotent*, we're just trying to work something out here), so I won't hold my ability to create things I can't control against God.

Perhaps a better question is "is there a weight in existence that Muscleman cannot lift?" Before you answer this question, ask yourself how will you be able to prove your answer?

On a more practical level can you tell me where your evidence is for the contention that God has promised never to break the “laws of his creation”?

Could God break the laws of his creation? God creates in the way that God creates, and that is the law of his creation. Other creators create in their own way, a different way than the way God creates. The rules established for the mechanism of the world around us surely do not confine or dictate the way in which God operates.

I am assuming you believe this from your reading of one of the many Christian bibles? Can you please quote the scripture or give me the references to the passages from the Bible that support your statement? I can’t think of any off-hand.

When you give them Bible quotes they get mad. When you don't give them Bible quotes they ask you to. Reminds me of a few women I've known. OOPS did I say women I meant people. People.

-Elliot

Checkmite

29th August 2003, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by Upchurch
Wow. talk about the thread that wouldn't die. Muscleman has a longer shelf life than Franko...

No he doesn't.

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by Martinm Challenged your computer to a game of chess lately? ;)

You missed the point I made later.

I don't claim to be omnipotent.

The purpose of the question is not to show that God is not omnipotent, but to show that any meaningful concept of omnipotence must be constrained by logic.

Agreed. It is illogical that the creation of a perfect being could be superior to the perfect being.

-Elliot

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by Upchurch
Wow. talk about the thread that wouldn't die. Muscleman has a longer shelf life than Franko...

I have never interacted with Muscleman, but in reverence to his large physical frame I will spend a couple hours, fighting the good fight, in his memory. After that time my 145-pound body will undoubtedly wither and break from the burden of carrying the weight of his massive argument.

-Elliot

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
It is a paradox how the future can be changable, yet known (to God), but this paradox is the same whether we or God makes a decision.

If God exists at every point of continuous time is there a future to God?

The future is contingent on, for instance, our decisions. And our decisions are made by free will. Does God make our decisions by empowering us to make decisions? No.

The way I see it, God is outside time; for God time is just another dimension and time, as well as the other dimensions, can be shaped. To us, shaping time is to decide the future. Obviously God can grant us right to shape part of time.

God is beyond all dimensions by my definition, and yes, God grants us the right to decide our own future.

-Elliot

Graham

29th August 2003, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by elliotfc

If God exists at every point of continuous time is there a future to God?

The future is contingent on, for instance, our decisions. And our decisions are made by free will. Does God make our decisions by empowering us to make decisions? No.

God is beyond all dimensions by my definition, and yes, God grants us the right to decide our own future.

-Elliot

Pardon me but does God or does God not know what I'm going to do next?

Graham

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by muscleman
Perfection has nothing to do with judgment, thoughts, or changing mind...Perfection has more to do of "Order". In other words, solutions to every problems...Or answers to every question..A question in itself isnt complete without an answer to it, then this becomes perfect and order...

I think that perfection differs for each entity. I can be "perfect" or doing something "perfectly" when I understand my limitations. I can't be perfect as God is perfect.

We are created in the image of God, we can be perfect in the sight of God, and even before then u are already perfect, perfect for the ways of the world (We always find solutions to our problems, whether the solutions is good or bad, u may cry it out, keep it in and feel the pain, or kill yur enemy, bottom line WE always have solution) Thus making us perfect, either for serving the world, or God....There is no in between, either ur in a bad side, or in a good side...Your judgment is based upon your virtues, and even if yur half good half evil, a place called purgatory is a solution for you as well...

Hmmm. I think muscleman is onto something even if his stylistic prose causes me mental pain.

His idea that we are always "perfect" in varying senses and perspectives is true, for what it's worth (which admittedly might not be much).

Solutions and answers, as he rightly points out, are simply solutions and answers, and they are perfect from different angles.

-Elliot

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by Graham
Pardon me but does God or does God not know what I'm going to do next?

Graham [/B]

I'm not sure.

I don't think God considers *next* when he considers you. He takes you for what you are (and what you are includes your entire past), and values you for your potential, among other things.

God always knows what you *are* doing.

Chronological time is the human reality. I am speculating how God handles this reality. I think he does so in the way I indicate above. It seems the most fair way of doing so, and I think God is a pretty fair entity all things considered.

If he always knows what I'm doing, that makes all that I do equally relevant, so how that effects the notion of "knowing the future" is up for speculation.

-Elliot

Graham

29th August 2003, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by elliotfc

I think that perfection differs for each entity. I can be "perfect" or doing something "perfectly" when I understand my limitations. I can't be perfect as God is perfect.

Hmmm. I think muscleman is onto something even if his stylistic prose causes me mental pain.

His idea that we are always "perfect" in varying senses and perspectives is true, for what it's worth (which admittedly might not be much).

Solutions and answers, as he rightly points out, are simply solutions and answers, and they are perfect from different angles.

-Elliot

In my opinion, this is incorrect. Perfection is perfect, quite perfect, fully perfect and without any flaws.

Solutions and answers may be perfectly adequate but that does not make them perfect.

To be truly perfect, IMO, they would have to be perfect from all angles.

Graham

Graham

29th August 2003, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by elliotfc

I'm not sure.

I don't think God considers *next* when he considers you. He takes you for what you are (and what you are includes your entire past), and values you for your potential, among other things.

God always knows what you *are* doing.

Chronological time is the human reality. I am speculating how God handles this reality. I think he does so in the way I indicate above. It seems the most fair way of doing so, and I think God is a pretty fair entity all things considered.

If he always knows what I'm doing, that makes all that I do equally relevant, so how that effects the notion of "knowing the future" is up for speculation.

-Elliot

In order for God to be "outside" of chronology in the manner you describe, in order for him to be present at all times and "value" me for what I am at each and every time, all those times that are "future" from my perspetive must already exist and thus the future must be predetermined and my supposed free will is an illusion.

No?

Graham

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by Graham
In my opinion, this is incorrect. Perfection is perfect, quite perfect, fully perfect and without any flaws.

Solutions and answers may be perfectly adequate but that does not make them perfect.

To be truly perfect, IMO, they would have to be perfect from all angles.

Graham

What about the angle of imperfection? What if you are using imperfect arguments to speak against perfection?

And if we have a notion of a flaw, does that actually make the notion of a flaw a true flaw?

For example, God creating a rock he couldn't lift...that notion of a flaw is, I think, foolish. Should we use a foolish notion against God to strike at his non-perfection?

We might have to engage in specifics here.

-Elliot

elliotfc

29th August 2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Graham

In order for God to be "outside" of chronology in the manner you describe, in order for him to be present at all times and "value" me for what I am at each and every time, all those times that are "future" from my perspetive must already exist and thus the future must be predetermined and my supposed free will is an illusion.

No?

Graham

They already exist as sort of eternal moments I reckon.

If the future is predetermined it is predetermined by ourselves as choosers. You will arrive at your future using free will, and you don't know how it will all turn out because you are not God. Free will is a real thing, since you can choose to do whatever you want, like pick your nose, without me or God forcing you to do so.

Since God is present with you at every single moment he understands you completely. That is either unsettling or liberating, depending on your perspective. He doesn't determine how you choose, but he always sees you as you are.

Free will might be an illusion, but all I know for sure is I can either pick my nose right now, or not pick my nose. And if that choice is an illusion everything is pointless I guess.

Surely you can look back in your past and say "boy, I really didn't have to do what I just did". Would you take that sentiment seriously, or not?

Graham time for me to go do stuff, then I have a long weekend away from Mr. Computer, so I'll see you next week.

-Elliot

Graham

29th August 2003, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by elliotfc

What about the angle of imperfection? What if you are using imperfect arguments to speak against perfection?

And if we have a notion of a flaw, does that actually make the notion of a flaw a true flaw?

For example, God creating a rock he couldn't lift...that notion of a flaw is, I think, foolish. Should we use a foolish notion against God to strike at his non-perfection?

We might have to engage in specifics here.

-Elliot

Interesting. Are you suggesting that our having a problem with the question "Can God create a rock ... etc" reflects our imperfect ability to understand rather than God's imperfect ability to create and/or lift rocks?

If I fight with my wife over the remote control (which we occassionally do, though of course I always win, ahem <cough> ;) ), my four year old daughter tells us to stop and that we shouldn't fight. She is correct in a sense, we have taught that fighting is wrong but her objection is incorrect in this instance since my wife and I are grown ups and are just playing around and besides, the question of who gets to flick during the commercials is of life-and-death importance and thus transcends normal morality!

My objection to this would be that, whilst a four year old's understanding of right and wrong as pertains to fighting over remote controls may be imperfect, there is nothing imperfect about my understanding of the question "Can God create a rock ... etc"

The remote-fighting question is beyond the capabilities of my four year old but the God question is well within my capabilities - I understand it perfectly. Given the definito of "perfect" God's understanding of the question cannot be "more perfect" than mine because the phrase "more perfect" makes no sense.

If you break the question down like this:

(1) There is no limit to God's power
(2) God can create rocks
(3) God can lift rocks
(4) There is no limit to the size of rock God can create
(5) There is no limit to the size of rocks God can lift
(6) How can God create a rock he cannot lift?

There is nothing more to add than this, really - this gives a perfect understanding of the question. There is nothing more that even God could add to it.

Graham

Dancing David

29th August 2003, 07:53 AM

Why should god be perfect, if it (sorry, gender neutral term) exists then it would be part of nature. Nature is most imperfect and therefore why should god be perfect. And what is perfect other than some whacked human notion of sysmetry and order. Most ungodlike and very human.

Is god to live in a dog? Werf!

Graham

29th August 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by elliotfc

They already exist as sort of eternal moments I reckon.

If the future is predetermined it is predetermined by ourselves as choosers. You will arrive at your future using free will, and you don't know how it will all turn out because you are not God. Free will is a real thing, since you can choose to do whatever you want, like pick your nose, without me or God forcing you to do so.

Since God is present with you at every single moment he understands you completely. That is either unsettling or liberating, depending on your perspective. He doesn't determine how you choose, but he always sees you as you are.

Free will might be an illusion, but all I know for sure is I can either pick my nose right now, or not pick my nose. And if that choice is an illusion everything is pointless I guess.

Surely you can look back in your past and say "boy, I really didn't have to do what I just did". Would you take that sentiment seriously, or not?

Graham time for me to go do stuff, then I have a long weekend away from Mr. Computer, so I'll see you next week.

-Elliot

Pending your return then -

If the future moments already exist, then from my perspective they have always existed, right from the moment of the universe's creation.

If you thus believe God created the universe from start to finish, all at once, then I was created as a person who would at time t commit action a. Nothing that I felt or wanted between the moment of creation and time t could allow me to commit any action other than a.

By this definiton, I am nothing more than a computer, following a programme - my free will is an illusion, little more than a cruel joke.

Graham

Graham

29th August 2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Dancing David
Why should god be perfect, if it (sorry, gender neutral term) exists then it would be part of nature. Nature is most imperfect and therefore why should god be perfect. And what is perfect other than some whacked human notion of sysmetry and order. Most ungodlike and very human.

Is god to live in a dog? Werf!

Pass it over to me, my friend! I could do with it.

Of what use is an imperfect God? Why should we worship him? If God is imperfect than he may be better than me but no more so than, say, Einstein or an olympic athelete.

Our notions of the specifics of perfection may be "whacked" but the general concept is, IMO, valid. It is not necessary to be able to list every "perfect" characteristic in order to be able to say "That's imperfect".

Graham

Dancing David

29th August 2003, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Graham

Pass it over to me, my friend! I could do with it.

Of what use is an imperfect God? Why should we worship him? If God is imperfect than he may be better than me but no more so than, say, Einstein or an olympic athelete.

Our notions of the specifics of perfection may be "whacked" but the general concept is, IMO, valid. It is not necessary to be able to list every "perfect" characteristic in order to be able to say "That's imperfect".

Graham

Uh, of what use is god, Gujeff and the bicycling fish come to mind. I prefer imperfect deities myself, like Freya, so I don't know.

But isn't perfect a social and cultural contruct and therefore plastic and situational? So wouldn't a perfect god reflect the imperfect world?

Peace

Graham

29th August 2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Dancing David

Uh, of what use is god, Gujeff and the bicycling fish come to mind. I prefer imperfect deities myself, like Freya, so I don't know.

But isn't perfect a social and cultural contruct and therefore plastic and situational? So wouldn't a perfect god reflect the imperfect world?

Peace

Perfect is not relative, perfect is perfect - it's an absolute with no room for qualilfication, social, cultural or otherwise. The term is defined just so.

Why does God have to reflect the world, unless you believe that God is the world?

Of what use are your imperfect Gods? Why bother with them? Your believing in them has no appreciable effect, they have no power to punish you for not believing in them, so why bother?

Graham

Ossai

29th August 2003, 10:01 AM

elliotfc
God is beyond all dimensions by my definition, and yes, God grants us the right to decide our own future.
But if god is omnipotent, a superset containing omniscience, then our freewill could go against what god wished. If we, as non-omnipotent beings, can disrupt the plans of a supposedly omnipotent being then how can that being claim to be omnipotent. Wouldn't a better description simply be, 'more powerful than…'?

Solutions and answers, as he rightly points out, are simply solutions and answers, and they are perfect from different angles. So SIDS, sudden infant death syndrome, is perfect? From what angle? In relation to what?

I don't think God considers *next* when he considers you. He takes you for what you are (and what you are includes your entire past), and values you for your potential, among other things.

God always knows what you *are* doing.

Chronological time is the human reality. I am speculating how God handles this reality. I think he does so in the way I indicate above. It seems the most fair way of doing so, and I think God is a pretty fair entity all things considered.
You've just negated free will. If god exists outside time and can see the entirety of a person's life then that person is incapable of deviating from god's knowledge.

Infallible foreknowledge is incompatible with freewill.

If the future is predetermined it is predetermined by ourselves as choosers. You will arrive at your future using free will, and you don't know how it will all turn out because you are not God. Free will is a real thing, since you can choose to do whatever you want, like pick your nose, without me or God forcing you to do so. Incorrect, that is the Illusion of Free Will and not free will itself. You are presented a choice between, A and B, god already knows the outcome (B) even though you haven't yet made the decision. If god has infallible foreknowledge then you can only choose (B) but you have the illusion of A or B.

Ossai

Dancing David

29th August 2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Graham

Perfect is not relative, perfect is perfect - it's an absolute with no room for qualilfication, social, cultural or otherwise. The term is defined just so.

care to define perfect then and explain to me how it is not a culturaly defined norm

Why does God have to reflect the world, unless you believe that God is the world?

God does not have to reflect the world but to have any meaning god should at least intersect the world. Otherwise god would be apart from the world and solely an abstaract concept.

Of what use are your imperfect Gods? Why bother with them? Your believing in them has no appreciable effect, they have no power to punish you for not believing in them, so why bother?

These seems to be arhetorical question, and so you already have you answer. But what use are gods? depends on the god, some gods are hammers, some are glue, depends on personal taste and purpose. If I chose to adore a diety it is not out of fear, how Judeo-Christian-Puritan!

Graham

So , What is perfection?

Do you really believe that it is not just a human contruct. A jar exists and a broken jar exist , bith are perfect in thier own way.

Can you define 'perfect' beauty? Or 'perfect' behavior?

Words and more words, meaning comes form context and relation.

PS Some wit on another thread once asked if god could make a burrito so hot he couldn't eat it.

DrMatt

3rd May 2004, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by BrianT
Anybody else here play saxophone?

I had a silver C-Mel (Buescher) but gave it away to a friend who had more time to play--I needed to concentrate on writing notes.

BoulderHead`

3rd May 2004, 10:47 AM

Perfection doesnt mean NOT commiting sin, perfection means "order",…
Is this definition something you invented yourself, or can you provide a suitable reference?

…in other words, having solution for every actions, whether good or bad, so at the end they come in order...Just as the stereo is not "perfect" without the speaker, not that a stereo without a speaker is a mistake, but it is in itself, but with the speaker it is complete........
Yes, well I can see how this would seem true if were already believe to be so.

For every sin commited, we must ask for forgiveness, then repair it, then you become perfect...This is how a person become perfect, and enter heaven...........
This sounds like religion, not reason.

IS THE DEVIL A MISTAKE?

Yes, the devil in itself is a mistake, but with Jesus death in the cross, it is perfection.........

The devil is part of "Order", in other words, part of "Perfection"...Jesus death in the cross is the other part of the order/perfection.........
Religion, not reason.

But what about the old testament? Jesus didnt die on the cross then, does it mean everyone else then went to hell?

People are not accountable for the sin they commited if they didnt know it is wrong to begin with…"Those who does not know sin does not commit sin".
Well in that case I suggest you immediately stop spreading "the good news", because doing so only feeds the furnaces of Hell. Is this really what another caring human being should be doing to his fellow man ?

So going back to the question.... If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?
Forget it, I’m no longer interested. It is clear to me that learning anything more on this matter will only enable my immortal soul to be placed in a jeopardized position. You wouldn’t want that to happen, would you ?