Atheists' omniscience/freewill argument, DEBUNKED.

[muscleman]

Hello everyone, this is my first topic post..I typed it today out of anger, because some ppl become atheists because of the omniscience/freewill argument, which to me doesnt prove God dont exist..

So I typed all this, to flaw atheists argument. I invite anyone to respond to this (excuse my grammar and wrong spelling, dont want to spend time on that, this is just a rough draft..) Here it goes.........




If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?


Thats the same question as ...."If God knows in the future that some of us are going to heaven, why did he create us anyways?"...

First of all, whoever said that it is a bad thing to put in hell those who are greedy, selfish, murderer, and rapist? They do belong to hell..

And whoever said it is bad for the sorrowfull, kind, loving, patient man to enter heaven? They do belong to heaven...

The question is, who is responsible for making them the way they are? GOD AND THE DEVIL IS....BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEVIL? GOD IS....

But did God made a mistake? I thought God is all perfect?

"Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect'- Bible...

Perfection doesnt mean NOT commiting sin, perfection means "order", in other words, having solution for every actions, whether good or bad, so at the end they come in order...Just as the stereo is not "perfect" without the speaker, not that a stereo without a speaker is a mistake, but it is in itself, but with the speaker it is complete........

For every sin commited, we must ask for forgiveness, then repair it, then you become perfect...This is how a person become perfect, and enter heaven...........

IS THE DEVIL A MISTAKE?

Yes, the devil in itself is a mistake, but with Jesus death in the cross, it is perfection.........

The devil is part of "Order", in other words, part of "Perfection"...Jesus death in the cross is the other part of the order/perfection.........

But what about the old testament? Jesus didnt die on the cross then, does it mean everyone else then went to hell?

People are not accountable for the sin they commited if they didnt know it is wrong to begin with "Those who does not know sin does not commit sin". God didnt reveal to them yet that we should love our enemy and care for one another..(There is a reason for this, the reason is a mustard seed takes time to grow and be mature. Just as human brains evolve, our brain at the time are too primitive to handle so much knowledge. Just as an infant cannot learn square root at age of 6 montns, but in due time through maturity will be able to.)

So going back to the question.... If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?

Rephrase that by saying........

"If God knows in the future that the evil, murdered, and lazy ppl are going to hell, and the patient, kind, sorrowfull, loving man are going to heaven, why did God create Jesus and the Devil to begin with?"


Its a mind trick, satan is the master of confusion. THIS QUESTION IS ALL AN ILLUSION, THERE IS NO TRUTH TO THIS...If you take things OUT OF CONTEXT, it makes it sound like this is contradictory, but again there is nothing contradictory about this...People who went to hell deserves to go to hell, and people who went to heaven deserves to go to heaven...

God created jesus, but he also created the devil...YOU CANT TAKE ONE, WITHOUT THE OTHER, OTHERWISE IT WILL CONTRADICT...........

But whos responsible for those who went to hell? The devil...And whos responsible for the devil? God....

But are those who went to hell completely surrounded with evil? NO, they were surrounded with good as well (Gods words through prophets.).....But why did they went to hell? Because they decided to choose the easy path instead, the devil....But who created their decisions in which choses to do evil? God did...

But doesnt this point out that God Himself is "like" the devil? No...Why not?

Bottom line here is that whether God created him or not (and he did) fact that the matter is, greedy, selfish, self centered, murderers belongs to hell...They live in a life of "easy" way out, pleasure comes first, their way comes first, so at the end they suffered, for they already had their pleasure...Even if God is responsible for this, NOBODY COMPLAINS WHEN THINGS GO THEIR WAY, NOBODY IS MAD ABOUT THEIR LIFE WHEN THEY ARE A HAPPY PERSON, AND FROM HERE, THIS WILL TAKE YOU TO HELL...............


But if someone complains about their happy life, then they can change their ways and seek for the truth...
This is the truth, that nobody is happy about starving (depriving oneself of food to save another life..). Nobody is happy about spending alot of time to the handicap instead of spending a lot of time to an attractive opposite sex who "loves" you and have alot of money. Nobody is happy about loving your enemy, only in this way we can find peace...


You can be happy about doing this things, BUT FIRST, you must train yourself (alot of sacrifice), the cross, in due time, YOU WILL BEGIN ENJOYING FOLLOWING THE VIRTUE, THIS IS CALLED "HEAVEN"" SPIRITUAL HAPPINESS.....
The way to the cross is the way to the happiness, theres no other way. Can you point to me one person who is naturally born to enjoy fasting, loving their enemies, and enjoys spending time with the handicap with the option of spending time with the rich and famous person? NOT ONE PERSON IN THIS EARTH ARE LIKE THIS...


If you claim there is, then prove it...Tell me his/her name, address, documented life, etc..EVEN SAINTS HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE CROSS...

Those who complain there is another way is a liar...There is no other way to the gate but through the door, and those who claim that there is, by climbing through the wall, those are the thieves, the liars, and the greedy. Once again, the way to happiness, is the way to the cross....

Either you suffer first, then be happy later...Or suffer first, then be happy later, YOUR CHOICE....

So lets go back to the question one last time....

"If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?"

That is jumping from one conclusion to another, without qouting the facts of why people go to hell, what they did and how they lived their life.....

That is like saying...

"An atom "Became" a singled cell life form, therefore there is no need of God in order for life to exist."..

Scientifically speaking, this is currently impossible....Therefore you shouldnt say "AN ATOM BECAME A SINGLED CELL LIFE FORM", because the fact is, you havent quoted the cause of it..From chemicals, to physics, sub-atomic particles, etc. LIFE IS AN ORDER, LIFE IS COMPLEX, AND LIFE IS PERFECTION...

IF YOU TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT, IT WILL NO LONGER BE "ORDER" AND PERFECTION, BUT IT WILL CONTRADICT AS IT IS THE CASE FOR THIS QUESTION.........

So the atheists question is just a simple mind trick, indeed, a work of the devil (my belief), master of illusion, father of lies. Next time that question is posted, this answer must be posted as well, THAT WAY IT WONT CONTRADICT........

[BrianT]

Anybody else here play saxophone?

[aerosolben]

Hi, muscleman. I read through your post and honestly can't find where you answered the question, "If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?"
Perhaps if you could write a concise answer to that, then seperately defend that answer. Right now, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Edwin]

I didn't read all the way through, but it MUST BE TRUE because it uses CAPITAL LETTERS!

I understand Undercover Elephant. This person um no.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

muscleman,

Hello everyone, this is my first topic post..I typed it today out of anger, because some ppl become atheists because of the omniscience/freewill argument, which to me doesnt prove God dont exist..

I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent. But, of course, not all theists believe in an omniscient God, and not all of those that do believe in conceptions of free-will that are incompatible with fatalism.

I don't know of anybody who would cite that as their reason for being an atheist, though. What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs.

If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?

Thats the same question as ...."If God knows in the future that some of us are going to heaven, why did he create us anyways?"...

First of all, whoever said that it is a bad thing to put in hell those who are greedy, selfish, murderer, and rapist? They do belong to hell..

Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.

And whoever said it is bad for the sorrowfull, kind, loving, patient man to enter heaven? They do belong to heaven...

Nobody that I know of.

The question is, who is responsible for making them the way they are? GOD AND THE DEVIL IS....BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEVIL? GOD IS....

But did God made a mistake? I thought God is all perfect?

Either he made a mistake, or he is cruel and unjust.

Perfection doesnt mean NOT commiting sin, perfection means "order", in other words, having solution for every actions, whether good or bad, so at the end they come in order...Just as the stereo is not "perfect" without the speaker, not that a stereo without a speaker is a mistake, but it is in itself, but with the speaker it is complete........

For every sin committed, we must ask for forgiveness, then repair it, then you become perfect...This is how a person become perfect, and enter heaven...........

Oh, so it isn't a question of good or evil, but instead of some arbitrary "perfection" that God defines? Doesn't this just confirm the argument that such a God commits evil acts?

IS THE DEVIL A MISTAKE?

Yes, the devil in itself is a mistake, but with Jesus death in the cross, it is perfection.........

Is that supposed to make sense? Oh, by the way, doesn't your religion hold that Jesus is alive? If so, what kind of sacrifice was his death on the cross, anyway?

But what about the old testament? Jesus didnt die on the cross then, does it mean everyone else then went to hell?

People are not accountable for the sin they committed if they didnt know it is wrong to begin with "Those who does not know sin does not commit sin". God didnt reveal to them yet that we should love our enemy and care for one another..(There is a reason for this, the reason is a mustard seed takes time to grow and be mature. Just as human brains evolve, our brain at the time are too primitive to handle so much knowledge. Just as an infant cannot learn square root at age of 6 montns, but in due time through maturity will be able to.)

You should read your Bible again. This isn't what it says.

Bottom line here is that whether God created him or not (and he did) fact that the matter is, greedy, selfish, self centered, murderers belongs to hell...They live in a life of "easy" way out, pleasure comes first, their way comes first, so at the end they suffered, for they already had their pleasure...Even if God is responsible for this, NOBODY COMPLAINS WHEN THINGS GO THEIR WAY, NOBODY IS MAD ABOUT THEIR LIFE WHEN THEY ARE A HAPPY PERSON, AND FROM HERE, THIS WILL TAKE YOU TO HELL...............

This is nonsense. Like I said before, punishment that serves no purpose is not punishment. It is vengeance, and it is unjust.

So the atheists question is just a simple mind trick, indeed, a work of the devil (my belief), master of illusion, father of lies. Next time that question is posted, this answer must be posted as well, THAT WAY IT WONT CONTRADICT........

You want to know why I am an atheist? It is because there is no reliable evidence anywhere for any sort of God. That is all. It has nothing to do with questions of morality, justice, good, evil, etc...

There is no rational reason to believe any gods exist, so I don't.

Furthermore, it sounds like you are using the term "atheist" to be synonymous with non-Christian. Only about a third of the World's population is Christian, and only a small fraction of that number is the same type of Christian as you. Are they all going to Hell? Do they all deserve Hell for not having been indoctrinated from birth into the same cult as you?

Dr. Stupid

[muscleman]

First, I have to say that the first time i discovered forums was on sciforums.com, from yahoo, but too much kids there, and "some guy" showed me this..
I warn you, I may appear to be amateur bcuz of the way I type, but Im not. I have debated with atheists many times before (professors, or teens.), so Im not new at this at all....My point is, please becarefull before u post, and make sure they are good arguments, that way I dont have to call you names ok? I also ask, how old are you? (I hope yur NOT a teenager..)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
muscleman,



I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent.

Any religion that teaches a limited God are incoherent and self-contradicting.....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs..

Pointing out what a "Good God" to your PERSONAL belief, states nothing incoherent of an all knowing God...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.

When making a comment on "eternity", learn the WHOLE context first...Why are they locked for all eternity, those who serve satan and satan himself? The purpose is so that "No longer will they able to harm the world.." They are locked for eternity, and will never be released.

If God created human in his image, they are designed for "eternity", whether such individuals "prefer" the easy life, or the truth..

God cannot create an eternal soul, then break his own law of creation/covenant (theres a difference between "changing mind" or "breaking a promise, breaking a covenant."...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before..

Once again ur taking things out of context, God didnt just placed a gun in front of man, but he also placed a gun crusher. If the using the gun is more pleasurable and he chose to kill, and God called with in him and say "Ask for forgiveness" but the man chose to rationalize his act because IT IS THE EASY WAY, I pretty much believe that his "stupidity" deserves eternity in hell...God may have been "like" the computer programmer, but since the fact is "we have not been able to create an independent intelligence computer", we cannot really use that analogy..But bottom line here is, AS IN THE REAL WORLD, you and I are aware of our actions, and knows when we kill, or when we rape, and knows when we reject correction, or accept responsibility....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


Either he made a mistake, or he is cruel and unjust...

What is mistake to you? What is cruel to you? What is unjust to you? To you, it is cruel that the devil and all his followers are locked away for all eternity never again to feel the pleasure of life (reincarnation).. To me, it is NOT cruel that rapist, liars (abortionist), and killers are locked away for all eternity, ESPECIALLY if they are aware of their act (have been corrected but too stubborn..) Correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Oh, so it isn't a question of good or evil, but instead of some arbitrary "perfection" that God defines? Doesn't this just confirm the argument that such a God commits evil acts?

Evil to some, are good to others. To you abortion maybe good, but to us its evil..God is evil to others, but God is good to others as well....Again, correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Is that supposed to make sense? Oh, by the way, doesn't your religion hold that Jesus is alive? If so, what kind of sacrifice was his death on the cross, anyway?

Jesus experienced death, torture, rejection, he endured all the human race endured. Thus, you cant call God "hypocrite" for he practice what he preach..
He was then ressurected (reincarnation), for this is the life God promised, a soul that does not get ressurected is a suffering soul, longing the flesh it formerly owned but cannot obtain it....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

You should read your Bible again. This isn't what it says.

may not be exact words, but something like it....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

This is nonsense. Like I said before, punishment that serves no purpose is not punishment. It is vengeance, and it is unjust.

Thats your opinion...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

You want to know why I am an atheist? It is because there is no reliable evidence anywhere for any sort of God. That is all. It has nothing to do with questions of morality, justice, good, evil, etc...

There is no rational reason to believe any gods exist, so I don't.

To you, but to others God is proven. Besides, what kind of proof are you looking for? Explain.......


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Furthermore, it sounds like you are using the term "atheist" to be synonymous with non-Christian. Only about a third of the World's population is Christian, and only a small fraction of that number is the same type of Christian as you. Are they all going to Hell? Do they all deserve Hell for not having been indoctrinated from birth into the same cult as you?

Dr. Stupid

U have to look deeper than the "titles", people doesnt appear as they claim to be..
You maybe more christian than I am, although u claim to be atheists, while I claim to be a christian, but your virtues may possibly be more of the life Jesus pointedf out we should live...Just as the roman soldier (who was considered Pagan) have the strongest faith of all in jerusalem (ppl who claim to be believers of God), in Jesus time....Or the theif on the cross who was considered to be "evil" at the time but went to heaven...

[Stimpson J. Cat]

muscleman,

First, I have to say that the first time i discovered forums was on sciforums.com, from yahoo, but too much kids there, and "some guy" showed me this..
I warn you, I may appear to be amateur bcuz of the way I type, but Im not. I have debated with atheists many times before (professors, or teens.), so Im not new at this at all....My point is, please becarefull before u post, and make sure they are good arguments, that way I dont have to call you names ok? I also ask, how old are you? (I hope yur NOT a teenager..)

I am a 30 year old Physicist. You can call me any names you want. All doing so will do is illustrate your own inability to debate in a mature way.

I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent.
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Any religion that teaches a limited God are incoherent and self-contradicting.....

How so? Do you have any argument to back that up? I know a lot of very intelligent Theists who would disagree with you on that point.

What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pointing out what a "Good God" to your PERSONAL belief, states nothing incoherent of an all knowing God...

Nor is it intended to. The entire point is to point out the inconsistency of a God that is all-knowing and omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. If you do not believe that GOd is all three, then these arguments clearly are not applicable to your conception of God.

Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When making a comment on "eternity", learn the WHOLE context first...Why are they locked for all eternity, those who serve satan and satan himself? The purpose is so that "No longer will they able to harm the world.." They are locked for eternity, and will never be released.

Two points:

1) Why torture them for all eternity? What purpose does that serve? I realize that some religions hold that Hell is just separation from god, but (a) that isn't what the Bible says, and (b) the argument that it is wrong to condemn people to Hell is not applicable to such a belief system.

2) Why not just destroy them?

If God created human in his image, they are designed for "eternity", whether such individuals "prefer" the easy life, or the truth..

God cannot create an eternal soul, then break his own law of creation/covenant (theres a difference between "changing mind" or "breaking a promise, breaking a covenant."...

Did you just say that there is something that God cannot do? Doesn't that contradict your above statement that God cannot be limited?

And how does an all-knowing God change his mind, anyway? Certainly he would know that he is just going to change his mind later?

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before..
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Once again ur taking things out of context, God didnt just placed a gun in front of man, but he also placed a gun crusher. If the using the gun is more pleasurable and he chose to kill, and God called with in him and say "Ask for forgiveness" but the man chose to rationalize his act because IT IS THE EASY WAY, I pretty much believe that his "stupidity" deserves eternity in hell...

Two more points.

1) This doesn't address my point at all.

2) You cannot reasonably claim that God has instructed us to ask for forgiveness, because He has not done so in a way that can be reasonably recognized as such. Not only has only a small fraction of the Human population ever received this "message", but even if we assume that the Bible is truth, the message has been given in such a way that we cannot reliably know that it is legitimate. There is no more evidence that the Bible is the truth, then for any other ancient mythology.

God may have been "like" the computer programmer, but since the fact is "we have not been able to create an independent intelligence computer", we cannot really use that analogy..But bottom line here is, AS IN THE REAL WORLD, you and I are aware of our actions, and knows when we kill, or when we rape, and knows when we reject correction, or accept responsibility....

Irrelevant. I have never killed nor raped anybody. I live my life according to the Golden Rule. But according to your religion, I am going to be tortured in Hell for all of eternity, because Adam and Eve did something naughty, and because I am not convinced by the unreliable evidence that your God exists.

Either he made a mistake, or he is cruel and unjust...
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What is mistake to you? What is cruel to you? What is unjust to you? To you, it is cruel that the devil and all his followers are locked away for all eternity never again to feel the pleasure of life (reincarnation).. To me, it is NOT cruel that rapist, liars (abortionist), and killers are locked away for all eternity, ESPECIALLY if they are aware of their act (have been corrected but too stubborn..) Correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

First of all, the Bible does not just condemn liars killers and rapists to Hell. In fact, it does not condemn them to Hell at all. Have you ever read the Bible? What determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell is whether you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins. According to the Bible everybody, even a newborn infant, "deserves" Hell. Only the forgiveness of Jesus can save you.

Second, I define "cruel" to be causing pain for no purpose.

Oh, so it isn't a question of good or evil, but instead of some arbitrary "perfection" that God defines? Doesn't this just confirm the argument that such a God commits evil acts?
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Evil to some, are good to others. To you abortion maybe good, but to us its evil..God is evil to others, but God is good to others as well....Again, correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

If this is the case, then the argument from evil that you are attacking does not apply to your beliefs. It only applies to those who believe that God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

I am quite happy to agree that the God described in the Bible is, according to my moral standards, an evil, vindictive, and cruel being. My lack of belief in your mythology has nothing to do with this, though.

Is that supposed to make sense? Oh, by the way, doesn't your religion hold that Jesus is alive? If so, what kind of sacrifice was his death on the cross, anyway?
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Jesus experienced death, torture, rejection, he endured all the human race endured.

Get real. The torment Jesus received in the Bible is nothing compared to what people have been subjected to by so-called Christians for not believing. The tortures used by the Church to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity make the Crucifixion look like a walk in the park.

Thus, you cant call God "hypocrite" for he practice what he preach..
He was then ressurected (reincarnation), for this is the life God promised, a soul that does not get ressurected is a suffering soul, longing the flesh it formerly owned but cannot obtain it....

I don't claim God is a hypocrite. I claim that the resurrection is, at best, symbolic.

You should read your Bible again. This isn't what it says.
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may not be exact words, but something like it....

No, nothing like it. The notion that people who haven't been fortunate enough to have heard the word of Jesus won't go to Hell for not believing, is a fairly recent concept, invented to try to reconcile the modern belief that people should not be punished for things that they had no control over, with the fact that the Bible clearly states that they should. It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

This is nonsense. Like I said before, punishment that serves no purpose is not punishment. It is vengeance, and it is unjust.
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Thats your opinion...

You have a strange notion of Justice. Do you really believe that it is just to cause somebody pain, even if doing so will have no beneficial effect whatsoever?

There is no rational reason to believe any gods exist, so I don't.
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To you, but to others God is proven. Besides, what kind of proof are you looking for? Explain.......

Reliable evidence. Confirmable objective facts from which the existence of God can be logically deduced. Can you provide any argument for believing in your God that could not just as easily be applied to some other God?

Furthermore, it sounds like you are using the term "atheist" to be synonymous with non-Christian. Only about a third of the World's population is Christian, and only a small fraction of that number is the same type of Christian as you. Are they all going to Hell? Do they all deserve Hell for not having been indoctrinated from birth into the same cult as you?

Dr. Stupid
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U have to look deeper than the "titles", people doesnt appear as they claim to be..
You maybe more christian than I am, although u claim to be atheists, while I claim to be a christian, but your virtues may possibly be more of the life Jesus pointedf out we should live...Just as the roman soldier (who was considered Pagan) have the strongest faith of all in jerusalem (ppl who claim to be believers of God), in Jesus time....Or the theif on the cross who was considered to be "evil" at the time but went to heaven...

Maybe, but I don't believe that Jesus ever really lived. I don't believe in God, Satan, Heaven, or Hell. And according to the Bible which is the only source of information about these things, I am an evil person for this, and I will burn for all of eternity because of it, while somebody who lives their life in the most evil and depraved ways you can imagine, but who repents at the last minute before he dies, will go to Heaven.


Dr. Stupid

[Darat]

Originally posted by muscleman
...snip...

Any religion that teaches a limited God are incoherent and self-contradicting.....


...snip...

Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
muscleman,

I am a 30 year old Physicist. You can call me any names you want. All doing so will do is illustrate your own inability to debate in a mature way.

thats a good news, I hope yur telling the truth....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

How so? Do you have any argument to back that up? I know a lot of very intelligent Theists who would disagree with you on that point..


God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Nor is it intended to. The entire point is to point out the inconsistency of a God that is all-knowing and omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. If you do not believe that GOd is all three, then these arguments clearly are not applicable to your conception of God.
God is all three, (omnipresent as well just to add)......

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Two points:

1) Why torture them for all eternity? What purpose does that serve? I realize that some religions hold that Hell is just separation from god, but (a) that isn't what the Bible says, and (b) the argument that it is wrong to condemn people to Hell is not applicable to such a belief system.

2) Why not just destroy them?

Theres a difference between God "capable" of doing everything and anything. And God doing anything and everything. God is capable of breaking the laws of his creation, but he wont, because God keeps his promise...I said this before and I say this again...

God is living, you and I are created in his image. We change minds, so does God. We can be perfect when we find our ways, as God is perfect...

Changing mind is part of knowing things..Thats how we solve ideas or thoughts, by using our judgment, we can change ideas and at the end the truth awaits. We are created in the image of God, God have solutions to EVERY SINGLE DETAIL HE HAS DONE, from stars death (blackhole;recycled) to human psychology. Being all knowing implies "all judgment", in other words "all thinking".

Once again theres a difference between changing mind, and breaking promise....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Did you just say that there is something that God cannot do? Doesn't that contradict your above statement that God cannot be limited?

And how does an all-knowing God change his mind, anyway? Certainly he would know that he is just going to change his mind later?

Aforementioned... But illl type it again, theres a difference between "capable" of doing anything and everything, and DOING anything and everything...

Just because I am capable of slaughtering 20 guys in my liftime, it doesnt mean I will do it.......I am entitled to use human analogy, for the claim is we are created in the image of God (just to add that)...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Two more points.

1) This doesn't address my point at all.

2) You cannot reasonably claim that God has instructed us to ask for forgiveness, because He has not done so in a way that can be reasonably recognized as such. Not only has only a small fraction of the Human population ever received this "message", but even if we assume that the Bible is truth, the message has been given in such a way that we cannot reliably know that it is legitimate. There is no more evidence that the Bible is the truth, then for any other ancient mythology.

I realized that wont answer your question, so I typed this few minutes ago to annihilate your post...

Isnt it God is responsible as well if your really stupid and do wrong anyways?

Yes he is, thats why a stupid person in itself is wrong, but existence of "hell" is justice and "order" ( perfection)...You cant take things out of context...

Thats why if you commit wrong, and your aware of your wrong, repent and ask for forgiveness (if today u hear my words, harden not yur hearts), otherwise if you continue to be stupid, then you will enter hell. (FOR NONE KNOWS WHAT IS AHEAD OF US BUT GOD ALONE..).

And once again God is also responsible for a very stupid person who went to hell, but again a stupid person in itself is a mistake, thats why hell exist for justice sake; perfection and order. In summary God didnt made a mistake, if hell didnt exist, then God made a mistake, but because hell exist for a stupid person, then thats justice and order....

Just as a reciever alone isnt order (may be a mistake) but with speakers, it bcomes order and perfection..........

But doesnt that make God cruel? Creating a very stupid person, then putting him on hell after creating him to be stupid?

Before making judgment on God first let us observe why people are stupid AND NOT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, FOR ALMOST ANYTHING WHEN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT BECOMES AN ERROR...People are stupid for a reason. The fact here is, stupidity exist for pleasure/comfort sake...

There is no suffering man and at the same time stupid, for if this kind of person exist, I will DENOUNCE MY FAITH AND WILL NEVER AGAIN SPEAK OF THE NAME OF GOD, FOR GOD MUST BE SO CRUEL AND I WILL BE ATHEIST RIGHT NOW, I PROMISE...But thats not the truth...

the fact is, the reason why people are stupid, is either for money, women, attention, COMFORT, in summary, people are stupid for pleasure sake (either that pleasure and comfort comes in the role of molesting kids, stealing other ppl's property, etc. have been corrected, but doesnt want to admit he/she is wrong bcuz of the pleasure it brings, rationalizing his act). And if they live throughout their life being stupid (always being in pleasure and self-centered) then I can confidently say that it is "justice" for this kind of person to enter hell, for this person experienced pleasure already without caring how he earns it, he may earn it through killing his enemy, cheating on his wife, etc.....

Obedient guys are those who are humble, patient, and thoughtfull of others. And stupid people in the other hand are the pridefull, comfort seeker, self centered, impatient, etc....This is a psychological fact, unless of course the person has some form of brain malfunction...........

Like I was saying FROM THE BEGGINING, PEEPS WHO WENT TO HELL DESERVES TO GO TO HELL, AND PEEPS WHO WENT TO HEAVEN DESERVES TO GO TO HEAVEN.

But of course this is just my belief, your belief might be opposite. U might believe that rapist, killers, and child molesters doesnt deserve to be locked out for all eternity, but deserves to be released to harm the world again, or whatever your belief maybe...And if God contradicts your belief, then you call him cruel, and therefore in your world, God may indeed be cruel, thats fine with me, thats your distorted view (my opinion)....

So next time someone says "God isn't perfect, he makes mistakes because he created evil man.."

Answer them this.."Why do you think hell exist?"..........Hell exist for evil man, and evil man deserves to dwell in hell (my personal belief, as your belief could be opposite, u could b thinking that 9 months old babies are not humans but a blob of tissue, while i believe its a lie and that 9 month old babies are humans..)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Irrelevant. I have never killed nor raped anybody. I live my life according to the Golden Rule. But according to your religion, I am going to be tortured in Hell for all of eternity, because Adam and Eve did something naughty, and because I am not convinced by the unreliable evidence that your God exists.

My religion says those who does not have pity for the starving, hungry, clothless, lonely people are going to hell whether they claim to love God or not, for whatever u do to the least of my brothers you do unto God....

Whether you come in a form of buddhism, the word must be spread, and that word is the beatitudes and virtues (commandments). And such judgment applies whether your gentile or jew, romans or asians, claim to believe in God or not.......(We can get into detail with this later...)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

First of all, the Bible does not just condemn liars killers and rapists to Hell. In fact, it does not condemn them to Hell at all. Have you ever read the Bible? What determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell is whether you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins. According to the Bible everybody, even a newborn infant, "deserves" Hell. Only the forgiveness of Jesus can save you.

Second, I define "cruel" to be causing pain for no purpose.

Your right, sinners are not condemned, but the word "Jesus" is deeper than a white man in white suit. Jesus is the "Word", and the word is spirit, and God is spirit. So it comes down to the virtues and morality we must obey, and this "words" are not limited to those who claim to be christian, or who understands christianity....

I already mentioned the purpose of hell, but if your "stubborn" and say that there is NO purpose, then your entitled to yuor stupidity....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


Get real. The torment Jesus received in the Bible is nothing compared to what people have been subjected to by so-called Christians for not believing. The tortures used by the Church to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity make the Crucifixion look like a walk in the park.

He was beaten...Scourged, left in prison with no food or water(except when given gall to drink..) Was abandoned by his only friends (apostles), was hated, spit at and to think about it HE WAS IN THE BEGGINING WITH THE WORLD, AND ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, but the world rejected him...

Crucified, was left to bleed to death..A SLOW DEATH........

I rather be fed by lions, or burned to death, than to endure the torture of Jesus, a special torture by the romans for he was considered to be a blasphemer, claiming to be God when there is only one God.....




Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

No, nothing like it. The notion that people who haven't been fortunate enough to have heard the word of Jesus won't go to Hell for not believing, is a fairly recent concept, invented to try to reconcile the modern belief that people should not be punished for things that they had no control over, with the fact that the Bible clearly states that they should. It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

Then your wrong, because the bible does states about someone if not knowing sin cannot be accountable for the act unless they are aware their act is a sin. It was written by St. Paul (Im not sure) and he is an example for that. He was a former christian killer, then saw the light and was converted.........

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


Reliable evidence. Confirmable objective facts from which the existence of God can be logically deduced. Can you provide any argument for believing in your God that could not just as easily be applied to some other God?



Maybe, but I don't believe that Jesus ever really lived. I don't believe in God, Satan, Heaven, or Hell. And according to the Bible which is the only source of information about these things, I am an evil person for this, and I will burn for all of eternity because of it, while somebody who lives their life in the most evil and depraved ways you can imagine, but who repents at the last minute before he dies, will go to Heaven.


Dr. Stupid


I see what you mean, you dont believe Jesus even existed....But can you prove King Henry exist?

[Edwin]

There is no suffering man and at the same time stupid, for if this kind of person exist, I will DENOUNCE MY FAITH AND WILL NEVER AGAIN SPEAK OF THE NAME OF GOD, FOR GOD MUST BE SO CRUEL AND I WILL BE ATHEIST RIGHT NOW, I PROMISE...But thats not the truth..

What about the drunk driver who's lying in hospital?
What about people living in war-torn countries (some of them must be stupid, just as some people are stupid in every otehr country)?

Or are your definitions of suffering and stupid different from mine?

[Darat]

Originally posted by muscleman

...snip...

God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything...

...snip...

God is all three, (omnipresent as well just to add)......

...snip...

Theres a difference between God "capable" of doing everything and anything. And God doing anything and everything. God is capable of breaking the laws of his creation, but he wont, because God keeps his promise...I said this before and I say this again...

...snip...


So you are saying that your God is limited, that he cannot do everything. (In other words your answer to my question is that there are “rocks” God couldn’t lift.)

On a more practical level can you tell me where your evidence is for the contention that God has promised never to break the “laws of his creation”?

I am assuming you believe this from your reading of one of the many Christian bibles? Can you please quote the scripture or give me the references to the passages from the Bible that support your statement? I can’t think of any off-hand.

[MRC_Hans]

Hello, Muscleman, and welcome on this sceptic's board. I think you will find debaters here that can match you. We are rather tolerant to name-calling, but, on the other hand, it wont get you anywhere. If you're into serious debate, I suggest you shorten your posts, and concentrate on one argument at the time. Thats the best way to make people take you seriously. My advice is: Dont start any flame-wars, we have some people here that can eat you for breakfast in that particular discipline, heheh.

But for a serious and dedicated debater, there is an interesting time to be had here.

Hans

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Edwin


What about the drunk driver who's lying in hospital?
What about people living in war-torn countries (some of them must be stupid, just as some people are stupid in every otehr country)?

Or are your definitions of suffering and stupid different from mine?

If some drunk driver is lying in the hospital, whos an atheist because thats how he was brought out, (and his knowledge have NOT been challenged.) Suffering...This man is NOT "stupid" or as the bible put it "stiff necked"...

You can only be stupid if yur arguments have been debunked somany times, and you obviously know your wrong, someone this stupid cannot be in the state of suffering, for if they continue to be stupid like this, they must be doing it for "comfort" sake or pleasure sake. That is just human psychology...

Unless of course you can prove to me that a extremely stupid guy suffering in the hospital like that exist, then I will become an atheist (Make sure that the guy isnt retarded or something..) Prove to me this person exist, document his life, historically....Who is this person? Make any example. To my own knowledge, again, someone this stupid and in denial is doing it for a cause, and that cause is pleasure or comfort (whatever the pleasure comes in, either some adult video game, etc. whatever.)

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Darat


So you are saying that your God is limited, that he cannot do everything. (In other words your answer to my question is that there are “rocks” God couldn’t lift.)

On a more practical level can you tell me where your evidence is for the contention that God has promised never to break the “laws of his creation”?

I am assuming you believe this from your reading of one of the many Christian bibles? Can you please quote the scripture or give me the references to the passages from the Bible that support your statement? I can’t think of any off-hand.

If u guys didnt get my argument, youll probably think Im stupid, you have to look deeper into it to understand it..

God made a covenant with man, he created them in his image. And God is eternal.. Covenant is a promise and "I believe" that the bible did state that he cannot break a covenant (but ill have to ask one of my bible expert friends...Ill get back with u into this...)..

I just want to clarify what I was saying earlier...To know means to think, for instance.. If you heard in the tv. "If it doesnt get all over the place it doesnt belong in your face", maybe you didnt think of that knowledge, but someone did.
To know means to think..Implying that God is all knowing is implying that God is all thinking, for that is what it means in order to know... And to think is to change mind, ideas, and thoughts.. THATS A REALITY CHECK...

So to assume that since God is all knowing, therefore he cannot "think and change his mind", is stupid and taking things out of context... The fact is God is all knowing, and to know means to think, in summary, God is all judgment, all thinking, all learning, and all knowing, for we are created in the image of God and DONT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT...

We are like God, but we are not God, so dont say also we can be all knowing, we can only know. If God created human life, humans can only create "like" human life, for instance, intelligent robots (limited but were capable)......

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent. But, of course, not all theists believe in an omniscient God, and not all of those that do believe in conceptions of free-will that are incompatible with fatalism.



Of course it doesn't. How could it conceivably do so? Libertarian free will is perfectly compatible with an omniscient God. It's people who hold that the physical world is closed who can't believe in free will.



I don't know of anybody who would cite that as their reason for being an atheist, though. What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs.


I know of no inconsistancies.




Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.



Absolutely. if there is an afterlife we to a large extent determine our own fates.



Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.



Well that argument doesn't follow. You forget that God could create us with free will.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Darat


Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?

Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.

[muscleman]

MRC Hans, I am looking for a serious debate..

And there is only one topic here, lets not go off track. The topic is freewill and omniscience does co-exist. But its 2 different concepts..

Ill use a primitive analogy. Picture you walking in a parade u dont know whats ahead of you, and God being above, he sees everything below and ahead of you, not that its the future to God, but to us, it is the future, God is "Omnipresent" (get the idea)...

And the topic also goes further to say it is illogic to claim that since God is omniscient (all knowing), therefore he cant think, or change his mind. Thats plain stupid...

First and foremost, what do you mean by "All"? All of what? Knowing what? All knowing of human thoughts? If you look at it in that limited perspective, then God is all knowing and cannot change his mind (for God dont learn anything from you and me.)
There is no limit to knowledge. To say "God knows everything" is to say there is limit to knowledge. God doesnt know everything because there is no such thing as everything, the word "everything" implies limit....

There is no limit to size, or shape, or thought, etc. You can never learn enough, you can never think enough, and u can never know enough. God is all learning, and all knowing, and all thinking (and this imp[lies he change his mind) for that is what being "alive" means, in motion........Lets stick to this subject, the point is, ONLY IGNORANT KIDS FALL FOR THE "OMNISCIENCE/FREEWILL ARGUMENT" THEREFORE AN ALL KNOWING GOD DONT EXIST..

Thats a very old, primitive DEBUNKED statement.........
-------------------------------------------------


edited= Oh yeah and I almost forgot.. Can God create a rock he cannot lift?

This is a very primitive question.. Nothing is impossible with God..
Just because God "can" break a promise, it doesnt mean He "will" break a promise...

Just because God created a huge rock, it doesnt mean he have to lift it, he can if he wills, he dont if he wills not to. GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM, BUT HE DOES WHAT HE WILLS........

[MRC_Hans]

I think the problem is that it is difficult to understand omniscience. But obviously God can grant us free will. This means that he decides to respect our choice and our part in forming the future.

It is a paradox how the future can be changable, yet known (to God), but this paradox is the same whether we or God makes a decision.

The way I see it, God is outside time; for God time is just another dimension and time, as well as the other dimensions, can be shaped. To us, shaping time is to decide the future. Obviously God can grant us right to shape part of time.

Hans

[Darat]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.

Ian I have to disagree, to an extent. Depending on your definition of "omnipotent" it does; a standard dictionary definition of "omnipotent" is:

Encarta Dictionary

all-powerful: possessing complete, unlimited, or universal power and authority



It is an unlimited power, no conditionals i.e. "only logically possible".

The reason I asked the the question is that I was trying to see if there was some common ground where I could discuss, with muscleman, his statements.

If, as some of the Christians I know, muscleman stated that his God was not bounded or limited in any way what-so-ever i.e. can "do" the logically impossible, then I know I cannot have a discussion.

[Darat]

muscleman - some of this refers to the post I made to Ian's comment.

I can't find anywhere within the Bible that states the Christian God is limited in his omnipotence, indeed in Matthew we have an explicate comment from Jesus that God is above the human "impossible":

Matthew 19:26

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


And again in Jeremiah

Jeremiah 32:17

"Ah, Sovereign LORD , you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.


Since all things are possible to this God your God can do evil acts, break his promises and indeed be unfair. Otherwise it would seem the words of the bible are wrong!

Are you saying that the Bible is wrong in what it says about God and that there are some things "impossible" or "too hard" for God?

(And yes I am waiting for someone like PS or Christian to come along and slam me for these posts... ;) )

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by muscleman


If u guys didnt get my argument, youll probably think Im stupid, you have to look deeper into it to understand it..

God made a covenant with man, he created them in his image. And God is eternal.. Covenant is a promise and "I believe" that the bible did state that he cannot break a covenant (but ill have to ask one of my bible expert friends...Ill get back with u into this...)..



Your evidence of this is...where? Not the Bible, that's not a trustworthy source.


I just want to clarify what I was saying earlier...To know means to think, for instance.. If you heard in the tv. "If it doesnt get all over the place it doesnt belong in your face", maybe you didnt think of that knowledge, but someone did.
To know means to think..Implying that God is all knowing is implying that God is all thinking, for that is what it means in order to know... And to think is to change mind, ideas, and thoughts.. THATS A REALITY CHECK...

If God is all-perfect... why would he CHANGE his mind?



So to assume that since God is all knowing, therefore he cannot "think and change his mind", is stupid and taking things out of context... The fact is God is all knowing, and to know means to think, in summary, God is all judgment, all thinking, all learning, and all knowing, for we are created in the image of God and DONT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT...

But if he knows EVERYTHING, then he should know the best possible solutions, should he not?


We are like God, but we are not God, so dont say also we can be all knowing, we can only know. If God created human life, humans can only create "like" human life, for instance, intelligent robots (limited but were capable)......

You have no evidence of this, nothing at all.

Why can't human scientists eventually create life in a lab in the future?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Darat

II
Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ian I have to disagree, to an extent. Depending on your definition of "omnipotent" it does; a standard dictionary definition of "omnipotent" is:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encarta Dictionary

all-powerful: possessing complete, unlimited, or universal power and authority


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is an unlimited power, no conditionals i.e. "only logically possible".



It is without utterly without any meaning to be able to do that which is logically impossible. The idea of lifting a rock so heavy that an omnipotent God cannot lift it, has no more meaning or sense than God making colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

[Edwin]

Originally posted by muscleman
(Make sure that the guy isnt retarded or something..)

Yes, we use different definitions of stupid.

Surely though, you believe that:
1. People who are stupid according to your definition exist
2. Life for these people is not perfect, just as for everyone else
3. Some stupid people are suffering (stupidity does not give a perfect immune system, for example)

[Darat]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


It is without utterly without any meaning to be able to do that which is logically impossible. The idea of lifting a rock so heavy that an omnipotent God cannot lift it, has no more meaning or sense than God making colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

You only say this because you have a belief that logic "IS", some Christians I know don't share your faith in logic.

They state quite categorically that God is "beyond logic", that he can do the logically impossible.

I would say that muscleman believes as some of my Christian friends do. This is what he said:


Just because God created a huge rock, it doesnt mean he have to lift it, he can if he wills, he dont if he wills not to. GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM, BUT HE DOES WHAT HE WILLS........


As you can see he sees no problem with his belief and faith causing a “paradox” because one doesn’t exist for him –only the believer in logic sees a paradox.



(PS - I wasn't intending to discuss your faith and belief in logic but if you'd like we can discuss it in another thread - I don't want to push this thread further off-topic.)

[Legallee Insane]

Alright, so from what I got out of muscleman's first post was that he is going to prove to us that the "free will" arguement is falsible. And he has gone about doing this by stating many obscure things that fail to proove his point.

I believe the following smiley depicts my reaction to his post perfectly.

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/lachen/lachen014.gif

[Underemployed]

Where do you guys get your custom smilies from? :confused:

"GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM"

Let's have another look at that, because at first sight it looks a little confusing:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

I think we might need to go over that again just to make sure:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

But of course I might be taking these "OUT OF CONTEXT"

[muscleman]

Darat, since when did I ever say that God is limited? I said God is unlimited...And once again, God "can" break His promise, but it doesnt mean He "will" break his promise..

Just because I can kill 30 men, it doesnt mean I will..And when I wont, it doesnt mean I cant....

How old are you? I dont mean to offend u, but this is what I mean, its brain like yours I dont want to spend my time on, I need someone with common sense, this is the 2nd time I posted this.....

Originally posted by Dark Cobra


Your evidence of this is...where? Not the Bible, that's not a trustworthy source.

The bible is NOT a trustworthy source? Explain. Do u take the bible as a book to understanding "How" we exist, or do u take it as "why" we exist? Do u use the bible as a scientific reference? Do u find any moral contradictories in the bible? I can deal with these for this is my expertise, but as of now lets stick to the subject which is omniscience/freewill, the bible contains NO free moral errors, or any contradiction unless things are TAKEN out of context...(lets use another post for this..)

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

If God is all-perfect... why would he CHANGE his mind?

U first have to understand what the christianity means when implying "perfection" in this subject...

You and I can be perfect..But we do change minds, and thoughts..

Perfection has nothing to do with judgment, thoughts, or changing mind...Perfection has more to do of "Order". In other words, solutions to every problems...Or answers to every question..A question in itself isnt complete without an answer to it, then this becomes perfect and order...

We are created in the image of God, we can be perfect in the sight of God, and even before then u are already perfect, perfect for the ways of the world (We always find solutions to our problems, whether the solutions is good or bad, u may cry it out, keep it in and feel the pain, or kill yur enemy, bottom line WE always have solution) Thus making us perfect, either for serving the world, or God....There is no in between, either ur in a bad side, or in a good side...Your judgment is based upon your virtues, and even if yur half good half evil, a place called purgatory is a solution for you as well...

Let the man who have ears hear the truth...........


Originally posted by Dark Cobra

But if he knows EVERYTHING, then he should know the best possible solutions, should he not?

Of course......Again, life is an order....

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

You have no evidence of this, nothing at all.

This is another topic....

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

Why can't human scientists eventually create life in a lab in the future?

Good luck with yur psychic prediction.....

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Underemployed
Where do you guys get your custom smilies from? :confused:

"GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM"

Let's have another look at that, because at first sight it looks a little confusing:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

I think we might need to go over that again just to make sure:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

But of course I might be taking these "OUT OF CONTEXT"

Of course u took it out of context..Didnt u see me type "He can if he wills, or he cant if he wills not to"..

God makes a promise, he "DECIDED" not to break his promise, therefore by his DECISION, he cant break a promise... He can if he DECIDE he will otherwise, but he DECIDED NOT to, therefore God cant by DECISION...

Understand?

[Hazelip]

Originally posted by muscleman

He can if he DECIDE he will otherwise, but he DECIDED NOT to, therefore God cant by DECISION...

Understand?

It must be nice to know the mind of God.

The question was if he can do it or not. The question was not what did he decide (how do you know that, anyway?) to do.

[Underemployed]

Your ideas of 'perfection', 'order' and of things being balanced out by opposing forces is very interesting. I like them! Totally out of place in Christian teachings though.

You say that 'perfection' is that which is fit for the purpose? You do see that this is utterly opposed to the idea of 'goodness' put forth by the Bible, yes?

[c4ts]

There are still a lot of problems problems with this:

1. God is omniscient as the result of His omnipotent omnipresence
- As the result of being everywhere (which comes from His ability to do anything), God is incapable of error, because He knows everything that is, was, and will be. Although there is biblical evidence to the contrary, the Bible may be counted as heresay or conjecture.
2. God is perfect
- Because God is incapable of error, He must be everything a god should be.
3. God created man
- Despite a complete lack of evidence, we can still allow this as the other two also lacked evidence
4. God gave man free will
- This is problematic because it seems free will runs contrary to omniscience and perfection.
5. Man can make the wrong choice, therefore free will and lack of omniscience makes man imperfect
- This is the problem. God has no reason to make mistakes because he is omniscient, and God will not make mistakes if he is everything a God should be. Also, since He is perfect, he has no reason to create people destined to suffer for eternity, nor would he ever do such a thing if He is everything a God should be. Either God is imperfect, or God is not omniscient. But, perfection is the result of omniscience, and therefore omniscience will cause perfection (circular reasoning?). So God cannot be omniscient without being perfect, and God cannot be perfect without omniscience.
6. To argue against free will is contradictory
- If you want to argue against free will, that is your decision, and to make a decision requires free will. Opinion (meaning what you are brought up to believe, such as "democracy is good" if you were raised in America) may seem to go against this, but it can be rejected by actual knowledge or by willpower alone.
7. God's reward and punishment system is contradictory of Himself
- A man without free will is only subject to external forces, therefore no act is voluntary. But virtue, which consists of voluntary acts, is praised, whereas acts under external influences are dismissed or ignored. Without free will, virtue would only exist as either an illusion or mistake, but mistakes are impossible in a determenistic universe, and trickery (illusion) is not the way of a perfect god. A perfect and omnipotent creator is the ultimate external force which would render all acts involuntary. Yet at the same time, God supposedly rewards virtue and punishes excess, both of which are acts of volition. Again, this is contradictory to the first two points.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Hazelip


It must be nice to know the mind of God.

The question was if he can do it or not. The question was not what did he decide (how do you know that, anyway?) to do.

Your wrong, again when the topic is posted concerning "breaking a promise" the MAIN point is CAN God break a promise HE DECIDED TO MAKE, or can he NOT break a promise He decided to make...

Again, if God decided He can, then he can. If God decided He cant, then he cant..

It is like me, if I decided I can bench 400 lbs, then I can in due time (because I will work hard to obtain the strength.) But if I decided I cant, then I cant (because I wont work hard to obtain the muscles.
Or analogy is if I decided I cant talk back to my mom when she corrects me, then I cant by decision. But of course this is just an analogy, and Im not God, I have limits and may talk back to my mother...

And how do I know God decided not to break his covenant (promise)? Theres a book called "bible", the word of God.....I hope I wont have to explain this again, you obviously got debunked on this topic...

Originally posted by Hazelip

Your ideas of 'perfection', 'order' and of things being balanced out by opposing forces is very interesting. I like them! Totally out of place in Christian teachings though.
I am a catechist teacher, high school students come to me and ask questions, atheists or not, there are many, and I have answered so far all questions and they are in awe of the knowledge given to them...I should know what christianity teaches or not....

Originally posted by Hazelip

You say that 'perfection' is that which is fit for the purpose? You do see that this is utterly opposed to the idea of 'goodness' put forth by the Bible, yes?

I see no contradiction, if u do see any. Post them, and I will deal with it......

[Loki]

Muscleman,

If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?
Indeed - why?

1. Person 'X' will rape and kill person 'Y' (a 3 year old child) in the year 2007;
2. God knows this;
3. Person 'X' deserves Hell;
4. Person 'Y' would have grown into a "kind and generous" person, and therefore deserves a place in heaven.

What purpose does it serve to allow this act to occur? Why not just send 'X' to hell, and 'Y' to Heaven? Person 'Y' hasn't even been born yet, but god already knows both their death (a painful murder) and their ultimate destination (heaven). In why is anything served by allowing the "play" to unfold? Why bother to have person 'Y' born?

Does god ever 'intervene' to prevent pain and suffering? Does god ever 'intervene' to create pain and suffering?

People are not accountable for the sin they commited if they didnt know it is wrong to begin with "Those who does not know sin does not commit sin".
So you agree that the easiest way to get everyone into heaven is to burn all bibles and remove all traces of god's commandments? Afterall, if we were unaware of what constitutes 'sin' we'd all be saved no matter what we did! Let's get started - burn your bible today, and never mention anything from that book ever again.

[Legallee Insane]

Underemployed:
Where do you guys get your custom smilies from?:confused:
www.clicksmilies.com

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/starwars/starwars023.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/party/party017.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/aktion074.gif

[Loki]

Muscleman,

Theres a book called "bible", the word of God.....
Actually, there are many books called the bible", and they are not precisely the same. To begin with, are you working from the Catholic or Protestant canon (and why)?

What do you think of the Quran? Is it the word of God? If not, who wrote it (or perhaps "inspired" it), and why? What facts make the bible's claim to be "the word of god" valid, and the Quran's similar claim invalid? How did you arrive at these facts?

[Stimpson J. Cat]

muscleman,

How so? Do you have any argument to back that up? I know a lot of very intelligent Theists who would disagree with you on that point..
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God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything...

Why not?

Nor is it intended to. The entire point is to point out the inconsistency of a God that is all-knowing and omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. If you do not believe that GOd is all three, then these arguments clearly are not applicable to your conception of God.
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God is all three, (omnipresent as well just to add)......

Can you explain how the concept of omnibenevolence is even meaningful, when different people disagree on what is "good" and what is "evil"? Saying that God is omnibenevolent ends up meaning nothing more than that you define "good" to mean "whatever God is". It renders the whole concept of good and evil meaningless.

1) Why torture them for all eternity? What purpose does that serve? I realize that some religions hold that Hell is just separation from god, but (a) that isn't what the Bible says, and (b) the argument that it is wrong to condemn people to Hell is not applicable to such a belief system.

2) Why not just destroy them?
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Theres a difference between God "capable" of doing everything and anything. And God doing anything and everything. God is capable of breaking the laws of his creation, but he wont, because God keeps his promise...I said this before and I say this again...

God is living, you and I are created in his image. We change minds, so does God. We can be perfect when we find our ways, as God is perfect...

Changing mind is part of knowing things..Thats how we solve ideas or thoughts, by using our judgment, we can change ideas and at the end the truth awaits. We are created in the image of God, God have solutions to EVERY SINGLE DETAIL HE HAS DONE, from stars death (blackhole;recycled) to human psychology. Being all knowing implies "all judgment", in other words "all thinking".

Once again theres a difference between changing mind, and breaking promise....

And once again, you have completely ignored my question. Nothing you just said has any relevance whatsoever to my questions.

Did you just say that there is something that God cannot do? Doesn't that contradict your above statement that God cannot be limited?

And how does an all-knowing God change his mind, anyway? Certainly he would know that he is just going to change his mind later?
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Aforementioned... But illl type it again, theres a difference between "capable" of doing anything and everything, and DOING anything and everything...

Just because I am capable of slaughtering 20 guys in my liftime, it doesnt mean I will do it.......I am entitled to use human analogy, for the claim is we are created in the image of God (just to add that)...

OK. But this still doesn't address the issue of why such an all-powerful Deity would choose to torture people for simply being the way he created them. I could see separating them from the good people, or even destroying them, but why torture them? What's the point?

1) This doesn't address my point at all.

2) You cannot reasonably claim that God has instructed us to ask for forgiveness, because He has not done so in a way that can be reasonably recognized as such. Not only has only a small fraction of the Human population ever received this "message", but even if we assume that the Bible is truth, the message has been given in such a way that we cannot reliably know that it is legitimate. There is no more evidence that the Bible is the truth, then for any other ancient mythology.
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I realized that wont answer your question, so I typed this few minutes ago to annihilate your post...

Isnt it God is responsible as well if your really stupid and do wrong anyways?

Yes he is, thats why a stupid person in itself is wrong, but existence of "hell" is justice and "order" ( perfection)...You cant take things out of context...

Thats why if you commit wrong, and your aware of your wrong, repent and ask for forgiveness (if today u hear my words, harden not yur hearts), otherwise if you continue to be stupid, then you will enter hell. (FOR NONE KNOWS WHAT IS AHEAD OF US BUT GOD ALONE..).

What if I am not aware of my wrong? Since I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology, I don't know whether the things the Bible says are wrong, are or not. I can only rely on my own code of morality, which disagrees on many points with the Bible. That means that if the bible is true, I will go to Hell, even though I had no way of knowing that what I was doing was wrong.

And what about all those people who aren't exposed to Christianity? Why do they all go to Hell?

If Go really wants us to behave a certain way, why not just come straight out and tell us? Why do it through some obscure self-contradictory book, that most of the population will never see, and that many of those who do see it, will reasonably doubt its validity?

And once again God is also responsible for a very stupid person who went to hell, but again a stupid person in itself is a mistake, thats why hell exist for justice sake; perfection and order. In summary God didnt made a mistake, if hell didnt exist, then God made a mistake, but because hell exist for a stupid person, then thats justice and order....

Like I said above, if Hell was just removal from God, or obliteration, I could buy that, but that isn't what the Bible says.

Just as a reciever alone isnt order (may be a mistake) but with speakers, it bcomes order and perfection..........

But doesnt that make God cruel? Creating a very stupid person, then putting him on hell after creating him to be stupid?

Before making judgment on God first let us observe why people are stupid AND NOT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, FOR ALMOST ANYTHING WHEN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT BECOMES AN ERROR...People are stupid for a reason. The fact here is, stupidity exist for pleasure/comfort sake...

You keep talking about stupidity. I am not stupid. Most of the non-Christians I know are not stupid. But according to your Bible, they are all going to Hell. Furthermore, the reason your Bible claims I am going to Hell is for my lack of belief. This has nothing to do with comfort, pleasure, or greed. It has to do with the simple lack of reliable evidence.

There is no suffering man and at the same time stupid, for if this kind of person exist, I will DENOUNCE MY FAITH AND WILL NEVER AGAIN SPEAK OF THE NAME OF GOD, FOR GOD MUST BE SO CRUEL AND I WILL BE ATHEIST RIGHT NOW, I PROMISE...But thats not the truth...

Huh? Are you claiming that stupid people don't suffer? What on Earth are you trying to say here?

By the way, the cruelty of God is neither a reason to believe, or disbelieve. If the only reason you believe in your conception of God, is because you think He is good, then you are being very irrational. And if it is not, then it would be irrational of you to abandon that belief just because you find out he is cruel.

the fact is, the reason why people are stupid, is either for money, women, attention, COMFORT, in summary, people are stupid for pleasure sake (either that pleasure and comfort comes in the role of molesting kids, stealing other ppl's property, etc. have been corrected, but doesnt want to admit he/she is wrong bcuz of the pleasure it brings, rationalizing his act). And if they live throughout their life being stupid (always being in pleasure and self-centered) then I can confidently say that it is "justice" for this kind of person to enter hell, for this person experienced pleasure already without caring how he earns it, he may earn it through killing his enemy, cheating on his wife, etc.....

Tell me, do you believe non-Christians go to Hell, or not? If so, the above is utter nonsense. If not, then you need to read the Bible sometime, because whatever it is you believe, it didn't come from there.

Obedient guys are those who are humble, patient, and thoughtfull of others. And stupid people in the other hand are the pridefull, comfort seeker, self centered, impatient, etc....This is a psychological fact, unless of course the person has some form of brain malfunction...........

So, are you saying that the mentally ill don't go to Hell, even if they don't believe in Jesus?

Like I was saying FROM THE BEGGINING, PEEPS WHO WENT TO HELL DESERVES TO GO TO HELL, AND PEEPS WHO WENT TO HEAVEN DESERVES TO GO TO HEAVEN.

And like I said, it is not possible for any human being to deserve Hell, as it is described in the Bible. Infinite punishment for a finite transgression is necessarily unjust.

But of course this is just my belief, your belief might be opposite. U might believe that rapist, killers, and child molesters doesnt deserve to be locked out for all eternity, but deserves to be released to harm the world again, or whatever your belief maybe...And if God contradicts your belief, then you call him cruel, and therefore in your world, God may indeed be cruel, thats fine with me, thats your distorted view (my opinion)....

Once again, what you are saying bears no resemblance to Christianity. According to the Bible, Heaven is loaded with rapists, killers, and child molesters. As long as they repent and accept Jesus, they get to go to Heaven. Meanwhile a decent selfless person, who just happens to be a Buddhist (for example), suffers eternal torment in Hell for not being lucky enough to be brainwashed into Christianity before he learns how to think critically.

So next time someone says "God isn't perfect, he makes mistakes because he created evil man.."

Answer them this.."Why do you think hell exist?"..........Hell exist for evil man, and evil man deserves to dwell in hell (my personal belief, as your belief could be opposite, u could b thinking that 9 months old babies are not humans but a blob of tissue, while i believe its a lie and that 9 month old babies are humans..)

Boy, you love equivocating, don't you? I guess it is easier for you to rationalize your irrational beliefs if you convince yourself that everybody who doesn't believe in your religion is a baby murdering, child-molesting, lying, thieving, murdering abortionist.

Unfortunately, most of them are just ordinary decent folk who just happen to believe a different set of mythology than you do (or none at all).

Irrelevant. I have never killed nor raped anybody. I live my life according to the Golden Rule. But according to your religion, I am going to be tortured in Hell for all of eternity, because Adam and Eve did something naughty, and because I am not convinced by the unreliable evidence that your God exists.
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My religion says those who does not have pity for the starving, hungry, clothless, lonely people are going to hell whether they claim to love God or not, for whatever u do to the least of my brothers you do unto God....

Irrelevant.

Whether you come in a form of buddhism, the word must be spread, and that word is the beatitudes and virtues (commandments).

Buddhists don't have the same commandments as Christians.

And such judgment applies whether your gentile or jew, romans or asians, claim to believe in God or not.......(We can get into detail with this later...)

Have you ever read the Bible at all? Do you have any idea what it actually says?

First of all, the Bible does not just condemn liars killers and rapists to Hell. In fact, it does not condemn them to Hell at all. Have you ever read the Bible? What determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell is whether you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins. According to the Bible everybody, even a newborn infant, "deserves" Hell. Only the forgiveness of Jesus can save you.

Second, I define "cruel" to be causing pain for no purpose.
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Your right, sinners are not condemned, but the word "Jesus" is deeper than a white man in white suit. Jesus is the "Word", and the word is spirit, and God is spirit. So it comes down to the virtues and morality we must obey, and this "words" are not limited to those who claim to be christian, or who understands christianity....

According to the Bible, it is. I hate to shatter your illusions, but it is clear that whoever you learned about Christianity from was feeding you a load of crap. According to the Bible, the only way into Heaven is through belief in Jesus.

I already mentioned the purpose of hell, but if your "stubborn" and say that there is NO purpose, then your entitled to yuor stupidity....

Look, I hate to be rude, but this stupidity crap is starting to really piss me off. Just because somebody disagrees with your beliefs, does not make them stupid. It just so happens that the majority of the World's population doesn't subscribe to your religious beliefs. Are they all stupid? Heck, even most Christians don't buy what you are saying.

Get real. The torment Jesus received in the Bible is nothing compared to what people have been subjected to by so-called Christians for not believing. The tortures used by the Church to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity make the Crucifixion look like a walk in the park.
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He was beaten...Scourged, left in prison with no food or water(except when given gall to drink..) Was abandoned by his only friends (apostles), was hated, spit at and to think about it HE WAS IN THE BEGGINING WITH THE WORLD, AND ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, but the world rejected him...

Crucified, was left to bleed to death..A SLOW DEATH........

I rather be fed by lions, or burned to death, than to endure the torture of Jesus, a special torture by the romans for he was considered to be a blasphemer, claiming to be God when there is only one God.....

Your ignorance of the Bible is showing again. When people were crucified, they were left to suffocate slowly. Jesus was stabbed with a sword, causing him to die much more quickly, and less painfully, then even an ordinary crucifixion victim.

Your ignorance of History is also showing. Stuff was done to people that make everything you described above sound good in comparison. For example, anal impaling comes to mind.

No, nothing like it. The notion that people who haven't been fortunate enough to have heard the word of Jesus won't go to Hell for not believing, is a fairly recent concept, invented to try to reconcile the modern belief that people should not be punished for things that they had no control over, with the fact that the Bible clearly states that they should. It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.
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Then your wrong, because the bible does states about someone if not knowing sin cannot be accountable for the act unless they are aware their act is a sin. It was written by St. Paul (Im not sure) and he is an example for that. He was a former christian killer, then saw the light and was converted.........

Irrelevant, because as I already pointed out, it is not your sins that get you sent to Hell. It is all a question of whether you ask for forgiveness from Jesus or not. According to the Bible, we are all doomed to Hell for the original sin, regardless of our actions in life. Even if we never commit another sin a long as we live, if we don't ask Jesus for forgiveness for original sin, we go to Hell.

I see what you mean, you dont believe Jesus even existed....But can you prove King Henry exist?

Yes. There is substantial reliable evidence that several king Henrys existed. There is absolutely no reliable evidence for God, Jesus, Moses, or any of the other magical characters in the Bible.


Ian,

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.
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Well that argument doesn't follow. You forget that God could create us with free will.

If that God is all-knowing, then he knew when he created you what your choices would be, free-will or not. And if he is all-powerful, then he created you the way you are specifically so that you would make those choices. In that type of a scenario, your free-will only makes a difference to you. It doesn't make any difference to God, nor does it absolve him of his responsibility for your decisions, since it was ultimately his decision for you to make those decisions.

The idea that you possess free-will in such a way that your actions are not predetermined when God creates you, is absolutely contradictory to the idea that God is all-knowing and all-powerful.

Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?
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Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.

Keep in mind that muscleman said nothing about God being subject to logical constraints. He claimed that God has no limitations whatsoever. I would suggest that you have him clarify whether that includes being limited by logic or not.


Dr. Stupid

[Yahzi]

Musclesforbrains
To me, it is NOT cruel that rapist, liars (abortionist), and killers are locked away for all eternity, ESPECIALLY if they are aware of their act (have been corrected but too stubborn..)
Eternal punishment for a finite act is automatically unjust. Remember the notion, "the punishment shall fit the crime?"

Consider two things:

1) even Hitler does not deserve eternal punishment. Nine million lifetimes, yes. Eternity, no. At some point you have to let go and move forward. You can't hang on to your hate forever or it will posion you.

2) If God ressurects the dead, then how bad could the murder's crime be? Certainly it can't be murder if the victim is still alive...

Evil to some, are good to others
Now you are endorsing relativistic morality? Well, at least that is honest. Good is what God says it is because God is powerful enough to make his definition stick. Ya, that's relativism.

As an athiest and a materialist, I reject relativism. I believe in objective good and morality.

Jesus experienced death, torture, rejection, he endured all the human race endured
Sodomy? Was Jesus sodomized as a ten-year old by his uncle? I know people who where...

Did Jesus spend 7 years in a hole in ground, only being taken out once a day for a beating? Was he so mistreated that he can't lift his left arm above his head anymore? I know senators who were...

Was Jesus forced to chose which of his babies to save, and which to kill? Did Jesus watch his parents and siblings be starved into skeletons, then shoved in an oven when they couldn't work any more? I know Jews who have...

Your sissy-boy of a god got off relatively easy. He didn't suffer: he took the Hollywood tour of suffering. A pinch here, a poke there, oh, look, how I've suffered - there's a fly in my cappicuino!

To assert that Jesus suffered on the cross is to trivialize the astonishing levels of torture inflicted on human beings by other human beings throughout the ages. It demonstrates both your insensitivity and your ignorance.

I rather be fed by lions, or burned to death, than to endure the torture of Jesus, a special torture by the romans for he was considered to be a blasphemer, claiming to be God when there is only one God.....
What? The Romans crucified lots of people. Even the Bible claims they crucified two theives along with Jesus. Doesn't seem all that special, does it now?

And FYI, crucifixation kills by suffocation. Yes, it's relatively slow and painful, but then, being eaten by a lion is so terrifying and painful one doesn't have time for reflection or making pithy last-minute quotes.

Also FYI, the almost certainly didn't crucify Jesus or those two thieves. Crucifiction was reserved for special crimes, to make political points. Which, of course, is why the Jews concocted the tale of crucification: because in their time it was politically significant. Of course, they bungled it by adding in a pair of ordinary thieves, but what do you expect from amateurs?

may not be exact words, but something like it.... Thats your opinion...
:D :D :D

Sorry, just that these two quotes back-to-back left me rolling.

We can be perfect when we find our ways
Now here is some deep, deep misunderstanding of human nature.

No, human beings are not capable of perfection, and requiring them to meet a standard they are physically incapable of is at best cruelty. At worst, it's a cynical ploy to keep them in permanent bondage.

***

I can deal with the spelling and the grammer, but please, learn where the apostrophe key is.

[c4ts]

The Bible does not count as the word of God. There are no words in either testament written by God. The first testament is largely revised versions of Assyrian, Sumerian, and Egyptian myths. The second testament is mostly derived from Plato, Aristotle, and Solon, but presented as arguments in favor of monotheism rather than as philosophy for philosophy's sake.

[Hazelip]

Muscleman, please learn not to attribute any more quotes to me that I did not write. It's very irritating and confusing to all involved in reading and participating in the thread.

[Doctor X]

Oh my. . . .

God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything.

Excellent!

Then, given the existence of [No! Stop him!--Ed.] young children who die of pontine tumors [No!!!!--Ed.] in a particularly vile manner [Those who have only read this about 487 times previously should skip to a more interesting response.--Ed.] which involves progressive loss of control over motor function to the extremities and face, evenually requiring a tracheostomy, though retaining the ability to feel everything and only communicate through eye movements whilst waiting to die of pneumonia or other such truly wonderous final events one can conclude the following:

1. No god exists.
2. A god exists and he is evil.
3. A god exists and he is incompetent.
4. A god exists and his is irrelevant.
5. A god exists and he is a combination of 2-4.

Taketh thine pick. . . .

--J.D.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Ian,


quote:
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Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.
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Well that argument doesn't follow. You forget that God could create us with free will.
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If that God is all-knowing, then he knew when he created you what your choices would be, free-will or not.



Indeed.



And if he is all-powerful, then he created you the way you are specifically so that you would make those choices.



No. God didn't create what we are, or at least not everything of what we are. We determine our own essence. The fact that God knows everything we will ever do is not relevant.



In that type of a scenario, your free-will only makes a difference to you. It doesn't make any difference to God, nor does it absolve him of his responsibility for your decisions, since it was ultimately his decision for you to make those decisions.



No it wasn't his decision. it is our decision.

Not that I believe in such a God. But thought I'd correct your error ;)





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Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?
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Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.
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Keep in mind that muscleman said nothing about God being subject to logical constraints.


I don't care what muscleman says. I haven't even bothered reading his posts. Alarm bells start ringing in my head whenever I see someone posting in uppercase. Just pointing out something that's all.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Doctor X
Oh my. . . .



Excellent!

Then, given the existence of [No! Stop him!--Ed.] young children who die of pontine tumors [No!!!!--Ed.] in a particularly vile manner [Those who have only read this about 487 times previously should skip to a more interesting response.--Ed.] which involves progressive loss of control over motor function to the extremities and face, evenually requiring a tracheostomy, though retaining the ability to feel everything and only communicate through eye movements whilst waiting to die of pneumonia or other such truly wonderous final events one can conclude the following:

1. No god exists.
2. A god exists and he is evil.
3. A god exists and he is incompetent.
4. A god exists and his is irrelevant.
5. A god exists and he is a combination of 2-4.

Taketh thine pick. . . .

--J.D.

That doesn't follow. You think God should have created a Universe where every sentient being is in a state of maximum logically possible "happiness"? Or are you saying that although some evil, or suffering, or lack of happiness is not inconsistant with an omnipotent omnibenevolent "God", the amount of evil which does exist is greater than what such a "God" would allow? If the latter what are your criteria for deciding this?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Legallee Insane

www.clicksmilies.com


Thanks, L.I. Great site. And I have found the perfect one for our new proselytizer.
http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/traurig/traurig023.gif

[evildave]

It's very simple.

Do I need proof not to believe in invisible pink unicorns? Leprechauns who steal lottery tickets and small machine parts?

Nope. I need some proof to entertain the ideas as "real". I have no need to put up unicorn proofing in my yard, or install leprechaun sensors in my workshop. Of course, these are only silly examples, flippantly popped off the top of my head.

Here we have a lot of big organisations competing to have me believe in their own selections of 'divine entity' and 'rules to live by' on the cosmic menu of life, so that they can get money from me and political influence through me, and I'm supposed to swallow their offerings whole without so much as a shred of evidence?

I'm supposed to just have "faith" that their word represents the opinions of a "supreme being", let alone that such a being exists???

Why should I fall for these particular scams when there are so many bridges and national monuments for sale?

Because it's safer to believe? In which one? Vishnu? Krishna? JHVH? Allah? Oden? Zeus? Hera? Saturn? Ra? Bob? Eris? Sparky the Wonder God? (And don't you DARE speak Sparky the Wonder God's name incorrectly!)

I think I'll stick with "I don't know, and I don't care... but I'll just assume you're full of poop, anyway."

[Loki]

Ian,

God didn't create what we are, or at least not everything of what we are. We determine our own essence.
But everything (that's everything) is created by such a god - he set up the "essence factory" that creates human "essences" in their "initial state", he created *all* the environments that interact with "essences" (both physical and non-physical, if you need to differentiate), and he designed the nature of essences. He did all of this knowing fully what the outcomes would be, at all times. The nature of your essence may be a mystery to you, but not to the designer.

Since he created your initial state, all your interactions, and the nature of your essence, in what sense are you exercising "libertarian Free Will" to "determine your own essence"?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
No it wasn't his decision. it is our decision.

Then you agree in this instance, where a decision is made, we are more powerful than God?

[Mephistopheles]

Originally posted by evildave
It's very simple.

Do I need proof not to believe in invisible pink unicorns? Leprechauns who steal lottery tickets and small machine parts?

Nope. I need some proof to entertain the ideas as "real". I have no need to put up unicorn proofing in my yard, or install leprechaun sensors in my workshop.


I agree: This is the crystalline point. Theists have the burden of proof. Muscleman, you have to prove that God exists. If I take your word for that without proof, I'd be guilty of the worst kind of gullibility.

And Muscleman, please don't resort to the fallacious "It's in the Bible" argument; the fact that something is written somewhere proves nothing.

Oh, and you might want to refrain from insulting the intelligence of members of this forum by intimating that they might be young or stupid. You've done this repeatedly. I know that some of them treat your arguments flippantly, but they've dealt with your ilk before: People that spend so much time inventing justifications for their kooky beliefs that they never evaluate their ideas against the template of reality. Go back to square one: what do you really know, and how do you know it?

_________________________

Ye blind guides, which strain at
a gnat, and swallow a camel

Matthew 23:24

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles
[B]

I agree: This is the crystalline point. Theists have the burden of proof.



And as I have said time after time after time, I utterly reject this assertion. It is no good you and other atheists simply supposing this to be true when probably most theists suppose it to be false. No, you need to provide arguments. If you believe that atheism, together with the family of beliefs associated with atheism, are a prima facie more reasonable position to hold than the alternative idea that that there is an ultimate teleological goal to our existence together with its implication of some sort of universal metamind, then let's hear your arguments to that effect.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Tricky
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
No it wasn't his decision. it is our decision.

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Then you agree in this instance, where a decision is made, we are more powerful than God?

No

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Loki

II
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God didn't create what we are, or at least not everything of what we are. We determine our own essence.
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Loki
But everything (that's everything) is created by such a god - he set up the "essence factory" that creates human "essences" in their "initial state",



First of all I don't believe in such a conception of God that we're discussing. But bearing in mind that caveat I would say that we should hold that God does not determine our essence, rather we determine our essences.



he created *all* the environments that interact with "essences" (both physical and non-physical, if you need to differentiate), and he designed the nature of essences.



He designed the nature of essences? What do you mean?



He did all of this knowing fully what the outcomes would be, at all times. The nature of your essence may be a mystery to you, but not to the designer.



Maybe so, but so what?



Since he created your initial state, all your interactions, and the nature of your essence, in what sense are you exercising "libertarian Free Will" to "determine your own essence"?



One could say that God created us without holding the view that he created our initial state if by an initial state you mean our essence. Our essence is what we choose to be. One could hold that God doesn't make us be good, evil or whatever. We determine our own essence, our own actions.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles


I agree: This is the crystalline point. Theists have the burden of proof. Muscleman, you have to prove that God exists. If I take your word for that without proof, I'd be guilty of the worst kind of gullibility.

And he shouldn't try to shift the burden and demand that you prove a negative as though the assertion were positive. I've seen Franko and Jedi Knight do it all the time. It's really annoying and it doesn't get anywhere or prove anything.

[muscleman]

woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......

[Loki]

Ian,

He designed the nature of essences? What do you mean?

Your essence influences (or makes ?) your decisons. How does 'it' operate? Seems there are 4 choices :

1. Strictly deterministic.
2. True Random.
3. Some mix of #1 and #2
4. Unknownable - the manner of operation of the will is not any of the first 3.

You clearly reject #1, and seem unhappy with #2 (and that rules out #3). That only leaves #4, doesn't it?

Well, simply put, you don't know how your 'essence' interacts with your decision making, but the 3-O god does - he designed it.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by muscleman
woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......
That will be interesting to see. So many have come here and claimed proof, and none have been able to deliver. Could it be that you are the one to break the trend? We all wait with bated breath. So far, Stimpson has been countering every one of your points, while you barely address his.

Just a few hints, though, if you wish to be taken seriously.
The caps lock thing is rude. It is the equivalent of shouting. If you cannot make your points without shouting, then your points must not be able to stand on their own.
Stop calling names. Saying people are stupid or childish is the resort of a poor debator. If you can show that a person is foolish, then it will be obvious to everyone, and insults will be unnecessary.
Practice your writing skills. Although bad grammer and spelling do not mean a person is unintelligent, it looks as if the person writing is not thinking clearly. Of course, allowances are made for those for whom English is not a native language, but I get the impression that this is not the case here. I recommend using a program with a spell checker (like Microsoft Word) and typing your posts into a document and checking spelling. Then, simply cut and paste the post. Also, look for subtle things that the spell checker won't catch, like the difference between "your" (belonging to you) and "you're" (you are) as well as there, their and they're. Learn the use of the apostrophe. All of us make mistakes, but when so many are made in such a short time, the reader loses respect for the writer.
Don't count on the Bible carrying much weight here. While full of interesting stuff, there is no evidence that it is divinely inspired. No, we won't take your word for it. No, we won't take anyone else's word for it. Show us some evidence from other sources.
Be humble. A truly wise person knows he is capable of error. The least believable people are those who deny the possibility of being wrong. Virtually all of the atheists here admit that it is possible that there could be a God. Can you admit the possibility that there is not?

[evildave]

Originally posted by muscleman
woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......

Do get back to us. I await your proof of why we should believe in invisible pink unicorns BY DEFAULT.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
muscleman,
Why not?

God is all knowing, all knowing in a sense that everything he created, their beggining, and end, he has control over. It is ABSURD that God will design sub-atomic particles, molecules, etc. and not know how it works, for if he does not know how it works, then he will not have control to it..
Again God is all knowing, but God doesnt know everything, because there is no evreything, for everything implies limit and God is eternal. You can never learn enough, or know enough, or think enough. There is no end to size,