Atheists' omniscience/freewill argument, DEBUNKED.

[muscleman]

Hello everyone, this is my first topic post..I typed it today out of anger, because some ppl become atheists because of the omniscience/freewill argument, which to me doesnt prove God dont exist..

So I typed all this, to flaw atheists argument. I invite anyone to respond to this (excuse my grammar and wrong spelling, dont want to spend time on that, this is just a rough draft..) Here it goes.........




If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?


Thats the same question as ...."If God knows in the future that some of us are going to heaven, why did he create us anyways?"...

First of all, whoever said that it is a bad thing to put in hell those who are greedy, selfish, murderer, and rapist? They do belong to hell..

And whoever said it is bad for the sorrowfull, kind, loving, patient man to enter heaven? They do belong to heaven...

The question is, who is responsible for making them the way they are? GOD AND THE DEVIL IS....BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEVIL? GOD IS....

But did God made a mistake? I thought God is all perfect?

"Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect'- Bible...

Perfection doesnt mean NOT commiting sin, perfection means "order", in other words, having solution for every actions, whether good or bad, so at the end they come in order...Just as the stereo is not "perfect" without the speaker, not that a stereo without a speaker is a mistake, but it is in itself, but with the speaker it is complete........

For every sin commited, we must ask for forgiveness, then repair it, then you become perfect...This is how a person become perfect, and enter heaven...........

IS THE DEVIL A MISTAKE?

Yes, the devil in itself is a mistake, but with Jesus death in the cross, it is perfection.........

The devil is part of "Order", in other words, part of "Perfection"...Jesus death in the cross is the other part of the order/perfection.........

But what about the old testament? Jesus didnt die on the cross then, does it mean everyone else then went to hell?

People are not accountable for the sin they commited if they didnt know it is wrong to begin with "Those who does not know sin does not commit sin". God didnt reveal to them yet that we should love our enemy and care for one another..(There is a reason for this, the reason is a mustard seed takes time to grow and be mature. Just as human brains evolve, our brain at the time are too primitive to handle so much knowledge. Just as an infant cannot learn square root at age of 6 montns, but in due time through maturity will be able to.)

So going back to the question.... If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?

Rephrase that by saying........

"If God knows in the future that the evil, murdered, and lazy ppl are going to hell, and the patient, kind, sorrowfull, loving man are going to heaven, why did God create Jesus and the Devil to begin with?"


Its a mind trick, satan is the master of confusion. THIS QUESTION IS ALL AN ILLUSION, THERE IS NO TRUTH TO THIS...If you take things OUT OF CONTEXT, it makes it sound like this is contradictory, but again there is nothing contradictory about this...People who went to hell deserves to go to hell, and people who went to heaven deserves to go to heaven...

God created jesus, but he also created the devil...YOU CANT TAKE ONE, WITHOUT THE OTHER, OTHERWISE IT WILL CONTRADICT...........

But whos responsible for those who went to hell? The devil...And whos responsible for the devil? God....

But are those who went to hell completely surrounded with evil? NO, they were surrounded with good as well (Gods words through prophets.).....But why did they went to hell? Because they decided to choose the easy path instead, the devil....But who created their decisions in which choses to do evil? God did...

But doesnt this point out that God Himself is "like" the devil? No...Why not?

Bottom line here is that whether God created him or not (and he did) fact that the matter is, greedy, selfish, self centered, murderers belongs to hell...They live in a life of "easy" way out, pleasure comes first, their way comes first, so at the end they suffered, for they already had their pleasure...Even if God is responsible for this, NOBODY COMPLAINS WHEN THINGS GO THEIR WAY, NOBODY IS MAD ABOUT THEIR LIFE WHEN THEY ARE A HAPPY PERSON, AND FROM HERE, THIS WILL TAKE YOU TO HELL...............


But if someone complains about their happy life, then they can change their ways and seek for the truth...
This is the truth, that nobody is happy about starving (depriving oneself of food to save another life..). Nobody is happy about spending alot of time to the handicap instead of spending a lot of time to an attractive opposite sex who "loves" you and have alot of money. Nobody is happy about loving your enemy, only in this way we can find peace...


You can be happy about doing this things, BUT FIRST, you must train yourself (alot of sacrifice), the cross, in due time, YOU WILL BEGIN ENJOYING FOLLOWING THE VIRTUE, THIS IS CALLED "HEAVEN"" SPIRITUAL HAPPINESS.....
The way to the cross is the way to the happiness, theres no other way. Can you point to me one person who is naturally born to enjoy fasting, loving their enemies, and enjoys spending time with the handicap with the option of spending time with the rich and famous person? NOT ONE PERSON IN THIS EARTH ARE LIKE THIS...


If you claim there is, then prove it...Tell me his/her name, address, documented life, etc..EVEN SAINTS HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE CROSS...

Those who complain there is another way is a liar...There is no other way to the gate but through the door, and those who claim that there is, by climbing through the wall, those are the thieves, the liars, and the greedy. Once again, the way to happiness, is the way to the cross....

Either you suffer first, then be happy later...Or suffer first, then be happy later, YOUR CHOICE....

So lets go back to the question one last time....

"If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?"

That is jumping from one conclusion to another, without qouting the facts of why people go to hell, what they did and how they lived their life.....

That is like saying...

"An atom "Became" a singled cell life form, therefore there is no need of God in order for life to exist."..

Scientifically speaking, this is currently impossible....Therefore you shouldnt say "AN ATOM BECAME A SINGLED CELL LIFE FORM", because the fact is, you havent quoted the cause of it..From chemicals, to physics, sub-atomic particles, etc. LIFE IS AN ORDER, LIFE IS COMPLEX, AND LIFE IS PERFECTION...

IF YOU TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT, IT WILL NO LONGER BE "ORDER" AND PERFECTION, BUT IT WILL CONTRADICT AS IT IS THE CASE FOR THIS QUESTION.........

So the atheists question is just a simple mind trick, indeed, a work of the devil (my belief), master of illusion, father of lies. Next time that question is posted, this answer must be posted as well, THAT WAY IT WONT CONTRADICT........

[BrianT]

Anybody else here play saxophone?

[aerosolben]

Hi, muscleman. I read through your post and honestly can't find where you answered the question, "If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?"
Perhaps if you could write a concise answer to that, then seperately defend that answer. Right now, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Edwin]

I didn't read all the way through, but it MUST BE TRUE because it uses CAPITAL LETTERS!

I understand Undercover Elephant. This person um no.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

muscleman,

Hello everyone, this is my first topic post..I typed it today out of anger, because some ppl become atheists because of the omniscience/freewill argument, which to me doesnt prove God dont exist..

I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent. But, of course, not all theists believe in an omniscient God, and not all of those that do believe in conceptions of free-will that are incompatible with fatalism.

I don't know of anybody who would cite that as their reason for being an atheist, though. What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs.

If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?

Thats the same question as ...."If God knows in the future that some of us are going to heaven, why did he create us anyways?"...

First of all, whoever said that it is a bad thing to put in hell those who are greedy, selfish, murderer, and rapist? They do belong to hell..

Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.

And whoever said it is bad for the sorrowfull, kind, loving, patient man to enter heaven? They do belong to heaven...

Nobody that I know of.

The question is, who is responsible for making them the way they are? GOD AND THE DEVIL IS....BUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEVIL? GOD IS....

But did God made a mistake? I thought God is all perfect?

Either he made a mistake, or he is cruel and unjust.

Perfection doesnt mean NOT commiting sin, perfection means "order", in other words, having solution for every actions, whether good or bad, so at the end they come in order...Just as the stereo is not "perfect" without the speaker, not that a stereo without a speaker is a mistake, but it is in itself, but with the speaker it is complete........

For every sin committed, we must ask for forgiveness, then repair it, then you become perfect...This is how a person become perfect, and enter heaven...........

Oh, so it isn't a question of good or evil, but instead of some arbitrary "perfection" that God defines? Doesn't this just confirm the argument that such a God commits evil acts?

IS THE DEVIL A MISTAKE?

Yes, the devil in itself is a mistake, but with Jesus death in the cross, it is perfection.........

Is that supposed to make sense? Oh, by the way, doesn't your religion hold that Jesus is alive? If so, what kind of sacrifice was his death on the cross, anyway?

But what about the old testament? Jesus didnt die on the cross then, does it mean everyone else then went to hell?

People are not accountable for the sin they committed if they didnt know it is wrong to begin with "Those who does not know sin does not commit sin". God didnt reveal to them yet that we should love our enemy and care for one another..(There is a reason for this, the reason is a mustard seed takes time to grow and be mature. Just as human brains evolve, our brain at the time are too primitive to handle so much knowledge. Just as an infant cannot learn square root at age of 6 montns, but in due time through maturity will be able to.)

You should read your Bible again. This isn't what it says.

Bottom line here is that whether God created him or not (and he did) fact that the matter is, greedy, selfish, self centered, murderers belongs to hell...They live in a life of "easy" way out, pleasure comes first, their way comes first, so at the end they suffered, for they already had their pleasure...Even if God is responsible for this, NOBODY COMPLAINS WHEN THINGS GO THEIR WAY, NOBODY IS MAD ABOUT THEIR LIFE WHEN THEY ARE A HAPPY PERSON, AND FROM HERE, THIS WILL TAKE YOU TO HELL...............

This is nonsense. Like I said before, punishment that serves no purpose is not punishment. It is vengeance, and it is unjust.

So the atheists question is just a simple mind trick, indeed, a work of the devil (my belief), master of illusion, father of lies. Next time that question is posted, this answer must be posted as well, THAT WAY IT WONT CONTRADICT........

You want to know why I am an atheist? It is because there is no reliable evidence anywhere for any sort of God. That is all. It has nothing to do with questions of morality, justice, good, evil, etc...

There is no rational reason to believe any gods exist, so I don't.

Furthermore, it sounds like you are using the term "atheist" to be synonymous with non-Christian. Only about a third of the World's population is Christian, and only a small fraction of that number is the same type of Christian as you. Are they all going to Hell? Do they all deserve Hell for not having been indoctrinated from birth into the same cult as you?

Dr. Stupid

[muscleman]

First, I have to say that the first time i discovered forums was on sciforums.com, from yahoo, but too much kids there, and "some guy" showed me this..
I warn you, I may appear to be amateur bcuz of the way I type, but Im not. I have debated with atheists many times before (professors, or teens.), so Im not new at this at all....My point is, please becarefull before u post, and make sure they are good arguments, that way I dont have to call you names ok? I also ask, how old are you? (I hope yur NOT a teenager..)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
muscleman,



I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent.

Any religion that teaches a limited God are incoherent and self-contradicting.....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs..

Pointing out what a "Good God" to your PERSONAL belief, states nothing incoherent of an all knowing God...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.

When making a comment on "eternity", learn the WHOLE context first...Why are they locked for all eternity, those who serve satan and satan himself? The purpose is so that "No longer will they able to harm the world.." They are locked for eternity, and will never be released.

If God created human in his image, they are designed for "eternity", whether such individuals "prefer" the easy life, or the truth..

God cannot create an eternal soul, then break his own law of creation/covenant (theres a difference between "changing mind" or "breaking a promise, breaking a covenant."...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before..

Once again ur taking things out of context, God didnt just placed a gun in front of man, but he also placed a gun crusher. If the using the gun is more pleasurable and he chose to kill, and God called with in him and say "Ask for forgiveness" but the man chose to rationalize his act because IT IS THE EASY WAY, I pretty much believe that his "stupidity" deserves eternity in hell...God may have been "like" the computer programmer, but since the fact is "we have not been able to create an independent intelligence computer", we cannot really use that analogy..But bottom line here is, AS IN THE REAL WORLD, you and I are aware of our actions, and knows when we kill, or when we rape, and knows when we reject correction, or accept responsibility....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


Either he made a mistake, or he is cruel and unjust...

What is mistake to you? What is cruel to you? What is unjust to you? To you, it is cruel that the devil and all his followers are locked away for all eternity never again to feel the pleasure of life (reincarnation).. To me, it is NOT cruel that rapist, liars (abortionist), and killers are locked away for all eternity, ESPECIALLY if they are aware of their act (have been corrected but too stubborn..) Correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Oh, so it isn't a question of good or evil, but instead of some arbitrary "perfection" that God defines? Doesn't this just confirm the argument that such a God commits evil acts?

Evil to some, are good to others. To you abortion maybe good, but to us its evil..God is evil to others, but God is good to others as well....Again, correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Is that supposed to make sense? Oh, by the way, doesn't your religion hold that Jesus is alive? If so, what kind of sacrifice was his death on the cross, anyway?

Jesus experienced death, torture, rejection, he endured all the human race endured. Thus, you cant call God "hypocrite" for he practice what he preach..
He was then ressurected (reincarnation), for this is the life God promised, a soul that does not get ressurected is a suffering soul, longing the flesh it formerly owned but cannot obtain it....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

You should read your Bible again. This isn't what it says.

may not be exact words, but something like it....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

This is nonsense. Like I said before, punishment that serves no purpose is not punishment. It is vengeance, and it is unjust.

Thats your opinion...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

You want to know why I am an atheist? It is because there is no reliable evidence anywhere for any sort of God. That is all. It has nothing to do with questions of morality, justice, good, evil, etc...

There is no rational reason to believe any gods exist, so I don't.

To you, but to others God is proven. Besides, what kind of proof are you looking for? Explain.......


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Furthermore, it sounds like you are using the term "atheist" to be synonymous with non-Christian. Only about a third of the World's population is Christian, and only a small fraction of that number is the same type of Christian as you. Are they all going to Hell? Do they all deserve Hell for not having been indoctrinated from birth into the same cult as you?

Dr. Stupid

U have to look deeper than the "titles", people doesnt appear as they claim to be..
You maybe more christian than I am, although u claim to be atheists, while I claim to be a christian, but your virtues may possibly be more of the life Jesus pointedf out we should live...Just as the roman soldier (who was considered Pagan) have the strongest faith of all in jerusalem (ppl who claim to be believers of God), in Jesus time....Or the theif on the cross who was considered to be "evil" at the time but went to heaven...

[Stimpson J. Cat]

muscleman,

First, I have to say that the first time i discovered forums was on sciforums.com, from yahoo, but too much kids there, and "some guy" showed me this..
I warn you, I may appear to be amateur bcuz of the way I type, but Im not. I have debated with atheists many times before (professors, or teens.), so Im not new at this at all....My point is, please becarefull before u post, and make sure they are good arguments, that way I dont have to call you names ok? I also ask, how old are you? (I hope yur NOT a teenager..)

I am a 30 year old Physicist. You can call me any names you want. All doing so will do is illustrate your own inability to debate in a mature way.

I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any religion that teaches a limited God are incoherent and self-contradicting.....

How so? Do you have any argument to back that up? I know a lot of very intelligent Theists who would disagree with you on that point.

What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pointing out what a "Good God" to your PERSONAL belief, states nothing incoherent of an all knowing God...

Nor is it intended to. The entire point is to point out the inconsistency of a God that is all-knowing and omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. If you do not believe that GOd is all three, then these arguments clearly are not applicable to your conception of God.

Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When making a comment on "eternity", learn the WHOLE context first...Why are they locked for all eternity, those who serve satan and satan himself? The purpose is so that "No longer will they able to harm the world.." They are locked for eternity, and will never be released.

Two points:

1) Why torture them for all eternity? What purpose does that serve? I realize that some religions hold that Hell is just separation from god, but (a) that isn't what the Bible says, and (b) the argument that it is wrong to condemn people to Hell is not applicable to such a belief system.

2) Why not just destroy them?

If God created human in his image, they are designed for "eternity", whether such individuals "prefer" the easy life, or the truth..

God cannot create an eternal soul, then break his own law of creation/covenant (theres a difference between "changing mind" or "breaking a promise, breaking a covenant."...

Did you just say that there is something that God cannot do? Doesn't that contradict your above statement that God cannot be limited?

And how does an all-knowing God change his mind, anyway? Certainly he would know that he is just going to change his mind later?

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again ur taking things out of context, God didnt just placed a gun in front of man, but he also placed a gun crusher. If the using the gun is more pleasurable and he chose to kill, and God called with in him and say "Ask for forgiveness" but the man chose to rationalize his act because IT IS THE EASY WAY, I pretty much believe that his "stupidity" deserves eternity in hell...

Two more points.

1) This doesn't address my point at all.

2) You cannot reasonably claim that God has instructed us to ask for forgiveness, because He has not done so in a way that can be reasonably recognized as such. Not only has only a small fraction of the Human population ever received this "message", but even if we assume that the Bible is truth, the message has been given in such a way that we cannot reliably know that it is legitimate. There is no more evidence that the Bible is the truth, then for any other ancient mythology.

God may have been "like" the computer programmer, but since the fact is "we have not been able to create an independent intelligence computer", we cannot really use that analogy..But bottom line here is, AS IN THE REAL WORLD, you and I are aware of our actions, and knows when we kill, or when we rape, and knows when we reject correction, or accept responsibility....

Irrelevant. I have never killed nor raped anybody. I live my life according to the Golden Rule. But according to your religion, I am going to be tortured in Hell for all of eternity, because Adam and Eve did something naughty, and because I am not convinced by the unreliable evidence that your God exists.

Either he made a mistake, or he is cruel and unjust...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is mistake to you? What is cruel to you? What is unjust to you? To you, it is cruel that the devil and all his followers are locked away for all eternity never again to feel the pleasure of life (reincarnation).. To me, it is NOT cruel that rapist, liars (abortionist), and killers are locked away for all eternity, ESPECIALLY if they are aware of their act (have been corrected but too stubborn..) Correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

First of all, the Bible does not just condemn liars killers and rapists to Hell. In fact, it does not condemn them to Hell at all. Have you ever read the Bible? What determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell is whether you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins. According to the Bible everybody, even a newborn infant, "deserves" Hell. Only the forgiveness of Jesus can save you.

Second, I define "cruel" to be causing pain for no purpose.

Oh, so it isn't a question of good or evil, but instead of some arbitrary "perfection" that God defines? Doesn't this just confirm the argument that such a God commits evil acts?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evil to some, are good to others. To you abortion maybe good, but to us its evil..God is evil to others, but God is good to others as well....Again, correct me if Im wrong w/your belief..

If this is the case, then the argument from evil that you are attacking does not apply to your beliefs. It only applies to those who believe that God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

I am quite happy to agree that the God described in the Bible is, according to my moral standards, an evil, vindictive, and cruel being. My lack of belief in your mythology has nothing to do with this, though.

Is that supposed to make sense? Oh, by the way, doesn't your religion hold that Jesus is alive? If so, what kind of sacrifice was his death on the cross, anyway?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus experienced death, torture, rejection, he endured all the human race endured.

Get real. The torment Jesus received in the Bible is nothing compared to what people have been subjected to by so-called Christians for not believing. The tortures used by the Church to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity make the Crucifixion look like a walk in the park.

Thus, you cant call God "hypocrite" for he practice what he preach..
He was then ressurected (reincarnation), for this is the life God promised, a soul that does not get ressurected is a suffering soul, longing the flesh it formerly owned but cannot obtain it....

I don't claim God is a hypocrite. I claim that the resurrection is, at best, symbolic.

You should read your Bible again. This isn't what it says.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

may not be exact words, but something like it....

No, nothing like it. The notion that people who haven't been fortunate enough to have heard the word of Jesus won't go to Hell for not believing, is a fairly recent concept, invented to try to reconcile the modern belief that people should not be punished for things that they had no control over, with the fact that the Bible clearly states that they should. It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

This is nonsense. Like I said before, punishment that serves no purpose is not punishment. It is vengeance, and it is unjust.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats your opinion...

You have a strange notion of Justice. Do you really believe that it is just to cause somebody pain, even if doing so will have no beneficial effect whatsoever?

There is no rational reason to believe any gods exist, so I don't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To you, but to others God is proven. Besides, what kind of proof are you looking for? Explain.......

Reliable evidence. Confirmable objective facts from which the existence of God can be logically deduced. Can you provide any argument for believing in your God that could not just as easily be applied to some other God?

Furthermore, it sounds like you are using the term "atheist" to be synonymous with non-Christian. Only about a third of the World's population is Christian, and only a small fraction of that number is the same type of Christian as you. Are they all going to Hell? Do they all deserve Hell for not having been indoctrinated from birth into the same cult as you?

Dr. Stupid
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U have to look deeper than the "titles", people doesnt appear as they claim to be..
You maybe more christian than I am, although u claim to be atheists, while I claim to be a christian, but your virtues may possibly be more of the life Jesus pointedf out we should live...Just as the roman soldier (who was considered Pagan) have the strongest faith of all in jerusalem (ppl who claim to be believers of God), in Jesus time....Or the theif on the cross who was considered to be "evil" at the time but went to heaven...

Maybe, but I don't believe that Jesus ever really lived. I don't believe in God, Satan, Heaven, or Hell. And according to the Bible which is the only source of information about these things, I am an evil person for this, and I will burn for all of eternity because of it, while somebody who lives their life in the most evil and depraved ways you can imagine, but who repents at the last minute before he dies, will go to Heaven.


Dr. Stupid

[Darat]

Originally posted by muscleman
...snip...

Any religion that teaches a limited God are incoherent and self-contradicting.....


...snip...

Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
muscleman,

I am a 30 year old Physicist. You can call me any names you want. All doing so will do is illustrate your own inability to debate in a mature way.

thats a good news, I hope yur telling the truth....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

How so? Do you have any argument to back that up? I know a lot of very intelligent Theists who would disagree with you on that point..


God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Nor is it intended to. The entire point is to point out the inconsistency of a God that is all-knowing and omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. If you do not believe that GOd is all three, then these arguments clearly are not applicable to your conception of God.
God is all three, (omnipresent as well just to add)......

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Two points:

1) Why torture them for all eternity? What purpose does that serve? I realize that some religions hold that Hell is just separation from god, but (a) that isn't what the Bible says, and (b) the argument that it is wrong to condemn people to Hell is not applicable to such a belief system.

2) Why not just destroy them?

Theres a difference between God "capable" of doing everything and anything. And God doing anything and everything. God is capable of breaking the laws of his creation, but he wont, because God keeps his promise...I said this before and I say this again...

God is living, you and I are created in his image. We change minds, so does God. We can be perfect when we find our ways, as God is perfect...

Changing mind is part of knowing things..Thats how we solve ideas or thoughts, by using our judgment, we can change ideas and at the end the truth awaits. We are created in the image of God, God have solutions to EVERY SINGLE DETAIL HE HAS DONE, from stars death (blackhole;recycled) to human psychology. Being all knowing implies "all judgment", in other words "all thinking".

Once again theres a difference between changing mind, and breaking promise....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Did you just say that there is something that God cannot do? Doesn't that contradict your above statement that God cannot be limited?

And how does an all-knowing God change his mind, anyway? Certainly he would know that he is just going to change his mind later?

Aforementioned... But illl type it again, theres a difference between "capable" of doing anything and everything, and DOING anything and everything...

Just because I am capable of slaughtering 20 guys in my liftime, it doesnt mean I will do it.......I am entitled to use human analogy, for the claim is we are created in the image of God (just to add that)...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Two more points.

1) This doesn't address my point at all.

2) You cannot reasonably claim that God has instructed us to ask for forgiveness, because He has not done so in a way that can be reasonably recognized as such. Not only has only a small fraction of the Human population ever received this "message", but even if we assume that the Bible is truth, the message has been given in such a way that we cannot reliably know that it is legitimate. There is no more evidence that the Bible is the truth, then for any other ancient mythology.

I realized that wont answer your question, so I typed this few minutes ago to annihilate your post...

Isnt it God is responsible as well if your really stupid and do wrong anyways?

Yes he is, thats why a stupid person in itself is wrong, but existence of "hell" is justice and "order" ( perfection)...You cant take things out of context...

Thats why if you commit wrong, and your aware of your wrong, repent and ask for forgiveness (if today u hear my words, harden not yur hearts), otherwise if you continue to be stupid, then you will enter hell. (FOR NONE KNOWS WHAT IS AHEAD OF US BUT GOD ALONE..).

And once again God is also responsible for a very stupid person who went to hell, but again a stupid person in itself is a mistake, thats why hell exist for justice sake; perfection and order. In summary God didnt made a mistake, if hell didnt exist, then God made a mistake, but because hell exist for a stupid person, then thats justice and order....

Just as a reciever alone isnt order (may be a mistake) but with speakers, it bcomes order and perfection..........

But doesnt that make God cruel? Creating a very stupid person, then putting him on hell after creating him to be stupid?

Before making judgment on God first let us observe why people are stupid AND NOT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, FOR ALMOST ANYTHING WHEN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT BECOMES AN ERROR...People are stupid for a reason. The fact here is, stupidity exist for pleasure/comfort sake...

There is no suffering man and at the same time stupid, for if this kind of person exist, I will DENOUNCE MY FAITH AND WILL NEVER AGAIN SPEAK OF THE NAME OF GOD, FOR GOD MUST BE SO CRUEL AND I WILL BE ATHEIST RIGHT NOW, I PROMISE...But thats not the truth...

the fact is, the reason why people are stupid, is either for money, women, attention, COMFORT, in summary, people are stupid for pleasure sake (either that pleasure and comfort comes in the role of molesting kids, stealing other ppl's property, etc. have been corrected, but doesnt want to admit he/she is wrong bcuz of the pleasure it brings, rationalizing his act). And if they live throughout their life being stupid (always being in pleasure and self-centered) then I can confidently say that it is "justice" for this kind of person to enter hell, for this person experienced pleasure already without caring how he earns it, he may earn it through killing his enemy, cheating on his wife, etc.....

Obedient guys are those who are humble, patient, and thoughtfull of others. And stupid people in the other hand are the pridefull, comfort seeker, self centered, impatient, etc....This is a psychological fact, unless of course the person has some form of brain malfunction...........

Like I was saying FROM THE BEGGINING, PEEPS WHO WENT TO HELL DESERVES TO GO TO HELL, AND PEEPS WHO WENT TO HEAVEN DESERVES TO GO TO HEAVEN.

But of course this is just my belief, your belief might be opposite. U might believe that rapist, killers, and child molesters doesnt deserve to be locked out for all eternity, but deserves to be released to harm the world again, or whatever your belief maybe...And if God contradicts your belief, then you call him cruel, and therefore in your world, God may indeed be cruel, thats fine with me, thats your distorted view (my opinion)....

So next time someone says "God isn't perfect, he makes mistakes because he created evil man.."

Answer them this.."Why do you think hell exist?"..........Hell exist for evil man, and evil man deserves to dwell in hell (my personal belief, as your belief could be opposite, u could b thinking that 9 months old babies are not humans but a blob of tissue, while i believe its a lie and that 9 month old babies are humans..)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Irrelevant. I have never killed nor raped anybody. I live my life according to the Golden Rule. But according to your religion, I am going to be tortured in Hell for all of eternity, because Adam and Eve did something naughty, and because I am not convinced by the unreliable evidence that your God exists.

My religion says those who does not have pity for the starving, hungry, clothless, lonely people are going to hell whether they claim to love God or not, for whatever u do to the least of my brothers you do unto God....

Whether you come in a form of buddhism, the word must be spread, and that word is the beatitudes and virtues (commandments). And such judgment applies whether your gentile or jew, romans or asians, claim to believe in God or not.......(We can get into detail with this later...)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

First of all, the Bible does not just condemn liars killers and rapists to Hell. In fact, it does not condemn them to Hell at all. Have you ever read the Bible? What determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell is whether you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins. According to the Bible everybody, even a newborn infant, "deserves" Hell. Only the forgiveness of Jesus can save you.

Second, I define "cruel" to be causing pain for no purpose.

Your right, sinners are not condemned, but the word "Jesus" is deeper than a white man in white suit. Jesus is the "Word", and the word is spirit, and God is spirit. So it comes down to the virtues and morality we must obey, and this "words" are not limited to those who claim to be christian, or who understands christianity....

I already mentioned the purpose of hell, but if your "stubborn" and say that there is NO purpose, then your entitled to yuor stupidity....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


Get real. The torment Jesus received in the Bible is nothing compared to what people have been subjected to by so-called Christians for not believing. The tortures used by the Church to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity make the Crucifixion look like a walk in the park.

He was beaten...Scourged, left in prison with no food or water(except when given gall to drink..) Was abandoned by his only friends (apostles), was hated, spit at and to think about it HE WAS IN THE BEGGINING WITH THE WORLD, AND ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, but the world rejected him...

Crucified, was left to bleed to death..A SLOW DEATH........

I rather be fed by lions, or burned to death, than to endure the torture of Jesus, a special torture by the romans for he was considered to be a blasphemer, claiming to be God when there is only one God.....




Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

No, nothing like it. The notion that people who haven't been fortunate enough to have heard the word of Jesus won't go to Hell for not believing, is a fairly recent concept, invented to try to reconcile the modern belief that people should not be punished for things that they had no control over, with the fact that the Bible clearly states that they should. It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

Then your wrong, because the bible does states about someone if not knowing sin cannot be accountable for the act unless they are aware their act is a sin. It was written by St. Paul (Im not sure) and he is an example for that. He was a former christian killer, then saw the light and was converted.........

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


Reliable evidence. Confirmable objective facts from which the existence of God can be logically deduced. Can you provide any argument for believing in your God that could not just as easily be applied to some other God?



Maybe, but I don't believe that Jesus ever really lived. I don't believe in God, Satan, Heaven, or Hell. And according to the Bible which is the only source of information about these things, I am an evil person for this, and I will burn for all of eternity because of it, while somebody who lives their life in the most evil and depraved ways you can imagine, but who repents at the last minute before he dies, will go to Heaven.


Dr. Stupid


I see what you mean, you dont believe Jesus even existed....But can you prove King Henry exist?

[Edwin]

There is no suffering man and at the same time stupid, for if this kind of person exist, I will DENOUNCE MY FAITH AND WILL NEVER AGAIN SPEAK OF THE NAME OF GOD, FOR GOD MUST BE SO CRUEL AND I WILL BE ATHEIST RIGHT NOW, I PROMISE...But thats not the truth..

What about the drunk driver who's lying in hospital?
What about people living in war-torn countries (some of them must be stupid, just as some people are stupid in every otehr country)?

Or are your definitions of suffering and stupid different from mine?

[Darat]

Originally posted by muscleman

...snip...

God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything...

...snip...

God is all three, (omnipresent as well just to add)......

...snip...

Theres a difference between God "capable" of doing everything and anything. And God doing anything and everything. God is capable of breaking the laws of his creation, but he wont, because God keeps his promise...I said this before and I say this again...

...snip...


So you are saying that your God is limited, that he cannot do everything. (In other words your answer to my question is that there are “rocks” God couldn’t lift.)

On a more practical level can you tell me where your evidence is for the contention that God has promised never to break the “laws of his creation”?

I am assuming you believe this from your reading of one of the many Christian bibles? Can you please quote the scripture or give me the references to the passages from the Bible that support your statement? I can’t think of any off-hand.

[MRC_Hans]

Hello, Muscleman, and welcome on this sceptic's board. I think you will find debaters here that can match you. We are rather tolerant to name-calling, but, on the other hand, it wont get you anywhere. If you're into serious debate, I suggest you shorten your posts, and concentrate on one argument at the time. Thats the best way to make people take you seriously. My advice is: Dont start any flame-wars, we have some people here that can eat you for breakfast in that particular discipline, heheh.

But for a serious and dedicated debater, there is an interesting time to be had here.

Hans

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Edwin


What about the drunk driver who's lying in hospital?
What about people living in war-torn countries (some of them must be stupid, just as some people are stupid in every otehr country)?

Or are your definitions of suffering and stupid different from mine?

If some drunk driver is lying in the hospital, whos an atheist because thats how he was brought out, (and his knowledge have NOT been challenged.) Suffering...This man is NOT "stupid" or as the bible put it "stiff necked"...

You can only be stupid if yur arguments have been debunked somany times, and you obviously know your wrong, someone this stupid cannot be in the state of suffering, for if they continue to be stupid like this, they must be doing it for "comfort" sake or pleasure sake. That is just human psychology...

Unless of course you can prove to me that a extremely stupid guy suffering in the hospital like that exist, then I will become an atheist (Make sure that the guy isnt retarded or something..) Prove to me this person exist, document his life, historically....Who is this person? Make any example. To my own knowledge, again, someone this stupid and in denial is doing it for a cause, and that cause is pleasure or comfort (whatever the pleasure comes in, either some adult video game, etc. whatever.)

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Darat


So you are saying that your God is limited, that he cannot do everything. (In other words your answer to my question is that there are “rocks” God couldn’t lift.)

On a more practical level can you tell me where your evidence is for the contention that God has promised never to break the “laws of his creation”?

I am assuming you believe this from your reading of one of the many Christian bibles? Can you please quote the scripture or give me the references to the passages from the Bible that support your statement? I can’t think of any off-hand.

If u guys didnt get my argument, youll probably think Im stupid, you have to look deeper into it to understand it..

God made a covenant with man, he created them in his image. And God is eternal.. Covenant is a promise and "I believe" that the bible did state that he cannot break a covenant (but ill have to ask one of my bible expert friends...Ill get back with u into this...)..

I just want to clarify what I was saying earlier...To know means to think, for instance.. If you heard in the tv. "If it doesnt get all over the place it doesnt belong in your face", maybe you didnt think of that knowledge, but someone did.
To know means to think..Implying that God is all knowing is implying that God is all thinking, for that is what it means in order to know... And to think is to change mind, ideas, and thoughts.. THATS A REALITY CHECK...

So to assume that since God is all knowing, therefore he cannot "think and change his mind", is stupid and taking things out of context... The fact is God is all knowing, and to know means to think, in summary, God is all judgment, all thinking, all learning, and all knowing, for we are created in the image of God and DONT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT...

We are like God, but we are not God, so dont say also we can be all knowing, we can only know. If God created human life, humans can only create "like" human life, for instance, intelligent robots (limited but were capable)......

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat


I agree that the omniscience/freewill argument doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. At best, it shows that a particular set of religious beliefs is incoherent. But, of course, not all theists believe in an omniscient God, and not all of those that do believe in conceptions of free-will that are incompatible with fatalism.



Of course it doesn't. How could it conceivably do so? Libertarian free will is perfectly compatible with an omniscient God. It's people who hold that the physical world is closed who can't believe in free will.



I don't know of anybody who would cite that as their reason for being an atheist, though. What does occasionally happen is that atheists will present the argument in an attempt to point out incoherencies in a certain class of theistic beliefs.


I know of no inconsistancies.




Only if you cling to a very primitive and cruel conception of justice. What you have described isn't punishment, it is vengeance. Punishment is supposed to serve some purpose. What purpose is served by torturing people for all of eternity? If they are really so vile, just destroy them.



Absolutely. if there is an afterlife we to a large extent determine our own fates.



Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.



Well that argument doesn't follow. You forget that God could create us with free will.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Darat


Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?

Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.

[muscleman]

MRC Hans, I am looking for a serious debate..

And there is only one topic here, lets not go off track. The topic is freewill and omniscience does co-exist. But its 2 different concepts..

Ill use a primitive analogy. Picture you walking in a parade u dont know whats ahead of you, and God being above, he sees everything below and ahead of you, not that its the future to God, but to us, it is the future, God is "Omnipresent" (get the idea)...

And the topic also goes further to say it is illogic to claim that since God is omniscient (all knowing), therefore he cant think, or change his mind. Thats plain stupid...

First and foremost, what do you mean by "All"? All of what? Knowing what? All knowing of human thoughts? If you look at it in that limited perspective, then God is all knowing and cannot change his mind (for God dont learn anything from you and me.)
There is no limit to knowledge. To say "God knows everything" is to say there is limit to knowledge. God doesnt know everything because there is no such thing as everything, the word "everything" implies limit....

There is no limit to size, or shape, or thought, etc. You can never learn enough, you can never think enough, and u can never know enough. God is all learning, and all knowing, and all thinking (and this imp[lies he change his mind) for that is what being "alive" means, in motion........Lets stick to this subject, the point is, ONLY IGNORANT KIDS FALL FOR THE "OMNISCIENCE/FREEWILL ARGUMENT" THEREFORE AN ALL KNOWING GOD DONT EXIST..

Thats a very old, primitive DEBUNKED statement.........
-------------------------------------------------


edited= Oh yeah and I almost forgot.. Can God create a rock he cannot lift?

This is a very primitive question.. Nothing is impossible with God..
Just because God "can" break a promise, it doesnt mean He "will" break a promise...

Just because God created a huge rock, it doesnt mean he have to lift it, he can if he wills, he dont if he wills not to. GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM, BUT HE DOES WHAT HE WILLS........

[MRC_Hans]

I think the problem is that it is difficult to understand omniscience. But obviously God can grant us free will. This means that he decides to respect our choice and our part in forming the future.

It is a paradox how the future can be changable, yet known (to God), but this paradox is the same whether we or God makes a decision.

The way I see it, God is outside time; for God time is just another dimension and time, as well as the other dimensions, can be shaped. To us, shaping time is to decide the future. Obviously God can grant us right to shape part of time.

Hans

[Darat]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.

Ian I have to disagree, to an extent. Depending on your definition of "omnipotent" it does; a standard dictionary definition of "omnipotent" is:

Encarta Dictionary

all-powerful: possessing complete, unlimited, or universal power and authority



It is an unlimited power, no conditionals i.e. "only logically possible".

The reason I asked the the question is that I was trying to see if there was some common ground where I could discuss, with muscleman, his statements.

If, as some of the Christians I know, muscleman stated that his God was not bounded or limited in any way what-so-ever i.e. can "do" the logically impossible, then I know I cannot have a discussion.

[Darat]

muscleman - some of this refers to the post I made to Ian's comment.

I can't find anywhere within the Bible that states the Christian God is limited in his omnipotence, indeed in Matthew we have an explicate comment from Jesus that God is above the human "impossible":

Matthew 19:26

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


And again in Jeremiah

Jeremiah 32:17

"Ah, Sovereign LORD , you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.


Since all things are possible to this God your God can do evil acts, break his promises and indeed be unfair. Otherwise it would seem the words of the bible are wrong!

Are you saying that the Bible is wrong in what it says about God and that there are some things "impossible" or "too hard" for God?

(And yes I am waiting for someone like PS or Christian to come along and slam me for these posts... ;) )

[Lord Kenneth]

Originally posted by muscleman


If u guys didnt get my argument, youll probably think Im stupid, you have to look deeper into it to understand it..

God made a covenant with man, he created them in his image. And God is eternal.. Covenant is a promise and "I believe" that the bible did state that he cannot break a covenant (but ill have to ask one of my bible expert friends...Ill get back with u into this...)..



Your evidence of this is...where? Not the Bible, that's not a trustworthy source.


I just want to clarify what I was saying earlier...To know means to think, for instance.. If you heard in the tv. "If it doesnt get all over the place it doesnt belong in your face", maybe you didnt think of that knowledge, but someone did.
To know means to think..Implying that God is all knowing is implying that God is all thinking, for that is what it means in order to know... And to think is to change mind, ideas, and thoughts.. THATS A REALITY CHECK...

If God is all-perfect... why would he CHANGE his mind?



So to assume that since God is all knowing, therefore he cannot "think and change his mind", is stupid and taking things out of context... The fact is God is all knowing, and to know means to think, in summary, God is all judgment, all thinking, all learning, and all knowing, for we are created in the image of God and DONT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT...

But if he knows EVERYTHING, then he should know the best possible solutions, should he not?


We are like God, but we are not God, so dont say also we can be all knowing, we can only know. If God created human life, humans can only create "like" human life, for instance, intelligent robots (limited but were capable)......

You have no evidence of this, nothing at all.

Why can't human scientists eventually create life in a lab in the future?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Darat

II
Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ian I have to disagree, to an extent. Depending on your definition of "omnipotent" it does; a standard dictionary definition of "omnipotent" is:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Encarta Dictionary

all-powerful: possessing complete, unlimited, or universal power and authority


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is an unlimited power, no conditionals i.e. "only logically possible".



It is without utterly without any meaning to be able to do that which is logically impossible. The idea of lifting a rock so heavy that an omnipotent God cannot lift it, has no more meaning or sense than God making colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

[Edwin]

Originally posted by muscleman
(Make sure that the guy isnt retarded or something..)

Yes, we use different definitions of stupid.

Surely though, you believe that:
1. People who are stupid according to your definition exist
2. Life for these people is not perfect, just as for everyone else
3. Some stupid people are suffering (stupidity does not give a perfect immune system, for example)

[Darat]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


It is without utterly without any meaning to be able to do that which is logically impossible. The idea of lifting a rock so heavy that an omnipotent God cannot lift it, has no more meaning or sense than God making colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

You only say this because you have a belief that logic "IS", some Christians I know don't share your faith in logic.

They state quite categorically that God is "beyond logic", that he can do the logically impossible.

I would say that muscleman believes as some of my Christian friends do. This is what he said:


Just because God created a huge rock, it doesnt mean he have to lift it, he can if he wills, he dont if he wills not to. GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM, BUT HE DOES WHAT HE WILLS........


As you can see he sees no problem with his belief and faith causing a “paradox” because one doesn’t exist for him –only the believer in logic sees a paradox.



(PS - I wasn't intending to discuss your faith and belief in logic but if you'd like we can discuss it in another thread - I don't want to push this thread further off-topic.)

[Legallee Insane]

Alright, so from what I got out of muscleman's first post was that he is going to prove to us that the "free will" arguement is falsible. And he has gone about doing this by stating many obscure things that fail to proove his point.

I believe the following smiley depicts my reaction to his post perfectly.

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/lachen/lachen014.gif

[Underemployed]

Where do you guys get your custom smilies from? :confused:

"GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM"

Let's have another look at that, because at first sight it looks a little confusing:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

I think we might need to go over that again just to make sure:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

But of course I might be taking these "OUT OF CONTEXT"

[muscleman]

Darat, since when did I ever say that God is limited? I said God is unlimited...And once again, God "can" break His promise, but it doesnt mean He "will" break his promise..

Just because I can kill 30 men, it doesnt mean I will..And when I wont, it doesnt mean I cant....

How old are you? I dont mean to offend u, but this is what I mean, its brain like yours I dont want to spend my time on, I need someone with common sense, this is the 2nd time I posted this.....

Originally posted by Dark Cobra


Your evidence of this is...where? Not the Bible, that's not a trustworthy source.

The bible is NOT a trustworthy source? Explain. Do u take the bible as a book to understanding "How" we exist, or do u take it as "why" we exist? Do u use the bible as a scientific reference? Do u find any moral contradictories in the bible? I can deal with these for this is my expertise, but as of now lets stick to the subject which is omniscience/freewill, the bible contains NO free moral errors, or any contradiction unless things are TAKEN out of context...(lets use another post for this..)

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

If God is all-perfect... why would he CHANGE his mind?

U first have to understand what the christianity means when implying "perfection" in this subject...

You and I can be perfect..But we do change minds, and thoughts..

Perfection has nothing to do with judgment, thoughts, or changing mind...Perfection has more to do of "Order". In other words, solutions to every problems...Or answers to every question..A question in itself isnt complete without an answer to it, then this becomes perfect and order...

We are created in the image of God, we can be perfect in the sight of God, and even before then u are already perfect, perfect for the ways of the world (We always find solutions to our problems, whether the solutions is good or bad, u may cry it out, keep it in and feel the pain, or kill yur enemy, bottom line WE always have solution) Thus making us perfect, either for serving the world, or God....There is no in between, either ur in a bad side, or in a good side...Your judgment is based upon your virtues, and even if yur half good half evil, a place called purgatory is a solution for you as well...

Let the man who have ears hear the truth...........


Originally posted by Dark Cobra

But if he knows EVERYTHING, then he should know the best possible solutions, should he not?

Of course......Again, life is an order....

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

You have no evidence of this, nothing at all.

This is another topic....

Originally posted by Dark Cobra

Why can't human scientists eventually create life in a lab in the future?

Good luck with yur psychic prediction.....

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Underemployed
Where do you guys get your custom smilies from? :confused:

"GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT, EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM"

Let's have another look at that, because at first sight it looks a little confusing:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK HE "CANNOT" LIFT

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

I think we might need to go over that again just to make sure:

GOD CANNOT CREATE A ROCK

EVERYTHING IS CAPABLE TO HIM

But of course I might be taking these "OUT OF CONTEXT"

Of course u took it out of context..Didnt u see me type "He can if he wills, or he cant if he wills not to"..

God makes a promise, he "DECIDED" not to break his promise, therefore by his DECISION, he cant break a promise... He can if he DECIDE he will otherwise, but he DECIDED NOT to, therefore God cant by DECISION...

Understand?

[Hazelip]

Originally posted by muscleman

He can if he DECIDE he will otherwise, but he DECIDED NOT to, therefore God cant by DECISION...

Understand?

It must be nice to know the mind of God.

The question was if he can do it or not. The question was not what did he decide (how do you know that, anyway?) to do.

[Underemployed]

Your ideas of 'perfection', 'order' and of things being balanced out by opposing forces is very interesting. I like them! Totally out of place in Christian teachings though.

You say that 'perfection' is that which is fit for the purpose? You do see that this is utterly opposed to the idea of 'goodness' put forth by the Bible, yes?

[c4ts]

There are still a lot of problems problems with this:

1. God is omniscient as the result of His omnipotent omnipresence
- As the result of being everywhere (which comes from His ability to do anything), God is incapable of error, because He knows everything that is, was, and will be. Although there is biblical evidence to the contrary, the Bible may be counted as heresay or conjecture.
2. God is perfect
- Because God is incapable of error, He must be everything a god should be.
3. God created man
- Despite a complete lack of evidence, we can still allow this as the other two also lacked evidence
4. God gave man free will
- This is problematic because it seems free will runs contrary to omniscience and perfection.
5. Man can make the wrong choice, therefore free will and lack of omniscience makes man imperfect
- This is the problem. God has no reason to make mistakes because he is omniscient, and God will not make mistakes if he is everything a God should be. Also, since He is perfect, he has no reason to create people destined to suffer for eternity, nor would he ever do such a thing if He is everything a God should be. Either God is imperfect, or God is not omniscient. But, perfection is the result of omniscience, and therefore omniscience will cause perfection (circular reasoning?). So God cannot be omniscient without being perfect, and God cannot be perfect without omniscience.
6. To argue against free will is contradictory
- If you want to argue against free will, that is your decision, and to make a decision requires free will. Opinion (meaning what you are brought up to believe, such as "democracy is good" if you were raised in America) may seem to go against this, but it can be rejected by actual knowledge or by willpower alone.
7. God's reward and punishment system is contradictory of Himself
- A man without free will is only subject to external forces, therefore no act is voluntary. But virtue, which consists of voluntary acts, is praised, whereas acts under external influences are dismissed or ignored. Without free will, virtue would only exist as either an illusion or mistake, but mistakes are impossible in a determenistic universe, and trickery (illusion) is not the way of a perfect god. A perfect and omnipotent creator is the ultimate external force which would render all acts involuntary. Yet at the same time, God supposedly rewards virtue and punishes excess, both of which are acts of volition. Again, this is contradictory to the first two points.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Hazelip


It must be nice to know the mind of God.

The question was if he can do it or not. The question was not what did he decide (how do you know that, anyway?) to do.

Your wrong, again when the topic is posted concerning "breaking a promise" the MAIN point is CAN God break a promise HE DECIDED TO MAKE, or can he NOT break a promise He decided to make...

Again, if God decided He can, then he can. If God decided He cant, then he cant..

It is like me, if I decided I can bench 400 lbs, then I can in due time (because I will work hard to obtain the strength.) But if I decided I cant, then I cant (because I wont work hard to obtain the muscles.
Or analogy is if I decided I cant talk back to my mom when she corrects me, then I cant by decision. But of course this is just an analogy, and Im not God, I have limits and may talk back to my mother...

And how do I know God decided not to break his covenant (promise)? Theres a book called "bible", the word of God.....I hope I wont have to explain this again, you obviously got debunked on this topic...

Originally posted by Hazelip

Your ideas of 'perfection', 'order' and of things being balanced out by opposing forces is very interesting. I like them! Totally out of place in Christian teachings though.
I am a catechist teacher, high school students come to me and ask questions, atheists or not, there are many, and I have answered so far all questions and they are in awe of the knowledge given to them...I should know what christianity teaches or not....

Originally posted by Hazelip

You say that 'perfection' is that which is fit for the purpose? You do see that this is utterly opposed to the idea of 'goodness' put forth by the Bible, yes?

I see no contradiction, if u do see any. Post them, and I will deal with it......

[Loki]

Muscleman,

If God knows in the future that some of us are going to hell, why did he create us anyways?
Indeed - why?

1. Person 'X' will rape and kill person 'Y' (a 3 year old child) in the year 2007;
2. God knows this;
3. Person 'X' deserves Hell;
4. Person 'Y' would have grown into a "kind and generous" person, and therefore deserves a place in heaven.

What purpose does it serve to allow this act to occur? Why not just send 'X' to hell, and 'Y' to Heaven? Person 'Y' hasn't even been born yet, but god already knows both their death (a painful murder) and their ultimate destination (heaven). In why is anything served by allowing the "play" to unfold? Why bother to have person 'Y' born?

Does god ever 'intervene' to prevent pain and suffering? Does god ever 'intervene' to create pain and suffering?

People are not accountable for the sin they commited if they didnt know it is wrong to begin with "Those who does not know sin does not commit sin".
So you agree that the easiest way to get everyone into heaven is to burn all bibles and remove all traces of god's commandments? Afterall, if we were unaware of what constitutes 'sin' we'd all be saved no matter what we did! Let's get started - burn your bible today, and never mention anything from that book ever again.

[Legallee Insane]

Underemployed:
Where do you guys get your custom smilies from?:confused:
www.clicksmilies.com

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/starwars/starwars023.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/party/party017.gif http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/aktion/aktion074.gif

[Loki]

Muscleman,

Theres a book called "bible", the word of God.....
Actually, there are many books called the bible", and they are not precisely the same. To begin with, are you working from the Catholic or Protestant canon (and why)?

What do you think of the Quran? Is it the word of God? If not, who wrote it (or perhaps "inspired" it), and why? What facts make the bible's claim to be "the word of god" valid, and the Quran's similar claim invalid? How did you arrive at these facts?

[Stimpson J. Cat]

muscleman,

How so? Do you have any argument to back that up? I know a lot of very intelligent Theists who would disagree with you on that point..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything...

Why not?

Nor is it intended to. The entire point is to point out the inconsistency of a God that is all-knowing and omnibenevolent, and omnipotent. If you do not believe that GOd is all three, then these arguments clearly are not applicable to your conception of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God is all three, (omnipresent as well just to add)......

Can you explain how the concept of omnibenevolence is even meaningful, when different people disagree on what is "good" and what is "evil"? Saying that God is omnibenevolent ends up meaning nothing more than that you define "good" to mean "whatever God is". It renders the whole concept of good and evil meaningless.

1) Why torture them for all eternity? What purpose does that serve? I realize that some religions hold that Hell is just separation from god, but (a) that isn't what the Bible says, and (b) the argument that it is wrong to condemn people to Hell is not applicable to such a belief system.

2) Why not just destroy them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theres a difference between God "capable" of doing everything and anything. And God doing anything and everything. God is capable of breaking the laws of his creation, but he wont, because God keeps his promise...I said this before and I say this again...

God is living, you and I are created in his image. We change minds, so does God. We can be perfect when we find our ways, as God is perfect...

Changing mind is part of knowing things..Thats how we solve ideas or thoughts, by using our judgment, we can change ideas and at the end the truth awaits. We are created in the image of God, God have solutions to EVERY SINGLE DETAIL HE HAS DONE, from stars death (blackhole;recycled) to human psychology. Being all knowing implies "all judgment", in other words "all thinking".

Once again theres a difference between changing mind, and breaking promise....

And once again, you have completely ignored my question. Nothing you just said has any relevance whatsoever to my questions.

Did you just say that there is something that God cannot do? Doesn't that contradict your above statement that God cannot be limited?

And how does an all-knowing God change his mind, anyway? Certainly he would know that he is just going to change his mind later?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aforementioned... But illl type it again, theres a difference between "capable" of doing anything and everything, and DOING anything and everything...

Just because I am capable of slaughtering 20 guys in my liftime, it doesnt mean I will do it.......I am entitled to use human analogy, for the claim is we are created in the image of God (just to add that)...

OK. But this still doesn't address the issue of why such an all-powerful Deity would choose to torture people for simply being the way he created them. I could see separating them from the good people, or even destroying them, but why torture them? What's the point?

1) This doesn't address my point at all.

2) You cannot reasonably claim that God has instructed us to ask for forgiveness, because He has not done so in a way that can be reasonably recognized as such. Not only has only a small fraction of the Human population ever received this "message", but even if we assume that the Bible is truth, the message has been given in such a way that we cannot reliably know that it is legitimate. There is no more evidence that the Bible is the truth, then for any other ancient mythology.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I realized that wont answer your question, so I typed this few minutes ago to annihilate your post...

Isnt it God is responsible as well if your really stupid and do wrong anyways?

Yes he is, thats why a stupid person in itself is wrong, but existence of "hell" is justice and "order" ( perfection)...You cant take things out of context...

Thats why if you commit wrong, and your aware of your wrong, repent and ask for forgiveness (if today u hear my words, harden not yur hearts), otherwise if you continue to be stupid, then you will enter hell. (FOR NONE KNOWS WHAT IS AHEAD OF US BUT GOD ALONE..).

What if I am not aware of my wrong? Since I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology, I don't know whether the things the Bible says are wrong, are or not. I can only rely on my own code of morality, which disagrees on many points with the Bible. That means that if the bible is true, I will go to Hell, even though I had no way of knowing that what I was doing was wrong.

And what about all those people who aren't exposed to Christianity? Why do they all go to Hell?

If Go really wants us to behave a certain way, why not just come straight out and tell us? Why do it through some obscure self-contradictory book, that most of the population will never see, and that many of those who do see it, will reasonably doubt its validity?

And once again God is also responsible for a very stupid person who went to hell, but again a stupid person in itself is a mistake, thats why hell exist for justice sake; perfection and order. In summary God didnt made a mistake, if hell didnt exist, then God made a mistake, but because hell exist for a stupid person, then thats justice and order....

Like I said above, if Hell was just removal from God, or obliteration, I could buy that, but that isn't what the Bible says.

Just as a reciever alone isnt order (may be a mistake) but with speakers, it bcomes order and perfection..........

But doesnt that make God cruel? Creating a very stupid person, then putting him on hell after creating him to be stupid?

Before making judgment on God first let us observe why people are stupid AND NOT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, FOR ALMOST ANYTHING WHEN TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT BECOMES AN ERROR...People are stupid for a reason. The fact here is, stupidity exist for pleasure/comfort sake...

You keep talking about stupidity. I am not stupid. Most of the non-Christians I know are not stupid. But according to your Bible, they are all going to Hell. Furthermore, the reason your Bible claims I am going to Hell is for my lack of belief. This has nothing to do with comfort, pleasure, or greed. It has to do with the simple lack of reliable evidence.

There is no suffering man and at the same time stupid, for if this kind of person exist, I will DENOUNCE MY FAITH AND WILL NEVER AGAIN SPEAK OF THE NAME OF GOD, FOR GOD MUST BE SO CRUEL AND I WILL BE ATHEIST RIGHT NOW, I PROMISE...But thats not the truth...

Huh? Are you claiming that stupid people don't suffer? What on Earth are you trying to say here?

By the way, the cruelty of God is neither a reason to believe, or disbelieve. If the only reason you believe in your conception of God, is because you think He is good, then you are being very irrational. And if it is not, then it would be irrational of you to abandon that belief just because you find out he is cruel.

the fact is, the reason why people are stupid, is either for money, women, attention, COMFORT, in summary, people are stupid for pleasure sake (either that pleasure and comfort comes in the role of molesting kids, stealing other ppl's property, etc. have been corrected, but doesnt want to admit he/she is wrong bcuz of the pleasure it brings, rationalizing his act). And if they live throughout their life being stupid (always being in pleasure and self-centered) then I can confidently say that it is "justice" for this kind of person to enter hell, for this person experienced pleasure already without caring how he earns it, he may earn it through killing his enemy, cheating on his wife, etc.....

Tell me, do you believe non-Christians go to Hell, or not? If so, the above is utter nonsense. If not, then you need to read the Bible sometime, because whatever it is you believe, it didn't come from there.

Obedient guys are those who are humble, patient, and thoughtfull of others. And stupid people in the other hand are the pridefull, comfort seeker, self centered, impatient, etc....This is a psychological fact, unless of course the person has some form of brain malfunction...........

So, are you saying that the mentally ill don't go to Hell, even if they don't believe in Jesus?

Like I was saying FROM THE BEGGINING, PEEPS WHO WENT TO HELL DESERVES TO GO TO HELL, AND PEEPS WHO WENT TO HEAVEN DESERVES TO GO TO HEAVEN.

And like I said, it is not possible for any human being to deserve Hell, as it is described in the Bible. Infinite punishment for a finite transgression is necessarily unjust.

But of course this is just my belief, your belief might be opposite. U might believe that rapist, killers, and child molesters doesnt deserve to be locked out for all eternity, but deserves to be released to harm the world again, or whatever your belief maybe...And if God contradicts your belief, then you call him cruel, and therefore in your world, God may indeed be cruel, thats fine with me, thats your distorted view (my opinion)....

Once again, what you are saying bears no resemblance to Christianity. According to the Bible, Heaven is loaded with rapists, killers, and child molesters. As long as they repent and accept Jesus, they get to go to Heaven. Meanwhile a decent selfless person, who just happens to be a Buddhist (for example), suffers eternal torment in Hell for not being lucky enough to be brainwashed into Christianity before he learns how to think critically.

So next time someone says "God isn't perfect, he makes mistakes because he created evil man.."

Answer them this.."Why do you think hell exist?"..........Hell exist for evil man, and evil man deserves to dwell in hell (my personal belief, as your belief could be opposite, u could b thinking that 9 months old babies are not humans but a blob of tissue, while i believe its a lie and that 9 month old babies are humans..)

Boy, you love equivocating, don't you? I guess it is easier for you to rationalize your irrational beliefs if you convince yourself that everybody who doesn't believe in your religion is a baby murdering, child-molesting, lying, thieving, murdering abortionist.

Unfortunately, most of them are just ordinary decent folk who just happen to believe a different set of mythology than you do (or none at all).

Irrelevant. I have never killed nor raped anybody. I live my life according to the Golden Rule. But according to your religion, I am going to be tortured in Hell for all of eternity, because Adam and Eve did something naughty, and because I am not convinced by the unreliable evidence that your God exists.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My religion says those who does not have pity for the starving, hungry, clothless, lonely people are going to hell whether they claim to love God or not, for whatever u do to the least of my brothers you do unto God....

Irrelevant.

Whether you come in a form of buddhism, the word must be spread, and that word is the beatitudes and virtues (commandments).

Buddhists don't have the same commandments as Christians.

And such judgment applies whether your gentile or jew, romans or asians, claim to believe in God or not.......(We can get into detail with this later...)

Have you ever read the Bible at all? Do you have any idea what it actually says?

First of all, the Bible does not just condemn liars killers and rapists to Hell. In fact, it does not condemn them to Hell at all. Have you ever read the Bible? What determines whether you go to Heaven or Hell is whether you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins. According to the Bible everybody, even a newborn infant, "deserves" Hell. Only the forgiveness of Jesus can save you.

Second, I define "cruel" to be causing pain for no purpose.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your right, sinners are not condemned, but the word "Jesus" is deeper than a white man in white suit. Jesus is the "Word", and the word is spirit, and God is spirit. So it comes down to the virtues and morality we must obey, and this "words" are not limited to those who claim to be christian, or who understands christianity....

According to the Bible, it is. I hate to shatter your illusions, but it is clear that whoever you learned about Christianity from was feeding you a load of crap. According to the Bible, the only way into Heaven is through belief in Jesus.

I already mentioned the purpose of hell, but if your "stubborn" and say that there is NO purpose, then your entitled to yuor stupidity....

Look, I hate to be rude, but this stupidity crap is starting to really piss me off. Just because somebody disagrees with your beliefs, does not make them stupid. It just so happens that the majority of the World's population doesn't subscribe to your religious beliefs. Are they all stupid? Heck, even most Christians don't buy what you are saying.

Get real. The torment Jesus received in the Bible is nothing compared to what people have been subjected to by so-called Christians for not believing. The tortures used by the Church to convert the Roman Empire to Christianity make the Crucifixion look like a walk in the park.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He was beaten...Scourged, left in prison with no food or water(except when given gall to drink..) Was abandoned by his only friends (apostles), was hated, spit at and to think about it HE WAS IN THE BEGGINING WITH THE WORLD, AND ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, but the world rejected him...

Crucified, was left to bleed to death..A SLOW DEATH........

I rather be fed by lions, or burned to death, than to endure the torture of Jesus, a special torture by the romans for he was considered to be a blasphemer, claiming to be God when there is only one God.....

Your ignorance of the Bible is showing again. When people were crucified, they were left to suffocate slowly. Jesus was stabbed with a sword, causing him to die much more quickly, and less painfully, then even an ordinary crucifixion victim.

Your ignorance of History is also showing. Stuff was done to people that make everything you described above sound good in comparison. For example, anal impaling comes to mind.

No, nothing like it. The notion that people who haven't been fortunate enough to have heard the word of Jesus won't go to Hell for not believing, is a fairly recent concept, invented to try to reconcile the modern belief that people should not be punished for things that they had no control over, with the fact that the Bible clearly states that they should. It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then your wrong, because the bible does states about someone if not knowing sin cannot be accountable for the act unless they are aware their act is a sin. It was written by St. Paul (Im not sure) and he is an example for that. He was a former christian killer, then saw the light and was converted.........

Irrelevant, because as I already pointed out, it is not your sins that get you sent to Hell. It is all a question of whether you ask for forgiveness from Jesus or not. According to the Bible, we are all doomed to Hell for the original sin, regardless of our actions in life. Even if we never commit another sin a long as we live, if we don't ask Jesus for forgiveness for original sin, we go to Hell.

I see what you mean, you dont believe Jesus even existed....But can you prove King Henry exist?

Yes. There is substantial reliable evidence that several king Henrys existed. There is absolutely no reliable evidence for God, Jesus, Moses, or any of the other magical characters in the Bible.


Ian,

Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well that argument doesn't follow. You forget that God could create us with free will.

If that God is all-knowing, then he knew when he created you what your choices would be, free-will or not. And if he is all-powerful, then he created you the way you are specifically so that you would make those choices. In that type of a scenario, your free-will only makes a difference to you. It doesn't make any difference to God, nor does it absolve him of his responsibility for your decisions, since it was ultimately his decision for you to make those decisions.

The idea that you possess free-will in such a way that your actions are not predetermined when God creates you, is absolutely contradictory to the idea that God is all-knowing and all-powerful.

Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.

Keep in mind that muscleman said nothing about God being subject to logical constraints. He claimed that God has no limitations whatsoever. I would suggest that you have him clarify whether that includes being limited by logic or not.


Dr. Stupid

[Yahzi]

Musclesforbrains
To me, it is NOT cruel that rapist, liars (abortionist), and killers are locked away for all eternity, ESPECIALLY if they are aware of their act (have been corrected but too stubborn..)
Eternal punishment for a finite act is automatically unjust. Remember the notion, "the punishment shall fit the crime?"

Consider two things:

1) even Hitler does not deserve eternal punishment. Nine million lifetimes, yes. Eternity, no. At some point you have to let go and move forward. You can't hang on to your hate forever or it will posion you.

2) If God ressurects the dead, then how bad could the murder's crime be? Certainly it can't be murder if the victim is still alive...

Evil to some, are good to others
Now you are endorsing relativistic morality? Well, at least that is honest. Good is what God says it is because God is powerful enough to make his definition stick. Ya, that's relativism.

As an athiest and a materialist, I reject relativism. I believe in objective good and morality.

Jesus experienced death, torture, rejection, he endured all the human race endured
Sodomy? Was Jesus sodomized as a ten-year old by his uncle? I know people who where...

Did Jesus spend 7 years in a hole in ground, only being taken out once a day for a beating? Was he so mistreated that he can't lift his left arm above his head anymore? I know senators who were...

Was Jesus forced to chose which of his babies to save, and which to kill? Did Jesus watch his parents and siblings be starved into skeletons, then shoved in an oven when they couldn't work any more? I know Jews who have...

Your sissy-boy of a god got off relatively easy. He didn't suffer: he took the Hollywood tour of suffering. A pinch here, a poke there, oh, look, how I've suffered - there's a fly in my cappicuino!

To assert that Jesus suffered on the cross is to trivialize the astonishing levels of torture inflicted on human beings by other human beings throughout the ages. It demonstrates both your insensitivity and your ignorance.

I rather be fed by lions, or burned to death, than to endure the torture of Jesus, a special torture by the romans for he was considered to be a blasphemer, claiming to be God when there is only one God.....
What? The Romans crucified lots of people. Even the Bible claims they crucified two theives along with Jesus. Doesn't seem all that special, does it now?

And FYI, crucifixation kills by suffocation. Yes, it's relatively slow and painful, but then, being eaten by a lion is so terrifying and painful one doesn't have time for reflection or making pithy last-minute quotes.

Also FYI, the almost certainly didn't crucify Jesus or those two thieves. Crucifiction was reserved for special crimes, to make political points. Which, of course, is why the Jews concocted the tale of crucification: because in their time it was politically significant. Of course, they bungled it by adding in a pair of ordinary thieves, but what do you expect from amateurs?

may not be exact words, but something like it.... Thats your opinion...
:D :D :D

Sorry, just that these two quotes back-to-back left me rolling.

We can be perfect when we find our ways
Now here is some deep, deep misunderstanding of human nature.

No, human beings are not capable of perfection, and requiring them to meet a standard they are physically incapable of is at best cruelty. At worst, it's a cynical ploy to keep them in permanent bondage.

***

I can deal with the spelling and the grammer, but please, learn where the apostrophe key is.

[c4ts]

The Bible does not count as the word of God. There are no words in either testament written by God. The first testament is largely revised versions of Assyrian, Sumerian, and Egyptian myths. The second testament is mostly derived from Plato, Aristotle, and Solon, but presented as arguments in favor of monotheism rather than as philosophy for philosophy's sake.

[Hazelip]

Muscleman, please learn not to attribute any more quotes to me that I did not write. It's very irritating and confusing to all involved in reading and participating in the thread.

[Doctor X]

Oh my. . . .

God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything.

Excellent!

Then, given the existence of [No! Stop him!--Ed.] young children who die of pontine tumors [No!!!!--Ed.] in a particularly vile manner [Those who have only read this about 487 times previously should skip to a more interesting response.--Ed.] which involves progressive loss of control over motor function to the extremities and face, evenually requiring a tracheostomy, though retaining the ability to feel everything and only communicate through eye movements whilst waiting to die of pneumonia or other such truly wonderous final events one can conclude the following:

1. No god exists.
2. A god exists and he is evil.
3. A god exists and he is incompetent.
4. A god exists and his is irrelevant.
5. A god exists and he is a combination of 2-4.

Taketh thine pick. . . .

--J.D.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Ian,


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Furthermore, it is not reasonable for God to create somebody a certain way, and then extract vengeance against them for the way they are. That would be like me training a dog to attack strangers on site, and then beating the dog when it attacks a friend who it has never seen before.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well that argument doesn't follow. You forget that God could create us with free will.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If that God is all-knowing, then he knew when he created you what your choices would be, free-will or not.



Indeed.



And if he is all-powerful, then he created you the way you are specifically so that you would make those choices.



No. God didn't create what we are, or at least not everything of what we are. We determine our own essence. The fact that God knows everything we will ever do is not relevant.



In that type of a scenario, your free-will only makes a difference to you. It doesn't make any difference to God, nor does it absolve him of his responsibility for your decisions, since it was ultimately his decision for you to make those decisions.



No it wasn't his decision. it is our decision.

Not that I believe in such a God. But thought I'd correct your error ;)





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quick question (and I know no points for orginality) -

Can "God" create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of couse not. This has absolute zero implications as to the question of whether an omnipotent "God" exists though.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Keep in mind that muscleman said nothing about God being subject to logical constraints.


I don't care what muscleman says. I haven't even bothered reading his posts. Alarm bells start ringing in my head whenever I see someone posting in uppercase. Just pointing out something that's all.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Doctor X
Oh my. . . .



Excellent!

Then, given the existence of [No! Stop him!--Ed.] young children who die of pontine tumors [No!!!!--Ed.] in a particularly vile manner [Those who have only read this about 487 times previously should skip to a more interesting response.--Ed.] which involves progressive loss of control over motor function to the extremities and face, evenually requiring a tracheostomy, though retaining the ability to feel everything and only communicate through eye movements whilst waiting to die of pneumonia or other such truly wonderous final events one can conclude the following:

1. No god exists.
2. A god exists and he is evil.
3. A god exists and he is incompetent.
4. A god exists and his is irrelevant.
5. A god exists and he is a combination of 2-4.

Taketh thine pick. . . .

--J.D.

That doesn't follow. You think God should have created a Universe where every sentient being is in a state of maximum logically possible "happiness"? Or are you saying that although some evil, or suffering, or lack of happiness is not inconsistant with an omnipotent omnibenevolent "God", the amount of evil which does exist is greater than what such a "God" would allow? If the latter what are your criteria for deciding this?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Legallee Insane

www.clicksmilies.com


Thanks, L.I. Great site. And I have found the perfect one for our new proselytizer.
http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/traurig/traurig023.gif

[evildave]

It's very simple.

Do I need proof not to believe in invisible pink unicorns? Leprechauns who steal lottery tickets and small machine parts?

Nope. I need some proof to entertain the ideas as "real". I have no need to put up unicorn proofing in my yard, or install leprechaun sensors in my workshop. Of course, these are only silly examples, flippantly popped off the top of my head.

Here we have a lot of big organisations competing to have me believe in their own selections of 'divine entity' and 'rules to live by' on the cosmic menu of life, so that they can get money from me and political influence through me, and I'm supposed to swallow their offerings whole without so much as a shred of evidence?

I'm supposed to just have "faith" that their word represents the opinions of a "supreme being", let alone that such a being exists???

Why should I fall for these particular scams when there are so many bridges and national monuments for sale?

Because it's safer to believe? In which one? Vishnu? Krishna? JHVH? Allah? Oden? Zeus? Hera? Saturn? Ra? Bob? Eris? Sparky the Wonder God? (And don't you DARE speak Sparky the Wonder God's name incorrectly!)

I think I'll stick with "I don't know, and I don't care... but I'll just assume you're full of poop, anyway."

[Loki]

Ian,

God didn't create what we are, or at least not everything of what we are. We determine our own essence.
But everything (that's everything) is created by such a god - he set up the "essence factory" that creates human "essences" in their "initial state", he created *all* the environments that interact with "essences" (both physical and non-physical, if you need to differentiate), and he designed the nature of essences. He did all of this knowing fully what the outcomes would be, at all times. The nature of your essence may be a mystery to you, but not to the designer.

Since he created your initial state, all your interactions, and the nature of your essence, in what sense are you exercising "libertarian Free Will" to "determine your own essence"?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian
No it wasn't his decision. it is our decision.

Then you agree in this instance, where a decision is made, we are more powerful than God?

[Mephistopheles]

Originally posted by evildave
It's very simple.

Do I need proof not to believe in invisible pink unicorns? Leprechauns who steal lottery tickets and small machine parts?

Nope. I need some proof to entertain the ideas as "real". I have no need to put up unicorn proofing in my yard, or install leprechaun sensors in my workshop.


I agree: This is the crystalline point. Theists have the burden of proof. Muscleman, you have to prove that God exists. If I take your word for that without proof, I'd be guilty of the worst kind of gullibility.

And Muscleman, please don't resort to the fallacious "It's in the Bible" argument; the fact that something is written somewhere proves nothing.

Oh, and you might want to refrain from insulting the intelligence of members of this forum by intimating that they might be young or stupid. You've done this repeatedly. I know that some of them treat your arguments flippantly, but they've dealt with your ilk before: People that spend so much time inventing justifications for their kooky beliefs that they never evaluate their ideas against the template of reality. Go back to square one: what do you really know, and how do you know it?

_________________________

Ye blind guides, which strain at
a gnat, and swallow a camel

Matthew 23:24

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles
[B]

I agree: This is the crystalline point. Theists have the burden of proof.



And as I have said time after time after time, I utterly reject this assertion. It is no good you and other atheists simply supposing this to be true when probably most theists suppose it to be false. No, you need to provide arguments. If you believe that atheism, together with the family of beliefs associated with atheism, are a prima facie more reasonable position to hold than the alternative idea that that there is an ultimate teleological goal to our existence together with its implication of some sort of universal metamind, then let's hear your arguments to that effect.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Tricky
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
No it wasn't his decision. it is our decision.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Then you agree in this instance, where a decision is made, we are more powerful than God?

No

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Loki

II
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God didn't create what we are, or at least not everything of what we are. We determine our own essence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Loki
But everything (that's everything) is created by such a god - he set up the "essence factory" that creates human "essences" in their "initial state",



First of all I don't believe in such a conception of God that we're discussing. But bearing in mind that caveat I would say that we should hold that God does not determine our essence, rather we determine our essences.



he created *all* the environments that interact with "essences" (both physical and non-physical, if you need to differentiate), and he designed the nature of essences.



He designed the nature of essences? What do you mean?



He did all of this knowing fully what the outcomes would be, at all times. The nature of your essence may be a mystery to you, but not to the designer.



Maybe so, but so what?



Since he created your initial state, all your interactions, and the nature of your essence, in what sense are you exercising "libertarian Free Will" to "determine your own essence"?



One could say that God created us without holding the view that he created our initial state if by an initial state you mean our essence. Our essence is what we choose to be. One could hold that God doesn't make us be good, evil or whatever. We determine our own essence, our own actions.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles


I agree: This is the crystalline point. Theists have the burden of proof. Muscleman, you have to prove that God exists. If I take your word for that without proof, I'd be guilty of the worst kind of gullibility.

And he shouldn't try to shift the burden and demand that you prove a negative as though the assertion were positive. I've seen Franko and Jedi Knight do it all the time. It's really annoying and it doesn't get anywhere or prove anything.

[muscleman]

woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......

[Loki]

Ian,

He designed the nature of essences? What do you mean?

Your essence influences (or makes ?) your decisons. How does 'it' operate? Seems there are 4 choices :

1. Strictly deterministic.
2. True Random.
3. Some mix of #1 and #2
4. Unknownable - the manner of operation of the will is not any of the first 3.

You clearly reject #1, and seem unhappy with #2 (and that rules out #3). That only leaves #4, doesn't it?

Well, simply put, you don't know how your 'essence' interacts with your decision making, but the 3-O god does - he designed it.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by muscleman
woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......
That will be interesting to see. So many have come here and claimed proof, and none have been able to deliver. Could it be that you are the one to break the trend? We all wait with bated breath. So far, Stimpson has been countering every one of your points, while you barely address his.

Just a few hints, though, if you wish to be taken seriously.
The caps lock thing is rude. It is the equivalent of shouting. If you cannot make your points without shouting, then your points must not be able to stand on their own.
Stop calling names. Saying people are stupid or childish is the resort of a poor debator. If you can show that a person is foolish, then it will be obvious to everyone, and insults will be unnecessary.
Practice your writing skills. Although bad grammer and spelling do not mean a person is unintelligent, it looks as if the person writing is not thinking clearly. Of course, allowances are made for those for whom English is not a native language, but I get the impression that this is not the case here. I recommend using a program with a spell checker (like Microsoft Word) and typing your posts into a document and checking spelling. Then, simply cut and paste the post. Also, look for subtle things that the spell checker won't catch, like the difference between "your" (belonging to you) and "you're" (you are) as well as there, their and they're. Learn the use of the apostrophe. All of us make mistakes, but when so many are made in such a short time, the reader loses respect for the writer.
Don't count on the Bible carrying much weight here. While full of interesting stuff, there is no evidence that it is divinely inspired. No, we won't take your word for it. No, we won't take anyone else's word for it. Show us some evidence from other sources.
Be humble. A truly wise person knows he is capable of error. The least believable people are those who deny the possibility of being wrong. Virtually all of the atheists here admit that it is possible that there could be a God. Can you admit the possibility that there is not?

[evildave]

Originally posted by muscleman
woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......

Do get back to us. I await your proof of why we should believe in invisible pink unicorns BY DEFAULT.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
muscleman,
Why not?

God is all knowing, all knowing in a sense that everything he created, their beggining, and end, he has control over. It is ABSURD that God will design sub-atomic particles, molecules, etc. and not know how it works, for if he does not know how it works, then he will not have control to it..
Again God is all knowing, but God doesnt know everything, because there is no evreything, for everything implies limit and God is eternal. You can never learn enough, or know enough, or think enough. There is no end to size, shape, ideas, thoughts, degree of colors, etc. Got it?

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Can you explain how the concept of omnibenevolence is even meaningful, when different people disagree on what is "good" and what is "evil"? Saying that God is omnibenevolent ends up meaning nothing more than that you define "good" to mean "whatever God is". It renders the whole concept of good and evil meaningless.

Thats why we need a church, a foundation (but the bible alone is not "complete".). The bible is over 1000 yrs, that cant be applicable for today..(This is another topic...) As there is government authority, there also must be spiritual authority (separation of church and state.) Is there a true church? There is, but its another topic..


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

And once again, you have completely ignored my question. Nothing you just said has any relevance whatsoever to my questions.

Maybe you need to look deeper into what I typed....Need any help?

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

OK. But this still doesn't address the issue of why such an all-powerful Deity would choose to torture people for simply being the way he created them. I could see separating them from the good people, or even destroying them, but why torture them? What's the point?

God made a covenant with man, designed to live for eternity. Man in the other hand can be eternally happy, or eternally sad. I already mentioned to you earlier that people who went to hell desreve to be there, for their stiff necked ways, and you are entitled to believe otherwise...
God cannot break his covenant and make man's soul mortal, for that will violate the law of creation, which is we are created in His image (again he cant break the covenant.). So now you know that your soul is eternal, why not change your ways and spread the word instead? Are you stiff necked and continu your FLAWED arguments? You cant tell God what to do you know....Face it, energy cannot be destroyed scientifically speaking..."The world can destroy my flesh, but not my soul..."

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

What if I am not aware of my wrong? Since I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology, I don't know whether the things the Bible says are wrong, are or not. I can only rely on my own code of morality, which disagrees on many points with the Bible. That means that if the bible is true, I will go to Hell, even though I had no way of knowing that what I was doing was wrong.

If you disagree with certain virtues of the bible (or beatitudes), I believe you have been misguided, or taught wrongly by ignorant guy like you. And if your own personal morality have been challenged, and you have been flawed many times, and learned you're obviously wrong, AND STILL INSIST doing what you do because its comfortable to be atheist, and it feels good, then yes you are going to hell....

If u didnt know it is wrong, and your convinced your morality is fine, and so far noone have proven you wrong. Then in your own temple (your body, the temple of God.) you cannot be accountable for that in which u didnt know......Plain and simple, God is just.....For greater gifts comes forth greater responsibilities....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

And what about all those people who aren't exposed to Christianity? Why do they all go to Hell?

LOL, whoever said they are going to hell?
Jesus said I am the way, truth, and life, noone can come to the father but through me...

But who is Jesus? The white man with long blond hair and wears white suit floating in the air? LOL, you need to look deeper child..

Jesus is the "Word became flesh"...
"My WORDS are Spirit and LIFE"- Jesus....God is Spirit- John..

What Jesus is trying to say is the beatitudes, virtues, and commandments is the way the truth and life, THE WORD..If u love, if yur patient, generous, who feeds the hungry, visit the lonely, forgiving, etc. YOU WORSHIP GOD WHETHER YOU CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN OR NOT...This is a fact.......

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

If God really wants us to behave a certain way, why not just come straight out and tell us? Why do it through some obscure self-contradictory book, that most of the population will never see, and that many of those who do see it, will reasonably doubt its validity?

First of all I see nothing contradictory in the bible, only if u take things out of context, and if u used it as a scientific book, but this is another topic......
He did, through Jesus. And why do u reject him? Because your an abortionist? A pervert? Gay lover? I see no reason why a virtuous man will reject Christ, unless of course they just claim to be virtuous, BUT A FAT LIAR...
Skepticism is good, but humility along with it as well.."Innocent as a dove, cunning as a serpent"..
God speaks in parables and symbols, so that if someone wants to really follow him, then they can come forward and seek Him, the meaning to it.."Seek and u shall find"..God is not going to force you to follow Him...
The population that never see the bible is not accountable for what is written in the bible......

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Like I said above, if Hell was just removal from God, or obliteration, I could buy that, but that isn't what the Bible says.


Well to dwell with Satan, is to dwell in torment..You follow him, u go home with him.........You made your choice...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

You keep talking about stupidity. I am not stupid. Most of the non-Christians I know are not stupid. But according to your Bible, they are all going to Hell. Furthermore, the reason your Bible claims I am going to Hell is for my lack of belief. This has nothing to do with comfort, pleasure, or greed. It has to do with the simple lack of reliable evidence.


Misconception and confusion. I am not saying your stupid, Im saying that stupid "stiff necked" ppl are the ones going to hell for they aleady know they are wrong, but still insist in their ways thus being accountable for what they do, their arguments r flawed and still insist, BECUZ OF THEIR PRIDE,COMFORT, AND PLEASURE...

Again, non-christians or protestant christians are NOT going to hell. (Although there are some that have this belief..) The thief crucified next to Christ didnt go to hell, u look at the exterior, thats human judgment, God judges deeper than that......

We are judged by our virtues, virtuous that are given by God alone (through christ; christianity..). The closer u are to the virtues (loving enemy, forgiving, etc.) the closer u are to God, whether u carry the title buddhism or not...U look at it so external, that u make it sound like all christians r going to heaven, when the truth is many of them are immoral.....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Huh? Are you claiming that stupid people don't suffer? What on Earth are you trying to say here?

Do you need help understanding what Im trying to say? I said ppl are stupid for a reason. When someone knows they are wrong, but they insist doing what they do knowing well that they are wrong, they are NOT doing it for suffering sake, but theyre doing it for pleasure or comfort sake..

An example is abortion.. Many many many government officials now that 9 month old babies are human, but they insist that it is just a blob of tissue because that way they will have more money, more pleasure and more comfort, so bye bye to the kids. It's people like these that deserves to go to hell without a doubt..Whether they claim to be christian or not, they know they do wrong, but they do wrong anyways, AND INSIST THAT THEY ARE RIGHT........

THIS IS COMMON SENSE, u need more explaining?

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

By the way, the cruelty of God is neither a reason to believe, or disbelieve. If the only reason you believe in your conception of God, is because you think He is good, then you are being very irrational. And if it is not, then it would be irrational of you to abandon that belief just because you find out he is cruel.

My reason of first believing is that I learned God is good. He cares for the poor, the defenseless (such as the slaves;israelites.), hungry, etc.
God maybe cruel to others because they are rapist, child molesters, etc. and insist that what their doing is right, and why are u defending them? BECAUSE YOU ARE LIKE THEM?? Im serious...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Tell me, do you believe non-Christians go to Hell, or not? If so, the above is utter nonsense. If not, then you need to read the Bible sometime, because whatever it is you believe, it didn't come from there.

Christian- student of christ/disciples of christ... Is deeper than a title, YOU ARE SO IMMATURE IN THIS TOPIC..
Just because Hitler claimed to be a christian (just an example), it doesnt mean he is a christian..

Like I was saying, to be christian means to be following the virtues, whether u claim to be christian or not...U judge like one of my high school students, no offense, but I thought an adult like u should figure this out by now.....(Thats why Im here, for intelligent debate...)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

So, are you saying that the mentally ill don't go to Hell, even if they don't believe in Jesus?

If a blind deaf man walked and stepped on a button which triggered nuclear explosion killing 2 billion ppl, he wasnt aware of what he is doing, he is not accountable for it. ITS ALL ABOUT THE INTENTION AND AWARENESS....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

And like I said, it is not possible for any human being to deserve Hell, as it is described in the Bible. Infinite punishment for a finite transgression is necessarily unjust.

Thats your opinion, your views, your personal outlook. I see it differently, since our soul is eternal. I say give the man what he desires, if he desires to be with the devil, let him go with him... And satan, in case if u didnt know, will torture you..
Now that u know, why dont u change your ways? Your accountable for this knowledge now......Others doesnt know, and maybe spared...Im not God, Im not the judge, he is better judge than you and I.....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Once again, what you are saying bears no resemblance to Christianity. According to the Bible, Heaven is loaded with rapists, killers, and child molesters. As long as they repent and accept Jesus, they get to go to Heaven. Meanwhile a decent selfless person, who just happens to be a Buddhist (for example), suffers eternal torment in Hell for not being lucky enough to be brainwashed into Christianity before he learns how to think critically.


Poor you..You probably have been surrounded by those PROTESTANT who thinks u can do whatever you want and whatever feels good then at the end, just say "Oh Lord, forgive me for killing 1,000 babies and raping 1,0000 children" then afterwards, God will spare them and put them in heaven... Your view in christianity is DISTORTED, probably brainwashed by some PROTEST- ANTS who claim catholics are the devils in the flesh, and that the catholic church is evil bcuz the pope and priest commits mistakes..To me, yur another child to talk to, but ill carry my cross......

God judges the soul of man, for all I know u could be more christian than I am, or some buddhist, or even a killer could be more virtous than I am (because he cherishes the Word given to him, and first unaware that killing is wrong) meanwhile I just take the virtues for granted and break some anyways.....

YOU JUDGE SO EXTERNAL, LEAVE THAT TO GOD, He judges differently than you, you judge by titles, while he judges the heart....


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Boy, you love equivocating, don't you? I guess it is easier for you to rationalize your irrational beliefs if you convince yourself that everybody who doesn't believe in your religion is a baby murdering, child-molesting, lying, thieving, murdering abortionist.

Unfortunately, most of them are just ordinary decent folk who just happen to believe a different set of mythology than you do (or none at all).

Poor you. I dont think that way child... Christianity as mythology? hahahahaha, this is another topic...


Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Buddhists don't have the same commandments as Christians.

Not accountable, unless they know they are wrong and insist doing wrong...

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Have you ever read the Bible at all? Do you have any idea what it actually says?
:) Have I read the bible? Why dont u speak for yourself....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

According to the Bible, it is. I hate to shatter your illusions, but it is clear that whoever you learned about Christianity from was feeding you a load of crap. According to the Bible, the only way into Heaven is through belief in Jesus.

You are the one being fed with alot of crap. I am a catechist teacher. Also a student in a junior college.....:)

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Look, I hate to be rude, but this stupidity crap is starting to really piss me off. Just because somebody disagrees with your beliefs, does not make them stupid.

I never said those who dont believe christianity are stupid. I only said they are stupid if theyr arguments have been flawed, know they are wrong, but insist anyways......

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Your ignorance of the Bible is showing again. When people were crucified, they were left to suffocate slowly. Jesus was stabbed with a sword, causing him to die much more quickly, and less painfully, then even an ordinary crucifixion victim.

He was there for a while before they stabbed him with the sword. An ordinary crucifixion victim? LOL, yeah, so ordinary it became a symbol worldwide, oh by luck? Another topic....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Your ignorance of History is also showing. Stuff was done to people that make everything you described above sound good in comparison. For example, anal impaling comes to mind.

Thats yur opinion, yur the ignorant one. Were you there? Has it been done to you? How would u know one is worst than the other? Think before u talk ok?

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Irrelevant, because as I already pointed out, it is not your sins that get you sent to Hell. It is all a question of whether you ask for forgiveness from Jesus or not. According to the Bible, we are all doomed to Hell for the original sin, regardless of our actions in life. Even if we never commit another sin a long as we live, if we don't ask Jesus for forgiveness for original sin, we go to Hell.

whoever told u that? Some narrow minded bum in the corner who claim to be a christian? Your being fed with crappy thinking...

We are judged and weighed in our life.. Some ppl who r born with original sin are spared with their acts, some are not. Noone can generalize that all christians are going to hell, or all buddhist are going to hell...YOUR TOO UNEDUCATED IN THIS REALM....

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Yes. There is substantial reliable evidence that several king Henrys existed. There is absolutely no reliable evidence for God, Jesus, Moses, or any of the other magical characters in the Bible.


I will annihilate you with this later, but this is another topic......

[Loki]

muscleman,

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat

Yes. There is substantial reliable evidence that several king Henrys existed. There is absolutely no reliable evidence for God, Jesus, Moses, or any of the other magical characters in the Bible.

Originally posted bymuscleman
I will annihilate you with this later, but this is another topic......
Muscleman - quit while you're only mildly embarasing. No, wait, don't quit! This should be good...

I take it from your replies to Stimpy that you are strongly catholic? Good ... need a few more in here!

[Underemployed]

PROTEST-ANTS....! I love it! Has a similar ring to A-Theists.

Dear Muscleman, thank you for coming here. Us heathens, infidels and assorted hellbound ne'er-do-wells love nothing more than a true believer.

Your take on Christianity is a very modern one, yes? Very spiritual, very inclusive. I think it has a lot going for it, except you might have to tone down your anti-abortionist anti-gay sentiments to go for the mainstream audience.

You have made a refreshing break from tradition by hinting that the Bible may not be releveant today - does this mean you hate gays just as a matter of opinion?

For what it's worth, I actually agree with you on the free will topic. True free will does not preclude the existence of an all-powerful deity. But it cannot be said to prove it either, can it? Thus we are left with the time-honoured argument between the believer and the non-believer. Stalemate with both sides claiming a victory.

I would rather be a good person because I wanted to be, not because I felt I had to be on pain of eternal damnation. What if you denied your true, dark, nature and led an outwardly blameless life? Would God judge your unexpressed desires or your actions?

(Apologies to Bill Watterson as that idea is from a Calvin & Hobbes strip)

[Loki]

muscleman,

Just had to pick up a quick point here....

Like I was saying, to be christian means to be following the virtues, whether u claim to be christian or not...

ITS ALL ABOUT THE INTENTION AND AWARENESS
You are being very clear here - but the obvious question is "what are the virtues"?

Is abortion breaking a virtue? If so, which one? What is your evidence in support of a "no-abortion" virtue?

Is slave-owning breaking a virtue? If so, which one? What is your evidence in support of a "no-slavery" virtue?

Is homosexuality breaking a virtue? If so, which one? What is your evidence in support of a "no-homosexuality" virtue?

Is birth control (condoms) breaking a virtue? If so, which one? What is your evidence in support of a "no-condoms" virtue?

Is human cloning breaking a virtue? If so, which one? What is your evidence in support of a "no-cloning" virtue?

Can I assume you rely upon the catholic tradition of Scripture and Papal Infallibility to provide guidance on matters of virtue?

One last question, going direct to your opening comments - can you explain in your own words the apparent paradoxes implicit in the Immaculate concept and Mary's Free Will decision to become the mother of Jesus?

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Tricky
Virtually all of the atheists here admit that it is possible that there could be a God. Yes, but that word "possible" is interesting isn't it? What...
1% possible
0.1% possible?
0.000000000000000000000000001% possible?
as possible as faeries at the bottom of my garden?
as possible as leprecauns?
The fact is that from a practical point of view, for an atheist, God does not exist.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Ian,

And if he is all-powerful, then he created you the way you are specifically so that you would make those choices.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. God didn't create what we are, or at least not everything of what we are. We determine our own essence. The fact that God knows everything we will ever do is not relevant.

No, but the fact that He is all-powerful is. Remember that muscleman has claimed that everything was not only created by God, but created exactly the way He wanted it to be.

In that type of a scenario, your free-will only makes a difference to you. It doesn't make any difference to God, nor does it absolve him of his responsibility for your decisions, since it was ultimately his decision for you to make those decisions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No it wasn't his decision. it is our decision.

Not that I believe in such a God. But thought I'd correct your error

But muscleman has stated that he does, and it is his conception of God that I am talking about.

I don't care what muscleman says. I haven't even bothered reading his posts. Alarm bells start ringing in my head whenever I see someone posting in uppercase. Just pointing out something that's all.

Well, there's the problem. I, for one, am not talking about generic conceptions of God, or even generic conceptions of omnipotent Gods. My statements were directed specifically at the conception of God that muscleman has presented. If you read my posts without reading what they are responses to, then you are taking my posts out of context.


muscleman,

woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......

Your arrogance is truly astounding, especially coming from somebody who does not even seem to have a basic understanding of his own religion.

God cannot be limited. For if he is limited, then he cannot be in control with everything...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why not?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God is all knowing, all knowing in a sense that everything he created, their beggining, and end, he has control over. It is ABSURD that God will design sub-atomic particles, molecules, etc. and not know how it works, for if he does not know how it works, then he will not have control to it..
Again God is all knowing, but God doesnt know everything, because there is no evreything, for everything implies limit and God is eternal. You can never learn enough, or know enough, or think enough. There is no end to size, shape, ideas, thoughts, degree of colors, etc. Got it?

Sorry, that does not logically follow. You are asserting that God must have unlimited power in order for him to be in control of everything, but that is only true if everything that exists is unlimited. i don't suppose you have any evidence for this assertion?

Can you explain how the concept of omnibenevolence is even meaningful, when different people disagree on what is "good" and what is "evil"? Saying that God is omnibenevolent ends up meaning nothing more than that you define "good" to mean "whatever God is". It renders the whole concept of good and evil meaningless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats why we need a church, a foundation (but the bible alone is not "complete".). The bible is over 1000 yrs, that cant be applicable for today..(This is another topic...) As there is government authority, there also must be spiritual authority (separation of church and state.) Is there a true church? There is, but its another topic..

Once again, completely irrelevant. Is there an absolute good, or not? If so, then is God "all-good"? If he is, then your conception of absolute good is, by modern standards, horribly immoral. Your God is, by human standards, evil. Redefining "good" to mean "godlike" doesn't change that fact.

Of course, since your religion holds that all men are evil, I guess this makes some sort of twisted sense. As I said before, the fact that the God described in the Bible is evil doesn't prove he doesn't exist. But I don't have to prove that he doesn't exist, any more than I have to prove that Zeus doesn't exist. No logical reason, or reliable evidence, has ever been presented to support the assertion that your God does exist.

And once again, you have completely ignored my question. Nothing you just said has any relevance whatsoever to my questions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe you need to look deeper into what I typed....Need any help?

Perhaps you should learn to communicate better before you start condescendingly implying that my inability to see the point you claim to have made is due to my lack of comprehension. Your writing is nearly incomprehensible to begin with.

OK. But this still doesn't address the issue of why such an all-powerful Deity would choose to torture people for simply being the way he created them. I could see separating them from the good people, or even destroying them, but why torture them? What's the point?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God made a covenant with man, designed to live for eternity. Man in the other hand can be eternally happy, or eternally sad. I already mentioned to you earlier that people who went to hell desreve to be there, for their stiff necked ways, and you are entitled to believe otherwise...

You didn't answer my question. You keep repeating over and over again that those people deserve it. I am asking you why they deserve it, and indeed, how anyone could deserve infinite torture for a finite transgression. Can you answer that question, or is your answer simply "because the Bible says so"?

God cannot break his covenant and make man's soul mortal, for that will violate the law of creation, which is we are created in His image (again he cant break the covenant.). So now you know that your soul is eternal, why not change your ways and spread the word instead?

I don't know that my soul is eternal, or even that I have one. Your telling me it is so doesn't mean jack squat, if you cannot back up that assertion with some kind of evidence.

Are you stiff necked and continu your FLAWED arguments? You cant tell God what to do you know....Face it, energy cannot be destroyed scientifically speaking..."The world can destroy my flesh, but not my soul..."

No, I am just not gullible enough to blindly accept your mythology without evidence. Don't you see the difference?

What if I am not aware of my wrong? Since I don't believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology, I don't know whether the things the Bible says are wrong, are or not. I can only rely on my own code of morality, which disagrees on many points with the Bible. That means that if the bible is true, I will go to Hell, even though I had no way of knowing that what I was doing was wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you disagree with certain virtues of the bible (or beatitudes), I believe you have been misguided, or taught wrongly by ignorant guy like you.

That's rich, you calling me ignorant. Unlike you, I have actually read the Bible, and I know what it really says. That is precisely why I know that it is unreliable mythology.

And if your own personal morality have been challenged, and you have been flawed many times, and learned you're obviously wrong, AND STILL INSIST doing what you do because its comfortable to be atheist, and it feels good, then yes you are going to hell....

According to your Bible, I am going to Hell even if I don't know what I am doing is wrong. That is what your accursed book says. learn what you are talking about, or go argue with people who know as little about the subject as you do.

If u didnt know it is wrong, and your convinced your morality is fine, and so far noone have proven you wrong. Then in your own temple (your body, the temple of God.) you cannot be accountable for that in which u didnt know......Plain and simple, God is just.....For greater gifts comes forth greater responsibilities....

That's all fine and dandy, except that that is not what the Bible says. In fact, I know many Christians who would claim that you are going to Hell, just for believing such a thing.

And what about all those people who aren't exposed to Christianity? Why do they all go to Hell?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL, whoever said they are going to hell?

The Bible.

Jesus said I am the way, truth, and life, noone can come to the father but through me...

But who is Jesus? The white man with long blond hair and wears white suit floating in the air? LOL, you need to look deeper child..

Jesus is the "Word became flesh"...
"My WORDS are Spirit and LIFE"- Jesus....God is Spirit- John..

Exactly, the Word. Without the Word, you are damned, regardless of your actions and beliefs.

What Jesus is trying to say is the beatitudes, virtues, and commandments is the way the truth and life, THE WORD..If u love, if yur patient, generous, who feeds the hungry, visit the lonely, forgiving, etc. YOU WORSHIP GOD WHETHER YOU CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN OR NOT...This is a fact.......

No, it is not. This is your twisted interpretation of what the Bible says, and it bears no resemblance to what the Bible actually does say.

If God really wants us to behave a certain way, why not just come straight out and tell us? Why do it through some obscure self-contradictory book, that most of the population will never see, and that many of those who do see it, will reasonably doubt its validity?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all I see nothing contradictory in the bible, only if u take things out of context, and if u used it as a scientific book, but this is another topic......

You love that context ploy, don't you? The proper context is what the people who wrote the Bible intended. Guess who those people were? The early Catholic Church. And guess what they meant by it? I'll give you a hint. It isn't any of the flowery hippie crap that you are describing.

He did, through Jesus. And why do u reject him?

Why do you reject Muhammad, or L. Ron Hubbard, or Buddha? There is no more evidence that the Bible is the truth than there is for any other religion. What's more, as I have already pointed out at least twice, most of the World's population has never read the Word!

your an abortionist? A pervert? Gay lover? I see no reason why a virtuous man will reject Christ, unless of course they just claim to be virtuous, BUT A FAT LIAR...

I reject Jesus for lack of evidence. By the way, your intolerance is showing. Tell me something, do gay people go to Hell, even if they don't realize that God hates fags?

Skepticism is good, but humility along with it as well.."Innocent as a dove, cunning as a serpent"..

Humility? Do you mean like not arrogantly assuming that what you were fortunate enough to have been indoctrinated into the "one true religion", and that the majority of the population of the planet is deluded fools who should no better?

God speaks in parables and symbols, so that if someone wants to really follow him, then they can come forward and seek Him, the meaning to it.."Seek and u shall find"..God is not going to force you to follow Him...

********. The false profits speak in parables and symbols, in order to make it more difficult to demonstrate that they are liars. The Bible was written by men, not God.

Like I said above, if Hell was just removal from God, or obliteration, I could buy that, but that isn't what the Bible says.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well to dwell with Satan, is to dwell in torment..You follow him, u go home with him.........You made your choice...

Ever read Genesis? You know, where God lies to Adam and Eve, and Satan tells them the truth?

Oh well, I don't believe in Satan either.

You keep talking about stupidity. I am not stupid. Most of the non-Christians I know are not stupid. But according to your Bible, they are all going to Hell. Furthermore, the reason your Bible claims I am going to Hell is for my lack of belief. This has nothing to do with comfort, pleasure, or greed. It has to do with the simple lack of reliable evidence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Misconception and confusion. I am not saying your stupid, Im saying that stupid "stiff necked" ppl are the ones going to hell for they aleady know they are wrong, but still insist in their ways thus being accountable for what they do, their arguments r flawed and still insist, BECUZ OF THEIR PRIDE,COMFORT, AND PLEASURE...

Read the Bible. This is pointless if you are just going to make up your religion as you go.

Again, non-christians or protestant christians are NOT going to hell. (Although there are some that have this belief..) The thief crucified next to Christ didnt go to hell, u look at the exterior, thats human judgment, God judges deeper than that......

We are judged by our virtues, virtuous that are given by God alone (through christ; christianity..). The closer u are to the virtues (loving enemy, forgiving, etc.) the closer u are to God, whether u carry the title buddhism or not...U look at it so external, that u make it sound like all christians r going to heaven, when the truth is many of them are immoral.....

Read the book. What you are saying is simply not what the bible says. It is not even close.

By the way, the cruelty of God is neither a reason to believe, or disbelieve. If the only reason you believe in your conception of God, is because you think He is good, then you are being very irrational. And if it is not, then it would be irrational of you to abandon that belief just because you find out he is cruel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My reason of first believing is that I learned God is good. He cares for the poor, the defenseless (such as the slaves;israelites.), hungry, etc.
God maybe cruel to others because they are rapist, child molesters, etc. and insist that what their doing is right, and why are u defending them? BECAUSE YOU ARE LIKE THEM?? Im serious...

In the Old Testament, God orders the Israelites to murder innocent women and children. He orders his followers to rip the unborn children from the bodies of their living mothers. He orders them to commit rape, theft, and murder. Later on, he murders innocent people himself. Is this what you call good?

The population that never see the bible is not accountable for what is written in the bible......

Nice theory. Unfortunately, the Bible disagrees with you. According to the bible, those who never hear of Christ burn in Hell.

Tell me, do you believe non-Christians go to Hell, or not? If so, the above is utter nonsense. If not, then you need to read the Bible sometime, because whatever it is you believe, it didn't come from there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christian- student of christ/disciples of christ... Is deeper than a title, YOU ARE SO IMMATURE IN THIS TOPIC..
Just because Hitler claimed to be a christian (just an example), it doesnt mean he is a christian..

Like I was saying, to be christian means to be following the virtues, whether u claim to be christian or not...U judge like one of my high school students, no offense, but I thought an adult like u should figure this out by now.....(Thats why Im here, for intelligent debate...)

That's pretty funny. It is becoming painfully obvious that you don't have the slightest idea what intelligent debate is.

So, are you saying that the mentally ill don't go to Hell, even if they don't believe in Jesus?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a blind deaf man walked and stepped on a button which triggered nuclear explosion killing 2 billion ppl, he wasnt aware of what he is doing, he is not accountable for it. ITS ALL ABOUT THE INTENTION AND AWARENESS....

Your beliefs bear no resemblance to what the Bible says. Read the Bible and get back to me.

And like I said, it is not possible for any human being to deserve Hell, as it is described in the Bible. Infinite punishment for a finite transgression is necessarily unjust.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats your opinion, your views, your personal outlook. I see it differently, since our soul is eternal. I say give the man what he desires, if he desires to be with the devil, let him go with him... And satan, in case if u didnt know, will torture you..
Now that u know, why dont u change your ways? Your accountable for this knowledge now......Others doesnt know, and maybe spared...Im not God, Im not the judge, he is better judge than you and I.....

Because I don't know. All I know is that you believe. Loonies tell me crap like this all the time. Why should I believe your crap is the truth?

Once again, what you are saying bears no resemblance to Christianity. According to the Bible, Heaven is loaded with rapists, killers, and child molesters. As long as they repent and accept Jesus, they get to go to Heaven. Meanwhile a decent selfless person, who just happens to be a Buddhist (for example), suffers eternal torment in Hell for not being lucky enough to be brainwashed into Christianity before he learns how to think critically.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Poor you..You probably have been surrounded by those PROTESTANT who thinks u can do whatever you want and whatever feels good then at the end, just say "Oh Lord, forgive me for killing 1,000 babies and raping 1,0000 children" then afterwards, God will spare them and put them in heaven... Your view in christianity is DISTORTED, probably brainwashed by some PROTEST- ANTS who claim catholics are the devils in the flesh, and that the catholic church is evil bcuz the pope and priest commits mistakes..To me, yur another child to talk to, but ill carry my cross......

Actually, I come from a Catholic background. But what I am telling you is based on what the Bible says, not on what some priest told me. I ask you again, have you ever actually read the bible?

God judges the soul of man, for all I know u could be more christian than I am, or some buddhist, or even a killer could be more virtous than I am (because he cherishes the Word given to him, and first unaware that killing is wrong) meanwhile I just take the virtues for granted and break some anyways.....

YOU JUDGE SO EXTERNAL, LEAVE THAT TO GOD, He judges differently than you, you judge by titles, while he judges the heart....

You are judging too. Just read your own posts. You are extremely judgmental. You are also a hypocrite, because you keep going on and on about being humble and virtuous, yet you are extremely arrogant and intolerant.

Have you ever read the Bible at all? Do you have any idea what it actually says?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have I read the bible? Why dont u speak for yourself....

I already told you that I have. Why are you avoiding the question? Could it be because you don't want to admit that your beliefs about Christianity are based entirely on what your religious leaders tell you, and on your own wishful thinking?

Read the book. It may surprise you. It sure as Hell surprised me.

According to the Bible, it is. I hate to shatter your illusions, but it is clear that whoever you learned about Christianity from was feeding you a load of crap. According to the Bible, the only way into Heaven is through belief in Jesus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are the one being fed with alot of crap. I am a catechist teacher. Also a student in a junior college.....

Am I supposed to be impressed? You still haven't answered the question.

Your ignorance of the Bible is showing again. When people were crucified, they were left to suffocate slowly. Jesus was stabbed with a sword, causing him to die much more quickly, and less painfully, then even an ordinary crucifixion victim.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He was there for a while before they stabbed him with the sword. An ordinary crucifixion victim? LOL, yeah, so ordinary it became a symbol worldwide, oh by luck? Another topic....

Luck? Yeah, I guess you could call the Emperor of the largest empire the World has ever seen converting to Christianity, and then forcing the conversion of all of Europe through murder and torture, to be luck.

Your ignorance of History is also showing. Stuff was done to people that make everything you described above sound good in comparison. For example, anal impaling comes to mind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats yur opinion, yur the ignorant one. Were you there? Has it been done to you? How would u know one is worst than the other? Think before u talk ok?

Take your own advice, buddy. Were you there? has it been done to you? Your hypocracy is showing again.

Irrelevant, because as I already pointed out, it is not your sins that get you sent to Hell. It is all a question of whether you ask for forgiveness from Jesus or not. According to the Bible, we are all doomed to Hell for the original sin, regardless of our actions in life. Even if we never commit another sin a long as we live, if we don't ask Jesus for forgiveness for original sin, we go to Hell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

whoever told u that? Some narrow minded bum in the corner who claim to be a christian? Your being fed with crappy thinking...

Nobody told me it. I read the Bible for myself. It's all there, in black and white.

We are judged and weighed in our life.. Some ppl who r born with original sin are spared with their acts, some are not. Noone can generalize that all christians are going to hell, or all buddhist are going to hell...YOUR TOO UNEDUCATED IN THIS REALM....

I am not the one who is uneducated here. Read the Book.

Dr. Stupid

[Win]

Stimp:

I'm surprised you're, er, spending your time on this. Thomas Aquinas this guy isn't. ;)

BTB, I'll get back to you on the other things later this week; I've been burdened with too much IRL stuff to formulate a decent response. Sorry.

Just felt compelled to comment here.

[Graham]

Stimpson J Cat - dude, your patience is superhuman, are you quite sure you're not God?

That said,

Luck? Yeah, I guess you could call the Emperor of the largest empire the World has ever seen converting to Christianity, and then forcing the conversion of all of Europe through murder and torture, to be luck.

No arguments with your point, Constantine (or rather his mother) pretty much sorted things for the Christians. On a point of history, though, I don't think the Roman Empire was quite the largest the world has ever seen.

IIRC, the Mongol empire was considerably larger for one. The Roman Empire has a particular place in Western minds. The reputation is well deserved in many respects but misconcieved in others, I think.

That's all, carry on!

Graham

[Doctor X]

Interesting Ian:

That doesn't follow.

Unfortunately it rather does.

You think God should have created a Universe where every sentient being is in a state of maximum logically possible "happiness"? Or are you saying that although some evil, or suffering, or lack of happiness is not inconsistant with an omnipotent omnibenevolent "God", the amount of evil which does exist is greater than what such a "God" would allow? If the latter what are your criteria for deciding this?

Concentrate on the second part. First, the children do die and die rather unpleasantly. This is a fact rather than a philosophical supposition dragged out for the purpose of debate. Theories on How the Universe Works [THUW?--Ed.] have to account for actual events.

So children die with extreme suffering. Why?

You can take the rather scientific explanation solve the conundrum with 1. If you assume the existence of some diety . . . deity . . . god or gods, then you must reconcile this event with their existence. Man of Muscles rather makes the rest of the argument easy by such assertions:

MM:
God is all knowing, all knowing in a sense that everything he created, their beggining, and end, he has control over. It is ABSURD that God will design sub-atomic particles, molecules, etc. and not know how it works, for if he does not know how it works, then he will not have control to it.

et cetera. . . .

Well, if the gods want the child to die this way, the gods prove evil--unless one can justify the suffering without ridiculous post hoc rationalization: "Well, there was a vacancy in the second chair of the Heavenly Choir [Choirs do not have "chairs."--Ed.] and Little Muffy was needed . . . we will fix that whole "tracheostomy problem" in the Great Beyond, of course."

Not to mention the, "How do you know the child was not destined to become the next Hitler or, worse, Alanis Morrisette?" explanation.

What if the gods did not want that to happen? That runs counter to Muscleman's premise, but we can consider it. That they wish to intervene but cannot makes them inrelevant at best and incompetent at worse. Thus, the "how do you know it is not part of the Great Plan?" falls to the rather unpleasant fact that it is a pretty crappy and unjust--if not evil--plan.

Assume the "Blind Watchmaker" type. This deity cannot intervene--brings us right back to irrelevance.

Finally, a deity may be evil and incompetent, incompetent and irrelevant, et cetera.

To have a "good god" one must make the protracted suffering of the child "good."

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Notice that this does not deny that suffering happens. It also does not demand the first part of your question:

II. . . where every sentient being is in a state of maximum logically possible "happiness"?

Someone can argue that the existence of any suffering leads to one of the five possible conclusions. I concentrate on the reality of a simple case of unjustified extreme suffering. If the child must die, fine, there are far less pleasant ways to go.

[ZZZZzzzZZZZzzzz--Ed.]

Indeed, to "make good" this child's suffering one would have to explain the rather gentle passing of a Josef Mengele. Perhaps a great Hell exists--where you are hung upside down listening to AirSupply for all eternity--that, somehow, someway, balances things.

Fine. Assume that--not that I am implying you, specifically, are. The amount of suffering of the child is not justified by the "reward."

Of posters such as Stimpson J. Cat make the conundrum all the more difficult for Muscleman. By using biblical texts as an "authority" on the nature of the gods--Elohim, El, El Shadday, YHWH [Get on with it!--Ed.]--well, the Canaanites do smite some Israelis by sacrificing to their god--anyways, he is left with having to explain the evil endorsed by Big Daddy and Junior.

Evil by Junior?

How else can one explain his purposeful and confessed intention to prevent people who want to be "saved" from being saved? How else can one judge one that would condemn good men because they were not predestined for salvation--not "born from above?"

This is the problem with "sticking to the texts."

--J.D.

[Mephistopheles]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


And as I have said time after time after time, I utterly reject this assertion. It is no good you and other atheists simply supposing this to be true when probably most theists suppose it to be false. No, you need to provide arguments. If you believe that atheism, together with the family of beliefs associated with atheism, are a prima facie more reasonable position to hold than the alternative idea that that there is an ultimate teleological goal to our existence together with its implication of some sort of universal metamind, then let's hear your arguments to that effect.

Well, technically I'd have to call myself agnostic, but that's a distinction without a difference. I'm waiting for the proof that will never come...

Ian, it has nothing to do with which is a more reasonable position; burden of proof lies with the party making a claim.

You'll notice that I've taken the weak stance on the issue of whether there is a God; there's a good reason for that. When true atheists make the concrete statement that there is no God, they set themselves up: While they are perfectly welcome to believe anything they like, the absolute assertion that there is no God transfers the burden of proof, and atheists are as incapable of proving the non-existence of God as theists are of proving God's existence.

I do happen to think that agnosticism is a prima facie more reasonable position than theism, burden of proof aside. After all, I need very little proof to assert that I don't have enough evidence to make a determination! It seems, though, that a God is an artificial construct, invented to give the individual comfort as he/she kisses the cold and dark of eternal oblivion. I can explain natural phenomena that earlier man had to attribute to the divine. I see no God. If there is evidence of God's existence, bring it on.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by Graham
Stimpson J Cat - dude, your patience is superhuman, are you quite sure you're not God?

No arguments with your point, Constantine (or rather his mother) pretty much sorted things for the Christians. On a point of history, though, I don't think the Roman Empire was quite the largest the world has ever seen.

IIRC, the Mongol empire was considerably larger for one. The Roman Empire has a particular place in Western minds. The reputation is well deserved in many respects but misconcieved in others, I think.

That's all, carry on!

Graham

I'll second Graham's sentiment about Stimpy - above and beyond the call here.

J.D. - I love your example, keep using it. I'm assuming I can steal it now that it's public domain. It's also amazing that people frequently choose not to debate you on it.

IIRC, not only was the Mongol empire was the largest, it was also secular and multi-cultural. The Roman Empire is more important in history because who's been writing history recently. I think it also had the impact of spreading it's dominant religion because the religion was forced on the conquered peoples, unlike the Mongol empire.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Doctor X
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You think God should have created a Universe where every sentient being is in a state of maximum logically possible "happiness"? Or are you saying that although some evil, or suffering, or lack of happiness is not inconsistant with an omnipotent omnibenevolent "God", the amount of evil which does exist is greater than what such a "God" would allow? If the latter what are your criteria for deciding this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Concentrate on the second part. First, the children do die and die rather unpleasantly. This is a fact rather than a philosophical supposition dragged out for the purpose of debate. Theories on How the Universe Works [THUW?--Ed.] have to account for actual events.

So children die with extreme suffering. Why?



Just to be quite clear then you are not declaring that children suffering constitutes proof of the non-existence of a omnipotant, omniscient, omnibenevolent God, but rather it consitutes compelling evidence against such a God? And would you say that more general suffering such as having a toothache does not consitute any evidence against such a "God". Or would toothache present a small amount of evidence against such a God? I just need to be quite clear what you're saying.

I also need to be clear on whether the fact that we do not subsist in a perpetual state of logically possible happiness constitutes proof or evidence against the existence of a "God"? Afterall, if God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent why would he allow us to be in anything less than such a state?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Mephistopheles
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Interesting Ian


And as I have said time after time after time, I utterly reject this assertion. It is no good you and other atheists simply supposing this to be true when probably most theists suppose it to be false. No, you need to provide arguments. If you believe that atheism, together with the family of beliefs associated with atheism, are a prima facie more reasonable position to hold than the alternative idea that that there is an ultimate teleological goal to our existence together with its implication of some sort of universal metamind, then let's hear your arguments to that effect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, technically I'd have to call myself agnostic, but that's a distinction without a difference. I'm waiting for the proof that will never come...


Certainly it will never come. In what form could this proof possibly assume? I presume the totality of empirical facts is not going to reveal a "God"? Or at least if they did it would mean that God was a physical existent subsisting amongst other physical existents in the Universe. A pretty daft conceptualisation of "God" if you ask me.




Ian, it has nothing to do with which is a more reasonable position; burden of proof lies with the party making a claim.



No. This is only the case if we suppose that "God" is a physical existent.



You'll notice that I've taken the weak stance on the issue of whether there is a God; there's a good reason for that. When true atheists make the concrete statement that there is no God, they set themselves up: While they are perfectly welcome to believe anything they like, the absolute assertion that there is no God transfers the burden of proof, and atheists are as incapable of proving the non-existence of God as theists are of proving God's existence.

I do happen to think that agnosticism is a prima facie more reasonable position than theism, burden of proof aside. After all, I need very little proof to assert that I don't have enough evidence to make a determination! It seems, though, that a God is an artificial construct, invented to give the individual comfort as he/she kisses the cold and dark of eternal oblivion.


The fact that the notion of a "God" may be psychologically desirable consitutes no evidence against a "God".




I can explain natural phenomena that earlier man had to attribute to the divine. I see no God. If there is evidence of God's existence, bring it on.



The world is already given. It's the intepretation of the world and of ourselves which is the pertinent issue here. If the characteristics of the world are not what you would judge to be suggestive of a "God", then what would the world/Universe have to be like before you felt that the existence of a "God" is likely?

I can tell you what the characteristics of the world/Universe would have to be like before I felt that the existence of a "God" was unlikely. For example if we inhabited a Universe where the information from our sensory perceptions were wholly chaotic and random and we subsisted in a bodiless state.

Remember what God is supposed to be, namely an infinite awareness or consciousness. Unless we presuppose materialism, we cannot find consciousness by examining the processes in the brain. It is inferred from our bodily behaviour. Likewise the existence of a metamind may arguably be inferred from the behaviour of the Universe as a whole. On the other hand, if we are materialists, and declare that consciousness is one and the same thing as the physical and chemical processes within the brain, then it might be deemed to be reasonable to suppose that an infinite consciousness to be identical to empirical reality as a whole.

[muscleman]

Atheist will say "If God is not fake because u want proof he is, then prove to me tooth fairies/unicorns don’t hover around earth every night".

Smart Christian will say "A claim can b proven fake by lack of evidence. What evidence do u have of tooth fairy? How many eyewitnesses? Millions? If tooth fairies plucked out a teeth, is there any scientific investigation done to it?/ If so can u show it? How many testified? Show me healing, supernatural/miracles documented in the name of tooth fairy. How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value? / Thousands? Is there a Historical location of it? If so, where? Give up? Well tooth fairy because of its lack of evidence is fake. Period...


I hear alot of "toothfairy" and "giant purple squid monkey" or "SIX BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER" being thrown around here and there in an attempt to disprove the existence of God...But why do atheists even use the word "SIX BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER" or giant purple squid monkey and claim to base their belief in scientific research?

Check this...Let us observe why atheists use "giant purple squid monkey" or "toothfairy" so many times in order to disprove God..

1.) Toothfairy contains no scientifical evidence, no historical logical location, no testimonial evidence...

2.) As a result, it gives them that "FEELING" that since it is illogic to believe in toothfairies which to them contains no evidence, then why should they believe in God? How is God any different??

There is alot of errors concerning this claims...First and foremost, existence of toothfairy claim & giant purple squid monkey cannot be used as analogy to the existence of God...

If u use toothfairy as analogy to the existence of God, then u should have no problem providing the same valid evidence as there is for God...

1.) Show me how many are martyred in the name of toothfairy....

2.) Show many how many churches built in the name of toothfairy...

3.) How many believers of the existence of toothfairy? MILLIONS? Are they professors? University Grads? Presidents? JUST TO CLARIFY IT, DONT USE INSANE, RETARDED, DRUG ADDICTS AS A REFFERENCE, OR 6 YRS OLD KIDS, THAT DOESNT GIVE THE SAME ANALOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD....

Using toothfairy and Giant purple squidmonkey as analogy to God is like saying "WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE A CAR CAN RUN AS FAST AS 60 MPH? MIGHT AS WELL BELIEVE A TOOTHPICK RUNS JUST AS FAST AS WELL..."

ITS STUPID, toothpick doesnt have an engine, doesnt have a wheel, etc. therefore u cant use toothpick as analogy to a car...In the same way u cant use toothfairy as analogy concerning the existence of God...Even if you can find ways to use science to prove the existence of toothfairies (though unlikely), u still cant use it as analogy to God unless of course u can provide the same amount of evidence....
-----------------------------------------------------------------


So what is the lesson here? That atheists based their beliefs on feelings and emotions as well...

I can understand many peeps became atheists bcus they reject miracles, effects of faith, testimonial evidence, historical evidence, etc... As a result of their denial, it had a great effect on them psychologically... In a way they are brainwashing themselves.. So its so easy for them to use toothfairy as analogy to God, because they see no evidence of God, the same way they see no evidence of toothfairy, NOT THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD, THERE IS, BUT THEY ARE IN COMPLETE DENIAL, THUS BRAINWASHING THEMSELVES, A real hard effect on them psychologically, making them an atheist...


in summary: YOU CANNOT USE "TOOTHFAIRY" OR 6 BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER AS ANALOGY TO GOD, BECAUSE THAT IS LIKE USING A TOOTHPICK AS ANALOGY TO A CAR.....GOT IT ? ----------------------------------------------------------


Once again, In case you didnt get it...I will type it AGAIN (as always..)...A claim can be proven fake by lack of evidence......

It is important to use testiomy as an evidence when making analogy concerning God, bcuz thats part of God, having followers and all...

When Mark McGuire took creatine, because the guy is muscular, everyone else wants to take creatine........When Michael Jordan uses Nike and he claimed that the shoe helped him jump high, AND BECAUSE HE JUMPS HIGH, that evidence made many people who wants to jump high buy Nike.....But of course this is just an analogy and we both know that they are PAID $$$ to say this, and it can be a lie FOR $$$ IS A GOOD REASON TO LIE....

This is the same thing as the apostles, while you believe that they are liars, I believe they are genuine....
I see no gain for the apostles to lie, they were stoned, mocked, persecuted, and at the end tortured to death, thats the opposite of what a person would do when lying. Now of course if the apostles got $$$ millions of cash and gold, women, good attention, etc...Then I see a possibility of them as a liar....And in addition to that, THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS (MAYBE MILLIONS) FOLLOWED THEIR EXAMPLES AND WERE MARTYRED AS WELL FOR THEIR FAITH (Want 2 bring out suicidal bombing if that is considered martyrdom?).....

[muscleman]

Dr. Stupid,

Your name speaks for itself.. You quote my posts out of conext, SKIPPING MANY POINTS I TYPED, then saying "You have no points"...

You claim to be brought out as a catholic, BUT DONT EVEN KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY...

You claim to read the bible, BUT DOESNT EVEN KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS SYMBOLIC...

If I have to keep on conversating with you, then I have to start from scratch, FROM PRIMITIVE POINT OF VIEW, as I was saying from the beggining, I am trying to avoid a kid brain like yours (for i am tired of dealing with teens..).

So sorry, I cannot go on talking to you... Educate yourself a little, YOU HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO......

- peace......

[Tricky]

Originally posted by muscleman
You claim to read the bible, BUT DOESNT EVEN KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS SYMBOLIC...
Well that certainly clarifies things. To hear some Christians tell it, there actually was a Jesus Christ who performed miracles. What a relief to know that it was just a symbol.

[Skeptical Greg]

C'mon..

Is this an " Amazing Meeting " joke thread?

Are we being punished for not attending?

Is that you FRANKO ?

[Yahzi]

Musclebound
1.) Show me how many are martyred in the name of toothfairy....

2.) Show many how many churches built in the name of toothfairy...

3.) How many believers of the existence of toothfairy? MILLIONS? Are they professors? University Grads? Presidents?
This is argument ad populum. By this logic, Allah is the one true God, because far more people worship him than any other god. More churches, more martyrs, more people praying 5 times a day.

Ergo, we can now deduce that you will rush out and become a Muslim. If you don't, then you must agree with us that sheer numbers mean nothing.

I can understand many peeps became atheists bcus they reject miracles, effects of faith, testimonial evidence, historical evidence, etc
You reject all of these things too. That's why you don't believe in Allah. Or Shiva. Or Zeus. Or Odin. Or Amaretsu.

The number of gods you reject despite their miracles, faith, testimony, and history, is staggering. The only difference between you and I is that I reject just one more.

The people of Heaven's Gate all died for their beliefs. Does that mean UFOs are real? The people of Gary, Indiana, all died for their belief that Elvis was still alive. Does that mean the King lives?

In any case, if the power of a god is to be measured by the blood spilled on his behalf, then why do we want gods around at all?

[Eyes Shining Angrily]

Originally posted by Win
Stimp:

I'm surprised you're, er, spending your time on this. Thomas Aquinas this guy isn't. ;)



Mr Stimp likes 2 look kewl :cool: Thats' y he talking to this guy coz he's a push-over.

hee wouldent luck so kewl if he attempturd to argue with intresting Ian who seems to have a formidable intellect. :)

He mite then loose awl his sycophantic admyirers! :p

[Samus]

Originally posted by muscleman
You claim to be brought out as a catholic, BUT DONT EVEN KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY...

You claim to read the bible, BUT DOESNT EVEN KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS SYMBOLIC... see what I miss when I go away for a couple days? Jeezum crow, dude, can you be any more rude?

After reading this thread, I have come to the following conclusions:

1. The bible is not to be taken literally, yet, you have repeatedly discussed events in the bible (viz. Jesus' death) as if they were real events that actually happened. You've also quoted a passage or two. So which one is it, bubba? Literal interpretation? Symbolism? Little bit of both? Who made you the arbiter of what is real in the bible and what is not?

2. Because I disagree with your incoherent argument, I am stupid.

3. People that don't subscribe to your bible's teachings will rot in eternal hell, even if they were good people. Nice God you have there.

4. When you cannot counter an argument, you attack the person. Asking how old someone is, well, I call that ageism. As if someone younger than you cannot possibly be as smart as you.

5. You have read, and taken to heart, The Usenet guide to power posting, because I think you've taken to every point: ad hominem attacks, blaming everyone else for your flawed logic, etc.

Grow up buddy. Seriously.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

muscleman

Atheist will say "If God is not fake because u want proof he is, then prove to me tooth fairies/unicorns don’t hover around earth every night".

Smart Christian will say "A claim can b proven fake by lack of evidence. What evidence do u have of tooth fairy? How many eyewitnesses? Millions? If tooth fairies plucked out a teeth, is there any scientific investigation done to it?/ If so can u show it? How many testified? Show me healing, supernatural/miracles documented in the name of tooth fairy. How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value? / Thousands? Is there a Historical location of it? If so, where? Give up? Well tooth fairy because of its lack of evidence is fake. Period...

Well that pretty much wraps it up for Christianity. Because of its lack of evidence, it is fake. Period.

Check this...Let us observe why atheists use "giant purple squid monkey" or "toothfairy" so many times in order to disprove God..

1.) Toothfairy contains no scientifical evidence, no historical logical location, no testimonial evidence...

Christianity has no scientific evidence either. The historical location and testimonial evidence are both irrelevant. Anecdotal evidence is not reliable, and the fact that Christian mythology takes place in a place that existed when the mythology was invented is trivial and irrelevant.

2.) As a result, it gives them that "FEELING" that since it is illogic to believe in toothfairies which to them contains no evidence, then why should they believe in God? How is God any different??

There is alot of errors concerning this claims...First and foremost, existence of toothfairy claim & giant purple squid monkey cannot be used as analogy to the existence of God...

If u use toothfairy as analogy to the existence of God, then u should have no problem providing the same valid evidence as there is for God...

1.) Show me how many are martyred in the name of toothfairy....

Irrelevant. Not only is the fact that people have been martyred in the name of God not evidence that God exists, but many people have been martyred in the name of other mythologies as well.

2.) Show many how many churches built in the name of toothfairy...

Also irrelevant. That only demonstrates that people believe in it. Lots of churches have been built to Gods that you don't believe in.

3.) How many believers of the existence of toothfairy? MILLIONS? Are they professors? University Grads? Presidents? JUST TO CLARIFY IT, DONT USE INSANE, RETARDED, DRUG ADDICTS AS A REFFERENCE, OR 6 YRS OLD KIDS, THAT DOESNT GIVE THE SAME ANALOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD....

Also irrelevant. Do you know what an appeal to popularity is? Do you understand why it is a logical fallacy?

Using toothfairy and Giant purple squidmonkey as analogy to God is like saying "WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE A CAR CAN RUN AS FAST AS 60 MPH? MIGHT AS WELL BELIEVE A TOOTHPICK RUNS JUST AS FAST AS WELL..."

ITS STUPID, toothpick doesnt have an engine, doesnt have a wheel, etc. therefore u cant use toothpick as analogy to a car...In the same way u cant use toothfairy as analogy concerning the existence of God...Even if you can find ways to use science to prove the existence of toothfairies (though unlikely), u still cant use it as analogy to God unless of course u can provide the same amount of evidence....

No, your analogy is what is stupid. There is no reliable evidence for God. None. Anecdotes are not evidence. Blind belief is not evidence.

So what is the lesson here? That atheists based their beliefs on feelings and emotions as well...

Baloney.

I can understand many peeps became atheists bcus they reject miracles, effects of faith, testimonial evidence, historical evidence, etc... As a result of their denial, it had a great effect on them psychologically...

That is not denial. It is rational thinking. You should try it sometime. Let me introduce you to a friend of mine, named Mr. Logic.

In a way they are brainwashing themselves.. So its so easy for them to use toothfairy as analogy to God, because they see no evidence of God, the same way they see no evidence of toothfairy, NOT THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD, THERE IS, BUT THEY ARE IN COMPLETE DENIAL, THUS BRAINWASHING THEMSELVES, A real hard effect on them psychologically, making them an atheist...

Present your evidence. Anecdotal evidence is clearly not valid, because for every anecdote supporting your beliefs, there are plenty of others that contradict them.

Once again, In case you didnt get it...I will type it AGAIN (as always..)...A claim can be proven fake by lack of evidence......

It is important to use testiomy as an evidence when making analogy concerning God, bcuz thats part of God, having followers and all...

That is just stupid. Your really have no grasp of logic, do you?

When Mark McGuire took creatine, because the guy is muscular, everyone else wants to take creatine........When Michael Jordan uses Nike and he claimed that the shoe helped him jump high, AND BECAUSE HE JUMPS HIGH, that evidence made many people who wants to jump high buy Nike.....But of course this is just an analogy and we both know that they are PAID $$$ to say this, and it can be a lie FOR $$$ IS A GOOD REASON TO LIE....

This is the same thing as the apostles, while you believe that they are liars, I believe they are genuine....
I see no gain for the apostles to lie, they were stoned, mocked, persecuted, and at the end tortured to death, thats the opposite of what a person would do when lying.

Where is your evidence that the apostles existed at all? By the way, there are plenty of non-Christians who have been martyred for their beliefs (many at the hands of Christians). Is that evidence that their beliefs were true?

Now of course if the apostles got $$$ millions of cash and gold, women, good attention, etc...Then I see a possibility of them as a liar....And in addition to that, THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS (MAYBE MILLIONS) FOLLOWED THEIR EXAMPLES AND WERE MARTYRED AS WELL FOR THEIR FAITH (Want 2 bring out suicidal bombing if that is considered martyrdom?).....

Maybe they weren't lying. Maybe they were just deluded? Maybe they were taken in by a charismatic liar who convinced them that he was the Son of God. Maybe they were just fictional characters in myths that were made up decades after the events supposedly took place.

You don't know. You have no way of knowing. That is a fact.

Dr. Stupid,

Your name speaks for itself.. You quote my posts out of conext, SKIPPING MANY POINTS I TYPED, then saying "You have no points"...

That's pretty funny. You know, lying doesn't work so well when the evidence that you are lying is right there for everyone to see.

You claim to be brought out as a catholic, BUT DONT EVEN KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY...

I was brought up Catholic, but I learned that Catholics are completely deluded. Who decides what in the Bible is to be taken literally, and what isn't? Who decides how to interpret the parts that aren't? It is very convenient to just dismiss anything the Bible says that you don't like as not being literal. But that destroys your ability to claim that any of your beliefs are anything more than just inventions of the Clergy.

You claim to read the bible, BUT DOESNT EVEN KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS SYMBOLIC...

Yeah, right. Learn your own History, buddy. It is only relatively recently that the Catholic Church adopted that position, and only to deal with its waxing membership. It wasn't so long ago your Church was burning people at the stake for claiming that the Bible wasn't the literal truth.

Tell me, was the resurrection symbolic?

All you Catholics do is pick and choose what you like from the Bible, and discard the rest. Tell me, if the Old Testament wasn't meant to be taken literally, then how come Jesus didn't say so? Surely he must have known?

If I have to keep on conversating with you, then I have to start from scratch, FROM PRIMITIVE POINT OF VIEW, as I was saying from the beggining, I am trying to avoid a kid brain like yours (for i am tired of dealing with teens..).

Keep on insulting me. It doesn't bother me at all. In fact, coming from somebody who writes like you, I find it incredibly amusing.

So sorry, I cannot go on talking to you... Educate yourself a little, YOU HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO......

What you are talking about isn't education. It is brainwashing by clerics. Without the Bible, Christianity is nothing but a cult following the word of the Pope. You don't have faith in God. You have faith in a political organization that exists for the sole purpose of perpetuating its own existence.

Dr. Stupid

[Watcher]

Originally posted by muscleman
If u use toothfairy as analogy to the existence of God, then u should have no problem providing the same valid evidence as there is for God...

1.) Show me how many are martyred in the name of toothfairy....

2.) Show many how many churches built in the name of toothfairy...

3.) How many believers of the existence of toothfairy? MILLIONS? Are they professors? University Grads? Presidents? JUST TO CLARIFY IT, DONT USE INSANE, RETARDED, DRUG ADDICTS AS A REFFERENCE, OR 6 YRS OLD KIDS, THAT DOESNT GIVE THE SAME ANALOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD....

Good, then let's use another analogy. My suggestion: Allah, the Muslim god.

1. As any historian can inform you, many were martyred in the name of Allah.

2. There are many churces that are built in the name of Allah. They are usually called mosques.

3. There are definitely millions of Muslims, as Islam is one of the biggest religions in existence today. And yes, there are university grads and professors that are Muslims.

So, does this constitute proof of Allah? No, it does not. It constitutes proof of people's belief in Allah. The same holds for your arguments. All you have proven is that there are people who believe in the Christian god. Hardly an amazing revelation.

[muscleman]

Ok Dr. stupid, since yur denying the existence of Jesus, that the bible is full of lies. And you wont believe in just hearsay words...Then lets see...Ill pretend to be stupid like you, and deny the existence of George Washington, a very common belief.......


------------------------------------------

Atheist say "prove to me George Washington is real, I haven't seen him or touched him, so he is NOT real, I don't take peoples word for it, I ask for logic physical proof".


Christian answer by sayings "Millions believe George Washington is real, there is location, history,& signature of him, handwritings, his house is even still here in this present day, & his very tomb " (Jesus Christ & the Egyptian rule over Jews, old & new testament, Jerusalem, have location & history proof & exist here in present day, like Jesus crucifix, the 12 apostles signature, Moses hand writing, St. Peters tomb, the scrolls, etc.)
---------------------------------------------------------------


Athiest say "that don't prove anything to me, I’ve been to the state where his tomb was & so called hand writings & signature, how do I know its not someone else? It can b somebody else corpse or handwritings, his house may even have been someone else’s house, a fraud, they just lie & say it's George Washington’s house for financial gain, when I went there I see this so-called tomb of his, I haven't touched his corpse therefore it could be a clay or if its not, it could be someone else, so no that doesn't prove to me George Washington is real".


Christian say " Historians, like the scientist whom u believe have studied & researched signature physical evidence which proved that he did wrote the constitution physically present today. There’s millions who are under it partly written by George Washington. Even his families handed down are here alive u can talk to who carried George Washington’s last name till this day, so your being stubborn, evidence are already presented (Millions in the present day are Christians, there is still Pope, bishops etc. who are handed down from St. Peter one of the 12 apostles who witnessed Jesus risen. Historians have studied & researched the 10 commandments in which the constitution is based on is from the bible, & the bible is from Christianity, scrolls have been dated back to the time of Egyptian rule during Moses time.)
----------------------------------------------------------------


Athiest say "whatever, your a stupid idiot, George Washington is NOT real & you cant prove to me physically, I haven't touched or seen him therefore he is not real".


Christian say "then that's your own personal opinion for I have presented to you evidence left & right yet you refuse to accept facts, I had enough of your stubborn head, I have evidence u refuse to accept, I’m done, now its your turn, prove to me George Washington is NOT REAL'.
-----------------------------------------------------


Athiest say "like I was saying, my proof is I’ve been to the state where his tomb was & so called hand writings & signature, how do I know its not someone else? It can b somebody else corpse or handwritings, his house may even have been someone else’s house, they just lie & say it's his, his corpse could be a clay or someone’s body.


Christian say "U assume it could be someone else corpse, but u cant prove IT IS someone else corpse, U assume it MAYBE someone else signature but u cant prove IT IS someone's signature. I don't care what u assume or what u think, I ask for logic evidence that George is not real, listen to yourself & know your stating opinions not facts"(Atheist thinks/assumes heaven, hell, angles, devils are fake but they CANT prove it's fake.)
--------------------------------------------------


Athiest say "Ok, maybe your right, maybe George Washington is real, but I don't think he was a president." (Some atheist admits Jesus was real but don't think He is God)

Christian say "If George Washington isn't president, how then will he have the knowledge of governing America, if he wasn't a president would u think his writings will have followers? Will his writings even last if it was written of an ignorant man? Look today, America is very successful, this shows that the constitution is written by professionals/intellectual presidents, not an ordinary man" (If Jesus wasn't God, why would the apostles be martyred for that belief? On top of that millions later on. If Jesus wasn't God, will the church even last? Why would different race leave their cultures in which they were adapted all their life & become Christian a new concept? Why would millionaires give up their wealth & obey his teaching if there was nothing genuine about it? Why would presidents and world leaders use Jesus teaching & method of governing if its not effective? If Jesus wasn't God, how do u explain the cancer victims were healed through prayers? Etc., etc.)
-----------------------------------------------------


Atheist says, “If George was really a president, why would some citizens of his country break the law? Why are there thieves and murderers in the same government he rule in, even in the white house where he stays. Besides George was corrupt and a sinner, he doesn’t fit the description of a person who holds the title ‘president’, a nationwide leader.



Christian respond “So if president Clinton cheated on his wife to a girl by the name of Monica, does that mean Clinton isn’t president? Furthermore does it make him a myth? So what if some citizens under his rule commit crimes, why do you blame their actions to George, they have freewill; George however punished them after the crime. If a well-disciplined teen intentionally beat up his classmate and claimed his father gave him the permission, does that mean it’s the teen’s dad who beats the classmate up? You’re stupid, everyone have freewill. (Atheist will say there is no God because bishops, priest, and the popes in the past and present makes mistakes and are sinners, such as the inquisition, wars, therefore there’s no God, stupid atheist. All humans regardless of belief makes mistakes, being atheist doesn’t make you free from committing wrong either, all people makes mistakes regardless of belief, Christians, Buddhist, Muslims, etc. Even the bible said that clearly, we are all sinners and have freewill. They have so much misconception about God that they said “My mom died of cancer, where was God when I prayed for His help?” stupid, if you acknowledge God, then you acknowledge life after death, so what seems to be the problem?)
------------------------------------------------------



Atheists say, "You're an idiot. George Washington is not real, I have not seen him or touched him physically. Besides, the burden is on you to prove George is real".

Christian say "No, the burden is on you to prove your claim George isn't real, for there’s millions who believe he is real & only few of you believe he’s not real" (Christian outnumbered atheist, billions of Christians, few atheist).

--------------------------------------------------

DNA? How could you prove that the dna corpse belongs to Juan the beautician? I mean King Henry the King??

Corpse? It could have been Juans corpse at the time, then they replaced the name with "Henry, THE KING OF ENGLAND" and painted Juan's face many times, then sold it to different countries....Just so you they can have financial gain...


HOW DO I KNOW THE HISTORIANS WASNT LYING AND JUST MADE IT UP FOR FINANCIAL GAIN? EVEN AS FAR AS MAKING LEGACY SUCH AS CASTLES THAT BELONG TO SOMEONE ELSE, THEN JUST SAY IT BELONG TO A CHARACTER BY THE NAME OF "KING HENRY"?

PROVE THAT TO ME "SCIENTIFICALLY"....UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE THAT TO ME SCIENTIFICALLY, THEN I WILL NOT BELIEVE IN HISTORIANS "HEARSAY" WORDS, SO-CALLED TRUTHS.......SO WHERES THE EVIDENCE OF KING HENRY? WHERE? GIVE IT TO ME AND STOP RAMBLING...(AN IMPERSONATION OF A TYPICAL ATHEIST, STUPID PERSON...)

If history is scientifically proven, then God is scientifically proven. If histopry is hearsay, then God is hearsay.....

[Tricky]

It's a good thing Potato Stew isn't here to see this.:rolleyes:

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Wow. I am awed by your intellect. Not.

If you honestly can't see the difference between the claim that George Washington was a real person, and the claim that Jesus was a real person, or even worse, the difference between the claim that George Washington was President, and the claim that Jesus was the Son of God, then you are too far gone for me to have any hope of talking any sense into you.


Dr. Stupid

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


And as I have said time after time after time, I utterly reject this assertion. It is no good you and other atheists simply supposing this to be true when probably most theists suppose it to be false. No, you need to provide arguments. If you believe that atheism, together with the family of beliefs associated with atheism, are a prima facie more reasonable position to hold than the alternative idea that that there is an ultimate teleological goal to our existence together with its implication of some sort of universal metamind, then let's hear your arguments to that effect.

Ian, I have to confess that I have never been able to really grasp your position. I'll readily admit that I am not the sharpest knife in the draw, but I can not understand your base assumptions. I think you would agree an uncomprehendible (or is it incomprehensible) god is a meaningless/useless god - in other words, a god who does not "exist" in any meaningful way. In order to have some measure of comprehensibility a god would have to have certain definable parameters - abilities, dimensions, purpose, intentions, inclination and so on. A meaningful god would have to be defined in some way and once you start to define your god you run into all sorts of logical difficulties.

You reject the assertion that the onus in on believers to prove the existence of god (I am uncomfortable with the term "prove" in this context. Like most, I would settle for a preponderance of the evidence .... well, any evidence that points singularly or even particularly to god.) I am not clear how you define your god. What properties does your god have. Does he have any properties which would necessarily manifest themselves in such a way that one would or could deduce from actual experience this god's existence? Would these manifestations necessarily point in the direction of god? It seems to me that god manifestations could only, reasonably, point in the direction of god and could not be accounted for in any other or better way.

I know you have gone to great pains to elaborate on your rather complex view of the universe, but, in as much as I am fairly dense, I have never been able to leap that chasm that separates me and my mundane view that all there is is stuff from the admittedly more elegant dualistic view of the universe. Abstractions involving thought leave me cold. Now, I would argue this: if your god has no discernable, observable, particular properties, then it is easy to reject the position that it is responsibility of the "believer" to support his position. Since this god is so entirely nebulous you can claim that the default position is that he exists.

But once you start ascribing any properties at all to a god, then the onus is on you to demonstrate that the universe supports the position that a god having these properties actually exists. I, personally, have never seen anything that supports or demonstrates the existence of anything remotely resembling a god in any meaningful sense of the word. You can speculate about some sort of dissaffected progenitor. You may presume that the universe required some sort of push to get started or needed to be "created" to exist, but that is hardly self evident.

I know you agree that common notion of god, god as person or as a great universal tooth fairy is infantile. I know that you would not accept this as the "default position". Likewise I would not be inclined to accept your rather much more sophisticated version, however much effort went into arriving at it, as the default position either. It really seems to me to be a very, extremely sophisticated version of "there must be something more". Well, maybe there is, but it would be very difficult for you to demonstrate it.

Can I ask you this, did you start out from a neutral position and then arrive at you current position, having thought the whole thing through? Or were you inclined to believe "there must be more" and then work through arguments to support your inclinations. Now, I am perfectly willing to accept that you are correct. Lord knows you are ten times smarter than me, but if it requires incredible intellectual gymnastics and philosophical rigor miles beyond the capability of ordinary human beings to arrive at enough of an understanding of god to begin to make him (whatever) remotely meaningful - well, jeeze, what the hell good is a god like that?

[Underemployed]

Muscleman is great! We should preserve him for future generations!

[specious_reasons]

Gracious!

The George Washington defense! Used to prove to bible-schoolers why Jesus exisited.

I haven't heard that one for a while and not on this forum, and I haven't heard it so mangled.

Muscleman, get it correct:

Why do we believe GW existed? Because we have a historical record.
Why do Xtians believe in Jesus? Because they have a historical record.

That's it, the rest of your argument is some tripped out strawman. It was amusing to read, but not at all convincing.

[Loki]

Muscleman,

As Win notes, this is hardly a challenging theological position you are presenting. Still, it's a slow day, so....

I hear alot of "toothfairy" and "giant purple squid monkey" or "SIX BREASTED DOMINATRIX FROM JUPITER" being thrown around here and there in an attempt to disprove the existence of God
Well, there's your first mistake. The "Toothfairy" or "Six Breasted Dominatrix From Jupiter" (do you have a contact phone number?...sorry I digress) argument is *not* an attempt to disprove god. It is an example of reductio ad absurdum - an attempt to prove an assertion is true by showing it's opposite leads to absurd conclusions (strictly speaking this is a variation called reductio ad ridiculum).

It works like this. Start with the statement I wish prove :

1. "It is not reasonable to believe in 'X' in the absence of any physical evidence for 'X'"

Now, create the opposite statement :

2. "It is reasonable to believe in 'X' in the absence of any physical evidence for 'X'"

Now, establish a few examples of this second statement in action :

2-A. "It is reasonable to believe in 'the ToothFairy' in the absence of any physical evidence for 'the ToothFairy'"

2-B "It is reasonable to believe in 'a Six Breasted Dominatrix From Jupiter' in the absence of any physical evidence for 'a Six Breasted Dominatrix From Jupiter'"

IF we agree that these examples (2-A and 2-B) represent absurd conclusions, we can conclude that the general statement #2 is false. Hence, it's opposite (#1) is true.

There are a number of ways to attack this argument (I've presented it in fairly simplistic terms, since I think that will work best in this particular debate), but you need to grasp what the argument is trying to establish - it's not about disproving god, it's about establishing definitions for evidence.

[Skeptical Greg]

We really need to bookmark this thread for the 2003 awards..


I'm keeping this in mind for:


" The thread that played the biggest part, in my accepting Jesus as my personal savior .."

[c4ts]

Originally posted by muscleman
woah, so much post to respond... I moved here from sciforums bcuz I figured there were too many kids there..But now I learned that the same argument those kids used are also used by adults........

Laughing with pride and flexing fingers, Ill get back with u guys, so far I see nothing but FLAWED arguments (and Ill prove it.).......

I patiently await your valid rebuttal. Should I start posting a calendar?

[aerosolben]

Originally posted by muscleman
You quote my posts out of conext, SKIPPING MANY POINTS I TYPED, then saying "You have no points"...


My irony meter just exploded. There's shrapnel embedded in my forehead.

[Doctor X]

Notes the loud screaming from the grounds. Closes the windows. Offers Interesting Ian a seat and a Blair Athol. . . .

Right, whilst the fallacious hurls about argumentum ad hominem let us move to a quieter place to consider your question:

Just to be quite clear then you are not declaring that children suffering constitutes proof of the non-existence of a omnipotant, omniscient, omnibenevolent God, but rather it consitutes compelling evidence against such a God?

I approached the problem in this matter: I see something fall and hit the ground and wonder why this happened. This is not simply children suffering, but a rather extreme degree of suffering. I am aware that one can argue that is was fine for Little Muffy to meet up with Mr. Steamroller because of her potential to become a finalist in American Idol--her death prevented a greater evil.

However, in the real world with weak attempts at humor aside, the degree of the child suffering from a pontine tumor [Diffuse pontine astrocytoma.--Ed.] cannot be justified by such post hoc rationalization.

I am also aware of the semantical and philosophical problems with "omi"--which all boil down to a variation of "rock" "big" "cannot lift."

A deity worthy of regard should find alleviating the suffering of a child in this case rather easy.

Thus, if an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent deity exists, what is he doing?

And would you say that more general suffering such as having a toothache does not consitute any evidence against such a "God". Or would toothache present a small amount of evidence against such a God? I just need to be quite clear what you're saying.

While one could make this argument, it will not convince many. One can easily argue that the reason one has a toothache is because one does not brush his teeth regularly! To quote Clint Eastwood from The Good, the Bad, the Ugly: "God is not on our side because God also hates fools!"

As a side note, it may make one wonder why prayer results in a parking space, but not alleviation of this child's suffering.

Anyways, one can argue that suffering is "a part of life."

Bare with me, this might take a bit. . . .

The case of the pontine tumor represents an extreme situation of suffering. I could have chosen child rape and murder or many other such cases. Of course, usually such do not take months. Sometimes length does matter [Stop that!--Ed.] I meant "duration." [Get on with it!--Ed.]

Now is we have a deity that does not know about this, he is not very helpful. He becomes irrelevant . . . maybe even incompetent.

If he knows of this severe case of suffering--in one who does not deserve it--then why does he not act?

If he can and chooses not to he becomes at best irrelevant and evil at worse. If he wanted it to happen he becomes evil.

If he wants to intervene but cannot he becomes irrelevant if not incompetent.

Et cetera, et cetera ad nauseum.

I also need to be clear on whether the fact that we do not subsist in a perpetual state of logically possible happiness constitutes proof or evidence against the existence of a "God"? Afterall, if God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent why would he allow us to be in anything less than such a state?

Again, someone could make that argument. However, one could defend a Tri-Omni deity in cases of justified suffering--Ted Bundy [Serial killer--Ed.] wails against the deity for his death-penalty. Well . . . do not rape and murder!

It is all a bit like chi. . . . [No! Stop him!!--Ed.]

"Chi" is just another fantasy force that can cure everything, even break the Laws of Physics [All Rights Reserved.--Ed.] yet, Heavens to Betsy, cannot be detected.

If one engages in a "prove-it-does-not-exist" argument with a proponent, one gets about as far as arguing about the existence of a deity with someone who believes he has him on speed-dial.

Indeed, "chi-sters," much like creationists, UFOlogists, and country-western music fans, cite the inability to disprove the existence of Whatever as proof Whatever exists.

I find it easier to assume the Whatever exists and test its effects. In the case of chi, the effects disappear under controled circumstances. How capricious!

The child with the pontine tumor constitutes just such a test. She develops it, she deteriorates, she suffers, and she dies.

This may not disprove the existence of a deity; however, it indicates something concerning his character.

Specious Reasons:

You do me too much honor.

--J.D.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Loki
Muscleman,

As Win notes, this is hardly a challenging theological position you are presenting. Still, it's a slow day, so....


Well, there's your first mistake. The "Toothfairy" or "Six Breasted Dominatrix From Jupiter" (do you have a contact phone number?...sorry I digress) argument is *not* an attempt to disprove god. It is an example of reductio ad absurdum - an attempt to prove an assertion is true by showing it's opposite leads to absurd conclusions (strictly speaking this is a variation called reductio ad ridiculum).

It works like this. Start with the statement I wish prove :

1. "It is not reasonable to believe in 'X' in the absence of any physical evidence for 'X'"



One problem. 1 becomes absurd if you replace "X" with a piece of physical evidince such "a computer keyboard."

"It is not reasonable to believe in a computer keyboard in the absence of any physical evidence for a computer keyboard."

There is no physical evidence for a computer keyboard, because even though you may be typing posts on one, there's no telling what you are actually using. Also, there is no physical evidence for the keyboard I am using becuase the keyboard itself is not physical evidence. If you accept the keyboard as evidence, it becomes circular reasoning. If you are typing out a reply and you feel your fingers depressing buttons and you see the keyboard, it still may not really be there. However (unlike God) the keyboard's existence is really obvious, which makes the statement absurd.

Therefore X cannot fall into the catergory of "true." X can be anything not true, such as something false, or in the example of God, something that is neither true nor untrue because it is imaginary.

[Loki]

Doctor X,

Perhaps a great Hell exists--where you are hung upside down listening to AirSupply for all eternity--
Okay, sure, not problem, I admit it - not one of Australia's finest contributions to humanity.:eek:

[Loki]

c4ts,

There is no physical evidence for a computer keyboard, because even though you may be typing posts on one, there's no telling what you are actually using. Also, there is no physical evidence for the keyboard I am using becuase the keyboard itself is not physical evidence.
Well, we're spiralling back into a discussion about axioms and the meaning of "exists". Let's just say for the sake of the simple argument that "ToothFairies" represent, there's a general agreement on the meaning of "physically exists". In the absense of such an agreement, nothing is going to get very far.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Loki
c4ts,


Well, we're spiralling back into a discussion about axioms and the meaning of "exists". Let's just say for the sake of the simple argument that "ToothFairies" represent, there's a general agreement on the meaning of "physically exists". In the absense of such an agreement, nothing is going to get very far.

But that was an example of an absurd statement.

[Legallee Insane]

MUSCLEMAN!!!:
What Jesus is trying to say is the beatitudes, virtues, and commandments is the way the truth and life, THE WORD..If u love, if yur patient, generous, who feeds the hungry, visit the lonely, forgiving, etc. YOU WORSHIP GOD WHETHER YOU CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN OR NOT...This is a fact.......

I'm sorry to break the news to you but the fact that I gave a homeless man a bus token for the ride to the nearest shelter does not make me a worshipper of anything. Doing a good deed is not proof of god by any stretch of the imagination, it is simply proof of a person's good morals and values.
**************************************************
**************************************************

P.S.
PLEASE STOP CAPITALIZING EVERYTHING AND PERHAPS YOU COULD WORK ON YOUR SPELLING/PUNCTUATION.

2nd P.S.
Muscleman,
After meticulously examining your arguements I have found that they are non-existent, yet you persist to make a fool of yourself. It made me think of the following quote: "Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win and never quit are just idiots." And after all that reading I had the following reaction..... http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/lachen/lachen014.gif

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Originally posted by Legallee Insane
"Quitters never win, winners never quit, but those who never win and never quit are just idiots." And after all that reading I had the following reaction.....

ROTFLMAO

[evildave]

Isn't that on a poster from http://www.despair.com ?

[evildave]

And a short message from when the forum was down (or just inaccessible by me) last night...

Originally posted by Loki

IF we agree that these examples (2-A and 2-B) represent absurd conclusions, we can conclude that the general statement #2 is false. Hence, it's opposite (#1) is true.



A technical note: we can't precisely conclude anything from it.

We can only discern that the opposite is absurd, but it doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Many arguments, when properly misquoted, reworded or merely improperly inversed, or generally malformed to begin with will yield "absurd" conclusions.

The whole problem with positing "There MUST be a God!", or "There MUST NOT be a God!", or even "I don't know if there is a God." is that they are equally absurd, because there's an undefined statement in them: "God".

"There MUST be a gobleblotz!"
"There MUST NOT be a gobleblotz!"
"I don't know if there is a gobleblotz."

Naturally, the mischaracterization and straw-man built into many of these puerile arguments about what ALL atheists believe, is that ALL atheists don't believe exactly the same things in the same way. One may as well claim that ALL THEISTS believe that Jesus is The ONE God's son, born of a virgin birth in a manger in order to save the human race by being sacrificed for their sins. (Which all comes across as utter nonsense to me, but if I don't buy into the backstory, why should I believe the sequel?)

Some atheists simply don't care if there's an Almighty God or not, any more than they care whether there's a Wizard of Oz or not. There is a non-zero possibility that someone called "The Wizard Of Oz" (emerald city, flaming holographic head and all) actually exists in reality. Exactly like there is a non-zero possibility that theists are right.

I personally use silly examples because the whole concept of "God" is silly to me. I don't have any more reverence for this fictional¹ character than other fictional characters, such as Bill The Cat, or Superman. There are hundreds of Superman comics, read by millions of kids who have fantasized about flying and lifting heavy things. Does that mean Superman is real in any meaningful way?

I call God "¹fiction" because even granting an "Almighty God" exists, any similarities to the real God and Gods described by theists of all sorts is purely coincidental. It's the standard disclaimer for works of fiction.

Maybe It wants "Good People", but perhaps Its definition of "Good People" includes spandex and shaving cream, and its policies include "Wear shaving cream in a cone shape on your head, under a spandex hat." (Prove it's not!)

As a matter of fact, maybe I'll make my own story about God:

Once upon a time there was nothing at all. Not time, or space, or anything like a dimension. Then an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and infinitely complex being instantly popped out of nowhere and made an entire universe where simple things occasionally self-organised and became more complex things. After a few billions of years, intelligent life appeared. Then God decided that some of that life (you) should give me money or suffer eternal torment.

Amen.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Stimpson J. Cat
Wow. I am awed by your intellect. Not.

If you honestly can't see the difference between the claim that George Washington was a real person, and the claim that Jesus was a real person, or even worse, the difference between the claim that George Washington was President, and the claim that Jesus was the Son of God, then you are too far gone for me to have any hope of talking any sense into you.


Dr. Stupid

You are CONFIRMED a dummy. Its an analogy you sack of sheep. Dr. Stupid asked above if can I really prove the existence of the apostles, likewise I asked him if he can prove the existence of George, IM PRETENDING TO BE STUPID LIKE HIM...

Now, Jesus being the son of God. Being Jesus "the" Christ. Us being the body of Christ (Not that were Jesus the Christ Himself.) Or the Pope being the "Vicar" of Christ (Peter, being the sheperd "Feed my sheep"- Jesus, as Jesus is the lamb of God handing his full authority from the heaven, etc.) is another topic, but let us deal with that later little children (mentally speaking.)..

Now the topic is about supernatural (Let us define this clearly..)..

So what is supernatural? Beyond or above the LISTED laws of nature? Or "DISCOVERED" laws of nature?

Lets get into this now, tell me what do u think of "supernatural"....Explain why Jesus being the Son of God is supernatural........

[c4ts]

Originally posted by muscleman


You are CONFIRMED a dummy. Its an analogy you sack of sheep. Dr. Stupid asked above if can I really prove the existence of the apostles, likewise I asked him if he can prove the existence of George, IM PRETENDING TO BE STUPID LIKE HIM...

Perhaps you missed the post where he explained why the analogy didn't work.

Now, Jesus being the son of God. Being Jesus "the" Christ. Us being the body of Christ (Not that were Jesus the Christ Himself.) Or the Pope being the "Vicar" of Christ (Peter, being the sheperd "Feed my sheep"- Jesus, as Jesus is the lamb of God handing his full authority from the heaven, etc.) is another topic, but let us deal with that later little children (mentally speaking.)..

Now the topic is about supernatural (Let us define this clearly..)..

So what is supernatural? Beyond or above the LISTED laws of nature? Or "DISCOVERED" laws of nature?
"Supernatural" refers to things that are above, beyond, and outside nature. Anything that can reverse a natural process, such as return life to a dead human being, counts as supernatural if there is no rational explanation for the phenominon.

Lets get into this now, tell me what do u think of "supernatural"....Explain why Jesus being the Son of God is supernatural........

He reputedly brought Lazarus back from the dead, and after he died himself, supposedly rose up out of the ground, flew around on a cross for a little while, said a few words to his friends, flew around some more, and has been appearing in visions, shrouds, and burritos ever since. And this was after he walked on water with no solid footing whatsoever, turned water into wine (insted of turning wine into urine like most people do), and magically transfigurized himself for some reason or other. In comparison, Geller counts as supernatural (well, he still thinks he does) and all he did was bend spoons with "telekinesis."

[muscleman]

Originally posted by c4ts


"Supernatural" refers to things that are above, beyond, and outside nature. Anything that can reverse a natural process, such as return life to a dead human being, counts as supernatural if there is no rational explanation for the phenominon.

I see..:)

Originally posted by c4ts

He reputedly brought Lazarus back from the dead, and after he died himself, supposedly rose up out of the ground, flew around on a cross for a little while, said a few words to his friends, flew around some more, and has been appearing in visions, shrouds, and burritos ever since. And this was after he walked on water with no solid footing whatsoever, turned water into wine (insted of turning wine into urine like most people do), and magically transfigurized himself for some reason or other. In comparison, Geller counts as supernatural (well, he still thinks he does) and all he did was bend spoons with "telekinesis."

Fair enough.. Now wait here, and Ill come back to DEBUNK your posts...Observe and learn amateurs.....

[Loki]

EvilDave,

A technical note: we can't precisely conclude anything from it.
But we can (well, to a degree). That's the point of making an argument of this type - if (and it might be a big IF) the two parties agree that the derived statements are ridiculous, it reveals the original statement as flawed. It doesn't mean that *all* derived statments must be ridiculous, but the existence of even one such statement establishes the principle, and allows the assumption of the truth of the initial statement.

Of course, in the case of "Tooth Fairies" we aren't establishing a logical contradiction, so you're correct to say this doesn't amount to "proof". Precisely the point that muscleman needs to grasp - "Tooth Fairies" and "Invisible Garage Dragons" aren't intended to establish a logical proof. If we want to try an establish a lgocial proof using "Tooth Fairies" we'd need to seriously tighten up the initial statement and definitions.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by muscleman


I see..:)



Fair enough.. Now wait here, and Ill come back to DEBUNK your posts...Observe and learn amateurs.....

Shouldn't be too difficult if you actually try. Much of what I say in long posts is incoherent or mispelled anyway.

[Samus]

Originally posted by muscleman
Fair enough.. Now wait here, and Ill come back to DEBUNK your posts...Observe and learn amateurs..... My guess is he will first tell you you're an idiot, then he'll go into a rant about something un-related, then he'll wow you with his apparent lack of spelling and grammar skills. For the finale, he'll attempt to debunk your claims by turning on the Orb of Confusion and leaving us all scratching our heads saying "what was this thread about?"

I wait with bated breath... :)

Edited to correct spelling of bated. "It's the wrong trousers Gromit, and they've gone wrong!"

[Tricky]

Originally posted by dwb
I wait with baited breath... :)
In my role as the Progenitor Pedant, I must point out to you that the term is "bated breath", as in "held back", not "baited" as in affixed with bait.

A lot of this confusion comes from an old poem, called Cruel Clever Cat (http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-bat1.htm) by Geoffrey Taylor in which he made a pun on the words.
Sally, having swallowed cheese,
Directs down holes the scented breeze,
Enticing thus with baited breath
Mice to an untimely death.
(BTW, I love Wallace & Gromit.)

[Gregor]

I have concluded that our new visitor - Don Quixote de la muscles - is only a puppet.

What manner of man intentionally posts blatant non sequiturs to garner responses ? Someone faking ignorance. Truly, no one could be that illogical, yet profess confidence in his debating skills. No one would attempt to prop up Xianity while demonstrating such a weak grasp of the theology.

* * *
Let me join in furious applause for Dr. X's posts here and elsewhere - fine work indeed. Our more rational discussions on other threads have solved the theodicy (why is there evil) debate as follows:

1. Those who say free will (and evil) is needed to make us appreciate goodness and avoid being automata lose the argument - A. They ignore the pontine tumor arguments altogether and B. In Heaven we apparently loose all free will. (Sounds to me like it's Heaven where hanging upside down, listening to Air Supply occurs).

2. Those who say tumors can co-exist with omnibenevolence must seek final refuge in the "we're not capable of understanding God's plan" defense. A weak argument indeed.

As for what the "Man of LaMuscles" is arguing for - I can't decipher.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Gregor
I have concluded that our new visitor - Don Quixote de la muscles - is only a puppet.
Well, there's a simple way to find out.

Hey Muscleman! Being a good Catholic and all, what is your position on Free Will?

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Originally posted by Gregor
I have concluded that our new visitor - Don Quixote de la muscles - is only a puppet.


Just now? ;). I detected him from his very first post.

[Gregor]

However, in my defense,

I've been away from the PC several days and have missed the forum - so I read this thread all at one sitting (and heavy sledding it was).

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Tricky

Well, there's a simple way to find out.

Hey Muscleman! Being a good Catholic and all, what is your position on Free Will?

Open your umbrellas, people. Here comes the Thomas Aquinas/CS Lewis sh*tstorm...

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by Gregor
I have concluded that our new visitor - Don Quixote de la muscles - is only a puppet.

What manner of man intentionally posts blatant non sequiturs to garner responses ? Someone faking ignorance. Truly, no one could be that illogical, yet profess confidence in his debating skills. No one would attempt to prop up Xianity while demonstrating such a weak grasp of the theology.


I'm not so sure, most of his arguments I've heard before, usually in a more coherent fashion. They're generally all some Christians need to maintain the illusion.

You know what MM reminds me of? Denise had a thread about a Christian forum she found that seemed pretty interesting. Then someone found a "I'll debunk evolution" thread by a very eager but entirely misguided fool who thought he could debunk evolution by using "Dr. Dino" (Hovind?) as source material.

Tired arguments, over confident, incoherent. It gets me angry, it does. Which means he's probably a troll.

For those who care,

The other forum link: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/30376-1.html
Denise's thread:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12928

[Ossai]

muscleman
Lets get into this now, tell me what do u think of "supernatural"....Explain why Jesus being the Son of God is supernatural Virgin births happen in nature, however, they all have one thing in common. The births all result in daughters.
Knowing that,
1. Jesus was female
2. Mary was a hermaphrodite
3. Something outside nature,supernatual, occurred
4. Mary got knocked up by someone and concocted a story to explain it away

Why would you want to worship a bastard anyway?

Ossai

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Ossai
muscleman
Virgin births happen in nature, however, they all have one thing in common. The births all result in daughters.
Knowing that,
1. Jesus was female
2. Mary was a hermaphrodite
3. Something outside nature,supernatual, occurred
4. Mary got knocked up by someone and concocted a story to explain it away

Why would you want to worship a bastard anyway?

Ossai
I think the phenomenon you are referring to is parthenogenesis (http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0837738.html), however it does not require a hermaphroditic mother. The mother is simply capable of producing haploid offspring which develop normally. Since they have only the mother's genes, they are technically "female", although being infertile, this is a moot point.

I have to wonder what you have against bastards, though?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Gregor

2. Those who say tumors can co-exist with omnibenevolence must seek final refuge in the "we're not capable of understanding God's plan" defense. A weak argument indeed.


Well you certainly need to justify that assertion! I'll be interested in hearing your response.

If there is an ultimate teleological destiny to our lives, but we are unaware of what that destiny consists in, then it seems to me that we're scarcely in a very good position to declare that any particular characteristic experience is unnecessary to obtain this teleological goal.

Of course the essence of Dr X's point, is an emotional one. Surely if there is an ultimate purpose to our lives and all things, there are other ways of acheiving this goal without children for example having to undergo extreme suffering?

It seems to me that we cannot completely rule out the notion that experiencing the full repertoire of emotions and sensations, from ectasy, love, exquissette pleasure to the other extreme of utter despair and extreme pain and suffering, may in some manner be necessary to fullfill out teleological detinies. One might argue for example that extreme suffering elicits compassion, sympathy, forgiveness and self-sacrifice. And personnally experiencing extreme suffering oneself, at any time in our lives or existence, may facilitate empathy for others when they are in a similar plight. On the other hand a world devoid of any extreme pain, suffering, and despair may seem lacking in its raw genuineness, and may perhaps be a less than an ideal environment for what we might describe as "soul making".

Not that I'm happy about the type of God the problem of evil seems to evoke. It all seems to hint at a anthropomorphic type of God, instead of the idea of God being the ground of all being which I feel more favourably disposed towards. Not that any of us have much idea when trying to grapple with the concept of "God".

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian



If there is an ultimate teleological destiny to our lives, but we are unaware of what that destiny consists in, then it seems to me that we're scarcely in a very good position to declare that any particular characteristic experience is unnecessary to obtain this teleological goal.


I tought you rejected the "god in the gaps" concept.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Lucifuge Rofocale
If there is an ultimate teleological destiny to our lives, but we are unaware of what that destiny consists in, then it seems to me that we're scarcely in a very good position to declare that any particular characteristic experience is unnecessary to obtain this teleological goal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I tought you rejected the "god in the gaps" concept.


Indeed I do, most emphatically. I don't understand how the above quote by me implies that I don't.

[Ossai]

Tricky
I think the phenomenon you are referring to is parthenogenesis, however it does not require a hermaphroditic mother.
I didn’t mean to imply that parthenogenesis required a hermaphroditic mother. But it only produces females of the species in question because of the raw material available. If Jesus was born of a virgin and turned out male, there must have been some Y chromosomes already present in Mary which would tend to make Mary a hermaphroditic, usually XXY.

I have to wonder what you have against bastards, though? I personally don’t have anything against bastards. But biblically speaking they weren’t exactly looked kindly upon.

Interesting Ian
It seems to me that we cannot completely rule out the notion that experiencing the full repertoire of emotions and sensations, from ectasy, love, exquissette pleasure to the other extreme of utter despair and extreme pain and suffering, may in some manner be necessary to fullfill out teleological detinies. What of those that died to young to experience the full range? Why is god playing favorites and allowing some to suffer more/grow than others?

Ossai

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Ossai


Interesting Ian
What of those that died to young to experience the full range? Why is god playing favorites and allowing some to suffer more/grow than others?

Ossai [/B]

Well I believe in life before conception and life after death. Bearing this in mind we're not in a position to declare that God is allowing some to suffer more than others.

[Franko]

What of those that died to young to experience the full range? Why is god playing favorites and allowing some to suffer more/grow than others?

Ask yourself that question next time you squash a bug.

[Ossai]

Interesting Ian
Well I believe in life before conception and life after death. Life before conception??? First time I’ve ever heard of that one. Unless you are referring to reincarnation.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Ossai

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I believe in life before conception and life after death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life before conception??? First time I’ve ever heard of that one. Unless you are referring to reincarnation.


Reincarnation seems a reasonable enough hypothesis to me. But even if reincarnation doesn't take place, why is it any more implausible to suppose we exist in an otherworldly reality before conception than to suppose we do after death?

[Franko]

Ian:

Reincarnation seems a reasonable enough hypothesis to me. But even if reincarnation doesn't take place, why is it any more implausible to suppose we exist in an otherworldly reality before conception than to suppose we do after death?

How about Fate, Interesting One?

You don't believe in "free will" do you?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Reincarnation seems a reasonable enough hypothesis to me. But even if reincarnation doesn't take place, why is it any more implausible to suppose we exist in an otherworldly reality before conception than to suppose we do after death?

Darn! We agree again.. I would also say, they are equally implausible.

[Doctor X]

Interesting Ian:

Of course the essence of Dr X's point, is an emotional one. Surely if there is an ultimate purpose to our lives and all things, there are other ways of acheiving this goal without children for example having to undergo extreme suffering?

Not at all, actually. The suffering experienced by the child is a fact that one must explain.

Bearing this in mind we're not in a position to declare that God is allowing some to suffer more than others.

I would have to disagree based on the evidence. Joseph Mengele passed away rather mildly. Why, as Ossai notes, the favoritism. The extent and severity of the suffering of the child outweighs even fantasy benefits of life before birth or after death. What has the child done to deserve such treatment? Was she originally Torquemada or Emily Dickenson in a previous life? That she does not understand or appreciate this removes any learning from the suffering--children simply do not understand a reason for it. They wonder what they have done wrong and how they can be good enough to gain relief.

Thus, I feel you are left with a hope that, somehow, it all balances. I am afraid I perceive little evidence for this.

--J.D.

[Ossai]

Interesting Ian
why is it any more implausible to suppose we exist in an otherworldly reality before conception than to suppose we do after death? I don’t believe in either pre-life existence or a post-life existence.

Doctor X :)

[Loki]

Ian,

"It seems to me that we cannot completely rule out the notion ... may in some manner be necessary to fullfill out teleological detinies."

"...a world devoid of any extreme pain, suffering, and despair may seem lacking in its raw genuineness, and may perhaps be a less than an ideal environment for what we might describe as "soul making"."
...
"Not that any of us have much idea when trying to grapple with the concept of "God"."

"... exist in an otherworldly reality"
Translation : Anything is possible, and we have no way of determining the truth.

So you openly admit that the *only* answer you can offer to resolve the extreme suffering of a child with a loving god is the equivalent of "god moves in mysterious ways" or "trust in god's plan" or "god will make it up to her in heaven".

It's quite simple, Ian. There's two parts to this story - a fact, and a theory.

The fact - a young child dies in the most extreme manner imaginable. A few months back here in Australia a young mother with a 2 year old daughter died from a heart attack in her home. For various reasons, the mother's death was not discovered for 2 weeks. In that time, the daughter spent the entire time next to her mother's body, until she died from starvation. A reasonably extreme form of emotional and physical suffering. Now this is all verifiable fact.

The Theory - well, there a few.

Theory 1 - God isn't there.
Theory 2 - God's a viscious bastard that enjoys hurting children.
Theory 3 - God's not what he used to be, and suffering is a bit out of control nowadays.
Theory 4 - God's got better things to do (golf?) that babysit bloody children all the time
Theory 5 - God's really nice, and Bad Things are somehow necessary. It'll somehow all turn out right in the end.

Now, the Fact doesn't prove any of these theories, and is compatible with all 5. But the key thing (and you seem to agree with this in your previous posts) is that implicit in theory 5 is we can't understand god, or his plan. So you wish to add another option to Doctor X's list :

6. God is largely (or partially) incomprehensible.

Fine - except that tends to work against having any confidence in the initial assertions about god's nature. After all, if we accept he/she/it is at least partially incomprehensible, then how can we assert omnibenevolence with any confidence?

In short, if you want to run with "mysterious" as your explanation, you implicitly undermine any assertions about the nature of god that you attempt to put forward.

[Doctor X]

Ossai et Loki:

Thank you.


6. God is largely (or partially) incomprehensible

I would deem this would make him irrelevant. If this is part of some "ineffable Plan" [All Rights Reserv'd--Ed.] it proves a pretty rotten plan. He becomes incompetent for not making a better one--I can . . . keep everything the same, let the kid find some food. Okay? The kid with the pontine tumor has to get snuffed? Okay, let her have cardiac arrest. Parents still sad, they learn about this transient thing, you know.

It all keeps coming back to the same options.

Nevertheless, I understand this is rather unpleasant and I understand the desire to find an "out" for the Tri-Omni deity. I do not recall if in this thread, but somewhere I noted one has to have some class and decorum. To the parents of said children, you do not sniff: "Well, hey, guess you just saved some college money! Hey, what does that say about your religion? I guess you have been wrong all these years, saps!"

It may seem a bit hypocritical, but no need to rub the grieving's noses into it, so to write.

--J.D.

[Skeptical Greg]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6. God is largely (or partially) incomprehensible
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I might add..

One is pretty much covered with this, as 'largely' can easily be ' partially ', or vice versa as the case may be.

I guess I did..

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by Doctor X
[b]Interesting Ian:



Not at all, actually. The suffering experienced by the child is a fact that one must explain.



Well ultimately it's a simple consequence of the physical laws of nature. If you think that God should have it so the physical laws were different so that no-one ever suffered or experienced pain, then you are presupposing that you can alter these laws and not place in jeapardy the realisation of the fullfillment of our ultimate teleological destinies.

However as you do not know what the nature of our ultimate teleological destinies might be, you cannot therefore declare that the laws of nature could be so altered to eliminate pain without having any repercussions for our ultimate destinies. It is a simple logical point.


II
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bearing this in mind we're not in a position to declare that God is allowing some to suffer more than others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I would have to disagree based on the evidence. Joseph Mengele passed away rather mildly. Why, as Ossai notes, the favoritism. The extent and severity of the suffering of the child outweighs even fantasy benefits of life before birth or after death. What has the child done to deserve such treatment? Was she originally Torquemada or Emily Dickenson in a previous life? That she does not understand or appreciate this removes any learning from the suffering--children simply do not understand a reason for it. They wonder what they have done wrong and how they can be good enough to gain relief.

Thus, I feel you are left with a hope that, somehow, it all balances. I am afraid I perceive little evidence for this.



I have no hope it all balances. It may or may not balance. This doesn't alter the self-evident truth of my remark that we cannot conclude that God contrived the world so that some suffer disproportionately.

[Doctor X]

Interesting Ian:

Well ultimately it's a simple consequence of the physical laws of nature.

That would then make the deity irrelevant--he cannot alter the laws of physics.

If you think that God should have it so the physical laws were different so that no-one ever suffered or experienced pain, then you are presupposing that you can alter these laws and not place in jeapardy the realisation of the fullfillment of our ultimate teleological destinies.

Well if he is not irrelevant and can have the physical laws different, it does not happen because he does not want it to happen or cannot figure out how to make it happen. This brings us right back to the three choices of incompetent, irrelevant, and/or evil.

However as you do not know what the nature of our ultimate teleological destinies might be, you cannot therefore declare that the laws of nature could be so altered to eliminate pain without having any repercussions for our ultimate destinies. It is a simple logical point.

Except for one minor little itsy bitsy fact . . . I do know that you can eliminate pain--even better, you can keep pain but eliminate suffering--amazing what happens from focal damage to the brain.

Nevertheless, what does remain and what is known is the extent and degree of suffering that, so far, no one has justified.

This leaves us with an unjust suffering which then leads to the five unpleasant possibilities, for:

This doesn't alter the self-evident truth of my remark that we cannot conclude that God contrived the world so that some suffer disproportionately.

the fact that some do disproportionately suffer in such an extreme manner must be explained. That the deity did not intervene means he did not want to or cannot. We come right back to the choices.

--J.D.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by dwb
My guess is he will first tell you you're an idiot, then he'll go into a rant about something un-related, then he'll wow you with his apparent lack of spelling and grammar skills. For the finale, he'll attempt to debunk your claims by turning on the Orb of Confusion and leaving us all scratching our heads saying "what was this thread about?"

I wait with bated breath... :)

Edited to correct spelling of bated. "It's the wrong trousers Gromit, and they've gone wrong!"

I thought I already did that on page 1.

[SpaceLord]

Wonder where Muscleman went? Did he feel he adequately debunked atheism and left, to tell all his friends of his accomplishment?

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian


Indeed I do, most emphatically. I don't understand how the above quote by me implies that I don't.

Not only that, wich is:
Originally posted by Interesting Ian


If there is an ultimate teleological destiny to our lives, but we are unaware of what that destiny consists in, then it seems to me that we're scarcely in a very good position to declare that any particular characteristic experience is unnecessary to obtain this teleological goal.


Also this:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

However as you do not know what the nature of our ultimate teleological destinies might be, you cannot therefore declare that the laws of nature could be so altered to eliminate pain without having any repercussions for our ultimate destinies. It is a simple logical point.


What does this mean apart that the "god" is in the gap in wich it have the reasons to behave that way.


Do you have other point that "gods acts in misterious ways"?

[muscleman]

Im back...

Ok, this is what I think about freewill...There is 2 perspectives, a view from an all-knowing God, and a view from a limited beings (us)..

From the limited view= We have freewill, this is derived from our higher intelligence. We can detect what the smaller intelligent creatures cant, in being able to detect more, your being aware of more. But God gave us enough brain to detect the info we need to choose. Things doesnt seem as they appear to us, thus we dont know whats ahead of us...

From the unlimited point of view (omniscience;God)= We dont have freewill. We live by instincts, an instincts given by God, just as we dont see ants having freewill.

Now lets go back to the limited view= Im tired of all these ignorant kids (many atheists here) who says "God is so mean, because he allows little children to be killed and hurt, therefore I dont want to worship Him, because he is powerfull, WHY DONT HE USE HIS POWER TO STOP THE RAPIST FROM RAPING A CHILD?"- From a sorry atheist..
Listen, if God was to stop man from doing what he wants to do, then God will be taking away his freewill, whats next? Should God stop you from feeding the poor as well? Might as well turn you into vegetable, what use is it? God created u to be free, so he has to carry the burden that u are capable of doing evil, but capable of doing good as well, and whatever u choose to do is what u choose to do.

Now from the omniscience point of view (God)= "God made a mistake, because he created the devil, why didnt he just kill the devil before it can pollute us?"- Sorry atheist..
God didnt make a mistake, he would have made a mistake if there was no justice for the devil and his followers, thats why hell exist for a reason, for the cruel and unjust, it is part of order..
God may have created evil man who lives off pleasure not caring about anyone else, but God also created hell, a place for them to go after they die. Justice. I certainly dont think a poor victim (innocent child being raped) deserves to go to hell and her criminal (the rapist) must go UNPUNISHED for his crime but go to heaven instead.....

[evildave]

Well, I suppose your Almighty God doesn't mind being your personal sock puppet. It's your "free will" to pretend to know Its innermost motivations.

But hey, if I made up an imaginary friend, I'd probably know just what its motivations were, too.

[thaiboxerken]

Yet another insane theist joins the forum. Muscleman, we really don't need to disprove your god. You should be the one showing us evidence of your god. Afterall, your claim is the one that is positive. Our claim about god could not exist without the initial claim that there is a god.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by muscleman
God may have created evil man who lives off pleasure not caring about anyone else, but God also created hell, a place for them to go after they die. So, God created this man, that could be me, evil. And created Hell for me to spend eternity in after I die.

How incredibly considerate of Him - but how I wish he had created me good, so I could go to heaven instead. Like muscleman.

Well, I guess I have to stand tall and take it as a man, God is God and if Hell is where He wanted me .... :mad:

What do You say God, any chance of changing my destiny? No? Created evil you say? Burning forever? Free will? NO??? :confused: :rolleyes:

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Bjorn
So, God created this man, that could be me, evil. And created Hell for me to spend eternity in after I die.

How incredibly considerate of Him - but how I wish he had created me good, so I could go to heaven instead. Like muscleman.

Well, I guess I have to stand tall and take it as a man, God is God and if Hell is where He wanted me .... :mad:

What do You say God, any chance of changing my destiny? No? Created evil you say? Burning forever? Free will? NO??? :confused: :rolleyes:

It COULD be you, but you dont know its you, unless of course your gonna act like you dont have a sense of freewill throughout your life, then indeed that will be you, and you deserve it..

And your right, God created selfish man (who cares nothing but themselves, will kill, rape, molest kids, and lie as he wishes) then created hell for him, BECAUSE HE DESERVE IT. ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY HE DONT DESERVE IT? WHY? BECAUSE YUR LIKE HIM? IF SO, WHY NOT CHANGE TODAY? You can change yur destiny right now.....

[Doctor X]

Unfortunately no matter how hard she tried, the child could not change her destiny.

--J.D.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by thaiboxerken
Yet another insane theist joins the forum. Muscleman, we really don't need to disprove your god. You should be the one showing us evidence of your god. Afterall, your claim is the one that is positive. Our claim about god could not exist without the initial claim that there is a god.

I heard that alot of times (mostly coming from brainwashed asian guys) that a burden of proof lies on the one who made an extraordinary claim, I agree.

I have the burden of proof of the existence of God, and I can pprove Him..

You in the other hand have the burden of proof that God dont exist, AND YOU CANT PROVE JACK...

Now I am not asking you to prove the negative, THATS A RIDICULOUS STUPID CLAIM, HOW CAN YOU PROVE A NEGATIVE? YOUR ASKING EVIDENCE THAT DONT EXIST! STUPID..

If yopu want to prove Godd dont exist, you must eliminate everything we give due to God..

Such as we believe he is the creator of life..

Now create any life forms in order to get rid of God once and for all, oh you cant? WELL SHUT YOUR HOLE BRAINWASHED WANG CHUNG...

[Doctor X]

If a peasant can only respond in argumentum ad hominem and Poisoning the Well at best, and a racist temper-tantrum at worse, he could at least find the ability to spell it all correctly.

Alas. . . .

--J.D.

----
You in the other hand have the burden of proof that God dont exist, AND YOU CANT PROVE JACK...
----



Technically, at least, no one made the claim that god(s) doesn't exist.
-But you did make a claim of existence.

[muscleman]

"Please, lose your god beliefs before you go insane...... oh, I'm too late huh?"- Kickboxer wannabe...

He insulted me, and I insulted him back..Simple, I aint no saint, and Im not close to being one...I aint no racist either, but what Im saying its true, The most hardcore brainwashed atheists are those who are brought out in life without religion at all, most I encountered are asians, and dont get me wrong, I got asian friends.....

[muscleman]

and who does the guy think of himself anyways? Im a fighter myself, I box sincce when I was 12, and now train hard to have under 9% body fat. I can fight myself, never losed a fight in my life (sportswise). Im 5' 7, 190 lbs, and Im looking for the right place to put my carrier. That guy acts hes all hard, I can probably kick his butt...

[Doctor X]

Neat! NEW FALLACY!! [!--Ed.]

He insulted me, and I insulted him back

Tu quoque ["You too."--Ed.]

Two wrongs still do not make a right.

I aint (sic) no racist either, but what Im (sic) saying its true,

Unfortunately the evidence indicates otherwise.

The most hardcore brainwashed. . .

Argumentum ad hominem with dash of Poisoning of the Well

. . . atheists are those who are brought out in life without religion at all,

ipse dixit and, incidentally, wrong.

. . . most I encountered are asians (sic), . . .

Ipse dixit and a non sequitur, if not just simply beyond the behavior of gentlemen.

. . . and dont (sic) get me wrong, I got (sic) asian (sic) friends.....

Non sequitur

Nevertheless, the child waits . . . as she will for some time until she downs in her secretions.

Of course it is perhaps unfair to address the topic. . . .

--J.D.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by muscleman
and who does the guy think of himself anyways? Im a fighter myself, I box sincce when I was 12, and now train hard to have under 9% body fat.

Oohh.. there's a "real" fighter, a boxer. :rolleyes:

I can fight myself, never losed a fight in my life (sportswise). Im 5' 7, 190 lbs, and Im looking for the right place to put my carrier.

Which carrier do you own, the USS Roosevelt?


That guy acts hes all hard, I can probably kick his butt...

Well, one thing is for sure, you don't "kick butt" at grammar or spelling.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by muscleman

I have the burden of proof of the existence of God, and I can pprove Him..

Then please proceed, and while you are at it, you can apply for the JREF million.

You in the other hand have the burden of proof that God dont exist, AND YOU CANT PROVE JACK...

LOL. I'm not making an extraordinary claim, I have no burden of proof.

If yopu want to prove Godd dont exist, you must eliminate everything we give due to God..

Which makes your position unfalsifiable as you give god his dues for all existence and more.

Such as we believe he is the creator of life..

You are trying to shift the burden of evidence back to the nonbeliever in a round-about way, but it is still a fallacy. You must give evidence of your god, not simply state your god is real because he created life. You must provide evidence of creation, evidence of god and then show evidence that god created life. Looks like you have a lot of evidence to show.

Now create any life forms in order to get rid of God once and for all, oh you cant? WELL SHUT YOUR HOLE BRAINWASHED WANG CHUNG...

Simply stating that I don't have god-like powers does not give your position any merit. Please provide evidence of your god instead of stating the obvious fact that I'm not god.

[thaiboxerken]

Originally posted by muscleman
"Please, lose your god beliefs before you go insane...... oh, I'm too late huh?"- Kickboxer wannabe...

He insulted me, and I insulted him back..Simple, I aint no saint, and Im not close to being one...I aint no racist either, but what Im saying its true, The most hardcore brainwashed atheists are those who are brought out in life without religion at all, most I encountered are asians, and dont get me wrong, I got asian friends.....

I'm only half asian, does this mean i'm only half "brainwashed" by my parents that happen to be both christians? Oh, and asia does have their own religions, atheism is a minority in asia with exception of maybe China.

----
Oohh.. there's a "real" fighter, a boxer.
----


Huh?

Many boxers are exceptional fighters.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by muscleman
I can fight myself.... You're Edward Norton?

Originally posted by muscleman
....never losed a fight in my life Well. if you fight yourself, you lose as many as you win.

:cool:

[Tricky]

Originally posted by muscleman
From the unlimited point of view (omniscience;God)= We dont have freewill. We live by instincts, an instincts given by God, just as we dont see ants having freewill.

Well, that pretty much settles the question. Franko, I must compliment you on your ability to create believable, internally consistant characters. Apparently all those hours of playing D&D have had some use. I'm sure even the "Franko" character is carefully planned. I'm glad you're having fun at this. It makes me wonder who you REALLY are though. I'd like to believe you are not as much of a jerk as the characters you create. Okay, wraith is not too much of a jerk.

[Gregor]

Tricky
I second the Franko as MMan vote.

[Franko]

Well, that pretty much settles the question. Franko, I must compliment you on your ability to create believable, internally consistant characters. Apparently all those hours of playing D&D have had some use. I'm sure even the "Franko" character is carefully planned. I'm glad you're having fun at this. It makes me wonder who you REALLY are though. I'd like to believe you are not as much of a jerk as the characters you create. Okay, wraith is not too much of a jerk.

hehehe ... you really are getting paranoid old man.

Ohh, well ... it's like I said Trixy, other than the One person reading this post ... we are all figments of your imagination.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko
Ohh, well ... it's like I said Trixy, other than the One person reading this post ... we are all figments of your imagination.
You know, Dungeonmaster, I am beginning to realize this is true. You are not Franko. You are not wraith. You are not Muscleman. I don't know who you are. All I see is these characters that you have pulled out of your games portfolio. I am free to imagine them how I like, but of course you set their characteristics.

I am glad you find this little game amusing, and yes, I have enjoyed playing. Why can't you make some "nice guy" characters though? Do they have to be jerks in order to generate the attention you require? Well, I suppose I can see your point. It's very much like Monty Python's Argument Clinic. If your going to stage an argument, you must take up a contrary position.

I do wish you would spend a little time getting your characters to say new things though. It's so much more fun when you are unpredictable.

[Samus]

Originally posted by muscleman
From the limited view= We have freewill, this is derived from our higher intelligence. We can detect what the smaller intelligent creatures cant, in being able to detect more, your being aware of more. But God gave us enough brain to detect the info we need to choose. Things doesnt seem as they appear to us, thus we dont know whats ahead of us...

From the unlimited point of view (omniscience;God)= We dont have freewill. We live by instincts, an instincts given by God, just as we dont see ants having freewill. okay, getting back to the topic of this thread, let me first make sure I am understanding your argument. You say that free will does not exist, because from god's perspective, we're doing exactly what he "programmed" us to do. We think we have free will because of our intelligence and reasoning capabilities relative to other species on this planet.

Is this an accurate assessment of your platform? Please correct me if it is not.

While your argument is a valid one if god does exist, it falls on its face if god doesn't. So, can you provide some evidence to support your assumption of god existing?

muscleman wrote:
Now lets go back to the limited view= Im tired of all these ignorant kids (many atheists here) who says "God is so mean, because he allows little children to be killed and hurt, therefore I dont want to worship Him, because he is powerfull (sic) Ignorant kids, eh? Nice.

Assuming the existence of god, all your comments that follow this make sense. God's job is not to watch over everybody to make sure everyone gets a fair shake. Oh, wait, why do people pray to God? If I'm going to get robbed or have my house burn down regardless of whether I pray, then why should I? It is a selfish argument for sure.

Some people believe that you can be bad all your life, repent at the 11th hour, and go to heaven. What's up with that? How is that fair? Still others believe you have to lead a good life to get into heaven. Others think that sacrificing their own life to attack our way of life will give them eternal happiness. Who is right?

[Franko]

Tricky:

Why can't you make some "nice guy" characters though?

Ohhh, but that's just it Trixy ... They are all nice guys! It just doesn't appear that they are from your twisted, demented, consequence-free perception. You have redefined "UP" to mean "DOWN", "FATE" to mean "free will", and "Good" to mean "evil".

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by muscleman
and who does the guy think of himself anyways? Im a fighter myself, I box sincce when I was 12, and now train hard to have under 9% body fat. I can fight myself, never losed a fight in my life (sportswise). Im 5' 7, 190 lbs, and Im looking for the right place to put my carrier. That guy acts hes all hard, I can probably kick his butt...

This explains why muscleman claims to win all his arguments. We know it is not because of his logic, spelling, or grammar. It is certainly not because of his grasp of theology and the bible. It can only be that his name, muscleman, describes his debating technique.

muscleman argument tactic:

First I will "wow" or subdue them with endless streams of tiresome cliches and drivel.
When that fails, I will call them idiots and children.
Try cliches and drivel again.
Punch in face.

I, personally, am glad to have this Internet thing between us.

[Kullervo]

No one's pointed out that Musselman is a term for Muslim. (I don't know if its neutral or derogatory).

Also the Musselman Mesto is a bar in Clockwork Orange.

[Aardvark_DK]

[gumby mode]

DOCTOR! READING MUSCLEMAN'S POSTS MAKES MY BRAIN HURT!

... WHAT DO YOU MEAN "STOP SHOUTING"?

[/gumby mode]

[Franko]

Also the Musselman Mesto is a bar in Clockwork Orange.

A "miloko" bar? :D

Clockwork Orange, that's a good movie/book.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by dwb
okay, getting back to the topic of this thread, let me first make sure I am understanding your argument. You say that free will does not exist, because from god's perspective, we're doing exactly what he "programmed" us to do. We think we have free will because of our intelligence and reasoning capabilities relative to other species on this planet.

Is this an accurate assessment of your platform? Please correct me if it is not.

While your argument is a valid one if god does exist, it falls on its face if god doesn't. So, can you provide some evidence to support your assumption of god existing?

Ignorant kids, eh? Nice.

Assuming the existence of god, all your comments that follow this make sense. God's job is not to watch over everybody to make sure everyone gets a fair shake. Oh, wait, why do people pray to God? If I'm going to get robbed or have my house burn down regardless of whether I pray, then why should I? It is a selfish argument for sure.

Some people believe that you can be bad all your life, repent at the 11th hour, and go to heaven. What's up with that? How is that fair? Still others believe you have to lead a good life to get into heaven. Others think that sacrificing their own life to attack our way of life will give them eternal happiness. Who is right?

All i was trying to say is this.. As a human being, we dont see ants having freewill, considering that our intelligence is so high, that almost everything they do is predictable (or maybe all of what they do in fact..) But from the ants point of view, they have freewill, because they are unaware of whats around them (whether food or predators come from different direction)..

God sees us the same way, from His point of view, we dont have freewill. But we do have freewill from our view. (I hope you recognize the order of what Im trying to say, from lowe intelligence to higher intelligence.)

Now about us having freewill. God never interupts our decision in life (except he can take away your life as he wills for he gave it to you in the first place.)

Like you said about prayers. God never healed you when you ask him to heal your cancer, or when you asked him for money. YOUR FAITH HAS HEALED YOU, they call this "placebo" or "mind over matter".
Have u noticed that when jesus cured peeps in the bible, he always end "YOUR FAITH HAS HEALED YOU"... From the bleeding woman, to the blind, to the centurion. Jesus didnt say "MY POWER HAVE HEALED YOU", HE SAID "YOUR FAITH HAS HEALED YOU"...

As I was saying from the beggining, we have always been self sufficient and independent...

"If u have a faith as small as a mustard seed, u can tell the mountains to move from here to there and it will move"- Jesus.

Mustard seed (faith) in this analogy may relate to the "KIng dom of God can b likened to a mustard seed", which itself also needs developing...

---------------------------------------------------------

About the people who believed u can be bad all your life, repent, then go to heaven, this are the PROTEST- ANTS..

"For the same measure u give it shall be measured back unto you"- Jesus..

"Amen I say unto you, not one of your sins will leave you forgotten"- Jesus...

There is a place we call "Purgatory"- it is a realm where sins are being cleansed, almost all souls go here, for in order to enter heaven, the soul must be purified as gold tested on fire. Purgatory is proven in the scriptures, but sadly the protestants dont have it in their bible because Martin Luther took it out. (I cant remember the name of the book.)

[Bjorn]

God created selfish man (who cares nothing but themselves, will kill, rape, molest kids, and lie as he wishes) then created hell for him, BECAUSE HE DESERVE IT. ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY HE DONT DESERVE IT? WHY? Maybe because, if God created him that way, he can't help being that way? :(

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Bjorn

How incredibly considerate of Him - but how I wish he had created me good, so I could go to heaven instead.


This is what Ive been trying to talk about in the sentence. People never complain like that. When your living in the state of happiness (where everything goes your way without caring for others.).
I can never hear Mike Tyson or Bill Gates say "I just wish God made me poor, simple, caring for the others alone".. I dont hear them, for if anyone hear them, and if they mean it. Then they will give up their possesions, and search for the truth, then they wont deserve hell any longer (this is what we call conversion)..

As in your case, you said you wish God created you to be good, being good is living a sacrificial life (caring for the poor, forgiving, patient, loving enemy, etc.), NOW DO YOU MEAN IT? OR ARE YOU JUST SAYING THIS ONCE AGAIN TO MAKE A FOOL OUT OF GOD? BECAUSE IF YOU REALLY MEAN THIS, U CAN CHANGE TODAY, YOUR DESTINY CAN CHANGE TODAY...

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Maybe because, if God created him that way, he can't help being that way? :(

We are not called to b succesfull, but to b faithfull, even then u still have to try. But many dont try to begin with, because they dont have faith in themselves. So once again from our point of view, since we dont know, we do have freewill, LETS LEAVE IT TO THAT AND NOT WISH IT IS YOU THAT IS DESTINED TO HELL AND NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE...

[Kullervo]

The old moloko plus, milk with knives in it. you peet it with synthamesc, drencom, or vellocet, to sharpen you up for a bit of the old ultraviolence....

however, the muscleman coffee mesto....will the english....

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by muscleman


We are not called to b succesfull, but to b faithfull, even then u still have to try. But many dont try to begin with, because they dont have faith in themselves. So once again from our point of view, since we dont know, we do have freewill, LETS LEAVE IT TO THAT AND NOT WISH IT IS YOU THAT IS DESTINED TO HELL AND NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE... But clearly, when God created this evil man, God must have known if the man would change and become good, or not. Or do you mean the God simply doesn't know what will happen to each of us?
:confused:

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by muscleman



About the people who believed u can be bad all your life, repent, then go to heaven, this are the PROTEST- ANTS..

"For the same measure u give it shall be measured back unto you"- Jesus..

"Amen I say unto you, not one of your sins will leave you forgotten"- Jesus...

There is a place we call "Purgatory"- it is a realm where sins are being cleansed, almost all souls go here, for in order to enter heaven, the soul must be purified as gold tested on fire. Purgatory is proven in the scriptures, but sadly the protestants dont have it in their bible because Martin Luther took it out. (I cant remember the name of the book.)

I think you need to read some actual historical accounts of the history of the Catholic church instead of relying on material provided by the church itself. The Catholic Church has committed hoorendous atrocities on humanity in the name of Jesus. You claim the Popes had no knowledge of this, but the fact is, many of the popes until recent history have been corrupt, greedy, and intolerant people.

Your apparent dislike for Protestants also shows your ignorance. The entire Christian concept of an afterlife is based on this statement by Jesus:
"Whosoever believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
This includes the Roman Catholic Church.

This statement alone proves that all you need do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, Son of God, and all-around swell guy to get into heaven.

Oh, and purgatory? Didn't Jesus supposedly destroy purgatory on his ressurection? You need to investigate your religion a little more objectively, especially considering that you are posting to a critical-thinker's forum.

[Doctor X]

U CAN CHANGE TODAY, YOUR DESTINY CAN CHANGE TODAY...

As noted previously, the child tried very hard to do this . . . failed in the end.

Apparently the individual is interested in racism and not the welfare of children?

--J.D.

[Franko]

whitefork:

The old moloko plus, milk with knives in it. you peet it with synthamesc, drencom, or vellocet, to sharpen you up for a bit of the old ultraviolence....

however, the muscleman coffee mesto....will the english....

You do realize that Clockwork Orange was (at least in part) about Determinism -- Conditioning?

[Franko]

twojo:

I think you need to read some actual historical accounts of the history of the Catholic church instead of relying on material provided by the church itself. The Catholic Church has committed hoorendous atrocities on humanity in the name of Jesus. You claim the Popes had no knowledge of this, but the fact is, many of the popes until recent history have been corrupt, greedy, and intolerant people.

Your apparent dislike for Protestants also shows your ignorance. The entire Christian concept of an afterlife is based on this statement by Jesus:
"Whosoever believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
This includes the Roman Catholic Church.

This statement alone proves that all you need do is believe that Jesus was the Messiah, Son of God, and all-around swell guy to get into heaven.

Oh, and purgatory? Didn't Jesus supposedly destroy purgatory on his ressurection? You need to investigate your religion a little more objectively, especially considering that you are posting to a critical-thinker's forum.

Are you actually trying to assert that unless muscleman is a Bible Literalist that he cannot be a True Christian?

Did God tell you this personally through divine revelation, or did you determine it from the entrails of a goat?

[Loki]

Franko,

You do realize that Clockwork Orange was (at least in part) about Determinism -- Conditioning?
And you do realise that Clockwork Orange was (in the end) about the triumph of individualism over conditioning?

I always enjoyed Alex's conversion to christianity - he loved the bible because of the violent bits, in particular the crucifixion. Classic scene where he imagines himself as a Centurion whipping Christ!

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Franko


Are you actually trying to assert that unless muscleman is a Bible Literalist that he cannot be a True Christian?

Did God tell you this personally through divine revelation, or did you determine it from the entrails of a goat?

I don't see where you get that from what I wrote. I was merely commenting on your dislike of Protestants by pointing out that the negatives qualities you attribute to Protestantism are characteristics of Christianity in general. This includes Catholicism.

[Franko]

Loki:

And you do realise that Clockwork Orange was (in the end) about the triumph of individualism over conditioning?

Yeah, and if you had ANY understanding of either you would realize that they are NOT incompatible at all.

I always enjoyed Alex's conversion to christianity - he loved the bible because of the violent bits, in particular the crucifixion. Classic scene where he imagines himself as a Centurion whipping Christ!

Personally, my favorite scene was when he met the two Chicks in the record shop and then quickly convinced them to come back to his place for a threesome.

But hey … maybe you just have different priorities than me?

[Franko]

I don't see where you get that from what I wrote. I was merely commenting on your dislike of Protestants by pointing out that the negatives qualities you attribute to Protestantism are characteristics of Christianity in general. This includes Catholicism.

When have I ever bad-mouthed Protestants? I like Christians of all varieties, the less dogmatic the better.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Franko


When have I ever bad-mouthed Protestants? I like Christians of all varieties, the less dogmatic the better.
tjwojo means "you" when you are in your "Muscleman" character,
Dungeonmaster (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=325726&highlight=Dungeonmaster#post325726). It really saves time just to reply to all your characters as a single person.

[Franko]

tjwojo means "you" when you are in your "Muscleman" character ...

Hey, if you want to pretend that you have magic "free will" powers and that someone else's words are mine than that is YOUR problem.

Like I said, don't bad-mouthed Protestants, or any other sect of Christianity.

[Loki]

Franko,

Yeah, and if you had ANY understanding of either you would realize that they are NOT incompatible at all.
Hey Franko - you going all compatibilist on me? Think about exactly what you just said ... or not, as you wish.

… maybe you just have different priorities than me?
Thankfully, yes.

[Franko]

Loki: (A-Theist)
Hey Franko - you going all compatibilist on me? Think about exactly what you just said ... or not, as you wish.

Everyone saw me predict you would COP-OUT with Copoutalism Loki, and that is exactly what you did. If you want to further humiliate yourself on this point I’ll be more than happy to assist you. When are you going to explain why you believe Copout-alism proves you have more “free will” then the Moon does? What is your evidence that you have “choices” Loki? What is your evidence that you used “free will” to determine who your parents were?

Thankfully, yes.

Yeah, you fantasize about whipping and torturing a young male God, and I fantasize about having sex with multiple women at once. I wonder which of us is more likely to see their fantasy realized?

[SpaceLord]

I can't find where it became so obvious that muscleman is franko's puppet. Did franko do this to test us? What's the point? If franko is muscleman, he can vary his sentence structure enough to be fairly convincing.

[Franko]

I can't find where it became so obvious that muscleman is franko's puppet. Did franko do this to test us? What's the point? If franko is muscleman, he can vary his sentence structure enough to be fairly convincing.

Maybe I didn't want to make too many post under the "Franko" nickname?

Or maybe the A-Theists finally convinced me that TRUTH is determined by the number of people making a similar claim?

or maybe muscleman is not my sock-puppet and there really is a world beyond this forum where "Franko" is not the only person to believe in a Deity?

[Ossai]

Interesting Ian
However as you do not know what the nature of our ultimate teleological destinies might be, you cannot therefore declare that the laws of nature could be so altered to eliminate pain without having any repercussions for our ultimate destinies. It is a simple logical point. That completely misses the mark as there is just as much chance of no ultimate destiny. You are postulating an unknown in the hopes that we are advancing toward it.

It may or may not balance. This doesn't alter the self-evident truth of my remark that we cannot conclude that God contrived the world so that some suffer disproportionately. But the simple fact remains that suffering is not equilaterally spread throughout the world. Some suffer more than others.

Muscleman
Listen, if God was to stop man from doing what he wants to do, then God will be taking away his freewill, whats next? But there are numerous ways that an omni- god could stop the man without taking away his freewill. That is just a straw man you are erecting.

From the unlimited point of view (omniscience;God)= We dont have freewill. We live by instincts, an instincts given by God, just as we dont see ants having freewill. And therein lies the rub. If our freewill is merely an illusion due to our ignorance then god is the one directly responsible for every evil act every committed. No single person should be in hell. They did not have a choice in the matter of their actions, and were basically just playing a part in god’s play.
For example:
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. and

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

I have the burden of proof of the existence of God, and I can pprove Him..

You in the other hand have the burden of proof that God dont exist, AND YOU CANT PROVE JACK... You are the one making the extraordinary claim and therefore must provide the extraordinary evidence. I’m still waiting…

If yopu want to prove Godd dont exist, you must eliminate everything we give due to God..
Such as we believe he is the creator of life.. If that be the standard then you have a few thousand gods to disprove yourself. Let’s start with Odin, Freya and Thor. After all the all father created the earth, disprove my claim. :rolleyes:

Ossai

[Doctor X]

Great, he muses, now we have two puppies yelping.

Returns to his paper. . . .

--J.D.

[Gregor]

Great misdirection Mr. Frankoman:

"Purgatory is in the Bible, but Martin Luther took it out. I can't remember the exact book right now."

This thread has been a mild distraction, the worthless arguments of Musclo are growing old.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by muscleman
and who does the guy think of himself anyways? Im a fighter myself, I box sincce when I was 12, and now train hard to have under 9% body fat. I can fight myself, never losed a fight in my life (sportswise). Im 5' 7, 190 lbs, and Im looking for the right place to put my carrier. That guy acts hes all hard, I can probably kick his butt...

Never "losed" a fight! Cool. Have you fighted a lot?

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Franko


When have I ever bad-mouthed Protestants? I like Christians of all varieties, the less dogmatic the better.

You must be joking.

[Loki]

Franko,

Everyone saw me predict you would COP-OUT with Copoutalism Loki, and that is exactly what you did.
Yes, I'm sure all 3 of the interested readers noted where I asked you to explain your understanding of compatibilism, and then offer some points of contention. To which you replied (in essence)

"When are you going to explain why you believe Copout-alism proves you have more “free will” then the Moon does?"

As I've said, make an effort and I'll respond. Keep comparing the Moon and consciousness and I'll just have to wait...

Yeah, you fantasize about whipping and torturing a young male God, and I fantasize about having sex with multiple women at once.
Technical note - appreciating the humor and style of the crucifixion scence in Clockwork Orange is not the same as endulging in such fantasies. But such subtle (or not so subtle) detail is not your forte, is it?

I wonder which of us is more likely to see their fantasy realized?
You, of course. As far as I can tell, your entire life is a fantasy.

[billydkid]

First, I must confess, I don't believe there is a god (or there are "gods") in any meaningful sense of the word and I certainly believe that the god of popular religions is utter nonsense. Does that make me an atheist (sorry Frank, A-theist) or an agnostic? I don't KNOW there isn't a god, but I don't believe there is one. However, as far as the pointless suffering = no god argument, it doesn't really carry much weight with me (not that anyone could really give a crap what I think).

I will admit, it pretty much rules out any notion of the just and compassionate god that most of us grew up with in the way that I understand those terms. In this universe and certainly in this world there absolutely is no natural justice. In the event there actually was a "creator" of some sort, I wouldn't have any sort of intellectual problem accepting the proposition that ordinary human suffering factors in not at all in his design. I think there are vast "mountains" of non-evidence for there being any god creature participating in our existence. I find it irritating in the extreme when I hear stories of "God" (or one of his minions) saving people from catastrophe or curing ills or other miraculous manifestations.

Any god who arbitrary saves one person from a car wreck or destroys a brain tumor in another or cures someone's bunions, lets millions and millions of innocents suffer horribly and for no purpose would be a very pathetic god indeed. Furthermore, any god who allows the torture and murder of "god" knows how many "heathens" (Remember this Franko, we are all heathens to somebody) in his own name deserves about as much worship as those other equivalent gods that I flush down the toilet on a fairly regular basis.

This is the crux of the deal for me. It seems more than just obvious that the notion of a benevolent god that participates in our existence is patently ridiculous. But a god who does not participate in our existence is pretty damn irrelevent. I would really like to know what Ian really thinks god is. I've read his arguments back and forth between a lot of you guys, but I can not begin to get a handle on who his god might really be and in what ways he could possibly be relevent. Apparently, we need Ian's "soul" in order to have free will and in order to have that soul it must come from god. Frankly, I don't seen the need to reach beyond actual reality to account for amazingness of human beings, the world and the universe. Sorry for the inevitable typos.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by billydkid
First, I must confess, I don't believe there is a god (or there are "gods") in any meaningful sense of the word and I certainly believe that the god of popular religions is utter nonsense. Does that make me an atheist (sorry Frank, A-theist) or an agnostic? I don't KNOW there isn't a god, but I don't believe there is one. However, as far as the pointless suffering = no god argument, it doesn't really carry much weight with me (not that anyone could really give a crap what I think).

I will admit, it pretty much rules out any notion of the just and compassionate god that most of us grew up with in the way that I understand those terms. In this universe and certainly in this world there absolutely is no natural justice. In the event there actually was a "creator" of some sort, I wouldn't have any sort of intellectual problem accepting the proposition that ordinary human suffering factors in not at all in his design. I think there are vast "mountains" of non-evidence for there being any god creature participating in our existence. I find it irritating in the extreme when I hear stories of "God" (or one of his minions) saving people from catastrophe or curing ills or other miraculous manifestations.
(snip)


I think that you might be considered a "soft" athiest. One who doesn't know that there's a god, so acts as if there isn't. A lot of the people on this forum, including me, fit into this category. It's almost equivalent to an agnostic. An agnostic, to me, could also not know there's a god, but act as if there was one.

Doctor X's Pontine Tumor Proof isn't really intended to prove that there isn't a god, it's intended to provide evidence against a "triple omni-" god. You know, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent., like the Xtian God is supposed to be.

Reading your comment, you already basically understand this. It just gets confusing when presented in a thread like this, when the people on the theist side never actually address the scenario given.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by specious_reasons


I think that you might be considered a "soft" athiest. One who doesn't know that there's a god, so acts as if there isn't. A lot of the people on this forum, including me, fit into this category. It's almost equivalent to an agnostic. An agnostic, to me, could also not know there's a god, but act as if there was one.

Doctor X's Pontine Tumor Proof isn't really intended to prove that there isn't a god, it's intended to provide evidence against a "triple omni-" god. You know, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent., like the Xtian God is supposed to be.

Reading your comment, you already basically understand this. It just gets confusing when presented in a thread like this, when the people on the theist side never actually address the scenario given.

That's strange because I believe I have already done that. All people are doing is repeating what I've already comprehensively addressed. What am I supposed to say? No-one has said anything of any substance so far against the points I've made so I'm not sure of the purpose of simply repeating myself again. And I have other things to do. Sorry. Now if someone were to say anything wothwhile . . . well, that'd be great.

[specious_reasons]

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

That's strange because I believe I have already done that. All people are doing is repeating what I've already comprehensively addressed. What am I supposed to say? No-one has said anything of any substance so far against the points I've made so I'm not sure of the purpose of simply repeating myself again. And I have other things to do. Sorry. Now if someone were to say anything wothwhile . . . well, that'd be great.

No offense intended, I was referring to the starter of this thread, sorry for the misunderstanding. Quite frankly, I had tuned out of your sub-thread.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally posted by specious_reasons


No offense intended, I was referring to the starter of this thread, sorry for the misunderstanding. Quite frankly, I had tuned out of your sub-thread.

Oh ok. I've been drinking so probably my fault! ;)

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Bjorn
But clearly, when God created this evil man, God must have known if the man would change and become good, or not. Or do you mean the God simply doesn't know what will happen to each of us?
:confused:

This is your problem, like I was saying KID. From an Omniscient view, we dont have freewill, because he knows our destiny. But from our view (and in case u didnt know, we are not omniscient and we dont know our destiny.) we have freewill..
You dont know if yur going to hell or heaven in the future ok?

ONCE AGAIN, YOU HAVE FREEWILL, YOU ARE AWARE OF WHAT YUR DOING, SO DONT ACT LIKE A DUMMY AND SAY U DONT HAVE FREEWILL (ARE U AN ACTOR? OR REALLY A DUMMY?)...

Note: This is the 2nd time Im trying to explain this common sense..

[Loki]

Muscleman,

There is no Free Will - none at all. This is simply a concept invented by atheists to confuse you poor believers. You have been suckered well and good. Perhaps you will one day realise just how far astray you have been lead - or perhaps not.

Free Will - hah, you idiot!

[muscleman]

Loki,

Maybe you dont have freewill, but I know I do. If someone offered you a dog crap, and a banana to eat, youll probably pick the dog crap and chew it because u dont have free WILL, because your brain is as small as a peanut, BUT THATS JUST YOU. You cant make decisions for yourself, your a moron, your asked to cook some for dinner, but since yu dont have freewill, youll probably eat some dog crap instead, BUT THEN AGAIN THAT IS JUST YOU..

JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE FREE-WILL AND CANT MAKE DECISIONS FOR YOURSELF, DONT ASSUME WE ARE LIKE YOU, IM CERTAINLY NOT LIKE YOU AND I CAN MAKE DECISIONS FOR MYSELF...

So good luck with your freewill is a myth delusional guy......

THINK ABOUT IT....YOUR BRAINWASHED TO THE MAX, HARDCORE...By who? Sagan? who believes that we should treat every species as we do to humans (which includes termines, etc.). Your so brainwashed that u cant even think for yourself kid........

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by muscleman
From an Omniscient view, we dont have freewill, because he knows our destiny. But from our view (...we are not omniscient and we dont know our destiny.) we have freewill..
Okay,

God is omniscient.
God's view: We don't have free will.

We are not omniscient.
Our view: We have free will.

DO YOU NOT SEE THE CONTRADICTION.
(****, must have hit the "caps" key, sorry)

Let me summarize....

The omniscient view that WE do not have free will (being omniscient) must be correct and the non-omniscient view that WE do have free will (being non-omniscient) must be incorrect.

Summary: WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL
(sorry, hit the "caps" key again, really sorry)

Say it muscleman.....

We do not have free will.

Hell, repeat it three times.....

We do not have free will.
We do not have free will.
We do not have free will.

****, shout it man....

WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL


There, that's better.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Okay,

God is omniscient.
God's view: We don't have free will.

We are not omniscient.
Our view: We have free will.

DO YOU NOT SEE THE CONTRADICTION.
(****, must have hit the "caps" key, sorry)

Let me summarize....

The omniscient view that WE do not have free will (being omniscient) must be correct and the non-omniscient view that WE do have free will (being non-omniscient) must be incorrect.

Summary: WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL
(sorry, hit the "caps" key again, really sorry)

Say it muscleman.....

We do not have free will.

Hell, repeat it three times.....

We do not have free will.
We do not have free will.
We do not have free will.

****, shout it man....

WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL


There, that's better.

Brainwashed ignorant kids.........

If an omniscient creator says "we have freewill" then he is NOT omniscient, because omniscient means "all-knowing" and he designed you...

A limited person however does NOT KNOW the destiny of himself, and his fellowmen (he doesnt know the future outcome) NOW HE HAVE A FREEWILL, to make his decisions CURRENTLY SPEAKING, he makes decision for himself today, FOR tommorrow......

I SEE NO CONTRADICTION, BECAUSE I AINT BRAINWASHED LIKE YOU... I HAVE COMMON SENSE, UNLIKE YOU WHO THINKS WE HAVE NO FREEWILL, WHAT A MORON......LOL

[Br000chie]

Originally posted by muscleman
Maybe you dont have freewill, but I know I do. If someone offered you a dog crap, and a banana to eat, youll probably pick the dog crap and chew it because u dont have free WILL


Actually, choosing the dog crap would be more of an indicator of free will since it flies in the face of 'maximum perceived benefit'. If you wished to demonstrate your free will you should select the dog crap over the banana.

Will you chew on the dog crap, muscleman?

[muscleman]

Brooche, are u an atheist? or theist?

I believe we have freewill, Im a theist, we can make decisions for ourself today FOR tommorrow...

Now this mentally challenged kids (the atheist above) is saying we dont have freewill, in other words, we cant make decisions for ourself today for tommorrow. THIS STATEMENT IS OK COMING FROM AN OMNISCIENT POINT OF VIEW, GOD WHO CREATED US, BUT ATHEIST ARENT ALL-KNOWING, THEY CERTAINLY AINT GOD..

I GIVE 1 MILLION DOLLAR CHALLENGE TO ANYONE HERE WHO CAN PROVE TO ME WE DONT HAVE FREEWILL...

I challenge any atheist here to know every single thing Im gonna choose in life, what I desire, what I think and what I do...

WE DO HAVE FREEWILL, THATS A FACT...

ATHEIST MAKE A CLAIM I DONT HAVE FREEWILL, NOW PROVE IT...I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO KNOW EVERY SINGLE THING I AM ABOUT TO DO IN DETAIL.........

(Kids...)

[Aardvark_DK]

Okay, Muscleman and Franko are not the same person. There's no way Franko could fake believing in free will.

[Ossai]

muscleman
A limited person however does NOT KNOW the destiny of himself, and his fellowmen (he doesnt know the future outcome) NOW HE HAVE A FREEWILL, to make his decisions CURRENTLY SPEAKING, he makes decision for himself today, FOR tommorrow......
No, according to you we have the illusion of freewill. Ignorance is not freewill.

ATHEIST MAKE A CLAIM I DONT HAVE FREEWILL, NOW PROVE IT...I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO KNOW EVERY SINGLE THING I AM ABOUT TO DO IN DETAIL......... Actually you are the one making the claim no to have freewill.

Ossai

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Br000chie

Will you chew on the dog crap, muscleman?

I get the impression that he does this frequently, as this is all that spews from his mouth. Perhaps he likes to swallow metaphorical feces, but the rest of us are inclined to politely refuse the offer.

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
Okay, Muscleman and Franko are not the same person. There's no way Franko could fake believing in free will.

That is all part of becoming a different character. I will grant Franko that he plays the part well.

However, it does not really matter whether they are the same person or not. They are both convinced of their view points and nothing said will ever change their minds.

Honestly, I believe both are actually atheists who are out to demonstrate the absurdity of theist claims. They are doing a great job. They helped to convert me to atheism. ;)

[mindless]

I belive that God did exist, but died of old age 293 years ago, so now we have no God to belive in.

Simple test, if God is still here let him smite me with death now and prevent me posting this message.

A God that can't interact with our universe is irrelivant, and such a simple test of its powers would be easy to demonstrait.

p.s. Respect to Stimpy for sticking with this thread all the way through, its been interesting, The way I see it, you have 100% of the points so far.

p.p.s. This thread is now 6 pages long, where is this proof muscleman? I don't see it.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Ossai
muscleman

No, according to you we have the illusion of freewill. Ignorance is not freewill.

Ossai

We make decisions for ourselves. We can decide what the rules we set in our house, or not,the way we will it. You can choose to eat crap, instead of cake (as some germans would do, :)). You can will to ride a bike to work, instead of taking a bus.. If u call that "Illusion of freewill" thats fine with me, but one more thing and do yourself a favor, and ask yourself this question "AM I RETARDED?"........


THE ONLY REAL LOSER HERE IS YOU GUYS, BECAUSE THERE ARE AUDIENCE HERE WHO PAYS ATTENTION TO "LOGIC"...SOMETHING YOU GUYS DONT HAVE.........
------------------------------------------------

edited= Mindless, your name speaks for itself, YOUR A FAT LIAR. You know u dont believe in that Gopd, you know yur just saying that to make a fool out of us....

I dont believe in your God, noone I know does...

People belive in toothfairies, I dont. Ask them, dont ask me...

Confront me with my beliefs, not with toothfairies, therefore ask me questions in the realm of the christian God, instead of yur 293 yrs old God. Read the post "Taking your soul back", thread started by me.. People hjave different gods, some worship women, cars, or television, you worship a 293 yrs old God.....Well good luck mindless.......

[muscleman]

heres the thread mindless, and grow up stupid........

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13530

[Bjorn]

Muscle,

A few posts ago I asked you:

But clearly, when God created this evil man, God must have known if the man would change and become good, or not. Or do you mean the God simply doesn't know what will happen to each of us? I know you posted a reply, but I cannot see that you answered the question: Does God know what will happen to each of us, or not?

:confused:

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Bjorn
Muscle,

A few posts ago I asked you:

I know you posted a reply, but I cannot see that you answered the question: Does God know what will happen to each of us, or not?

:confused:

Its ok, being brainwashed with lies for many years, then all of a sudden being fed by the truth doesnt easily take away the lies u have been given all those years, it take some humility and time....


Originally posted by Bjorn
Muscle,
Originally posted by Bjorn
But clearly, when God created this evil man, God must have known if the man would change and become good, or not. Or do you mean the God simply doesn't know what will happen to each of us?

Yes, God knows whoever that man is (U dont know who) whether he will become good in the future or not, because God have NO Limits (unless of course he DECIDED to limit himself upon certain things, he can do that too :) )....


like I was saying. From an Omniscient view, we dont have freewill, because he knows our destiny. Just as from our view, ants dont have freewill if we ever placed them in some form of maze, we can control them, and make them move the way we please.... (because we know everything an ant knows..)

But from our view (and in case u didnt know, we are not omniscient and we dont know our destiny.) we have freewill..
You dont know if yur going to hell or heaven in the future, so if you dont want to be the oone destined to hell, WHY NOT CHANGE YOURSELF AND DO GOOD? So that u can avoid hell? People are going to heaven, people are going to hell, it is for you to choose your destiny (for none of us knows whats ahead but God alone)....


ONCE AGAIN, YOU HAVE FREEWILL, YOU ARE AWARE OF WHAT YUR DOING, SO DONT ACT LIKE A DUMMY AND SAY U ARE INCAPABLE OF DOING GOOD WHEN YOU ARE, YOU CAN GO OUT RIGHT NOW AND JUST GREET PEEPS WITH A SMILE, THEN SAY "THE REAL MEANING OF LIFE IS CARING FOR ONE ANOTHER"...THAT RIGHT THERE IS A GOOD ACT...ARE YOU INCAPABLE OF THAT? ARE YOU DELUSIONAL? ARE YOU RETARDED? I DONT THINK YOU ARE....ARE YOU? :)

Note: This is the THIRD time Im trying to explain this common sense..

[Wile E. Coyote]

You cannot have a god who knows how things will turn out and have free will at the same time. If a god knows exactly how your life will start and end and everything in between, then your fate is decided. Therefore, any choice you make, whether you believe it to be free or not, is predetermined.

You are saying that we do not have free will, although we appear to.

tjwojo to self : Why am I replying to this nitwit? Ack! Ack! (Stabs self with knife).

[Bjorn]

Muscle,

God knows whoever that man is (U dont know who) whether he will become good in the future or not, because God have NO Limits Thanks.

Since he knows already if I will be good or bad, as you write, let's just imagine he knows I will be bad forever.

Now let's also imagine I have free will, and can change 'my' mind and become good. If I do so (become good), wasn't God wrong about my future?

Will he say 'oh, that was a surprise'? Is it possible to surprise an omniscient and omnipotent God?

:confused:

[Ossai]

muscleman
We make decisions for ourselves. We can decide what the rules we set in our house, or not, the way we will it. Use some logic. If god already knows what we will decide then we cannot decide differently even if we wanted. To us it may seem like freewill but it is only ignorance and an illusion.
Now if we are just experiencing an illusion of free will then we are nothing more than actors going though the motions and the writer/director of the play is the one responsible for everything that happens in the play, rape, murder, genocide, etc.

Its ok, being brainwashed with lies for many years,( Religion )all of a sudden being fed by the truth( Reality )doesnt easily take away the lies u have been given all those years, it take some humility and time....

like I was saying. From an Omniscient view, we dont have freewill, because he knows our destiny. Just as from our view, ants dont have freewill if we ever placed them in some form of maze, we can control them, and make them move the way we please.... (because we know everything an ant knows..)

Using your ant analogy:
Who is responsible for the ant’s actions, the ant or the person controlling the ant?

tjwojo, basically freewill and infallible foreknowledge are mutually exclusive. :)

Ossai

[Doctor X]

I cannot help but notice the failure of the individual to address the question pending. I have noticed; however, that his "out" of free will--you made the choices; you suffer the consequences--does not really help the child.

I have also noticed that much of his current output consists of ungrammatical argumentum ad hominem of such a level of the puerile he can barely consider himself worthy of the kinship of the unspeakable denizens that infest his nethers.

I can only wonder what he is afraid of.

--J.D.

[Yahzi]

Musclesinsteadofbrains
We dont have freewill. We live by instincts, an instincts given by God
Listen, if God was to stop man from doing what he wants to do, then God will be taking away his freewill
If our actions are controlled by instincts given to us by God, then in what sense do we have free will? If God changes or modifies our instincts, how can that violate the free will he can't even see?

And, btw, I am more than willing to give up my free will to inflict pointless suffering on other people. Notice, for instance, that I live in a democracy, vote for law and order, and pay taxes to support police to enforce it. Ever notice how theologians that complain about God stopping rapes never seem to object to the police doing it?

I generally ignore posters once they start contradicting themselves in the same post. However, I fear my /ignore list is full, and you are not quite vile or voluminous enough to warrant a spot on that coveted roster.

[Gregor]

Please stop feeding Franko while he's wearing his pseudo-xian garb.

[Doctor X]

Will note, en passant, continued failure to address the questions posed.

For clarification:

Like a thief on the cross next to Jesus, who appeared to be a very sinfull man. . . .

Only appears in one of the texts. In another Junior receives nothing but ridicule.

Which one does one believe?

Of course, one then becomes saddled with Junior refusing to allow people to perceive his truth, "lets they turn and be saved," not to mention denying salvation to good men who are not predestined--"born from above"--for salvation.

Funny what happens when one actually analysis evidence.

Damn'd and blast'd scientific method!!

--J.D.

[Gregor]

Jesus did not go to paradise that day.

Rather, according to apocrypha he went down to Hades, then returned to the tomb.

Sounds like he led the thief astray.

[Doctor X]

Oh thou of little faith!!

Does thou not recognize that, in comparison to his life on the Earth, a life of Sin, Debauchery, Sloth, and Matza, the Days in Hades--Bruckheimer film coming soon!--prov'd a veritable PARADISE to said ruffian cutpurse!!

--J. "If our gospel is veiled it is veiled only to those who are perishing!" D.

[DanishDynamite]

muddleman:WE CAN ONLY ASSUME OR GUESS WHAT GOD THINKS Except for you, of course. Your intimate knowledge of the powers and schemes of this imaginary being is astounding.
U CAN CHANGE TODAY, YOUR DESTINY CAN CHANGE TODAY Please take your own advice. Try reading a few books dealing with reality. Perhaps your warped mind can still be salvaged.

[muscleman]

Doctor X, u think your so-smart, and yur fellow buddies, but your only making a fool of yourself, you think there is no audience here watching but you and your own kind? Well your wrong, others are watching these too. You think yur so smart, but your retarded.....


Ill post this again.. You all dont know what ur talking about, making analogies that makes no contradiction concerning an all-knowing God, and NOT an all-knowing person. I have to start from scratch, YOU PRIMITIVE KIDS......


There is order and level of intelligence, lets say from a vegetable, to insects to animals to a person then to spirits (God)..

Lets narrow that down to 4 different entity... Lets say a "plant" with iq=3, ants with iq= 5, humans with iq=6, and God with iq=9.

God created ants to have an iq=5, not iq=3

God created plants to have an iq=3, not iq=6

God created humans to have iq=6, not iq=3.

Plants are free to choose and select from 1 to 3 iq's given to him...

Humans in the same way are free to choose and select from 1 to 6 iq's given to him...

If one human selected iq number 6 (which is to rape and molest a child) instead of iq= 4 (which is to love and forgiving), God cannot interfere for if he interferes, then might as well create him into a plant (with iq= 3, incapable of iq= 5.) But God designed him to have an iq=6, and he is free to select among any of the numbers, from 1 to 6...

The same way with plants and ants, God cannot stop an ant from attacking and killing another ant (by choosing iq=5)because if he did, might as well create that certain ant into a plant (with iq=3, incapable of iq=5.)

Humans can select from iq=1 to 6, 3 of them are good, 3 of them are bad, we make the choice.. We dont know whats ahead of us, therefore we make the choice (WE CAN ONLY ASSUME OR GUESS WHAT GOD THINKS OF OUR ACTION, BECAUSE WE DONT KNOW WHAT WE ARE GOING TO BE IN THE FUTURE, THEREFORE WE MAKE OUR DESTINY TODAY FOR TOMMORROW..)

God in the other hand knows already which iq's were going to pick, because not only he created all of the 6 iq's, he also created your freewill which is iq= 3 (a certain program.) for God is a total of iq=9..

Now u might say "You are saying that God created evil man then put him in hell? that COULD BE ME (although u dont know). Well I wish God created me to be good so I can enter heaven.."


This is what Ive been trying to talk about in the PARAGRAPH OF THIS THREAD. People never complain like that. When your living in the state of happiness (where everything goes your way without caring for others.).
I can never hear Mike Tyson or Bill Gates say "I just wish God made me poor, simple, caring for the others alone".. I dont hear them, for if anyone hear them, and if they mean it. Then they will give up their possesions, and search for the truth, then they wont deserve hell any longer (this is what we call conversion)..

As in your case, you said you wish God created you to be good, being good is living a sacrificial life (caring for the poor, forgiving, patient, loving enemy, etc.), NOW DO YOU MEAN IT? OR ARE YOU JUST SAYING THIS ONCE AGAIN TO MAKE A FOOL OUT OF GOD? BECAUSE IF YOU REALLY MEAN THIS, U CAN CHANGE TODAY, YOUR DESTINY CAN CHANGE TODAY...
----------

Now incase u didnt know, state of spirituality cannot be judged from the outside. God judges differently from you and me, u see the outside, while he see the inside..You may claim to be christian, but a man who have the title "atheist" could be more virtuous than you. "For greater gifts comes forth greater responsibilities". Maybe the guy is just an atheist because he is ignorant and has never been t9ld of the truth in his life, and he cannot be accountable for the things he doesnt know "If u donot know what is sin, u CANNOT commit a sin.."

Like a thief on the cross next to Jesus, who appeared to be a very sinfull man, but Jesus took him to paradise with Him (may not b directly, but "paradise" reffered to as being united with God.) Why? Once again God sees us differently, maybe he didnt know stealing was wrong and when he knew he humbly accepted his punishment? who knows.......There were 2 of them in the same situation, but one went to heaven, the other to hell. That proves God judges differently than we do..

Or like the RIGHTEOUS priest (as the bible portrays) who offered sum amount of money, but the lady next to him offered only a penny but God loved her more.........

[muscleman]

This is what my fellow friends said about you guys not believing in freewill "You guys are retarded".....Yes they said that, although I cant prove that to you scientifically....

You want me to prove to you guys that you have freewill?

Well here, pick a number from 1 to 10.......Answer me in a few seconds and Ill prove to you that u have freewill...

Ill wait for your answer......

[Doctor X]

The Coward bleats:

Doctor X, u (sic) think your (sic) so-smart, . . .

I find it best not to fly in the face of public opinion.

Nevertheless, I must confess that it does not require much effort to recognize a fallacious collection of temper-tantrum.

. . . and yur (sic) fellow buddies, but your (sic) only making a fool of yourself, you think there is no audience here watching but you and your own kind? Well your wrong, others are watching these too. You think yur (sic) so smart, but your retarded.....

"You humans are stupid! STUPID! STUPID!!"

However, will note that evidence points to the contrary. I recognize the individual as a fool for "all other titles thou hast given away."

If the individual wished to rise above his current status, which consists of about two feet below the level of the pavement in a rather odious gutter, and no longer suffer the embarassment of having his foolishness and willful ignorance exposed to the "audience" he need merely learn to behave as a gentleman.

It remains his choice. He can change his destiney.

Nevertheless, the CHILD and the SOUL await answers. A mere concession that the individual cannot answer these points would at least elevate him above the status of coward and go a considerable way--at least a foot--towards his rehabilitation.

At least he may not get trod upon so much and flushed down the street with the rest of the garbage.

Of course, I remain an optimist, despite evidence to the contrary.

--J.D.

[muscleman]

what we call "freewill" is what you define as "illusion of freewill" then I assume you must be able to prove that "We dont have freewill" Now can u prove that I dont have freewill? Can u list in detail of everything that Im about to do?...

This is another debate but Ill deal with these right now...

Others are so-stupid beyond belief.. Do you know how abortion was legalized? Using a likely method your using, CHANGING THE DEFINITION...

The constitution defends life of a person, so in order for abortion to be legalized, they have to say that you are not a peron until u are this or that (strong, smart, etc.) This was OBVIOUSLY debunked (Stupid professor named Peter Singer, who says if a baby is retarded, they dont desrve to live..) This was opposed by the handicap, and those who have friends in coma...

THIS IS A LONG DEBATE I WILL GLADLY GET IN DETAIL BUT DOUBT IT BECAUSE OF OPONENT WITH PIGS LIKE YOU GUYS...

CHANGING DEFINITIONS OF "FREE"- "WILL" PROVES NOTHING...YOU ARE "FREE" TO "WILL" IF YOUR KID SHOULD BE PUNISHED OR NOT, WHAT IS THERE AN ILLUSION TO THESE? ARE YOU ALL-KNOWING? YOUR NOT GOD, ALTHOUGH YOUR BEST FRIEND SATAN IS MAKING YOU THINK YOU ARE (AND UR NOT AWARE OF IT..).....

[Wile E. Coyote]

Originally posted by muscleman
This is what my fellow friends said about you guys not believing in freewill "You guys are retarded".....Yes they said that, although I cant prove that to you scientifically....

You want me to prove to you guys that you have freewill?

Well here, pick a number from 1 to 10.......Answer me in a few seconds and Ill prove to you that u have freewill...

Ill wait for your answer......

I get this mental image of muscleman, a 15 year-old with too much time on his hand, sitting in his parent's basement with a bunch of his mentally deficient friends, eating pizza and laughing about how we all respond to their utter nonsense.

The fact that this idiot is supposedly American and cannot even get his signature to look like something that a native English-speaking individual would think of composing leads me to believe that he is 100% fake.

I wish bozos like this would just stop polluting an otherwise intelligent philosophical forum with their inane drivel. I wish ...

[Doctor X]

Regards it wriggling in the detrious at his feet. Seed asks him if he should summon Staff to clear it away.

No, it may still prove amusing.

Others are so-stupid beyond belief.. Do you know how abortion was legalized? Using a likely method your using, CHANGING THE DEFINITION...

Proves a non sequitur for the purpose of this debate. Nevertheless, incorrect, in a sense, since it involved an evolving understanding of development.

The constitution (sic) defends life of a person, so in order for abortion to be legalized, they have to say that you are not a peron until u (sic) are this or that (strong, smart, etc.)

If an unkind man I would wonder if he argues that he is not a person. Nevertheless, it may prove interesting to note that abortion was rarely illegal in ancient times, and, in Hellenic and Roman societies, only because it was considered robbing the father of his property.

This was OBVIOUSLY debunked. . . .

Capitals do not save it from an ipse dixit since evidence to support the CLAIM does not follow.

(Stupid professor named Peter Singer, who says if a baby is retarded, they dont desrve to live..) This was opposed by the handicap, and those who have friends in coma...

Rather considerable number of fallacies there. Incidentally, to bring this back to the SOUL question noted in another thread, people do not remain in a coma for extended periods of time. The "progress" as it were to another state.

Now the debate on Quality of Life is a separate debate from this one. However:

THIS IS A LONG DEBATE I WILL GLADLY GET IN DETAIL BUT DOUBT IT BECAUSE OF OPONENT WITH PIGS LIKE YOU GUYS...

I am afraid it is more likely that the individual cannot not provide evidence for his "DETAIL" as he has failed in the past. Perhaps one should not predict future failure based on his past failure; however, it seems prudent given that he has offered no reassurance to the contrary.

Instead, he bleats argumentum ad hominem as he watches his rants recognized as just that. In a grand argumentum ad ignorantium et captandum vulgus he summons forth "friends" whose opinions we should, for some reason, respect.

"With friends like these. . . ."

Considering the denizens with which he had created a bond in his gutter, I must prefer to ignore their input on the current situation.

Never mind, for THIS reminds us of his FAILURE to address the Question of the Child:

YOU ARE "FREE" TO "WILL" IF YOUR KID SHOULD BE PUNISHED OR NOT, . . .

The child suffered considerable punishment for reasons not clear at all to her. Her parents tried very hard to pray away this punishment. It did not happen.

Why?

ALTHOUGH YOUR BEST FRIEND SATAN IS MAKING YOU THINK YOU ARE (AND UR NOT AWARE OF IT..).....

"SATAN" derives from "stn" of course, which meant basically a "stumbling block" over which one tripp'd. It was a "good" satan if said stumbling prevented one from doing something "bad."

Seems a better friend than those claimed by this individual. He stumbled into the garbage and rather seems to enjoy it.

--J.D.

[Edited to redact to the Textus Recepticus.--Ed.]

[DanishDynamite]

tjwojo:I wish bozos like this would just stop polluting an otherwise intelligent philosophical forum with their inane drivel. I wish ... Indeed. On the other hand, it is a balance. If this forum was only frequented by materialistic atheists, we could certainly backslap each other, but most threads would just consist of preaching to the choir. There are a few deists around who can provide some interesting opposition to atheists, but really, the difference between a non-interfering-type-of-god and no-god is actually quite small.

In short, I think we need "deviants" to keep the forum lively. We especially need deviants of Win's caliber and even UCE (in his "civil" version). Deviants of the muddleman, David Wilson and Franko type, offer nothing new but do have some value as sport for beginners. They are just part of the package, I guess.

[billydkid]

Originally posted by Loki
Muscleman,

There is no Free Will - none at all. This is simply a concept invented by atheists to confuse you poor believers. You have been suckered well and good. Perhaps you will one day realise just how far astray you have been lead - or perhaps not.

Free Will - hah, you idiot!

You do understand that it is fundamental to the Christianity that humans do indeed have free will don't you? Christianity is fundamentally about us having free will. Take that out of the picture and the religion falls flat.

[Bjorn]

Muscle,

It seems once again you forgot to answer my questions:

Since he knows already if I will be good or bad, as you write, let's just imagine he knows I will be bad forever.

Now let's also imagine I have free will, and can change 'my' mind and become good. If I do so (become good), wasn't God wrong about my future?

Will he say 'oh, that was a surprise'? Is it possible to surprise an omniscient and omnipotent God?
A relatively short answer will do. :confused:

[Ossai]

muscleman
God cannot stop an ant from attacking and killing another ant Then god is not all-powerful.

God in the other hand knows already which iq's were going to pick, because not only he created all of the 6 iq's, he also created your freewill which is iq= 3 (a certain program.) for God is a total of iq=9..

Now u might say "You are saying that God created evil man then put him in hell? that COULD BE ME (although u dont know). Well I wish God created me to be good so I can enter heaven.."
No freewill, just ignorance. It means that your god is a sick sadistic bastard.

NOW DO YOU MEAN IT? OR ARE YOU JUST SAYING THIS ONCE AGAIN TO MAKE A FOOL OUT OF GOD? BECAUSE IF YOU REALLY MEAN THIS, U CAN CHANGE TODAY, YOUR DESTINY CAN CHANGE TODAY... So the all-knowing, all-powerful god already knows yet we have the power to change something god already knows. Inherent contradiction.

Well here, pick a number from 1 to 10.......Answer me in a few seconds and Ill prove to you that u have freewill...

Ill wait for your answer...... And you will have your answer as soon as you have answered the questions posed to you earlier on this thread by myself and others. For example: You claimed to be able to prove god existed, I’m still waiting…

what we call "freewill" is what you define as "illusion of freewill" then I assume you must be able to prove that "We dont have freewill" Now can u prove that I dont have freewill? Can u list in detail of everything that Im about to do?... I never claimed to have infallible foreknowledge. You are the one making the claim that your god posses the ability. Logically infallible foreknowledge and freewill are mutually contradictory. If infallible foreknowledge exists then freewill is, at best, an illusion. If freewill exists then any sort of foreknowledge is fallible.
Now since you are the one making the claim, and have yet to provide any evidence {your incessant ramblings aren’t evidence, just annoying} you must supply the needed proof of not only your gods existence but also your gods powers.

Osssai

[Bjorn]

tjwojo,

I wish bozos like this would just stop polluting an otherwise intelligent philosophical forum with their inane drivel. I wish ... DanishDynamite,

... nothing new but do have some value as sport for beginners ... I hereby plead guilty of feeding some people that many of you would rather have left starving.

I also declare that by posting in this thread, you are just as guilty as I am. :p

Funny, TJ an DD, how one (including me) can change moods, one day engaging in a heated debate with X or Y, next day it's nose up and 'we shouldn't bother because then X or Y would go away .... '. :)

Who would you/we discuss with if we all had the same knowledge and drew the same conclusions from that knowledge? http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/fragend/fragend008.gif

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by muscleman
Brainwashed ignorant kid.........I AINT BRAINWASHED LIKE YOU... I HAVE COMMON SENSE, UNLIKE YOU WHO THINKS WE HAVE NO FREEWILL, WHAT A MORON......LOL muscleman is not Franko.

Franko is a friend of mine - even though about the only thing we have in common is that neither of us believes in free will - and he would never speak to me like that.

Look, muscleman, it is REALLY simple...

God is omniscient and his view is that we do not have free will.
We are not omniscient and out view is that we do have free will.

Therefore......

....wait for it.....


WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL


If you are going to claim that you don't accept that SIMPLE bit of logic then you will succeed in convincing me that indeed you are either a troll or a COMPLETE GOOSE.
Either way I'm out of here.


BillyJoe.

[Win]

Danish:

We especially need deviants of Win's caliber and even UCE (in his "civil" version).

Thanks. I have to go, uh, play with my hamsters now.

But first, let me throw a quick comment into the mix. From the perspective of Catholic theology, God is a necessary being who created the world as a free act of divine will. This creates a problem, to wit: Doesn't God's necessity render his choices either necessary or whimsical?

The attentive will see how this problem mirrors the problem of "free will" on the level of human beings.

More later, perhaps ...

[Loki]

Win,

Doesn't God's necessity render his choices either necessary or whimsical?
Sometimes you are positively cruel, Win! Still, even such minor attempts to introduce some vague simulation of theology into this thread seem doomed. But thanks for trying.

---------------------------------------

Muscleman,

...I'm trying to help you. Look, christianity is in the grip of a conspiracy of a size beyond your wildest imagination. The bible doesn't preach Free Will. In the early days of the church the True Christians (tm) didn't believe in Free Will. It's a purly atheist invention, fed into the christian mindset to blind you to the true nature of man and god. The more you shout about the existence of Free Will, the better we know we've succeeded! Positive feedback like your posts is invaluable in letting us know just how well the lie is being accepted. Face it - you've been duped!

Let me put it another way. You're not mistaken about Free Will - you're being deliberately lied to at the highest levels of the church. Just think about that for a moment - you're being lied to by the church.

[muscleman]

Originally posted by BillyJoe
muscleman is not Franko.

Franko is a friend of mine - even though about the only thing we have in common is that neither of us believes in free will - and he would never speak to me like that.

Look, muscleman, it is REALLY simple...

God is omniscient and his view is that we do not have free will.
We are not omniscient and out view is that we do have free will.

Therefore......

....wait for it.....


WE DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL



Billy this is what your saying..."to God's view we dont have freewill, to humans view we have freewill, therefore.............WE DOPNT HAVE FREEWILL BECAUSE WE ARE GOD!!"

STUPID BILLY, BELIEVE IT OR NOT YOUR NOT GOD, EITHER YOU HAVE FREEWILL, OR U DONT, PERIOD..... CAN YOU PROVE I DONT HAVE FREEWILL? NO YOU CANT, CAN I PROVE YOU HAVE FREEWILL? YES I CAN...ANSWER THIS, ARE U GAY? U ANSWER THIS QUESTION, AND I ALREADY HAVE PROVEN TO YOU YOU HAVE FREEWILL.....


THE WORD "ILLUSION OF FREEWILL" IS redefining what the word "Free-will" means.

It is like a 9 months old baby in the womb is NOT a person, but is just a blob of tissue, or an "ILLUSION OF A PERSON"...

I CAN BE STUPID LIKE YOU, BUT IT DOESNT HELP WHEN THERE'S AUDIENCE PAYING ATTENTION TO LOGIC. OBVIOUSLY THE TRUTH UNVEILS ITSELF.....

AND DOCTOR X, YOU ARE A PSYCHO AND A WEIRDO....YOUR SAYING THERE IS NO PROOF BEHIND THE CLAIM THAT A 9 MONTH OLD BABY IS A PERSON? SCIENCE CAN PROVE THAT ALREADY, THE RODE VS. HADE ARGUMENT IS FULL OF CRAP, OBVIOUSLY THIS WORLD IS GOING TO PAY A HARDCORE CONSEQUENCES AHEAD, MAYBE I AM HERE SENT TO WARN U OF THE COMING CATASTROPHY....I MAY SOUND LIKE A MADMAN, BUT MAYBE I AM, U MAY THINK IM A PSYCHO TOO, BUT I DONT CARE WHATR U THINK OF ME....

YOUR ALL SAYING IT IS UNJUST FOR A MAN WHO DISOBEYS GOD IN HIS80 YRS OF LIFE ON EARTH, THEN THROWN INTO HELL WHERE HIS FATHER SATAN LIVES, HOW IS THAT UNJUST?

Is it because the amount of time he committed doesnt equal the amount of time (endless amount, eternity) given to punished him?

WELL YOU GUYS ARE HALLUCINATING AND NOT LIVING IN A REAL WORLD..In the real world, a person is not being punished ABOUT TIME, its not about time....


When a person raped a woman in 15 minutes, why should he be locked up for 40 years for the 15 minute sex he commited? Thats 20,976,400 minutes!!! For a 15 minute act...IS THAT UNJUST AS WELL? ANSWER ME, SO YOU AGREE ITS NOT ALWAYS ABOUT TIME, BUT THE DEGREE OF FFAULT AM I RIGHT?


Well now, if you agree that it is in the degree of fault that a person should be punished, AND NOT BY THE TIME...SO WHY DO YOU QUESTION THE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT GOD HAVE GIVEN TO THE DEVIL AND HIS FOLLOWERS? YOU SHOULDNT QUESTION THIS IF U AGREE WITH THE ABOVE....


I DONT CARE HOW MANY TIME U SAY "BUT ITS ETERNITY!! ETERNITY, ETERNITY, ETERNITY!!!" YOUR DEFENDING THEM BECAUSE YOU ARE LIKE THEM AND DONT WANT TO CHANGE YOUR PERVERTED WAYS (IF THATS WHAT U ARE) INSTEAD OF RATIONALIZING YOUR ACT WITH PRIDE, WHY NOT HUMBLY ADMIT THAT YOU NEED TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE?

IF YOU SAY THAT OVER AND OVER ""INFINITE FOR A FINITE ACT IS NOT FAIR!!"

THEN I WILL ALSO SAY OVER AND OVER "15 MINUTES OF WRONG COMMITED THEN LOCKED AWAY FOR 20,976,400 minutes!!! THAT IS NOT FAIR!!!!


IF YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN GOOD EXPLANATION OF YOUR DOUBTS, AND STILL REJECT THE TRUTH BECAUSE OF YOUR PRIDE AND BECAUSE IT IS COMFORTABLE TO BE AN ATHEIST, THEN IM SORRY BUT I HAVE TO SAY THIS. YOU DESERVE TO GO TO HELL...........

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Ossai
muscleman
Then god is not all-powerful.

If God created man to be free, why should he stop him from doing what the man wants to do? Should God stop man from going to the mall? Should God stop man from raping a child? Should God stop man from driving a car? He created them to be a man, and that is part of being a man, sex, anger, etc. but just because this gifts are given, they can also be abused. If God stop man from abusing his gifts or cherisshing it, GOD SHOULD HAVE NOT MADE THAT CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL INTO MAN BUT INTO A VEGETABLE INSTEAD INCAPABLE OF RAPING AND MURDERING ANOTHER VEGETABLE...YOU GOT IT PRIMITIVE BRAIN GUY?

Just because God is all-powerfull, it doesnt mean He will do what you want Him to do, you may wish God created you to be a vegetable because yur too stupid to make right decision and is a retard (are you?) but that is just u, not all of us are like you, why not cherish the gift instead of whining like a loser anyways?

Originally posted by Ossai

No freewill, just ignorance. It means that your god is a sick sadistic bastard.


Why because a man raped a child? The man will b punished for it, whether in hell, or in earth. SO WHATS YUR PROBLEM STUPID?

Originally posted by Ossai

So the all-knowing, all-powerful god already knows yet we have the power to change something god already knows. Inherent contradiction.

whatever you do is what God knows already, YOU CANNOT CONTRADICT AN ACT AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT GOD AND YOU DONT KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS STUPID...HOW INCREDIBLY STUPID OF YOU.....

Originally posted by Ossai

And you will have your answer as soon as you have answered the questions posed to you earlier on this thread by myself and others. For example: You claimed to be able to prove god existed, I’m still waiting…

I will start another thread concerning that later..Patience...

Originally posted by Ossai

I never claimed to have infallible foreknowledge. You are the one making the claim that your god posses the ability. Logically infallible foreknowledge and freewill are mutually contradictory. If infallible foreknowledge exists then freewill is, at best, an illusion. If freewill exists then any sort of foreknowledge is fallible.

So far in this thread I have proven your statement wrong, AND ALL OF YOU ARE JUST RAMBLING WITH NO FACTS....

Originally posted by Ossai

Now since you are the one making the claim, and have yet to provide any evidence {your incessant ramblings aren’t evidence, just annoying} you must supply the needed proof of not only your gods existence but also your gods powers.

Osssai

MY STATEMENT IS RAMBLING BECAUSE YOU DONT HAVE COMMON SENSE, STUPID, AND CANT THINK STRAIGHT, AND WHAT, YOUR GONNA BLAIM GOD BECAUSE YOUR AN IDIOT WHO DONT PUT ANY EFFORT INTO CHANGING YOUR WAYS?

[Yahzi]

Musclesdevelopedfromholdingdownthecapskey
to God's view we dont have freewill, to humans view we have freewill
So... you're saying God is wrong?

Or are you saying that free will is merely a matter of perspective? The problem with that is, things that we deride as a "matter of perspective" are also the sorts of things we refer to as "illusions," or "not really real."

If all-knowing God knows we don't have free will, I think we have to conclude that we don't have free will. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much point to being all-knowing, if you can be wrong. Heck, under that definition, I am all knowing! I'm just wrong about most of it.

When a person raped a woman in 15 minutes, why should he be locked up for 40 years for the 15 minute sex he commited?
If the rape were over in 15 minutes, then I might agree with you. But before I could even imagine that an act of rape stops hurting when the rapist stops, I would have to cut out most of my fore-brain with a cheese grater.

I realize that people often make hypothetical arguments that are extreme, but they do so via intelligence. Your pathetic imitation only serves to reveal your astonishing insensitivity and appalling ignorance.

IF YOU SAY THAT OVER AND OVER ""INFINITE FOR A FINITE ACT IS NOT FAIR!!"
I suppose it is simply to large a task for your intellectual abilities to grasp the notion of "infinity." I recognize I have a rather poor understanding of it myself, but at least I know it's longer than 20,976,400 minutes.

THEN IM SORRY BUT I HAVE TO SAY THIS. YOU DESERVE TO GO TO HELL
Oddly, I detect a fair bit of satisfaction in your statement, yet not even a whiff of sorrow. The crime of not recognizing your brilliance seems to justify infinite punishment - but then, it should, since your ego is infinite. I suppose this works for God, too, but I wonder how many infinite egos Heaven can accomodate.

If God created man to be free, why should he stop him from doing what the man wants to do?
If the Constitution grants me the freedom to pursue happiness, why should the police stop me from doing what I want to do? The entire point of the American ideal is freedom, yet, every single time I approach a large public building with a can of gasoline and a bag of marshmellows, those pesky policemen get positively rude.

The man will b punished for it, whether in hell, or in earth. SO WHATS YUR PROBLEM STUPID?
My problem, stupid, is that being punished for it after the fact is inadequate. Imagine if you were being raped by a large, gay, eskimo, and all the while, a policeman stood by idly, watching. You shout at him, "do something, you bastard!" but he simply responds, "As soon as he's done, I'll arrest him, and he will be punished for it." Tell me - do you find his position satisfactory? Answer quickly, because many violent gay eskimos are hanging on your reply.

AND ALL OF YOU ARE JUST RAMBLING WITH NO FACTS....
MY STATEMENT IS RAMBLING BECAUSE
(Offered without comment.)

WHO DONT PUT ANY EFFORT INTO CHANGING YOUR WAYS?
I realize that your churlishness has no limits, but even so, leaping to the conclusion that those who disagree with you are pedophiles and rapists seems worthy of Olympic recognition.


Note: since you are a deeply stupid person, you won't have realized that I am not actually replying to you. I am replying to Dr. X, and attempting to engage him in a battle of witty repartee, with you as the object of derision. Of course, I am not worthy of the good doctor's skills, but vanity makes me think I might amuse him just enough to provoke another outburst of erudite mockery that will send me scurrying to my dictionary - yet again.

As a general comment, I offer that our troll's literary skills seem to be decaying rapidly. The shelf-life of laughing-stocks just isn't what it used to be. Thank gods they at least figured out how to increase production.

[DanishDynamite]

Originally posted by Bjorn
I hereby plead guilty of feeding some people that many of you would rather have left starving.

I also declare that by posting in this thread, you are just as guilty as I am. :p
:) Indeed. Perhaps my "sport for beginners" was a little too harsh. In my defense I will say that the R&P forum used to be my favorite, the place I posted most. For the past half year or so, however, it has been dominated by threads where people play with the Franko troll. In the old days, Franko used to be fairly civil, and while his worldview has always been incoherent, at least it was new and original. It was debunked long ago and is IMO no longer even mildly entertaining.
Funny, TJ an DD, how one (including me) can change moods, one day engaging in a heated debate with X or Y, next day it's nose up and 'we shouldn't bother because then X or Y would go away .... '. :)

Who would you/we discuss with if we all had the same knowledge and drew the same conclusions from that knowledge? http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/fragend/fragend008.gif [/B]As I said, we need deviants. However, I will usually leave it to others to debate religious nuts, eco-fascists and debunked has-beens. I don't have Stimpy's patience and dedication.

Of course, if there is nothing else going on, I can be tempted to make an occasional comment to the weirdos. :)

[DanishDynamite]

Win:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We especially need deviants of Win's caliber and even UCE (in his "civil" version).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks. I have to go, uh, play with my hamsters now.

But first, let me throw a quick comment into the mix. From the perspective of Catholic theology, God is a necessary being who created the world as a free act of divine will. This creates a problem, to wit: Doesn't God's necessity render his choices either necessary or whimsical?

The attentive will see how this problem mirrors the problem of "free will" on the level of human beings.

More later, perhaps ...You're welcome.

[DD tries to think of other ways, aside from flattery, to get Win involved in discussions on a daily basis]

;)

muddleman:BLAH...BLAH...STUPID...BLAH...BLAH...STU PID...BLAH...BLAHYawn....

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Yahzi
Musclesdevelopedfromholdingdownthecapskey

So... you're saying God is wrong?

IM saying your not God and you dont see things the way He does, are you that stupid?

Originally posted by Yahzi

Or are you saying that free will is merely a matter of perspective? The problem with that is, things that we deride as a "matter of perspective" are also the sorts of things we refer to as "illusions," or "not really real."

Whos "We"? Maybe you and your kind, or the retards, but not me.. I see no "illusion" in the choices I make right now. I have not been given the choices to select that I am not aware of, and donot know of, for that will be a deception for that will be an "illusion"..WHATS PRESENTED TO ME IS WHAT I AM AWARE OF, AND IF IM NOT AWARE OF IT, I AM NOT ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACT I DID WHEN I DIDNT KNOW ITS WRONG TO BEGIN WITH....
CONFUSED? I AM SIMPLY SAYING THAT THE WORD "ILLUSION" MEANS "DECEPTION" OR "FALSE PRESENTATION", THEY SEEMED LIKE, BUT THEY ARENT...THATS NOT THE CASE, BECAUSE I DONT KNOW WHAT CHOICES IM GONNA MAKE AHEAD AND WHAT "NOT" TO MAKE, FOR IF I DO KNOW BOTH, AND STILL DO WRONG ALTHOUGH MY MIND, BODY, AND SOUL WANT TO DO RIGHT, THEN THAT WILL MEAN I AM BEING DECIEVED "ILLUSION OF FREEWILL".(DECIEVED, YOPU DONT HAVE FREEWILL, BUT ARE TOLD YOU HAVE FREEWILL. A LIE, DECEPTION, ILLUSION, ETC.).

BUT SO FAR IN FORMING OUR SPIRITUAL LIFE, WE ARE NOT PUPPETS. OUR HEARTS FORMED THE WAY WE "WILLED" IT. IN MY LIFE, I NEVER REMEMBERED AN INVISIBLE ENTITY GRABBING MY HAND, THEN MAKING THAT HAND PUNCHING SOMEONE AND ME NOT WANTING TO DO IT WITH MY MIND, HEART, AND SOUL. LIFE IS NOT AN ILLUSION, LIFE IS A DECISION. NOW OF COURSE IF YOUR ALL-KNOWING, AND YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO DO AHEAD, DONT WANT TO DO WHAT YOU KNOW OF AHEAD, BUT STILL DOES IT, NOW THAT MEANS WE DONT HAVE FREEWILL. AND IF YOU DONT HAVE FREEWILL, BUT IS TOLD YOU HAVE FREEWILL, THEN THAT IS WHAT WE CALL "ILLUSION OF FREEWILL".

ONE MORE TIME....YOUR CONFUSING YOURSELF SO ILL EXPLAIN... IF YOUR A HUMAN BEING AND IS "PREDETERMINED" AND AT THE SAME TIME KNOWS EVERYTHING YOU ARE DESTINED TO DO, AND STILL DOES IT, THEN THAT MEANS U HAVE NO FREEWILL... ITS LIKE A COMPUTER PROGRAM WITH EYES, YOU CAN SEE WHERE YOUR HEADING, AND THERES NO STOPPING YOURSELF FROM DOING WHAT YOUR ABOUT TO DO...AND WHEN YOUR LIKE THIS, AND IS TOLD OVER AND OVER THAT YOU HAVE FREEWILL, THEN MAYBE THATS WHAT YOU CALL "ILLUSION OF FREEWILL".. LOL, YOU KIDS ARE SO-STUPID THAT ITS UNBELIEVABLE....

Originally posted by Yahzi

If all-knowing God knows we don't have free will, I think we have to conclude that we don't have free will. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be much point to being all-knowing, if you can be wrong. Heck, under that definition, I am all knowing! I'm just wrong about most of it.

You guys are loosing it. Here I am trying to explain it to morons, CANT YOU SEE IM TRYING TO SCOOP DOWN TO YUR LEVEL AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR TRYING TO SAY? IM EXPLAINED IT ABOVE AND I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND IT...

AGAIN AND AGAIN I SAY; TO AN ALL-KNOWING GOD, WE DONT HAVE FREEWILL. BUT TO THE HUMAN KIND, SINCE WE ARE NOT ALL-KNOWING, THEN WE HAVE FREEWILL, TO CHOOSE FROM ALL THE KNOWLEDGE IN THE WORLD.......OK? LETS LEAVE IT TO THAT, YOUR SO STUPID THAT YUR CONFUSING YURSELF (SATAN IS THE MASTER OF CONFUSION, FATHER OF LIES, MASTER OF DECEPTION)....

Originally posted by Yahzi

If the rape were over in 15 minutes, then I might agree with you. But before I could even imagine that an act of rape stops hurting when the rapist stops, I would have to cut out most of my fore-brain with a cheese grater.

I realize that people often make hypothetical arguments that are extreme, but they do so via intelligence. Your pathetic imitation only serves to reveal your astonishing insensitivity and appalling ignorance.


I suppose it is simply to large a task for your intellectual abilities to grasp the notion of "infinity." I recognize I have a rather poor understanding of it myself, but at least I know it's longer than 20,976,400 minutes..

Like I was saying, if the topic is about the length of "time". Then lets go in the real world...

What do you think is the punishment for a scientists who gathered biological weapon, then released it in All of America (which took him about an hour), making their skin engorged with desease, falling apart, legs falling apart, yet still alive, over 500 million citizens are affected by this..

Would you say he deserve death penalty? SO NOW YOUR TELLING ME THAT HE DESERVE NEVER AGAIN TO ENJOY LIFE OON EARTH, NEVER AGAIN TO SEE HIS FAMILY, FOR ALL OF ETERNITY, FOR AN HOUR OF CRIME? ONCE AGAIN IF THE TOPIC IS ABOUT LENGTH OF TIME, SO WHAT DO U THINK OF THIS ANALOGY?

Originally posted by Yahzi


If the Constitution grants me the freedom to pursue happiness, why should the police stop me from doing what I want to do? The entire point of the American ideal is freedom, yet, every single time I approach a large public building with a can of gasoline and a bag of marshmellows, those pesky policemen get positively rude.


My problem, stupid, is that being punished for it after the fact is inadequate. Imagine if you were being raped by a large, gay, eskimo, and all the while, a policeman stood by idly, watching. You shout at him, "do something, you bastard!" but he simply responds, "As soon as he's done, I'll arrest him, and he will be punished for it." Tell me - do you find his position satisfactory? Answer quickly, because many violent gay eskimos are hanging on your reply.



I would feel horrible if I was the man being raped, DAMN THAT SUCKS. But you know what, the fact is, God created man to be free, and once again THIS IS NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU FEEL, YOUR NOT THE KING, THIS IS ABOUT FACTS. The fact is if God should stop man from doing what they want to do (raping, giving money, going to mall, etc.) then might as well create him into a vegetable incapable of any of them....

HUMANS ARE CAPABLE OF DOING GOOD, AND AT THE SAME TIME OF DOING EVIL, YOU CHOOSE YOUR DESTINY......

[DanishDynamite]

muddleman:The fact is if God should stop man from doing what they want to do (raping, giving money, going to mall, etc.) then might as well create him into a vegetable incapable of any of them.... Well, in your case He almost succeeded. A human-like form incapable of rational thought.

BTW, your Caps-Lock problem seems to be getting worse. You wouldn't happen to have a sister who lives in Tennessee and claims to be a nurse, would you?

[Watcher]

Originally posted by muscleman
AGAIN AND AGAIN I SAY; TO AN ALL-KNOWING GOD, WE DONT HAVE FREEWILL. BUT TO THE HUMAN KIND, SINCE WE ARE NOT ALL-KNOWING, THEN WE HAVE FREEWILL, TO CHOOSE FROM ALL THE KNOWLEDGE IN THE WORLD.......OK? LETS LEAVE IT TO THAT, YOUR SO STUPID THAT YUR CONFUSING YURSELF (SATAN IS THE MASTER OF CONFUSION, FATHER OF LIES, MASTER OF DECEPTION)....

Lemme show you where I percieve a contradiction.

On the desk in my room, I have a copy of a crime novel. I haven't started reading it yet. Because I have free will, I can choose to read the first chapter sometime today. I can also choose not to read it.

Because God is all knowing, he knows whether I will begin reading the book today. For example, God might know that I will not begin reading the novel today. If so, it is not an option for me to start reading the novel today - because God knows I won't. So I don't really have a choice.

Where's the flaw in this argument?

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Watcher


Lemme show you where I percieve a contradiction.

On the desk in my room, I have a copy of a crime novel. I haven't started reading it yet. Because I have free will, I can choose to read the first chapter sometime today. I can also choose not to read it.

Because God is all knowing, he knows whether I will begin reading the book today. For example, God might know that I will not begin reading the novel today. If so, it is not an option for me to start reading the novel today - because God knows I won't. So I don't really have a choice.

Where's the flaw in this argument?


Your loosing it. Everything u know God knows,if u think of car, God knows of that, if u think of reading the book, then change your mind, then want to read the book again, trying to escape what God think you would do, then God also knows that as well, BUT YOU DONT KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS, YOUR QUESTION IS PRIMITIVE, SOMETHING I ASKED MYSELF WHEN I WAS 6 YRS OLD...AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A BELIEVER OF GOD, I JUST KNOW THAT THINGS CAN BE EXPLAINED, BUT IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE THROUGH ME....BUT IN THIS STAGE OF MY LIFE, IT SEEMED LIKE IT IS FOR NONE OF U GUYS ARE AWARE OF THIS........

You have to realize, not all questions in one perspective, is applied in another perspective, they are different levels..

For instance theres a question..."It appears to be it, but it is not it"...

That question can be applied to a car by view on the outside, it appears to be a honda, but its really a toyota..

But that question cannot be applied if you look at things deeper, lets say computer program, lets say aol platinum. It appears to be an aol, works like an aol, heck you look closer to everty single detail in it, it seemed like aol, it even says its aol, IT EVEN CAME FROM THE AOL COMPANY, but its not aol...

Thats not applicable there..You also applied that "We appear to have a freewill, but we dont", when it is NOT applicable....

THAT IS WHAT YOUR PROBLEM ATHEISTS, YOU ALL HAVE BEEN DECIEVED BY SIMPLE MIND TRICKS AND LIES...NONE OF YOU ARE SKEPTIC IF U ARE DETERMINED THAT THERE IS CONTRADICTION IN THIS ARGUMENT, THATS YOUR BELIEF, YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER...

YOU ASK THE QUESTION "IT APPEARS THAT WE HAVE FREEWILL, BUT WE DONT."

SO IF YOUR IMPLYING WE DONT HAVE FREEWILL, AND YOU REALLY CLAIM TO BE A SKEPTIC. NOW CAN YOU PROVE TO ME THAT WE DONT HAVE FREEWILL? CAN YOU TELL ME EVERY DETAIL OF WHAT IM ABOUT TO DO? NO, YOU CANT PROVE YOUR BELIEF TO ME....


MEANWHILE I AM IMPLYING THAT WE HAVE FREEWILL, AND THAT IS PROVEN, I CAN SIMPLY ASK U QUESTIONS TO PROVE THAT......


"ONCE AGAIN ILL SAY IT...WE MAKE DECISIONS, GOD KNOWS WHAT OUR DECISIONS WILL BE, BUT WE DONT... GOD KNOWS OUR DESTINY, BUT WE DONT... LET US TRY TO BE THE ONE DESTINED TO HEAVEN TODAY, IN HOPE THAT WE ARE THE ONE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND NOT DESTINED TO HELL"...

THOSE WHO REJECT THIS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE NO FAITH IN THEMSELVES, WHO THINKS SO NEGATIVELY OF THEMSELVES, AND MAYBE U NEED TO CHANGE THAT AND SAY TO YURSELF "I CAN CHANGE, AND I WILL CHANGE".........

You guys rather dwell in darkness, than light, In confusion, than in understanding. In chaos, than in purpose... In luck, than in design. In lies, than in truth. In restlesness, than in peace....

[Hazelip]

Originally posted by muscleman
Your loosing it. Everything u know God knows,if u think of car, God knows of that, if u think of reading the book, then change your mind, then want to read the book again, trying to escape what God think you would do, then God also knows that as well,

Hmmmm...so God knows what I know, but only after I know it? Not very omniscient if his knowledge of my mind depends on my knowing it before he does...

[Bjorn]

Muscle,

It seems once again you forgot to answer my questions:


Since he knows already if I will be good or bad, as you write, let's just imagine he knows I will be bad forever. I guess if he wanted to, he could write down the answer, put it in a sealed envelope, lock it in a safe, and then, after I'm dead, he could open the envelope and say: I was right again, as always.

Now let's also imagine I have free will, and can change 'my' mind and become good. If I do so (become good), wasn't God wrong about my future?

Will he say 'oh, that was a surprise'? Is it possible to surprise an omniscient and omnipotent God?A relatively short answer will do. :confused:

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
muddleman: Well, in your case He almost succeeded. A human-like form incapable of rational thought.

BTW, your Caps-Lock problem seems to be getting worse. You wouldn't happen to have a sister who lives in Tennessee and claims to be a nurse, would you? Of course, if there is nothing else going on, I can be tempted to make an occasional comment to the weirdos. Nothing much going on? http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/grinser/grinser005.gif

[Ossai]

muscleman
Billy this is what your saying..."to God's view we dont have freewill, to humans view we have freewill, therefore.............WE DOPNT HAVE FREEWILL BECAUSE WE ARE GOD!!" It doesn’t matter from our view. Let me put it to you this way (paraphrased from Delphi from Darwin forum)
Infallible foreknowledge Person A will do action X – god’s view
Person A has a choice of doing X or not doing X – human’s view
Now if infallible foreknowledge exists then person A must do X otherwise the foreknowledge isn’t infallible.

Now going back to you ant analogy, is the person controlling the ant responsible for the ant’s actions or is the ant responsible ever though the ant can’t do anything outside the control of the person?

Why because a man raped a child? The man will b punished for it, whether in hell, or in earth. once again asking you to lay off the insults. It just illustrates a boorish piggish mind.
Because your god is condoning sin/evil/rape/murder/etc.

So far in this thread I have proven your statement wrong, AND ALL OF YOU ARE JUST RAMBLING WITH NO FACTS.... No you have made baseless claims. You have yet to coherently answer a question and your lack of etiquette is becoming annoying.

I JUST KNOW THAT THINGS CAN BE EXPLAINED, BUT IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE THROUGH ME
Basically your entire philosophy breaks down into a few points
1. If it’s bad it’s because it’s part of god’s plan
2. No one can understand god’s plan
3. If I don’t know or can’t understand it, then god did it
4. When I die I get to laugh at everyone that didn’t understand god’s plan
5. I’m better than everyone because I understand god’s plan

At least I’m starting to understand you.

MEANWHILE I AM IMPLYING THAT WE HAVE FREEWILL, AND THAT IS PROVEN, I CAN SIMPLY ASK U QUESTIONS TO PROVE THAT...... Ok, prove that you have freewill.

"ONCE AGAIN ILL SAY IT...WE MAKE DECISIONS, GOD KNOWS WHAT OUR DECISIONS WILL BE, BUT WE DONT... GOD KNOWS OUR DESTINY, BUT WE DONT... LET US TRY TO BE THE ONE DESTINED TO HEAVEN TODAY, IN HOPE THAT WE ARE THE ONE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND NOT DESTINED TO HELL"
Do you even bother reading what you post. How can we be destined to hell and still change? Isn’t god the one that create our destiny? If god created our destiny how can we go against it?

Ossai

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Ossai
muscleman
It doesn’t matter from our view. Let me put it to you this way (paraphrased from Delphi from Darwin forum)
Infallible foreknowledge Person A will do action X – god’s view
Person A has a choice of doing X or not doing X – human’s view
Now if infallible foreknowledge exists then person A must do X otherwise the foreknowledge isn’t infallible.

Your going nutz. We cant have the view of God, and we certainly dont have that option, to be God or not, we dont have the view of God, because were not God. You can only think of yourself as God and decieve yurself as yur doing now, but you cant be God. Got it?

We only know that God's view is different from our view, and things we know about God, are things revealed to us, BUT WE COMPLETELY DONT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOW BECAUSE WE ARE NOT ALL KNOWING, WE ARE NOT OMNISCIENT, AND WERE NOT GOD, YOU MIGHT THINK YOU ARE, BUT THAT IS ABOUT AS FAR AS U CAN GO...

Originally posted by Ossai

Now going back to you ant analogy, is the person controlling the ant responsible for the ant’s actions or is the ant responsible ever though the ant can’t do anything outside the control of the person?

Your so stupid. The humans, and ant was just an example. Im not saying we really created the ant, we may not even know what the ant really knows. But I was using that analogy what "IF" we did create the ant, and know everything the ant knows. The ant lives as if it has decisions, making choices given to him/her. But to us who created the ant, the ant have no freewill because we simply programmed the knowledge within the mind of the ant...

LOL, O MY GOD...EVEN MY HIGH SCHOOL NEIGHBOR CAN UNDERSTAND THIS. HOW OLD ARE YOU?

Originally posted by Ossai

once again asking you to lay off the insults. It just illustrates a boorish piggish mind.
Because your god is condoning sin/evil/rape/murder/etc.

Once again yur taking things out of context, you mean to say "Because your god is condoning love/sin/good/evil/chastity/rape/life/murder/etc. and we choose our destiny." THATS WHAT YOU MEAN...

God dint just put a gun in front of you, he also put a gun destroyer, a pillow, a banana, etc. and if u pick up the gun and shot and killed somebody, thats your choice...

note; I CANT LAY OFF THE INSULTS BCUZ KIDS CAN UNDERSTAND THIS COMMON SENSE, YOUR INCREDIBLY UNBELIEVABLY IMMEASURABLY STUPID...(MY OPINION)...

Originally posted by Ossai

No you have made baseless claims. You have yet to coherently answer a question and your lack of etiquette is becoming annoying.


Basically your entire philosophy breaks down into a few points
1. If it’s bad it’s because it’s part of god’s plan
2. No one can understand god’s plan
3. If I don’t know or can’t understand it, then god did it
4. When I die I get to laugh at everyone that didn’t understand god’s plan
5. I’m better than everyone because I understand god’s plan

At least I’m starting to understand you.

your a psycho....Your hearing voices in your head skitzo..Who told you that? I didnt....

Originally posted by Ossai

Ok, prove that you have freewill.

I chose to respond to your immature post. Instead of workingout right now...

Originally posted by Ossai

Do you even bother reading what you post. How can we be destined to hell and still change? Isn’t god the one that create our destiny? If god created our destiny how can we go against it?

Ossai

YOUR A MORON, NOONE KNOWS WHERE IM DESTINED TO, OR WHERE YOU ARE DESTINED TO..STUPID STUPID STUPID GUY.. YOU CANT CHANGE A DESTINY IF U DONT KNOW THE DESTINY MORON...I AINT RESPONDING TO YOU AGAIN IF YUR GONNA BRING THIS UP AGAIN MORON.......

[muscleman]

Bjorn, three strikes and yur out. I already responded to you three times FOR THE SAME QUESTION, if u still didnt get it, I suggest u read again what I typed and analyze it, instead of posting it again...

"They have eyes but cant see, have ears but cant hear"..- Jesus...

[Hazelip]

Muscleman, would you care to answer my question or not?

[Doctor X]

It appears our Poor Fool has stumbled.

Your (sic) going nutz. We cant (sic) have the view of God, and we certainly dont (sic) have that option, to be God or not, we dont (sic) have the view of God, because were not God.

Aside from the pathetic tantrum, I pity the English teacher forced to diagram this verbal diarrhea. The now Cowardly Fool [Argumentum ad hominem.--Ed.] No, all other titles he hast given away. If he had honor and courage he would answer the questions rather than behave less civil that a particularly lice infested rodent. [Carry on.--Ed.]

Right, the Cowardly Fool claims SCIENCE [Cue Cymbal Crash--Ed.] supports the existence of Big Daddy.

We await this evidence.

I have humbly offered the logical conclusion based on the existence of severe unjustified suffering--no, not a Celine Dion concert--and we wait for him to disprove it. Otherwise no Big Daddy exists or if he does he does not seem very worthy of regard let alone worship.

Incidentally:

BUT WE COMPLETELY DONT (SIC) KNOW WHAT GOD KNOW (SIC) BECAUSE WE ARE NOT ALL KNOWING, WE ARE NOT OMNISCIENT, AND WERE (SIC) NOT GOD, rant . . . howl . . . rant . . . howl . . . whine.

Excellent! The concession that Big Daddy must be omniscient leads right to my five possible conslusions!

Waiting. . . .

Waiting. . . .

YOU MIGHT THINK YOU ARE, BUT THAT IS ABOUT AS FAR AS U CAN GO...

Your so stupid. The humans, and ant was just an example.

The stupid example offered by the Cowardly Fool

LOL, O MY GOD...EVEN MY HIGH SCHOOL NEIGHBOR CAN UNDERSTAND THIS. HOW OLD ARE YOU?

Perchance the Cowardly Fool rides the "short bus" to high school? Must I identify the fallacy.

Methinks the sage commentary of General Sir Cecil Hogmany Melchet applies quite well to the production of this Cowardly Fool:

"If by his works ye may know him, you are a pile of excrement!"

--J.D.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by muscleman
Bjorn, three strikes and yur out. I already responded to you three times FOR THE SAME QUESTION, if u still didnt get it, I suggest u read again what I typed and analyze it, instead of posting it again...

"They have eyes but cant see, have ears but cant hear"..- Jesus... :D :D :D

As usual, such answers translate into "I have no idea what to say or how to defend my position".

Since he knows already if I will be good or bad, as you write, let's just imagine he knows I will be bad forever. I guess if he wanted to, he could write down the answer, put it in a sealed envelope, lock it in a safe, and then, after I'm dead, he could open the envelope and say: I was right again, as always.

Now let's also imagine I have free will, and can change 'my' mind and become good. If I do so (become good), wasn't God wrong about my future?If he knew I was going to change my mind he would write "Good", but then what if I used my free will and decided to stay "Bad"? Logics can be so irritating!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Keep up the good work, muscle - you're doing a great job!

[muscleman]

Originally posted by Hazelip


Hmmmm...so God knows what I know, but only after I know it? Not very omniscient if his knowledge of my mind depends on my knowing it before he does...

"I know you before you came to be".... The bible did state that before you existed, God knows you already, where you are heading to, and what you are to do in detail Just as Jesus knew that Peter will reject Him 3 times, then cock crows....


It is like when a computer programmer decided to design a program, before he programs it on a computer (or publicize it.), he first thinks how the program will work and what it should do...


Just as before you were born, before you can think, and before you can talk, God knows already what your going to think, what your going to say, and what your destiny would be..

But dont be a moron like these idiots here, repitiously telling me that they are God, when they are not......

[muscleman]

And Doctor X, why did they release you out of the Mental Hospital? Am I the only one who notice that you belong there?