It's not for the Oil, but Looting of Priceless Antiquities is ok.

[a_unique_person]

I can't believe this. Iraq was the cradle of civilisation. It held some of the rarest and most treasured artifacts, that go back to the dawn of civilisation and written human histor.

The museum has been looted, and the US did not raise a finger to stop it. Countless objects have been smashed. Many will be melted down, or sold into private collections, never to be seen again.

To see even pictures of these objects gives me a sense of awe and wonder at the history of our species.

Yet, the one building that is guarded is, guess what?

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/13/1050172475704.html



And Baghdadis are acutely aware that the Marines threw a cordon around only one public building when they pulled into town - the high-rise headquarters of the Oil Ministry.

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld brushes it all off. "Yes, it's untidy; but freedom is untidy," was his flip response to the mayhem.

He needs to think again, because how the Iraqis read the conduct of the US forces in these early days will inform their acceptance of the American presence her for years to come. "The Americans have disappointed us all. This country won't be operational for at least a year or two," said Abbas Reta, 51, an engineer and father of five, who was among hundreds of Iraqi professionals who volunteered yesterday to help restore services.

"I've seen nothing new since Saddam's fall. All that we have seen is looting. The Americans are responsible. One round from their guns and all the looting would have stopped."

Nezar Ahmed, an electrical engineer, spoke for many when he said: "We've been wanting to kill Saddam Hussein for 20 years, but we couldn't. So we are grateful to the Americans, but they are letting thieves take everything from the Iraqi people. It is their responsibility to maintain security, but they let the thieves do whatever they want."

And as the tracks of another passing tank screeched on the bitumen while its crew turned a blind eye to the looting, Fouad Abdullah Ahmed, 49, blurted: "The army of America is like Genghis Khan. America is not good, and Saddam is not good. My people refused Saddam, and they will refuse the Americans."

And in the crowd that gathered to protest near the Palestine Hotel, there was an ominous warning for Mr Rumsfeld from the mouth of Raad Bahman Qasim, 30: "If this continues in Baghdad, we'll kill any American or British soldier."

[Skeptic]

The museum has been looted, and the US did not raise a finger to stop it.

That's funny. You're outraged at the looting of a museum, but when (in another thread) someone showed that Saddam had six hundred Kuwaities in jail for twelve years, you shrugged it off as inconsequentional, saying that "this doesn't justify" US intervention.

If it was up to you, the US would not have invaded; these Kuwaities would still be tortured in an underground prison, but hey, at least the antique cuniforms would be safe (at least until Saddam decides to use them as ashtrays in one of his myriad palaces).

You would NOT let the lives of a few hundred insignificant people interfere with your "awe and respect for humanity", now would you, AUP?

You love humanity. It's people you don't give a damn about.

P.S.

How much do I win, if I bet you didn't even know this museum existed, let alone what it contained...

...before you saw the news item about its looting and decided that throwing a temper tantrum about it would be a cool way to sling mud at the US?

[headscratcher4]

AUP: As I've stated many times, I am not a fan of this policy.

However, the looting is terrible and a horrible loss to Iraq. It is also well known that Saddam and the Baath party have been systematically looting these museums for years...selling off priceless Iraqi antiquities on the international market for ready cash. Bad as the current situation is now...and it is indeed bad and a failure of US forces...where were the cries of outrage of the international community over the leak of similar antiquities into the European and US art markets over the last 12 years to enrich Saddam and his cronies?

I don't excuse any of it, nor do I downplay your understandable outrage...I believe you've been horrified by Saddam all along and have not bought the Bush line as a solution. I guess my only frustration, and not with you per se, but others who are crying in the Arab world and other parts of the globe over the lawlessness on the streets of Bahgdad is where was the law under Saddam? Is this lawlessness so much worse than the disapearing opponents, the stealing of the nation's oil wealth to enrich Saddam and his family? The extra-judicial murders, the graft and corruption, the murders? I find it odd...as one who does not believe that the US should have fought this war...that there was little said about the lawless nature of the previous state simply because it pretended to be an ordered society.

In short, Iraq has been lawless for years...the US may add or detract from that situation (hopefully, improve it, but time will tell), but one can't help but think there are more than a few crocidile tears being shed about lawlessness today that weren't there two months ago...

Just and observation....

[a_unique_person]

Thanks HS, I was not too happy about the looting, if it could not be helped in the confusion. However, it appears that the Ministry of Oil was guarded like Fort Knox at the same time. It really does show the priorities at work here, and the lack of consideration for other concerns.

The article also mentions that the looting stopped when some soldiers did turn up, but then they disappeared again. Such crime, as has been observed by Iraqis themselves, does not do them or anyone else any good.

[Mel]

Is it too simplistic to say that under Saddam's rule horrible things also happened?

I'm not saying that ALL of this looting could have been prevented but it sure doesn't sound totally unreasonable to think that a LOT of this might be better controlled.

I haven't followed the news today, so I'll just ask off the top of my head....

I doubt very highly, Bush wants to involve either the UN or any country not involved in the 'coalition of the willing' at this point in time.....

Has there been ANY plan for law & order put in place other than a nightly curfew?

Have we asked the Muslim countries in the region to appeal directly to the Iraqis to let the coalition finish this job as soon as possible with as much cooperation as they can provide, so the 'infidels' can go home?

Have we considered or are we using the MPs?

Rummy might be right, but it sure sounds crass and uncaring. Not at all the impression we want to make.

[Doubt]

HS,

Nice response to AUP.

You do realize that if the troops had guarded the museum and not the oil ministry that the arm chair critics would have claimed the US allowed the ministry to be looted in order to make it impossible for the Iraqi people to control their own resources. Those who choose to see only the worst can always find it if they look hard enough.

Also if the US had guarded the museum, complaints about guarding useless material things instead of protecting lives would have been in order.

If the US had guarded the hospitals, then we would have heard that the US only did that so our military hospital units would not be overburdened treating Iraqi citizens.

The failure to stop the looters is most likely a result of how the battle happened. The forces used to beat the Iraqi military are not able to stop the general public from looting unless they shoot the looters while still trying to fight what is left of the war. An A-10 warthog is not much of a guard.

Could the military have handled it better? Yes. But hindsight is always 20-20. The issue now is how long will it take to restore order. How many days did the 1967 Detroit riot last? The army was called in to help with that issue. Results were not instantaneous and cannot be expected to be any faster now.

[corplinx]

At least the Iraq looters had better taste than the LA ones who stole consumer electronics.

[NoZed Avenger]

Stop the looters?

You mean "shoot civilians," right? That's what it would be when complaining about the decision to "send occupation forces and use them like gun-happy sheriffs."

You want US troops doing that?

The incompetent, gun-toting, irresponsible, can't-tell-friend-from-foe soldiers that you advise the British forces to stay away from because they're all trigger happy, moronic cowboys??

Yet now you demand that they act as police over a civilian population?

----

Anyone want to guess what outraged comments would be associated with [i][b]that[B][I] decision from the US?


NA

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Doubt
HS,

Nice response to AUP.

You do realize that if the troops had guarded the museum and not the oil ministry that the arm chair critics would have claimed the US allowed the ministry to be looted in order to make it impossible for the Iraqi people to control their own resources. Those who choose to see only the worst can always find it if they look hard enough.

Also if the US had guarded the museum, complaints about guarding useless material things instead of protecting lives would have been in order.

If the US had guarded the hospitals, then we would have heard that the US only did that so our military hospital units would not be overburdened treating Iraqi citizens.

The failure to stop the looters is most likely a result of how the battle happened. The forces used to beat the Iraqi military are not able to stop the general public from looting unless they shoot the looters while still trying to fight what is left of the war. An A-10 warthog is not much of a guard.

Could the military have handled it better? Yes. But hindsight is always 20-20. The issue now is how long will it take to restore order. How many days did the 1967 Detroit riot last? The army was called in to help with that issue. Results were not instantaneous and cannot be expected to be any faster now.

It is notable that out of all the buildings to be guarded, it was the Oil one. And this war, as we have been told many times, is not about oil, it is about the Iraqi people. Except that the troops cannot be spared for guarding the hospitals that treat the people, because they are busy guarding the Oil Ministry. But it is about the people. The ones in the hospitals with their arms and legs missing.

However, as the article states, one troop carrier was enough to save the museum.

[coalesce]

I, like everyone else, was sickened by the looting, because all they're doing is hurting themselves. Stealing hospital beds? Generators? Ceiling fans? What does that accomplish, besides making for tragically comic pictures, and bad PR for the Iraqi people and the coalition troops.

It's unfortunate and terribly short-sighted of the coalition hierarchy not to have a plan in place to immediately clamp down on that type of activity. They had to have known that the civil unrest that's going on now would occur. Nature abhors a vacuum, and right now, there's a big one. I realize that the coalition's job was not to be a police force, but I think some manpower should've been allocated to do some sort of policing.

I truly hope that a Marshall Plan is put together quickly for the region, not only for the obvious humanitarian reason, but also for good western PR in the region, something woefully lacking there for too long.

Michael

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
The museum has been looted, and the US did not raise a finger to stop it.

That's funny. You're outraged at the looting of a museum, but when (in another thread) someone showed that Saddam had six hundred Kuwaities in jail for twelve years, you shrugged it off as inconsequentional, saying that "this doesn't justify" US intervention.



I have not shrugged off any suffering by the Iraqi people. Strawman, after strawman.

The issue, as is becoming increasingly clear, especially when they could guard the oil ministry, is that the Iraqi people are of no consequence.

As for the antiquities, one troop carrier was all that was need to calm the crowd.

And they are priceless. You and I will die one day, but these relics from 4,000 and 5,000 years ago should outlast us all.



If it was up to you, the US would not have invaded; these Kuwaities would still be tortured in an underground prison, but hey, at least the antique cuniforms would be safe (at least until Saddam decides to use them as ashtrays in one of his myriad palaces).



I have already said that the idea of a world that is more civilised and peaceful is one that appeals to me greatly. I do not believe that the means the US is using will be productive in the long run, nor do I believe that is the real interest of the US. It could have done something about Unita years ago, which is one of it's creations. Just as much suffering has been caused by Unita as Saddam has ever caused. Yet on other issues such as this, all I hear are crickets chirping.



You would NOT let the lives of a few hundred insignificant people interfere with your "awe and respect for humanity", now would you, AUP?

You love humanity. It's people you don't give a damn about.

P.S.

How much do I win, if I bet you didn't even know this museum existed, let alone what it contained...

...before you saw the news item about its looting and decided that throwing a temper tantrum about it would be a cool way to sling mud at the US?

I have read a lot of books about the ancient civilisations, and seen pictures of the artifacts they contained in places such as this museum. They are pieces of work that tell us about our history and struggles, and the talent and intelligence of people from thousands of years ago. People just like us, who, before our time when we have so much to learn from, were creating art and learning for the very first time. I will die, and so will you. The idea that these works from others who have gone before us is gone for ever, for want of a few men to be spared, is terrible.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
Stop the looters?

You mean "shoot civilians," right? That's what it would be when complaining about the decision to "send occupation forces and use them like gun-happy sheriffs."



It was enough to have the troops turn up to stop the looting. Then they left again.

[ssibal]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


It is notable that out of all the buildings to be guarded, it was the Oil one. And this war, as we have been told many times, is not about oil, it is about the Iraqi people. Except that the troops cannot be spared for guarding the hospitals that treat the people, because they are busy guarding the Oil Ministry. But it is about the people. The ones in the hospitals with their arms and legs missing.

However, as the article states, one troop carrier was enough to save the museum.

Seeing as how oil will benefit the Iraqi people far more than the museum, it makes perfect sense to guard it instead of the museum. Now I am not saying they should not have guarded the museum but there are only a limited ammount of troops and many locations of various importance. It is too bad that those museum items were looted but in the long run, they would not have benefited the country as much as the oil.

[Checkmite]

I knew about the Baghdad Museum before it was looted.

The Baghdad Museum was home to, among other things, the last known specimen of a late Roman-era "battery" of sorts. The thing produced about one volt of electricity, and was used for electroplating - bonding extremely thin pieces of silver to another metal, typically bronze. The invention of this battery was a tribute to the ingenuity of the people who used it, and a technological wonder (at the time it was used).

Since it was not made of anything valuable, it was probably knocked aside and smashed in someone's attempt to get at something more worthwhile. Whatever the case, it is likely gone.

Forever.

[corplinx]

My guess is we expected looting of government offices and the stores of sympathizers.

I don't think any of our arab advisory sources predicted looting of a hospital or a museum.

[Cleopatra]

:( :( :(


Sunday April 13, 2003
The Observer

The world's first written words may have been lost forever.

After
surviving for more than 5,000 years, distinctive clay tablets that are
recognised as the root of all mankind's written communication have
either been destroyed or stolen in yesterday's looting of the Iraqi
national museum.

The tablets, from the royal tombs at Ur, were among 170,000 items taken
from Baghdad's National Museum of Antiquities. Experts claimed that the
stolen goods were worth billions of pounds. Others maintained that they
were 'priceless'.

In addition to the tablets containing cuneiform writing - which utilises
symbols chipped into the clay using wedge-shaped tools - thieves also
took some of the world's earliest examples of mathematics. These include
calculations that have directly led to the modern system of timekeeping
using hours, minutes and seconds based on the number six.

'This is a tremendous loss to world literature and knowledge, it's truly
a world heritage loss,' said Dominique Collon of the Ancient Near East
Department of the British Museum.

A massive collection of 5,000-year-old 'highly breakable' sculptures
from ancient Sumeria and Assyria have also been stolen from the world's
seventh largest museum.

[subgenius]

The fact that looting (and senseless destruction) of priceless artifacts was allowed to happen shows a mindset and priorities. We (notice my lack of blaming the oil men in the white house?)screwed up and its better to admit it and learn, than to live in denial.

[Jedi Knight]

It must have had something to do with the Mars/Earth connection. I keep telling people what the deal is but guys like The Fool simply won't believe it lol.

JK

[peptoabysmal]

So, was this planned for profit or to incite the "Arab world" and provide propaganda for anti-American sentiment?

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030413_1348.html

[QUOTE]
At Iraq's national museum, Donny George, director of research and discoveries for the state board of antiquities, crunched through the broken glass of shattered display cases.

Until looters hit, the cases had held the artifacts of Ur and all civilizations that had made the Tigris and Euphrates Valley their home.

The plunder was planned so well in advance that international journalists were told a day ahead of the time. George suspects at least some of the looters were commissioned to go after specific items.[/QOUTE]

[Cleopatra]

Although at the beginning I was debating, in other forums, that this War was about Oil I start reconsidering.

No,it was not about Oil, it was about imposing OUR LIFESTYLE to the "inferior" Easterns.

There is no excuse for what happened.

I have dozens of examples from History, about great leaders ( Julius Caesar first in row) whose first care was the protection of the shrines and monuments of the places they conquered

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Although at the beginning I was debating, in other forums, that this War was about Oil I start reconsidering.

No,it was not about Oil, it was about imposing OUR LIFESTYLE to the "inferior" Easterns.

There is no excuse for what happened.

I have dozens of examples from History, about great leaders ( Julius Caesar first in row) whose first care was the protection of the shrines and monuments of the places they conquered
Another problem with not knowing or remembering history. Thanks for the lesson.

[Cleopatra]

Oh no, before starting discussing with americans in forums, I had this stupid idea that Americans don't know History.

They do know History very well, they do know many things but sometimes they choose to turn their backs and this is what saddens me.

I expect more of the offspings of those who practically built the modern world and democracy, that's all.

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
I expect more of the offspings of those who practically built the modern world and democracy, that's all.
Never underestimate the power of organizational stupidity.

bureaucrat 1: "I thought you were taking care of that."
bureaucrat 2: "No, I think that's your department... isn't it?"

[jimmygun]

I worked with a woman who had been taken from her village in Russia for slave labour in Germany. She spent three and a half years as a slave to a German businessman (in a restaurant, where she was able to steal enough food to stay alive). She suffered every indignity and cruelty at the hands of her slave owners until the American troops captured the town and liberated countless thousands of slaves.

The people were put up in a tent city immediately and were told by the Americans that there would be a three day grace, where they could extract any revenge on their captors. At the end of the grace period, martial law would be enforced. Perhaps the troops in Bagdad figure these people have the right to be pissed. They have been suffering for almost thirty years. Should they be shot for grabbing a chair from one of the palaces?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by jimygun
I worked with a woman who had been taken from her village in Russia for slave labour in Germany. She spent three and a half years as a slave to a German businessman (in a restaurant, where she was able to steal enough food to stay alive). She suffered every indignity and cruelty at the hands of her slave owners until the American troops captured the town and liberated countless thousands of slaves.

The people were put up in a tent city immediately and were told by the Americans that there would be a three day grace, where they could extract any revenge on their captors. At the end of the grace period, martial law would be enforced. Perhaps the troops in Bagdad figure these people have the right to be pissed. They have been suffering for almost thirty years. Should they be shot for grabbing a chair from one of the palaces?

I don't think the spoils from Saddams palaces are the issue. Antiquities that are up to 5,000 years old and that can never be replaced are. Taking it out on Saddam and his cronies is one thing, the first examples of human civilisation are another.

[Denise]

I'm very upset about the museum, but Geez! They are just things. They have been studied and cataloged. They are not people. Am I more upset that a tablet has been taken, or someone's son has been taken? I choose the son. Yes, it's not a good thing, but let's get our priorities straight here.

[Alaric]

You know, im shocked by this as well. The fertile crescent IS where mankinds civilization began. To see this stuff stolen is a terrible thing. This is our cradle-where we first began to understand civilization(ironic the way Iraq turned out eh?)
I am willing to bet the attack was planned though. If these people were so hard done by and starving-one doesnt think in terms of long term investment. One thinks of food and television....instant gratification-not a codex written by Hammurabi on the foundations of law. Im of the opinion that this was a little more planned by very very rich people. Im sure a lot of folks just joined in (humans and cattle..very similar except one tastes better than the other).
I wont be suprised that in the decades that follow, many of these items will remarkably be found in excellent condition.


As for shooting civilians-most likely very few (except for hard core opportunists) would need to have been dealt with to stop the looting. Remember policing works partially through a show of force-not force itself. Problem is, the city wasnt secure.
Americans patrolling would just have been shot-not what im looking for. I just hope that they have real principals-stop rapes or brutality occuring on a large scale.

On another note....remember the Talibans joyeous respect for our past? YAY FOR RELIGIOUS NUTBARS

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


It is notable that out of all the buildings to be guarded, it was the Oil one.

How much do the Iraqi people stand to make from oil revenues?
How much can they look forward to tourism revenues for their museums?

Do the math, man. History is all well and good, but we're there to secure their future, not their past. Besides, so much of it has been plundered by Hussein & company that I'm sure you could find a fair chunk of the museums' inventories on Ebay.

[Tmy]

Those antiques belong in their rightful place..............a London museum.

[iain]

Originally posted by jimygun
the right to be pissed. They have been suffering for almost thirty years. Should they be shot for grabbing a chair from one of the palaces? No, but that's not what this thread is about.

Museums, hospitals etc. are not palaces and priceless antiquities are not the same as Saddam's chairs.

[Mercutio]

quote:"How much do the Iraqi people stand to make from oil revenues?
How much can they look forward to tourism revenues for their museums?

Do the math, man. History is all well and good, but we're there to secure their future, not their past. Besides,
so much of it has been plundered by Hussein & company that I'm sure you could find a fair chunk of the
museums' inventories on Ebay."


So the oil is worth more, and the decision was right. If the artifacts only had some practical use...just listening to the news this morning, about the Arab neighbors' take on this. It is being taken as a slap on the face to the Muslim world--the occupying forces care about the oil, whereas the real soul of the culture was in the museum. I fear that the real cost of looting the museum could be measured in suicide bombers. It would have been quite a P.R. coup to guard the museum and demonstrate appreciation for the culture we are supposed to be liberating. Without that demonstration of appreciation, it is much easier for neighbors to make the case that we are "occupying" rather than liberating. Right or wrong, the perception is there, and allowing the looting of the museum heightened it.

[iain]

Originally posted by Tmy
Those antiques belong in their rightful place..............a London museum. :D :D :D

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Alaric
[B]You know, im shocked by this as well. The fertile crescent IS where mankinds civilization began. To see this stuff stolen is a terrible thing. This is our cradle-where we first began to understand civilization(ironic the way Iraq turned out eh?)


Well,

With all due respect,...I'd be more inclined to nominate the Agora in Athens as the proper "birthplace" of rational thought and civilization.

Also, has no one noticed how the regime sought to protect it's military equipment by locating the stuff in or near ancient ruins or archeological sites?

You folks aren't looking at this properly...this was war, and although when care can be taken to preserve important cultural sites it should...sometimes it just can't. Case in point, the Monte Cassino monastary in Italy. During WWII the Nazis occupied the abbey and could not be dislodged...in the end the ancient Abbey was leveled by Marauder bombers. All that history up in smoke. Regretable...but such is the nature of war.

All throughout history war has come with a high price, not just in lives but also in infrastructure, including museums and historic structures. It's been more than 50 years since the end of WWII and still there are pieces of great art looted from western europe turning up from time to time in auctions etc....still more lost art may be destroyed and lost forever. But of course WWII involved larger issues than the material things stored in our culture's attic. This is no different in Iraq. The loss of these things are tragic..but in the end they are still just things.

-zilla

[mbp]

Originally posted by rikzilla

You folks aren't looking at this properly...this was war, and although when care can be taken to preserve important cultural sites it should...sometimes it just can't. Case in point, the Monte Cassino monastary in Italy. During WWII the Nazis occupied the abbey and could not be dislodged...in the end the ancient Abbey was leveled by Marauder bombers. All that history up in smoke. Regretable...but such is the nature of war.

I think I get your point and I agree with it to some extent.
Monte Cassino is a bad example, however. The Germans didn't occupy it, but the allies thought they did and bombed it anyway. More info here (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWmonte.htm) and here (http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/Fallshirmjager/cassino.htm). This destruction could and should have been avoided, but under the circumstances it is perhaps understandable why things happened the way they did.

The looting of the National Museum in Baghdad is a different case altogether. It would have been very easy for the coalition to protect it, if only they had made it a priority from the outset. A handful of troops and a tank would probably have been enough. That this wasn't done must, imho, be seen as a serious blunder.

[richardm]

Oil Ministry, eh?

Hmm..

Oil Ministry. Is that the same as the Oil Ministry Buildings used by Iraq's Atomic programme? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/maps/baghdad/front.htm)

Could one of the reasons it was protected by that the Coalition are expecting to find useful evidence for WMDs, without which they'll be called all sorts of names?

[Clancie]

It would have been very easy for the coalition to protect it, if only they had made it a priority from the outset. A handful of troops and a tank would probably have been enough. That this wasn't done must, imho, be seen as a serious blunder.
Easy to do, indeed. But not doing so is worse than a blunder, in my opinion. It's tantamount to a crime.

I just saw the emptied museum on CNN. Nothing is left.

Its especially disturbing when you think that archaeologists from around the world even met with the Bush Administration before the war and were promised that the Iraqi museums would be protected.

It would have been so easy to do, too, as you say, at least in a few key sites. Perhaps, rather than talking about cultural treasures, the archaeologists would have been taken more seriously if they had argued that saving the Baghdad Museums would be good "public relations", since PR is something that this administration does value highly--unlike culture, art, or history.

I guess promises to the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld oil company pals just meant so much more. I seriously wonder if any of those three men could locate "Mesopotamia" or Babylon on a map.

But I'm sure they all know where the major oil fields are.

[Lemastre]

I assume the U.S. would like people to believe that its interest in the middle east amounts to more than just gaining control of middle-eastern oil and other resources. Letting the Baghdad museum be looted while the oil ministry is protected doesn't help much in reaching that goal. Whether or not oil is more important to Iraqis than artifacts is not the issue, since once the artifacts are destroyed or stolen, they are gone for good, whereas destroying an oil ministry does not destroy any Iraqi oil. The ministry could be rebuilt, and I'm sure Bechtel Corp. would love to have the contract.

[renata]

It is a horrible event. Iraqis are destroying their own history for a quick gain- I am sure these artifacts will start appearing in black markets soon.

Ideally, US should have been able to anticipate this and stop the looting. However, perhaps someone can answer these questions

How many US troops are in Baghdad?
How many Iraqis are in Baghdad?
What percentage of Baghdad is secure? ( there are still daily firefights)
How many hospitals are in Baghdad?
How many sensitive infrastructure sites (oil ministry, power plants, water purification plants, etc) are in Baghdad?
Given the limited resources and the continuing combat in areas of Baghdad, which important sites would you protect and in what order?

[Marquis de Carabas]

It is interesting to note that no-one seems to be outraged that the Iraqi people are destroying these artifacts, but that the American forces aren't stopping them.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by renata
It is a horrible event. Iraqis are destroying their own history for a quick gain- I am sure these artifacts will start appearing in black markets soon.


Renata, the stolen items are priceless. Only Japanese or Americans can buy them. Why?

According to an agreement signed by UNESCO 5 years ago, all the countries have agreed not to allow trade of antiquities that have been stolen from Museums.

All the countries? Nope! Only two denied to sign the agreement Japan and USA.

So, everything that it's stolen by Museums goes there.

I read though and I am terribly happy now that Interpol declared those items missing so trading them even in USA or Japan is illegal.

The USA Government also promised to provide Interpol with every possible assistance.

[mbp]

Originally posted by renata
Given the limited resources and the continuing combat in areas of Baghdad, which important sites would you protect and in what order?
I would certainly put the National Museum higher on that list than for example the hotel containing most of the western press which WAS (is?) begin protected. Or perhaps the guys pulling down statues could have been sent to the museum instead.

Of couse they couldn't protect every single valuable thing in Baghdad, but it seems obvious (to me) that this museum should have been given a very high priority. It must have been an oversight. Perhaps they just never thought that anything like this could happen.

[Clancie]

Renata,

The effort of your post seems to be to put the burden on Iraqis. Only a few hundred (out of a 5 million population in Baghdad alone) were involved in looting. It's hardly the fault of "Iraqis".

How many US troops are in Baghdad?

Are you saying there weren't enough troops standing around to spare ten or so and a tank to at least secure the Baghdad Museum? If we'd made an effort that was overwhelmed by looters, it would be quite different than standing by with complete indifference while things were destroyed (by a small minority of the population).

How do you propose the people who don't believe in looting go about stopping it? Do you think that after three weeks of bombing, they're going to take guns to the street and threaten looters with shooting them? Would you arm yourself, knowing the U.S. troops might think you were firing at them? Would you shoot at looters to risk your life (maybe accidentally shooting someone) to try to stop people taking things from a museum?

Or would you feel your life would be in danger and that people who just spent weeks bombing and conquering your country--you know, the ones who just brought their tanks and soldiers in to occupy the capital city--are the ones in charge and not to be trifled with?

What percentage of Baghdad is secure?

Again, this is your excuse for the Bush policy of letting looters destroy what they wanted. Bush, Franks, etc. did not say that they wanted to save the museums, but unfortunately had no troops to spare. On the contrary, the official reaction has been total indifference. Rumsfeld's quotes say it all.

How many hospitals are in Baghdad?

Excuses again.. And we weren't securing the hospitals either. Look at some of the photos.

Which important sites would you protect and in what order?

Again, read the statements. This is a nice rationalization for what happened (that we were so busy protecting all the important places we couldn't get everywhere), but it doesn't correlate with the military actions and the stated U.S. policies.

[Aoidoi]

Just wondering... given the statements that Hussein had been looting antiquities for years, how much was left for the more traditional looters? I suppose it will be impossible to say what was sold by whom in the aftermath... which is unfortunate if the pieces are to be recovered.

[mbp]

Originally posted by Aoidoi
Just wondering... given the statements that Hussein had been looting antiquities for years, how much was left for the more traditional looters?
True. Some stuff might have been taken by Saddam and his people before they fled. If the museum had been secured right away, we'd know for sure.

[Clancie]

The museum employees tried to stop the looting. They had also placed many things in special vaults prior to the war, but the vaults were also looted. Of course, even though offices were ransacked, all museums keep an inventory. Since nothing is left now except a few statues that were too heavy to take, they are able to know that over 150,000 items were taken or destroyed.

Of these, archaeologists think many will have already been damaged beyond repair and that the vast majority of items taken will never be recovered.

[Supercharts]

Not one damn thing in that museum is worth the life of an American Marine. Semper Fi.

[Aoidoi]

Originally posted by mbp

True. Some stuff might have been taken by Saddam and his people before they fled. If the museum had been secured right away, we'd know for sure. Or at least have had a fighting chance of figuring it out. I can see why the army would not necessarily have planned to secure a museum (it's not like it has military value), but it is regrettable that many historical artifacts will be lost (though I suspect some will reappear over time as people decide to sell or give them back).

As to the oil building, while it looks kinda sketchy, I can see why the military would want to secure it as either part of it's WMD search (as somebody mentioned above) or to search to see what evidence of illegal oil sales could be turned up. Either of those goals could help justify the war (or smear some anti-war countries, I suppose) so it's understandable that the higher-ups in the command chain would see it as something to be guarded... I know I didn't think of the museum as a potential target, I'm guess that those higher-ups didn't either, though they probably should have for PR reasons if nothing else.

[renata]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Renata, the stolen items are priceless. Only Japanese or Americans can buy them. Why?

According to an agreement signed by UNESCO 5 years ago, all the countries have agreed not to allow trade of antiquities that have been stolen from Museums.

All the countries? Nope! Only two denied to sign the agreement Japan and USA.

So, everything that it's stolen by Museums goes there.

I read though and I am terribly happy now that Interpol declared those items missing so trading them even in USA or Japan is illegal.

The USA Government also promised to provide Interpol with every possible assistance.

I was talking about the black market. It is not sanctioned by any government, and I doubt any treaty would stop profiteers. There are still lost treasures from WW1 that are unaccounted for- widely believed to be in private collections throughout the world

Originally posted by mpb


I would certainly put the National Museum higher on that list than for example the hotel containing most of the western press which WAS (is?) begin protected. Or perhaps the guys pulling down statues could have been sent to the museum instead.

Of couse they couldn't protect every single valuable thing in Baghdad, but it seems obvious (to me) that this museum should have been given a very high priority. It must have been an oversight. Perhaps they just never thought that anything like this could happen.

I agree there is no easy solution. Imagine a scenario in which armed looters clash with US soldiers posted around a museum. Looters die, soldiers die, there is a riot, widespread destruction, worldwide condemnation. Would it have been worth it? I do not know. Perhaps a small contingent would have been enough. But then someone could say- why are we protecting a museum and not a hospital? A hospital and not a school? The decisions made utilizing very limited resources in a hostile environment are very difficult. I think what happened is horrible, but I do not know what best solution would be even assuming US was warned about this eventuality.

Originally posted by Clancy

The effort of your post seems to be to put the burden on Iraqis. Only a few hundred (out of a 5 million population in Baghdad alone) were involved in looting. It's hardly the fault of "Iraqis".

That is not the efford of my post., It is quite obvious that a small portion of the population is involved in looting. However, unless you can show that some looters were US soldiers, all the looters were indeed iraqis, and the ultimate responsibility is with the looter- always.



Originally posted by Clancy

Are you saying there weren't enough troops standing around to spare ten or so and a tank to at least secure the Baghdad Museum? If we'd made an effort that was overwhelmed by looters, it would be quite different than standing by with complete indifference while things were destroyed (by a small minority of the population).


How many looters were there? How many available troops? it is useless to engage in what if speculation without having some basic facts. Hence my questions.



Originally posted by Clancy

How do you propose the people who don't believe in looting go about stopping it? Do you think that after three weeks of bombing, they're going to take guns to the street and threaten looters with shooting them? Would you arm yourself, knowing the U.S. troops might think you were firing at them? Would you shoot at looters to risk your life (maybe accidentally shooting someone) to try to stop people taking things from a museum?

Actually, Iraqis are doing just that. They armed themselves and set up checkpoints. They search cars of suspected looters, confiscate what they find and store it in a mosque. This is a great effort by them and those people should be commended. So yes, I think in this instance Iraqis are perfectly capable of solving this problem





Originally posted by Clancy
Again, this is your excuse for the Bush policy of letting looters destroy what they wanted. Bush, Franks, etc. did not say that they wanted to save the museums, but unfortunately had no troops to spare. On the contrary, the official reaction has been total indifference. Rumsfeld's quotes say it all.



I am not an apologist for the Bush administration. Your reply seems to indicate is that you don't know the answers to my questions. I am not making excuses. However, before flying off the handle and engaging in rampant speculation and second guessing, a little factual background is in order. This is a skeptical board, after all.

[Clancie]

. ...a little factual background is in order.
The factual background is that the Bush Administration met with a group of professional archaeologists before the bombing began and promised they would protect these treasures.

Further facts are that they made no attempt to do so. Nor have they claimed otherwise.
This is a skeptical board, after all.
Indeed.

[renata]

Originally posted by Clancy

The factual background is that the Bush Administration met with a group of professional archaeologists before the bombing began and promised they would protect these treasures.

Further facts are that they made no attempt to do so. Nor have they claimed otherwise.


Do you have a link for that?

Would you accept a possibility that even thought Bush administration intended to take measures to protect the museum, the troops in Baghdad
a. did not aniticipate the level of looting and in particular the speed and extent of looting of this museum
b. may have been shortstaffed protecting other areas and battling small remaining groups of militants
c. may have wanted to avoid civilian casualties and rioting, and did not interfere with the looters

In other words, there are scenarios other than gross disregard of Iraqi history by the Bush administration that would lead to the same unfortunate result. All I am asking for is some time and information on this matter. Remember there have been dozens of stories which turned out to be not what they seemed in this war. Frankly, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to our troops while waiting for the facts to come in.

[Jocko]

I said:
"How much do the Iraqi people stand to make from oil revenues?
How much can they look forward to tourism revenues for their museums?

Do the math, man. History is all well and good, but we're there to secure their future, not their past. Besides, so much of it has been plundered by Hussein & company that I'm sure you could find a fair chunk of the museums' inventories on Ebay."

Originally posted by Mercutio
quote


So the oil is worth more, and the decision was right. If the artifacts only had some practical use...just listening to the news this morning, about the Arab neighbors' take on this. It is being taken as a slap on the face to the Muslim world--the occupying forces care about the oil, whereas the real soul of the culture was in the museum. I fear that the real cost of looting the museum could be measured in suicide bombers. It would have been quite a P.R. coup to guard the museum and demonstrate appreciation for the culture we are supposed to be liberating. Without that demonstration of appreciation, it is much easier for neighbors to make the case that we are "occupying" rather than liberating. Right or wrong, the perception is there, and allowing the looting of the museum heightened it.

If not the museum, they would have plundered something else. We're not there to safeguard their heritage. If that spawns suicide bombers, then I would suspect that SOMETHING would have set them off anyway.

If those artifacts belong to the Iraqi people, and the people want them ripped off, I say God (Allah?) bless and good luck. If US soldiers had absolutely nothing else to do (like, say, avoiding suicide bombers who are pissed off at someting OTHER than historical treasures getting redistributed), then I'd say yeah, let's play policeman.

Until things are that quiet, I don't want coalition manpower wasted on directing traffic and helping the elderly across the street. Oil revenues are the only thing those people have going for them, and I find it rather elitist to suggest that the coalition has failed in its responsibilities, and how it's such a shame we didn't send in the marines to protect some clay pots.

Clay pots! Historical clay pots, but clay pots nonetheless.

Besides, I didn't hear any arab outcry when the Taliban were publicly dynamiting ancient statues in Afghanistan. I guess historical value doesn't matter when someone else's culture is involved.

[Edited to add: Besides, it's not like the coalition soldiers are the ones looting. If the arabs want to blame someone, let them blame their muslim brethren in Baghdad. If they can't even manage to do that, then they're beyond reason and not worth appeasing in my book.]

[Incitatus]

It is an ill wind, etc. Just bought the item below from ebay
http://www.oberlin.edu/art/Iraq/Iraq-028.JPG

Will look nice next to those marbles that I got from the BM.

Seriously. The safety of those treasures was the responsibility of the Iraqi government. Moving the most important of the works would have been a snap.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Incitatus


Seriously. The safety of those treasures was the responsibility of the Iraqi government. Moving the most important of the works would have been a snap.

[heavy sarcasm] Oh, sure, I'm certain the arab world would understand completely when we started shipping out the crown jewels of their civilization in trucks marked "U.S. Army."

What were we thinking? [/sarcasm]

Besides, it's just like I said. Preserve the oil revenues, get them a broadband connection and the Iraqis can get all their stuff back, no harm, no foul. ;)

[Incitatus]

Originally posted by Jocko


[heavy sarcasm] Oh, sure, I'm certain the arab world would understand completely when we started shipping out the crown jewels of their civilization in trucks marked "U.S. Army."

What were we thinking? [/sarcasm]

Besides, it's just like I said. Preserve the oil revenues, get them a broadband connection and the Iraqis can get all their stuff back, no harm, no foul. ;)

not the US army, the Iraqi army.

[mbp]

Originally posted by renata

I agree there is no easy solution. Imagine a scenario in which armed looters clash with US soldiers posted around a museum. Looters die, soldiers die, there is a riot, widespread destruction, worldwide condemnation. Would it have been worth it? I do not know.

British forces shot and killed five bank robbers in Basra. That didn't cause any worldwide condemnation, and I don't think this would have been any different.



I think what happened is horrible, but I do not know what best solution would be even assuming US was warned about this eventuality.

It's hard for us to say, as we certainly don't know everything about the situation. But I do think it is safe to say that more could and should have been done. It may well have been difficult for the soldiers actually on the streets of Baghdad to realise this and make the descision, but someone at a higher level should have been capable of seeing the big picture.
According to this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,936330,00.html) in The Guardian, the looting was actually stopped temporarily by US forces. But when they left it started again.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Incitatus


not the US army, the Iraqi army.

I think all the really secure hiding places in Iraq are already occupied....:p

[Incitatus]

Originally posted by Jocko


I think all the really secure hiding places in Iraq are already occupied....:p

right, forgot about that, never mind

[Clancie]

JockoClay pots! Historical clay pots, but clay pots nonetheless.

If 5000 year old artifacts don't impress you, what about Hammurabi's Code carved into the tablets that were displayed in Baghdad Museum (but now are gone)?

Besides, I didn't hear any arab outcry when the Taliban were publicly dynamiting ancient statues in Afghanistan.
Maybe didn't hear it because you weren't listening to it. Arab outcry was widespread and widely reported. Several well-known mullahs even personally intervened with the Taliban, trying very hard to save the Buddhist sculptures (as did the President of Pakistan, among others).

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Jocko
Besides, I didn't hear any arab outcry when the Taliban were publicly dynamiting ancient statues in Afghanistan. I guess historical value doesn't matter when someone else's culture is involved.
Maybe because you don't read Arab papers. There was a tremendous outcry from all parts of the world when the Taliban began destroying that statue. It was the first time that many of us figured out that the Taliban was maybe a little over-the-edge. And you didn't see much of the Arab world object when we went after the Taliban either. Some of them actually helped us.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tricky

Maybe because you don't read Arab papers. There was a tremendous outcry from all parts of the world when the Taliban began destroying that statue. It was the first time that many of us figured out that the Taliban was maybe a little over-the-edge. And you didn't see much of the Arab world object when we went after the Taliban either. Some of them actually helped us.

Okay, fair point. I spoke rashly.

And clancy, no, I don't give a rat's ass about 5,000-year-old pots and I'm not particularly hot about Hammurabi's Code either. The content is recorded, its place in history secure.

Apart from sentimentality, what value does the tablet have?

The original books of the Bible are long lost. And the Constitution would endure even if the document were destroyed.

Besides, can you offer evidence that looters, and not a cash-starved Saddam regime, stole the tablets?

[a_unique_person]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/14/1050172535590.html



Pentagon knew risk to priceless antiquities
April 15 2003

The warnings of US archaeologists about the danger to antiquities went unheeded, writes Guy Gugliotta.


In the months leading up to the war in Iraq, US scholars repeatedly urged the Defence Department to protect Iraq's priceless archaeological heritage from looters, and warned specifically that the National Museum of Antiquities was the single most important site in the country.

Late in January, a mix of scholars, museum directors, art collectors and antiquities dealers asked for and were granted a meeting at the Pentagon to discuss their misgivings.

McGuire Gibson, an Iraq specialist at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute, said on Sunday that he went back twice more, and he and colleagues peppered Defence Department officials with email reminders in the weeks before the war began.

"I thought I was given assurances that sites and museums would be protected," Dr Gibson said. Instead, even with US forces firmly in control of Baghdad last week, looters breached the museum, trashed its galleries, burnt its records, invaded its vaults and smashed or carried off thousands of artefacts dating from the founding of ancient Sumer around 3500 BC to the end of Islam's Abbasid Caliphate in 1258AD.



As has been shown in a previous link, the looting stopped when the troops turned up. There was also an indication that there was inside knowledge used to loot the hidden relics.

The Pentagon was warned about this and agreed to prevent such an occurance..

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/14/1050172535590.html



As has been shown in a previous link, the looting stopped when the troops turned up. There was also an indication that there was inside knowledge used to loot the hidden relics.

The Pentagon was warned about this and agreed to prevent such an occurance..

You forgot to mention the UFOs and the magnetic attraction of certain objects from Sumer. Please read some history books. You are not very sensitive.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Jocko
Okay, fair point. I spoke rashly.
Thank you sir, you are a gentleman.

And clancy, no, I don't give a rat's ass about 5,000-year-old pots and I'm not particularly hot about Hammurabi's Code either. The content is recorded, its place in history secure.

Apart from sentimentality, what value does the tablet have?
You may find this odd, but I mostly agree with you. I am bored out of my tree by archeological artifacts, however I know that they can be very important. Although we may have copied the text from the tablet, there is no telling what future discoveries about the material and other minutae may have uncovered. However, I confess to being ungenerous with rodent posteriors on this issue too.


Besides, can you offer evidence that looters, and not a cash-starved Saddam regime, stole the tablets?
Well, we did see a bunch of looters. Not to say it is impossible that it could have been Saddam's henchmen, but it seems unlikely that they would have had room in their trunks because they were all filled up with WMDs. ;)

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Tricky

Thank you sir, you are a gentleman.


You may find this odd, but I mostly agree with you. I am bored out of my tree by archeological artifacts, however I know that they can be very important. Although we may have copied the text from the tablet, there is no telling what future discoveries about the material and other minutae may have uncovered. However, I confess to being ungenerous with rodent posteriors on this issue too.


Arrgghhh, only some old clay pots and artifacts. These are actual pieces of work produced by human beings from 5,000 years ago. Can you imagine what the world was like then? What it was like to live then, the ideas of the world, the creation of writing.

These are not just old pieces of pottery, they are pieces of pottery that we can hold just as another human being once held them. What was the day like they held that piece of pottery. The sun was shining, perhaps, they had no planes or other modern transport. No one knew how big the world was. There were all kinds of terrors. There were completely different ways of perceiving the world intellectually, but they still experienced the same emotions as us.

For example, the name of a god was not just a label, it was as good as the real thing. To utter the name of a god was to invoke his presence. You can see this same idea in Genesis.

You can see works of art that interpret the world as they saw it, made by highly skilled craftsmen.

read this and see if you are not moved.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~ajones/cla206/assyrian_letters.pdf

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by renata


Do you have a link for that?
.

Renata I know this too. I know for sure that the some professors of Cambridge University ( some of them have participated in expediotion in Iraq) and the Ashmolean Museum have asked the American Government to protect the Museum of Bagdad.

Look. The American Army made a mistake. It's better to admit it and help Interpol find the items.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Arrgghhh, only some old clay pots and artifacts. These are actual pieces of work produced by human beings from 5,000 years ago. Can you imagine what the world was like then? What it was like to live then, the ideas of the world, the creation of writing.

These are not just old pieces of pottery, they are pieces of pottery that we can hold just as another human being once held them. What was the day like they held that piece of pottery. The sun was shining, perhaps, they had no planes or other modern transport. No one knew how big the world was. There were all kinds of terrors. There were completely different ways of perceiving the world intellectually, but they still experienced the same emotions as us.

For example, the name of a god was not just a label, it was as good as the real thing. To utter the name of a god was to invoke his presence. You can see this same idea in Genesis.

You can see works of art that interpret the world as they saw it, made by highly skilled craftsmen.

read this and see if you are not moved.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~ajones/cla206/assyrian_letters.pdf
Sorry, AUP. I did not mean to imply that the "treasures" were unimportant, only that I personally do not find them that interesting. I can envision early civilizations quite well without holding a piece of pottery in my hands. Of course, I recognize that we would never know what ancient civilizations were like without these artifacts and the people who have spent their lives recovering and examining them.

It's just that... well.... I can't be interested in everything. :(

[Jocko]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Arrgghhh, only some old clay pots and artifacts. These are actual pieces of work produced by human beings from 5,000 years ago. Can you imagine what the world was like then? What it was like to live then, the ideas of the world, the creation of writing.

These are not just old pieces of pottery, they are pieces of pottery that we can hold just as another human being once held them. What was the day like they held that piece of pottery. The sun was shining, perhaps, they had no planes or other modern transport. No one knew how big the world was. There were all kinds of terrors. There were completely different ways of perceiving the world intellectually, but they still experienced the same emotions as us.

For example, the name of a god was not just a label, it was as good as the real thing. To utter the name of a god was to invoke his presence. You can see this same idea in Genesis.

You can see works of art that interpret the world as they saw it, made by highly skilled craftsmen.

read this and see if you are not moved.

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~ajones/cla206/assyrian_letters.pdf

I am not moved. More to the point, a lot of Iraqi looters weren't moved either.

It's a shame, don't get me wrong about that. But it's just a shame and not a disaster by any measure I can contemplate. I would be more wounded by a crashed server that wipes out a week's worth of work, to be honest with you. I'm sure an archaeologist would have a different take on that, but I really can't get outraged by Iraqis ransacking their own national treasures (Saddam's own looting or the acts of outraged civilians).

As I said, and you have demonstrated, it's mostly about sentimentality- and there isn't enough of that in the world to make any of that stuff worth a single US or Iraqi life.

[heath]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


I expect more of the offspings of those who practically built the modern world and democracy, that's all.

I didn't know the greeks were involved in this.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Clancy
The museum employees tried to stop the looting. They had also placed many things in special vaults prior to the war, but the vaults were also looted. Of course, even though offices were ransacked, all museums keep an inventory. Since nothing is left now except a few statues that were too heavy to take, they are able to know that over 150,000 items were taken or destroyed.

Of these, archaeologists think many will have already been damaged beyond repair and that the vast majority of items taken will never be recovered.
This is indeed a deep shame.

I know that these artifacts are not as robust as they used to be and some were certainly destroyed. On the (tentatively) bright side, however, many of these treasures have probably been looted/stolen/seized back and forth dozens of times in the past 5,000 years – under even less auspicious circumstances than last week – yet they all ended up, at least for a while, in the same museum. Who’s to say that many of them might not find their way back to museums in the years to come? We can always hope. If the latest looting is the worst thing to happen to some of these antiquities in the last few millennia (or even the last couple of hundred years), I’d be surprised.

At least the items were inventoried, and unlike in prior centuries, today we have in place a relatively sophisticated international system in place to combat illicit trafficking in cultural property. I hope we can use it to mitigate the consequences of this sad event.

[Thanz]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
It is interesting to note that no-one seems to be outraged that the Iraqi people are destroying these artifacts, but that the American forces aren't stopping them.

I think that this is an excellent observation and bears repeating. Some Slefish Iraqi idiots are to blame here. Yes, the U.S. probably could have prevented it, but let's put most of the blame where it belongs: on the looters.

Originally posted by Clancy
If 5000 year old artifacts don't impress you, what about Hammurabi's Code carved into the tablets that were displayed in Baghdad Museum (but now are gone)?

Pssst - Clancy - the code of Hammurabi is safe. It's in the Louvre.

[hammegk]

This may be repitition -- if so, sorry.

If not, AUP, how many Iraqis should Saddam have been allowed to continue to torture/murder each day to keep the museum contents safe?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by renata



Actually, Iraqis are doing just that. They armed themselves and set up checkpoints. They search cars of suspected looters, confiscate what they find and store it in a mosque. This is a great effort by them and those people should be commended. So yes, I think in this instance Iraqis are perfectly capable of solving this problem



Hey Renata, :)

Well It seems to me that the Iraqis could have done just that earlier on. I wouldn't have taken a genius to move the museum's collection to the biggest and most famous mosque in all Baghdad! Why didn't they do that? Or would an action like that have been frowned upon by the regime as "defeatist"??

The conclusion that I reach is that the regime is ultimately at fault here. They continually risked cultural sites to store military equipment. Maybe the museum curator couldn't fit the museum's collection in the mosque with all those T72's taking up so much space eh?? ;)

-zilla

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by heath


I didn't know the greeks were involved in this.

I didn't have in mind the Greeks but Lord Elgin.

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filename
filename extension

flat name space
floppy disk
flow control
folder
font
font set
font types
fork
FQDN

frame
framing rules
free space
FTP
full name
full synchronization
full-screen application
fully qualified domain name (FQDN)

G

gateway
Gateway Service for NetWare
General MIDI
global account
global group
group
group account
group category
group memberships

group name
guest
guest account
guest privilege

H

handle
handshaking
Hardware Compatibility List (HCL)
HCL
heterogeneous environment
hexadecimal
high memory area
hive
h-node

home directory
hop
host
host ID
host name
host table
HOSTS file
HTML
hue

I

I/O addresses
ICMP
icon
IDE
IETF
IGMP
IIS
impersonation
import
import computers

import path
input/output activity
insertion point
Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN)
interactive logon
intermediary devices
internal command
internet

internet control message protocol (ICMP)
Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)
internet group names
Internet Protocol (IP)
internet router
internetworks
interprocess communication (IPC)

interrupt request lines (IRQ)
IP
IP address
IP datagrams
IP router
IPC
IPCP
IPX/SPX
ISDN

ISO
ISP
iteration

J

jump

K

Kermit
kernel driver
KEY
key map
keyboard buffer

L

LAN
lease
license group
line printer daemon (LPD)
linked object
list box
LMHOSTS file
local account
local area network (LAN)

local group
local guest logon
local printer
local user profiles
LocalTalk
lock
log books
log files
log off

log on
logical drive
Logical Unit
logon hours
logon script
logon script path
logon workstations
long name
LPD

luminosity

M

MAC
MAC address
Mac volume
MacFile
MacFile menu
Macintosh-accessible volume
Macintosh-style permissions
MacPrint
Make Changes

management information base (MIB)
mandatory user profile
mapping
mapping file
master browser
master domain
maximize
Maximize button

maximum password age
media access control (MAC)
media access control (MAC) driver
Media Control Interface (MCI)
member servers
memory
menu
menu bar

Messenger service
MIB
MIDI
MIDI setup
Migration Tool for NetWare
minimize
Minimize button
minimum password age
minimum password length

mirror set
m-node
MS-DOSbased application
multicast datagrams
multihomed computer
multihomed system
multilink dialing
multiple-boot

MultiProtocol Routing (MPR)

N

name mapping
name resolution service
named pipe
NDIS
Net Logon service
NetBEUI
NetBIOS
NetBT
network adapter

network adapter card
network administrator
network basic input/output system (NetBIOS)
network card driver
network card
Network DDE DSDM service
Network DDE service
network device driver

network device interface specification (NDIS)
network directory
network driver
Network Driver Interface Specification
Network File System (NFS)
network ID
Network Information Service (NIS)

network interface card (NIC)
network number
network range
network sniffer
NFS
NIS
node
nonpaged memory
non-Windows_NT application

NT
NT file system
NTFS
NWLink IPX\SPX Compatible Transport

O

object
object linking and embedding
octet
offset
one-way trust relationship
open
orphan
orphaned member
OSI

owner
owner category

P

package
packet
packet header
PADs
paging file
PAP
parity
partial synchronization
partition

pass-through authentication
password
password parameters
password uniqueness
patch map
path
PC
peer
pel

permissions
personal groups
Physical Unit
ping
plotter font
p-node
Point to Point protocol
Point-to-Point Tunneling Protocol (PPTP)

pointer
pop-up menu
port
port ID
PostScript printer
POTS
power conditioning
PPP
PPTP

predefined key
Primary Domain Controller
primary group
primary group category
primary partition
print device
print job
print processor

Print Server for Macintosh
print server
print sharing
print spooler
printer
printer driver
printer fonts
printer permissions
printer window

printing pool
private volume
privilege level
process
program file
program group
program information file (PIF)
program item
program-item icon

promiscuous mode
property
protocol
protocol driver
protocol parser
protocol properties
protocol stack
proxy
PSTN

pull partner
push partner

Q

queue
quick format

R

RAID
RAM
RAS
recursion
reduce
reduced instruction set computing
refresh
registration
registry

registry size limit (RSL)
Remote Access Service
remote administration
remote logon
remote procedure call
Remote Procedure Call service
renew
repeaters

replication
replicators
Requests for Comments (RFCs)
resolution
resolvers
resource
resource domain
resource fork
response

RFC
right
RIP
RISC
roaming user profiles
root directory
router
routing
routing information protocol (RIP)

routing table
RPC
RPC Locator service
RPC service

S

SACL
SAM
SAP
saturation
scavenging
Schedule service
screen buffer
screen elements
screen fonts

screen saver
scroll
scroll arrow
scroll bar
scroll box
scroll buffer
SCSI
section header
secure attention sequence

secure communications channel
security
security accounts manager
security database
security host
security ID
security identifier
security log

security policies
See Files
See Folders
seed router
select
selection cursor
sequence number
Serial Line IP (SLIP)
server

server application
Server Manager
Server service
server zone
service
Services for Macintosh
session
SFM
share name

share permissions
shared directory
shared network directory
shared resource
shares
short name
shortcut key
SID
silent mode

simple device
Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP)
single user logon
SLIP
SMB
SMS
SMTP
SNA
snapshot

sniffer
Sniffer files
SNMP
socket
Sockets
source directory
source document
SPAP
special access permissions

split bar
spooler
spooling
stabilize
stand-alone server
static object
static routing
status bar
string

stripe set
stripe sets with parity
subdirectory
subkey
subnet
subnet mask
substitution macros
subtree
swap file

switched circuit
synchronize
syntax
system default profile
system disk
system log
System Network Architecture (SNA)
system partition

system policy
systemroot

T

tape set
TAPI
Task List
Task Manager
TCP
TCP/IP
TDI
template accounts
terminate-and-stay-resident program (TSR)

text box
text file
text-file transfer
text-only
thread
time slice
timeout
title bar
Token Ring

toolbar
topic
Transmission Control Protocol (TCP)
Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)
transport driver interface (TDI)
trap
trigger
Trojan horse

TrueType fonts
trust
trust relationship
trust relationships policy
TSR
two-way trust relationship
type
Type 1 fonts

U

UAM
UDP
unavailable
UNC name
unicast datagram
uninterruptible power supply (UPS)
UPS
UPS service
user account

user account database
user authentication module
User Datagram Protocol (UDP)
user default profile
User Manager
User Manager for Domains
user name
user password

User privilege
user profile
user rights
user rights policy
users

V

value entry
Van Jacobsen header compression
variables
VDD
VDM
verify operation
virtual memory
virtual printer memory
virus

volume
volume password
volume set
VPN

W

wallpaper
WAN
warning beep
wide area network (WAN)
wildcard
window
window menu
Windows Internet Name Service (WINS)
Windows NT browser system

Windows NT Registry
Windows NT Server Directory Services
Windows NT Server Services for Macintosh
Windows_NT application
Windows_NT Server
Windows_NT Workstation
WINS
workgroup

working set
workstation
Workstation service
WOSA
WOW
wrap

X

XModem/CRC
X.25
X.25 smart card
XModem/CRC
XOR

Y

No Glossary entries.

Z

zone
zone list

[renata]

More detailed story on this matter
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/15/sprj.irq.museum.looting/index.html


DOHA, Qatar (CNN) -- Senior U.S. military officials have admitted Iraqi museums were plundered during a "void in security" and that they failed to anticipate Iraq's cultural riches would be looted by its own people.

Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks said Tuesday that forces entering Baghdad were involved in "very intense combat," and in removing the regime and conducting military operations, a "vacuum" was created.

"I don't think anyone anticipated that the riches of Iraq would be looted by the Iraqi people. And indeed it happened in some places" including the National Museum of Iraq in Baghdad, he told reporters at U.S. Central Command in Doha, Qatar.

He said that while "it may be after the fact" it remained important to restore institutions and retrieve as many items as possible.

.....

Britain's Defense Ministry said British troops were not deployed in Baghdad but said U.S. forces were in a difficult position during "the interim period."

"Fighting is continuing and the Americans are still suffering casualties so the U.S. must deploy their forces as best they can," an MOD spokesman told CNN.

"The U.S. have a relatively small number of forces in Baghdad for the size of the city but they are now beginning to exert more control and are working with Iraqi police to try to minimize lawlessness."

.............
In an interview with CNN, a leading academic in Britain said Tuesday that U.S. and British authorities were aware of the possibility that museums throughout Iraq could be looted and damaged during warfare and "action should have been taken" to avert the pillaging.

Robert Springborg said that "proper authorities were duly informed" by art historians, archaeologists and other scholars about the "possibility of this occurrence." These includes the U.N. Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, which urged protection of the country's cultural treasures.

.............

He said the looting was done by two kinds of people -- the very poor and those who were "well-informed" about the cultural treasures who went into "vaults themselves to find particular objects."

The National Museum of Iraq "had been closed during much of the 1990s, and as with many Iraqi institutions, its operations were cloaked in secrecy" under former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein, The New York Times reported.

Reporters were shown scenes of the devastation during a tour of the museum Tuesday.

They saw signs of professional theft -- such as the existence of glass-cutters and the lifting of a 7,000-year-old bronze bust, weighing hundreds of kilograms that officials say no normal looter would take.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


I didn't have in mind the Greeks but Lord Elgin.

Elgin? Elgin Senior, who robbed Greece of half its statuary? Or Elgin Junior, who razed the Summer Palace to the ground? I'm quite glad we're not emulating that pair!