SPOILER ALERT! For those who have read the Half Blood Prince ONLY!

[Tricky]

Just finished the book. Possibly the best one in the series so far, with many of the characters (especiallly Voldemort) becoming fully fleshed. Yeah, I know who dies, but I won't reveal it in this first post.

The most important thing to me is the one bit that seems to be glossed over. It is crucial to the next book, but nobody has talked about it.

Yeah, the end gets a bit confused.

Lots of funny stuff, especially the addition to the backstory of Fleur Delacours.

So, who's ready to talk?

Oh, and you're all wrong about the half-blood prince.

[Lisa Simpson]

No, in a long ago thread about the identity of the half-blood prince someone did suggest Snape. I don't remember who and don't have the time to look for the thread right now. I should be cleaning the house, not reading the forums.

Anyway, I seriously don't think Snape went bad. I think Dumbledore and Snape had set this up a while ago. That's why Dumbledore was asking for Snape only.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
No, in a long ago thread about the identity of the half-blood prince someone did suggest Snape. I don't remember who and don't have the time to look for the thread right now. I should be cleaning the house, not reading the forums.

Anyway, I seriously don't think Snape went bad. I think Dumbledore and Snape had set this up a while ago. That's why Dumbledore was asking for Snape only.
You're right about the pick, but it was their second choice. Besides, if you run through all the characters, you're bound to get one eventually.

Also, you hit exactly upon that which I was referring to. Snape did the deed to keep Malfoy from doing it. He was going to die anyway, but this prevented it from being done by Voldemort's henchman. When he said "please" he meant "please kill me".

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Tricky
You're right about the pick, but it was their second choice. Besides, if you run through all the characters, you're bound to get one eventually.

Also, you hit exactly upon that which I was referring to. Snape did the deed to keep Malfoy from doing it. He was going to die anyway, but this prevented it from being done by Voldemort's henchman. When he said "please" he meant "please kill me".

Yeah. I think Dumbledore knew the end was near at the beginning of the book, that's (partly) why he was showing Harry everything he needed to know to continue on the fight. And Snape was in on Dumbledore's plan.

I actually felt sorry for Draco in the showdown scene with Dumbledore. Sympathy for Draco, who'd have thunk it?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
Yeah. I think Dumbledore knew the end was near at the beginning of the book, that's (partly) why he was showing Harry everything he needed to know to continue on the fight. And Snape was in on Dumbledore's plan.

I actually felt sorry for Draco in the showdown scene with Dumbledore. Sympathy for Draco, who'd have thunk it?
I've always felt a twinge of sympathy for Draco. Must be tough with parents like that, especially when you keep getting shown up by their worst enemy.

I sort of had an inkling it might be Dumbledore too, and when he showed up with the scorched hand, I felt pretty certain. There was a short time though that I though it might be Ginny.

Their romance caught me completely by surprise though.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Tricky
Their romance caught me completely by surprise though.

It didn't catch me by surprise. It's a fairly typical romance plot.

Girl loves boy.

Boy doesn't notice her.

Girl finds other boy.

First boy finally notices her and gets jealous.

Boy and girl get together.


And often there is a girlfriend of the girl who tells her to date someone else in order to set the chain in motion, just like Hermoine did for Ginny.

ETA: There is also often a girl that the boy likes (Cho) who isn't as worthy of him as the original girl.

[TragicMonkey]

I knew he'd wind up with Ginny, but I was hoping he'd go for Luna instead. She's much more interesting.

And I'm pretty disappointed about the Lupin/Tonks thing. Up until now, Lupin's werewolfishness was a pretty good metaphor for him being gay.

Who else thinks Harry is one of the Horcruxes? It would explain the mental link with Voldemort and the snake talk.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey

Who else thinks Harry is one of the Horcruxes? It would explain the mental link with Voldemort and the snake talk.

That's a cool idea, but wouldn't it mean that Harry has to die in order to completely get rid of Voldie?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
That's a cool idea, but wouldn't it mean that Harry has to die in order to completely get rid of Voldie?

Yep. It's going to be an angsty adolescence for ole Harry.

On the plus side, it will leave Ginny free for Neville.

And Neville can then fulfill the prophecy by being the one to actually finish off Voldemort.

And Hermione will use her vast magical knowledge to invent birth control, and the next generation of Weaselys will be a lot fewer and less poor.

[LostAngeles]

About time. I finished this at 10PM PDT yesterday. It took me about five or six hours.

I think most of them were spent staring at the last page of Chapter Twenty-seven.

I think Draco's our Anakin now. I think he'll be the deus ex machina in the last book. He'll still hate Harry though.

J.K. Rowling is going over familiar territory. She's doing it WELL, though.

Still, I loved the possibility that it could have been Neville and I love the possibility that it could still be Neville.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I knew he'd wind up with Ginny, but I was hoping he'd go for Luna instead. She's much more interesting.
Well, now that he's told Ginny he can't be with her for her own safety (shades of Spiderman) that leaves the door open for Luna, who is bound to have some quirky but important talent.

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
And I'm pretty disappointed about the Lupin/Tonks thing. Up until now, Lupin's werewolfishness was a pretty good metaphor for him being gay.
I always thought Tonks was a throwaway character. She never seemed to have anything much interesting about her. Lupin has seen his time come and go too, so I don't really think their romance is any kind of big deal, not like Bill and Fleur. I never pictured his lycanthropy as a gay metaphor, though I can see how that might be streched to fit. Outside of the obvious familial love that the Weasleys have, there hasn't been any adult romance to speak of since Harry's parents.

But one thing does interest me and I'm not sure if the Fleur/Bill thing will bring it out. Where are the other magic houses during all this?

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Who else thinks Harry is one of the Horcruxes? It would explain the mental link with Voldemort and the snake talk.
I don't think that works because Voldemort would have to deliberately implant a bit of his "soul" into the horcruxes (If it were Harry, it would probablly be his scar.) The mental link and parselmouth thing has already been explained because he got a bit of Voldemort when the curse failed.

Besides, the prophecy says "one of them must die". Well you don't need Trelwany to tell you that it can't be Harry. If he did, Rowling would probably have a vendetta against her that would make Salmon Rushdie shudder with fright.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Tricky
I don't think that works because Voldemort would have to deliberately implant a bit of his "soul" into the horcruxes (If it were Harry, it would probablly be his scar.) The mental link and parselmouth thing has already been explained because he got a bit of Voldemort when the curse failed.

It's the "getting a bit of Voldemort" that makes me think he's a Horcrux. It wasn't intentional, of course. And since Voldy's tried to kill him a few times, it looks like he doesn't know it himself. Dumbledore thought Harry's was supposed to be one of the significant deaths, and something went all haywire unexpectedly. I think it fits.



Besides, the prophecy says "one of them must die". Well you don't need Trelwany to tell you that it can't be Harry. If he did, Rowling would probably have a vendetta against her that would make Salmon Rushdie shudder with fright.

Oh, he'll probably spent half the next book worried about it and bravely determined to kill himself, but then Hermione will find some way to extract the bit of soul, and Harry's scar will go away. It would be funny if all his magical talent went with it. Or else Voldemort will figure it out and kidnap Harry and do it himself, and then Draco can redeem himself by rescuing Harry or something lame. Or he'll go nuts and try to put Voldy's soul into himself and become a little dark lord himself.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
It's the "getting a bit of Voldemort" that makes me think he's a Horcrux. It wasn't intentional, of course. And since Voldy's tried to kill him a few times, it looks like he doesn't know it himself. Dumbledore thought Harry's was supposed to be one of the significant deaths, and something went all haywire unexpectedly. I think it fits.
Well, it could fit, especially since you have to kill someone to make a Horcrux (in this case, Harry's mother). There were supposed to be six Horcruxes to make seven bits of soul including the orig. Would Harry be the seventh, being the Gryffindor "relic" that Voldy needed? Or would the "accidental" horcrucifixion (like that word? I just made it up.) bugger up the numerology, which is what has led to Voldy's problems? Or is it all moot?

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Oh, he'll probably spent half the next book worried about it and bravely determined to kill himself, but then Hermione will find some way to extract the bit of soul, and Harry's scar will go away. It would be funny if all his magical talent went with it. Or else Voldemort will figure it out and kidnap Harry and do it himself, and then Draco can redeem himself by rescuing Harry or something lame. Or he'll go nuts and try to put Voldy's soul into himself and become a little dark lord himself.
LOL. Lots of ideas there. In spite of what some have seen as a standard plot, I have been continually surprised by the twists the series has taken. (How did you get so jaded, Lisa? ;) )

One thing I totally expect though is that Harry will continue to talk to Dumbledore. I don't think it was for nothing that this book emphasized how the portraits in the headmaster's office can communicate with the living. Somebody's got to tell Harry where to look for the other horcruxes.

Lots of things still not tied up though. Will Narcissa turn against Voldemort for losing her son? Will Petunia turn out to be a witch herself? What about that new Minister of Magic, who is one dangerous sumbitch if I ever saw one. And of course, the whole thing with Neville is wide open. Ah well, just two more years and I'll know.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by Tricky
(How did you get so jaded, Lisa? ;) )

It's not that I'm jaded. It's that Harry is following a typical hero's journey.

A small comparison of Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker and William the Bloody aka Spike on their Hero Journeys.


Separation from the known

The call to adventure
*Harry finds out he's a wizard
*Luke sees the message from Princess Leia
*Spike gets the chip put in his head

The Threshold

*Harry meets Dumbledore
*Luke meets Obi-wan
*Spike helps people he used to view as Happy Meals on legs

Initiation and Transformation
The Challenges

*Harry faces off against Voldemort/Quirrel
*Luke helps save Leia
*Spike fights with the good guys against Glory

Into the Abyss

*Harry learns of the prophecy.
*Luke finds out that his daddy is Darth.
*Spike hurts Buffy.

Transformation and Revelation

*Harry realizes he would fight Voldemort even if the prophecy had been about Neville.
*Luke chooses not to go to the Dark Side.
*Spike gets his soul restored.

Atonement

*This probably will happen in the seventh book for Harry
*Luke becomes a Jedi
*Spike dies to save the world.

The Return
*Again, seventh book
*Luke teaches new Jedi
*Spike gets reborn on "Angel"

[tkingdoll]

So who did the old 'switcheroo' with the locket horcrux? Snape seems the obvious candidate, which would explain his hatred of Harry. If Snape is determined to vanquish Voldemort himself, then he wouldn't take kindly to a younger "more fanciable" model nipping in and stealing the glory.

But that seems a bit too obvious.

I thought the actual 'half-blood prince' element was a bit pointless. It didn't really advance the story or the series and reeked of both Riddle's diary and the map. Also, it was pretty obvious from fairly early on in the book, what with all the references to Snape not being Potions master anymore. Let's see, who's good at Potions? Hmm, Snape must be quite handy, he was potions master . Presumably it'll be important for the last book.

I shed a teeny tear at Dumbledore's funeral, but nowhere near the buckets that the last two prompted.

Hagrid is almost entirely redundant now, his presence was contrived in the few scenes in which he appeared, and even the characters admitted they'd outgrown him. Good riddance, I say, can't stand the lumbering oaf ("yer a wizard Harry!")

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
Also, it was pretty obvious from fairly early on in the book, what with all the references to Snape not being Potions master anymore. Let's see, who's good at Potions? Hmm, Snape must be quite handy, he was potions master . Presumably it'll be important for the last book.


I admit I didn't see that one coming. I was hoping it was a woman, and would turn out to be McGonagall, and she'd turn out to be a lot more interesting than the feeble pathetic dead weight that she's been the whole series. How can Mr Superwizard have such freakin' pathetic assistants? His staff are all idiots, drunks, or freaks (or combinations thereof) who never get anything right. The frickin' kids are more competent.

Also, I thought all the Slytherins were pure bloods? What was Snape doing in there? And did they ever come out and actually say that Voldemort was a Slytherin himself? I kinda figured he'd be a Gryffendor, just to f*** with Harry's prejudices. That "house" crap reeks of English public school elitism. "I say, old boy, I was in Daftbuttocks at Eton, too! So was Todgers and Scrimpy! Do lets take tea and discuss the merger!" Bleah!

[Tricky]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I admit I didn't see that one coming. I was hoping it was a woman, and would turn out to be McGonagall, and she'd turn out to be a lot more interesting than the feeble pathetic dead weight that she's been the whole series. How can Mr Superwizard have such freakin' pathetic assistants? His staff are all idiots, drunks, or freaks (or combinations thereof) who never get anything right. The frickin' kids are more competent.
Yeah, I've often wondered about McGonagall. She doesn't seem to do much to justify her second-in-command status. But the teachers vary. Snapes is obviously competent, if a complete nepotistic arse. The hospital seems to be well run too, and sprout has always been good with herbology. but like any school, you get some good, some bad professors.

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Also, I thought all the Slytherins were pure bloods? What was Snape doing in there? And did they ever come out and actually say that Voldemort was a Slytherin himself? I kinda figured he'd be a Gryffendor, just to f*** with Harry's prejudices.
Yeah, that doesn't make much sense either. Malfoy seems totally aware of the heritage of each student in the school. How could he not also check up on his teachers? Surely his dad knew Snapes was a half-blood.

Didn't Voldemort get revealed as the "heir of Slytherin" in the second book or so? Not that heritage seems to be the only thing that determines what house you go into. Frankly, I'm suprised Percy got sorted into Gryffindor. He's a total wanker.

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
That "house" crap reeks of English public school elitism. "I say, old boy, I was in Daftbuttocks at Eton, too! So was Todgers and Scrimpy! Do lets take tea and discuss the merger!" Bleah!

Not much different that American fraternity elitism. But at least at Hogwarts, anybody who is a wizard can go. It is not only for the wealthy and well-connected. But it's true, Slytherin seems like the "rich fraternity" on campus while Gryffindor is more like the "jocks fraternity".

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Tricky
Yeah, I've often wondered about McGonagall. She doesn't seem to do much to justify her second-in-command status. But the teachers vary. Snapes is obviously competent, if a complete nepotistic arse. The hospital seems to be well run too, and sprout has always been good with herbology. but like any school, you get some good, some bad professors.


Except for when she completely owned Umbridge in OotP.

[Tricky]

Well, now that most of the spoilers have been revealed, might as well talk about the book.

Biggest Surprise: Harry quickly outgrew the pouting, petulant punk he was in "Order of the Phoenix". He was only occasionally annoying.

Biggest Disappointment: Fred and George had such small parts. After the way they burst to the forefront in "Phoenix", I thought they'd be much more essential to this one.

Funniest bit: Ron and Lavender in Public Displays of Affection. "Squirming like eels" or something to that effect was what Hermione said.

Best newcomer: Rufus Scrimgeour. He's no Cornelius Fudge, but looks much more dangerous. I don't have a good read on him yet. Seems like a bad guy, but the way he is described, it could be another one of those "surprises". Slughorn was a bit of a prat and not at all convincing. I liked the way that Narcissa Malfoy got fleshed out though. Fleur Delacour was great for comic relief too.

Most predictable: Ron and Hermione getting closer.

Lamest device: "lucky potion."

Hottest babe: Ginny, without a doubt. Smart, atheletic, funny, cute, puts up with no BS from boyfriends. Fleur's just a glamor girl.

Hottest guy: (not that I'm much of an authority) Bill, before his little brush with a werewolf. That's going to be interesting to watch too.

Best revelation: History of Voldemort. I can see JK Rowling is trying to get some things tied up before she starts the last book.

Biggest question: Lots of 'em. Will Hogwarts open, and if so, who will be there? What's going on with Snape and Draco Malfoy? Of course, who took the Horcrux and why? What part does Luna Lovejoy have to play? Neville?

Least interesting: The romance between Tonks and Lupin.

Most unfathomable: Why did Dumbledore sacrifice himself to get that one Horcrux, when there are at least four others? Interesting symbology though with Dumbledore drinking "poison" sort of like Socrates. That bit was way overdone.

I may sound critical, but really, it was my favorite book of the series. Pheoenix was the worst, and I was afraid it was going downhill.

[TragicMonkey]

I liked how Bellatrix, fearsome evil uberbitch from the last book, turns out to squabble and quarrel with her sister. Thought she was going to get into a slappy fight with her on the way to see Snape.

And I'm glad Draco's getting a third dimension at long last. And he's not as stupid as he used to be, figuring out a way to get into Hogwarts and all, using the Room of Requirement and actually thinking about one of the damned magical objects that everyone took for granted. I know it's fantasy, but it riles my scientific bones that they all use magic, but never seem to study it.

I also noticed that they learn magic and absolutely nothing else. Not English, not literature, not art, not music, not health...nothing but magic. They don't even have P.E. I wonder if they'll have sex ed? If so, the concept of contraception needs to be emphasized to the Weaselys. I know I harp on the subject, but damn! Six kids? One working parent?

eta: Most of their homework seems to be essay writing, yet they don't have an English class to teach essay writing. Did they all learn how to write well before they enrolled at age 10?

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
So who did the old 'switcheroo' with the locket horcrux?

Sirius' brother:
Regulus Black, his "idiot" younger brother who became a Death Eater. Sirius: "From what I found out after he died, he [Regulus] got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do, and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death" (OP6).

(courtesy HP Lexicon)

[richardm]

Originally posted by Tricky
Lamest device: "lucky potion."


I did like the way Harry didn't use it on Ron, though. Quite nifty. Possibly not original, but it made me laugh :)

I must admit it was a genuine surprise to that Snape is (or appears to be at the moment) one of the bad guys. I was certain that he really was on Dumbledore's side, simply because Harry railing against him was such a theme in every single book. And I did a double-take when it transpired that he was the Half-Blood prince. Didn't see that coming.


Also, you hit exactly upon that which I was referring to. Snape did the deed to keep Malfoy from doing it. He was going to die anyway, but this prevented it from being done by Voldemort's henchman. When he said "please" he meant "please kill me".


Snape was obliged to kill Dumbledore if Draco looked like he was going to fail, because he'd taken the Unbreakable Vow back in chapter 2. So if he planned it ahead of time with Dumbledore, it was quite lucky that things played out like they did. I have to say that if Dumbledore's only reason for trusting Snape was that he believed him about his remorse then it seems to be a pretty major lapse of judgement.

A good book, this one. I really enjoyed it. A much better job than Order of the Phoenix, which I didn't take to at all on the first reading (it was better second time around).

But I think this one really broke the mould. I'm looking forward very much to the next one, now. I think it's going to be a very different sort of story again.

Originally posted by Piscivore

Sirius' brother:


Ah!

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by Piscivore
Sirius' brother:


(courtesy HP Lexicon)

D'oh! How could I be so blind? (slaps forehead).

That's too specific to be a red herring. And Harry really needs a new father-figure. Enter Regulus.

The loose ends are being tied up already! Thanks Piscivore.

So did everyone know that and I was just being dumb?

TragicMonkey,

"I also noticed that they learn magic and absolutely nothing else. Not English, not literature, not art, not music, not health...nothing but magic."

Those things are Muggle subjects. That's why everyone is so ignorant of the 'real' world (think of the letter covered in stamps). Why learn health when you can mend a broken nose with a wand?

Although that does beg the question, how do any mixed-blood relationships ever get off the ground?

Muggle: "Let's make a baby!"
Witch: "OK! Abracadabra..."

[richardm]

Originally posted by Tricky
Well, it could fit, especially since you have to kill someone to make a Horcrux (in this case, Harry's mother).

Dumbledore believed that Voldemort wanted really significant things to be associated with his horcruxes - so things like the diary that confirmed him as Slytherin's heir, the things from the founders, and all that. Dumbledore reckoned that killing Harry was the death that he would use to make his sixth and final Horcrux (very significant on account of the prophecy).

So all the spells to make the Horcrux would presumably be in place and ready to go; it seems quite possible that since his mother got the the killing spell by mistake, that the Horcruxification spell could go similarly awry.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by richardm
I have to say that if Dumbledore's only reason for trusting Snape was that he believed him about his remorse then it seems to be a pretty major lapse of judgement.


IF Snape is still working for the OP, and if he and Dumbledore did in fact have this eventuality as a contingency plan- and I'm persuaded that this is the case, that D asked Snape to do it because Snape told him about the Vow before hand, on the tower D's death, surrounded by DEs, plus his severly weakend condition made it inevitable, and it was better to spare Malfoy the deed- My guess is that D's faith in snape was not because of his "remorse" as Harry believes, but that possible Snape is the one that clued D into the fact that V was talking about/using horcruxi in the first place.

However, the possibility remains that Snape is just full-on badguy. There is D's assertion that his mistakes will be "big ones." I don't think it is the case though.

Either way, I think D knew his race was almost over anyway, given most of his conversations over the last three books. I was not at all surprised he snuffed it this time- I thought it would have been him last time.


ETA: I think the horcruxi are going to be things we've seen already. I wouldn't be surprised at all if something Mundy stole isn't one of them- perhaps even the goblet Harry caught him with. I don't think people qualify as a horcrux.

And Ginny Weasly is the best character in the books. She has more balls than every other character put together, and not in the Morgan Webb way.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Piscivore
ETA: I think the horcruxi are going to be things we've seen already. I wouldn't be surprised at all if something Mundy stole isn't one of them- perhaps even the goblet Harry caught him with. I don't think people qualify as a horcrux.


I reckon most of the horcruxi (horcruxes?) will turn out to be at Grimmauld place. D. says by the way that animals can be used as horcruxi, although it's not usually a good idea, so the idea that a person could be used as one is not completely left-field.


And Ginny Weasly is the best character in the books. She has more balls than every other character put together, and not in the Morgan Webb way.

Agreed!

Don't pretend you know anything about Quidditch, you'll only embarrass yourself


:D

[Smike]

Originally posted by richardm
Don't pretend you know anything about Quidditch, you'll only embarrass yourself

Seeing as you mentioned Quidditch, can I just say that out of the various minor flaws and falacies in the series, the game of Quidditch is by far the silliest.


How can that game work? There don't even seem to be any specific rules.

Some problems:

Better brooms give your team a huge advantage.
Vast amounts of luck due to the Snitch.
How do you tackle someone?
At what distance can you shoot?
Are you allowed to block or hit people? (see also: how do you tackle?)

If you're going to create a good game, a certain amount of thought should go into it.

[Ipecac]

I didn't buy Dumbledore's death. It seemed staged and the things he says to Draco just before the Death Eaters arrive seem to anticipate that they've got some fake death scenarios on tap.

They've built Dumbledore up to be so powerful, I can't believe that Draco could outdraw him or that Snape could kill him. Do we really believe that Dumbledore needs his wand to use magic? None of the death scene felt real to me. If it turns out that it was real, then it was a major misstep, I think.

Interesting thoughts about Harry being the Horcrux and Regulus being the "R.A.B." Hadn't occurred to me but but seem possible. Would JKR put in such an obvious clue if it was Regulus, though?

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Ipecac
They've built Dumbledore up to be so powerful, I can't believe that Draco could outdraw him or that Snape could kill him. Do we really believe that Dumbledore needs his wand to use magic?

He wasn't exactly in the best of shape by then, though. He was weak and tired, his wand arm was crispified, and he'd just had to drink whatever that stuff was. I didn't have trouble believing that he didn't have enough energy left to fight off Malfoy. I mean, he could barely walk.

Jeremy

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Piscivore
Sirius' brother:


(courtesy HP Lexicon)

That got an audible gasp from me.

OH. SNAP.

Regulus FTW.

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by toddjh
He wasn't exactly in the best of shape by then, though. He was weak and tired, his wand arm was crispified, and he'd just had to drink whatever that stuff was. I didn't have trouble believing that he didn't have enough energy left to fight off Malfoy. I mean, he could barely walk.

Jeremy

Perhaps, but then why immobilize Harry? Harry has shown he can hold his own in a fight. There was no reason for Dumbledore to put Harry into that position except for him to be a witness to the events that Dumbledore knew were going to transpire.

You'd also have to accept that Dumbledore was completely wrong about Snape. JKR made a huge point throughout the book that Dumbledore trusts Snape. I don't believe that it will end up that Dumbledore was completely wrong.

I was a bit confused about what the Death Eaters were there to do. Was it really to assassinate Dumbledore? Why would they think they'd have the slightest chance of success doing that?

[TragicMonkey]

If Dumbledore were as sneaky and devious as a certain monkey we won't name, he would have gone through with the "death" scene in order to a) totally convince Voldemort that Snape can be trusted, b) spare the tender innocent young 'un (yeah, right) from doing a murder under duress, and c) get himself accounted for so he could move around freely causing trouble for V while everyone else thinks he's dead. An added benefit would be that it would inspire the lackluster feebs of his minions to get off their butts and do something rather than wait for him to do it for them.

Because if I were Dumbledore, I'd have a Horcrux of my own keeping me immortal. Sometimes good people have to do bad things, after all. Which would be an excellent moral lesson for Harry Potter in the last book.

Or another possibility, depending on how tricky Dumbledore really is, is that he and Snape switched places using Polyjuice Potion, and it was Dumbledore who killed Snape. Probably not, but it would have been hilariously cruel to put everyone through that.


eta: Wait up, just occurred to me. Dumbledore had the Philosopher's Stone in his possession for a whole school year. He said he wouldn't want to live forever, but what if he made some Elixir of Immortality to buy a bit of time? The stone was strong enough to give Voldy a body, supposedly, so surely it could revive a corpse, or if taken beforehand, vaccinate against a death spell.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Perhaps, but then why immobilize Harry? Harry has shown he can hold his own in a fight. There was no reason for Dumbledore to put Harry into that position except for him to be a witness to the events that Dumbledore knew were going to transpire.

I agree he knew the situation was hopeless. Dumbledore immobilized Harry because he knew that Harry would fight to the death to try to protect him. Dumbledore couldn't let that happen -- Harry's survival and escape were absolutely critical.

You'd also have to accept that Dumbledore was completely wrong about Snape. JKR made a huge point throughout the book that Dumbledore trusts Snape. I don't believe that it will end up that Dumbledore was completely wrong.

I agree that there was more going on in this scene than we know. Dumbledore was obviously nearing the end of his life; Rowling has been playing up that angle for a few books now. I think he and Snape had made an agreement that Snape would continue to maintain his charade of being a triple-agent even if it meant he had to kill Dumbledore -- Dumbledore believed that keeping somebody in Voldemort's inner circle was more important than the life of an old man who was living on borrowed time as it was. After all, it's obviously Harry, not Dumbledore, who's going to have to do the dirty work. There's only so much that Dumbledore, in his old age and already targeted for death, could do to help Harry at the end...but Snape, pretending to be Voldemort's faithful servant, might be able to turn the tables at a critical moment.

I was a bit confused about what the Death Eaters were there to do. Was it really to assassinate Dumbledore? Why would they think they'd have the slightest chance of success doing that?

It does seem like it might have been better planning if they'd chosen a night for their assassination attempt when they were sure Dumbledore was actually there. :)

Jeremy

[TjW]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
D'oh! How could I be so blind? (slaps forehead).

That's too specific to be a red herring. And Harry really needs a new father-figure. Enter Regulus.

I agree he probably switched it, but Harry's already got two dead father-figures. Three, if Dumbledore is really dead. Unlikely, since then they could have consulted his Headmaster portrait to find out what he wanted them to do.

If Regulus did switch the Horcrux, will the note he wrote have any effect on Kreacher's attitude? Or is Kreacher recognizing the handwriting just how they'll discover whodunnit?

Wormtail will commit some critical act of omission that winds up protecting Harry in the next book.

Oh, and Snape is not really on Voldemort's side, because he loved Lily.
Thus his hatred for James Potter, who married her, and Harry, who not only looks like his father, but was the reason Lily sacrificed herself.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by toddjh
Dumbledore believed that keeping somebody in Voldemort's inner circle was more important than the life of an old man who was living on borrowed time as it was. After all, it's obviously Harry, not Dumbledore, who's going to have to do the dirty work. There's only so much that Dumbledore, in his old age and already targeted for death, could do to help Harry at the end...but Snape, pretending to be Voldemort's faithful servant, might be able to turn the tables at a critical moment.



I agree with you about the importance of keeping Snape alive, but the more I think about it, the more I wonder if Dumbledore actually did destroy the Philosopher's Stone. At the end of the first book, he knew that V was alive, and he suspected Horcruxes were involved, which would make V immortal. Since Dumbledore knew himself to be the only real threat to V (until Harry grows up or something), what would be more sensible than to prolong his own life until V could be defeated? Dumbledore might be too high-minded to seek immortality for it's own sake, but how about seeking it to achieve a worthy goal? In fact, it might be unethical not to, seeing how weak everyone else was. It was Dumbledore's duty to remain alive to fight Voldemort.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by toddjh
It does seem like it might have been better planning if they'd chosen a night for their assassination attempt when they were sure Dumbledore was actually there. :)

Jeremy

Malfoy explained that his spy informed him D was in Hogsmead. Malfoy didn't really have any reason to think he'd have gone elsewhere, so he got his henchmen in and set the Dark Mark as a lure. Which Harry and D flocked to, as intended. Sounds like Malfoy's play went as scripted.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by TjW
Oh, and Snape is not really on Voldemort's side, because he loved Lily.
Thus his hatred for James Potter, who married her, and Harry, who not only looks like his father, but was the reason Lily sacrificed herself.

Not to mention his guilt and self-loathing (projected onto Harry) for inadvertantly getting her killed.

I have to say that I admire the sense of continuity in the books. It's not too hard to believe that Rowling actually did have the essentials of the entire story sketched out. There's very little feeling of "retconning" (some, but not much), and the details from previous books seem to flow toward the resolution well.

Jeremy

[Jas]

I don't think that the Regulus thing is too obvious, in that people overlook stuff all the time.

The thought of Harry as a Horcrux definitly crossed my mind, but, then why would Voldemort keep trying to kill him (unless he doesn't know, as someone brought up). Also, didn't they same that it kind of messes up your mind to be used as a Horcrux?

As far as Dumbledore/Snape, there's definitely something else there.

I think Draco is going to 'see the light', as it were. We already see that happening, obviously, but I think part of it will be the realization that for him to kill Dumbledore was an almost impossible task...maybe that'll have something to do with it?

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by TjW
Wormtail will commit some critical act of omission that winds up protecting Harry in the next book.

Hmm. Wormy got his new, shiny hand from V right after V killed Diggory...

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by Piscivore
Malfoy explained that his spy informed him D was in Hogsmead. Malfoy didn't really have any reason to think he'd have gone elsewhere, so he got his henchmen in and set the Dark Mark as a lure. Which Harry and D flocked to, as intended. Sounds like Malfoy's play went as scripted.

I agree that this is what was intended, but WHY would they think it had the least chance of success when Voldemort himself couldn't destroy Dumbledore in the last book? It's a silly mission to even attempt and (assuming that everything is as it seems) they couldn't possibly have known or even hoped that Dumbledore would be in such a weakened state.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Piscivore
Hmm. Wormy got his new, shiny hand from V right after V killed Diggory...

You think Wormtail's hand is the last Horcrux? I can't see V trusting such a snivelling idiot with such a thing. Although he might view Wormtail as the ultimate survivor, in that he'll run away rather than fight to the death...hmmm. Maybe not a bad choice after all.

But while it might be a clever choice, can you see V willing to have part of his soul attached to Wormtail? He was grandiose enough to require historical jewelry for his other Horcruxes. Would he really let Wormtail have one, knowing he's going to scratch his ass with it?

[Ipecac]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
If Dumbledore were as sneaky and devious as a certain monkey we won't name, he would have gone through with the "death" scene in order to a) totally convince Voldemort that Snape can be trusted, b) spare the tender innocent young 'un (yeah, right) from doing a murder under duress, and c) get himself accounted for so he could move around freely causing trouble for V while everyone else thinks he's dead. An added benefit would be that it would inspire the lackluster feebs of his minions to get off their butts and do something rather than wait for him to do it for them.

Because if I were Dumbledore, I'd have a Horcrux of my own keeping me immortal. Sometimes good people have to do bad things, after all. Which would be an excellent moral lesson for Harry Potter in the last book.


My thoughts exactly.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Ipecac
I agree that this is what was intended, but WHY would they think it had the least chance of success when Voldemort himself couldn't destroy Dumbledore in the last book? It's a silly mission to even attempt and (assuming that everything is as it seems) they couldn't possibly have known or even hoped that Dumbledore would be in such a weakened state.

Well, it was pretty much an open secret that V was just going to let Draco snuff it in the attempt, as punishment for his father's (rule 8)-ups. If he had succeeded, so much the better, but it wasn't the point really.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
You think Wormtail's hand is the last Horcrux? I can't see V trusting such a snivelling idiot with such a thing. Although he might view Wormtail as the ultimate survivor, in that he'll run away rather than fight to the death...hmmm. Maybe not a bad choice after all.

But while it might be a clever choice, can you see V willing to have part of his soul attached to Wormtail? He was grandiose enough to require historical jewelry for his other Horcruxes. Would he really let Wormtail have one, knowing he's going to scratch his ass with it?

Heh. I think it was desperation, if this is indeed the case. I think V was fixated on this "seven" business. I wondered at the end of GoF, why he'd make an artificial hand that was so... obvious. They can grow back bones, I thought- why not a hand?

This might explain it.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Piscivore
Heh. I think it was desperation, if this is indeed the case. I think V was fixated on this "seven" business. I wondered at the end of GoF, why he'd make an artificial hand that was so... obvious. They can grow back bones, I thought- why not a hand?

This might explain it.

Yes, but ewwwww! If I were Voldemort, I'd never have done that. And if I had to do that, I'd load Wormtail up with so many Imperius Curse commands....starting with not letting him pick his nose with it. Can you imagine how uncomfortable it would be, living with the Dark Lord's soul as your hand? "Wormtail, what's that noise? Are you masturbating with my soul!?!?!?!?!?!?" "Are you actually cleaning the cat's box with my soul?!?!?!?!?!?" "Did you just flip me the bird with my soul?!?!?!?!?!?"

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Yes, but ewwwww! If I were Voldemort, I'd never have done that. And if I had to do that, I'd load Wormtail up with so many Imperius Curse commands....starting with not letting him pick his nose with it. Can you imagine how uncomfortable it would be, living with the Dark Lord's soul as your hand? "Wormtail, what's that noise? Are you masturbating with my soul!?!?!?!?!?!?" "Are you actually cleaning the cat's box with my soul?!?!?!?!?!?" "Did you just flip me the bird with my soul?!?!?!?!?!?"

I'm already seeing the sitcom potential. :D

Yeah, I'm betting if there is a horcrux there, there's some ground rules programmed in.


He're's a question: is Ginny the hard-as-nails girl she is BECAUSE of her exposure to Voldy's Horcrux, or in spite of? She does seem pretty eager to hex people, and unrepentant after.

[toddjh]

Also, isn't "horcrux" the most awful word ever?

Jeremy

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by toddjh
Also, isn't "horcrux" the most awful word ever?

Jeremy

Yeah, sounds like religious jewellry worn by a prostitute.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Piscivore
Hmm. Wormy got his new, shiny hand from V right after V killed Diggory...

But Wormy is also in debt to Harry still isn't he? Harry made Sirius and Lupin spare him in Azkaban.

I'm wondering if I should make that whole "my soul" bit a sig out of goodness, but it's too spoilery.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by toddjh
Also, isn't "horcrux" the most awful word ever?


I started laughing when it first cropped up. Voldemort, in his awkward adolescence, asking his mentor about horcruxes. I thought it was going to be one of those "facts of life" discussions followed by Slughorn taking young Voldy to Hogsmeade for his first hooker. And that's what made Voldemort evil--she laughed, and made his first sexual experience shameful and humiliating.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
But Wormy is also in debt to Harry still isn't he? Harry made Sirius and Lupin spare him in Azkaban.

That didn't seem to bother him overmuch in GoF. I'm not thinking "personal honour" is big on Petey's list of priorities.

Originally posted by LostAngeles
I'm wondering if I should make that whole "my soul" bit a sig out of goodness, but it's too spoilery.

I was going to nominate it for the Language award, but held off for the same reason.

Of course, anyone who hasn't read it yet is a plonker anyway. *looks around suspiciously*

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I started laughing when it first cropped up. Voldemort, in his awkward adolescence, asking his mentor about horcruxes. I thought it was going to be one of those "facts of life" discussions followed by Slughorn taking young Voldy to Hogsmeade for his first hooker. And that's what made Voldemort evil--she laughed, and made his first sexual experience shameful and humiliating.

"So, Tommy, I guess the "Riddle" is... where's your penis?"

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Piscivore
"So, Tommy, I guess the "Riddle" is... where's your penis?"

Wizards call it "the wand".

And when wizards are bad, they get their wand broken in two.

[toddjh]

Okay, maybe this has been addressed here before, but it's been bugging me for years.

Being a wizard obviously confers certain survival advantages, right?

And we are told that muggle-born and half-blood wizards are very common. However, we are told it's very unusual for a witch and wizard to give birth to a squib.

So why haven't wizards completely taken over the planet by now? Not only are they better able to survive, but they even seem to have the reproductive advantage. And, judging from the Weasleys, they don't seem to have any particular difficulty having children.

Why are there any muggles left at all?

Oh, I suppose it's possible that they've continually faced persecution from the muggle establishment, keeping their numbers small, but I find it hard to believe that could continue for thousands of years -- magic is just too useful a tool; they would've gotten the upper hand somewhere, sooner or later.

Another possibility, I suppose, would be some kind of plague that only affects magical people. However, we don't hear anything about that in the books.

Is there any way to sew shut this plot hole? :)

Jeremy

[Piscivore]

I'm totally wrong about the arm- Wormtail killed Cedric, not V.

Heh, good point, Jeremy

[Tricky]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Because if I were Dumbledore, I'd have a Horcrux of my own keeping me immortal. Sometimes good people have to do bad things, after all. Which would be an excellent moral lesson for Harry Potter in the last book.
Highly unlikely. Dumble is a good guy, and good guys don't murder no matter how "noble" the cause.

I still stick by my prediction that Dumbledore will communicate through the painting in the headmaster's office and give Harry the info he needs.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Tricky
I still stick by my prediction that Dumbledore will communicate through the painting in the headmaster's office and give Harry the info he needs.

Those paintings creep me out. Are they alive, or not? Kinda takes away the impact of Dumbledore's death if you can go up and have a nice little chat with him right after the funeral...

Jeremy

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by toddjh
Those paintings creep me out. Are they alive, or not? Kinda takes away the impact of Dumbledore's death if you can go up and have a nice little chat with him right after the funeral...

Jeremy

I've been wondering why Harry hasn't busted out a picture of Sirius Black from those old newspapers, myself.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Tricky
Highly unlikely. Dumble is a good guy, and good guys don't murder no matter how "noble" the cause.

I still stick by my prediction that Dumbledore will communicate through the painting in the headmaster's office and give Harry the info he needs.

Was Dumbledore always good? It would explain his familiarity with the dark arts if he used to be bad himself.

And I've changed my theory, anyway. I think Dumbledore kept the Philosopher's Stone. That would be less evil than making a Horcrux.

Although mightn't a good person be tempted to put out of their misery someone who's been de-souled by a dementor? And if you're going to euthanize someone, why not get some use out of the act?

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by toddjh
Okay, maybe this has been addressed here before, but it's been bugging me for years.

Being a wizard obviously confers certain survival advantages, right?

And we are told that muggle-born and half-blood wizards are very common. However, we are told it's very unusual for a witch and wizard to give birth to a squib.

So why haven't wizards completely taken over the planet by now? Not only are they better able to survive, but they even seem to have the reproductive advantage. And, judging from the Weasleys, they don't seem to have any particular difficulty having children.

Why are there any muggles left at all?


Jeremy

It's a symbiotic circle thingy, like the Jedi and the Midichlorians...

...yeah, you're right, it is stupid.

[UserGoogol]

Well, magic in humans seems to be something of a difficult power to regulate. If you're not well trained in magic, you might accidentally misuse it to your disadvantage.Thus, until humans had the intelligence to control it, magic may very well have been a negative trait, at least for humans.

And once humans gained the intelligence to control it, they also gained the ability to say stuff "don't breed with those muggles" or even actively prevent muggles from trying to use it. (I believe that muggles would at least be able to use potions or something if it wasn't for the whole veil of secrecy.)

[Donks]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
Was Dumbledore always good? It would explain his familiarity with the dark arts if he used to be bad himself.

And I've changed my theory, anyway. I think Dumbledore kept the Philosopher's Stone. That would be less evil than making a Horcrux.

Although mightn't a good person be tempted to put out of their misery someone who's been de-souled by a dementor? And if you're going to euthanize someone, why not get some use out of the act?
I doubt Dumbledore ever made a horcrux, if for no other reason that he wouldn't split his soul.

The book kinda ticked me off, it was the first time that the whole Scooby Gang were nothing but dead weight. So far Potter had won in great part because of his friends. In this one he was the only one right about pretty much anything. He was only wrong about the HBP, and even if he had listened to Hermione and found out it was Snape, I doubt it would have mattered.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Smike
Seeing as you mentioned Quidditch, can I just say that out of the various minor flaws and falacies in the series, the game of Quidditch is by far the silliest.


How can that game work? There don't even seem to be any specific rules.

Some problems:

Better brooms give your team a huge advantage.
Vast amounts of luck due to the Snitch.
How do you tackle someone?
At what distance can you shoot?
Are you allowed to block or hit people? (see also: how do you tackle?)

If you're going to create a good game, a certain amount of thought should go into it.

Uh, I have always hated Quidditch. It reeks of rules made by someone who has never followed a sport.
*Why are goals worth 10 point?
*Why is catching the snitch worth 150?
*Why does anyone bother scoring goals, just get more people looking for the snitch and be done with it.
*Why is there only one goalie? He has no special equipment like in ice hockey, or special rules, like in soccer.

If it were a real sport, the games would be end up with the beaters acting as extra goal keepers and the chasers looking for the snitch, ready to tell the seeker where it is. Every once in a while a chaser might try to score a goal, just to prevent the other team's defense from all going in search of the snitch.

[LostAngeles]

It occurs to me that there's likely to be a phoenix taking up residence at 12 Gimmaud Place.

And that the tradition of a DADA instructor not lasting a year in the position has continued.

Oh and as to the snitch, see the World Cup match from Goblet of Fire. Krum caught the snitch, but Bulgaria still lost.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by toddjh
Those paintings creep me out. Are they alive, or not? Kinda takes away the impact of Dumbledore's death if you can go up and have a nice little chat with him right after the funeral...

Jeremy


FWIW, my understanding of the paintings is that the contain nothing more than a sort of impression of the personality of the depicted person. So talking to the "Dumbledore" portrait would get you some nice pleasantries, an occasional memory, a little bit of the wit, but all only superficial. Most of the really deep-seated knowledge and wisdom would be absent. Consider the Fat Lady- she can't have much of a memory or she'd be cross every time she saw Harry for what Sirius had done to her trying to get to him.

[Donks]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Oh and as to the snitch, see the World Cup match from Goblet of Fire. Krum caught the snitch, but Bulgaria still lost.
My point wasn't that J. K. Rowling can't make up a Quidditch match where the snitch doesn't matter, of course she can. She could also write a basketball game that finishes 1,000 to 0. My point was that it makes no sense to play the game as she writes them, based on the rules.

[TjW]

Originally posted by Piscivore
I'm already seeing the sitcom potential. :D
(snip)
He're's a question: is Ginny the hard-as-nails girl she is BECAUSE of her exposure to Voldy's Horcrux, or in spite of? She does seem pretty eager to hex people, and unrepentant after.

No, I'd say having older brothers, two of whom are Fred and George would explain that adequately.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by Donks
My point wasn't that J. K. Rowling can't make up a Quidditch match where the snitch doesn't matter, of course she can. She could also write a basketball game that finishes 1,000 to 0. My point was that it makes no sense to play the game as she writes them, based on the rules.

I agree with this sentiment, and I sped-read the Quidditch bits in The Artist Formerly Known as Snape (sorry, couldn't resist) as a result. I'm not a sports fan, so am no expert, but the whole match up until the golden snitch seems rather redundant. It makes me feel a bit like a penalty shoot out in football/soccer, what was the point of the preceding 90 minutes of huffing and puffing?

Freudian interpretation of Golden Snitch: not-too-subtle euphimism for snatch, meaning the female genitalia; golden meaning colour of pubic hair, therefore golden snitch = Ginny Weasley's virginity, the REAL prize of Harry's captaincy.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
I agree with this sentiment, and I sped-read the Quidditch bits in The Artist Formerly Known as Snape (sorry, couldn't resist) as a result. I'm not a sports fan, so am no expert, but the whole match up until the golden snitch seems rather redundant. It makes me feel a bit like a penalty shoot out in football/soccer, what was the point of the preceding 90 minutes of huffing and puffing?

I also agree. A long time ago, I saw a description I liked that Quidditch is like basketball, except they don't bother to keep score because the outcome is decided by a game of tiddlywinks taking place on the sidelines.

Freudian interpretation of Golden Snitch: not-too-subtle euphimism for snatch, meaning the female genitalia; golden meaning colour of pubic hair, therefore golden snitch = Ginny Weasley's virginity, the REAL prize of Harry's captaincy.

Oh please. He's a little late for that -- is there a Gryffindor boy she hasn't "gone out" with?

Jeremy

[Tricky]

Originally posted by toddjh Oh please. He's a little late for that -- is there a Gryffindor boy she hasn't "gone out" with?

Are you suggesting that Ginny might be a "ho"-crux?

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Tricky
Are you suggesting that Ginny might be a "ho"-crux?

It's not serious. She learned all about birth control from her mother. The woman with seven kids.

Next book: Voldemort ambushes Harry as he visits his baby's mama in the magical trailer park.

[Jas]

Originally posted by toddjh
Being a wizard obviously confers certain survival advantages, right?

And we are told that muggle-born and half-blood wizards are very common. However, we are told it's very unusual for a witch and wizard to give birth to a squib.

So why haven't wizards completely taken over the planet by now? Not only are they better able to survive, but they even seem to have the reproductive advantage. And, judging from the Weasleys, they don't seem to have any particular difficulty having children.


Maybe with magic they have had birth control for longer, and possibly women have played a larger role in their society?

Look at Canada, for example. One would think that we would have a survival advantage, when you look at technology, healthcare, and the welfare state, yet we have a negative birth rate, especially compared with many 3rd world countries.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
[B]If Dumbledore were as sneaky and devious as a certain monkey we won't name, he would have gone through with the "death" scene in order to a) totally convince Voldemort that Snape can be trusted, b) spare the tender innocent young 'un (yeah, right) from doing a murder under duress, and c) get himself accounted for so he could move around freely causing trouble for V while everyone else thinks he's dead. An added benefit would be that it would inspire the lackluster feebs of his minions to get off their butts and do something rather than wait for him to do it for them.

Because if I were Dumbledore, I'd have a Horcrux of my own keeping me immortal. Sometimes good people have to do bad things, after all. Which would be an excellent moral lesson for Harry Potter in the last book.

I also think it's sth along those lines, TM.

Dumbledore has empowered Harry, making him believe he's strong, smart, capable when he was extremely frightened. I do not doubt that he let himself be "killed" in order to make Harry believe he's alone in his quest. D knows that, in the very end, the battle will be against H and a much stronger Voldemort. He knows he can help, but not until the very end, so he's preparing H for that.

I love it how, at the end of Book 6, no one can know for sure whether Snape is good or bad! Because, at this point, he is bad. But is he? As a double-agent, we really do not know. Plus, D trusted him completely, trusted Snape to be alone with Harry. Would he ever allow H around someone he did not trust? I doubt it.


eta: Wait up, just occurred to me. Dumbledore had the Philosopher's Stone in his possession for a whole school year. He said he wouldn't want to live forever, but what if he made some Elixir of Immortality to buy a bit of time? The stone was strong enough to give Voldy a body, supposedly, so surely it could revive a corpse, or if taken beforehand, vaccinate against a death spell.

That, too! Horcrux, Philosopher's Stone... these are ways to cheat death. The Phoenix was singing, what did that mean? There are many ways to justify D' non-death.

[Ipecac]

I'm rethinking my position on Dumbledore's death.

This guy Link (http://www.livejournal.com/users/synaesthete7/169704.html#cutid1) makes some excellent points. This is very intriguing.

[Luciana]

Dumbledore was adamant that Harry SHOULD obey him and force him to drink the liquid even if he begged not to. With much suffering, Harry carried on his request, even in the face of unspeakable pain. He trusted D and did what he was told to.

Along the same lines, Snape would have carried out D's request to kill him no matter what. However, D cannot be really dead, as that would make Snape a murderer and thus persecuted by the Ministry of Magic. His death, therefore, would have to be fake, a way to increase Snape's status as a Death Eater and allow D to continue looking for the Horcruxes with less worry.

[Donks]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Along the same lines, Snape would have carried out D's request to kill him no matter what. However, D cannot be really dead, as that would make Snape a murderer and thus persecuted by the Ministry of Magic. His death, therefore, would have to be fake, a way to increase Snape's status as a Death Eater and allow D to continue looking for the Horcruxes with less worry.
I don't buy that. Harry spent book 5 being an unbelievable prick because Dumbledore wouldn't as much as look at him. Dumbledore couldn't risk Harry getting himself killed seeking revenge after seeing him die at the hands of Snape. He would have had to let him in on the plan.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by Donks
I don't buy that. Harry spent book 5 being an unbelievable prick because Dumbledore wouldn't as much as look at him. Dumbledore couldn't risk Harry getting himself killed seeking revenge after seeing him die at the hands of Snape. He would have had to let him in on the plan.

Not necessarily. No Death Eater is supposed to kill Harry - Snape said so, Harry is for Voldemort - so Harry CAN'T be killed during a revenge plot against Snape. The plan is that H and V must be face-to-face. Also, the prophecy links H and V, the Horcruxes are yet to be found... as much as H hates Snape now, he knows he must go after Voldemort, everybody else is small fish.

[Luciana]

Things I liked:

* Dumbledore's funeral. That was such a vivid scene. When, in 2018, we get to see the movie, I hope they make it justice.
* I loved the first chapter with the Prime Minister. In his shoes, would you have told the general public? :D
* How Ginny and Harry just naturally kissed, in a moment of great happiness, in front of everybody. It felt so right. Plus, it saved some 10 pages.
* The succinctness. Even with 600 pages, the book told more than the last with 800 pages.

Things that were expected:
* McGonagall as Headmistress. Entirely obvious. I do not doubt she will be a mother figure to Harry, she has a soft spot for him after all.
* Harry/Ginny, Hermione/Ron.
* Dumbledore's death. It is obvious that Harry must face Voldemort "alone". With Dumbledore it would be much easier. Plus, the tragic hero must lose loved ones.

Things not expected:
* The Half-Blood Prince. It doesn't sound right, btw, because Snape should despise the "half-blood" part, I can't see how he could call himself that. But it caught me totally unaware. Maybe if I had read slower... but I was moving fast, didn't have time to really think!

Now that the series is so famous, apparently JK is making the point that everybody needs to study, and that Harry and Ron should not depend on Hermione forever. In the first two books those boys got a free ride!! In the past studying was the last of their priorities.

I didn't understand how Snape could be half-blood and still be Head of Slytherin.That he's a half-blood is common knowledge, because Hermione found the info in newspapers. Snape's dad was a Muggle! Voldemort himself is half-blood, but he's a great wizard. Would parents of Slytherins be so forgiving regarding a professor?

Peeve: I don't see why Luna is so loved. She's a major conspiracy theorist, big time woo-woo!!!

[specious_reasons]

I knew I'd find a Harry Potter thread here. Hi Luciana!

I think the Big D bit it, but she leaves the option of hope open. Let me refer you to this, (Page 591-592 in my book, where Draco had Dumbledore cornered):

"He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you died in your attempt to kill me - forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. [...]"

It's possible that this was a big setup by Dumbledore, much like he's describing to Draco. Possible, but Snape must fulfill the mission if Draco can't (by his oath), and Draco's mission is to kill Dumbledore. I'm not sure he can get away with sort of killing him...

I'm not convinced Snape has entirely gone over to Voldemort, Snape has always been playing both sides, and I think he still is, but man, if this wasn't planned, he's screwed. The only person who might stump for him is dead.

And the duel with Snape at the end was interesting - what Snape says are the skills Harry needs to learn if he's going to fight Voldemort. Can't think that's a coincidence.

And yes, I felt something for Draco, too. I felt for him a bit after meeting his father in the 2nd book. It's interesting he chose to confide in Moaning Myrtle - an act of desperation, it seems.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Peeve: I don't see why Luna is so loved. She's a major conspiracy theorist, big time woo-woo!!!

Because she doesn't waste her time doing what most kids that age do--blend in and be like everyone else.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
* The Half-Blood Prince. It doesn't sound right, btw, because Snape should despise the "half-blood" part, I can't see how he could call himself that. But it caught me totally unaware. Maybe if I had read slower... but I was moving fast, didn't have time to really think!

I think he was trying to play up the Prince (magic) half of his bloodline, i.e. he's not really a Snape, he's half Prince. Just like Voldemort, he's trying to distance himself from his muggle father's name.

What I want to know is, why didn't Harry/Ron/Hermione recognize his handwriting? Surely he's been writing on chalkboards and marking up their essays for years?

I didn't understand how Snape could be half-blood and still be Head of Slytherin.That he's a half-blood is common knowledge, because Hermione found the info in newspapers. Snape's dad was a Muggle! Voldemort himself is half-blood, but he's a great wizard. Would parents of Slytherins be so forgiving regarding a professor?

Yeah, this confused me too. Rowling backpedaled a little bit in this one and said that it wasn't half-bloods that Slytherins disliked, but just muggle-borns. I'm trying to remember any statements from earlier books that flatly contradict that, but at the very least it's clear that they like to keep things in the old magical families.

Maybe he was so popular with Slytherins that nobody bothered to check his background too deeply?

Jeremy

[RSLancastr]

Well, just finished it.

Here are some impressions.

1. Much better than the previous book, which I feel is the weakest one in the series so far.

2. Harry wasn't a whiny bitch in this one. In fact, I was hoping one of the other students would say "Hey Harry, you're not nearly the whiny bitch you were last year!"

3. My guess is that Harry himself is a Horcrux.

4. I seriously doubt that Dumbledore is really dead. I would bet that he and Snape faked his death so that Voldemort wouldn't know he is still alive. The utterly lame pointlessness of his death scene is one reason I believe this.

5. Way too much "snogging."

6. The whole "who is the Half-Blood Prince?" thing was also pointless, with the mystery being solved NOT via any clues that have been dropped, but by Hermione once again pulling some facts out of her ass. Oh well.

7. Once again, certain key mysteries were only mysteries as long as they were because Harry didn't mention them to Dumbledore. This has happened so many times in the series it is pathetic. Oh well.

Again, I enjoyed the book. Not great, but an enjoyable read.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
No, in a long ago thread about the identity of the half-blood prince someone did suggest Snape. I don't remember who and don't have the time to look for the thread right now. I should be cleaning the house, not reading the forums. That would be in this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42549).

In it, someone mentions Snape as a possibility, and I second it, proposing this theory:

That is my guess.

SPOILER THEORY AHEAD

I believe Snape is related to Harry on his mother's side. Perhaps even his mother's twin brother.

I had always thought the name Severus Snape to be a bit odd. Most other names in Rowling's universe are actual names (Harry, Neville, etc) or names from Greek mythology. So what kind of name is "Severus Snape?" My thought when reading the first book was that it was an anagram, but of what? Nothing sprang to mind, and I soon forgot all about it.

Recently I read on a web site that someone had noticed that it was an anagram for "Persues Evans". Lily Evans being Harry's Mom's maiden name, their theory was that he was "persuing" Lily. Well, "Persues" isn't spelled that way, and it occured to me that it was also an anagram for Perseus Evans.

Perseus is of course a name from Greek mythology, which is something Rowling has used before, and anagrtamns are also something she has used before (Tom Marvelo Riddle = Lord Voldemort).

So then, Snape would be related to Lily Evans. Either a brother, half-brother, or a cousin on her father's side seems most likely, since they are close enough in age to have both been at school together. Why the anagram? Perhaps, if he is a brother he was so ashamed of his half-blood heritage that he changed his name. Or perhaps he had to change it to become a spy within the Death-Eaters.

Also, since Rowling seems to use the names out of Greek Mythology when there is a direct parallel between her character and the Greek one, some research into the legend of Perseus might be in order. All I recall is that he slew the Gorgon. Regardless, he was most definitely a hero. So is Snape a hero?

Congratulating myself on my cool theory, I searched the web for "Perseus Evans", and found others had already come up with the name.

That's my theory, such as it is!

[richardm]

Originally posted by toddjh
What I want to know is, why didn't Harry/Ron/Hermione recognize his handwriting? Surely he's been writing on chalkboards and marking up their essays for years?


Well, your writing changes as you get older, I suppose. And certainly when I write on a blackboard it looks different to how I write on paper (dunno about the essays, mind).


Maybe he was so popular with Slytherins that nobody bothered to check his background too deeply?


I think this must be it, because blood does seem to be very important (although the point is made in one of the books that it's silly to treat it very seriously because there are virtually no pure-blood families left anyway).

However, Snape was (or is!) a Death Eater, so perhaps that trumps everything.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Tricky
Least interesting: The romance between Tonks and Lupin.


I'm re-reading at the moment, and it has occurred to me to wonder if we were supposed to think that Tonks might have gone to the Dark Side (as it were) - gloomy, different patronus that was "Weaker" than the old one, according to Snape, unable to meet Dumbledore's eyes, unable to transfigure... then, we were supposed to be all relieved that she was just lovesick. Instead of going "Eh?" (I thought Lupin was a metaphor for gay as well).

Ah, maybe not, it was just a thought!

[toddjh]

Originally posted by richardm
(I thought Lupin was a metaphor for gay as well).

I don't understand this criticism. If Lupin being a werewolf is a metaphor for being gay, then it shouldn't matter that he is literally straight. Or are you saying that you thought the character was actually gay, but that Rowling felt she couldn't mention that in a children's book, so she constructed the werewolf shell around it?

Jeremy

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by toddjh
so she constructed the werewolf shell around it? With a creamy gay center!

[richardm]

Originally posted by toddjh
I don't understand this criticism. If Lupin being a werewolf is a metaphor for being gay, then it shouldn't matter that he is literally straight. Or are you saying that you thought the character was actually gay, but that Rowling felt she couldn't mention that in a children's book, so she constructed the werewolf shell around it?


Well, in my mind's eye, Lupin was gay. So it was a bit of a surprise to me to find that he was, in fact, straight. The fault is all my own, taking the metaphor a bit literally perhaps. Lupin was "Not as other men", indeed.

Still, I think the fact that Tonks fancied Lupin came out of nowhere, as I read it, and it was the combination of "Not Gay" and "Tonks Fancies Him" which prompted the "Eh?", rather than anything else.

[Donks]

Originally posted by richardm
I'm re-reading at the moment, and it has occurred to me to wonder if we were supposed to think that Tonks might have gone to the Dark Side (as it were) - gloomy, different patronus that was "Weaker" than the old one, according to Snape, unable to meet Dumbledore's eyes, unable to transfigure... then, we were supposed to be all relieved that she was just lovesick. Instead of going "Eh?" (I thought Lupin was a metaphor for gay as well).

Ah, maybe not, it was just a thought!
While I never thought of Lupin as being gay, or even a metaphor for it (I'm way too dumb to pick up things like that), the thought did occur to me that Tonks might have gone over to the other side. When she bumped into Harry while he was outside the Room of Requirement I thought she might be standing guard there, and the seventh floor seems like an awful lot of stairs to climb unless you actually need to go up there.

[Tricky]

I really don't get the "werewolf is a metaphor for gay" thing either. What is the connection? If anything, werewolves should be metaphors for pre-menapausal females, what with turning into a raging beast once a month....

AYEEEE! Please don't hit me!

[Ipecac]

RichardM, I definitely considered for a bit that Tonks had turned to the dark side. Glad she didn't.

I don't believe for one second that Snape is a villain. It just doesn't fit how he's been portrayed over six books. Harry has been prejudiced against Snape from the start (perhaps justly so) and I don't see JKR letting Harry be right. I thought that even as Snape was fleeing the castle and defending himself against Harry, he was still trying to teach Harry something.

[MrMonty]

I don't see how this series can end the way I'd like it. What I find discouraging is that Harry hasn't really advanced magically the way I thought he would, especially in this book. With Lupin, Moody (Crouch Jr.), and then the D.A., I was picturing Harry becoming studious and powerful in magic as Snape apparently did with potions while in school. That hit a dead end in this book as it seems all the other students have caught up in hexing and defensive abilities while new, non verbal spells, has almost everyone perplexed. Then, you look at the foray into the cave and you see how very far Harry is from being as adept as Dumbledore in sensing, understanding, and using magic. How are we to believe that the other Horcruxes aren't as guarded as the locket was? If so, then how could Harry possibly be ready to find those and destroy them with a few months training? And training from whom? Remember, even Dumbledore was severely injured from the first Horcrux he destroyed. I just can't see how "realistically" JK can have Harry find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes and Voldemort without a bunch of "Deus ex machina".

I was also expecting a lot more from the Tonks situation.. Was that just to emphasize the whole "were the good guys because we have LOVE" theme? That's getting a little hokey too. Is Draco's mom's love for her son going to play a part in his journey to the light side?

For quite a while I was thinking Morfin must be more involved. What was keeping him from raping muggles, erasing their memory, having powerful half-blood children that he wasn't aware of? Could the story have been told without him, if so, then he may still be shown to have some signifigance.

It seems the Regulus A. Black thing is a little too obvious for JK... unless it just isn't that big of a plot point. Maybe just that he stole it, didn't get a chance to destroy it, so it's hidden in his (now Harry's) house. I really don't think Regulus is alive and most definitely Rowling will not be introduing a new father figure in the last book.

I agree that Snape is on the good guys side. Dumbledore is dead. The whole death was planned in advance. Same way Dumbledore told Harry to do as told, Snape did the same.

If these Unbreakable Vows are so powerful, why not use them more often? Snape & Dumbledore with a vow that (after having a hand in Harry's mom's death whom Snape fancied) Snape would protect Harry or protect Harry if Dumbledore could not. Of course there has to be a witness (didn't Bellatrix need to be involved as a witness?) so there's someone who could vouch for all this and convince Harry. Maybe Dumbledore had a problem with the Unbreakable Vow, like that it's a forced thing and he'd rather people be good of their own volition. I guess it's almost Dark Magic since the person dies if they break the vow.

Monty

[Luciana]

I don't see how this series can end the way I'd like it. What I find discouraging is that Harry hasn't really advanced magically the way I thought he would, especially in this book. With Lupin, Moody (Crouch Jr.), and then the D.A., I was picturing Harry becoming studious and powerful in magic as Snape apparently did with potions while in school. That hit a dead end in this book as it seems all the other students have caught up in hexing and defensive abilities while new, non verbal spells, has almost everyone perplexed. Then, you look at the foray into the cave and you see how very far Harry is from being as adept as Dumbledore in sensing, understanding, and using magic. How are we to believe that the other Horcruxes aren't as guarded as the locket was? If so, then how could Harry possibly be ready to find those and destroy them with a few months training? And training from whom? Remember, even Dumbledore was severely injured from the first Horcrux he destroyed. I just can't see how "realistically" JK can have Harry find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes and Voldemort without a bunch of "Deus ex machina".

I felt that too. Harry is light-years behind Dumbledore as far as magic is concerned. So far, Harry has always had help to achieve whatever he did, which is understandable, as he was a boy. Will coming of age change anything? Is his "connection" to Voldemort make things easier for him?

I think I have understood why Dumbledore needed Lunghorns' memory so bad. He needed as much info as he could get regarding the Horcruxes, and he did get one special bit of info - 7 is a magical number. This is crucial information. Therefore, the memory wasn't only for Harry's sake.

Something else - is it my impression or there was some considerable blood in this book? If there's ever a book, how could they portray "Sectumsempra", with blood gurgling out of Draco's chest? Then there's Dumbledore cutting his own arm. Then Harry offers his own blood to the portal of the cave. That will be interesting to watch if the movies ever comes out.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Tricky
I really don't get the "werewolf is a metaphor for gay" thing either. What is the connection?

I really don't know. It was just a feeling that I had, and I haven't really analysed it very closely. Possibly it was some rather undefined thoughts I had when he was driven out of his teaching job by intolerant parents, something which might be analogous to the situation some gay teachers find themselves in. I'd have thought it was just my weird brain making odd connections, but it seems others think the same way. Perhaps they can explain it better than me.


Originally posted by MrMonty
It seems the Regulus A. Black thing is a little too obvious for JK... unless it just isn't that big of a plot point. Maybe just that he stole it, didn't get a chance to destroy it, so it's hidden in his (now Harry's) house. I really don't think Regulus is alive and most definitely Rowling will not be introduing a new father figure in the last book.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure Regulus is dead as advertised. The significance of it being his initials being that the majority of the remaining Horcruxes will already be collected and waiting at Grimmauld Place* - a convenient device, I think, since it hopefully means the last book won't be too repetitive, with Harry, Ron and Hermione trooping all over the place busting through enchantments to get the "next bit". 'Cos let's face it even Dumbledore was working hard to sort out those enchantments, and I can't see our current mob getting very far on their own. Considering what he knows he has to face in the future, Harry doesn't really apply himself to learning much.

*Assuming that Sirius didn't chuck them all out when he was tidying up. In which case the last book may be called "Harry Potter and the Landfill Site"

[richardm]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Something else - is it my impression or there was some considerable blood in this book? If there's ever a book, how could they portray "Sectumsempra", with blood gurgling out of Draco's chest?


Yeah, that took me by surprise!


Then there's Dumbledore cutting his own arm. Then Harry offers his own blood to the portal of the cave. That will be interesting to watch if the movies ever comes out.

Perhaps they'll duck the issue... Having said that, film-makers don't seem to mind gore too much, even in films aimed at quite young audiences.

[TjW]

Originally posted by MrMonty
I don't see how this series can end the way I'd like it. What I find discouraging is that Harry hasn't really advanced magically the way I thought he would, especially in this book. With Lupin, Moody (Crouch Jr.), and then the D.A., I was picturing Harry becoming studious and powerful in magic as Snape apparently did with potions while in school. That hit a dead end in this book as it seems all the other students have caught up in hexing and defensive abilities while new, non verbal spells, has almost everyone perplexed. Then, you look at the foray into the cave and you see how very far Harry is from being as adept as Dumbledore in sensing, understanding, and using magic. How are we to believe that the other Horcruxes aren't as guarded as the locket was? If so, then how could Harry possibly be ready to find those and destroy them with a few months training? And training from whom? Remember, even Dumbledore was severely injured from the first Horcrux he destroyed. I just can't see how "realistically" JK can have Harry find and destroy the remaining Horcruxes and Voldemort without a bunch of "Deus ex machina"
Kreacher. Remember all the mementoes he was hiding away when they were cleaning house in OotP? Any bets that the Horcrucii weren't among them?

.Originally posted by MrMonty
I was also expecting a lot more from the Tonks situation.. Was that just to emphasize the whole "were the good guys because we have LOVE" theme? That's getting a little hokey too. Is Draco's mom's love for her son going to play a part in his journey to the light side?
(snip)
[/B]
I don't know that the Malfoys will ever go to the light side, but it's already had an effect, if that's the way Snape found out about the plot re: Dumbledore.

And forthose who are thinking that Harry is the Gryffindor Horcrux, remember he wasn't in Gryffindor when his mother was killed. (Though it could turn out that he is the heir of Gryffindor, and that Voldemort knew this, somehow. )

As for Snape, a half-blood, being in Slytherin. It isn't the people in the various houses who determine who gets in, it's the Sorting Hat.
It's unlikely he'd have been a Death-Eater before he was in school.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by TjW
And forthose who are thinking that Harry is the Gryffindor Horcrux, remember he wasn't in Gryffindor when his mother was killed. (Though it could turn out that he is the heir of Gryffindor, and that Voldemort knew this, somehow. )


Houses tend to run in families.

But anyway, I think if Harry is a Horcrux it was pure accident, resulting from the pig's breakfast of a cursing that Voldemort hit him with.

The other Horcrux doesn't have to be anything historically significant. Voldemort would have wanted it to be, but you can't have everything. Especially when you're incompetent enough to get mauled by a baby.

I just don't see Voldemort willingly using any living thing as a Horcrux, because it would die and then where would he be? Immortality requires planning for the long run, not "hey! This snake is pretty cool!"

[Luciana]

Originally posted by TjW

As for Snape, a half-blood, being in Slytherin. It isn't the people in the various houses who determine who gets in, it's the Sorting Hat.
It's unlikely he'd have been a Death-Eater before he was in school.

Snape is a perfect Slytherin, and I can see the Sorting Hat placing him right there. And the position of Head is appointed by the Headmaster. Even then, I don't see how Slytherin students would accept a half-blood as their Head. Snape is his Muggle's father name! Easy to find he was not a pure blood. Well, I guess that, in the great scheme of things, it makes no difference whatsoever.

[TragicMonkey]

I think the whole "pure blood" stuff is mostly just talk. For those who are pure blood, they can brag about it. But they don't seem to be in a hurry to expose their mixed blood allies like Snape (or Voldemort himself). The Slytherins talk about other people's mixed blood, or "blood treachery", but not their own.

It's like people with money. Old money might talk about new money amongst themselves, but they won't sneer at new money when they're both dissing the poor.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey

I just don't see Voldemort willingly using any living thing as a Horcrux, because it would die and then where would he be? Immortality requires planning for the long run, not "hey! This snake is pretty cool!"

I still like the idea that the green liquid that Dumbledore drank would have been the Horcrux. To get rid of it, someone would have to drink and die. D would not offer it to anyone else, as that would have been murder, so he drank himself. Then he "died" in the hands of a Death Eater, Snape, only he's still alive...

Hmm... I know I have to make all the possible speculations right now, as in a month's time I will have forgotten everything but the main plot. :rolleyes:

Ron is very insecure, is always needing confidence boosts. That might be why he hasn't yet noticed Hermione right by his side. A rejection from her would hurt immensely! So I predict that in the next book he will do something extremely brave - then, only then, he can ask Hermione out.

Btw, any info when the fourth movie will come out? The last was a year ago. They'd better hurry or the kids will be middle-aged by the time they're finished...

[toddjh]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Btw, any info when the fourth movie will come out? The last was a year ago. They'd better hurry or the kids will be middle-aged by the time they're finished...

Looks like the next movie is out in Brazil on November 19. And we were just talking about the kids' ages at work this morning. There's no way they can finish all seven movies before the kids are 20. :eek:

Jeremy

[Odin]

Is it definite that Sirius is dead? I'm always suspicious about a characters death if there is no body.

Voldemort kidnapped the wand guy to build himself a super powered wand to fight Harry.

Snape is faking- Doesn't he actually save Harry from the other Death Eaters at the end? Though now Dumbledore is dead and everyone else thinks he's gone bad, he has no one to spy for.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Odin
Is it definite that Sirius is dead? I'm always suspicious about a characters death if there is no body.

Voldemort kidnapped the wand guy to build himself a super powered wand to fight Harry.

Snape is faking- Doesn't he actually save Harry from the other Death Eaters at the end? Though now Dumbledore is dead and everyone else thinks he's gone bad, he has no one to spy for.
Yes, I think Sirius is ded for the same reason I think Regulus is dead: Kreachur. Remember when Harry ordered Kreachur to do a task for him (watching the Room of Requirement). It appeared that Kreachur was magically compelled to do so, because he would have never done it for any other reason.

But I giggle every time I think of the "Room of Requirement". Sounds to me like a "necessary room" or bathroom. Would it appear if you had a bad case of diarrhea?

[corplinx]

My problem with this book is it telegraphed much of the next one regarding Snape.

1. Snape didn't know Draco's plan and was badgering him for it.
2. Snape didn't get summoned when the Death Eaters arrived, he had to be told.

Conlusion: He arrived on the scene and killed Dumbledore to keep Draco from losing whatever childhood and purity he has left. Dumbledore was a goner whether Draco or one of the other Death Eaters finished him. Snape cemented his standing as a DE with this act. In the next book this will all be revealed.

1. Dumbledore states the greatest power of all is love.
2. Dumbledore trusts Snape for some reason.
3. Snape only tried to be a double (or triple) agent after he learned of the prophecy and what Voldemort intended to do about it.
4. Snape hates Harry because Harry reminds Snape of Harry's father

Conclusion: Like most people Snape was enamored with Harry's mother. This is one of the reason's he loathed Harry's father aside from the bullying. Snape loved Harry's mother and switched sides when it was apparent Voldemort intended to kill her. This is why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Also notice how Snape treats Pettigrew at the beginning of the book.

Anyhow, Rowling practically hammers you over the head with this. Leads the horse to water so he won't have to think.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Tricky
But I giggle every time I think of the "Room of Requirement". Sounds to me like a "necessary room" or bathroom. Would it appear if you had a bad case of diarrhea?

If memory serves, that was the function Dumbledore used it for when he first alluded to it. It just took a long time for Harry to realize that practically everything Dumbledore says casually is actually significant later on.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey


It's like people with money. Old money might talk about new money amongst themselves, but they won't sneer at new money when they're both dissing the poor.

Have you had first-hand experience of this then? :D

Regarding the films, I'm pretty sure I read something recently about them starting to look for a new cast, so I don't think the current lot are in it for the long haul anyway. I doubt that was ever the intention, unless they luckily happened to have cast the new Michael J. Fox, Ralph Macchio and Winona Ryder.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
Regarding the films, I'm pretty sure I read something recently about them starting to look for a new cast, so I don't think the current lot are in it for the long haul anyway. I doubt that was ever the intention, unless they luckily happened to have cast the new Michael J. Fox, Ralph Macchio and Winona Ryder.

I much prefer the books to the movies, but I really hope they think to offer the role of Umbridge to Patricia Routledge. She'd be so perfect for it!

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by Tricky
Yes, I think Sirius is ded for the same reason I think Regulus is dead: Kreachur. Remember when Harry ordered Kreachur to do a task for him (watching the Room of Requirement). It appeared that Kreachur was magically compelled to do so, because he would have never done it for any other reason.Unless Kreacher had been ordered by his true master to do exactly what he did: appear to not want to cooperate, then pretend to be compelled to do what they required of him, so that they would believe Harry now was his rightful master. :)

[Luciana]

Couldn't Sirius just have said: "Kreacher, you must obey Harry Potter from now on. It is my wish that you obey him."

Still, somehow, with this book, I can't see how Sirius could return, I don't know what his role could be.

eta: Dumbledore-is-not-dead is a possibility. Ressuscitating Sirius as well would be kind of lame. I'd demand Cedric Diggory back also!

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
eta: Dumbledore-is-not-dead is a possibility. Ressuscitating Sirius as well would be kind of lame. I'd demand Cedric Diggory back also!

Oh, Ed. I can see it now, there's a horde of fangirls expecting an "everybody's-back-from-the-dead-and-in-love-except-the-bad-guys-and-Draco's-gay-for-Harry-but-noone's-feelings-are-hurt-and-the-Weaslys-get-rich-and-Harry-is-Minister-and-Hermione-is-Headmistress-and-there's-flying-unicorn-ponies-for-everyone" ending. And them getting bitter again when it doesn't happen.

I don't mean you, Luciana.

[Luciana]

:D

I'm sure some people are expecting a Happy Ending, with capitals: everyone back from the dead, Harry marrying Ginny and having the Weasleys for family and being very rich and famous as an Auror, Ron and Hermione getting married, etc.

If they could pull a happy ending to Titanic (they died, and then they meet and kiss???) it's understandable that some people would expect a Happy Ending. :rolleyes: :)

[Beancounter]

Originally posted by toddjh
Looks like the next movie is out in Brazil on November 19. And we were just talking about the kids' ages at work this morning. There's no way they can finish all seven movies before the kids are 20. :eek:

Jeremy

But in the final year of school they will be playing kids of 18 so it is only a 2 year difference.

[Odin]

Sirius falls into some kind of land of the dead type place. Maybe whatever magic controls Kreatcher is broken because of this.

My theory of the next book-
Harry is a horcrux and has to kill himself. Sirius ends up saving him and dies himself in the process.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
:D

I'm sure some people are expecting a Happy Ending, with capitals: everyone back from the dead, Harry marrying Ginny and having the Weasleys for family and being very rich and famous as an Auror, Ron and Hermione getting married, etc.

If they could pull a happy ending to Titanic (they died, and then they meet and kiss???) it's understandable that some people would expect a Happy Ending. :rolleyes: :)
Everybody except Percy. I want him to get a Ministry job in the MCPA (Magical Creature Protection Agency) which entails monitoring flobberworm habitats.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by specious_reasons
*snip*
And yes, I felt something for Draco, too. I felt for him a bit after meeting his father in the 2nd book. It's interesting he chose to confide in Moaning Myrtle - an act of desperation, it seems.

Did it occur to anyone else that he chose to confide in one of the few "persons" that the Death Eaters could not kill for knowing too much?
Though, why she wouldn´t spill the beans at first opportunity is beyond me, since it was Slytherin´s pet basilisk that killed her - you´d have thought she´d want to pay back the followers of Slytherin´s descendant...


Anyway, I think it´s a good guess that R.A.B. is Regulus Black and the Horcruxes are all (or maybe all except one) at the Black residence.
I don´t think Dumbledore will return from the dead, although I think he might show up as a ghost later on.

[specious_reasons]

The other Harry Potter books are buried in a box somewhere, so I couldn't look it up, but this enhances my suspicion that it was Regulus Black who took the Horcrux.

The odds that it's hidden in 12 Grimmauld Place are fairly good, if it wasn't actually destroyed.

Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper for the place, though - I wonder what that means for the Order of the Phoenix headquarters.

I think that Dumbledore (and possibly Sirius) will find ways to communicate to Harry, but I don't think they're alive.

Another thing I remember, at the end, when the new Minister of Magic, Harry repeats the line from the Chamber of Secrets, something like, "As long as there are people loyal to me at Hogwarts, I will not have truly left."

Just another hint, I'm sure. Also, Dumbledore is visibly touched when Harry repeats what he told the MoM early: "I'm a Dumbledore man, through and through." Very significant, I'm sure.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by toddjh
What I want to know is, why didn't Harry/Ron/Hermione recognize his handwriting? Surely he's been writing on chalkboards and marking up their essays for years?


What do we make of the comment that it looks like a girl's handwriting? Was that just JKR's way of making us suspect it was Harry's mother? Or was it just a plot device to get Hermione to look for a female possibility? Or was it a comment about Snape as an effiminate schoolboy?

BTW, I pretty much nailed the Prince as Snape after Harry zapped Malfoy, and Snape was impressed that he was willing to use such dark magic. Thus, we knew the HBP was dabbling in the dark arts, and good at potions. That's not Hagrid...

[toddjh]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
What do we make of the comment that it looks like a girl's handwriting? Was that just JKR's way of making us suspect it was Harry's mother? Or was it just a plot device to get Hermione to look for a female possibility? Or was it a comment about Snape as an effiminate schoolboy?

What kinda bothered me is the relative lack of Half-Blood Prince speculation by the kids. Sure, it was long known in Harry Potter fandom that J.K. Rowling ruled out Voldemort as the Half-Blood Prince, but I would've liked some indication that Harry and/or Hermione considered it. I mean, Voldemort was at Hogwarts at the right time, he was obviously very gifted and already working on original magic not in the books, he was a half-blood, and he was known to have a penchant for royal titles. It fits so perfectly, and yet the kids give no indication that the thought ever occurred to them.

I, on the other hand, with the benefit of the aforementioned proclamation from Rowling, pegged Snape as the Half-Blood Prince once I saw that the book was giving potions hints. I was temporarily thrown off by the age of the book, as Rowling no doubt intended, but I was vindicated in the end!

BTW, I pretty much nailed the Prince as Snape after Harry zapped Malfoy, and Snape was impressed that he was willing to use such dark magic. Thus, we knew the HBP was dabbling in the dark arts, and good at potions. That's not Hagrid...

Plus I find it hard to believe that Hagrid has feminine handwriting.

Jeremy

[TjW]

Originally posted by Tricky
Everybody except Percy. I want him to get a Ministry job in the MCPA (Magical Creature Protection Agency) which entails monitoring flobberworm habitats.

I dunno. Percy was in Gryffindor. If he was as ambitious as he seems to be, you'd think the hat would have put him in Slytherin. I don't think he's a double agent a la Snape, but I think he's in with the Ministry of Magic so his true Gryfindorish/Weasley nature can overwhelm his ambition and he can provide some crucial information in the last book. If it's any consolation, he might die doing it, though.

[toddjh]

Originally posted by TjW
I dunno. Percy was in Gryffindor. If he was as ambitious as he seems to be, you'd think the hat would have put him in Slytherin. I don't think he's a double agent a la Snape, but I think he's in with the Ministry of Magic so his true Gryfindorish/Weasley nature can overwhelm his ambition and he can provide some crucial information in the last book. If it's any consolation, he might die doing it, though.

Percy's not a bad guy, he's just blinded by the grandeur of his position and the high horse he's on (a typically Gryffindor failing if ever there was one). In Goblet of Fire, he rushes to pull Ron from the water after Harry rescues him during the second trial. He obviously has a lot of loyalty to his family, even if he's in denial now because of embarrassment.

Jeremy

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
What do we make of the comment that it looks like a girl's handwriting? Was that just JKR's way of making us suspect it was Harry's mother?

I'm waiting another week or so before I reread it, but I don't see it as absolutely necessary that the book's owner, Snape, necessarily had to be the one making all the notes. What about Harry's mom having borrowed Snape's book, made her notes, then given it back? Or it could have been a collaboration, with her doing the writing. She was apparently good at Potions, too. Maybe she and Snape were pretty close until she had to dump the smart guy for the popular jock jerk.

Unless she was Snape's fag hag, in which case it would be an even worse kind of betrayal to start seeing his mortal enemy. Maybe that's what pushed him into going dark.

[Piscivore]

Originally posted by Chaos
Though, why she wouldn´t spill the beans at first opportunity is beyond me, since it was Slytherin´s pet basilisk that killed her -

Does she know that? I don't see anyone bothering to come back and trying to explain it to her.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I'm waiting another week or so before I reread it, bu