Do you fake pray?

[Anti_Hypeman]

Do you ever fake pray just to be socailly acceptable? I have endured the evil eye several times for not participating in group prayer. Sometimes life would be easier if I just pretended to be one of the pod people how do other handle such situations?

[Nyarlathotep]

Depends on how you define 'fake pray'. My wife and I usually have Thanksgiving dinner at her sister's house. They always say a prayer prior to eating. Do I get up and refresh my drink at that time? No, I sit there silently until they are done. If that is fake praying then yes I do. But on the other hand, I don't actually make any pretense of praying, I am just polite when they do it. And her sister (and presumably the rest of her family) knows that we are atheists and aren't really praying along. So it isn't a big deal.

In short, honesty is the best policy, but be polite. That has worked out pretty well for me so far.

[Neutiquam Erro]

As a church-going atheist (whose family/social situation doesn't encourage outspoken dissent), I never enter a religious service without a silent, personal invocation:

"Lord, bless these motions I'm about to go through."

The Lord has yet to punish me for the misplaced preposition.

[EdipisReks]

uh, usually if people around me are praying i look for the exit, because i really don't know how i got into the mosque in the first place. unless they have food. mmmmm, haleem. i'll fake pray for haleem any day of the week.

[Crossbow]

I do not fake pray.

When such things come up I just keep my head raised, my eyes open, and avoid saying the 'amen' at the end of it.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by Crossbow
I do not fake pray.

When such things come up I just keep my head raised, my eyes open, and avoid saying the 'amen' at the end of it.

That's what I do, although I rarely find myself in the situation now. Most work-related dinners etc have some non-specific 'grace' nowadays, so as not to offend anyone or favour one or indeed any religion.

I must be really childish, because when the deliberate avoidance of prayer or grace is necessary, I WANT people to notice and ask me about it so I can proudly claim my athiesm and watch their reaction. Yes, I know that is juvenile.

I don't sing the national anthem either. I'm not anti-royal or unpatriotic, I just don't want to sing a song asking God to save the Queen. I don't care about the Queen, dammit, and I don't believe in God, so keep your silly tune!

Funnily enough, I used to 'fake pray' when I was a born-again Christian. I also faked speaking in tongues and I completely faked a fainting fit when I was exorcised because I'd seen others faint and knew it was expected. In fact, it was that faking (and the suspicion that everyone was at it) that led me down the dear path of atheism.

[Ryokan]

Never. Public prayer in any form is not part of the culture I live in, we tend to see religion as a private and personal matter.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Anti_Hypeman
Do you ever fake pray just to be socailly acceptable? I have endured the evil eye several times for not participating in group prayer. Sometimes life would be easier if I just pretended to be one of the pod people how do other handle such situations? Yes, I have no real problem with it personally. I see it as a sign of respect. I know that view isn't respected by some but tough. And I'm sure that a number of the individuals I am respecting would not respect me in some circumstances. But that is fine with me.

BTW, and I have touched on this before but I do give prayers. They are actually just good sentiments.

We hope that peace and harmony will be on this house. We hope our love for each other will abide. We hope the loved ones not here today are in good health and happy. We are grateful for our family and we are grateful for our blessings. May it will ever be. Amen.

I feel good and I'm often thanked though sometimes I'm admonished to thank god for the blessings. I just smile. I don't feel that I have betrayed anything or have been dishonest.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by RandFan


BTW, and I have touched on this before but I do give prayers. They are actually just good sentiments.

We hope that peace and harmony will be on this house. We hope our love for each other will abide. We hope the loved ones not here today are in good health and happy. We are grateful for our family and we are grateful for our blessings. May it will ever be. Amen.



That's actually really nice. It's a great idea to express a sentiment in a group, just for 'wellbeings' sake. What bothers me about religious prayer is that the praying individuals believe that by expressing the desire (God keep everyone safe and happy) etc, that it might somehow happen as a result of their prayer.

I mean, as an atheist, you might say that you hope your loved ones are safe and happy, but you know that if they are, it's not because you said it. If you did believe that, then it's no better than superstition.

[Anti_Hypeman]

Is it actually written in the bible somewhere that you have to bow your head ans close your eyes to pray? How do they know Im not praying?

What really bothers me is the people starring at me are not doing it either or how would they know Im not praying correctly?

Religous tollerance seems to mean you can pray to any god you want but you have to pick one.

[jjramsey]

Originally posted by Anti_Hypeman
Is it actually written in the bible somewhere that you have to bow your head ans close your eyes to pray?

No.

Originally posted by Anti_Hypeman
How do they know Im not praying? What really bothers me is the people starring at me are not doing it either or how would they know Im not praying correctly?

Maybe they see you out of the corner of their eyes. Maybe their heads bob up for a moment, and they see you. Maybe they have half-heard about you being an atheist, and they check if you're praying to make sure.

[Marquis de Carabas]

I view prayers in my presence as being like bad lovers. Just sit back and hope it doesn't take too long.

[Hawk one]

Originally posted by Marquis de Carabas
I view prayers in my presence as being like bad lovers. Just sit back and hope it doesn't take too long.

You know, this post gives some rather disturbing* insight about your love life....


*Though not as disturbing as the fact that I just reread the whole "How tall are you?" thread and actually found myself smiling, even giggling at times.

[Riddick]

Originally posted by Neutiquam Erro
As a church-going atheist (whose family/social situation doesn't encourage outspoken dissent), I never enter a religious service without a silent, personal invocation:

"Lord, bless these motions I'm about to go through."

The Lord has yet to punish me for the misplaced preposition.
"i could carve a better backbone out of a banana." - president eisenhower on choosing earl warren (http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF1202/Haygood/Haygood04.jpg) as a supreme court justice.

[JPK71]

Very simple answer - I never fake, course I never pray. In fact - I refuse to participate in any religious event. Made me a good amount of enemies on that account. A few years ago, I refused to enter a church at some friends wedding. Not a popular decision - but really not my concern. I have principles.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by JPK71
Very simple answer - I never fake, course I never pray. In fact - I refuse to participate in any religious event. Made me a good amount of enemies on that account. A few years ago, I refused to enter a church at some friends wedding. Not a popular decision - but really not my concern. I have principles. Personal principles or something all atheists should adhere to? I see no reason to make enemies aside from ego and arrogance. I don't get the whole "us" vs. "them" concept. These are just humans. Many are friends and family. We want and hope for their respect but we don't want to dirty our hands with their silly superstitions. I have no such contempt for people. There are lines that I draw but they are not quite so rigid. The smile and gratitude from a bride and groom for my support is worth any silly ritual. But then that is just me.

[Bikewer]

No. On those occasions where religious practices are going on, such as weddings, funerals, and such, I just stand there.

[hodgy]

Originally posted by Crossbow
I do not fake pray.

When such things come up I just keep my head raised, my eyes open, and avoid saying the 'amen' at the end of it.

Me too.

If I am at a funeral when the prayers are said I bow my head as a mark of respect for the deceased but I do not pray - I conciously make an effort to run through my memories of the deceased instead.

[kuroyume0161]

The last time that I was at a 'religious' type function, a wedding about six or so years ago, my natural instinct was just to be courteous. I listened to all of the talk, I stood up when everyone stood up, I sat when everyone sat, though I did not kneel, sing the hymns, or participate in the prayers. Seemed to incur no wrath from anybody towards me. :)

[Jon.]

As many others have said, I just sit there quietly and don't say "amen" at the end. It doesn't happen very often, actually, but when it does, nobody says anything about it.

I don't sing the national anthem either. I'm not anti-royal or unpatriotic, I just don't want to sing a song asking God to save the Queen. I don't care about the Queen, dammit, and I don't believe in God, so keep your silly tune!

I agree, but I live in Canada, where the words go "God keep our land, glorious and free." I do care about Canada being kept glorious and free, I just don't think we should be asking a mythical being to be responsible. So I always sing "Let's keep our land..."

Either nobody has noticed yet, or nobody cares.

[jimmygun]

I stand when they stand, I sit when they sit. I do not bow my head, I take the time to check out the good looking women in the church without worrying about being castigated for staring.

I have caught the unfriendly eye of the priest when I was supposed to be head down and I just give him a smile and a nod of hello. He knows I am an atheist but so far has said nothing to me to my face. I like to think that it is a matter of respect for my views that he says nothing but I suspect he doesn't have the orbs to do it.

One time, while celebrating the 40th anniversary of a couple I know (held in the church basement) a grace was offered before eating. My friends mother, (a devout Baptist) who was sitting at a table in front of me with her arms folded in prayer and her head down low, peeked at me under her arm. I smiled and nodded but it was all I could do to keep from bursting out in laughter! It was as if she figured she could keep god from seeing her look during prayer by hiding it under her arm like a kid in school!

Man, too funny! Best time I have ever had in church!

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Jon.
As many others have said, I just sit there quietly and don't say "amen" at the end. It doesn't happen very often, actually, but when it does, nobody says anything about it.



I agree, but I live in Canada, where the words go "God keep our land, glorious and free." I do care about Canada being kept glorious and free, I just don't think we should be asking a mythical being to be responsible. So I always sing "Let's keep our land..."

Either nobody has noticed yet, or nobody cares.

Our constitution also starts with these wonderful words:

Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law

[arthwollipot]

Like other posters, I maintain respectful silence and do not bother anyone. I went to a funeral a little while ago which had a strong Anglican bent. The interesting thing is that the deceaced's daughter is a neo-pagan. I don't think she "fake prayed" either.

[Quinn]

Count me in as another non-faker who instead just stands there politely, waiting for it to be over and entertaining other thoughts (often involving how some of those around me would look while praying naked).

Unless, of course, you're talking about the prayers at the church where I play piano, in which case I simply continue clowning around and making blasphemous jokes with my fellow musicians in the choir loft, just like we do throughout the rest of the service. However, we do sometimes join in the responsorial thingie, although rather than "Thanks be to god" or whatever, our response is always something like "This is bullsh!t!"

[TragicMonkey]

When it happens at dinner, you can seize the opportunity to plan strategy. I'm not saying go ahead and put food on your plate. But if you want first servings of a particular dish, you might be able to unobtrusively edge it closer to you and put a few obstacle dishes between your target and your nearest rival. Scoot something nice closer to you, and scoot something nasty further away.

If the devotion goes on too long, you can get revenge by shifting someone's glass so they're bound to knock it over when they unfold their hands and put their head up.

For the less mean, but more surreally-inclined, you can take the quiet time to put food on other people's plates without them noticing. The devout theist will stare in wonder as they find exactly three green peas on their plate, arranged in an artful triangle. Is it manna from heaven? A manifestation of the Trinity? Perhaps those peas were always there, but only with the blessing of the Lord were they made apparent to mortal eyes.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
Funnily enough, I used to 'fake pray' when I was a born-again Christian. I also faked speaking in tongues and I completely faked a fainting fit when I was exorcised because I'd seen others faint and knew it was expected. In fact, it was that faking (and the suspicion that everyone was at it) that led me down the dear path of atheism.

I had a similar experience. As a then-Christian who was beginning to question my beliefs, my Christian friends thought it would be a good idea to take me to Hockley Pentecostal, a very OTT evangelical church not far from where you live. There was dancing in the isles, energetic gospel songs, people fainting due to 'the power of the Spirit' and lots of speaking in tounges.

It didn't work. The pastor came over as a skilled MC who knew how to work a crowd (though I don't doubt his personal integrety), and I remained untouched by the fainting and tounges, except for feeling a little light-headed due to hyper-ventilation. It just didn't work for me. I didn't fake it - I just sat down and gave up. This was the beginning of the end for my faith.

[Mid]

The only times I’ve come into a situation where I’ve needed to fake pray was at funerals at which I usually just think of the deceased. This I think is a better response than what the rest of my fairly non religious family and relatives do which is trying to join in, this usually devolves into a complete farce.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
When it happens at dinner, you can seize the opportunity to plan strategy. I'm not saying go ahead and put food on your plate. But if you want first servings of a particular dish, you might be able to unobtrusively edge it closer to you and put a few obstacle dishes between your target and your nearest rival. Scoot something nice closer to you, and scoot something nasty further away.

If the devotion goes on too long, you can get revenge by shifting someone's glass so they're bound to knock it over when they unfold their hands and put their head up.

For the less mean, but more surreally-inclined, you can take the quiet time to put food on other people's plates without them noticing. The devout theist will stare in wonder as they find exactly three green peas on their plate, arranged in an artful triangle. Is it manna from heaven? A manifestation of the Trinity? Perhaps those peas were always there, but only with the blessing of the Lord were they made apparent to mortal eyes.

Man, that's funny. Hee hee. My mischevious nature is already trying to think of occasions where I might pull something like this. I'm going to a wedding on Saturday, ideal!

It would be hilarious in a dinner situation to smear your own plate with gravy then when the grace is over and everyone looks up, rub your belly as though full and say "mmm, that was delicious, what's for pudding?"

I wouldn't have the guts though.

[Bentspoon]

I like most others here, remain respectfully silent until people finish. If it is grace at the table, I bow my head in respect for the people who have invited me. If it is at my place - there is no grace at the table so I would assume that I am a guest in someone's house under these circumstances.

However, in a public situation or at a wedding or funeral, I do not bow my head but maintain silence. I would not be moving about.

Here is another take on this question:

Has anyone turned to you at the dinner table and asked you to say grace?

I have and I refused saying that I do not share that faith and would not show disrespect by trying fake it. Then ask the host to please have another say grace for the group. In this situation, I was exposed meaning that there were people there who had no idea I was an atheist or that they even really existed (in laws).

Bentspoon

[H3LL]

Fake: To engage in feigning, simulation, or other deceptive activity.

It's all fake as others are feigning talking to something that isn't there in an attempt to deceive others/themselves.

I stand or sit quietly on the few occasions I've been involved in prayer. I will never kneel or bow without a gun to my head.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Bentspoon
Has anyone turned to you at the dinner table and asked you to say grace?

Yes.

I gave a very moving prayer that everyone quite appreciated right up until the end when I finally mentioned the name of the goddess Isis, to whom we were praying.

Some people have no sense of humor. They're okay with thankfulness and reverence in general, but once you start naming names, they get huffy.

[clarsct]

Hmmmmmm


Well, Having been to a few wedding in the last couple of years, I guess I do not "Fake pray". I sit there with my head held high. My first real experience with this since I started being agnostic, though now I'm more atheist, I admit, was at my best friends wedding. The best man, also a close friend, was and is a complete, hardcore atheist. My friend who was married was and is a Roman Catholic, but a rather tolerant one, I must say. Everyone else kneeled and prayed. I was in the wedding party, and the Best Man and I would just meet eyes and smile every time. I think he even waved once. It was our way of saying "Well, bud, we're happy for you, but all this kneeling and stuff is a load of crap. We're willing to be tolerant for your sake, but don't expect us to buy into it." When it came time for communion, we both crossed our arms and shook our heads. The priest presiding said that was proper, as we weren't Catholic. So no biggie there.


Now, my Fiancee's family is pretty Lutheran. I went to a couple of weddings and didn't bow my head, only to have the pastor glare at me throughout the reading. I thought it was funny. I stared him in the eye and smiled. My soon-to-be Mother in Law tried to castigate me for not praying, until I pointed out to her that she couldn't have known, had she BEEN praying. Seemed to take the wind out of her sails.

My own wedding will be conducted with a civil ceremony, and a blessing done by her uncle, a Lutheran pastor. It was a compromise, and folks seem to be happy. I figure the blessing of an imaginary being doesn't hurt any. Although, her aunt(different branch than the aformentioned uncle) is still asking her if I'm going to be baptised at the wedding. My friends find this quite amusing. One asked which Special Forces team she was going to have do so.


At any rate, I do not fake pray, but neither do I deny anyone else from praying. Go ahead. I've never been asked to say grace, but I have thought of something like TM's response if I had. Alas, I have lacked to oppourtunity. I think those who know me warn people actively away from asking me such things. Bastards!

[Glacian]

I haven't been in any situations recently where people pray - my parents actually avoid praying now or do something short and almost....secular, since their entire set of offspring are no longer "of the faith". I am usually quiet and respectful, but I recall one time in sunday school about 2 or 3 years ago, when the teacher (pastor's wife) would have us go in a circle, and people would say "Well, my grandma is sick..." etc., until we all finished, then she'd repeat all of the people to pray for and we'd "pray" for them. I usually found the prayers disgustingly pretentious - I never saw praying to god FOR things to be anything but...blasphemous - while yes, I believed in God for many years and am not ashamed to admit that (why should I be?), and I don't make any pretense of "always being an atheist", I always had a gripe with prayer. Anyway, one time we got to this girl who wanted to say a prayer because her car got a flat tire. Yup. Not for the children dying of cancer, not for terrorism victims or orphans or the oppressed - no...her car. I insisted the teacher return to me so I could say something about all the "unwanted girls abandoned in china" (or something like that), and she got in an argument with me. According to her, we shouldn't care about people (and certainly not pray for them!) from other countries until everyone in our country was taken care of first. It got to the point where I asked her bluntly "Do you consider an American life more valuable than a Chinese life?"

Her answer: Yes.

Ugh, I was so disgusted with this girl.

Oh yes, and I also usually spend "prayer time" or any other moments of silence, anthems, shows of respect, etc. checking out girls. I also did it during every church service, sunday school class, and so on. It just feels so right to have such...naughty thoughts in your head when you're in church. Perhaps I did it just to stick my nose up at god a little...but I also did it because some of those preppy Christian girls were friggin' hot.

[RamblingOnwards]

Originally posted by Glacian
It got to the point where I asked her bluntly "Do you consider an American life more valuable than a Chinese life?"

Her answer: Yes.

Ugh, I was so disgusted with this girl.


Her response wasn't entirely wrong. If you're left with the insanely unlikely choice of having to chose who to save, it is entirely reasonable to save in (some variation of) the order:

own child, partner, family member, other child, friend, aquaintance, fellow (identifying group), total stranger.

how heavily you weigh the various familial, fraternal and geographical bonds is up to you, but in either/or situations, it's perfectly reasonable for an American to chose an American, or a Chinese person to chose a Chinese person.

[w@ntonsoup]

My wife's whole family are Evangelical nutcases who pray all the freaking time. Since we eat big family meals there a few times a year, it came up often.

At first we went along, holding hands but not looking down, closing our eyes, and praying, but just looking at each other and rolling our eyes.

Then, we started making ourselves busy when they'd pray. I'd be stirring the food and my wife would be bringing in pop from the garage.

Now, we just say "No Thanks" while they waste their time and look at each other and roll our eyes.

[Jas]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
I gave a very moving prayer that everyone quite appreciated right up until the end when I finally mentioned the name of the goddess Isis, to whom we were praying.


So what was the reaction?

I've considered offering an homage to our Heavenly Father Zeus, or maybe popping in a reference to Odin, but haven't had the balls yet to go through with it.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally posted by Jas
So what was the reaction?

I've considered offering an homage to our Heavenly Father Zeus, or maybe popping in a reference to Odin, but haven't had the balls yet to go through with it.

They just chalked it up to my well-known eccentricity, and did a quick "real" grace of their own. I got a couple of nasty looks, but most were confused. I hadn't realized that so many people only know Isis from the seventies television show.

Which makes me angry. How can people be so certain their religion is the correct one when they know nothing about previous religions?

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey


Which makes me angry. How can people be so certain their religion is the correct one when they know nothing about previous religions?

Oh my god! You're so right! I never thought of that before! I'm seriously going to have to reconsider my worship of Vitumnus. That's ten years of foetus-worship down the drain :(

[Glacian]

Originally posted by RamblingOnwards

Her response wasn't entirely wrong. If you're left with the insanely unlikely choice of having to chose who to save, it is entirely reasonable to save in (some variation of) the order:

own child, partner, family member, other child, friend, aquaintance, fellow (identifying group), total stranger.

how heavily you weigh the various familial, fraternal and geographical bonds is up to you, but in either/or situations, it's perfectly reasonable for an American to chose an American, or a Chinese person to chose a Chinese person.


Yes, but the way she said it implied that Americans were somehow superior to Chinese - it was evident in the tone of her voice, she said it with a pompous sneer, as if concern over Chinese people was beneath her.

[Paulhoff]

I fake pray, no problem with that, most people that I know personally, know that I am agnostic. Fake praying is just being polite. If I go to a Church, Temple or any faith, I will do what is need and only needed to be polite. I get upset when I see a place of faith burnt down or it being vandalized. Many people need these places of worship, and as long as they don’t take my right to be different away there is no problem. Ben Franklin who was not all that religious belonged to many churches and maybe a temple, because he thought they did more good than harm and knew it was good public relations for him.

Speaking in tongues. My father told me that it also can mean, speaking so that anyone of any tongue would understand you in their on tongue. Like using a Star Trek universal translator. When someone does that type of speaking in tongues, I may rethink my thoughts.

Paul

:) :) :)

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by Paulhoff


Speaking in tongues. My father told me that it also can mean, speaking so that anyone of any tongue would understand you in their on tongue. Like using a Star Trek universal translator. When someone does that type of speaking in tongues, I may rethink my thoughts.

Paul

:) :) :)

Sort of a reverse babel fish?

Actually, the sort of speaking in tongues you describe does exist, it's called Esperanto. :D

Sorry, I'm in a facetious mood tonight. I have nothing serious to say.

[Paulhoff]

Well, you still have to learn how to speak Esperanto. The most common word is the world is Okay or O.K. You can hear almost any one speaking any language, sooner or later you will hear, O.K.

O.K.

Paul

:) :) :)

[kerfer]

Originally posted by Anti_Hypeman
Is it actually written in the bible somewhere that you have to bow your head ans close your eyes to pray? How do they know Im not praying?

I'm unsure of that, but it does say that they are to do it alone, not in groups, like the hypocrites. ;)

[arthwollipot]

Originally posted by Paulhoff
Speaking in tongues. My father told me that it also can mean, speaking so that anyone of any tongue would understand you in their on tongue. Like using a Star Trek universal translator. When someone does that type of speaking in tongues, I may rethink my thoughts.

Paul

:) :) :)

Speaking in toungues is supposed to be what you describe. Look at Acts 2:4 to 2:13. Modern "speaking in toungues" is simply babbling. I know - I have done it.

The theory was that "to some were given the gift of speaking in toungues, to others was the gift of interpreting what was said". That was how it was explained to me at any rate. I didn't see anything in Acts about interpretation. What I read was that everyone who heard the Apostles heard them speaking in their own native tongue. No babbling, no "interpretation".

"Glossolalia" (http://skepdic.com/glossol.html)

[Sharon]

I fake prayer too.

I've just got a job as a teaching assistant and we do prayer in morning assembley. I feel uncomfortable and silly while doing so as I feel I'm talking to myself yet at the same time I feel I must go through the motions as the job i've got is in my local village C of E school. Only been my first week there, we now have six weeks holiday, but i have to say it's felt strange. By day three i've made a point of 'searching' for children who are whispering and larking about and have instead of praying done the finger on lips code to them, to stop them chatting/larking about. I feel the best way to get through it is to continue doing this, be on larking about watch. I'm not against people praying, each to their own, it's just I have no faith, feel no connection what-so-ever and it just makes me feel silly doing it really.

Sharon

[Paulhoff]

Your signature by Carl Sagan

"People are not stupid. They believe things for reasons. The last way for skeptics to get the attention of bright, curious, intelligent people is to belittle or condescend or to show arrogance toward their beliefs." - Carl Sagan

Well, a friend of mine once said, and I am sure it is not his idea.

“Smart people can be ignorant, all people are all ignorant about some (or a lot) of things, but smart people can be taught. Stupid people on the other hand will remain stupid no matter how much you try, so the best thing to do is just run away from them as fast as you can.� :(

Paul

:) :) :)