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View Full Version : Seeing dead people before dying ? NDEs


jambo372
24th July 2005, 04:12 PM
Why do so many people see apparitions in the days immediately before their own demise ?

My aunt and uncle work in a lunatic asylum and they say that a few days before a patient dies they start seeing apparitions of people, even if they did not behave like this before or display these symptoms. They say it is quite common in their institution.

Also, my grandfather almost died of pneumonia when he was 11 and said that he saw an angel on the end of his bed gesturing him to follow her, he refused and she said she'd come back another day. Despite his high fever this only happened when he was at his very worst and they thought he had no hope of surviving.

Why does this happen ?

Ryokan
24th July 2005, 04:15 PM
It's hard to see them after..?

Because death is on their mind..?

Do you think people from cultures that don't believe in angles see angels when they're near death..? If not, why do you think that is?

ETA : You wouldn't believe all the weird things I have experienced during a high fever.

jambo372
24th July 2005, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Ryokan
It's hard to see them after..?

Because death is on their mind..?

Do you think people from cultures that don't believe in angles see angels when they're near death..? If not, why do you think that is?

ETA : You wouldn't believe all the weird things I have experienced during a high fever.

They don't always know they are dying ... but it always begins within 3 days prior to their demise.

Ryokan
24th July 2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by jambo372
... but it always begins within 3 days prior to their demise.

Wow, I've been on the JREF forum for some time now, but this is the first time I'll use the standard reply to a woo in here.

Here it comes...

Evidence?!

Interesting Ian
24th July 2005, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Ryokan
Wow, I've been on the JREF forum for some time now, but this is the first time I'll use the standard reply to a woo in here.

Here it comes...

Evidence?!

Get a copy of this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0803893868/qid=1122247660/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2639636-7960654?v=glance&s=books). They conducted their own research.

And there's a book published 1926 which you can read online
here (http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/barrett/dbv/contents.htm)

TobiasTheViking
24th July 2005, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Ryokan
Wow, I've been on the JREF forum for some time now, but this is the first time I'll use the standard reply to a woo in here.

Here it comes...

Evidence?!

lacking?

Ryokan
24th July 2005, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Interesting Ian

And there's a book published 1926 which you can read online
here (http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/barrett/dbv/contents.htm)

1926, huh? Well, I guess the scientific community hasn't moved forward since then, huh?

But sure, I can read it. I work the graveyard shift, and nothing ever happens here.

Soapy Sam
24th July 2005, 04:47 PM
Possibly, if people have been in a hospital (mental or physical) for a long time, we may assume they are seriously unwell?

People who are seriously unwell often lose the ability to distinguish reality from hallucination, particularly if given sedatives.

We might reasonably expect this to be even more pronounced among people who are already mentally ill.

If someone's death, through illness is under three days away, confusion and dementia are apt to be far more common than among an average population.

The above supposes the story you tell is actually true.
As so often, J, your evidence seems to be family anecdote. Can you actually substantiate the claimed effect? Were records kept of the sightings? If the effect is as common as you imply, we might expect some statistics to have been compiled over the years.

Is there data that otherwise perfectly healthy people see dead people 72 hours before their own death?
For example, during the First World War, one might reasonably expect several thousand such reports before a major push. This might be used to actually predict enemy attack. Surely even military intelligence would spot something as useful as this?

DangerousBeliefs
24th July 2005, 04:50 PM
Could very well be a real phenomena.

Here's a hypothesis... as certain individuals brains begin to deteoriate prior to death, they begin to hallucinate. The dying brain supplies memories of people and places, possibly long past and forgotten.

These hallucinations may even appear as ghosts to the person.

Interesting Ian
24th July 2005, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Possibly, if people have been in a hospital (mental or physical) for a long time, we may assume they are seriously unwell?

People who are seriously unwell often lose the ability to distinguish reality from hallucination, particularly if given sedatives.

We might reasonably expect this to be even more pronounced among people who are already mentally ill.

If someone's death, through illness is under three days away, confusion and dementia are apt to be far more common than among an average population.

The above supposes the story you tell is actually true.
As so often, J, your evidence seems to be family anecdote. Can you actually substantiate the claimed effect? Were records kept of the sightings? If the effect is as common as you imply, we might expect some statistics to have been compiled over the years.

Is there data that otherwise perfectly healthy people see dead people 72 hours before their own death?
For example, during the First World War, one might reasonably expect several thousand such reports before a major push. This might be used to actually predict enemy attack. Surely even military intelligence would spot something as useful as this?

I've read that people have these visions shortly before death, not the last 3 days. I'd need consult my "at the hour of death". Anyway, typically when people have these visions they sound very coherent and alert. Indeed typically more alert than they have been for a long time.

It's just basically NDEs except that they really die.

Interesting Ian
24th July 2005, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Could very well be a real phenomena.

Here's a hypothesis... as certain individuals brains begin to deteoriate prior to death, they begin to hallucinate. The dying brain supplies memories of people and places, possibly long past and forgotten.

These hallucinations may even appear as ghosts to the person.

They tend to be atypical for hallucinations. What good reasons do we have not to take them at their face value?

Interesting Ian
24th July 2005, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
[B]I've read that people have these visions shortly before death, not the last 3 days.

Hmmm . .Fenwick mentions 24 hours or so

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/college/sig/spirit/publications/NL_15/PFenwickNearDeath.pdf

DangerousBeliefs
24th July 2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
They tend to be atypical for hallucinations. What good reasons do we have not to take them at their face value?

Evidence that ghosts exist?

Evidence that souls exist?

Oh wait, I'm replying to Ian... nevermind.

Interesting Ian
24th July 2005, 05:24 PM
And CSICOP have a short piece about deathbed visions.

http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-09/i-files.html (half way down page)

Interesting Ian
24th July 2005, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
Get a copy of this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0803893868/qid=1122247660/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2639636-7960654?v=glance&s=books). They conducted their own research.



As Grosso says:


Osis and Haraldsson (1977) conducted a cross-cultural study of deathbed visions with findings that support the afterlife hypothesis: for one thing, the visions and the elation that subjects experience seem to be suppressed by medications. Their occurrence is typically brief and so suggest ESP-like communications rather than the prolonged action of sick, dying brains.


http://www.parapsi.com/cons-flatliner.html

Soapy Sam
25th July 2005, 05:03 AM
There would have to be enough time for them to relate the account(s) to someone likely to remember it.

On the moment of death, I suspect we will all have something we want to say, but will we be able to?

The institutional link (hospital / retirement home) increases the chance of some records being kept, as the same stafff might encounter the phenomenon several times.

Some actual data would be good.

Interesting Ian
25th July 2005, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs
Originally posted by Interesting Ian
They tend to be atypical for hallucinations. What good reasons do we have not to take them at their face value?


DangerousBeliefs
Evidence that ghosts exist?

Evidence that souls exist?

Oh wait, I'm replying to Ian... nevermind.

I don't really understand your response. I would consider a soul to simply be a substantial self that survives the body. Thus, for a kick off, the evidence for both ghosts and souls is provided by the deathbed visions themselves.