Do Crows Anticipate Death?

[FreeChile]

I’ve been thinking about crows and death lately wondering if Hollywood Western movies have perpetuated a myth. The usual image is of crows or ravens circling or anticipating the death of a person to later feed on the carcass. Do these animals really anticipate death? If so, how do they do it? Along the same line, would a raven attempt to feed on a sleeping animal on the field or do they really wait for the animals to die as portrayed in the movies?

[jmercer]

It's actually from a much older series of observations. Crows are seen on any battlefield, ranging back through recorded history. They're mentioned in chronicles of war predating Christ, in fact.

Crows are carrion eaters - like vultures, but much more numerous and widespread. It's not surprising that they would be the first ones to detect food.

[Kell]

I thought it was vultures that circled, rather than corvidae. Crows and ravens are carrion feeders, but aren't they just attracted by smell? Although crows are considered to be the most intelligent of birds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae

A quick Google is throwing up a few sites that all say crows are very intelligent, so perhaps the fact that solitary animals on the ground in wilderness areas are imminent carrion is something they could learn to take advantage of.

[FreeChile]

Does this mean that vultures anticipate death and not crows? That would make vultures a bit more intelligent in that respect. I think I read on the same Wickipedia that crows have funerals. Is there any truth to that?
Crows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crow)

[FreeChile]

Here's also a link on vultures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulture) on Wickipedia. This link explains that vultures "find carcasses exclusively by sight" and also that "They have a good sense of smell, unusual for raptors." So this is probably how they find food.

My problem with the Hollywood image is that it mystifies these birds by implying that they know when animals are about to die. Take for instance the image of the vulture, which is probably taken to be the most opportunistic of all animals. If it simply relies on sight and smell to find food, then where is the mystery?

[Temp3st]

I doubt it's any different from a Lion being able to observe which animal in a herd is weaker than the others.

[Jas]

Originally posted by FreeChile
I’ve been thinking about crows and death lately...

In anticipation of Tim Burton's new film?

I think you should cheer up a little:p

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by Jas
In anticipation of Tim Burton's new film?

I think you should cheer up a little:p This is precisely the kind of misconception I am questioning. I am in the best of spirits buddy. In fact, I am having a drink as I write.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by FreeChile
I’ve been thinking about crows and death lately wondering if Hollywood Western movies have perpetuated a myth. The usual image is of crows or ravens circling or anticipating the death of a person to later feed on the carcass.
This probably has more to do with dramatic imagery and commitment to sterotype rather than really being concerned with what crows actually do. Crows are ugly birds, so we associate them with bad things, like death.

The strange idea that crows = death has even made it into our language: a group of geese is a gaggle, a group of seagulls is a flock, a group of crows is a murder :re:.

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by Yahweh
This probably has more to do with dramatic imagery and commitment to sterotype rather than really being concerned with what crows actually do. Crows are ugly birds, so we associate them with bad things, like death.

The strange idea that crows = death has even made it into our language: a group of geese is a gaggle, a group of seagulls is a flock, a group of crows is a murder :re:.
[Homer Simpson] A murder, Marge. A group of crows is called a murder. [/Homer Simpson]

[sf108]

Originally posted by FreeChile
I’ve been thinking about crows and death lately wondering if Hollywood Western movies have perpetuated a myth. The usual image is of crows or ravens circling or anticipating the death of a person to later feed on the carcass. Do these animals really anticipate death? If so, how do they do it? Along the same line, would a raven attempt to feed on a sleeping animal on the field or do they really wait for the animals to die as portrayed in the movies?

Do you mean the crows are circling because the body/animal is dead or is dying? If it's already dead, then I'm sure that can be attributed to the smell of decaying flesh, like others said.

If the target is dying, then I guess like Temp3st said, could be their ability to spot weaker targets.

[Bronze Dog]

Completely uninformed opinion: One clue they might use is body stance and movement. "Hey, have you ever noticed that humans crawl on all fours and shortly thereafter show up dead?"

[Jeff Corey]

In my observation of crow behavior, in the lab or out, they are sure more observant and learn new things faster than, say, mourning doves or pidgeons.
In my area, they seem to have a watchcrow at the top of the tallest pine tree and may have different calls for different situations.
CAW CAW CAW for loose dogs and cats.
So, it probably is the case that whenever something dead is edible, they spot it, call in and eat it.

[Gr8wight]

Originally posted by Temp3st
I doubt it's any different from a Lion being able to observe which animal in a herd is weaker than the others.

Lions don't observe which animal in a herd is weaker. They simply catch the first one they overtake, which happens to be the one that runs the slowest.

[Z]

Originally posted by Gr8wight
Lions don't observe which animal in a herd is weaker. They simply catch the first one they overtake, which happens to be the one that runs the slowest.

Actually, that's not true. Researchers have shown that lions use different techniques for different prey, and they certainly select weak or wounded prey when the prey species is difficult or dangerous to take down. They may also take down a slower member if their intended prey outruns the other - after all, why pass up a good opportunity? - but the fact that they select a victim is very clear to researchers. Males, especially, tend to carefully select a victim when they hunt - which is usually in unnatural situations like preserves in the Americas and such.

[sf108]

Originally posted by Gr8wight
Lions don't observe which animal in a herd is weaker. They simply catch the first one they overtake, which happens to be the one that runs the slowest.

Adding to what zaayrdragon said, if they caught a zebra/wildebeest that was running the slowest, wouldn't that mean it's the weakest out of the pack?

If you've watched docu's on lions and other big cats, they show them stalking, and waiting in the bushes, singling out either a young calf or wounded or struggling victim. You'll hardly ever see them just attacking a herd, since male wildebeests/bisons/buffalos do pose a threat.

[MRC_Hans]

Predators have a surpisingly narrow energy budget, so their survival depends on them having a high success-rate when hunting. They actively seek out weak prey. This has even made some prey animals evolve a communication-mode, where they signal to predators that they are too strong to be caught.

Thompson Gazelles are a prime item on the menu of Cheetas. When a Cheeta is stalking a flock of Thompson Gazelles, and is spotted (as in seen, since Cheetas are always spotted ;)), some of the Gazelles, instead of just taking flight, can be seen hopping along in a strage, stiff-legged mode. This hopping requires good, strong legs and an energy surplus, showing the Cheeta that those animals will not be an easy catch, and indeed an experienced Cheeta will very rarely try to cath on of them.

Obviously scavenger birds, even without extraordinary intelligence, should be able to learn to spot the behavioural pattern of a sick animal, which may soon be carrion.

BTW, even fish can do this; many of the lures you use to catch, especially salt-water fish, are simulating the look and movements of a sick or injured fish.

Hans

[Tricky]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans

Obviously scavenger birds, even without extraordinary intelligence, should be able to learn to spot the behavioural pattern of a sick animal, which may soon be carrion.

BTW, even fish can do this; many of the lures you use to catch, especially salt-water fish, are simulating the look and movements of a sick or injured fish.

Hans
I think that pretty much nails it, Hans. Plus, crows are extremely intelligent and adaptive birds who are outstanding at pattern recognition (it is said that they can count to four). Far and beyond just recognizing sick animals, they might also recognize that people in armor running towards each other means mealtime soon.

When I was in London, I took a tour of the Tower of London and there were a couple of ravens or "carrion crows" that had taken up permanent residence there. The story is that they hung around because they remember the executions. I suspect that they are now pets that are fed regularly because it makes a good story.

Also note that there are several kinds of crows with varying diets, although all are omnivorous.

[MRC_Hans]

A couple of crow stories:

This one, I'm sure most of you have seen: You are driving along a country road, and way ahead, a crow sits in your path, pecking at some roadkill. As you come closer, it looks up at you seveal times, but continue feeding till the appropriate moment, whereafter it walks to the side of the road, reaching safety just in time. after you pass you can see it in your mirror, walking back to continue its meal. The level of deliberation in this requires considerable intelligence.

I once had a Samoyed dog. They are pretty smart, too, as dogs go, BTW. He and crows would usually observe some kind of truce, pretending not to notice each other, but one day he spotted two crows sitting together some distance away, and probably feeling flippant that day, he charged towards them. They looked up, looked at each other, then one of them alighted, flew towards the dog, curved away and drew him with it, flying a couple of feet over the grass, and repeatedly looking back to ensure it kept a safe but constant distance. The crow flew in a large arch luring my dog back towards me, and as they got near, the dog broke off the chase, out of wind, and came back to me. The crow leisurely completed its low-flying circle, landed beside it's pal, who has simply been sititng and watching, not moving an inch, and ruffled its feathers, it's attitude distinctly saying (I might have imagined this part, of course): "That'll teach him. Your turn next time."

Hans

[Kell]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
"That'll teach him. Your turn next time."

LOL. Absolutely :D

There are a lot of crows right around where I live ( I can hear a few caws even as I type this ) and one of the things that always interests me about them is that, unlike the other birds in the area - seagulls, magpies and way too many pigeons - most of the time I encounter crows they're on the ground. And they're usually pecking at something. Crows are nosey gits: they'll peck anything. And if it doesn't peck back, they'll usually try to eat it.
When I get closer they'll watch me warily, but I have to get very close and move aggressively to provoke them to take flight, otherwise they just hop away. The other birds usually take flight as soon as I approach and they're not on the ground to begin with nearly so often.
Crows are shifty buggers, but I like 'em.

[EHocking]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Actually, that's not true. Researchers have shown that lions use different techniques for different prey, and they certainly select weak or wounded prey when the prey species is difficult or dangerous to take down. They may also take down a slower member if their intended prey outruns the other - after all, why pass up a good opportunity? - but the fact that they select a victim is very clear to researchers. Males, especially, tend to carefully select a victim when they hunt - which is usually in unnatural situations like preserves in the Americas and such. When in east Africa for 4 weeks we spent 2 on the Mara and had regular contact with 2 prides of lions (featured on the UK BBC "Big Cat Diary").

Of cheetah, leopard and lion - it was only the lions that actually looked at individuals in a car. This is the point where you realise that you are not in a zoo, but sitting 4ft away from 200kg or so of predator, protected only by an open Land Rover window.

As for crows? Most unlikely that they use smell to locate prey. Practically all birds have no or an extremely limited sense of smell. Exceptions are some tube-nose seabirds and the Turkey Vulture. Source (http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdbrain.html)

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
Completely uninformed opinion: One clue they might use is body stance and movement. "Hey, have you ever noticed that humans crawl on all fours and shortly thereafter show up dead?" How would they distinguish between someone taking a nap and a dead body in this case? If they indeed make that distinction, that is.

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by sf108
Do you mean the crows are circling because the body/animal is dead or is dying? If it's already dead, then I'm sure that can be attributed to the smell of decaying flesh, like others said. My question was more about their ability to anticipate death like vultures.If the target is dying, then I guess like Temp3st said, could be their ability to spot weaker targets.That doesn't fly with me. Crows don't seem to be predatory, they feed on the carcass which means they wait for the other animals to die. So weakness or strength of the feed seems irrelevant as the crow has nothing to do with the other animal's death.

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by FreeChile
How would they distinguish between someone taking a nap and a dead body in this case? If they indeed make that distinction, that is.
My (again) uninformed guess: If they poke him and he says "ow" and reacts violently, they conclude he's not about to die.

[FreeChile]

Another interesting question: Do crows, ravens or voltures feed on other crows, ravens or voltures? If not, why not? I guess the smell and sight would tell them that it is one of their own kind. But why would they care; the animal is dead and they feed on the dead. I read on Wickipedia that crows seem to have some kind of funeral for their dead crows. If true, this would tell us that they don't feed on their own kind.

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
My (again) uninformed guess: If they poke him and he says "ow" and reacts violently, they conclude he's not about to die. Your assumption, of course, is that they would poke a sleeping animal. Looking at this again, there may not be any need for them to actually poke them, they could simply look at a moving belly and realize the animal is breathing. Likewise, they may simply rely on sounds.

[hodgy]

A bit OT but I used to have a rescued Magpie as a pet (Crow family). It was great - really clever. It would spend most of the day in the woods at the back of our house but come back when you called its name. It would play like a dog or cat (favourite game being chasing a milk bottle top tied to a string). We even taught it tricks like we would scatter some matches on the floor and it would collect them all up in a neat pile.

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by hodgy
A bit OT but I used to have a rescued Magpie as a pet (Crow family). It was great - really clever. It would spend most of the day in the woods at the back of our house but come back when you called its name. It would play like a dog or cat (favourite game being chasing a milk bottle top tied to a string). We even taught it tricks like we would scatter some matches on the floor and it would collect them all up in a neat pile. Just curious. What and how did your Magpie eat?

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by FreeChile
Your assumption, of course, is that they would poke a sleeping animal. Looking at this again, there may not be any need for them to actually poke them, they could simply look at a moving belly and realize the animal is breathing. Likewise, they may simply rely on sounds.
Oh. Duh. *waps self with rolled-up newspaper of obviousness.*

[Thurkon]

Originally posted by jmercer
It's actually from a much older series of observations. Crows are seen on any battlefield, ranging back through recorded history. They're mentioned in chronicles of war predating Christ, in fact.

Crows are carrion eaters - like vultures, but much more numerous and widespread. It's not surprising that they would be the first ones to detect food.

Smell, probably…but there is speculation that some have a rough a capacity for learning, as does any mildly intelligent creature.

In Mary Stewart’s The Crystal Cave, Merlin sees crows circling above a battlefield before the battle begins, and theorizes that the crows learned to follow huge groups of people at the time, i.e. armies, as they had learned that such large groups of people often engage in activities that leave massive numbers of bodies in their wake.

I wonder if this is true…

[Jeff Corey]

Crows have more than a rough capacity for learning. In the lab, they readily learn to peck a key to get food. Then if a framework blocks their access to the key, they will use sticks to poke through the framework to press the key for food.
This "tool using" trait is not explicitly trained, they come up with it on their own.
Edited to add, cool video clip from Science http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/crow

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by Thurkon
Smell, probably…but there is speculation that some have a rough a capacity for learning, as does any mildly intelligent creature.

In Mary Stewart’s The Crystal Cave, Merlin sees crows circling above a battlefield before the battle begins, and theorizes that the crows learned to follow huge groups of people at the time, i.e. armies, as they had learned that such large groups of people often engage in activities that leave massive numbers of bodies in their wake.

I wonder if this is true… I find Mary Stewart's image unlikely. From the literature I have read today on crows, it appears some crows can't even pass through the skin with their beaks. They must therefore wait for the skin to begin to decompose or for other animals to perforate the skin of the carcass. This would make the time to wait to feast even longer. If Stewart's picture is right, then that would make crows among the most patient animals known. Also, as a result of that and the fact that their olfactory sense may be poor in some cases, their main source of nutrition is not from the carrion as the myths have led us to believe.

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by jmercer
It's actually from a much older series of observations. Crows are seen on any battlefield, ranging back through recorded history. They're mentioned in chronicles of war predating Christ, in fact.The Wickipedia article even mentions ravens in the context of the mythical flood (Noah's Ark and The Epic of Gilgamesh). It is thought that the raven didn't return because it found dry land. But an argument could be made that it may have just found enough to eat. After all, everything else would have been dead and rotting.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by FreeChile
I find Mary Stewart's image unlikely. From the literature I have read today on crows, it appears some crows can't even pass through the skin with their beaks. They must therefore wait for the skin to begin to decompose or for other animals to perforate the skin of the carcass. This would make the time to wait to feast even longer. If Stewart's picture is right, then that would make crows among the most patient animals known.
Um... wouldn't the swords, spears, arrows etc. take care of the skin perforation problem?

[EHocking]

Originally posted by FreeChile
Your assumption, of course, is that they would poke a sleeping animal. Looking at this again, there may not be any need for them to actually poke them, they could simply look at a moving belly and realize the animal is breathing. Likewise, they may simply rely on sounds. Crows will feed on a living animal - eyes first, I'm afraid. And the point made by another poster about a crow's beak not being strong enough to break hide/skin is got around by most avian carrion eaters (storks, vultures, corvids) by using the anus as the "choice" point of entry.

[Jyera]

Instead of perpetuating the concept that

"Crows anticipate death"

Regardless of the truth.
I think that it is far better to replace it with

"Crows anticipate a meal."

Then the next time a crow lands on the roof of a person's house, we wouldn't be thinking that someone in the house is going to die.

The senstence "Crows anticipate death." should be reserved for describing the crows when have the ability to predict their own death.

So I'll say:
"Crows don't anticipate death, neither their own nor of others."

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by EHocking
Crows will feed on a living animal - eyes first, I'm afraid. And the point made by another poster about a crow's beak not being strong enough to break hide/skin is got around by most avian carrion eaters (storks, vultures, corvids) by using the anus as the "choice" point of entry. Crows will be predators if the opportunity arises. They are jacks of all trades. Recently, we saw a crow catch and kill a starling right outside the office windows here.

Hans

[Tricky]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Crows will be predators if the opportunity arises. They are jacks of all trades. Recently, we saw a crow catch and kill a starling right outside the office windows here.

Hans
Man, if we could train crows to eat nothing but starlings, I'd be in the crow-raising business.

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by Tricky
Man, if we could train crows to eat nothing but starlings, I'd be in the crow-raising business. I doubt that they normally can. This was a youngster (although full-sized, it was still begging food from grown starlings) and it was caught in a corner with high walls. However, this only once more attests to the intelligence of crows, spotting such a situation and pouncing on it.

BTW, I said it caught and killed it. That is not quite precise; actually, it caught it and ate it. Sometime during the process, the starling died :eek:.

Hans

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
I doubt that they normally can. This was a youngster (although full-sized, it was still begging food from grown starlings) and it was caught in a corner with high walls. However, this only once more attests to the intelligence of crows, spotting such a situation and pouncing on it.

BTW, I said it caught and killed it. That is not quite precise; actually, it caught it and ate it. Sometime during the process, the starling died :eek:.

Hans
Thank you for that lovely image... We need a sick smiley.

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
Thank you for that lovely image... We need a sick smiley. I think today's sick smiley goes to EHocking for his image of the crow eating of the anus. What would Hollywood do if it got hold of that!

[hodgy]

Originally posted by FreeChile
Just curious. What and how did your Magpie eat?

When it was very young we fed it dog-food. Later we caught worms and things for it and when it was old enough to fly it pretty much fed itself (i.e. it would come back in the evenings without us needing to feed it properly - just treats).

Our neighbours had a pond and at the time of year when the tadpoles-just-turned-mini-frogs leave the pond en-masse the magpie went over there and ate loads of the little frogs. I think it would eat pretty much anything comprised largely of protein.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by hodgy
When it was very young we fed it dog-food. Later we caught worms and things for it and when it was old enough to fly it pretty much fed itself (i.e. it would come back in the evenings without us needing to feed it properly - just treats).

Our neighbours had a pond and at the time of year when the tadpoles-just-turned-mini-frogs leave the pond en-masse the magpie went over there and ate loads of the little frogs. I think it would eat pretty much anything comprised largely of protein.
Oh yeah? Well I once had a pet crow that was so smart that it learned to hover and eat out of the hummingbird feeder with a soda straw.

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by Tricky
Oh yeah? Well I once had a pet crow that was so smart that it learned to hover and eat out of the hummingbird feeder with a soda straw.
:eek: That's pretty impressive, and pretty close to a boundary in my head. Are you really being serious?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
:eek: That's pretty impressive, and pretty close to a boundary in my head. Are you really being serious?
LOL. It should have been well on the otherside of that boundary. No matter how smart a crow is, it can't "learn to hover". I was just getting amused by the "my crow is smarter than your crow" stories, or shall we call it "oneupcrowship".

[Bronze Dog]

Okay, that's what I was thinking it really was, but I generally try not to underestimate the intelligence of animals, despite what lies you may have heard from Ian.

[hodgy]

I'm not trying to boast about my magpie - I find things like that interesting so I assume other people might too. I would like to hear other people's clever bird stories. I've got stories about other birds that we raised but the magpie was the cleverest.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by hodgy
I'm not trying to boast about my magpie - I find things like that interesting so I assume other people might too. I would like to hear other people's clever bird stories. I've got stories about other birds that we raised but the magpie was the cleverest.
I'm just ribbing ya, hodgy. I like your story. But I seem to find almost everything funny. See my sig.

[Bronze Dog]

Laughter and tears are both responses to frustration and exhaustion. I myself prefer to laugh, since there is less cleaning up to do afterward...
-----Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Laughing has its risks, though. I once laughed so hard... well, I'd rather not go into that story, on second thought.

[sf108]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
Laughing has its risks, though. I once laughed so hard... well, I'd rather not go into that story, on second thought.

I laughed at this pretty hard:

http://www.kingofmma.com/sergei.gif

[chance]

Another couple of crow stories

The crows in our area actively hunt rainbow lorikeets, usually they gang up on one individual and wear it down to the point of exhaustion. If the lorikeet tries to make a break for it, it’s quickly targeted using a sort of tag team. It does not appear to be very successful for the crows, as the lorikeet often finds a gap and flies very low and very fast out pacing the crows.

Crows on their own often get picked upon by smaller more agile birds, they stay on their tail and pester the living daylights out of them.
I once saw a bird actually teasing a crow by flying slowly in front, just as the crow was about to get a beak full, climb or turn to avoid, then, to rub salt into the already damaged pride and presumably tiring of the game, it whipped around and “predator suddenly became prey�.(tag your it).

[EHocking]

Originally posted by FreeChile
I think today's sick smiley goes to EHocking for his image of the crow eating of the anus. What would Hollywood do if it got hold of that! well, you DID ask...


but to make up for it http://uk.geocities.com/ehocking@btinternet.com/jref/vomit-smiley-020.gif


ETA: Oh.... apologies - I loaded this quickly, so had not seen the second half of the animation. During my lunchtime, too.

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by Tricky
Um... wouldn't the swords, spears, arrows etc. take care of the skin perforation problem?Indeed! But I still find Mary Stewart's image unlikely. I mean crows would have to be very, very smart to tell the difference between an army parading on the 4th of July and one about to engage in battle, or a mob of protestors for that matter.

[Soapy Sam]

Mary Stewart was talking about the 4th century AD, when any large group of men on the move probably implied trouble. Though the Crystal Cave series is deliberately poetic in style and never meant to be taken as a source of information. Crows are so ubiquitous in the British countryside that some would certainly be stirred into flight by a group of mounted men. (Though a mob of crows are usually, though not always, actually rooks).

I have seen crows , in scores, landing in trees on the edge of a hayfield a farmer was about to cut. (They are after grubs etc which are exposed by the cutting. They watch to see where the tractor is going. The farmer confirmed that it regularly happens that they will be on the fence waiting when he arrives to cut or turn hay, but never if he is spreading fertiliser.

I once saw a large number of crows in the Algerian sahara, lined up in single file, with their feet in cool water which was overflowing from a tank. It took them about twenty minutes to form up after the leak started. It was the presence of the crows that alerted us to the leak.

I'm pleased to see we have so many crow watchers here. I've always been fascinated and entertained by them. I also think they are rather handsome birds. I get quite huffy when people dismiss them as dark, sinister and scary.

[aargh57]

Free Chile,
Is the whole idea of crows following armies or following weak people in the desert that much different from seagulls following fishing boats? I don't see why you would discount it so much. How many parades/protests of thousands of people did they have back then? Besides, wouldn't parades last a relatively short time while an army be on the march for days?

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by aargh57
[B]Free Chile,
Is the whole idea of crows following armies or following weak people in the desert that much different from seagulls following fishing boats? I don't see why you would discount it so much. In the case of the seagulls, the odors from the boat may be sufficient to attract attention. This may include smells of the equipment from previous catches or the smell, sight, and sound of the baits. In this case is just like giving them a good meal, they'll keep coming for more.

How many parades/protests of thousands of people did they have back then? Besides, wouldn't parades last a relatively short time while an army be on the march for days?It is logical that after a few battles the birds would simply hang around. But consider that battles also occur in different locations.

I used parades and demonstrations as an example. In the case of major cities, we have a good number of people moving at the same time and usually in the same direction during rush hour. If we followed Stewart's image, I don't see why crows shouldn't leave their roosts in New York's central park to guard the behaviors of the millions of pedestrians in that city, unless we say that these birds have unusual skills. Also, why wouldn't they vigilate armies and artillery equipment during training in forts and camps throughout the world? I mean we have wars going on right now. So the association between moving armies and food, would still be there.

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
Mary Stewart was talking about the 4th century AD, when any large group of men on the move probably implied trouble. Though the Crystal Cave series is deliberately poetic in style and never meant to be taken as a source of information. Crows are so ubiquitous in the British countryside that some would certainly be stirred into flight by a group of mounted men. (Though a mob of crows are usually, though not always, actually rooks).I don't really think that Mary Stewart had that in mind. It is unlikely that her knowledge of 4th century animal behavior was at all accurate or relevant. Also, she lived during the 1900's and was very familiar with modern wars. So she probably projected her images of these wars into her novels. The crows in her novels are probably there simply for dramatic effect, coming from the image of the crow that we all seem to share, that of foretelling death. It is more or less like Teen Titans' character Raven, who is the spiritual one in the cartoon. Raven behaves nothing like a Raven, just like Stewart's crows, in that respect.

[Soapy Sam]

So far as I'm aware, Mary Stewart is still alive, though she must be well into her nineties. What I mean is that the books are written from the point of view of a well educated man of the time- albeit one gifted with "The Sight"and other magical abilities, to whom the world is a mix of magic and hard reality. I would never suppose that "Merlin's"beliefs reflect the author's.
The first three are an excellent fictional tale of Dark Age Britain , by the way. Darn good read for a winter's night by the fire.

Back on topic, I recently watched crows harassing grey squirrels, magpies and a buzzard, all of which I suppose are dangerous to their nests. They're better than any soap opera.

[aargh57]

Free Chile,

Just wanted to point out that most birds have a very poor sense of smell, so while they may very well be attracted to a fishing boat for the other reasons you mentioned (sounds and sight of the baits(although I think they probably recognize the boats themeselves as you will see gulls flying towards boats from a distance that they couldn't see the baits, not to mention the fact that often times the fishermen aren't putting the baits out yet and the gulls are still hanging around)) the smell is probably not one of them.

http://www.earthsky.com/shows/shows.php?t=20041002

[Tricky]

Originally posted by aargh57
Free Chile,

Just wanted to point out that most birds have a very poor sense of smell, so while they may very well be attracted to a fishing boat for the other reasons you mentioned (sounds and sight of the baits(although I think they probably recognize the boats themeselves as you will see gulls flying towards boats from a distance that they couldn't see the baits, not to mention the fact that often times the fishermen aren't putting the baits out yet and the gulls are still hanging around)) the smell is probably not one of them.

http://www.earthsky.com/shows/shows.php?t=20041002
[slight derail]
Apparently their sensory apparatus is quite different from mammals. When I was trying to keep squirrels out of my bird feeder, the bird store guy sold me some powdered hot pepper to mix in with the birdseed. Birds couldn't taste it, he assured me, but squirrels couldn't tolerate it. How true it was, I'm not sure, because I still got both birds and squirrels but fewer of both. I eventually stopped using it because it was too much of a pain-in-the-butt to mix it in every time I refilled the feeder.
[/slight derail]

[FreeChile]

Originally posted by aargh57
Free Chile,

Just wanted to point out that most birds have a very poor sense of smell, so while they may very well be attracted to a fishing boat for the other reasons you mentioned (sounds and sight of the baits(although I think they probably recognize the boats themeselves as you will see gulls flying towards boats from a distance that they couldn't see the baits, not to mention the fact that often times the fishermen aren't putting the baits out yet and the gulls are still hanging around)) the smell is probably not one of them.

http://www.earthsky.com/shows/shows.php?t=20041002 It may not even be food related but simply that they may be attracted to the movement of the boat or they may confuse it with a big fish--pretty much like dogs barking at and running after cars. In Spanish we say that dogs run after cars because they have a "cat" in the trunk. The word cat in Spanish is the same as the word for jack.

I'm just thinking of other possibilities besides the next meal idea. The simple reality is that we don't know why animals behave in a particular way in many cases.

[aargh57]

Chile,

I work on a ship and seagulls flock to fishing boats. They don't flock to pleasure craft or other boats of the same size and they do it before the boat is even out of the channel to start fishing. Dogs are domestic animals and although I don't know exactly why they chase cars I bet there is an explanation for it. Most wild animals are either lookin for food, sleepin, or makin babies. You really think that it's baffling why a bunch of seagulls flock around fishing boats? It's foooood!! What fish looks like a 75 foot fishing boat with wheelhouse 25 feet in the air? Why don't they flock around yachts?

[AmateurScientist]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
A couple of crow stories:

This one, I'm sure most of you have seen: You are driving along a country road, and way ahead, a crow sits in your path, pecking at some roadkill. As you come closer, it looks up at you seveal times, but continue feeding till the appropriate moment, whereafter it walks to the side of the road, reaching safety just in time. after you pass you can see it in your mirror, walking back to continue its meal. The level of deliberation in this requires considerable intelligence.


Hans,

I recently watched a television documentary about animal intelligence, and it included a short about a crow in NYC who likes walnuts. He gathers them and flies atop a crosspole holding a traffic light. He waits for approaching traffic, drops his walnut in front of an approaching car, and the car runs over the walnut, smashing it open.

The crow then flies down to the sidewalk, patiently waits for the pedestrian crosswalk light to turn green, then calmly walks to his walnut in the middle of the street, eats at it until the light turns red again, and calmly walks back to the sidewalk.

Intelligent indeed.

AS

[jambo372]

Crows certainly anticipate death.

I can testify.

My aunt's husband died in the Piper Alpha disaster years ago.
That very night a crow crashed into my aunt's window.

[Jyera]

Originally posted by jambo372
Crows certainly anticipate death.

I can testify.

My aunt's husband died in the Piper Alpha disaster years ago.
That very night a crow crashed into my aunt's window. I have no reason to doubt your integrity.

I certainly can understand you can testify that there is a co-incidence.

What else beyond that can you testify?

In what way do you think such an insight will be useful to me in future?

[WildCat]

Originally posted by hodgy
I'm not trying to boast about my magpie - I find things like that interesting so I assume other people might too. I would like to hear other people's clever bird stories. I've got stories about other birds that we raised but the magpie was the cleverest.
Several years ago my g/f and I were in Yellowstone and stopped to eat in one of the many picnic areas there. Suddenly, a very large crow (raven?) flew in and started walking towards us. It clearly was used to people giving it food at that spot, it showed no fear and its very large beak looked quite ferocious! It failed to scare us away from our food though, so it then opted for plan B. It hopped up on my car and proceeded to eat the dead bugs off the windshield and grill. It stopped for a few moments to admire itself in the side mirror.

Earlier in the day I had plucked a dead bat out of my grill I must have hit the night before, I wished I had left it there for the crow, it would have been quite a score!

[Jyera]

Originally posted by jambo372
Crows certainly anticipate death.

I can testify.

My aunt's husband died in the Piper Alpha disaster years ago.
That very night a crow crashed into my aunt's window. Yoda and Obiwan in Starwars are able to feel(anticipate?) the death of others.

I'm a fan of Starwars and Jedi Powers.

So I'm very sincerely interested in acquiring any Jedi like powers.

So despite some of my questions, which might seem very critical and demanding, I really and truely wish that there are ways to build Starwars like ability.

I recall your other account about knowing the death of premature baby.

I do not know how it might be possible. But may I even suggest that perhaps it is not that the crow anticipate death, but YOU.

Once again I sincerely want to know more.

[jambo372]

Originally posted by Jyera
Yoda and Obiwan in Starwars are able to feel(anticipate?) the death of others.

I'm a fan of Starwars and Jedi Powers.

So I'm very sincerely interested in acquiring any Jedi like powers.

So despite some of my questions, which might seem very critical and demanding, I really and truely wish that there are ways to build Starwars like ability.

I recall your other account about knowing the death of premature baby.

I do not know how it might be possible. But may I even suggest that perhaps it is not that the crow anticipate death, but YOU.

Once again I sincerely want to know more.

I tell a lie, it wasn't a crow that crashed into her window - it was a magpie. I couldn't have anticipated the death - it was before I came into being.

[Nucular]

Having pondered upon this previously, I had the thought that the crows probably weren't anticipating death on the battlefield at all: they were observing death, or at least observing individuals becoming disabled enough that they probably wouldn't put up a very good fight if one tried to eat his eyes. Once someone's dead or incapacitated, it's a waiting game until it's safe enough to have lunch - hence the circling or watching until the battle's died down a bit.

If only we still had hand-to-hand combat of this type, it would be fairly doable to test some hypotheses about whether they smell or see this incapacitation, whether it's death or posture they sense, whether they only start circling after someone's dead, etc.; but we don't have this type of thing really any more (thankyouverymuch modern warfare ;)). And although we could probably still test some of the battle ideas experimentally, no-one will because no-one can be bothered. Probably indirect evidence is already abundant, though.

But of course, the first question as regards any of these alleged phenomena is "do they?"

[Nucular]

Originally posted by Tricky
When I was in London, I took a tour of the Tower of London and there were a couple of ravens or "carrion crows" that had taken up permanent residence there. The story is that they hung around because they remember the executions. I suspect that they are now pets that are fed regularly because it makes a good story.In Mediæval to Early Modern times, victims of execution were left to rot, or their heads put on spikes outside the Tower. Obviously they don't hang around because they remember the executions - they weren't alive then, crows can't pass on that kind of information, and they'd be dumber than we know they are if they stuck around for 500 years 'just in case'.

It could simply be that a population moved down in that period for the easy pickings, and we see their descendents, just as my Scottish ancestors moved down to England for the work, and stayed here.

But there's a legend about the ravens at the Tower: that when the last raven leaves, the Tower will crumble and the monarchy will fall.

So here's my speculation:
1) This legend grew at the time heads were on spikes, because ravens made common appearances to gross people out by pecking out eyes and brains. Maybe the legend said kind of "the monarchy would fall if the executions stopped" (executions of this type being largely of alleged traitors).

2) The Royal Guard took it a bit seriously, or at least didn't want to tempt fate, and so when the executions dried up, continued to feed the ravens, to keep them there, and to keep the monarchy going.

3) It's become a semi-secret tradition that the Beefeaters/groundsmen/secret agents/whoever has to keep feeding the ravens, so the people never think the monarchy's in danger.

4) So the ravens stay because they're being fed, because of the legend.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by jambo372
I tell a lie, it wasn't a crow that crashed into her window - it was a magpie. I couldn't have anticipated the death - it was before I came into being. Jambo, sorry about your uncle, Piper Alpha was terrible, but how is this story any different from my hamster dying, and then in my grief I remember I stubbed my toe the previous day? Crow or magpie, equally unconnected.

[hodgy]

Originally posted by Nucular
In Mediæval to Early Modern times, victims of execution were left to rot, or their heads put on spikes outside the Tower. Obviously they don't hang around because they remember the executions - they weren't alive then, crows can't pass on that kind of information, and they'd be dumber than we know they are if they stuck around for 500 years 'just in case'.

It could simply be that a population moved down in that period for the easy pickings, and we see their descendents, just as my Scottish ancestors moved down to England for the work, and stayed here.

But there's a legend about the ravens at the Tower: that when the last raven leaves, the Tower will crumble and the monarchy will fall.

So here's my speculation:
1) This legend grew at the time heads were on spikes, because ravens made common appearances to gross people out by pecking out eyes and brains. Maybe the legend said kind of "the monarchy would fall if the executions stopped" (executions of this type being largely of alleged traitors).

2) The Royal Guard took it a bit seriously, or at least didn't want to tempt fate, and so when the executions dried up, continued to feed the ravens, to keep them there, and to keep the monarchy going.

3) It's become a semi-secret tradition that the Beefeaters/groundsmen/secret agents/whoever has to keep feeding the ravens, so the people never think the monarchy's in danger.

4) So the ravens stay because they're being fed, because of the legend.

Ravens were far more common in England several hundred years ago than they are today so it would not be unexpected to see them at the Tower, particularly when carrion (executions) might be available).

There is a legend that the Kingdom will fall if the ravens leave the Tower and on that basis the Yeomen of the Guard (Beefeaters) have for many years raised and fed the Tower ravens. They have cages to keep them in at night and their feathers are clipped to stop them flying off.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by hodgy
the Yeomen of the Guard (Beefeaters) have for many years raised and fed the Tower ravens. They have cages to keep them in at night and their feathers are clipped to stop them flying off. Wow, I didn't realise they took it quite that seriously - I only speculated they might feed them. But raising them, clipping their wings and keeping them in cages at night is more extreme than I imagined.

It's kind of cheating, isn't it - whichever god is in charge of making sure legends come true must be going "there must be a rule against this..."