Grandmother sues over Grand Theft Auto game.

[Ranb]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/27/game.lawsuit.ap/index.html

A woman upset that she bought the video game "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" for her 14-year-old grandson without knowing it contained hidden, sexually explicit scenes sued the manufacturer.....she bought the game in late 2004 for her grandson when it was rated "M" for mature, for players 17 and older.

So, this woman buys a violent video game rated M and gives it to her 14 year old grandson. So why is violence more acceptable to her than sex? I would be too embarrassed to complain about such a thing after knowingly giving my son a game, which depicts such graphic violence.

I read once, if you produce a movie showing a man cutting off a woman's breast, it gets an R rating, kiss it and it gets an X.

Ranb

[Manny]

Originally posted by Ranb
So why is violence more acceptable to her than sex? Because she, as a consumer, decided it was. The company deceived her. Whether her choice is a valid one is not the issue -- it was still her choice.

That said, I think the liklihood of damages here is slight. If Take Two is smart, they'll proactively offer an exchange of the old version for the now-being-produced new version to anyone who felt deceived -- they'll probably end up buying back about ten copies and it'll get them out of the papers.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by manny
Because she, as a consumer, decided it was. The company deceived her. Whether her choice is a valid one is not the issue -- it was still her choice.

That said, I think the liklihood of damages here is slight. If Take Two is smart, they'll proactively offer an exchange of the old version for the now-being-produced new version to anyone who felt deceived -- they'll probably end up buying back about ten copies and it'll get them out of the papers.

The company didn't entirely deceive her, the game was rated for 17-year-olds and over. She bought it for a 14-year-old so what right does she have to complain that it's contents aren't suitable? He wasn't old enough to play the game whatever its contents. If her grandson was 17, fair enough.

She sounds like an opportunist money-grabber.

[Manny]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
The company didn't entirely deceive her, the game was rated for 17-year-olds and over. She bought it for a 14-year-old so what right does she have to complain that it's contents aren't suitable? Actually, except for the AO rating the ESRB (http://www.esrb.com/esrbratings_guide.asp) has suggestions and leaves it to consumers to decide. Games in a certain (non-AO) category "may" be suitable for this or that group.

M-rated games "may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

AO-rated games "may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity."

The consumer here purchased a game which she believed may contain sexual content which in fact contained graphic sexual content. That's a textbook case of a tort of deception. Again, the damages in my estimation is limited to replacement of the product with a suitable substitute or, at worst, a refund. But it's still a tort.

[TragicMonkey]

Not to mention that the "shocking sexual content" is only available if you seek out and use a third-party modification.

Sounds to me like building or buying a descrambler so you can pick up the Spice channel on your television, then suing the cable company for distressing you with the content you went to some lengths to view despite their efforts to prevent you from doing so.

[Manny]

To me the analogy is more like the cable company includes a code in the box that would allow your kids to unlock the Spice channel at will and then not disclosing to cable customers that the code is "1234" and that every junior high student in the country knows it.

[Grammatron]

I wonder what lag she has to stand on if the content can only be unlocked on a PC version of the game and since she bought in "late 2004" it could only be the Play Station version of the game.

To me the analogy is more like the cable company includes a code in the box that would allow your kids to unlock the Spice channel at will and then not disclosing to cable customers that the code is "1234" and that every junior high student in the country knows it.

No.

It's like the cable company including code in the box that can unlock the Spice channel and all you have to do is pop open the box and rewire it a bit with a diagram from the Internet. And can only be done on "Cable Box-Delux" version.

[ReFLeX]

As far as I know, there is no game rated AO. Which should tell you something. Don't buy your kids games that are rated Mature! By the time they have the money to buy it for themselves they should be fine....

[TragicMonkey]

If the "M" rating is meant to be for 17 years old and up, then what does "Adult" mean? 18? Was the content so shocking that a 17 year old will be tramautized for life, but an 18 year old wouldn't be?

[Manny]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I wonder what lag she has to stand on if the content can only be unlocked on a PC version of the game and since she bought in "late 2004" it could only be the Play Station version of the game. I thought about that. The article implies that the PC version was issued in October of last year. If the article is in error on that point then screw her.


It's like the cable company including code in the box that can unlock the Spice channel and all you have to do is pop open the box and rewire it a bit with a diagram from the Internet. And can only be done on "Cable Box-Delux" version. Everything I've read about mods since first learning about this indicates that no hardware adjustment is needed. Installing a mod isn't much more difficult than installing a Firefox extension (which is to say, too difficult for an 85-year-old lady but a piece of cake for about 95% of teenagers). Is that impression in error? I'm more than willing to learn more and if appropriate change my opinion that the company has engaged in deception.

[David Carroll]

I can't back it up with a link just now but I do recall reading that a less explicit version was available on the PS2 edition.

I wonder just when the press and hysterical pols are going to pick up on the fact that it isn't just GTA that has these porn mods available. A Teen rated game, The Sims has one and I'm sure there are plenty of others. For a look at screenshots from the sims mod go to:

http://www.loveablan.com/experiments/sims/Naughty_SIMS.html

Be forewarned that there are very graphic images there.

It can be downloaded here (http://the-sims-downloads.com/downloads-cat-21.html).

*edited for an addition*

[Tmy]

This is in the San Andreas game. Thats only a year old!

Sounds like grama should be sued for buying an r rated game for a minor.

Next she'll buy a DVD of Resivor Dogs for the kid and then complain that its not a movie about dalmations.

[Manny]

Originally posted by David Carroll
I wonder just when the press and hysterical pols are going to pick up on the fact that it isn't just GTA that has these porn mods available. A Teen rated game, The Sims has one and I'm sure there are plenty of others. Right, but that's a different kind of mod and I hope the press picks up on that. The actual Sims program only has Barbie and Ken-doll level nudity. Even if one mods to remove the pixels there's nothing to see. The mods in those cases are changes to the actual programming (well, the graphics programming). In the case of GTA it seems to be different. The scenes were there -- included on the disk. One simply needed to "unlock" them.

To me there's a huge difference between making your graphics generator open so that people can add their own touches, some of which touches might be inappropriate for some users and actually including programming with merely a code needed to access it. Everyone knows that you can color naughty bits into a coloring book. They don't all know that there's a secret page of porn hiding behind the book jacket.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by manny
I thought about that. The article implies that the PC version was issued in October of last year. If the article is in error on that point then screw her.

GTA:SA for PC was released on 06/07/2005. The one that came out in October of last year was for Play Station 2.

Everything I've read about mods since first learning about this indicates that no hardware adjustment is needed. Installing a mod isn't much more difficult than installing a Firefox extension (which is to say, too difficult for an 85-year-old lady but a piece of cake for about 95% of teenagers). Is that impression in error? I'm more than willing to learn more and if appropriate change my opinion that the company has engaged in deception.

No you are correct, I was trying to correct your analogy sorry to have confuse you.

You are correct, it's not a difficult task for most teenagers who play computer games. However, it's still modifying the game past the intent of the developer and you are getting an unauthorized modification from a third party.

I think my rewiring cable box analogy works in that it may not be as simple as someone clicking an executable file, but clipping and saddering some wires together is not exactly brain surgery either if you have a good diagram.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I wonder what lag she has to stand on if the content can only be unlocked on a PC version of the game and since she bought in "late 2004" it could only be the Play Station version of the game.

No, the content can be unlocked in the Xbox and PS2 versions of the game as well. I've seen it running on the Xbox, the unlocking being achieved with a 'doctored' save file.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by manny
Actually, except for the AO rating the ESRB (http://www.esrb.com/esrbratings_guide.asp) has suggestions and leaves it to consumers to decide. Games in a certain (non-AO) category "may" be suitable for this or that group.

M-rated games "may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

AO-rated games "may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity."

The consumer here purchased a game which she believed may contain sexual content which in fact contained graphic sexual content. That's a textbook case of a tort of deception. Again, the damages in my estimation is limited to replacement of the product with a suitable substitute or, at worst, a refund. But it's still a tort.

Ah! So it's a guideline and not a law? I think in the UK the ratings system works differently then.

Even so, I still don't see why her being 'upset' should have a price other than a new copy of the game. Lawsuit this, lawsuit that.

[tkingdoll]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
No, the content can be unlocked in the Xbox and PS2 versions of the game as well. I've seen it running on the Xbox, the unlocking being achieved with a 'doctored' save file.

Is it any good?

And was I the only one to find the pics in the Sims link that David Carroll provided mildly arousing? :fg:

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
Is it any good?

It's nothing special. The characters are fully clothed for starters...

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne
No, the content can be unlocked in the Xbox and PS2 versions of the game as well. I've seen it running on the Xbox, the unlocking being achieved with a 'doctored' save file.

Exactly how do you doctor those files with standard Xbox and PS2?

[webfusion]

And was I the only one to find the pics in the Sims link that David Carroll provided mildly arousing?

Not any more so than the android female robot featured in the OP by RandFan in this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60261)

BTW, is there any mention of Repliee Q1 being 'anatomically correct'? With 31 actuators in her body, powered by a nearby air compressor, programmed to allow her to "move like a human", there are some interesting possibilities there.

But, I digress...

Back to the topic here...

What ever happened to JOUST?

[Mercutio]

My favorite part of all this was finding out about the whole thing on Good Morning America, where I not only found out what game it was, but roughly what the scene would look like, what websites to go to to get the conversion, and how difficult it would be.

All from newspeople who were shocked that such a thing existed.

Is there a way to find out how many hits those websites got in the minutes following the GMA broadcast?

[Ranb]

One of the big points I was trying to make is that this grandmother as well as a significant number of other Americans find graphic violence more acceptable than sexuality.

News people being shocked about sex in video games is just as believable as when they are shocked that music has "obscene" lyrics or that rifles are lethal past 100 yards. It is all an act they put on for ratings.

Ranb

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
And was I the only one to find the pics in the Sims link that David Carroll provided mildly arousing? :fg:

One of the people who runs that site, NautiBitz, is one of the greatest Spuffy smut writers ever. She wrote this fic with two Spikes and one Buffy. Frankly, I wasn't surprised to see that she was making Buffy and Spike Sims do naughty things.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Exactly how do you doctor those files with standard Xbox and PS2?

You don't - the codes and saves that unlock the material is created on a PC, and then transferred onto console media using cheat devices. They will then work on a standard Xbox and PS2.

[nightwind]

Nobody is going to be truamatized by San Andreas. The only ones doing the tramatizing in the Dumb A---- who tell everyone they are gong to be traumatized.

And the woman suing is doing it because she is a Dumb A--. and some num nut lawyer is trying to make a buck.

I think it interesting that the granny would see harm in a little sex scene, but probably none in the graphic violence. Think it says a lot about her. Idiot.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I wonder what lag she has to stand on if the content can only be unlocked on a PC version of the game and since she bought in "late 2004" it could only be the Play Station version of the game.



Not true. This is what blew Rockstar's claims that it was "user added content." The content can be accessed on the Playstation and XBox versions. It just involves a complicated procedure of inputting codes. If the "Hot Coffee" wasn't actually in the program, then it wouldn't be unlockable on the PS2 and XBox versions because it wouldn't be there.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/15/news_6129301.html (Warning: Will show you add first. Click on "Continue to Gamespot" link.)

There's Gamespot's work on it.


...
The Hot Coffee mod first surfaced last month, when the PC version of San Andreas was released. The mod, which is available on numerous Web sites, adds a bonus sex minigame as a reward for the numerous "girlfriend" missions in San Andreas.

...

According to its creators, the Hot Coffee mod merely unlocks hidden, preexisting code inside San Andreas. The game's publisher, Rockstar Games, appeared to vehemently--but carefully--deny that charge in a statement earlier this week. "So far we have learned that the 'Hot Coffee' modification is the work of a determined group of hackers who have gone to significant trouble to alter scenes in the official version of the game," the company said. "In violation of the software user agreement, hackers created the 'Hot Coffee' modification by disassembling and then combining, recompiling and altering the game's source code."

Rockstar's statement also claimed that the mod was the product of complex technical tampering. "Since the 'Hot Coffee' scenes cannot be created without intentional and significant technical modifications and reverse-engineering of the game's source code, we are currently investigating ways that we can increase the security protection of the source code and prevent the game from being altered by the 'Hot Coffee' modification," read the statement.

However, Rockstar Games' argument has been undermined by an increasing number of reports that claimed the sex minigame is in the PlayStation 2 version of San Andreas. Since the PS2 version comes on an unmoddable DVD, it cannot have any content added to it, although cheat codes--created either by the publisher or third parties--can unlock preexisting code on the disc. While devices such as GameShark and Action Replay Max can tweak preexisting variables in system memory with cheats, they cannot inject new models, animations, and/or code into a game.

To prove or disprove rumors that the PS2 San Andreas contains a sexually graphic minigame, GameSpot decided to test the cheat codes circulating around the Web on a sealed, first-edition copy of San Andreas. After acquiring the "Uncensored Hot Coffee" codes from the respected tech-blog Kotaku, we entered them into an easily obtainable Action Replay Max cheat device. After entering the "Enable all Girlfriends" cheat, we began the game and then gave CJ maximum sex appeal, via a cheat from GameFAQs that requires no external code.

After saving, our test editor had Carl visit the house of his nearest girlfriend, Denise in Los Santos. Carl then took Denise on a series of dates to the nearest bar. After a few complications--including being busted for two-timing by another of CJ's girlfriends--we completed a fourth date with Denise, after which she invited us into her house for "coffee."

The next screen proved that the PlayStation 2 edition of the game does indeed include a sexually graphic minigame, which plays almost exactly the same as the Hot Coffee mod. It begins inside a bedroom with Denise, wearing only a pink thong and a cutoff T-shirt bearing the Rockstar logo, performing simulated fellatio on CJ, who is fully clothed in jeans and a "wife beater"-style tank top.

...

Given that the minigame is about as raunchy as an episode of Sex and the City, cannot be accessed without entering a long string of cheat codes, and takes several hours of effort to access, charges that San Andreas is "pornographic" may seem extreme to some. However, its existence does appear to contradict Rockstar Games' carefully worded statement blaming hacker mischief for the existence of the Hot Coffee mod.


So the Spice channel example given, in the case of the console versions at least, is also fairly innacurate.

[LostAngeles]

Oh and in other news, Mr. Jack Thompson is on a roll...

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html

Sims2 is a "pedophile's paradise."

:eyeroll:

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Not true. This is what blew Rockstar's claims that it was "user added content." The content can be accessed on the Playstation and XBox versions. It just involves a complicated procedure of inputting codes. If the "Hot Coffee" wasn't actually in the program, then it wouldn't be unlockable on the PS2 and XBox versions because it wouldn't be there.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/15/news_6129301.html (Warning: Will show you add first. Click on "Continue to Gamespot" link.)

There's Gamespot's work on it.



So the Spice channel example given, in the case of the console versions at least, is also fairly innacurate.

I disagree, this experiment required a "Action Replay Max" which is a 3rd party product that manupulates the code. I still think my analogy is accurate in that you are slightly modifying the use of the existing produc with out adding anything new to it.

Essentially if all you have is PS2 and the game. There is absolutely no way you can access that.

[nightwind]

It is the nutcases like Thompson that cause the true harm in society.

The stuff about the nudity in the Sims is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.

And I have seen the Sims with blur removed, and it is still one of the mildest games I have seen. Nudity? Big f------- deal.

The game industry needs to stand strong against wackos like Thompson, and other members of the psychologically impaired who would like to put a video camera on your head.

It is he and others like him who are the true danger to society.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I disagree, this experiment required a "Action Replay Max" which is a 3rd party product that manupulates the code. I still think my analogy is accurate in that you are slightly modifying the use of the existing produc with out adding anything new to it.

Essentially if all you have is PS2 and the game. There is absolutely no way you can access that.

Hmm... Granted then. I see your point. I wonder if this case might have any precedent for this, then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys%2C_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America%2 C_Inc.

...
Galoob manufactured a product called Game Genie, which allowed users to modify video games by entering in certain codes. (For example, a code might make the player invincible by replacing the user's health number with an extremely large number.) Nintendo, which sold a video game system and video games that could be modified by Game Genie, sued Galoob for copyright infringement, arguing that Game Genie made a derivative work, violating Nintendo's copyright in their video game.

...

As the district court wrote, "Having paid Nintendo a fair return, the consumer may experiment with the product and create new variations of play, for personal enjoyment, without creating a derivative work."


Since the consumers have already paid Rockstar, does "Hot Coffee" count as being under the ... thingum of that ruling? I'd call it a "vartiation of play."

[tracer]

manny wrote:
The consumer here purchased a game which she believed may contain sexual content which in fact contained graphic sexual content.
Then, later, Ian Osborne wrote:
It's nothing special. The characters are fully clothed for starters...
So, then, how does this qualify as "graphic sexual content"? They have simulated blowjobs in R-rated movies, fer cryin' out loud.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by manny
To me the analogy is more like the cable company includes a code in the box that would allow your kids to unlock the Spice channel at will and then not disclosing to cable customers that the code is "1234" and that every junior high student in the country knows it.

1234? Do you have any idea how hard this was to hack, manny? Nobody ever would've found it if there weren't a PC version available to reverse engineer first.

[Aoidoi]

As an interesting aside, X-Play implied very, very strongly that they thought the whole thing was a marketing gimmick to coincide with the XBox release of the game. Not sure if I buy that, but it's an interesting thought. Sure got the game back in the news.

Slashdot's opinion seemed to be largely that it was a proposed mini-game that was cut due to the realization that it'd get an AO rating, but instead of removing the code they were lazy and just commented out the call for it. That I'd certainly buy. Means the hack on a PC is pretty trivial, too.

As mentioned, the only "easy" way to get access is on the PC version with a downloaded crack for the game. On the PS2 or XBox you need some form of mod chip or third party product to mod it. Which is far, far more complicated.

And I have to say, a game in which killing police officers is required, and running people over with a car is part of the fun, I have a little difficulty with the concept that it's the totally consensual sex that's the offensive part.

[tracer]

Originally posted by Aoidoi
And I have to say, a game in which killing police officers is required, and running people over with a car is part of the fun, I have a little difficulty with the concept that it's the totally consensual sex that's the offensive part.
Never underestimate a stodgy grandmother's Victorianism.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by tracer
manny wrote:

Then, later, Ian Osborne wrote:

So, then, how does this qualify as "graphic sexual content"? They have simulated blowjobs in R-rated movies, fer cryin' out loud.

If those sex scenes happened in a live-action movie it would never go beyond an R rating.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by LostAngeles
Hmm... Granted then. I see your point. I wonder if this case might have any precedent for this, then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys%2C_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America%2 C_Inc.



Since the consumers have already paid Rockstar, does "Hot Coffee" count as being under the ... thingum of that ruling? I'd call it a "vartiation of play."

Interesting find!

I would say probably, I would also say that since it would count as modification it falls outside Rockstar's responsibility.

But since I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV, I have no idea how right I am :)

[StaticEngine]

Speaking as someone who has been a Video Game Developer for over six years, I find this whole situation laughable.

Hacking the executable game code is very, very difficult, although once someone does so, and releases a tool which does all the hard hacking and unlocking on it's own, yes, it is easy to access stuff that shouldn't be available in an off-the-shelf game.

Certain political people are going way too far in pushing their misguided points. They should shut the hell up and worry about more important issues, unless this is the only issue they can tackle, in which case I posit they're unqualified to hold their position and should immediately resign.

Violence in video games is prevelant because that's what sells. Personally, I don't like it that much, especially the realistic human violence. I'd prefer plot, and story, and emotional involvement. I don't even mind sex in video games, mostly because I think it's funny. In the end, it's all based on what's marketable, and our media and society has convinced consumers that violence is cool, plot and story are dull and meaningless, bright flashy things are worthy of attention, and sex is only acceptable when it's vaguely titilating or for making babies, never when it's even remotely explicit or even cartoonlike. Like every other industry, video games are driven by consumer demand, and if consumers keep buying ultraviolent games, then that's what the industry will make.

There are plenty of cool games out there that are not hyperviolent, and I wish more parents would buy them for their kids and even teenagers, and I wish more teens were interested in these kinds of games. Casual games (Bejeweled, Poker), Sim Games (SimCity 4, Roller Coaster Tycoon), Real Time Strategy Games like Homeworld 2, Racing games like GT or Forza Motorsport, are all great games. In addition to being deeply entertaining and, in the case of Homeworld, rich in plot and story, they develop more critical reasoning and planning skills than "shoot the cop as fast as possible." I'm sure it's easy for the sensationalists to paint all games with the same brush, but instead of branding all video games as universally evil, they should point people in the direction of games that are better for people.

After all, video game development is a multi-Billion dollar a year industry, and I'm sure the politicans enjoy the high employment and tax revenue created by this industry.

[Jim Lennox]

Galoob manufactured a product called Game Genie...

If I remember rightly Nintendo argued that the device changed the intended gaming experience and the defence was that just by turning down the volume you were altering the game experience.

[ReFLeX]

Originally posted by Aoidoi
Slashdot's opinion seemed to be largely that it was a proposed mini-game that was cut due to the realization that it'd get an AO rating, but instead of removing the code they were lazy and just commented out the call for it. That I'd certainly buy. Means the hack on a PC is pretty trivial, too.

This comment made me realize a fact I know. Grand Theft Auto 3 and I believe Vice City for PS2 also had an extra file on the disk called "american.gxt":

If you place the PS2 version of GTA3 in a computer and look around on the disc you may find a file called "american.gxt". If you open it in a text editor you will find all sorts of gobbeldy-gook. But if you manage to clean out some of the weird symbols, you may find some interesting stuff.
Stuff like text from missions and phone calls that were abandoned in the early stages of development but were left within this file because the programmers could slow down the progress of creation if they tried to remove it.
I copied some of the best stuff and cleaned it up so they can be presented...
http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/grand_theft_auto_3_j.txt
Some alternate versions of cutscene dialogue from the game follow. Who knows what the rest of code is? Verrrry interesting.

ETA: I've confirmed there is also an "american.gxt" on the Vice City disk. Here is a conversation from in the file that never happened in the game:Kent: "Hey there Tommy, you're gonna love me mate. A little birdy told me that Vice City SWAT Division has a deposit box at a certain rather large banking establishment, where they keep all the bribes they've taken over the years, like some kind of old boys' retirement fund. Of course, if this information should ever help you acquire any of that cash, I guess you'd feel obliged to push some of it my way?"
Tommy: "I'll bear that in mind, thanks Kent."
Kent: "It's Paul. I'm from Kent, near London, you prat."
Tommy: "My provincial English geography ain't what it was." from this faq (http://faqs.ign.com/articles/491/491587p1.html)

I don't know much about the San Andreas mod but I sense key similarities here. Most likely the San Andreas file was the first one that was worth mining...