Jumper on the Bridge and shouting "Do IT!"

[Dancing David]

Last week was my week off as a crisis intervention counselor, it is a perk that I get one week out of four off!

While I was at home I heard a news story that there had been a person a.ka. 'the jumper' who was threatening to throw themselves off a very large bidge, most likely falling nintey feet and doing themselves serious harm. The next day I checked in with my boss to see what had happened and fortunately a police officer was able to talk to the individual and convince them not to jump, and to go to the ER instead.(Which is good, because they had a medical emergency like a major heart attack within five minutes of thier arrival at the ER).

My boss said that the disturbing part of the story was that drivers passing by on the bridge kept yelling "DO IT !" to the jumper. This really disturbs me, I wonder if people saw someone about to knife someone if they would yell the same thing. If it was thier brother or sister on the bridge would they run up and give them a shove?

edited for the usual typos and to create new ones

[roger]

People are brutal. I hate them all sometimes. We see it on this website everyday. Someone posts with a very obvious psychological disorder (like they see devil's in jpgs) and they get razzed, harassed, called names, etc. It just makes me deeply sad sometimes. So I post in cupcake threads instead.
And of course, that post was started as a way to insult another poster on here, so egg is on my face too. *blah*

[Grammatron]

Is the person just standing there creating a traffic jam and probably wouldn't jump in the first place? I'd think about it.

Think I'm an a**hole? Well I'm just being honest, because that person could be destroying lifes too where someone might get fired for being late or not get to court in time, etc. It's not so black and white.

[RandFan]

I find it disturbing. :(

[slingblade]

I wish there were plain yes or no options, without the supposed reasons attached.

I vote just plain "no." I've got my own crap to deal with.

[Kerberos]

I just read today's Dilbert (http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/) . It's funny in a comic, in reality it's disgusting.

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Is the person just standing there creating a traffic jam and probably wouldn't jump in the first place?

Yes. Some of the people may have been saying it out of frustration rather than perversion. Not that saying it is ever appropriate.

[Oleron]

"Do I T" ? Shameful.

I mean, encouraging an obviously disturbed individual into a career in computers.

That'll only make him worse.:p

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Dancing David

My boss said that the disturbing part of the story was that drivers passing by on the bridge kept yelling "DO IT !" to the jumper. This really disturbs me, I wonder if people saw someone about to knife someone if they would yell the same thing. If it was thier brother or sister on the bridge would they run up and give them a shove?

I think the bold area gives a clue. People passing in cars (or standing watching in large groups) are not 'associated' with the event, are effectively anonomyous, and suffer no consequences for their actions....so some act quiet differently than they might if in company of those who would disapprove/challenge them.

Just something else humanity's been trying to grow out of for a few millenia--no sign yet we're making much progress.

[delphi_ote]

"The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Schenck v. U.S.

Not sure if they're abetting a crime, but they are certainly intentionally endangering someone's life. Definitely a crime.

[geni]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
Not sure if they're abetting a crime, but they are certainly intentionally endangering someone's life. Definitely a crime.

Really? Can you show evidence that yelling "do it" is going to increase the chance of that person jumping?

[BPSCG]

I got stuck in a traffic jam once when a guy was threatening to jump off the bridge in front of me. It was a steamy hot August afternoon shortly after I'd moved to the D.C. area from upstate NY, owning a car without A/C.

Eventually, everyone shut off their engines and started walking around (this was before the days of cell phones, laptops, PDAs, IPods, and the like to keep one amused) and chatting. We knew it was a jumper ahead of us because the 24-hour radio news station was covering the story.

Quite a few of us did a lot of grumbling:
"Look, jump or don't jump; just make up your goddam mind..."
"Somebody gimme five bucks and I'll go push him..."
"Hell, I'll push him for free..."

But despite the disgruntlement, nobody was yelling "Jump!" We were annoyed as hell, but not to the point of losing our reason.

[Manny]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
Not sure if they're abetting a crime, but they are certainly intentionally endangering someone's life. Definitely a crime. There are only seven ways to get emergency equipment from Brooklyn or Queens to Manhattan or back. Some of these are miles apart. The person intentionally endangering someone's life is the would-be jumper.

That doesn't mean I condone encouraging people to jump -- I don't. But let's be clear. The selfish one in virtually all cases of public-eye "attempted" suicides is the star of the show not the heckler.

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
Not sure if they're abetting a crime, but they are certainly intentionally endangering someone's life. Definitely a crime.

They're only abetting a crime if suicide is considered a crime in the respective juristiction.
And as geni said, by yelling "do it!" you're not actively endangering someone's life. It can be, however, a crime for itself: In Switzerland it's criminal to assist or entice somebody to commit suicide*, even though (attempted) suicide isn't considered criminal.

*caveat: "...from a selfish motive" - passive euthanasia is considered legal here

[Freakshow]

We had something like that happen in this area not too long ago. The person held up traffic on THE major highway through the city for HOURS.

I wasn't there, fortunately. The news says that people were yelling at the person to jump, or to make up their mind. If I was there, I wouldn't have been yelling to the person to jump. But I can understand the frustrations of the people who did. Those comments came from the frustration of this person holding up traffic.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Is the person just standing there creating a traffic jam and probably wouldn't jump in the first place? I'd think about it.

Think I'm an a**hole? Well I'm just being honest, because that person could be destroying lifes too where someone might get fired for being late or not get to court in time, etc. It's not so black and white.

Well, at least I think you're an honest A-hole. Still, I can't equate a person in such emotional pain that he is at the point of taking his own life with someone losing a job or not getting to court on time - suicide destroys several lives (family and friends of the person committing suicide) while losing a job or not making it to court on time is a mere inconvenience.

Which brings to mind a joke I recently heard along these same lines.
_________

A man is driving through Washington D.C. and runs into a big traffic jam. Cars are backed up for miles. A policeman is walking between the rows of traffice and the man rolls down his window and asks the officer what's going on.

"Oh, President Bush is depressed and is blocking traffic with his motorcade and is threatening to douse himself with gasoline and set himself ablaze," says the cop.

"Wow! That's pretty bad," says the motorist.

"Yeah," says the cop, "he's pretty depressed that the war in Iraq isn't going all that well, people are complaining about the economy, the environment, the torture scandals, the Plame/Rove thing and he just feels that no one likes him, so we're taking up a collection for him."

"A collection? Hmmm, how's THAT going?"

"Not too bad," says the cop, "We've already got six gallons and people are still siphoning!"

[Ladewig]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
Not sure if they're abetting a crime, but they are certainly intentionally endangering someone's life. Definitely a crime.

Well, if the poice are trying to talk the person down, then yelling "do it" is interferring with police activity. Still, I'd want to balance that with the first amendment. I say let the drivers passing by yell what they will. However if someone walked up and started yelling "jump" so loud that the police could not do their job, I'd consider charges.

[Tmy]

I'd say "do it". The guy threatening to jump is a would be murderer. So what if hes killing himself. You have a problem with heckling a would be murderer?

[EagleEye]

Interesting discussion. I am, so far, one of the TWO people who answered that top "YES" answer.

I have seen way too many pathetic people who claim to be suicidal and are doing it to just get attention.

In my time on the internet, I've spent a lot of time chatting... especially when I was in the dating scene. Every few months, you'd find some big deal going on in a chat room where some chick was threatening suicide and everyone was trying to talk her out of it.

I would sit, watch, see what was being said, and ultimately say "Ya know what, just go do it." "Quit bringing your drama to everyone else's life." "Do you really think it's fair for you to put this emotional burden on everyone else?" "Why are you asking for permission? It's your life... end it if you want, but quit being an attention whore." NONE of them were even remotely close to committing suicide. Trust me, if someone is feeling THAT BAD about themselves, they're going to do it privately where NO ONE can interfere and prevent it from happening. Whether on a bridge or on an online chatroom, public suicide attempts are merely cries for help. The person is not going to really go through with it, nor do they ever really INTEND to... someone yelling "DO IT!" may make them mad because... well... they're thinking "Why aren't people giving me the loving attention that I'm demanding of them by this act?"

This one girl I remember most vividly... lived in a small rural town in north central Iowa. I knew her first name and that she lived on a small farm just oustide of town. That's all I needed to know.

She didn't threaten it in a public chat... she did it while we were PMing each other. So I talk with her a bit... and while I'm chatting with her online, I'm also finding out personal info... what town she lives in... etc... I'm on the phone with the local police. THIS one I know is serious... you can tell by their "body language" (well, typing style... but it translates in to something of the same thing)... and the fact that she's not broadcasting her pain to everyone else in the chat room.

In the middle of talking with her she says "WTF? Someone's at the door... hold on."

The people at the door were, of course, police... they woke her parents... told them that someone had called about their daughter threatening suicide online... the girl got help from a professional. Her dad got my number from the police and called me a week later to thank me for helping them realize their daughter was in need of help.

That was the ONLY legitimate suicide threat I have ever dealt with... the rest were just bids for attention.

I have been suicidal 3 times in my life... twice while in high school. I had a hunting knife (the kind with the saw edge on the back of it) to my stomach, just below my sternum, pointed upwards at my heart... this was in my bedroom, in my parents basement when I was in junior high...

I didn't go threatening suicide... I was just going to DO IT without giving anyone (besides myself) a chance to stop me.

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by EagleEye
I didn't go threatening suicide... I was just going to DO IT without giving anyone (besides myself) a chance to stop me.

Ditto. I tried an overdose on sleeping pills when I was 17, and was discovere by my parents.

I answered the 'X' alternative, though. I would never shout 'jump'. I would, however, if possible, tried to persuade the person NOT to jump.

[LostAngeles]

Originally posted by Ryokan
Ditto. I tried an overdose on sleeping pills when I was 17, and was discovere by my parents.

I answered the 'X' alternative, though. I would never shout 'jump'. I would, however, if possible, tried to persuade the person NOT to jump.

deleted

[Seismosaurus]

I would shout "do it" for sure. "I saw a guy jump" is a more interesting story than "I saw a guy saying he would jump".

And why should I care about his life when he doesn't care about it himself?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by EagleEye
Interesting discussion. I am, so far, one of the TWO people who answered that top "YES" answer.

I have seen way too many pathetic people who claim to be suicidal and are doing it to just get attention.

In my time on the internet, I've spent a lot of time chatting... especially when I was in the dating scene. Every few months, you'd find some big deal going on in a chat room where some chick was threatening suicide and everyone was trying to talk her out of it.

I would sit, watch, see what was being said, and ultimately say "Ya know what, just go do it." "Quit bringing your drama to everyone else's life." "Do you really think it's fair for you to put this emotional burden on everyone else?" "Why are you asking for permission? It's your life... end it if you want, but quit being an attention whore." NONE of them were even remotely close to committing suicide. Trust me, if someone is feeling THAT BAD about themselves, they're going to do it privately where NO ONE can interfere and prevent it from happening. Whether on a bridge or on an online chatroom, public suicide attempts are merely cries for help. The person is not going to really go through with it, nor do they ever really INTEND to... someone yelling "DO IT!" may make them mad because... well... they're thinking "Why aren't people giving me the loving attention that I'm demanding of them by this act?"

This one girl I remember most vividly... lived in a small rural town in north central Iowa. I knew her first name and that she lived on a small farm just oustide of town. That's all I needed to know.

She didn't threaten it in a public chat... she did it while we were PMing each other. So I talk with her a bit... and while I'm chatting with her online, I'm also finding out personal info... what town she lives in... etc... I'm on the phone with the local police. THIS one I know is serious... you can tell by their "body language" (well, typing style... but it translates in to something of the same thing)... and the fact that she's not broadcasting her pain to everyone else in the chat room.

In the middle of talking with her she says "WTF? Someone's at the door... hold on."

The people at the door were, of course, police... they woke her parents... told them that someone had called about their daughter threatening suicide online... the girl got help from a professional. Her dad got my number from the police and called me a week later to thank me for helping them realize their daughter was in need of help.

That was the ONLY legitimate suicide threat I have ever dealt with... the rest were just bids for attention.

I have been suicidal 3 times in my life... twice while in high school. I had a hunting knife (the kind with the saw edge on the back of it) to my stomach, just below my sternum, pointed upwards at my heart... this was in my bedroom, in my parents basement when I was in junior high...

I didn't go threatening suicide... I was just going to DO IT without giving anyone (besides myself) a chance to stop me.

I've been hospitalized three times for suicidal tendencies. Two of those times I voiced my thoughts out loud, and it was only a matter of time before I carried them out.

My brother's best friend used to talk about suicide all the time. Then one day he shaved an electrical cord, drank it down with a glass of water and then plugged it in. His mother found his body. Nice, huh?

My wife had a friend who used to come over all the time and threaten suicide. I thought "attention whore", too. Then she put a plastic bag over her head and arranged for my wife to be the one to discover her body. I did not know it was even possible to suffocate oneself.

So you are basically full of it, EE. All talk of suicide should be taken seriously. I would bet my next paycheck that the vast majority of people who actually kill themselves talked about it to a lot of people first. Probably even made a few "attention seeking" attempts.

And chances are that if you actually have participated in a lot of online suicide conversations, at least one of them has gone ahead and done it by now. Or will. And you have no way of knowing which one.

[Luke T.]

I'm laughing right now. Thinking about the topic you started when you introduced yourself to the forum, EE. And my response to you in that topic. 19 more to go! :D

But seriously, no hard feelings.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by Ladewig
Well, if the poice are trying to talk the person down, then yelling "do it" is interferring with police activity. Still, I'd want to balance that with the first amendment. I say let the drivers passing by yell what they will. However if someone walked up and started yelling "jump" so loud that the police could not do their job, I'd consider charges.

While I agree that there is a lot of dangerous First Amendment ground here, I think it says a lot about our culture that you think interfering with police activity is more dangerous and criminal than intentially trying to push someone over the edge to kill themselves. Think about the state of mind that that person is in. They're at the lowest point of their life. Then think about the great message a crowd of people laughing and yelling "do it" sends to him about people and his life. That is awful. Not funny. Awful. We should do everything in our power to help people in a situation like that and come down hard on those who try to make it worse.

Originally posted by Tmy
I'd say "do it". The guy threatening to jump is a would be murderer. So what if hes killing himself. You have a problem with heckling a would be murderer?

So let's take your silly analogy at face value. You see a man about to murder someone, and you think yelling at them to "do it" is just fine? Genius you are not, Tmy.

Once again: "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." -Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Schenck v. U.S.


Originally posted by geni
Really? Can you show evidence that yelling "do it" is going to increase the chance of that person jumping?

You can't be serious. *sigh* Alright. I'll try and contact a professional suicide coucilor or researcher.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Dancing David

My boss said that the disturbing part of the story was that drivers passing by on the bridge kept yelling "DO IT !" to the jumper. edited for the usual typos and to create new ones

How do you know (remember we are sceptics here) that they were not suggesting that he fornicate rather than jump. I hear "do it" I think of the nasty, not the drop. Don't you?

All of that said, methinks a perfectly reasonable interpretation (and one that restores faith in our fellow man) is that the crowds, loving as they doubtless are, were encouraging the guy to get laid in lieu of self destruction. Metaphorically pointing out the nice things in life while they were at it.

This is doubtless the true story and your OP created entirely needless angst amoung the JREF community. Your humble apology is haughtily accepted.


n.b. It occurs to me that any reference to "jumping" on the crowd's part was no doubt a further encouragement to "jump" some chicks bones. All loving and supportive, if a tad vulgar.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Seismosaurus
And why should I care about his life when he doesn't care about it himself? Suicide is often the result of too much pain and stress and not enough coping mechanisms. It's not usually a casual consideration but an attempt to end suffering. We know that given enough stress and pain all people will break, period.

I don't bear you any ill will Seismosaurus and I really do understand your sentiment. We don't all view the world the same. I have been in terrific emotional pain and suffering and I did not know how I was going to cope. My thoughts were dark and the possibility became very real. Fortunately someone did care about my life when I cared more about ending the pain by any means possible. That person BTW was a stranger. It's a funny thing about human nature that there exist people in society that do care about strangers.

This is to those that do, thanks.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by RandFan
This is to those that do, thanks.

Well said, RandFan.

[EagleEye]

Originally posted by Luke T. So you are basically full of it, EE. All talk of suicide should be taken seriously. I would bet my next paycheck that the vast majority of people who actually kill themselves talked about it to a lot of people first. Probably even made a few "attention seeking" attempts.

There's a big difference between the people that say "I'm gonna kill myself" in every day casual conversation (if you can call such converstion "casual" at all), and the actual "HEY EVERYONE, I'M STANDING ON THIS LEDGE 100 FEET FROM A HARD LANDING, AND I'M GOING TO JUMP! EVERYONE LOOK AT ME! SEE? I'M HURTING HERE AND WANT ATTENTION!"

Talking suicide then ultimately doing it "one day" is not the situation here, nor was it the situation in the various chats where I've seen people. There's passively suicidal and actively suicidal. In every single example you gave, you'll notice that they ALL killed themselves without much fanfare or "attention whoring". Sure, they talked about it before doing it, but they weren't actively threatening to kill themselves right then and there, which is what we're talking about here.

You say I'm "full of it"... but you clearly missed the entire point. The people you described acted exactly as suicidal people act. When they're about ready to kill themselves, they don't go and advertise it (anymore)... they simply DO it.

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
You can't be serious. *sigh* Alright. I'll try and contact a professional suicide coucilor or researcher.

You still have to show how shouting "do it!" is endangering the would-be jumpers life.

Let me use an analogy: If I tell you to do something that's completely irresponsible, but still legal, am I endangering your life? Let's say, I tell you to fly out with an old and half broken plane instead of the plane you would usually take. You are fully aware of the fact that it's broken and likely to crash, but you still decide to take it instead of the one that's in good condition. Am I endangering your life?
The answer is of course "no". If you decide to do it, it's your choice and I'm in no way responsible for your acts - as long as you're aware of the facts and possible consequences surrounding it and act on intent. Likewise the suicidal jumper: As long as he knows that he'll most probably die after jumping and still wants to do it, you're not endangering his life by saying "jump!".
To endanger somebodys life there needs to be more than just a verbal impact. Somebody needs to create an immediate danger of life. Shouting "do it!" does not constitute an immediate danger of life for the jumper who's fully aware of the danger he exposes himself to.
Words can be enough to constitute aid and abet of a crime, but since we don't have a crime in the first place, the point is moot.

Yelling "do it!" to somebody who's about to jump is IMO highly immoral, but that doesn't make it necessarily illegal.

[EagleEye]

Originally posted by SwissSkeptic
You still have to show how shouting "do it!" is endangering the would-be jumpers life.

Let me use an analogy: If I tell you to do something that's completely irresponsible, but still legal, am I endangering your life? Let's say, I tell you to fly out with an old and half broken plane instead of the plane you would usually take. You are fully aware of the fact that it's broken and likely to crash, but you still decide to take it instead of the one that's in good condition. Am I endangering your life?
The answer is of course "no". If you decide to do it, it's your choice and I'm in no way responsible for your acts - as long as you're aware of the facts and possible consequences surrounding it and act on intent. Likewise the suicidal jumper: As long as he knows that he'll most probably die after jumping and still wants to do it, you're not endangering his life by saying "jump!".
To endanger somebodys life there needs to be more than just a verbal impact. Somebody needs to create an immediate danger of life. Shouting "do it!" does not constitute an immediate danger of life for the jumper who's fully aware of the danger he exposes himself to.
Words can be enough to constitute aid and abet of a crime, but since we don't have a crime in the first place, the point is moot.

Yelling "do it!" to somebody who's about to jump is IMO highly immoral, but that doesn't make it necessarily illegal.

Technically you are correct...

However, you fail to consider state of mind. If a person is "teetering on the edge", and the cause of the suffering that drove them TO the edge is a horrible feeling of hatred and indifference, then your own contribution of indifference may be all that's necessary to tip the scale.

And you COULD be tried and convicted of something-or-other, because the jumper is in a state of "extreme emotional distress" and you, through your ACT of purposely exacerbating that distress, caused them to act irrationally (suicide is, at its core, an irrational act)... you can be held liable for the act that you helped push them towards doing.

So technically you're correct, but also incorrect. :)

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally posted by EagleEye
Technically you are correct...

However, you fail to consider state of mind. If a person is "teetering on the edge", and the cause of the suffering that drove them TO the edge is a horrible feeling of hatred and indifference, then your own contribution of indifference may be all that's necessary to tip the scale.

And you COULD be tried and convicted of something-or-other, because the jumper is in a state of "extreme emotional distress" and you, through your ACT of purposely exacerbating that distress, caused them to act irrationally (suicide is, at its core, an irrational act)... you can be held liable for the act that you helped push them towards doing.

So technically you're correct, but also incorrect. :)

Very interesting answer. Do you have a cite for that? I'm wondering what crime exactly you would convicted of.

[geni]

Originally posted by EagleEye
Technically you are correct...

However, you fail to consider state of mind. If a person is "teetering on the edge", and the cause of the suffering that drove them TO the edge is a horrible feeling of hatred and indifference, then your own contribution of indifference may be all that's necessary to tip the scale.


Or they could decide to stay alive to piss you off. People are strange.

[EagleEye]

Originally posted by geni
Or they could decide to stay alive to piss you off. People are strange.

Actually, that has been the reaction I have seen in every single instance of me being the one shouting "Fine, just go ahead and do it then!"

But it's not them "not doing it to piss you off"... it's you calling their bluff. Again I state: If you're announcing your impending suicide to the world, chances are you're not really wanting to go through with it, and are merely an attention whore.

The people who are really serious do it... they do it alone so they can't be stopped. They do it quickly so they feel little or no pain. They do it without seeking attention because attention is not what a truly suicidal person craves... What good is all that attention when you're dead? It serves no purpose other than as a "backlash" effect to those that have hurt you. To total strangers? Bah... doesn't mean a thing.

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally posted by EagleEye
Again I state: If you're announcing your impending suicide to the world, chances are you're not really wanting to go through with it, and are merely an attention whore.


Got any evidence to back your assertion?

[EagleEye]

Originally posted by SwissSkeptic
Got any evidence to back your assertion?

Not yet, but I'll go looking for some tomorrow... I have to get to bed.

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally posted by Tmy
I'd say "do it". The guy threatening to jump is a would be murderer. So what if hes killing himself. You have a problem with heckling a would be murderer?

Murder is a very specific legal term that doesn't include suicide. (Attempted) suicide is illegal in some jurisdictions but even there it's a completely different offence than murder, with a much lighter sentence. There's really no way a suicide can be compared to a would-be murderer.

[bigred]

Originally posted by roger
People are brutal. I hate them all sometimes. We see it on this website everyday. Someone posts with a very obvious psychological disorder (like they see devil's in jpgs) and they get razzed, harassed, called names, etc. It just makes me deeply sad sometimes. What he said. Just another example of how grossly desensitized we have become as a species and how tragically blurred the distinctions between reality and "entertainment" (man do I use that term loosely) are, to the point of bizarro.

I think we should come up with a word to replace the word "humane," because quite often human beings are anything but. Look, there's someone who is so sad and pained and miserable they're looking to end their lives.....how funny, let's laugh and sneer at him! Or better yet, hey he's making me sit in traffic a little....how dare he? Let's egg him on! Me being late is more important than a person's life, after all.

:hurl:

[Seismosaurus]

Originally posted by RandFan
Suicide is often the result of too much pain and stress and not enough coping mechanisms. It's not usually a casual consideration but an attempt to end suffering. We know that given enough stress and pain all people will break, period.

I don't bear you any ill will Seismosaurus and I really do understand your sentiment. We don't all view the world the same. I have been in terrific emotional pain and suffering and I did not know how I was going to cope. My thoughts were dark and the possibility became very real.

I've was there myself once upon a time - even contemplated suicide myself. Got as far as researching which method was best (don't ever overdose on paracetamol, people).

Fortunately someone did care about my life when I cared more about ending the pain by any means possible. That person BTW was a stranger. It's a funny thing about human nature that there exist people in society that do care about strangers.

Oh, I do care about strangers IF they care about themselves. If somebody is in terrible pain, physical or emotional, they will get every ounce of sympathy I can give them, along with whatever help I can spare - but only if they are prepared to actively try and help themselves.

But people who have given up, I have no sympathy for.

[Checkmite]

There is absolutely no way of knowing whether a particular jumper is "real" or an "attention grabber". Therefore just shut up, get on your cell phone, and explain the situation to your boss. You can't be fired for being stopped (in essence) by the police. And if your boss seems to think so, simply go to court and win. Come on people, really.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by SwissSkeptic
You still have to show how shouting "do it!" is endangering the would-be jumpers life.

Let me use an analogy: If I tell you to do something that's completely irresponsible, but still legal, am I endangering your life? Let's say, I tell you to fly out with an old and half broken plane instead of the plane you would usually take. You are fully aware of the fact that it's broken and likely to crash, but you still decide to take it instead of the one that's in good condition. Am I endangering your life?
The answer is of course "no". If you decide to do it, it's your choice and I'm in no way responsible for your acts - as long as you're aware of the facts and possible consequences surrounding it and act on intent. Likewise the suicidal jumper: As long as he knows that he'll most probably die after jumping and still wants to do it, you're not endangering his life by saying "jump!".
To endanger somebodys life there needs to be more than just a verbal impact. Somebody needs to create an immediate danger of life. Shouting "do it!" does not constitute an immediate danger of life for the jumper who's fully aware of the danger he exposes himself to.
Words can be enough to constitute aid and abet of a crime, but since we don't have a crime in the first place, the point is moot.

Yelling "do it!" to somebody who's about to jump is IMO highly immoral, but that doesn't make it necessarily illegal.

I think your analogy is weak, but I'd like to restate what I said earlier. It isn't a crime. It SHOULD be a crime.

[SwissSkeptic]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
I think your analogy is weak, but I'd like to restate what I said earlier. It isn't a crime. It SHOULD be a crime.
Why do you think it's weak?

ETA: I realize it may have to do with differences between our jurisdictions. Around here the legal tenet is that in order to endanger somebodys life there has to be a direct connection between the action of the offender and the danger. This isn't the case if an action of the victim or a third party is needed for the risk to materialize.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by EagleEye
There's a big difference between the people that say "I'm gonna kill myself" in every day casual conversation (if you can call such converstion "casual" at all), and the actual "HEY EVERYONE, I'M STANDING ON THIS LEDGE 100 FEET FROM A HARD LANDING, AND I'M GOING TO JUMP! EVERYONE LOOK AT ME! SEE? I'M HURTING HERE AND WANT ATTENTION!"

Talking suicide then ultimately doing it "one day" is not the situation here, nor was it the situation in the various chats where I've seen people. There's passively suicidal and actively suicidal. In every single example you gave, you'll notice that they ALL killed themselves without much fanfare or "attention whoring". Sure, they talked about it before doing it, but they weren't actively threatening to kill themselves right then and there, which is what we're talking about here.

You say I'm "full of it"... but you clearly missed the entire point. The people you described acted exactly as suicidal people act. When they're about ready to kill themselves, they don't go and advertise it (anymore)... they simply DO it.

Both my brother's best friend and my wife's friend had histories of multiple "HEY EVERYONE, I'M STANDING ON THIS LEDGE 100 FEET FROM A HARD LANDING, AND I'M GOING TO JUMP! EVERYONE LOOK AT ME! SEE? I'M HURTING HERE AND WANT ATTENTION!" behavior.

They had both been hospitalized after each event many times. My brother's best friend would last a month at most and then do another what you call "attention whore" attempt.

These people are in pain. Serious pain. Even if what they are doing is to get attention, you have to be pretty sick inside to do it, and that is to be pitied. Something is broken inside of them.

You don't know if the guy on the ledge just lost his wife to cancer, or his job, or what. Whatever the case, he is in pain.

And if you think "real" suicides just do it somewhere nice and quiet, you might want to visit our Forum Spotlight and read the Golden Gate Jumpers topic. A lot of people kill themselves in public places.

Between 1930, when it was built, and 1950, when barriers were finally put up, 16 people jumped off the Empire State Building.

Some simple googling will show that a lot of people kill themselves very publicly.

If someone spots them and starts to try and talk them down, it is going to become a spectacle. That doesn't mean the guy isn't serious about suicide. You are being terribly judgemental and presumptious.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Is the person just standing there creating a traffic jam and probably wouldn't jump in the first place? I'd think about it.

Think I'm an a**hole? Well I'm just being honest, because that person could be destroying lifes too where someone might get fired for being late or not get to court in time, etc. It's not so black and white.


No I don't think you are an a-hole. But I think then that the same logic would apply to many situations where people block traffic. BTW it was at about 6:30 am and the gapers were not that numerous.

It is a grave mistake to think that people probably won't do it, tragillay there is a very large percentage of our population that does kill themselves every year. You won't read about it in the newpapers however.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by geni
Really? Can you show evidence that yelling "do it" is going to increase the chance of that person jumping?

Can you show that it won't?

I am grateful for your anti homeopathy fanatacis, but I kindly ask you to not become a social worker, it is a mistake to assume that most potential suicides won't make the act, there is a very small percentage of people who 'act out' suicide, but every week that I am on primary I meet at least one person who has acted to kill themselves.(Usually after they have barfed up the charcol and sorbitol.)

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by Tmy
I'd say "do it". The guy threatening to jump is a would be murderer. So what if hes killing himself. You have a problem with heckling a would be murderer?

So you are saying you would yell at the murderer to "Kill them". How quaint.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by EagleEye

In the middle of talking with her she says "WTF? Someone's at the door... hold on."

The people at the door were, of course, police... they woke her parents... told them that someone had called about their daughter threatening suicide online... the girl got help from a professional. Her dad got my number from the police and called me a week later to thank me for helping them realize their daughter was in need of help.



You made a wise choice, but how reflective of reality are internet chat rooms. There are plenty of suicidal people who aren't attention whores. I think that the phrase you want is 'borderline personality disorder' or 'histrionic personality disorder.'

I hope that you seek help before trying to kill yourself in the future.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by EagleEye
There's a big difference between the people that say "I'm gonna kill myself" in every day casual conversation (if you can call such converstion "casual" at all), and the actual "HEY EVERYONE, I'M STANDING ON THIS LEDGE 100 FEET FROM A HARD LANDING, AND I'M GOING TO JUMP! EVERYONE LOOK AT ME! SEE? I'M HURTING HERE AND WANT ATTENTION!"



Perhaps you are noy familiar with central Illinois, a bridge that spans a river valley that is ninety feet is a rare thing, there are not very many high places to jump off of, most tall buildings have precautions.

You are making the ASSUMPTION that the jumper chose the bridge because they were advertising thier suicide attempt. It is also likely that it was the only place where they had acsess to the ready means of harming themselves.

And again I will assume that the person was feeling pain and suffering because they have this major medical condition. They were seeking to end thier lives because they were miserable.

I am glad that you feel all people trying to kill themselves are attention whores, it must be comforting to have such a fundamental belief.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by SwissSkeptic
You still have to show how shouting "do it!" is endangering the would-be jumpers life.



The motives in suicide are varied, the ones that I have the hardest time dealing with are the perpetrators. These are the people who abuse hier partners and when they loose thier power then try to kill themselves to punish thier victim for getting safe. It is a frequently common tactic for abusers to threaten and make suicide attepts to punish thiet vistims.

Then there are the people who in thier altered state of mind would be thrilled to think that they might hurt thier family by commiting suicide, you have to be careful before stating to someone that they will hurt thier loved ones, some people will commit suicide to punish thier families, especialy adolescents.

[Dancing David]

Originally posted by geni
Or they could decide to stay alive to piss you off. People are strange.

I wish that were so, then I could just insult people all day long and not have to worry that they might kill themselves.

[shuize]

For anyone interested here is a link to a thread about a similar topic:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39228

I made a number of posts there and don't really wish to retype them all over again. But my position is still basically the same: For those who are in so much pain that they would consider taking their own lives, please seek help. Otherwise, please get out of the way and let everyone else get on with their own.

I doubt I would ever yell at someone on a bridge to "Do It!" But then again every hour of my life wasted in traffic waiting for a potential jumper to make up their mind would probably push me a little closer to it.

[Cain]

People who shout "jump" are not only pathetic and moronic, but unimaginative and sheepish. *I* would tell the person to "drop dead" (see, slightly less conventional). And what's the deal with "jumping" off a building anyway? You're already -- what -- seven or more stories up? Why bother exerting the extra effort now? Hey, interesting question: I wonder if most "jumpers" take the stairs or the elevator to the top. Someone should conduct a survey; I'm sure the Federal government would subsidize it.

Also, one should distinguish between different methods of suicide. The sort of person who jumps off a building is obnoxiously self-centered. "Oh, look at me, look at me, look at me." In addition to inconviencing people who want to get on with their otherwise productive and meaningful lives, "jumpers" make quite a mess, and humpty dumpty cannot put himself back together again.