Cardstacking history

[Gem]

As you can all see the forum is up in flames over current events, especially on the war in iraq (excuse me, EX war in Iraq) and the Isreal/Palestine conflict (which has been going for what, 55 years if you start in 1948, and much more if you count their war for indepence).

But I have noticed that people, include myself at times, often use this sort of tactic. Card-stacking: Downplaying the facts that argue against you and bringing up the facts that do support your position.

Example:
Palestenian are oppreseed, blah blah blah, Isreal evil, oppressors, blah blah blah.
Isreal rightous, blah blah blah, all palestenians terrorists, blah blah blah, arab culture is intolerant and racist, blah blah blah.

Aren't such simplistic views, coupled with card stacking, a sort of radicalism?
Let's take the Isreali/Arab conflict there is today. I have to agree to a certain point that the "left" forgets certain facts that argue against them. Like Arafat ain't very democratic, and I suspect not very good on human rights. Of course, the "right" forgets a few facts too. Like Sharon conducted a raid on a palestenian village that killed many women and children (in which one could argue that it was a small scale massacre). Or that the message tha isreal is sending to the Palestenian does the exact opposite. "You send terrorist in our land, we bulldoze some homes here and there, to show them that terror will bring them nothing good." It goes on like that, the message that they are trying to send gets utterly dissorted. I mean come on, if your home was demolished because of suspected terrorists lived in there, you'd be pissed off too. yes, there are some terrorists in civilian houses, but what else do you expect? That gerrila fighters start living in barracks with a huge sign that says "bomb here?"

Racism is alive and well fed on both sides. Tolerance is hard to find when both sides are waging a gerrila type war, where civilians are in between fire lanes.

I could argue on both sides of the issue if I wanted to.
ISreal, in my opinion, should control all the west bank and gaza strip. Not out of pity for the holocaust, or because they are a superior race/religion, but simply because I think that these people have a rich history and should be allowed to live near historic sites.
Then there's the "problem" that palestenians have been living there for centuries, at times dominated by various empires. During wars they were pushed out by the Isreal forces, and some are still refugees from the 1948 war. Should they go back into Isreal? Probably not, since they lost everything anyway. There is no easy solution. To allow them in Isreal is not permissible. To allow them in palestine in not either, because they will still stay in poverty for a long while.
Oh, and under no circumstances do I support terrorism. But please tell me, if you had the choice between fighting your enemy with a gun and die by a tank shell, straping a bomb to your body and at least inflict some death to your enemy, or block a tank with a panel that says "Isrealis go home!" And in their culture, like American culture, they won't let themselves be "beaten up" without some sort of fight. Didn't the American use snipers/guerrilas against the British (who were bloody upset about it).

And here's another point that has come to my attention. How can peace be achived when BOTH leaders of each country (sharon and arafat, I think the PM is for PR), go to peace on equal terms? Arafat and Sharon aren't very good friends. And even then, we could go on and on and cardstacking the facts, and downplaying the facts that don't fit our view.

Gem, who is sad because the world is not simple.

[Dancing David]

Gem, you are a gem.
I agree that there is a lot of card stacking.In general people use very lowhanded (Okay verticaly challenged) tactics to promote thier political viewpoints. In general (hahaha) there is oversimplificatition where people try to label themselves as good and others as bad.

In your example :
Support Israel or be antisemitic
Support the Plaestinians or be a fascist.

Other examples:
Support the war or you like Saddam
Oppose the war or support baby killing.

Agree with what I say or be a leftist idiot
Agree with what I say or be a rightist pig.


The world is complex, solutions require time and patience. And often aknowledgement of our own wrongs. My wish is that people would start to think thier own thoughts and reason thier own beliefs instead of just joining the cow chorus saying MOO.

Peace
dancing David

[Gem]

My wish is that people would start to think thier own thoughts and reason thier own beliefs instead of just joining the cow chorus saying MOO.

You mean the sheep chorus? "Baaah"

It's true there the lowhand tactic (good vs bad). But I was refering to this: People stack up evidence that supports them but rejects evidence that goes against them.

For example, David Horowitz:

There are two causes of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The first is Arab racism, which rejects any presence that is not Arab in its neighborhood; the second is Islamic intolerance which leads to the same rejection. Between 1922 and 1948, the Arabs were given 90% of the Palestine Mandate -- a territory in which no country existed and which had been promised by its British rulers to the Jews. The Jews were forbidden to live in the Arab portions of the mandate -- a concession by the British to Arab racism. At the same time, because the Jews were a tolerant and democratic people, , nearly a million Arabs were assimilated into the portion the Jews controlled where they were given more rights than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East. The Arab response to this compromise was a seven-nation military assault on this new state, which was called "Israel," and was a state largely composed of recent survivors of the worst genocide in human history. From the outset, then, the Middle East conflict was a war of xenophobic backwardness and ethnic barbarism waged against a persecuted people who intended no harm to their neighbors and sought only peace.

because the Jews were a tolerant and democratic people,
Forgets to mention that the Jews were revolting against the British, and at the same time fighting the arabs, and I doubnt that through the 1930s-1948 there was a democracy, considering that it was a British colony/mandate.

And also, racism and intolerance are pretty contagious, if you ask me.

I could say the same about people on the left, who use the tactics as their right wing counter parts.

JK, do you have anything to say about leftist card stacking? Besides that they're communists scums and "useful" idiots.

Gem

[Richard G]

Si Stebans always worked for me.

[iain]

Gem,

I agree.

All card-stackers are Nazi-loving, baby-killing scum. If there was any justice in the world, they would be locked up and the key thrown down a very deep chasm.

:D

[Jon_in_london]

Gem, you state that Isreal should take permanent control of the occupies territories but dont give any options to the plaestinians. Should they just accept it and meekly go away and rot in a refugee camp?

[Gem]

Gem, you state that Isreal should take permanent control of the occupies territories but dont give any options to the plaestinians. Should they just accept it and meekly go away and rot in a refugee camp?

No, I did not mean that. There can be many other options discussed with them. All I was saying is that both sides are card stacking the facts that go on their side, and ignore or downplays the facts that argue against them.
I could argue that the Jews have no place there, too. The simple solutions usually create more trouble than there already was, IMO.

Gem