U.S. captures mastermind of Achille Lauro hijacking

[Cleopatra]

Apart from the fact that those news filled my heart with great joy I wanted to share, here is another aspect of the issue we have been discussing in other threads and made our friend GEM wonder about the nature of the debates.

The man arrested by US Army in Iraq, Abu Abbas is a Palestinian Terrorist who spread terror all over the Mediterranean for years.

If you read the article carefully ( I can provide further info about the Achille Lauro hijacking, if you wish) you will realize why the Palestinian still don't have a country...

Palestinian militants under Abbas' command hijacked the Achille Lauro in October 1985. During the hijacking, Leon Klinghoffer -- a 69-year-old wheelchair-bound American Jew who was with his wife of 36 years on the cruise -- was killed and dumped into the sea.

"He created troubles. He was handicapped but he was inciting and provoking the other passengers. So, the decision was made to kill him," Abbas told the Boston Globe in 1998.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/15/sprj.irq.abbas.arrested/index.html

[iain]

From what I can see, this is a pretty funny story (not the hijacking, but the "capture" which the Americans are trumpeting as a major success, presumably because they haven't achieved anything better).

Everyone has known that Abu Abbas was in Iraq for years so this is nothing new.

The Israeli government was so convinced that he had renounced terrorism that they let him visit Gaza several times in the late 90's (according to a BBC report I heard this morning).

This is pretty much what many people (including myself) said could happen : if the coalition fails to find its real WMDs and terrorists, it will create major victories from very minor things.

[Cleopatra]

The capture of Abu Abass, is not a minor thing, my friend.

Abu Abass was for years the terror of the Mediterranean.

Israelis are aware of the terrorists in the Gaza Strip.

With some of them we have even shaked hands, in the name of Peace...:rolleyes:

[Denise]

I am happy to hear about his capture! I remember that hijacking well, but for a little bit of a different reason. The hijackers had asked the hostages to identify Jewish people by their names. Until that point in my life- I was a teen- I didn't know there was such a thing as a Jewish Surname. It was the first time that I became aware of predjudice against Jewish people.

[Denise]

It must be a family thing. My grandfather was most likely Jewish, but he never mentioned it. The family lost everything to immigrate to the USA from a German community. I don't know if there's any way to find out if it's true or not. As a side note, my cousin married a Jewish man. After their wedding I called her on the phone (she lives in California) and I asked what her new name was and she told me Goldstein. I said "Oh, your husband is Jewish?" She was surprised and she called out to her husband "Hey, David, are you Jewish?" She didn't know! Of course, it wasn't really an issue with them, but I found it humorous.

[Clancie]

Why the need for a new Abu Abbas thread? Oh well.

Here is a different point of view (NYTimes, today)....

...(In 1998) Abbas was allowed to return to the Gaza Strip by an Israeli Security Committee which concluded he had renounced violence.

GAZA — The Palestinian Authority demanded on Wednesday the United States free Palestinian guerrilla leader Abu Abbas, saying his detention by U.S. forces in Iraq violated a Middle East peace deal signed by Washington.

...Abbas was sentenced in absentia in Italy to life in prison for planning the hijacking. Although he was the target of a manhunt after the incident, Washington dropped a warrant for his arrest several years ago.

"The Palestinian-Israeli interim agreement signed on September 28, 1995 stated that members of the Palestine Liberation Organization must not be detained or tried for matters they committed before the Oslo peace accord of September 13, 1993,'' Erekat said (speaking for the Palestinian Authority).

``This interim agreement was signed on the U.S. side by President Clinton and his secretary of state, Warren Christopher,'' Erekat added.

...In 1998, the Israeli Supreme Court, citing the interim peace deals with the Palestinians, declared Abbas immune from prosecution in Israel over the ship's hijacking.

...Abbas was allowed to return to the Gaza Strip by an Israeli Security Committee which concluded he had renounced violence.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/inte...lestinians.html

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Clancy
Why the need for a new Abu Abbas thread? Oh well.

Here is a different point of view (NYTimes, today)....

...(In 1998) Abbas was allowed to return to the Gaza Strip by an Israeli Security Committee which concluded he had renounced violence.
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/inte...lestinians.html
Yeah, but those Israelis are notoriously soft on terrorism...:rolleyes:

[renata]

Originally posted by Clancy
Why the need for a new Abu Abbas thread? Oh well.




Because great minds think alike- right, Cleopatra? :)


Interesting topics are frequently posted more than once. Threads slip off the first page, threads are posted in different forums, that is not a major inconvenience. For the record I did post first :)

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17635

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Tricky

Yeah, but those Israelis are notoriously soft on terrorism...:rolleyes:

Aren't we?

We have even shaked hands with terrorists, remember?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/85000/images/_87713_arafat_and_rabin_and_clinton_handshake.jpg

[Cleopatra]

1. Yes Renata indeed. I didn't see yours, I was very excited with the news.

2. Sorry for bringing back to your memories Clinton's face.

[Mel]

Originally posted by Denise
It must be a family thing. My grandfather was most likely Jewish, but he never mentioned it. The family lost everything to immigrate to the USA from a German community. I don't know if there's any way to find out if it's true or not. As a side note, my cousin married a Jewish man. After their wedding I called her on the phone (she lives in California) and I asked what her new name was and she told me Goldstein. I said "Oh, your husband is Jewish?" She was surprised and she called out to her husband "Hey, David, are you Jewish?" She didn't know! Of course, it wasn't really an issue with them, but I found it humorous.

LOL!!! That's hilarious. And just imagine the conversation they had after she got off the phone.

[Denise]

Originally posted by Mel


LOL!!! That's hilarious. And just imagine the conversation they had after she got off the phone.

Yes, and totally true, swear to Ed. She is not a church going type so it didn't matter to her, and he wasn't really practicing his religion so I don't think it was or is now an issue with them.

[Gem]

*bows to the Queen of the Nile*

made our friend GEM wonder about the nature of the debates.

I am happy Her majesty mentions me by name... *bows again*:)

To be honest, I never even heard of the guy or of the hi-jacking. I did heard that he said he was sorry, but it's hard to know whether he is or not.

Anyone has any idea what's going to happen to him? I think the Italians have a score to settle with him.

Gem

[Cleopatra]

Well he might have said that he is sorry but PLO asked officialy the US Government to release him because according to the 1995 agreement he has immunity but according to the latest news USA government denies that was immuned in 1995.

If he was immuned they have to let him go. I am always pro respecting the agreements.But I am afraid they won't.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030416/ts_nm/iraq_abbas_immunity_dc&cid=564&ncid=1473

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Well he might have said that he is sorry but PLO asked officialy the US Government to release him because according to the 1995 agreement he has immunity but according to the latest news USA government denies that was immuned in 1995.

If he was immuned they have to let him go. I am always pro respecting the agreements.But I am afraid they won't.

Even if the U.S. (and Israel) refuses to sign on, Italy doesn't have to abide by the agreement. So, I'd be happy to see him rot in an Italian jail (heck, any jail), as long has he doesn't see the light of day again.

A question I have... Italy tried him in absentia and found him guilty.... Just how binding is that trial? Do people convicted in absentia have an automatic right to a retrial once they are brought back into the country? Or do the terms of his conviction stand?

Here's a version of the story that has more information:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030416/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_abbas_reax_030416151408

(edited to add link)

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Segnosaur

Even if the U.S. (and Israel) refuses to sign on, Italy doesn't have to abide by the agreement.

Well.... although I am not an expert in International Law this is the problem that we have pointed out with USA attitude...
Legally speaking, Italy has to abide with the agreement.

Or do the terms of his conviction stand?

Of course they still stand. Conviction in absentia is an absolutely legitimate procedure.

[OBgac]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Well he might have said that he is sorry but PLO asked officialy the US Government to release him because according to the 1995 agreement he has immunity but according to the latest news USA government denies that was immuned in 1995.

If he was immuned they have to let him go. I am always pro respecting the agreements.But I am afraid they won't.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030416/ts_nm/iraq_abbas_immunity_dc&cid=564&ncid=1473


I'm just very glad that the US hasn't spend USD 80 000 000 000 for nothing. I feel much safer now. Thanks GWB! :rolleyes:

[Cleopatra]

OBgac my friend, from what I see both of us are not paying taxes in USA :)

So. I am glad that the relatives of Leon Klinghoffer can leave the rest of their lives in peace, knowing that the murderer will pay for what he has done.

You know, crime has "multi-dimensional" effects. First is the victim who pays with his/her life but the most tragic figures are the relatives, especially when the murderer has escaped.

It's a feeling I wish you will never have to experience.

[OBgac]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
OBgac my friend, from what I see both of us are not paying taxes in USA :)

So. I am glad that the relatives of Leon Klinghoffer can leave the rest of their lives in peace, knowing that the murderer will pay for what he has done.

You know, crime has "multi-dimensional" effects. First is the victim who pays with his/her life but the most tragic figures are the relatives, especially when the murderer has escaped.

It's a feeling I wish you will never have to experience.


Cleopatra

I mean no disrespect to the relatives of his victim, it seems to me that either Mossad or the CIA could have "taken him out" (with no objections from me) for a tiny fraction of the cost any time over the last few years.

I just object the trumpeting of the US about this capture. It smacks of desparation that this is the best they can do after a month of being in the country.

And you are right, I dont pay US taxes ;)

OBgac

[Cleopatra]

Hmmmmm the say the same for Saddam. I don't know. I think that we have overestimated those agencies.

I also want to comment the fact that the Palestinian Authority seems to insist on a stupid policy.

Why the hell had they come out to defend Abbas?

[Segnosaur]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

Well.... although I am not an expert in International Law this is the problem that we have pointed out with USA attitude...
Legally speaking, Italy has to abide with the agreement.

But why? If italy wasn't someone who signed the agreement, then why would they have to abide by it when the case affects a crime that occurs within its jurisdiction? (I am not sure where exactly the cruise ship was when hijacked, but it was Italian liner.)
Originally posted by Cleopatra

Of course they still stand. Conviction in absentia is an absolutely legitimate procedure.
But wouldn't that mean the person didn't have the ability to mount a proper legal defense? (Of course, I know there may be differences based on the reason the person wasn't in attendance; fleeing after bail is granted may be looked on differently than a case where the person is never arrested in the first place.)

[Cleopatra]

Segnosaur, since I already mentioned that I do not practice International Law, I had to ask a couple of colleagues, that's why it took me sometime to answer to this.

I didn't get a definite reply :)

As I told you the status of International bilateral agreements as the ones signed by Israelis and Palestinians is rather obscure and therefore subjected to the current political will...

As for the procedure. When Abbas was arrested and the Italian authorities composed the files they found that they didn't have a case against him so they let him go. After a couple of years things changed and he was processed to appear to court. Of course he never did and he was trialed in absentia.

Now, not even USA recognizes that must abide by the agreement and let him go although they have signed it... they say now that they didn't have an institutional role, of course I dissagree on that but this is a long story....