Religion trumps Science?!?!?

[Antiquehunter]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050810/hl_nm/religion_life_dc;_ylt=ApM7ZoL2519CDqVJQLUd9.sQ.3QA ;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


(Excerpt)

"Reuters Health - Many US doctors believe that the religious convictions of their patients should outweight their professional advice when it comes to making certain medical decisions...Overall, 23 percent of physicians said that religion had a negative effect on healthcare, 30 percent said it had a neglible effect, and 47 percent said religion had a positive effect"

Hmm... questions that spring to mind...

- How does one make sure that your quack is in the 23 percent category or at least in the 30 percent category (the placebo effect could arguably be a neglible effect I s'pose)

- If 47 percent say that religion has a positive effect, shouldn't they be in a priesthood of some kind rather than being medical practitioners?!?!?

Scary stuff...

-Oke

[Zep]

Where did those figures come from again?

[Antiquehunter]

(excerpt)

"These findings and others come from a survey of 794 physicians nationwide who answered various questions about religion and its effect on healthcare in the United States in an August poll."

...

""Something's happening in the power relationship between physicians and patients," according to Dr. Arthur J. Kover, a management fellow at Yale University's School of Management and a consultant with HCD Research, the New Jersey-based market research company that conducted the poll."

-Oke

[Soapy Sam]

" Something's happening in the power relationship between physicians and patients," according to Dr. Arthur J. Kover, a management fellow at Yale University's School of Management and a consultant with HCD Research, the New Jersey-based market research company that conducted the poll."


Absolutely right. We no longer think doctors are gods. This may be due to the internet; to the popular image of the doctor in the media , (which has gone from "Trustworthy elderly gentleman with black bag", through "Well coiffed middle aged professional" to "Self important jerk on the golf course ") , or just to the expense of modern medicine and the remoteness of it's practitioners.
Meanwhile, along comes a "crystal therapist" who listens to your nonsense, holds your hand, tells you it's gonna be fine and reintegrates your chakra by manipulation of your orgone fibrillator. (TM)

Now who would YOU go to with your chronic sinusitis?

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam

Now who would YOU go to with your chronic sinusitis?

Well, Soapy, you know the answer for you and me, and many others on this board. It is neither. Jumping into bed with a crystal therapist is the same as jumping into be with the doc as far as the "from authority" fallacies go. As far as the probability of doc being right versus mr. crystal, the docs, in general, are more reliable. Personally, I keep cross-checking each doc's statements when I have the opportunity. If I have a lacerated artery, however, I am in the emergency room and at their hands. I am not cross-checking as they intervene. How many of these woos woiuld go to the acupuncturist for this? Almost zero. The others follow the darwinian model of natural selection.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

This is based on the (false) assumption that religion offers "spiritual consolation", while science cant. I believe this is a mistake. One can be extremely spiritual and at the same time have a scientific perspective regarding reality, without involving any sort of religious believe.

[LucyR]

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
One can be extremely spiritual and at the same time have a scientific perspective regarding reality, without involving any sort of religious believe.

But what on Earth does "spiritual" mean? I've never understood the term.

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Good point. It is a very difficult word (out of the religious specific context). Please dont take this as other than my particular view:

The "spiritual" thing about the world is its mystery, the thing that you feel when you contemplate something that you cant fully grasp nor understand, to be the pasive (or sometimes active) spectator of the whole set of experiences available to a sentient being.

This feeling of astonishment, of being able to enjoy the existence, and having a profound respect for everything, is what I would call "spiritual".

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

(why is that we cant delete our own posts? I dont understand)

sorry for the inconvenience, double post.

[Jyera]

I don't think those (47%) doctors need to be priest.
- They could be your more warm and compassionate doctors, where they respect what makes you feel good. Doctors aren't supposed to be mechanical diagnostic robots.


What is "certain medical decision" , as quoted in the OP?

Different situation needs different decisions.
Sometimes it is better to leave the decision to the patient.
If you are beyond help and are about to die, I suppose it is better to die in peace, happily and full of "spiritual bliss" (what ever that means to the individual).

I'm quite sure that for "certain medical decision", almost 100% of the doctor will agree that religion conviction has negligible effect.


The article also include this...
"When it comes to making healthcare decisions for children, however, nearly 84 percent of doctors agreed that a physician's medical decision should not be overridden by the religious beliefs of a child's guardian."

This is a strong indication a good sense of discretion in most of our doctors.

For a fatal illness that can only be cured by a god, almost 100% of the cases result in death.

Miracle is rare, so how effective are the gods.

[El_Spectre]

This is OK... if someone's beliefs forbid them from whatever medicine, that's their choice. I'm not saying the doctor shouldn't advise against it, but if someone wants to skip their pills and croaks, well... 1 less fool in the world.

(Side note: I used - in less anti-religious days- to date a Jehovah's Witness who wouldn't accept a transfusion, but took prescription hormone pills - derived from horse serum I think- every day. I never told her HOW they make the pills, for fear she's stop taking 'em and die.

Oh, if she was in an accident, yes I'd tell 'em to give her blood... better mad and alive than righteously dead!)

[c4ts]

Okay, medical advice comes from professionals, people who have had years of training, who are required by law to be well informed about what processes go on inside the human body, as opposed to some preist telling you "You can't have a colostomy because the evil doctors will suck the soul out your butt with a giant vacuum cleaner, so it's better to leave it alone and let God take care of you!"

Okay, so nobody believes exactly that, but religion is a notoriously bad source for informed decisions.

[Antiquehunter]

Originally posted by c4ts
Okay, medical advice comes from professionals, people who have had years of training, who are required by law to be well informed about what processes go on inside the human body, as opposed to some preist telling you "You can't have a colostomy because the evil doctors will suck the soul out your butt with a giant vacuum cleaner, so it's better to leave it alone and let God take care of you!"

Okay, so nobody believes exactly that, but religion is a notoriously bad source for informed decisions.

The reason I initially posted the article for discussion was simply to point out that an alarming number of doctors appear to ascribe some powers to woo. It had never occurred to me to ask my GP what his thoughts were on religion affecting a patient - but I definitely will now. I go to my doctor to have a symptom relieved and/or to get made well again. If I felt that a religious belief was the best way to cure my sniffles or fix my broken leg, I'd see a priest.

What I did find interesting was that doctors reported a significantly higher reluctance to 'play god' with children. Does this indicate some latent skepticism about the efficacy of religion?

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by Antiquehunter The reason I initially posted the article for discussion was simply to point out that an alarming number of doctors appear to ascribe some powers to woo. How can one deny that woo has power? Not that it has the power that adherents claim, but clearly Christianity has had wide ranging effects on medicine.

What I did find interesting was that doctors reported a significantly higher reluctance to 'play god' with children. Does this indicate some latent skepticism about the efficacy of religion? I don't see any reason to make this deduction. With adults, the wishes of the patients should almost always take precedence, regardless of their reasons. Children, on the other hand, are not competent to make some decisions.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Aside from folks who don't believe in proper medical treatment, religiosity might be weakly correlated with healthier behavior.

[Antiquehunter]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
How can one deny that woo has power? Not that it has the power that adherents claim, but clearly Christianity has had wide ranging effects on medicine.

Positive effects? How so? I can think of no study that proves the positive power of prayer. I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?

I don't see any reason to make this deduction. With adults, the wishes of the patients should almost always take precedence, regardless of their reasons. Children, on the other hand, are not competent to make some decisions.

The example I was contemplating was - an adult needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Adult states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather leave my fate in the hands of god'. 57% of doctors say that this decision is sound.

A child needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Parent states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather my child's fate is in the hands of god'. 84% of doctors say that in this case the child should have the transfusion.

Why the dichotomy? Either its a sound decision to put one's faith in god or its not. This is a fairly extreme example I realize. My point is that it looks like 27% of doctors are willing to shrug and say OK - good luck with your god thing when its an adult, but scurry back to the scientific method when a child's life hangs in danger. (And also that 16% of doctors appear to be bozos.)

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by Antiquehunter
Positive effects? How so? I can think of no study that proves the positive power of prayer. I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?

AH,

Art didn't specify positive effects. He simply stated effects, which it clearly has had. Look at the xian right's campaign against abortion and stem cell research. At catholicism's campaign against birth control. If you don't know the sad history of birth control in the U.S., go back a few decades in the popular press to see how controversial birth control pills were, and how long it took for morning after pills to be accepted in the U.S.

For more effects of woo, look at the international anti-vax campaigns, or the outlandish claims about HIV recently made by certain African leaders.

May the woo be with you.

[edited to add:

Oy! How could I forget the simplest example of all. Just sneeze in public. On the street, in the office, at the library, coffee shop or your favorite pub.

What does everybody say?

Uh-huh.

Where does that tradition come from?

Uh-huh.

'Nuff said.]

[jambo372]

Originally posted by BillHoyt
AH,

Art didn't specify positive effects. He simply stated effects, which it clearly has had. Look at the xian right's campaign against abortion and stem cell research. At catholicism's campaign against birth control. If you don't know the sad history of birth control in the U.S., go back a few decades in the popular press to see how controversial birth control pills were, and how long it took for morning after pills to be accepted in the U.S.

For more effects of woo, look at the international anti-vax campaigns, or the outlandish claims about HIV recently made by certain African leaders.

May the woo be with you.

[edited to add:

Oy! How could I forget the simplest example of all. Just sneeze in public. On the street, in the office, at the library, coffee shop or your favorite pub.

What does everybody say?

Uh-huh.

Where does that tradition come from?

Uh-huh.

'Nuff said.]

Why does it matter whether or not a doctor is religious ?

About the HIV thing ...
a friend of mine has this tape about Freemasons.
It mentions that studies were performed on HIV which showed that it was highly unlikely that it mutated from a similar virus in monkeys. It says that in the 1970s the increase in third world populations and the reduction of the European and North American white populations was threatening Masonic Supremacy and HIV was genetically engineered in an attempt to control these third world populations.

It said other stuff about ID cards to check up on people and hidden messages in the media to manipulate people. It said that certain songs by artists such as Madonna and the Eagles when played backwords have a hidden message regarding Satan.

It also mentioned conflict of the freemasons and a one eyed Jewish antichrist against muslims. It also mentioned hidden masonic symbolism such as the all seeing eye on US currency.

[drkitten]

Originally posted by jambo372

About the HIV thing ...
a friend of mine has this tape about Freemasons....


I have a tape about how to speak French.

The difference between my tape and your friend's is that mine is non-fiction.

If you want fiction tapes, I have one about hobbits, too. It's probably much better written than your friend's.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by new drkitten
I have a tape about how to speak French.

The difference between my tape and your friend's is that mine is non-fiction.

If you want fiction tapes, I have one about hobbits, too. It's probably much better written than your friend's.

Eh, the one all about the elves is better :)

Of course, it's full of creationism stuff, and telepathy, and curses and prophecy too...

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by jambo372
It mentions that studies were performed on HIV which showed that it was highly unlikely that it mutated from a similar virus in monkeys.

Where are these studies published?

It said other stuff about ID cards to check up on people and hidden messages in the media to manipulate people. It said that certain songs by artists such as Madonna and the Eagles when played backwords have a hidden message regarding Satan.

Subliminal messages don't work. Falsify my tenative null hypothesis.

It also mentioned conflict of the freemasons and a one eyed Jewish antichrist against muslims. It also mentioned hidden masonic symbolism such as the all seeing eye on US currency.

Sigh. (http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/eye.html)

[jambo372]

Originally posted by BronzeDog
Where are these studies published?



Subliminal messages don't work. Falsify my tenative null hypothesis.



Sigh. (http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/eye.html)

I never says the tape was correct. I'm just mentioning some of it's theories.

Are you a mason ?

[Bronze Dog]

Originally posted by jambo372
I never says the tape was correct. I'm just mentioning some of it's theories.

Are you a mason ?
Oh. Sorry.

Nope.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by Antiquehunter
I can think of no study that proves the positive power of prayer. I've read about studies supporting this view, but I can't think of any off hand. It seems quite reasonable to think that the placebo effect would be quite strong.

The example I was contemplating was - an adult needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Adult states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather leave my fate in the hands of god'. 57% of doctors say that this decision is sound. I'm not sure if they're saying that it's sound. Just that they have the right to make that decision if they want to. Whereas a child does not.

[Antiquehunter]

Originally posted by BillHoyt
AH,

Art didn't specify positive effects. He simply stated effects, which it clearly has had. Look at the xian right's campaign against abortion and stem cell research. At catholicism's campaign against birth control. If you don't know the sad history of birth control in the U.S., go back a few decades in the popular press to see how controversial birth control pills were, and how long it took for morning after pills to be accepted in the U.S.
'Nuff said.]

True - Art didn't specify 'positive' - which is why I also ended my statement "I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?" - acknowledging that there had been 'effects'. I was hoping to move the discussion along to trying to find some positive effects religion has had on medicine.

Art has pointed out that he may have seen reports that suggest some success with positive response to prayer. I think I recall an article in Skeptic mag a few years ago. Off to Google, unless someone can dig it up... I agree with Art that the placebo effect may make it LOOK like prayer is being effective - but that isn't really attributable directly to religious belief, is it?

-Oke

-Oke

[fishbob]

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
[B](why is that we cant delete our own posts? I dont understand)

and

[b]The "spiritual" thing about the world is its mystery, the thing that you feel when you contemplate something that you cant fully grasp nor understand, to be the pasive (or sometimes active) spectator of the whole set of experiences available to a sentient being.[\b]

Must be spiritual.

[Art Vandelay]

Originally posted by Antiquehunter
True - Art didn't specify 'positive' - which is why I also ended my statement "I agree that historically christianity has influenced the evolution of medicine as we know it today - but consistently in a positive fashion?" - acknowledging that there had been 'effects'. I was hoping to move the discussion along to trying to find some positive effects religion has had on medicine.There's quite a bit of difference between "consistently in a positive fashion" and "some positive effects". A lot of hospitals are run by religious groups, for one.

I agree with Art that the placebo effect may make it LOOK like prayer is being effective - but that isn't really attributable directly to religious belief, is it?I don't see the distinction. The placebo effect doesn't mean that it merely looks like it's helping; it is helping. If the placebo effect saves someone's life, it seems like quite a quibble to say that's not real. What, does he just appear to still be alive?

[Antiquehunter]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
There's quite a bit of difference between "consistently in a positive fashion" and "some positive effects". A lot of hospitals are run by religious groups, for one.

-Point.

I don't see the distinction. The placebo effect doesn't mean that it merely looks like it's helping; it is helping. If the placebo effect saves someone's life, it seems like quite a quibble to say that's not real. What, does he just appear to still be alive?

The placebo effect itself is what is sustaining someone in this case - not the power of prayer. Sure - prayer was the catalyst for the placebo effect - but this is not power of prayer. This is power of the placebo effect.

Still searching for that Skeptic mag article.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Antiquehunter
The example I was contemplating was - an adult needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Adult states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather leave my fate in the hands of god'. 57% of doctors say that this decision is sound.

According to a discussion I had with my surgeon's assistant while we were getting the paperwork for my surgery squared away, it is apparently a point of Canadian law that a competent adult has the right to refuse treatment, even if the treatment is necessary to save his/her own life.

One of the documents I had to sign covered instructions of what the surgeon was allowed to do (over and above the surgical procedure) to save my life if things went badly. Permission to consider a transfusion was one of the first few questions. (I answered "yes", in case anybody cares.)

I can't remember hearing about any instance (at least in the news) where a Canadian hospital challenged such an instruction.

A child needs a blood transfusion or they'll die. Parent states 'no - its contrary to my interpretation of leviticus so I'd rather my child's fate is in the hands of god'. 84% of doctors say that in this case the child should have the transfusion.

It gets a lot more complicated, ethically, when a designated guardian refuses necessary life-saving treatment on behalf of a minor.

I remember several instances where the hospitals went to court to challenge the decision. Of the ones I remember most clearly, one was a JW family with a transfusion at issue, the other two were children who wanted to decline chemo and try out someone's woo-"cure". I remember these cases in particular, because the courts ruled against the parents.