Religion and Hospitals

[jj]

Well, it's been a while, but I have had a similar issue to Kourama's with hospital admissions. Both my wife and I "just don't", in terms of religion. I really don't know how else to put it.

My wife is racially chinese (born in Mississippi, raised in Colorado, but genetically chinese), and when she said "none" after a raised eyebrow the person put "none" in the slot on the hospital admission form (this was also during labor, this may have sped things up a wee bit).

When I went in for an emergency admission, THE PERSON AT THE FRONT DESK WOULD NOT ADMIT ME DESPITE MY 104 DEGREE FEVER UNTIL I GAVE HER A RELIGION TO PUT DOWN. She would not put down "atheist". I told her I was going to stroke out in front of her and she told me "it was policy". I raised holy hell aobut this the next day after a course of mega-antibiotics, and got a BIT of satisfaction, but not much.

On top of that, this ^%$^% who finally put down (I kid you not) "the church of Popperian Science" sic'ed EVERY (*&(**( chaplain in the hospital on me. The (*&*(& protestant chaplain would not, just NOT buzz off, tried to sit there next to a sick, irascible person (you think I'm grumpy when I'm healthy???) and THREATEN THEM WIth HELL. I buzzed the nurse, asked her to get him to leave, she went to get a sup, when the catholic chaplain walked in for his shot. I told HIM I didn't blieve anything. He, at least, understood what "popperian science" meant, and bless him, HE DRAGGED THE FREAKIN' protestant dweeb out the door with him, complaining all the way. A Jewish person showed up later, asked "did you mean you are an atheist", I said "yes", he asked "why did you say that", I told him, and he called the complaint department for me. That's when I at least got somebody to tell the person guarding the front door that "none" was permissable. I wonder, though, since she was desparately (and expressly) trying to save my immortoal sole (yes, I know it's soul, but the only one I have is under my foot) by getting a "real answer, he didn't mean that, he was sick" out of me.

This ranks right up there with the admissions clerk who insisted that we show a marriage license since the two of us kept our own last names. Her excuse? "But she's chinese and you're not".

I replied with "And I'm Chevy Chase and you're not". She didnt' get that either, and refused to add me as "next of kin". I asked (knowing to do this at this point) for a social worker NOW, and suddenly (without social worker) I became next of kin.

I believe the proper response is ^%$(*)@(_#&%(*&(@#&%

[kittynh]

I try to do "agnostic" they won't go for that!

My daughter once put down "Strict Swedenborgian" for me because she knows how hard it is to find a Swedenborgian minister.

But I have to say after the front desk check in mess I've never had anyone in the ministry show up to talk to me! To be honest I got really bored once, and would have welcomed anyone! Last time I was in thank goodness "whose line is it anyway" was on every night. The nurses would come hang out in my room with me and watch it.

[Patrickt]

When I went into the military they would not accept atheist either but I found non-sectarian made them happy.

[jimlintott]

Last September my daughter fractured her spine. (She's going to be fine, thankyou.) I was with her in her room and a lady came in to fill out some forms. At one point the question was: Religion?

I said "none".
My daughter said "none".
The woman said "me too" and happily wrote it down.

I don't know how I would react to someone who wouldn't accept this answer as it is the only actual truthful answer I have to that question. I suspect that a great deal of punctuation might creep into my vocabulary at that moment. (#@**%!!)

[justsaygnosis]

I've never tried 'satanist'.


{Note to self
(Next time in use satanist and see what happens.)}


I'll post when I do.
Hopefully it won't be soon.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by jj

When I went in for an emergency admission, THE PERSON AT THE FRONT DESK WOULD NOT ADMIT ME DESPITE MY 104 DEGREE FEVER UNTIL I GAVE HER A RELIGION TO PUT DOWN. She would not put down "atheist". I told her I was going to stroke out in front of her and she told me "it was policy". I raised holy hell aobut this the next day after a course of mega-antibiotics, and got a BIT of satisfaction, but not much.


Hey JJ, don't give the chick at the front desk a hard time for doing her job. What probably happened is that someone got admitted without recording a religion and died without the proper last rites or rituals. Then the family sued the hospital for lots of money.

So hostpital administration tells the front desk people "Make sure that everyone who is admitted fills in a religion or you're fired". If you want to blame anyone, blame the legal profession, not the hospital (or religion).

Anyways, thats not my point. My point is that you expressed extreme anger and put your life at risk for your religious beliefs. How is that any different than the behavior of a fundamentalist Christian, Muslim or Jew? If you just didn't care you could say you were a Unitarian (my stock response if I have to specify) or whatever your family history would deem appropriate (in my case, Judaism).

So atheism is reduced to yet another intolerant belief system; complete with the requisite hatred of all other competing belief systems (sound familiar?). Why I find particularly irritating is that it's practioners adamantly deny it's religious nature, despite acting in a manner indistinguishable from religious fundies.

P.S. This thread might be more appropriate on the religion and philosophy forum.

[jj]

Originally posted by EvilYeti


Anyways, thats not my point. My point is that you expressed extreme anger and put your life at risk for your religious beliefs. How is that any different than the behavior of a fundamentalist Christian, Muslim or Jew? If you just didn't care you could say you were a Unitarian (my stock response if I have to specify) or whatever your family history would deem appropriate (in my case, Judaism).



Hey, doofus, what was I supposed to tell her? Are you telling me I'm supposed to lie to satisfy her? I'm supposed to allow this moron to stand in my room and threaten my "immortal soul"? You think I really felt like thinking up the name of some religion when I' about to fall over on her desk? Get real. It doesn't matter if it's a real religion or not, anything but answering the question directly is more work, and that's not what you ask of someone who's about to collapse on your floor.

What's your problem?

All I wanted was to get into the hospital, and get healed. I shouldn't EVER have to answer such a silly question. She may have to ask, but she is obliged to write down what I tell here, including "none", and get on with it.

So, stuff your preconceptions up your nose, or fly the coop or something.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by jj

Hey, doofus, what was I supposed to tell her? Are you telling me I'm supposed to lie to satisfy her? I'm supposed to allow this moron to stand in my room and threaten my "immortal soul"?

Hey, you cantankerous old coot, watch the ad-hominems!

Yes, you are supposed to lie, because your physical and mental health are more important. If you had lied everything would have been fine, you would have gotten the forms filled in faster and the moron wouldnt have bothered you. As it was you almost became the first martyr for atheism.


What's your problem?


My problem is two-fold.

1. I don't like to see hard-working underpaid people in difficult positions, like nurses, given a hard time just because they have to follow stupid rules to keep their job.

2. Self-described atheists acting in manner indistinguishable from religious fanatics.


All I wanted was to get into the hospital, and get healed. I shouldn't EVER have to answer such a silly question. She may have to ask, but she is obliged to write down what I tell here, including "none", and get on with it.

Apparently "none" was not an acceptable answer; I guarantee due to prior litigation. The question may be silly to you, but I it would not be to an orthodox Jew and their family (which have very specific death and burial rituals).
Why is it so hard for you to understand that the nurse was protecting her job and the hospital was protecting themselves from being bankrupted by malpractice lawsuits? Are your needs really that great so as to supercede those of an entire medical organization?


So, stuff your preconceptions up your nose, or fly the coop or something.

Feh, a personal attack, the last refuge of the forensically challenged. :p

[jj]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
Hey, you cantankerous old coot, watch the ad-hominems!

Yes, you are supposed to lie, because your physical and mental health are more important. If you had lied everything would have been fine, you would have gotten the forms filled in faster and the moron wouldnt have bothered you. As it was you almost became the first martyr for atheism.


Whatever, you unreasonable bungheaded teenager!
(I AM a cantakerous old coot, btw, that's hardly an insult, is it?)

Even when I'm too (&(*& sick to have enough energy to make something up, eh?

Get real...


My problem is two-fold.

1. I don't like to see hard-working underpaid people in difficult positions, like nurses, given a hard time just because they have to follow stupid rules to keep their job.

Not ONE of the nurses was a problem. This was an admissions clerk, and let me be very clear, she was determined to extract a religion for me. She didn't just tell me it was policy, she told me it was for my own sake. Yeah, right. And she kept saying that until I puked in a wastebasket and said "ok, ok, Scientific Popperism", which she wrote down, asking me how to spell it. Then she asked "is that protestant", to which I said (retch) yes, we complain a lot.(puke shake) Btw, she came up with the "Church of Popperian Science" bit, I guess she thought Popper was a buddy of Mary Baker Eddy or something.

2. Self-described atheists acting in manner indistinguishable from religious fanatics.

Listen dweebasaurus (that's a promotion to a higher level of ad-hominem), I wasn't trying to be atheist, I was trying to get into the hospital. There is nothing in this world that should REQUIRE ME TO THINK SOMETHING UP when I'm about to pass out in order to get into the hospital. NOTHING. Not for me, not for an Observant Conservative Lubovitch Jewish person to a West Bank islamic hospital, NOT NOBODY NOWHERE. Just take the answer and get the person healed. Suppose they aren't healthy enough to make something up. Did that occur to you? Suppose I fall on the floor and arrest while I'm trying to make something up? Are you really insisting I do that? YES YOU ARE, you're just as bad as she was.

Apparently "none" was not an acceptable answer; I guarantee due to prior litigation. The question may be silly to you, but I it would not be to an orthodox Jew and their family (which have very specific death and burial rituals).

DOH, foodus, if I was an observant Orthodox Jew I'll bet she would have never asked the question, my yarmulke by itself would have answered that, or the big black hat and black coat, yes? And I'd not have to MAKE SOMETHING UP ON THE SPOT, would I? No. All I could do is moan the truth, and *poof* I'd be in.

But Nooooo, I can't do that. I have to INVENT SOMETHING. I have to THINK CLEARLY when I'm passing out, or ELSE. Would you PLEASE mind explaining why I have to pass a higher hurdle here than a deist? PLEASE? (No, you won't, you'll ignore the relevant question like you did the first time, I expect.)

That's stupid, risky and downright illegal itself. It has nothing to do with lawyers, you understand THIS BENIGHTED PERSON WAS INSISTING BECAUSE SHE WANTED TO "SAVE MY SOUL", just like her minister (the two were acquainted, and HE was unethically, dishonestly, and willfully trying to prey on a sick person. He was trying to torture someone into joining his religion. I'm suppose to deal with this clearly and creatively when I'm passing out?

YEAH RIGHT, sure I am, I have to have a higher hurdle to pass than you, because I'm not a deist. That's EXACTLY what you're telling me. I am REQUIRED to make something up, no matter I'm in no shape to do anything.

Are we communicating clearly now? It was eclesiastical extortion.

And the guy who showed up and wouldn't leave was simply an extortionist buddy of hers.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that the nurse was protecting her job and the hospital was protecting themselves from being bankrupted by malpractice lawsuits? Are your needs really that great so as to supercede those of an entire medical organization?


[B]

1) It wasn't a nurse.
2) I was in no shape to invent something.
3) It is dishonest of you to ask me to HIDE my personal beliefs when I'm ready to pass out.

The only nurse involved went to get her supe to toss the guy out. That's neither unethical or unsupportive. She quite clearly understood that I wanted the guy OUT OUT OUT, and took action, only to have the Catholic chaplain do it for her. (No, I don't blame him.)

[shanek]

Originally posted by jj
When I went in for an emergency admission, THE PERSON AT THE FRONT DESK WOULD NOT ADMIT ME DESPITE MY 104 DEGREE FEVER UNTIL I GAVE HER A RELIGION TO PUT DOWN. She would not put down "atheist". I told her I was going to stroke out in front of her and she told me "it was policy".

Shoulda told her "Jedi." :D

[jj]

Originally posted by shanek


Shoulda told her "Jedi." :D

At the time nobody knew what one was. This was a while ago. I'm happy to say I haven't been in an emergency admission in some time, and I do like it like that, too :)

But, yeah, that would be tempting nowadays. Or, err, what was that one on Southpark?

But neither would come quickly to my mind when about to drop, I fear. Well, probably. I did come up with "Scientific Popperism" in that state, didn't I?

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Osama Bin Johnston

Whatever, you unreasonable bungheaded teenager!

Listen dweebasaurus...

DOH, foodus,


Help, help, see the violence apparent in atheism!!!! Help I'm being repressed!!!

[a_unique_person]

I think you guys should all be moving to Australia.

Better beer, and when they ask us what religion for Hospital, you just say none. I have never heard of anyone making a fuss about this before in my life.

[Supercharts]

Professional weeper. That's the ticket!!!
:D :D :D

[Smalso]

Evil Yeti:Hey JJ, don't give the chick at the front desk a hard time for doing her job. What probably happened is that someone got admitted without recording a religion and died without the proper last rites or rituals. Then the family sued the hospital for lots of money.

Do you have a link or reference to any documentation for your claim that this happened in this case, or is it just speculation?

Help I'm being repressed!!!

You ain't seen nothing yet. I have a very special type of "repression" reserved for Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on my door. I don't discriminate, either. The Baptists from the church up the road got the same when they came calling with Bibles and tracts in hand.

[richardm]

Originally posted by jj
Well, it's been a while, but I have had a similar issue to The (*&*(& protestant chaplain would not, just NOT buzz off, tried to sit there next to a sick, irascible person (you think I'm grumpy when I'm healthy???) and THREATEN THEM WIth HELL.


By rights, he should do that for everybody who comes into the hospital who isn't protestant. He must be very busy!

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Smalso
Evil Yeti:

Do you have a link or reference to any documentation for your claim that this happened in this case, or is it just speculation?
Are you just being difficult? He didn't claim it happened in this case. He just suggested that it was the most likely explanation for the admitting clerk's stubbornness. Obviously it's speculation. We don't even know when, to whom or in what hospital this particular incident took place. Even if Yeti's proposed explanation is essentially correct, the dispute would probably have been settled without litigation and without any public record.

The "religious affiliation" slot on hospital admission forms is generally an option offered merely as a convenience for patients and their families. As it happens, though, Yeti's speculation about concern over legal liability is eminently sensible. I had a similar reflection as soon as I read jj's post, and over the course of my career in law I've gotten pretty good at detecting the hidden hand of litigation (or the threat thereof) as an influence on institutional behavior.

Of greater litigious potential than someone dying in hospital without the proper religious observances, however, is the possibility of performing medical procedures repugnant to a patient's religious beliefs. There have been many lawsuits arising from such incidents.

[Smalso]

ceo_esq:Are you just being difficult?

Yes. Sorry.

When I was admitted to the hospital from the ER, I was asked my religious preference. I said atheist. She wrote down "no preference." I let it stand like that. Close enough. When the hospital chaplain made his call on me, I let him do his thing. He wanted to know if he could call family members or friends, or if I wanted him to call a clergyman of any particular faith--stuff like that. He was a pretty nice guy; not pushy or anything like that. He just tried to be helpful.

[kourama]

Someone mentioned that this should be in the religious thread, but it really is a political issue.

Basically, the idea is, no one should make disclosing wish superstitions you hold to be true a prerequisit to getting married, entering a hospital or anything other than entering a church.

<RANT>
Scratch that; churches are tax-free, which means I pay their share of taxes, and by DARWIN, I should have every right to go in there if I want to!
</RANT>

Most people here know that people will often discriminate against you for being an atheist, so it is clearly not right to demand that information from someone in these situations.

[jj]

Originally posted by EvilYeti


Help, help, see the violence apparent in atheism!!!! Help I'm being repressed!!!

PRESS
PRESS
PRESS!!!!

[daenku32]

If they won't accept my Religion in the field for "Religion", they'll be getting a law suit.

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by ceo_esq

The "religious affiliation" slot on hospital admission forms is generally an option offered merely as a convenience for patients and their families. As it happens, though, Yeti's speculation about concern over legal liability is eminently sensible. I had a similar reflection as soon as I read jj's post, and over the course of my career in law I've gotten pretty good at detecting the hidden hand of litigation (or the threat thereof) as an influence on institutional behavior.


Thanks for the support, I appreciate it, especially from an attorney. You must be one of the good ones!

I spent a harrowing year doing computer consulting for attorneys in New Jersey and developed a pretty good sense of their "modus operandi" in the process. I see the handiwork of our litigation-happy culture everywhere I go.

My point is not to belittle jj (well, maybe just a bit :rolleyes: ) but to point out that this is really not a religious issue, but a legal one. It's a very real, very serious problem and one I think is important to be aware of.

Crooked lawyers are a much bigger threat to America than pushy bible-bangers could ever hope to be. They love to smokescreen their true motives, we as skeptics should try our best to expose them.

[jj]

Originally posted by EvilYeti
[B]
but to point out that this is really not a religious issue, but a legal one. It's a very real, very serious problem and one I think is important to be aware of.
[B]

It's certainly serious if somebody strokes out while trying to dream up a religious affiliation.

I don't believe the legal excuse for a SECOND. If it were only that, the front-desk clerk wouldn't have launched into the "it's for the sake of your soul" horse baloney.

[Mel]

For reasons I don't understand, fundamentalists are afraid to be around people that think differently. I didn't know atheists were also. I thought atheists were more self assured and not hung up on the idea of conforming.

If this bothers and you'd like to do more than vent, why not write a letter to the hospital and lodge a formal complaint? Being belligerent towards the people in admissions does not cause change in policy, stating your case to the right people has a better chance of success.

[jj]

Originally posted by Mel
For reasons I don't understand, fundamentalists are afraid to be around people that think differently. I didn't know atheists were also. I thought atheists were more self assured and not hung up on the idea of conforming.
Is there a reason you think it's necessary to say this? Somehow, this personal attack, which is either ignorant or dishonest, seems to be simply an anti-atheist bit of propaganda, given as it tosses about a bunch of stereotypes and a few straw men.

I guess you don't care, then, at all, about the lives of atheists. Why should somebody have to MAKE SOMETHING UP when they are passing out?

Explain this to me, Mel, why should I have to engage in more cognitive effort when I'm barely able to do any, just because a clerk can't accept the truth? (Given the clerk and her minister's behavior, I can't accept the legal excuse for this one.)

If this bothers and you'd like to do more than vent, why not write a letter to the hospital and lodge a formal complaint? Being belligerent towards the people in admissions does not cause change in policy, stating your case to the right people has a better chance of success.
If you'd bother to read the thread, you'd know that I did quite a bit more than that, JUST NOT WHILE I WAS IN THE PROCESS OF ENTERING THE HOSPITAL AS AN EMERGENCY PATIENT. Why do you indicate an untruth?

You would have read, if you'd actually READ this thread, that with the help of the Jewish religions person (who was entirely civil, as was the Catholic chaplain), I got the "patient resource person" to send up a social worker, I politely opened admissions a new orifice in the process, explained about the moron who camped and tried to threaten me with damnation (btw, he also tried to imply that I wasn't going to get better until I choked down his crap) if I wouldn't plead with him for my immortal soul.

Now, don't start out on how this was threatening, it wasn't threatening, it was outright annoying. And he wouldn't leave, and I wasn't strong enough to escort him to the door at the time.

In any case, I dragged the patient rights person through a complaint review, etc, etc. And I already said that, SO WHY DID YOU JUST SUGGEST OTHERWISE?

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

[DrBenway]

jj,

I believe you were appropriately grumpy. As a fellow not-particularly-religious person, I stand beside you in the good fight.

:)