Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark

[webfusion]

Well, there has certainly been lively discussion here about the injection of teaching magical creationism (I-D) alongside science-based determination of evolutionary processes, but this news item caught my attention as being particularly nuts.
Museum of Earth History offers a display supporting the idea that Noah took dinosaurs onto the Ark

http://www.creationtruth.com/

Eureka Springs, Arkansas.

[slingblade]

Originally posted by webfusion
Well, there has certainly been lively discussion here about the injection of teaching magical creationism (I-D) alongside science-based determination of evolutionary processes, but this news item caught my attention as being particularly nuts.
Museum of Earth History offers a display supporting the idea that Noah took dinosaurs onto the Ark

http://www.creationtruth.com/

Eureka Springs, Arkansas.

Just an observation, but the location of this "museum" gives me considerable pause. I know Arkansas, as my father's family hails from there. Maybe not the buckle of the Bible Belt, but darned close.

My paternal grandparents (and most of their friends and relations) believed that dinosaur bones were put in the ground by the devil, to lead good Christians astray.

Just sayin'.

[corplinx]

One of the lesser known tasks given to Hercules was to go to Arkansas and find someone who family tree branched more than Hercules own. Hercules failed this task and it was revealed to have just been a joke as it was truly impossible Unfortunately this task isn't often included with anthologies such as Bullfinch.

[Unabogie]

I think some of them still contend that dinosaurs are a hoax.

Here, you too can build a 70 foot fossil out of chicken bones!

http://internet.ocii.com/~dpwozney/dinosaur.htm

[zenith-nadir]

The dimensions of the Ark given in Genesis chapter 6 verse 15: (cubit=1.5 feet)And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubitsThe Biblical Ark would have been 45 feet high, 75 feet in width, and 450 feet in length.

Therefore what was the total amount of water carried for the animals? The total weight of provisions? The total weight of vertebrates? Lets accept the premise that Noah took dinosaurs onto the Ark... say a couple 70-ton dinosaurs moved from starboard to port, what then? ;)

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Therefore what was the total amount of water carried for the animals?

Why would he need to carry water on the ark when he had such a huge supply falling from the sky?

[zenith-nadir]

Originally posted by Mycroft
Why would he need to carry water on the ark when he had such a huge supply falling from the sky? Then the collected rainwater for the animals would still have to be factored into the total weight of the ark's payload. ;)

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Then the collected rainwater for the animals would still have to be factored into the total weight of the ark's payload. ;)

You just have to factor in a lot less as a continuing supply means you don't need to carry a whole 40 days worth.

Just be sure you keep flushing those bilges. :)

[webfusion]

I was suddenly reminded of one of the classic routines by the comedian Bill Cosby, wherein he describes the entire scenario of Noah and the Ark.

http://www.jr.co.il/humor/noah4.txt


(BTW, jr is jacob richman, who runs a great resource site about Israel.)

[slingblade]

Originally posted by Mycroft
You just have to factor in a lot less as a continuing supply means you don't need to carry a whole 40 days worth.


From what I understand, and this is purely anecdotal, the phrase "40 days and 40 nights" simply means "a very long time."

Still, your point is a good one.
But I thought dinosaurs were extinct long before hominids showed up?

Anyway, yeah, it's all nuts.

[Orwell]

Dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago.

[Underemployed]

That's just what God wants you to think.

[webfusion]

"But I thought dinosaurs were extinct long before hominids showed up?"

You thought right. That's why this "Creation Truth" is a lie.


Underemployed says: That's just what God wants you to think.

Actually, as it is explained by the purveyors of this "truth", the bones of dinosaurs were placed in rock strata by the devil to lead mankind down a path of doubting the creation, and thus, doubting the power of god.

And so it goes...

Nonsense substituting for reality.

[Manny]

Well, hold on. Let's check the list.

green alligators
long-necked geese
humpty backed camels
chimpanzees
cats
rats
elephants


Nope. No dinosaurs. Unless you want to be pedantic and count the geese.

[slingblade]

Originally posted by manny
Well, hold on. Let's check the list.

green alligators
long-necked geese
humpty backed camels
chimpanzees
cats
rats
elephants

Nope. No dinosaurs. Unless you want to be pedantic and count the geese.

Great. Thanks for embedding this song into my brain. :p

[Hawk one]

Originally posted by Mycroft
You just have to factor in a lot less as a continuing supply means you don't need to carry a whole 40 days worth.

Just be sure you keep flushing those bilges. :)

It rained for 40 days and 40 nights, but they actually stayed in the ark for over a year.

A bit rusty on your bible knowledge, eh?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by slingblade
Great. Thanks for embedding this song into my brain. :p Ditto.

[Moon-Spinner]

Originally posted by manny
Well, hold on. Let's check the list.

green alligators
long-necked geese
humpty backed camels
chimpanzees
cats
rats
elephants


Nope. No dinosaurs. Unless you want to be pedantic and count the geese.

Well, let's see, the Unicorn could be misconstrued for a Monoclonius, but since we ain't got no more unicorns, I guess we ain't got no more dinosaurs.

[richardm]

Originally posted by Hawk one
It rained for 40 days and 40 nights, but they actually stayed in the ark for over a year.

No, feeding animals for a year raises too many difficult questions that might cause doubt in some Believers' minds. This is the correct way to deal with such free-thinking heretics:

Originally posted by slingblade
From what I understand, and this is purely anecdotal, the phrase "40 days and 40 nights" simply means "a very long time."

That's more like it! Anything that is a bit awkward is simply a problem with translation, remember? Well done to Brother Slingblade for keeping us right ;)

[Hawk one]

Originally posted by richardm
No, feeding animals for a year raises too many difficult questions that might cause doubt in some Believers' minds. This is the correct way to deal with such free-thinking heretics:

That's more like it! Anything that is a bit awkward is simply a problem with translation, remember? Well done to Brother Slingblade for keeping us right ;)

And let's not forget the trump card "God can do anything he wants!", and if someone points out the apparent lack of evidence, there's always the "Satan is responsible for that! You want Satan to get your soul and end up in eternal [size=3][/b]HELLFIRE?!?!?![size][/b]

Why do we spend time trying to overcome such magnificent and flawless arguments, richardm? ;)

[Beerina]

Originally posted by slingblade
My paternal grandparents (and most of their friends and relations) believed that dinosaur bones were put in the ground by the devil, to lead good Christians astray.

Fair enough.

The next question comes, "Why would God throw into Hell people who were lead astray by a scientifically accurate world?" and "Is such a God deserving of worship?"

It is important to emphasize the bizarreness of this point. God allows the Devil to alter the world in such a way that a proper, logical, scientific analysis of it shows the Bible to be false -- yet it is the world that is a lie, and God wants you to believe the Bible.

Uhhhhhh...ok.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Then the collected rainwater for the animals would still have to be factored into the total weight of the ark's payload. ;)

Actually I doubt the mixing with the ocean water would be enough to cause the salinity to be a problem. In other words, after adding some 5 miles of water to the surface of the Earth, a few months or whatever wouldn't be enough for mixture to occur. And even if you did, you're diluting all that salt by roughly 22x, which may be drinkable, at least for a few months. (Rough calculation as to mixing 2 miles of ocean over 72% of the surface of the earth with a 5 miles deep freshwater ocean over the entire earth.) Maybe a little less since the new average won't be 5 miles, but perhaps 4.5, depending on average land surface area and you only need to cover the tip of Everest. Let's say 18x dilution

[slingblade]

Originally posted by Beerina
Fair enough.

The next question comes, "Why would God throw into Hell people who were lead astray by a scientifically accurate world?" and "Is such a God deserving of worship?"

It is important to emphasize the bizarreness of this point. God allows the Devil to alter the world in such a way that a proper, logical, scientific analysis of it shows the Bible to be false -- yet it is the world that is a lie, and God wants you to believe the Bible.

Uhhhhhh...ok.

Are you trying to take on, through me, what my (now dead) grandparents believed as if I, too believe it?

Because I don't.

I'm atheist.

[seayakin]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Lets accept the premise that Noah took dinosaurs onto the Ark... say a couple 70-ton dinosaurs moved from starboard to port, what then? ;)

You are forgetting that Noah and his sons perfected the eskimo roll. I give them credit. When I want to get a you want a bomb proof roll you go to Noah.

Either that or the ark had one helluva set of outriggers.

[fishbob]

Originally posted by Mycroft
You just have to factor in a lot less as a continuing supply means you don't need to carry a whole 40 days worth.

Just be sure you keep flushing those bilges. :)

The bilge pump was not invented until approximately 2000 years later. A scared man with a bucket is supposed to be pretty efficient at keeping water out of a sinking boat. A disgusted man with a bucket might not be so effective at getting other fluids out of a stinking boat.

[slingblade]

Originally posted by richardm
No, feeding animals for a year raises too many difficult questions that might cause doubt in some Believers' minds.
That's more like it! Anything that is a bit awkward is simply a problem with translation, remember? Well done to Brother Slingblade for keeping us right ;)

SISTER Slingblade, thanks. ;)

And once again, I don't believe Thumper dictum.
I'm only saying I've heard that "40 days and 40 nights" isn't literal.

It hardly makes me a Jesus Freak, and I don't even know I'm correct. Anecdotal, 'member?

[Ashles]

Originally posted by Hawk one
And let's not forget the trump card "God can do anything he wants!"
Well that's one of my questions about the whole flood story - why did God have to drown everyone?

He could have just made them all instantly dead or disappear, rather than forcing them to spend their last few minutes terrified and suffocating/drowning. That's just sadistic.

And what of all the new born babies? Why did they all have to die?

Come to think of it, surely Noah wasn't the only good man on earth?

And why kill all the innocent animals?

And... and...


Calm down dear, it's only a story.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by slingblade
My paternal grandparents (and most of their friends and relations) believed that dinosaur bones were put in the ground by the devil, to lead good Christians astray.

As the great Bill Hicks once said:

Fundamentalist Christians believe the world is 12 thousand years old... I asked this guy, I said: "Come on, man, dinosaur fossils. What's the deal?" He goes, "God put those here to test our faith."

"I think God put you here to test my faith, dude."

[slingblade]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
As the great Bill Hicks once said:

Fundamentalist Christians believe the world is 12 thousand years old... I asked this guy, I said: "Come on, man, dinosaur fossils. What's the deal?" He goes, "God put those here to test our faith."

"I think God put you here to test my faith, dude."


:D I began asking questions about my religion when I was a mere slip of a girl. One thing no one could ever explain, at least in a way that made sense to me:

If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, why does he need to test me, when he obviously already knows I'll either fail or succeed?

I don't call such things "tests." I'd call them "torture," if I still believed.

[SezMe]

Originally posted by Beerina
Actually I doubt the mixing with the ocean water would be enough to cause the salinity to be a problem. In other words, after adding some 5 miles of water to the surface of the Earth, a few months or whatever wouldn't be enough for mixture to occur. And even if you did, you're diluting all that salt by roughly 22x, which may be drinkable, at least for a few months. (Rough calculation as to mixing 2 miles of ocean over 72% of the surface of the earth with a 5 miles deep freshwater ocean over the entire earth.) Maybe a little less since the new average won't be 5 miles, but perhaps 4.5, depending on average land surface area and you only need to cover the tip of Everest. Let's say 18x dilution
Jeeeebus, Beerina, you're trying to think logically about this. Get with the program...believe. I mean BELIEVE. Just BELIEVE. If 1"Christ was still around, he'd condemn you to hellfire.

[richardm]

Originally posted by slingblade
SISTER Slingblade, thanks. ;)



Oops, sorry!


And once again, I don't believe Thumper dictum.
I'm only saying I've heard that "40 days and 40 nights" isn't literal.


Funnily enough, I had gathered that ;) But nevertheless it is a tactic that is used. If you are sufficiently gullible, then X days is all it took, mallum? If you say "But that hardly sounds credible", then it becomes "Oh, well, when they say 'Day' they mean 'Period', or 'That is just shorthand for "Long Time'." Quite pathetic really.

Anecdotal, 'member?

Is this some sort of veiled sexual insult? :D

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by Beerina
Actually I doubt the mixing with the ocean water would be enough to cause the salinity to be a problem. In other words, after adding some 5 miles of water to the surface of the Earth, a few months or whatever wouldn't be enough for mixture to occur. And even if you did, you're diluting all that salt by roughly 22x, which may be drinkable, at least for a few months. (Rough calculation as to mixing 2 miles of ocean over 72% of the surface of the earth with a 5 miles deep freshwater ocean over the entire earth.) Maybe a little less since the new average won't be 5 miles, but perhaps 4.5, depending on average land surface area and you only need to cover the tip of Everest. Let's say 18x dilution

Your workings above are missing a very important point.

What about the homeopathic impact of such a dilution? As the existing ocean contained a small quantity of fish (by volume) and was then diluted by the flood water, drinking the flood water would result in homeopathic eating of fish, thereby solving the problem of the Ark needing to carry food supplies for all the animals.

[karl]

Originally posted by Beerina
Actually I doubt the mixing with the ocean water would be enough to cause the salinity to be a problem. In other words, after adding some 5 miles of water to the surface of the Earth [...]

5 miles in 40 days and 40 nights? That's over 27 feet per hour, which unless I'm mistaken is a few hundred times more intense than any rainfall that occurs naturally on the planet. Has anyone tested what this would do to a boat or any other alleged wooden structure of the time?

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by karl
5 miles in 40 days and 40 nights? That's over 27 feet per hour, which unless I'm mistaken is a few hundred times more intense than any rainfall that occurs naturally on the planet. Has anyone tested what this would do to a boat or any other alleged wooden structure of the time?

If the flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights, surely you need to allow some time for the water to evaporate? Therefore the rate of fall would need to be considerably higher than you calculate.

[Manny]

Well, remember, you've got the "all the springs of the great deep burst(ing) forth." (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%207:11;&version=31;) So not all that water was coming from above.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by slingblade
Are you trying to take on, through me, what my (now dead) grandparents believed as if I, too believe it?

Because I don't.

I'm atheist.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound attacking. I just enjoy constructing the logical consequences from positions.




Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
If the flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights, surely you need to allow some time for the water to evaporate? Therefore the rate of fall would need to be considerably higher than you calculate.

It rained for that time. Evidently it took over a year for the water to evaporate. Actually, that's impossible, too. The atmosphere couldn't hold 5 miles of liquid water in vapor form. Therefore some must have drained down into The Underworld.


27 feet per hour would be quite a problem for uncovered boats -- you'd have to bail awfully fast.

And presumably God deliberately capsized what were no doubt thousands of covered boats, lest they survive the flood, too. Heck, probably tens of thousands. Even if every single person on land were too stupid to go get on a boat when it started flooding, there were still many out at sea, and thus well-provisioned. And many were fishing, which could continue to catch fish to survive indefinitely, although most saltwater fish would have died due to the massive change in salinity (I presume. IANAB.) And the vast disturbances in ocean patterns, combined with lack of landmarks would make knowing where to fish very difficult indeed.

[Beerina]

Wait, I forgot about the Eskimos hanging out on the ice in the Arctic. That would have just floated higher and higher. They wouldn't have even noticed as the air would have been pushed up, too, and thus atmospheric pressure would have stayed roughly the same.

Maybe God slew them, too, by sending the polar bears around. He's been known to kill people with bears before.

Hey, shouldn't there be Antarctic ice core layers that indicate a flood (or layer of mildly salt water) being deposited well to the interior of the continent? Or if all the ice there floated off the land, underneath on the bottom of it?

Presumably God erased that evidence, lest it prove His existence. Or maybe the Devil erased it, lest it prove God's existence. What man can judge the mind of God?

[richardm]

Originally posted by Beerina
Wait, I forgot about the Eskimos hanging out on the ice in the Arctic. That would have just floated higher and higher. They wouldn't have even noticed as the air would have been pushed up, too, and thus atmospheric pressure would have stayed roughly the same.

Maybe God slew them, too

Yes, all the Eskimos died, because by your own calculations they were suddenly five miles higher and everyone knows that it is very cold when you are high up, and it's cold to start with in the Arctic so they would have died.

All the polar bears and penguins died as well. The polar bears walked back there from Mt. Ararat, but the penguins found it too far to walk with their short legs and so are only found at the South Pole today, which is nearer to Mt. Ararat, especially if you use maps and measurements contemporary to the flood, which were notoriously inaccurate.

If this is not strong evidence, I don't know what is.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Beerina
Actually I doubt the mixing with the ocean water would be enough to cause the salinity to be a problem. In other words, after adding some 5 miles of water to the surface of the Earth, a few months or whatever wouldn't be enough for mixture to occur. And even if you did, you're diluting all that salt by roughly 22x, which may be drinkable, at least for a few months. (Rough calculation as to mixing 2 miles of ocean over 72% of the surface of the earth with a 5 miles deep freshwater ocean over the entire earth.) Maybe a little less since the new average won't be 5 miles, but perhaps 4.5, depending on average land surface area and you only need to cover the tip of Everest. Let's say 18x dilution O.K., You have dealt with the fresh drinking water problem.. Now deal with what happened to the salt-water fish...

[seayakin]

Originally posted by richardm
but the penguins found it too far to walk with their short legs and so are only found at the South Pole today

Um, penguins do swim long distances and eat fish so maybe they just swam for 40 days and 40 nights.

[richardm]

Originally posted by seayakin
Um, penguins do swim long distances and eat fish so maybe they just swam for 40 days and 40 nights.

So are you suggesting that penguins used their God-Given talents to escape the righteous wrath of God? Because I'm sure penguins would know better than to challenge the Word of the Lord in such a manner, even if you don't.

Proposal: Penguins are Not God-Fearing animals.

We burn heretics.
No penguin has ever been burned for heresy.
Therefore Penguins are God-Fearing animals who would happily drown as God intended.

Thank you.

[seayakin]

Originally posted by richardm
So are you suggesting that penguins used their God-Given talents to escape the righteous wrath of God? Because I'm sure penguins would know better than to challenge the Word of the Lord in such a manner, even if you don't.

Proposal: Penguins are Not God-Fearing animals.

We burn heretics.
No penguin has ever been burned for heresy.
Therefore Penguins are God-Fearing animals who would happily drown as God intended.

Thank you.

I think God was just after the sinful people. The animals were just unimportant collateral damage who were there to server people anyway.

Penguins as a species just saved Noah the trouble of having to gather a pair since they know how to swim. Maybe that held true for all swimming animals. Maybe he didn't gather two seagulls either.:D

[slingblade]

Originally posted by richardm
Oops, sorry!

S'okay. I think I was a lil cranky that day. No harm, no foul, no fowl. :)

Funnily enough, I had gathered that ;) But nevertheless it is a tactic that is used. If you are sufficiently gullible, then X days is all it took, mallum? If you say "But that hardly sounds credible", then it becomes "Oh, well, when they say 'Day' they mean 'Period', or 'That is just shorthand for "Long Time'." Quite pathetic really.

Ah! Again, sowwy. Cranky. Floggings are at six, do be prompt.
I hate to wait for a deserved smacking around.

Is this some sort of veiled sexual insult? :D

Uh........YES! Yes, the member is anecdotal! A figment of the imagination! I don't have one, therefore no one has one and.....

I think I forgot my meds.

;)

[delphi_ote]

But witches don't drown when you put them in water. Penguins don't drown and are black.

Penguins are witches. Q.E.D.

[Magyar]

Originally posted by Beerina
Fair enough.

The next question comes, "Why would God throw into Hell people who were lead astray by a scientifically accurate world?" and "Is such a God deserving of worship?"

It is important to emphasize the bizarreness of this point. God allows the Devil to alter the world in such a way that a proper, logical, scientific analysis of it shows the Bible to be false -- yet it is the world that is a lie, and God wants you to believe the Bible.

Uhhhhhh...ok.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=1871022843#post1871022843

I think the more important question here is;
If the devil can actively manipulate the world and be in opposition to god in such fashion, then how can god be omnipotent and therefor how can he possibly be infallible? If he is neither infallible nor omnipotent how can the alleged word of god be infallible?

THe only other alternative is that god IS omnipotent and the devil is one of "gods creatures" but then god is most definately not benevolent! You can't have it both ways!

[Beerina]

Originally posted by Diogenes
O.K., You have dealt with the fresh drinking water problem.. Now deal with what happened to the salt-water fish...

They all died and started stinking. Noah provisioned his ark. It's the other vessels at sea that, presumably not being provisioned for one year or more, would all eventually starve to death.

Although some vessels at sea could have caught seals and ate 'em, I guess. Were seals on the ark? They could probably survive a year at sea, AND survive salt or fresh water. The lack of food due to dead fish due to change in salinity could be a problem, though. Porpoises? They'll prolly survive the fresh water since they don't die after beeing trapped for weeks in harbors.

Maybe they, and the fish, got good at swimming down deep to the volcanic vents where there's lots of nice tidbits swimmin' 'round. The salinity probably didn't change in one year deep down in the ocean.

Although it's tough enough for stage-III water mammals (whales, dolphins, etc.) to dive a mile or two down. To go 5 + 2 = 8 miles or more down would be impossible for a stage-II water mammal (seals, walrusi, etc.) Stage-I water mammals (otters, beavers, etc.) ferget it!

[Beerina]

Originally posted by delphi_ote
But witches don't drown when you put them in water. Penguins don't drown and are black.

Penguins are witches. Q.E.D.

"Tell me more about this...science."

[Random]

Wait a minute. I thought that creationists thought that the extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by their not getting onto the ark in the first place. This is a major difference of opinion. I propose a rigorous scientific debate between creationists over whether or not dinosaurs were aboard the ark.

[Manny]

Originally posted by Random
Wait a minute. I thought that creationists thought that the extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by their not getting onto the ark in the first place. This is a major difference of opinion. I propose a rigorous scientific debate between creationists over whether or not dinosaurs were aboard the ark. Resolved, dinosaurs were on the ark.


PRO: God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

CON: God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

[TragicMonkey]

The capacity problem of the Ark is solved if you believe that Noah was a Time Lord and the Ark his Tardis.

The bigger problem would be stopping the dinosaurs from eating each other, the mammals, and Noah himself.

The expression "There's only two tyrannosaurs, two allosaurs, two gorgosaurs, two ceratosaurs, and two daspletosaurs so we don't need to worry" has never been uttered. At least not without being followed by "Argh! No! crunch crunch gurgle crunch splat".

[Random]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
The bigger problem would be stopping the dinosaurs from eating each other, the mammals, and Noah himself.

The expression "There's only two tyrannosaurs, two allosaurs, two gorgosaurs, two ceratosaurs, and two daspletosaurs so we don't need to worry" has never been uttered. At least not without being followed by "Argh! No! crunch crunch gurgle crunch splat".
Well, several decades ago, an ancient scroll was found in a cave in Jordan. On the delicate wrinkled paper, there was a contract written in Aramaic. It was a fairly straightforward arrangement, whereby all the undersigned agreed not to eat each other until after the crisis had been resolved. At the bottom, along with human signatures, there were also a variety of pawprints, beakprints, and other strange animal markings.

Scientists quickly identified it as the Covenant of the Ark.

[Roadtoad]

Originally posted by Random
Well, several decades ago, an ancient scroll was found in a cave in Jordan. On the delicate wrinkled paper, there was a contract written in Aramaic. It was a fairly straightforward arrangement, whereby all the undersigned agreed not to eat each other until after the crisis had been resolved. At the bottom, along with human signatures, there were also a variety of pawprints, beakprints, and other strange animal markings.

Scientists quickly identified it as the Covenant of the Ark.

For a bad joke like that, you should be condemned to HELLFIRE!!!

(Thanks, Hawk, for the reminder. No really. Just for that, I'll pull up the subtitles for the opening credits of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.)

[Random]

Originally posted by Roadtoad
For a bad joke like that, you should be condemned to HELLFIRE!!! [/i]
Bah, I’ve had that bad joke bouncing around in my head for three years now, and Tragicmonkey went and did the setup. It was inevitable.

Besides, tell me you aren’t itching for a chance to use that one…:D

[E.J.Armstrong]

Museum of Earth History offers a display supporting the idea that Noah took dinosaurs onto the Ark
What really scares me is the number of good ol boys believing this stuff. Who puts the stupid juice in the water over there?

[webfusion]

It's bad enough that US kids are stupid. We don't need a program, Senator Frist, that actually teaches them to be stupid, or tells that that it's okay to be stupid, as long as their stupidity is faith-based.

Stupidity in the name of religion is still stupidity.

quote:"I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith," Frist said.

Speaking of stupid, this remark fall into that category. Let me explain why, and I'll use short words.

"Faith" is not "fact." "Faith" is a point of view or a state of mind. It is trust in something to be true. But just because there is faith in something, that doesn't make the thing being trusted true.

"Faith" is not information, it is not data, it is not knowledge, it is not cognizance, it is not theory, it is not research, it is not learning, it is not experimentation, it is not even philosophy or wisdom. It is a purely personal and completely subjective mindset.

Does he also support teaching of Flying Spaghetti Monsterism and Intelligent Falling theory too?
posted by BROWN, in the "Frist backs teaching ID" thread.

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by manny
Resolved, dinosaurs were on the ark.


PRO: God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

CON: God said it, I believe it, that settles it.

Cognitive dissonance is the best tool of all for self brainwashing!

[CapelDodger]

What about the microbes? Will nobody think of the microbes? Be it a party of two or seven, the animals will have to carry all their species-specific diseases and parasites on board (so to speak), and survive for forty days. Maybe the dinosaurs weren't up to it and were lost in transit, along with their parasites and dependent microbes.

The loss of a major clade might be expected to make it into the records, but on the other hand I'm not aware of any species recorded as not making it through the Wet Days so there's probably been some editing. It's impossible to believe, given the tight schedule and limited expertise involved, that the first implementation of the plan went flawlessly.

[Manny]

Silly Capel, microbes were an post-diluvian introduction. Prior to the flood, no animals ate meat, so they didn't need nasty intestinal foreigners. There were also no diseases. Did the Bible mention anyone getting sick prior to the Flood? I didn't think so, smartypants. Indeed some theologians believe that microbes are the form in which pre-Jesus souls spend purgatory.

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by manny
There were also no diseases. Did the Bible mention anyone getting sick prior to the Flood? I didn't think so, smartypants.Not even the odd leper? I hadn't noticed that. Thinking on it, it's mostly blunt-force trauma and drowning in the early chapters. I stand corrected.

[asthmatic camel]

Presumably, Noah took aboard a breeding pair of scabies mites. Since these little critters can't survive away from the body, breed like rabbits on viagra and cause almost intolerable itching and consequent scarring, I should think that Noah and his family wouldn't have been looking too clever when the Ark landed on Ararat.

[Manny]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Not even the odd leper? I hadn't noticed that. Thinking on it, it's mostly blunt-force trauma and drowning in the early chapters. I stand corrected. [/B] You know, I'm not even sure. I just made that up to sound like a mock-fundy. But yeah, now that I think about it it might be right. Not a lot happened before Noah. Garden, sin, expulsion, murder. Then a whole lot of begats, then apparently a lot of sin again, then the flood, and then those guys weren't out of the ark for a month and another sin.

I'm starting to think this God guy wasn't such a hot judge of character.

[CapelDodger]

Originally posted by manny
You know, I'm not even sure. I just made that up to sound like a mock-fundy. But yeah, now that I think about it it might be right. You've got the voice down well, or the Lord spoke through you ... The first mention of leprosy, for what it's worth, is Exodus 4:6 as a sign given to Moses from upstairs. These days you'd get an e-mail, gotta love progress.

Please, nobody get graphic on leprosy. The scabies pic is more than I needed.

[Ashles]

And let's not forget that the number of animals that got on the Ark may well have been greater than the number that got off.

Noah: ...okay that's two crocodiles, two tigers, two unicorns, two lions [crunch! crunch!] Break it up! Break it up! Right where was I? Oh yes, two crocodiles, two tigers, two lions...

[delphi_ote]

Originally posted by Ashles
And let's not forget that the number of animals that got on the Ark may well have been greater than the number that got off.

Noah: ...okay that's two crocodiles, two tigers, two unicorns, two lions [crunch! crunch!] Break it up! Break it up! Right where was I? Oh yes, two crocodiles, two tigers, two lions...

And what about the opposite problem? What about ending up with more animals than got on the ark?

Noah: ... okay that's two giraffes, two goats, two bunnies [CENSORED!!!] Break it up! Break it up! Right where was I? Oh yes, two giraffes, two goats, nineteen bunnies...

[Daylight]

Given the number of people on the ark, could they keep up with shoveling all the poop overboard?

What about the smell below deck, or consider the methane trapped below. If Noah went below with one of the open flame lamps of the time would the resulting explosion sink the ark?

Maybe there were several arks and Noah’s was the only one that didn’t explode?

Also since we are all descended from Noah’s family, was two of every race on board? Where did all the people of different races come from that currently make up the human species?

[delphi_ote]

How did Noah avoid getting eaten while bringing lions and tigers and bears aboard?

[sackett]

richardm says: “but the penguins found it too far to walk with their short legs and so are only found at the South Pole today�

Not so. There are penguins in the Galapagos and in New Zealand. Those are islands way out in the middle of the ocean sea. I suppose the penguins JUST SWAM there with those little flippers, right? Noah COULDN’T POSSIBLY have dropped them off during that WHOLE YEAR he was afloat, correct? Start squirming, Mr. Skeptic!

[Meadmaker]

For what it's worth,over the last two or more decades, I have had occaision to discuss this whole ark capacity problem with a few people who believe it, as I am sure many others also have had this opportunity.

I was surprised when I hit on something that actually made some biblical literalists say,"Gee, I never thought of that." Granted none of them ever said, "Gee, you're right. Maybe it's only a fable.", but getting them to admit that they don't have an answer might be that first step.

Anyway, worries about provisions, death, etcetera never work. If you say that the lions need to eat, they will say the Lord can make the lion lie down with the lamb, and he did so on the ark.

If you talk about fresh and saltwater fish, that's a no brainer for them (which is appropriate). God took care of them. Exactly why it would be more difficult for God to let a bear breathe underwater than to have a tuna suddenly survive in diluted water is something I don't grasp, but maybe I'm just not with the Spirit.

Basically, all the rather ridiculous laws of physics that would have to be broken, but only selectively, don't bother them when it comes to the time spent on the ark. God did it, so there.

But, for some reason, I have had success pointing out what must have happened after the animals left the ark. Specifically, the whole problem of repopulating the food chain.

The problem is that until the mice get around to breeding, a lot, the cats don't have anything to eat. There's a whole ecosystem that had to be reestablished. Noah had to navigate with the ark to South America, and there, he dropped off the two parrots and the two Jaguars. Now, what. It's going to be years before the prey breeds enough to provide a good meal for the predators.

Logically, this is no more ridiculous than having an anaconda find it's way to the coast of the mediterranean to get on a boat, but then not eat either of the kapi-barras until the rain stopped. However, for some reason, I have had fundies acknowledge that the post - ark food chain seemed to be a problem with the Biblical tale.

I think the problem is that all of the parts mentioned in the Bible get sort of a special "get out of physics free" card. The believers accept it all as a magical time when God did everything the way he wanted to, until the waters receeded. However, for some reason, the believers sometimes don't want to extend that period of modified physics for the period of several years where nature just wouldn't work right. In their mind, God told Noah about the flood. Noah got the animals. The waters receded. Animals and people got off the ark, and then the world returned to its normal order.

But this couldn't really have happened, because the carnivores would have starved to death there were enough critters in the low end of the food chain to keep everyone fed. For some reason, I have actually had limited success in getting fundies to acknowledge that something didn't make sense through this line of reasoning, whereas I have never had any success pointing out the impracticality of having a boat with 2 of every species.

Try it some time. Your results may vary. Past performance is no guarantee of future results.

[Beerina]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Please, nobody get graphic on leprosy. The scabies pic is more than I needed.

It's a good thing Peyronie's disease isn't caused by microbes or parasites.

Although genetics is one possible cause, and since evolution doesn't occur, therefore mutations don't, and therefore all mutations have always existed, so Noah must have brought that along too.

[Anti_Hypeman]

I just saw a show yesterday on one of the religious channels where they claimed that dinos fit on the ark because they took baby dinos. They guy said "you wouldnt take grandpa to recreate a population you take the teenagers". His remarks were met with thunderous applause.

[fishbob]

Originally posted by TragicMonkey
The capacity problem of the Ark is solved if you believe that Noah was a Time Lord and the Ark his Tardis.

. . . the Ark his Tardis . . .

Say that out loud about a dozen times. Then everything becomes clear.

[E.J.Armstrong]

Moses. What a guy - ensuring that every species of microscopic oceanic life got into just the right age of sediments.