Darnit. I really like Santana too...

[Ducky]

Santana employee fired when his consciousness was calibrated and determined to be too low. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/18/people.santana.ap/index.html)

Fired for Spiritual Evolution being too low. Bah!

I like Santana too. This makes me sad that he and his wife are that woo.

Anyone know who the "Dr. Dan" Santana employed is?

[RapmasterT]

I read that article this morning and had much the same reaction. But I couldn't generate much emotion over it beyond disappointment that Santana is a "believer".

People who are personally employed by wealthy people kind of have to operate at the whims of their employer. Linda McCartney was fairly notorious for the vegetarianism requirements she forced on her staff.

Personally, if I were wealthy enough to employ a personal assistant, I'd cut them loose the first second they showed signs of being a religious/new age/alternative nutjob. So I can't really fault Santana for doing the same (if opposite) thing.

[Lisa Simpson]

I have no idea who "Dr. Dan" might be, although a Dr. Dan Monti, espousing NET was in What the $&*# Do We Know.

For your daily skeptichuckle read this:

http://www.netmindbody.com/patients/net-explained.asp

[Bikewer]

Carlos has been like very spiritual,man, for many years. I remember reading his interview in Guitar Player, and he was constantly wandering off into rather woo areas.

[kalen]

And the fired employee is suing.

I guess that's what you'd expect from a person with a low spiritual calibration.

[CurtC]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
For your daily skeptichuckle read this:

http://www.netmindbody.com/patients/net-explained.asp Pretty woo, but I gotta say, that's a GREAT looking web page.

[Ducky]

Originally posted by Bikewer
Carlos has been like very spiritual,man, for many years. I remember reading his interview in Guitar Player, and he was constantly wandering off into rather woo areas.


That's the thing, I almost never read the interviews of musicians. Maybe if I had I wouldn't be so let down.

[shecky]

Yeah, he's been a woo for decades. He was a Sri Chinmoy follower for a long time going at least back to the 70s. I would not be surprised if he'd been a woo from before his summer of love days.

[john kavanagh]

most highly artistic people are that way inclined - we need them for art, music etc and they need us to build bridges:D

[DavoMan]

Personally I always kinda thought that to some degree. I have always hated poetry and still do. In fact, I hate most forms of art. And I hate almost all fiction. Except music. Music without words. Yeah. Thats the stuff.

[John de Combe]

Originally posted by Bikewer
Carlos has been like very spiritual,man, for many years.

When I was a kid, "very spiritual man" would have seemed to me like a huge compliment and implied great learning and wisdom.

Whereas these days it's how I'd describe a halfwit ;)

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by John de Combe
When I was a kid, "very spiritual man" would have seemed to me like a huge compliment and implied great learning and wisdom.

Whereas these days it's how I'd describe a halfwit ;) I'm with ya on that one. Receintly I realised its the same with people who concider themselves 'enlightened'.

[tkingdoll]

Don't let his personal beliefs put you off his music.

If I did that I'd have to throw out at least half of my record collection, and almost all of my favourite artists/songs/songwriters were either woo or religious.

Sometimes I'll be listening to a song that is cleary about god, and someone will say the old "I thought you were an atheist" blah blah. I reply, who cares what the song is about, listen to that damn bassline!

When Donny Hathaway sings, it sends shivers down my spine. Who cares if the lyrics are about Jesus?

When Graham Central Station play, I get up and dance and make stupid 'bass faces'. So what if they're thanking God for the music?

If I listen to Al Green singing Simply Beautiful, I couldn't care less what church he's now a reverend of.

Santana's beliefs don't devalue his music, and they may be what inspires him. It's possible that if he wasn't wooish, he wouldn't make the music he does.

As Jimi Hendrix said: “I suppose human beings have to believe in something, they feel they have to be directed in some way, have to have something to follow, regardless of whether it’s true or not.�

[Achán hiNidráne]

Originally posted by kalen
And the fired employee is suing.

I guess that's what you'd expect from a person with a low spiritual calibration.

I hope the employee wins. To my thinking, this is a clear case of religious discrimination.

[ungoliant]

who cares what a person believes as long as they don't try to impress it on me in some way. santana makes good music. maybe his woo helps him. the mind is a strange place and works in strange ways.

i would also fire any religious fundie who worked for me, so i guess turnabout is fair play.

remember santana once said, at a news conference, that he prayed for a recently departed friend to show him a sign and at that instant a comet crossed the sky above him.

woo-hoo!

[BillHoyt]

Originally posted by fowlsound
That's the thing, I almost never read the interviews of musicians. Maybe if I had I wouldn't be so let down.
I'm not sure whether to suggest you read many such interviews (to build up your immunity here) or to suggest you never read them so you don't have to choose your favorite entertainers based on woo-rational continuum. ;D

More seriously, though, I'm a musician and good friends with dozens of other musicians. I've also been an avid reader of DownBeat and Jazziz. Many of them are in constant search of "their muses." Many immerse themselves in belief systems they think will help them stay close to their muses and to keep the creative juices flowing. And that, I think, is the crux of the matter. They don't understand where inspiration, creativity and newness comes from, so they're overly eager to latch onto any authority that explains it to them and promises them more muses to come.

I had to wince years ago when I helped a friend put on a church performance. (And so did my great guitarist buddy, also a skeptic.) She wanted to do a modern christian "white gospel" piece. It was an anti-abortion song. I'm pro-choice. The original recording used a violin for color and to sound like babies crying. I worked hard to improvise similar moods and colors on soprano sax, wincing all the way. After the performance, the minister came up to me, with tears in his eyes, to tell me he heard the babies crying in my music. I thanked him profusely, but inside I shook my head and felt like a hired gun for the opposition. But I did it for the love of my friend, and, in situations like that, that takes precedence.

[Edited to add: I enjoy Tom Cruise in movie after movie. I wince and shake my fist at that a**hole he turns into during interviews when he gets on his scientology-infused jags. Oh, well, so he's got a Jones for whacked-out sci-fi writers who confused some bad sci-fi inspiration with manuensis. Woo-woo.]

[Achán hiNidráne]

Originally posted by ungoliant
who cares what a person believes as long as they don't try to impress it on me in some way...

i would also fire any religious fundie who worked for me, so i guess turnabout is fair play.


It would seem to me that firing someone for holding beliefs other than the employer's is clearly an attempt "impess" belief. What better way to force conformity of thought by holding their livelyhood over their heads?

If you're willing to fire a fundie because he would do the same to you if given chance, how does this make you better than the fundie?

[ungoliant]

maybe you are stretching my words to places i didn't take them. i didn't imply an attempt to change anyone's belief. and anyone who changes their belief for a job isn't really a believer. i simply was sympathizing with the impulse to hire only like-minded people.

now, is it legal to fire someone because of a belief? i am not so sure. that is why santana is being sued. and also why i would have to be careful in my hiring practice, if i were to become an employer.

[juryjone]

Originally posted by BillHoyt
After the performance, the minister came up to me, with tears in his eyes, to tell me he heard the babies crying in my music. I thanked him profusely, but inside I shook my head and felt like a hired gun for the opposition. But I did it for the love of my friend, and, in situations like that, that takes precedence.

I've done quite a bit of theater, and I've played jerks and ******** - people I wouldn't even want to meet. That's what being an actor is about.

I've also sung in quite a few churches. If someone wants to believe that I really feel what I'm singing about, then I've succeeded as a performer.

That said, I would feel exactly the way you did. Because when you're on a stage, the audience knows it's a performance, and when you're in a church, they know it's not.

[juryjone]

Originally posted by Lisa Simpson
For your daily skeptichuckle read this:

http://www.netmindbody.com/patients/net-explained.asp

Oh my Ed!

Applied kinesiology by any other name would smell as foul.

[Lisa Simpson]

Originally posted by juryjone
Oh my Ed!

Applied kinesiology by any other name would smell as foul.

Heck, they admit it's applied kinesiology.

Dr. Scott Walker developed Neuro-Emotional Technique™ or NET™ in the early 1980’s as a stress reduction technique. Dr. Walker is a chiropractor by training, who uses Applied Kinesiology or AK. AK is based on Chinese medicine, acupuncture and the Meridian System. Chinese medicine is concerned with the body’s need for balance or homeostasis. If the Chi or energy of the body is in balance then it is assumed that the body will be able to cure itself and run at top efficiency. Practitioners do this by testing acupressure or acupuncture points in the body, which are divided up into 12 main Meridian Systems. These Meridian Systems are named for the main organs of the body such as the Lung Meridian or the Liver Meridian. Each of these systems is correlated with particular emotions. The lung meridian is associated with grief and sorrow and the liver meridian with anger and resentment.

Applied Kinesiology tests the Chi or energy by taking a strong indicator muscle, any strong muscle, and asking the client or patient to lock their muscle as the practitioner tries to challenge the strength of that muscle by pushing or pulling the area to see if it will hold. The practitioner might ask a client to hold their arm straight out in front of them and lock it while the clinician with an open hand firmly pushes down on the arm right above the wrist. This checks to see if the arm will hold. Almost any major muscle will work for muscle testing.

Why aren't cops using this as a cheap lie-detector?

Dr. Walker adapted and built on Dr. Goodhearts’ work by applying AK to the emotions. Emotions are energy. Emotions can be tested through the electrical system of the body. Therefore, if a muscle tests strong in the clear and then the Neuro-Emotional Technique™ or NET™ recipient thinks of some issue that is upsetting, that previously strong muscle will become weak. Dr. Walker believes that what he is testing is the “emotional reality� of the body. This means that theoretically if a person believes an untruth his muscle testing will be consistent with that belief.

However, the emotional belief of a client, at least when they are not psychotic, is usually consistent with reality. Therefore, if a person says “My name is Sam� and his name is Sam, a muscle test of that statement will be congruent and will hold strong. The reverse is equally true. A clinician can now test how a person is feeling even if they do not consciously know how they are feeling. A therapist can now trace present feelings and problems a person is suffering from, and discover if there is an original trauma or feeling that the present problem or feeling is reactivating.

and this...

Neuro-Emotional Techniqueâ„¢ or NETâ„¢ seems to work in several ways:

1. It diagnosis problems and feelings.
2. It accesses the subconscious.
3. It discovers early traumas and how those traumas relate to present problems.
4. It acts as a biofeedback loop, which teaches people what they are feeling.
5. It increases congruence between the Human Brain composed of the Cerebral Cortex and the Pre Frontal Cortex, the Limbic system or Mammalian Brain, the Medulla Oblongata or Reptilian Brain, and the Endorphin System, which is an even more primitive brain located in each cell of the body and
6. This congruence thereby increases overall mental, emotional and physical health. The possibilities for the spiritual side of man are also immense.
7. It acts as a general stress reduction technique and lowers stress significantly on the cellular level.

Edited to include the wacky woo website o' the week.

http://www.psychnet-uk.com/readers_articles/neuro_emotional.htm

[Nucular]

If I hired someone who was, or later became, a fundy, a gellerite, a dowser or a Moslem, I'd expect to be held to account if I fired them for that reason.

Regardless of belief, if a person can do their job, they should be able to feel secure.

Personal difference, argument and discussion is one thing; but what Santana and some on this thread espouse is discrimination, and that's something entirely different.

[Tricky]

Well gosh, Santana's latest big-hit album was called "Supernatural", fer crying out loud. What else would you expect?

[Dogdoctor]

Originally posted by Tricky
Well gosh, Santana's latest big-hit album was called "Supernatural", fer crying out loud. What else would you expect?
Correct me if I am wrong but I think his latest alblum is called "Shaman" not Supernatural which was the one prior but again those two should give you a clue. Still he is quite the amazing musician, just not so great at philosophy. He has struggled with issues of religion over the years. I think like many very rich people he surrounds himself with people who will not attack his closely held beleifs.

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Dogdoctor
Correct me if I am wrong but I think his latest alblum is called "Shaman" not Supernatural which was the one prior but again those two should give you a clue. Still he is quite the amazing musician, just not so great at philosophy. He has struggled with issues of religion over the years. I think like many very rich people he surrounds himself with people who will not attack his closely held beleifs.
You're probably right about his last album, which is why I specified "big hit". Supernatural had a couple of very widely played songs and got lots of Grammy nominations, as I recall. But we do seem to see a trend with his naming of albums, do we not? In fact, I thing his big hit back in the seventies Abraxas (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/a/abraxas.html) has mystical connotations too. Oye Como Va!

[Kopji]

Originally posted by fowlsound
Santana employee fired when his consciousness was calibrated and determined to be too low. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/18/people.santana.ap/index.html)

Fired for Spiritual Evolution being too low. Bah!

I like Santana too. This makes me sad that he and his wife are that woo.

Anyone know who the "Dr. Dan" Santana employed is?

This is an interesting question and not one that people seem to have shown much interest in. I think it MIGHT be this guy below:
Since he goes by "Dr Dan" I would have expected to see web denials that he was not THAT Dr Dan by now. I find only silence.

He is located correctly in time, place, and opportunity. maybe someone can do more homework. Below interview is from 2001. If he's not the guy maybe he should speak up.


http://www.dailybruin.com/news/printable.asp?id=16406&date=9/27/2001

Dr. Dan, a member of the local Los Angeles band Betty Dylan, commented on how the Sept. 11 tragedy has changed the public focus.


More from the Betty Dylan website:


Betty Dylan are Dan and Vickie Dubelman, a singer/songwriter duo known to work with superb musicians both on the road and in the studio. They are also husband and wife, he a New Yorker, she from Bakersfield California, whose musical and personal world's collided in LA. Dan, known as "Dr. Dan", plays lead guitar, writes the lion's share of the music and lyrics, and performs vocals. Vickie plays rhythm guitar and performs vocals.
http://www.bettydylan.com/whois.html

"Dr. Dan" Dubelman (Co-lead vocals, lead guitar)

Dan grew up on a movie set. At 5 years old, Dan won a Golden Lion at the Cannes Film Festival for his role in the "Sharing" commercial for Cracker Jacks, which also featured Jack Gilford and became the longest running commercial until the "Mikey Life Cereal" commercial came along decades later.

Dan began playing music as a teenager and by the time he got to Cornell he was playing more than he was studying. His college band, Lay Quiet Awhile (LQA), was the most sought after local party band known for long rocking jams and Dr. DanÕs caustic lyric ad-libs.

Meanwhile, in Pulitzer-Prize-Winner Alison Lurie's class, Dan began to write "American Trash", a novella. This piece earned him a scholarship and fellowship to John's Hopkins fiction program under John Barth. After receiving his MA, Dan then spent a semester studying acting at Oxford where he concentrated on Shakespeare and Chekov.

With school finished, he moved to New York where he started an independent record label and toured the U.S. with his own band, Dr. Dan's Music Show. Highlights included gigs at New York CityÕs Lonestar, The Village Gate and Wetlands where Lisa Loeb opened for them. He moved to Austin, Texas, for a while to write and record. He returned to New York but could not make ends meet, so he joined the Rolling Stones' review, "Sticky Fingers", playing Keith Richards and touring the deep South. By the summer of that year, he'd had enough. He moved to L.A. and put together another version of Dr. Dan's Music Show called Dr. Dan and the Perscriptions. The Perscriptions went on to play around L.A. and spent the whole summer of '97 playing on Venice Beach. He met Vickie shortly thereafter and married her.

Dan's second love is tennis. At 12, Dan was hanging out on the courts with Bobby Riggs and Pancho Segoura and competing in international tennis tournaments. He remains an avid tennis player.




Dr. Dan can see the future. He sees lots of things on a daily basis and he's pretty good at interpreting dreams, too. Here's his predictions...

PREDICTION #1: I predict there will be secret languages. some may not even be verbal, some may be almost like sign language or some other step along the way to telepathic communication. language is so limited that we must find new ways to describe the ideas we need to describe. There is no such thing as lying because everything is apparent. Language is like a battlefield - sometimes the field opens and it is clear what is going on!


Gets my vote anyway...




As the youth of America turn to MTV searching for answers in a time of crisis, music may become a forum for political messages and social consciousness - from the Bruin News website linked above.

[Kopji]

That first link to the 2001 Bruin interview is a collective riot. It's worth a read even if you aren't interested in the rest of this.








Even in times of war, a lot of the youth of the country will turn to MTV.

[magicflute]

As always, aptitude in one field, does not protect you from being an idiot in anything else. Santana has often demonstrated by his statements and his behavior that his abilities only relate to music and even that is debatable also. He has always been into some form of woowooism. Outside of music he is not very smart. His wearing of a "Che Guevara" t-shirt at the Grammies demonstrates that well enough. That was as offensive to me as if he had worn one with "Bin Laden" face on it. His weak apology in which he plead ignorance angered even more of his peers, who knew that he did know better.
There is no problem with someone enjoying his music, but don't assume that his competency in that field extends to anything else and therefore give automatic validity to what he preaches.

[Dogdoctor]

Originally posted by Tricky
You're probably right about his last album, which is why I specified "big hit".
Not to be a nit picker but Shaman had some hits and won at least one Grammy award (and I really like it) and I am sure has hit multi platinum in sales. Regardless if you hear him talk about music his supernatural philosophy is readily apparent.

[magicflute]

edited because of accidental double post

[Tricky]

Originally posted by Dogdoctor
Not to be a nit picker but Shaman had some hits and won at least one Grammy award (and I really like it) and I am sure has hit multi platinum in sales. Regardless if you hear him talk about music his supernatural philosophy is readily apparent.
LOL. Dang! I really am out of it. I remember hearing a lot about Supernatural, but not Shaman. Probably my fault though. I try to keep up with the new music scene, but I really haven't followed closely. I'm afraid I have become what I always feared: a music fogie.

[DavoMan]

You guys are missing the other half of the picture. Almost all heavy metal (extreme metal, not the glam ****) has and is anti-christian.

Some of it is satanic. Half of the time its for theme pourposes but theyre not actually satanic.But the anti-christian influence is real and most metalheads have very real reasons for being p|ssed off with the values of christianity/christians/opression/weakness etc.

There's lots of different points of views, bands hate each other, etc, whatever, but the #1 thing that puts metal into the same catagory is being sick of putting up with $hit, and hitting back at these bastards with loud violent music that kicks them in the balls from start to finish. Thats metal.

Here is an article about Gorgoroth breaching polands laws 'protecting religion' with one of their trademark brutal concerts.
http://terror.org.pl/~teppah/gorgoroth/index.php

http://tepper.neostrada.pl/gorgoroth_08.jpg

[AK-Dave]

fowlsound, I think we can learn something from the "real" christians. You should hate the sin, not the sinner (the not-so-real christians hate the "sinners" - for example, gay people - not the fact that they are gay). Just because he has succumbed to wooist ideas does not mean he is a bad musician. Just enjoy his music for what it is: mostly great music. When his wooist ideals are brought to light, just shake your head sadly and silently hope he someday discovers a clue. Now, having given this advice, I am basically marking myself as a hypocrite, since I will not see another movie with any $cientology asshat as a main character. But then again, their acting ability does not equal Santana's musical ability.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
Don't let his personal beliefs put you off his music.
...
Sometimes I'll be listening to a song that is cleary about god, and someone will say the old "I thought you were an atheist" blah blah. I reply, who cares what the song is about, listen to that damn bassline!


I know what you mean... one of my favorite bands these days (Tool) has a couple of AMAZING songs that are full of newagey nonsense... A friend was surprised to hear me singing along, to which I replied "oh, it's all crap, but it's beautiful!" :)

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
You guys are missing the other half of the picture. Almost all heavy metal (extreme metal, not the glam ****) has and is anti-christian.

Heh... my favorite band went from being angry with religion (lead singer lost christian scientist mother who wouldn't get help, etc.) to finding jeeeesus and lead singer has a giant cross tattoo. How sad.

Oh, and check this out... the dude that looks like jesus used to be guitarist for Korn (metal/industrial, for those of you who unfortunately don't know them):

http://www.ruggedelegantliving.com/a/images/Brian.Head.Welch.Baptized.jpg

[DavoMan]

Yeah that idiot's name is Head. My friend came up with this excellent line to describe the situation:
"Korn gave head to Jesus" :D

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
Yeah that idiot's name is Head. My friend came up with this excellent line to describe the situation:
"Korn gave head to Jesus" :D

Heh, we came up with the exact same line... Also (for reasons I shan't go into here) he got "JESUS" tattooed across his hand... so from now on he is "Hand" to me :)

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

As a bit of a guitarist I've run across more than a few Santana interviews and pieces in the guitarist aimed magazines. He's completely hatstand, and I think from the ramblings in the last one I read that he believes he had a close encounter of the third kind, a trip in a UFO back in the 70s with a psychadelic alien that changed his music for ever. Personally I think the guys music sucks, I'd ask for a refund from the alien. In common with many of the more way-out muso types I think his problem is more pharmaceutical than theological.

[CFLarsen]

At 5 years old, Dan won a Golden Lion at the Cannes Film Festival for his role in the "Sharing" commercial for Cracker Jacks

The Cannes Film Festival has never awarded Golden Lions. Cannes awards "Palme d'Or". Berlin awards the Golden Bear. The Golden Lions are awarded by the Venice Film Festival. (http://www.imdb.com/Sections/Awards/Venice_Film_Festival/awards_summary)



I've asked the Venice Film Festival if they have ever given a Golden Lion to Dr. Dan. Let's see what happens...

[Chaosium]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
I know what you mean... one of my favorite bands these days (Tool) has a couple of AMAZING songs that are full of newagey nonsense... A friend was surprised to hear me singing along, to which I replied "oh, it's all crap, but it's beautiful!" :) Maynard's a keener guy than you're giving him credit for. They're aware that greek (or whatever you're referring to) mysticism is bunk, but like the atmosphere it gave the music. I mean, anyone who can write a song like Opiate and make fun of Scientologists in another isn't likely to be a new-age loony.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by Chaosium
Maynard's a keener guy than you're giving him credit for. They're aware that greek (or whatever you're referring to) mysticism is bunk, but like the atmosphere it gave the music. I mean, anyone who can write a song like Opiate and make fun of Scientologists in another isn't likely to be a new-age loony.

Oh, I think the guy's clearly pretty smart, I just don't care for all the drugs-as-way-to-enlightenment stuff. I love the music, but don't always agree with the message.

I think somehow the band would appreciate that I'm thinking for myself, even if I disagree with them, which is way cool.

Incidently, I was referring to Parabol/Parabola and Lateralis... both great songs that are heavy on the newagy stuff.

I was sold on Tool when I heard "Intolerance"... there's something appealing about a song that simultaneously condemns religion while taking some responsibility for our (collective) condoning of it...

[DavoMan]

Personally Im sick of tool & the endless overrating of it. I never liked the sound & have been emmensly put off by all the constant praising from newages & woos alike. Also, where I come from the general population of idiot youths are into tool with no real appreciation of its intelectual value.

Plus I just think its pussy & he needs a belting from a distortion pedal.

[Morris Cod]

I also must confess to being a singer/guitarist, and around here lately there have been 4 (count 'em) retirements from the other bands we compete with for work due to the fact that God does'nt want them to do this anymore...

One bloke started it, and then it became the "Thing to do"

None of 'em seem any happier now.

Ha ha, now we've got more work than we can handle!

We also had a guy around here that would'nt play past midnight on Saturday night becos of the Sabbath, so he would down tools just before 12pm...imagine how popular he was with punters in the pubs!

His son would play with him, dressed in heavy goth metal garb, creating gret mirth amongst the rest of us.

[DavoMan]

Lets show appreciation for the distinct difference between goths & heavy metalers. 99.99% of heavy metallers dress in normal clothes except for a metal tshirt if that, unless on stage etc.

All the clothes & fashion belongs to the goths.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
Personally Im sick of tool & the endless overrating of it. I never liked the sound & have been emmensly put off by all the constant praising from newages & woos alike. Also, where I come from the general population of idiot youths are into tool with no real appreciation of its intelectual value.

Plus I just think its pussy & he needs a belting from a distortion pedal.

Hmm, but how do you really feel about them?

Just cuz I can't resist tempting you... I still like Metallica (ducks) :)

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
Also, where I come from the general population of idiot youths are into tool with no real appreciation of its intelectual value.

Oh yeah... I'm 29 and only within the last year have gotten into Tool... and I'm not a makeup wearing goth, either.

Take that, stereotype! :)

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by BillHoyt
They don't understand where inspiration, creativity and newness comes from

Mine comes from an old tattered copy of the Vladivostok telephone directory.

[DavoMan]

Heheheh smartasses :P
I dont wanna come off as a know it all about music or anything like that cos I aint by any means.

Hmm, but how do you really feel about them?

Just cuz I can't resist tempting you... I still like Metallica (ducks) :)
Tool? I dont like it. Vocals are horribly monotone and it has some good riffs but yea the lyrical content never 'amazed' or 'inspired' me in any way. The few good lines I hear on tv seem ok some times.

Old metallica however is genius and will always be a part of my late childhood. However new metallica blows so hard you could fill a car tyre. Hey look, lars FINALLY learned how to blast-beat. There has been brutal death metal bands since long ago. Like kreator in 1985 and then theres ya classic metal eariler.


Oh yeah... I'm 29 and only within the last year have gotten into Tool... and I'm not a makeup wearing goth, either.

Take that, stereotype! :) 29 is still youth :P I didnt say all tools fans are idiots youths. Just most of the idiot youths I come across are tool fans. Fanboys actually. 'Tools the most heaviest thing in the world' or 'tools the best band ever' without ever lifting a finger to go to the cd store & ask for some metal thats 20 years old & could blast tool into 1000 pieces.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
29 is still youth :P I didnt say all tools fans are idiots youths. Just most of the idiot youths I come across are tool fans. Fanboys actually. 'Tools the most heaviest thing in the world' or 'tools the best band ever' without ever lifting a finger to go to the cd store & ask for some metal thats 20 years old & could blast tool into 1000 pieces.

Heh :) My nephew was going on about stuff like Linkin Park and calling it "heavy". I thrust a copy of the 1st Sabbath album and was like "Shut up and listen to this!"

'course, I did the same thing to my niece when she was 13... she was tryin' to rock (Def Leppard? wussy) so I bought her a buncha CDs: "This is Janice, this is Jimi... this is Led Zeppelin II, learn it, love it!"

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
Heh :) My nephew was going on about stuff like Linkin Park and calling it "heavy". I thrust a copy of the 1st Sabbath album and was like "Shut up and listen to this!"

'course, I did the same thing to my niece when she was 13... she was tryin' to rock (Def Leppard? wussy) so I bought her a buncha CDs: "This is Janice, this is Jimi... this is Led Zeppelin II, learn it, love it!" I love hearing these stories. Metal definately isn't a 'kids only music'. And nu-metal isnt 'music' full stop. :p When I got into metal at about 15, there was already lots of adults into metal etc.

Its surprising how some times a new metal head is born by showing a linkin park/numetal fan some of the older & non-crap stuff.

[luchog]

Well... I am a makeup-wearing Goth; and I personally don't care for Tool either. Actually, I hate most of what is called "Goth/Industrial/Ebm" these days. Buncha monotonous cookie-cutter garbage. I swear, I was at the club one night and listened to the same song for almost a half-hour (okay, technically it was 6 or 7 different songs, but I couldn't tell the difference). And don't get me started on that Nu-Metal crap.

The scene has been innudated in the last five or 6 years with "doom cookies" and "Mansonites" who drone on and on about how their favorite institutionalized-rebellion marketing packages, err... sorry... about how their favorite bands are are the greatest thing ever. I've found that forcing them to listen to some good old-school Goth/Industrial either opens up a whole world of good music for them, and they actually become worth talking to; or it gets them to shut up and piss off.

This doesn't work with Nu-Metal fans, since few of them have enough brain cells left to comprehend old-school Metal. Or any other music that requires any sort of intellectual investment.

Rush would probably make their heads explode.

[Chaosium]

Originally posted by luchog
This doesn't work with Nu-Metal fans, since few of them have enough brain cells left to comprehend old-school Metal. Or any other music that requires any sort of intellectual investment. Eh, nu-metal isn't really metal-based in practice. It's primarily arena rock with the occasional alt-rock and hiphop reference.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by Chaosium
Eh, nu-metal isn't really metal-based in practice. It's primarily arena rock with the occasional alt-rock and hiphop reference.

Much of the problem is that people get too attached to to labels and get blinded by them. For example, I like Korn, a band often called "nu-metal". Most of their stuff is pretty hard, but there are exceptions. Is "Alone I Break" a metal song? Nope, but it's a damned good song.

How I love playing the your-favorite-band-sucks game :)

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
Much of the problem is that people get too attached to to labels and get blinded by them. For example, I like Korn, a band often called "nu-metal". Most of their stuff is pretty hard, but there are exceptions. Is "Alone I Break" a metal song? Nope, but it's a damned good song.

How I love playing the your-favorite-band-sucks game :) It's numetal. Korn is numetal. But I agree with people getting attatched to definitions of music.

However I must stress that korn is numetal. It doesnt matter what spin ya put on it. Its the very prime example of nu metal.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
It's numetal. Korn is numetal. But I agree with people getting attatched to definitions of music.

However I must stress that korn is numetal. It doesnt matter what spin ya put on it. Its the very prime example of nu metal.

But do you think it's really nu metal? :)

And who cares about the label if the music is good?

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
But do you think it's really nu metal? :)

And who cares about the label if the music is good? Thats just it. I don't think the music is good. Its boring & stinks of formula. And yea I think its nu metal. But if you think its heavy, pick up a copy of 'Kreator - Pleasure to Kill'. Its from 1986.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
Thats just it. I don't think the music is good. Its boring & stinks of formula. And yea I think its nu metal. But if you think its heavy, pick up a copy of 'Kreator - Pleasure to Kill'. Its from 1986.

Careful now... if you start talking about an old band and lapse into "but only the first album... then they sold out" you'll have achieved full on rock-snob / fogie status :)

[Morris Cod]

Lets show appreciation for the distinct difference between goths & heavy metalers.



OOORRRIGGGHHTTT then, he must have been a Goth.

Still looked pretty silly with his old man up there, all part from ear to ear.

As I remember the kid had a wild looking BC Rich type black guitar, while dad had a jap strat-like copy with a drum machine built into where the tone controls normally are.

Sounded like a stick in a bucket of fish.

Until 11.59 that is.

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
Careful now... if you start talking about an old band and lapse into "but only the first album... then they sold out" you'll have achieved full on rock-snob / fogie status :) Metal is timeless. When I was 16 I was listening to music before I was born. I bet that one day I will see Iron Maiden play.

But yea the difference between nu metal kids is that they follow all the trends & stuff, and the rest get called bogans cos they dont care. I just dont want to speak for all metal fans & pretend that they are all alike.

But one exception I have noted is Slipknot. They play to the nu metal kiddies but they are alot better & brutal than they are considered. Their fans are more nu metal than Slipknot themselves are. People won't agree with me on that one.

In my opinion, the bottom line is that these bands that put metal & heavyness out into the open, like Cradle of Filth & Dimmu Borgir & Slipknot - these guys are promoting the rebellion against christianity and promoting standing up for yourself. It's what metal has always been about.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
But one exception I have noted is Slipknot.

Slipknot... indeed. If I played that "music" I'd hide my face too!

[John de Combe]

Originally posted by tkingdoll
Don't let his personal beliefs put you off his music.

If I did that I'd have to throw out at least half of my record collection, and almost all of my favourite artists/songs/songwriters were either woo or religious.

No, I certainly realise that. I'd also have to dispose of an awful lot of my record collection if I didn't listen to stuff by people who are afflicted by belief in some form woo or another. In fact, I'd probably be just left with Kevin Ayers.

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
Slipknot... indeed. If I played that "music" I'd hide my face too! Its just that for numetal, slipknot is actually tough

[luchog]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
But do you think it's really nu metal? :)

And who cares about the label if the music is good?

Well, that's the problem, innit? Nu-Metal is pretty much exclusively crap. I've yet to hear a single nu-metal band that wasn't cliche'd, cookie-cutter, low-talent, self-important hack work. (It seems to have picked up all the worst aspects of self-absorbed Metal, and self-aggrandizing Hip-Hop). There may be good music in the genre, but I haven't encountered it yet.

And I'm not the kind of person who sticks with particular genres. I like pretty much anything that's well done. That shows a good deal of talent and ability. Aside from Goth/Industrial and Metal, I'm also heavily into old Folk, Classic Rock, Power-Pop, Punk, Rap (old school), Showtunes, Country (again, old school), Reggae, New Wave, Classical, '80s Synth-Pop, Baroque, Romantic, Jazz (mostly be-bop, but other styles as well) and so on. I even like old Tin Pan Alley. While I like a lot of Scandanavian Death Metal, I also like '80s Glam Metal (Poison Rules!). I'm also a huge Beatles fan. Hell, I'll even admit to liking a couple of BeeGees tunes.

But there are genres that don't seem to have anything at all worth listening in them. "Gansta" Hip-Hop, Nu-Metal, and Young Country all appear to be completely devoid of any redeeming value whatsoever.

Oh, and to challenge a previous comment, Nu-Metal is essentially a fusion between Thrash Metal and Rap/Hip-Hop, with a significant Art-Rock/Glam influence. There were actually some good examples of the crossover that pre-date the genre, like Anthrax and the Beastie Boys (who were, technically, more Hardcore punk); but pretty much everthing subsequent to them has been garbage.

[Luke T.]

Carlos "Mr. Grammy" Santana wants the world to know that a Santa Claus-resembling angel named "Metatron" is responsible for his hit album "Supernatural."

Santana tells Rolling Stone that Metatron visited him with the following message: "You will be inside the radio frequency for the purpose of connecting the molecules with the light." The strange prediction inspired him to make his new album, get back on the radio and deliver his spiritual message to the masses.

But Metatron is more than just his career counselor. "Metatron is the architect of physical life," Santana explains. "Because of him, we can French-kiss, we can hug, we can get a hot dog, wiggle our toe."


http://archive.salon.com/people/col/reit/2000/02/28/npfri/

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by luchog
Well, that's the problem, innit? Nu-Metal is pretty much exclusively crap. I've yet to hear a single nu-metal band that wasn't cliche'd, cookie-cutter, low-talent, self-important hack work... (blatant inciminating, out of context edit) [/b]Poison Rules! [/B]

Alright buddy... hand over the Headbanger's License right now! We won't be having that kind of talk.

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
Alright buddy... hand over the Headbanger's License right now! We won't be having that kind of talk. Sorry but Luke T. is exactly right. Nu metal more or less is just crap. Its like a media-created genre to lure kids into cd stores to buy CDs or something.

Ya might even say its the pop music of metal. In fact, it is.

You'll find that most guys genuinely into metal are usually into other stuff aswell. Ie they like metal cos they like it, and not sticking to metal-only cos its 'cool' or something.

Buda da da... dada da....da DA! ....repeat (4x)

change to slow chorus with no more than 4 words, usually crying about having to take out rubbish or being grounded.

Buda da da... dada da....da DA! ....repeat (4x)

insert hip-hop beat

Buda da da... dada da....da DA! ....repeat (4x)

chorus

hip hop beat

Buda da da... dada da....da DA! ....repeat (4x)
end


Guess the nu-metal song. Okay whatever your answer is ya probably correct.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
Guess the nu-metal song. Okay whatever your answer is ya probably correct.

I'm sorry... all other arguments are void from someone who said "Poison Rules!".

Not just limited to music either... if I hear on the news "Today DavoMan found the cure for cancer", I'd call BS too... just can't trust your judgement anymore :)

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
I'm sorry... all other arguments are void from someone who said "Poison Rules!".

Not just limited to music either... if I hear on the news "Today DavoMan found the cure for cancer", I'd call BS too... just can't trust your judgement anymore :) Meh

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by DavoMan
Meh

You see where my true feelings lie... 'that guy believes in bigfoot?, eh we can teach him', 'Crop circles, probably hoaxes'. 'Hair Metal? That guy's a looney!'

Nothing personal, of course :)

[DavoMan]

A guy who specialises in growing apples might be useless at selecting the right oranges.

[luchog]

Originally posted by El_Spectre
I'm sorry... all other arguments are void from someone who said "Poison Rules!".

Not just limited to music either... if I hear on the news "Today DavoMan found the cure for cancer", I'd call BS too... just can't trust your judgement anymore :)

This from someone who thinks Kreator is an example of good metal?

Tell ya what, until you've thoroughly familiarized yourself with the following list of bands and musicians; I'll treat your opinion as that of any other religious fanatic who refuses to acknowledge the value of other worldviews.

Real Metal:
Black Sabbath
Iron Maiden
Metallica (anything before the Black Album)
Anthrax
The Gathering
Motorhead
Megadeth
Opeth
Led Zepplin
Sigh
My Dying Bride
Death Angel
Christian Death (with Rozz, not Valor)
Lacuna Coil
The Accused

Real Rap:
Run-D.M.C
Ice-T
Public Enemy
Beastie Boys
Grandmaster Flash
Sir Mix-A-Lot

Real Glam Rock/Glam Metal:
Alice Cooper
Slade
Quiet Riot
New York Dolls
T. Rex
Poison

What I've never been able to understand is the insistence by Nu-Metal (and Black/Death Metal) fanatics that Metal is all about being evil and angry and "*********** **** up". And that if you're not a violent narrow-minded vandal, you're not a "true metalhead". Metal isn't, nor was it ever, about that. It was never really about anything in particular; aside from being loud, rebellious, and different from what came before; pretty much like any other rock sub-genre.

Some of it was dark and introspective, some violent and destructive, some simply fun and escapist. Mostly it was about getting out what was inside you, in the loudest, most energetic way possible. Much like punk, which it shared a lot of characteristics with, and crossed over with more or less seamlessly.

One thing that has always annoyed me about Nu-Metal in particular, and a lot of more hardcore Metal sub-genres in general, is the almost complete lack of a sense of humour or anything resembling subtlety. It's all so aggro and hate-filled and self-centered and brutish. If there is any humour, it's juvenile and abusive, and applied with a sledgehammer. Plus, it has all the self-indulgent pretentiousness of early Heavy Metal, with none of the talent or exploratory nature. There's none of the dark, sardonic, ironic humour common to Hardcore, Thrash, Goth/Doom Metal, or the better Death Metal bands. That's why I like Glam Metal. It was lighter, more fun, more silly; but still with that power and energy.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by luchog
This from someone who thinks Kreator is an example of good metal?

Actually, I dunno Kreator

Originally posted by luchog
Tell ya what, until you've thoroughly familiarized yourself with the following list of bands and musicians; I'll treat your opinion as that of any other religious fanatic who refuses to acknowledge the value of other worldviews.

Now, now... we're just having a bit of fun. It's all a matter of taste...

Besides, I'm right :)

[DavoMan]

Originally posted by luchog
This from someone who thinks Kreator is an example of good metal?

Tell ya what, until you've thoroughly familiarized yourself with the following list of bands and musicians; I'll treat your opinion as that of any other religious fanatic who refuses to acknowledge the value of other worldviews.

Real Metal:
Black Sabbath
Iron Maiden
Metallica (anything before the Black Album)
Anthrax
The Gathering
Motorhead
Megadeth
Opeth
Led Zepplin
Sigh
My Dying Bride
Death Angel
Christian Death (with Rozz, not Valor)
Lacuna Coil
The Accused

Real Rap:
Run-D.M.C
Ice-T
Public Enemy
Beastie Boys
Grandmaster Flash
Sir Mix-A-Lot

Real Glam Rock/Glam Metal:
Alice Cooper
Slade
Quiet Riot
New York Dolls
T. Rex
Poison

What I've never been able to understand is the insistence by Nu-Metal (and Black/Death Metal) fanatics that Metal is all about being evil and angry and "*********** **** up". And that if you're not a violent narrow-minded vandal, you're not a "true metalhead". Metal isn't, nor was it ever, about that. It was never really about anything in particular; aside from being loud, rebellious, and different from what came before; pretty much like any other rock sub-genre.

Some of it was dark and introspective, some violent and destructive, some simply fun and escapist. Mostly it was about getting out what was inside you, in the loudest, most energetic way possible. Much like punk, which it shared a lot of characteristics with, and crossed over with more or less seamlessly.

One thing that has always annoyed me about Nu-Metal in particular, and a lot of more hardcore Metal sub-genres in general, is the almost complete lack of a sense of humour or anything resembling subtlety. It's all so aggro and hate-filled and self-centered and brutish. If there is any humour, it's juvenile and abusive, and applied with a sledgehammer. Plus, it has all the self-indulgent pretentiousness of early Heavy Metal, with none of the talent or exploratory nature. There's none of the dark, sardonic, ironic humour common to Hardcore, Thrash, Goth/Doom Metal, or the better Death Metal bands. That's why I like Glam Metal. It was lighter, more fun, more silly; but still with that power and energy. Shut your hole. You arent any authority on metal. And whats with the list of bands? This isnt an opportunity for you to show off how many bands you think are great.
Stop trying to stereotype me into some class of metalhead. I was simply pointing out that there has been brutal metal since long ago. You more less said I was wrong, and then restated what I said. Just shut your hole. Away with your fanboysm.

[Ducky]

metal, numetal, goth, alternative, emo, ska, WHATEVER

You're all playing the same chords. stop genre nitpicking. It's stupid.


P.s. congrats on a great derail. You had me with the Maynard and tool and then it went straight to crap with the "I'm cooler than you, and I know cool bands and that band isn't metal enough."

And listing bands to "school" someone? Please. May I point out you left out Fugazi, Kool Moe Dee, and Iggy Pop? Get over yourself.

[El_Spectre]

Originally posted by fowlsound
P.s. congrats on a great derail. You had me with the Maynard and tool and then it went straight to crap with the "I'm cooler than you, and I know cool bands and that band isn't metal enough."

And listing bands to "school" someone? Please. May I point out you left out Fugazi, Kool Moe Dee, and Iggy Pop? Get over yourself.

C'mon guys... we were just having a friendly chat... Don't make the mistake of confusing personal taste with objective truth and getting nasty.

[DavoMan]

I was attempting to have a decent discussion untill someone started name dropping & countering me with stupid & irrelevant taste-arguments.
Thats the down side of the metal scene. ******** who like to argue & argue & argue & argue about **** that doesnt matter.

But please dont put nu metal into the same class as other genres of metal. Its in a league of its own.