Help me please. I need a router.

[Checkmite]

I have broadband, via a cable modem. I've got a Windows 9x machine downstairs and and eMac upstairs, and I need one router to rule them all.

I would like it to be not-expensive.

I cannot seem to find what I am looking for - please help!

[Soapy Sam]

There are zigaboons of routers on the market. What is it you're having problems finding? Is there something unusual about cable modems?

If you're on Win 9x I take it you don't plan to go wifi?
Standard ethernet?
All you need is any router with at least two ports. Linksys or Zoom or many manufacturers have such models.
If you want really cheap, ask around local computer clubs; lots of folk going wifi have older ethernet routers sitting idle- you might get a bargain.

Frankly, if you had asked two months ago, you could have had my old Zoom 4x free, but it has since found another home.

[a_unique_person]

I bought a cheap DLink, and regret doing so. When the connection from the ISP is fine, it is fine. But when the connection not working well, it just locks up. I would pay a bit more for a linksys or netgear if I was buying another one.

[Checkmite]

So the answer is, any router will work with both machines despite the "Windows" listing in the Sytem Requirements on the outside of the box? There is a CompUSA near me with lots of routers, but the System Requirements keep hanging me up.

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
So the answer is, any router will work with both machines despite the "Windows" listing in the Sytem Requirements on the outside of the box? There is a CompUSA near me with lots of routers, but the System Requirements keep hanging me up.

Well, someone has to check me but the "windows" listing in the reqs relates only to the software included with the switch, not the switch itself. So if you're using an Apple as a server instead of a PC, you made need a different driver than the one that came with the switch. But even that shouldn't be a problem since you Apple probably already has a usable driver and even if not, one is almost certainly avail on the internet.

I bought a linksys for about $30 but wish now I had bought a programmable router.

[Soapy Sam]

JK- Is the idea to share a network connection between the two machines? If so, I don't see why this would be a problem with a good router. But- you will (I assume) have to run different network client software on each machine.

I know less than zero about Macs.

If the idea is to share files across the network- is this possible between these machines in the first place? I mean, can you copy a file from the Mac to a floppy, then from the floppy to the Win 9x machine and have it load and run? If not, I don't think it would work any better across a network.

So long as each machine recognises TCP/IP the internet bit ought to work though.

WARNING:- I could be totally wrong on this. Spend no money till you have a second opinion!

[Rob Lister]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
JK- Is the idea to share a network connection between the two machines? If so, I don't see why this would be a problem with a good router. But- you will (I assume) have to run different network client software on each machine.

I know less than zero about Macs.

If the idea is to share files across the network- is this possible between these machines in the first place? I mean, can you copy a file from the Mac to a floppy, then from the floppy to the Win 9x machine and have it load and run? If not, I don't think it would work any better across a network.

So long as each machine recognises TCP/IP the internet bit ought to work though.

WARNING:- I could be totally wrong on this. Spend no money till you have a second opinion!

Yea, and a third/forth opinon as well -- from someone that knows more than me.

I'm betting your primary goal is to share internet access. That was my goal. But even sharing files (depending on the file format) shouldn't be much of a problem. MP3 files, txt files, pdfs, etc, should work on either. I'm not sure about others like word docs or stuff.

[bPer]

Hi Joshua,

I don't know what products you were looking at that had Windows in their requirements, but when I went to the CompUSA website and selected 'Networking', the Cable/DSL Router that they highlighted was the Linksys BEFSR41 at $60. That is the router we use and it does not require Windows except for an optional feature. Configuration of the router can be done from any attached machine, using your standard Internet browser. Our network has both Macs and PCs on it, and we have had that router for about two years. We have no complaints with it. It would suit you well.

I have to ask - does your PC have an Ethernet network card in it? Typically, ISPs provide them when you order broadband, but if you had broadband delivered to your eMac, you wouldn't get a network card, since the eMac comes with Ethernet built-in. Hence the question. If the PC doesn't have a network card, you will have to buy one to be able to connect to the router. The card will have to include Win95 drivers.

And one more thing to think about. If you don't already have a point-to-point Ethernet network in place between your PC and Mac, you will have to string Ethernet cabling from one floor to the other. More cost, but still cheaper, simpler and faster that trying to set up and administer a wireless network. The CompUSA website lists lots of cabling - you're looking for what is called 'CAT-5' cable with RJ-11 connectors. If you just ask for Ethernet cable, the staff should know what to show you.

Hope this helps.

βPer

[kevin]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I bought a cheap DLink, and regret doing so. When the connection from the ISP is fine, it is fine. But when the connection not working well, it just locks up. I would pay a bit more for a linksys or netgear if I was buying another one.

I have 2 D-Links both work fine with my Windows XP, Linux and Mac minis. I would recommend going to their web site and making sure you have the latest firmware.

I've had Linksys in the past and had problems with VPN connections which is why I switched to D-Link.

[kevin]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I know less than zero about Macs.

If the idea is to share files across the network- is this possible between these machines in the first place? I mean, can you copy a file from the Mac to a floppy, then from the floppy to the Win 9x machine and have it load and run? If not, I don't think it would work any better across a network.


The eMac has no floppy so that isn't possible unless you buy a USB floppy for it :) But if you're going to do that then you might as well get a flash drive and use that.

The Mac can work with just about anything but mainly depends on which OS it has. OS X (all versions) works with Windows networking just fine. OS 9 and before need additional software to work with Windows networks.

If you decide to go the flash drive route, format the drive in MS-DOS format and it'll work with OS X and OS 9. OS X can also read-only NTFS and read/write FAT-32 in addition to the old FAT-16 format.

[kevin]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
So the answer is, any router will work with both machines despite the "Windows" listing in the Sytem Requirements on the outside of the box? There is a CompUSA near me with lots of routers, but the System Requirements keep hanging me up.

In general if it is a standard ethernet router that says Windows on the box it means Windows may be required to configure the device. Once configured they will work with any standard ethernet device - Windows, Linux, Mac, etc.... At the level the router works at there is no way to tell the source of the network packets.

The Linksys I had initially required Windows to update its firmware but that got fixed later on and you could upload a firmware through the web interface. My D-Links can both be configured via web browser from Mac or PC (or Linux, although I don't recommend using lynx to do it.) One of the D-Links has a Zone Alarm feature that works with Windows, but I don't use that feature anyway.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
So the answer is, any router will work with both machines despite the "Windows" listing in the Sytem Requirements on the outside of the box? There is a CompUSA near me with lots of routers, but the System Requirements keep hanging me up.

I have no idea why they would say you need Windows, since the interface to manage it is a web one. The only reason to use Windows is if you want to upgrade the Bios, I think. It just routes TCP traffic, which has nothing to do with just Windows.

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

Hooray, my field of speciality!

The router shouldn't care a damn if you're running Windows, MacOS, Unix, Linux, whatever since it'll be configured to run TCP-IP and be configured by either a platform independant web browser or through a telnet session. Since Macs can access the internet quite happily they are obviously configured to run TCP-IP and read HTML, so no problems on any of those accounts. If your aim is purely to share internet access then no problems.

Buy yourself one of the bigger name routers and you should be alright, names like Linksys, DLink, Netgear, even Belkin are ok for most things. I've configured quite a few in my time and while they all have their idiosynchracies they all do pretty much the same thing and have similar setup systems. They will allow you to share your connection, give out DHCP addresses and block ports and incoming attacks. No home should be without one.

If you get one then you might as well spend the extra couple of bucks and get a wireless one, wireless adaptors for PCs and Macs are pretty inexpensive and getting faster all the time. You'll generally get a speed of about 30 Mbps out of a wireless link between computers, even though they claim up to 54 Mbps you'll almost never see that speed. If you need more speed between your computers then go wired by running CAT5 ethernet cables with RJ-45 ends (RJ-11 is the smaller connector used on phones/modems). This will give a stated 100 Mbps but again dont expect that actual speed, and then only between your networked devices, not the devices to the internet. If you dont pass massive files between your computers then no need for wiring.

The only thing with going wireless is the security issue. It's usually an easy matter to put on WEP encryption, but I personally also make sure I only allow my PCs MAC addresses access and dont use DHCP so that no other PC can join my network even if they crack the WEP code. From my house I can pick up 3 other wireless networks, one of which is unsecured, so best ensure you put on security.

[Soapy Sam]

I emailed a friend who knows more'n I do- His comment:-

"Recent versions of Mac OS X support Windows file sharing. System Preferences > Sharing > Services > Windows Sharing. The Mac should show up in Network Neighborhood on the Windows PC like any other Windows share.

Newer Macs have auto-sensing Ethernet ports which automatically swap over their connections if they are connected directly to another machine. If there are only two machines on the network you don't need a hub - an ordinary Ethernet cable between the two will do. "


That said, I think the router will give you extra security.

[kevin]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
Hooray, my field of speciality!
The only thing with going wireless is the security issue. It's usually an easy matter to put on WEP encryption, but I personally also make sure I only allow my PCs MAC addresses access and dont use DHCP so that no other PC can join my network even if they crack the WEP code. From my house I can pick up 3 other wireless networks, one of which is unsecured, so best ensure you put on security.

If you get a Wirless G router (which are the ones that support the 54 Mbps rates) it should include WPA or WPA2 encryption. Use this instead of WEP. WEP is worthless encryption that can be broken in real-time by a laptop. WPA is much stronger and WPA2 is better than that.

[bPer]

Originally posted by kevin
I've had Linksys in the past and had problems with VPN connections which is why I switched to D-Link.
I VPN into work regularly, and have never had any connection problems. I use a Linksys BEFSR41 at firmware level 1.05.00. I guess this is a case of YMMV.

βPer

[bPer]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
The only thing with going wireless is the security issue. It's usually an easy matter to put on WEP encryption, but I personally also make sure I only allow my PCs MAC addresses access and dont use DHCP so that no other PC can join my network even if they crack the WEP code. From my house I can pick up 3 other wireless networks, one of which is unsecured, so best ensure you put on security.
Which is why I didn't recommend wireless to Joshua. Anybody who got hung up on the Windows requirement on the box is IMO looking for a simple, reliable, safe out-of-the-box solution. Wired networking these days does that. Wireless isn't there yet, IMHO. Just look at the list of network-specific buzzwords you used in that quote! I understood what you said, but I'm an IT pro like you.

Having said that, yes, this is good advise, and is what we have done since we installed an Apple Airport wireless router to our home network (in the days before the integrated DSL/Cable/wireless routers became available).

Also, it should probably be said that DHCP on a wired network is fine, since an intruder would have to physically plug into the network to gain access. On a wireless network, though, it is prudent to turn off DHCP and give each network connection a static IP address, just in case an intruder breaches your wireless security.

βPer

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

These days wireless isn't the pain to set up that it used to be. Most of our female office staff successfully set up theirs at home for their new VPN connections and they're in no way IT professionals. It does save the expense and mess of running CATV all over the shop too, something people generally dont want in their homes.

WEP is still about as bad as any other encryption, it's breakable given time but I dont know about real time. I've tried it and apart from needing a Unix box to run the necessary software correctly it can take anything from several days to weeks to crack stuff with readily available software since it requires a huge number of packets to crack the key. Hardly worth the effort for someones home network.

[bPer]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
These days wireless isn't the pain to set up that it used to be. Most of our female office staff successfully set up theirs at home for their new VPN connections and they're in no way IT professionals. It does save the expense and mess of running CATV all over the shop too, something people generally dont want in their homes.

WEP is still about as bad as any other encryption, it's breakable given time but I dont know about real time. I've tried it and apart from needing a Unix box to run the necessary software correctly it can take anything from several days to weeks to crack stuff with readily available software since it requires a huge number of packets to crack the key. Hardly worth the effort for someones home network.
Certainly not worth the effort when you can probably connect to another wireless network that is completely insecure, for sure! But if no open networks exist, it would be worth the effort, if you're up to no good. I've read of pedophiles that break into home networks to gain access to Internet pedophile sites anonymously. The poor homeowners are unaware of the breach until the police show up with a warrant for their computers and a bunch of embarrassing questions.

Tell me, are newer wireless routers being delivered now with security turned on by default? If so, could you name one you'd recommend as particularly easy for a non-techie to set up securely on his/her own?

βPer

[Soapy Sam]

How would one detect this sort of piggy-backing on a home wifi LAN? My setup uses a Linksys router modem. Win XP pro and home. Can't recall the model number and I'm not at home now, but a mid 2004 model. 811G

[kevin]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
WEP is still about as bad as any other encryption, it's breakable given time but I dont know about real time. I've tried it and apart from needing a Unix box to run the necessary software correctly it can take anything from several days to weeks to crack stuff with readily available software since it requires a huge number of packets to crack the key. Hardly worth the effort for someones home network. [/B]

WEP is worse than most other encryptions. Here's an article from Security Focus discussing breaking WEP in minutes or seconds:

http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1814

Here's the tools to do it:

http://wepcrack.sourceforge.net/

It isn't just the encryption that is bad in WEP, there are other factors too such as the fact that the keys are never changed. This means traffic can be recorded and broken later. WPA at least changes it's keys on a frequent basis to minimize this.

[kevin]

Originally posted by bPer
I've read of pedophiles that break into home networks to gain access to Internet pedophile sites anonymously. The poor homeowners are unaware of the breach until the police show up with a warrant for their computers and a bunch of embarrassing questions.


eh, i think this is less likely than the homeowner's computer being used as part of zombie network to distribute child porn (which happens way more frequently than the other scenario). Most people borrowing wireless connections are doing it a) they didn't even realize it was a private connection (it's pretty easy to accidently connect to the wrong wireless connection), b) they want to check their mail.

I have 2 wireless connections, one for myself using 802.11G and WPA2 encryption. the other is my old 802.11b hub that i leave open for anyone to use. that one is walled off from my other computers as well.

[kevin]

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
How would one detect this sort of piggy-backing on a home wifi LAN? My setup uses a Linksys router modem. Win XP pro and home. Can't recall the model number and I'm not at home now, but a mid 2004 model. 811G

There should be a list of connected computers available on one of the configuration pages, it'll show how many computers are connected and their mac address and IP address.

There should also be a logging page that lets your review connections made over time. This may need to be enabled before it will start logging.

You could also install something like ethereal or netstumbler to keep an eye on network traffic. ethereal can be pretty hard to understand.

http://www.netstumbler.com/

[kevin]

Originally posted by bPer
I VPN into work regularly, and have never had any connection problems. I use a Linksys BEFSR41 at firmware level 1.05.00. I guess this is a case of YMMV.

βPer

You're talking about VPN pass-thru, i never had problems with that on linksys or d-link. I was talking about VPN Endpoint. I used a linksys router as a VPN endpoint so I could VPN into my home network. Everytime the linksys received a VPN packet it would reboot itself. I switched to a D-Link VPN endpoint router and the problems went away.

VPN endpoint routers cost about $20 more than their non-VPN couterpart. Useful if you have a laptop and want to connect to computers behind the router.

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I dont know of any home routers I'd trust to set up well as a VPN end point, some of the 2-Wire ones I've got with BT Business broadband lines here in the UK have the necessary config pages, but for all the serious stuff we stick on smaller Cisco routers like 1700 series and above. Some of the later Cisco 800 series can manage but are best avoided. Cisco 700 series should be smashed to little pieces wherever you find them.

As for monitoring to see if you've been piggybacked then as has been mentioned you can go either for professional style monitoring stuff like Ethereal which will allow you to also capture and analyse packets, or you can just check and see on your routers DHCP or MAC filtering pages and see if a new MAC address or DHCP address has appeared. DHCP is the protocol that assigns an IP address to each device that joins a network, so if you only have 2 PCs and your router has assigned 3 addresses.......

As for WEP cracking, yes it can be done. Is it worth it? Not usually, people wanting to store stuff usually spend their time hunting for unsecured webserver space or server farms, not home PCs. Your home kit is more likely to be used as part of a zombie network under the control of a hacker, and that's more a function of trojan virus infection than anything else. What they can do however is get free internet access to use to send a mass of spam email or whatever else they dont want to send from their own, traceable account. When the ISP finally finds where all the traffic is and shuts you down, the hacker moves on to the next unsecured wireless access. I actually had a guy parking in our works carpark in a huge, brand-new Volvo and use our wireless network for a day or two. When I finally spotted this and cut him off he drove off at high speed before security could get to him. Be warned, it does happen.

The home user using a router is far better protected than one without, since most routers by default these days block any unusual ports the minute you turn them on. The fact you are also being NATed, the process of the router changing your address from an internal address to an external address for talking to the net, also makes you far less susceptible to the standard hacker exploits.

[kevin]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
I dont know of any home routers I'd trust to set up well as a VPN end point, some of the 2-Wire ones I've got with BT Business broadband lines here in the UK have the necessary config pages, but for all the serious stuff we stick on smaller Cisco routers like 1700 series and above. Some of the later Cisco 800 series can manage but are best avoided. Cisco 700 series should be smashed to little pieces wherever you find them.

Too expensive for home use. I'd use one of the low-end ones for a home or small office (less than 10 people needing VPN.) Mines been very reliable. This is what I've been using for a year or so now:
http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=59

[Checkmite]

Thank you for your advice, everyone. I've asked Apple and they assure me that as long as the "Windows only" routers are set up by a Windows machine first (just in case), it should be able to be used by a Mac, Linux, or any other machine that recognizes TCP/IP.

[SezMe]

Originally posted by Kenny 10 Bellys
These days wireless isn't the pain to set up that it used to be. Most of our female office staff successfully set up theirs at home for their new VPN connections and they're in no way IT professionals.
What is the importance of "female" in that sentence?

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

Because all of our female staff are admin and all our mail staff are IT techies who do this kind of nonsense all day. I'm not sexist in any way I am aware of, it's just the way it is here in this office. If it makes things better you should know that all the bosses are female too, which frankly is the way it should be.

[Soapy Sam]

You have something against the guys in the mail room?

[Xeriar]

Nearly every Linksys box I've purchased fries eventually. It's also not meant to run servers over.

Getting my Netgear router to host anything was a nightmare. Never touching one of those again.

Been very happy with my D.Link.

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

My own Linksys box got a bit flakey, so much so that I replaced it with something else in the end and passed it on to a less demanding friend for free. It was supremely easy to configure and set up, particularly the firewall settings and port forwarding, but I found it seemed to be locking up somewhere and stopping traffic occasionally, demanding a reboot. I've seen similar behaviour in Cisco 3524XL boxes, maybe it's a symptom of something Cisci based.

The current British Telecom router of choice is the 2-Wire brand that they give out with their Business Broadband packages. As befits a business style device it's a complete bitch to set up properly and not what you would call user friendly. Works well once set up though.

We use and recommend D-Link wireless routers for remote staff RASing in to the network, they are a nice compromise of reliability and ease of use. The ones I've been involved with didn't last all that long in constant use, but if it's not an industrial application then they should be fine.

Netgear stuff is only now permeating our workplace, but it certainly seems to be well built and up to the job, I fancy getting one of their wireless routers for my own network to try one out. I've installed professional size Netgear switches and equipment and it was all very nice, not as flexible as Cisco kit but nowhere near as expensive either.