Abbas Sticks to the Stage Plan for israel's Destruction while Praising Hamas

[Skeptic]

In a meeting in Gaza city, the Jerusalem Post reports, Abbas--on stage with Hamas leaders--praised the Palestinian "martyrs" (suicide bombers) and claimed that if the Palestinians want to live like "normal nations in a century" they should (currently) stop the "armed Jihad" and start the "greater Jihad". Translation: in the long-range plan for israel's destruction, it is currently more useful to use other Jihad methods than armed suicide bombings, such as building up Gaza as a military base. Not a word, of course, was said about peace or reconciliation. It was all about Jihad, victoey, the coming final destruction of the emeny, etc., etc., etc.

(Ah, the religion of peace. Don't you just love it? I'm sure that when Abbas is speaking of "Jihad", he means "internal moral struggle". Makes sense.)

This is, mind you, what is known as a Palestinian "moderate": let's destroy israel later, in stages, instead of right now, in war, since that so far hasn't worked out. The only difference between Hamas and Abbas is one of tactics or strategy, not goals. This can be seen by the difference between Hamas' charter and the Palestinian charter: both call for israel's destruction, only the Palestinian charter does it in cleaner, more polite language.

Not, of course, that one should expect more from Dr. Abbas--the "Dr." being based on his Ph.D. in "history", proving that the holocaust never happened and it was all part of a zionist trick to steal Palestine. But why is a holocaust-denying thug committed to israel's destruction considered a moderate?

P.S.

The selfsame Abbas had demanded, two weeks ago, that israel supply the PA with ammunition and weapons, or else he might be too weak to fight Hamas. Yes, I'm quite sure his desire to fight Hamas is genuine--that is why he is appearing with them in rallies. I suggest the israelies just buy the weapons, shoot themselves, and save the middleman.

[geni]

Originally posted by Skeptic
In a meeting in Gaza city, the Jerusalem Post reports, Abbas--on stage with Hamas leaders--praised the Palestinian "martyrs" (suicide bombers) and claimed that if the Palestinians want to live like "normal nations in a century" they should (currently) stop the "armed Jihad" and start the "greater Jihad". Translation: in the long-range plan for israel's destruction, it is currently more useful to use other Jihad methods than armed suicide bombings, such as building up Gaza as a military base.

Prove it


Not a word, of course, was said about peace or reconciliation. It was all about Jihad, victoey, the coming final destruction of the emeny, etc., etc., etc.


Source? You know a complete trranscirpt of the speach


(Ah, the religion of peace. Don't you just love it? I'm sure that when Abbas is speaking of "Jihad", he means "internal moral struggle". Makes sense.)


Jihad can mean many things. Not my problem if you can't undestand this.


This is, mind you, what is known as a Palestinian "moderate": let's destroy israel later, in stages, instead of right now, in war, since that so far hasn't worked out. The only difference between Hamas and Abbas is one of tactics or strategy, not goals. This can be seen by the difference between Hamas' charter and the Palestinian charter: both call for israel's destruction, only the Palestinian charter does it in cleaner, more polite language.


Evidence?


Not, of course, that one should expect more from Dr. Abbas--the "Dr." being based on his Ph.D. in "history", proving that the holocaust never happened and it was all part of a zionist trick to steal Palestine. But why is a holocaust-denying thug committed to israel's destruction considered a moderate?

Evidence?

[Atlas]

I think he's considered a moderate because Israel has been demanding an end to violence. Abbas is caught between a rock and a hard place. I think he is finding a middle path. Let's end the violence for the current moment.

Currently the dogs of war are unleashed but not very strong. Al Quaida has been steadily improving their tactics and seem to enjoy funding from Iran. Hamas might be able to improve it's fighting infrastructure and capability by accepting a lull in projected violence.

Israel might be seeing this as the best they can expect from a very weak Abbas. If they see a reduction in violence they can again ask the US and Europeans to lead peace talks. An end to violence is something Israel continues to demand.

It is strange though. The rhetoric could have cooled momentarily after the Gaza pullout. But no, the rhetoric continued unabated, and could even be considered an escalation. It suggests that there is no plan for self governance in Gaza. It's a basket case with only a hatred for Israel as a uniting force.

[Skeptic]

Abbas is caught between a rock and a hard place

Well, somehow, I don't see "let's destroy israel in stages and not right now" as being the inevitable result of being caught between a rock and a hard place, as something he surely doesn't really mean, in case there isn't the obvious case of outright denial, I-don't-want-to-know-about-it attitude from people like geni in the post above (for geni: go to www.jpost.com and search for it, should be in yesterday's news. As for the Palestinian and the Hamas charter, they're all over the place on the web, do a google search.)

Does this work out in other situations? Suppose that president Johnson, in the 1960s, had given a speech--with KKK leaders in attendance--saying that keeping segregaton is a great victory and that, in 100 years, for white people in America to live "like in a normal country", it is currently necessary to stop the "armed lynching" of black people, and instead white people must resort to the "greater lynching" by, for instance, building up weapons stocks.

Would you excuse this as being a "moderate" on race relations, someone with his back to the wall and has no choice but to pacify the KKK with such talk that he doesn't really mean? No, of course not. Especially not if it would also be found out that as a young man Johnson wrote a Ph.D. thesis titled "The Case for Slavery", and was the right hand man of the biggest lyncher of blacks in history, as Abbas was Arafat's?

In fact, everything about Abbas' background and actions make it rather obvious that he means precisely what he says. Why don't you listen?

[geni]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Abbas is caught between a rock and a hard place

Well, somehow, I don't see "let's destroy israel in stages and not right now" as being the inevitable result of being caught between a rock and a hard place, as something he surely doesn't really mean, in case there isn't the obvious case of outright denial, I-don't-want-to-know-about-it attitude from people like geni in the post above (for geni: go to www.jpost.com and search for it, should be in yesterday's news. As for the Palestinian and the Hamas charter, they're all over the place on the web, do a google search.)

I'm not going to do your reseach for you. After all that means you might be missrepresented. I want to know aht your sources are. wjht your evidence is.


Does this work out in other situations? Suppose that president Johnson, in the 1960s, had given a speech--with KKK leaders in attendance--saying that keeping segregaton is a great victory and that, in 100 years, for white people in America to live "like in a normal country", it is currently necessary to stop the "armed lynching" of black people, and instead white people must resort to the "greater lynching" by, for instance, building up weapons stocks.


Can you prove that this is a legit parralell?


Would you excuse this as being a "moderate" on race relations, someone with his back to the wall and has no choice but to pacify the KKK with such talk that he doesn't really mean? No, of course not. Especially not if it would also be found out that as a young man Johnson wrote a Ph.D. thesis titled "The Case for Slavery", and was the right hand man of the biggest lyncher of blacks in history, as Abbas was Arafat's?


What has this got to do with anything. back up your claims or withdraw them. Your choice.


In fact, everything about Abbas' background and actions make it rather obvious that he means precisely what he says. Why don't you listen?

So you case relys on trusting a politicain? you are yet uto provide evidence that he even says what you claim he does.

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Skeptic
for geni: go to www.jpost.com and search for it, should be in yesterday's news.
I did and I couldn't find it, please post a link as it is customary to do when refering to a source.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Skeptic
In a meeting in Gaza city, the Jerusalem Post reports, Abbas--on stage with Hamas leaders--praised the Palestinian "martyrs" (suicide bombers)

"Martyr" is not a synonym for "suicide bomber."


and claimed that if the Palestinians want to live like "normal nations in a century" they should (currently) stop the "armed Jihad" and start the "greater Jihad".


"Jihad" means struggle. Nothing more, nothing less. Ending the "armed jihad" means ending the armed struggle. Funny how you see that as a bad thing--most of the IDF cheerleaders on this board see the Palestinians laying down arms as a good thing.


Translation: in the long-range plan for israel's destruction, it is currently more useful to use other Jihad methods than armed suicide bombings, such as building up Gaza as a military base. Not a word, of course, was said about peace or reconciliation. It was all about Jihad, victoey, the coming final destruction of the emeny, etc., etc., etc.


This is called "translating" what you want to see.


(Ah, the religion of peace. Don't you just love it? I'm sure that when Abbas is speaking of "Jihad", he means "internal moral struggle". Makes sense.)


You're making paranthetical commentary on your own "translation." That's ridiculous.

[a_unique_person]

A few years ago, at a gathering with Palestinian journalists in the West Bank city of Ramallah, Mr Abbas dropped a bombshell. He was, he claimed, behind Issam Sartawi's dramatic speech to the Palestinian National Congress, in which Mr Sartawi became the first Palestinian politician ever to propose publicly that the Palestinians should recognise Israel, back in the 1970s when there was no peace process. Mr Abbas said he prompted Mr Sartawi, and that he was pushing Palestinian intellectuals to start a dialogue with the Israeli left.

According to journalists who were there at the time, Mr Abbas spoke with pride. But it was an episode that left a bad taste in some Palestinians' mouths: Mr Sartawi was killed for his speech by the Palestinian mercenary Abu Nidal. Mr Abbas at that time remained in the shadows, and safe.

To Israeli eyes, Mr Abbas's credentials are excellent. Not only is there his track record in the peace process, but there is also that carefully leaked attack on the use of violence in the current intifada. Israeli foreign ministry officials have been busy briefing journalists that not only is Mr Abbas a man they can do business with, but that they are under orders not to be too effusive about him, for fear that their support will alienate him on the Palestinian street.

The fact that Mr Abbas once wrote a book, The Other Side: The Secret Relationship between Nazism and the Zionist Movement, in which he claimed that the number of Jewish people killed in the Holocaust was not six million but fewer than one million, has been quietly brushed aside. References to the book have recently disappeared from an Israeli government website.

Mr Abbas's reported defence when asked about the book was telling. "When I wrote The Other Side, we were at war with Israel," he said. "Today I would not have made such remarks."

Mr Abbas's biggest problem may be that he has little support among Palestinians. An uncharismatic, greying figure who never turns up at political rallies or makes speeches in public, he is viewed with suspicion in the occupied territories. Many Palestinians are wary of Mr Abbas's good connections in Israel, and say they fear he is being set up as a dupe to sign up to a peace deal dictated by Israel and its ally, the US, in which they will get nothing.

"The new Palestinian cabinet is a security cabinet to oppress Palestinian people," said Abdel Sattar Qassem, professor of political science at al-Najah University, in Nablus.



http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=392

This is the only source that has this article. If anyone wants to deny the story because they see the site as biased, please do, however, it reads like a genuine article from the independent.

The point of view of the Palestinians, appears to be, they just don't trust the US and Israel, Abbas is after a genuine reconciliation, which he has to be to get a real peace, and he now retracts the thesis as being politically motivated.

After the 'there were no conditions on settlements' Oslo agreement, they may have a basis for that scepticism.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
This is the only source that has this article...

So did you know of the article previously, and then did a search for it?

[Skeptic]

This is the only source that has this article. If anyone wants to deny the story because they see the site as biased,

Whatever would possibly make us think that? I'm sure www.fromoccupiedpalestine.com is a perfectly reasonable web site without any bias. Also, for news about the real truth about women the media doesn't want you to know about, go to www.allbroadsarecastratingbitches.com.

You do realize that discovering that the only source that "knows" that Abbas "really" recognizes israel is www.fromoccupiedpalestine.com is the equivalent of admitting that he doesn't recognize it and is sticking to the stage plan for its destruction, don't you?

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Skeptic
...in the long-range plan for israel's destruction, it is currently more useful to use other Jihad methods than armed suicide bombings, such as building up Gaza as a military base. Not a word, of course, was said about peace or reconciliation.


I'll leave most of the ponts alone, as geni and Cleon have made congent comments for most of it, but I would comment on the above. (Italics in the above Skeptic quote are mine)


Lets do a wee bit of mathematics, OK.

Israel: Tanks--3,700
Artillery--1,948 (inclusive of Multiple Rocket Launch systems)
Aircraft--518
Helicopters--205 (at least 60 of which are armed attack)

Palestinians: Tanks: 0
Artillery: 0 (and no, mortars and do it yourself rockets don't count, we're talking actual military force now)
Aircraft: 0
Helicopters: 0

Israel Military spending: $8.7 Billion USD in 2002

Palestine: Entire GDP from Gaza+West Bank-Estimated $2.6B


Now, I will not argue about what Abbas meant or how he sees the next century playing out (I leave that field to Geni and Cleon)but to state that Gaze is to be "a military base" for the destruction of Israel can only lead to a Smilie that I don't believe I have ever used:

:dl:


You are quite capable of making congent arguments and defending same; why you need to make ridiculous ones has always baffled me.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Skeptic
In a meeting in Gaza city, the Jerusalem Post reports, Abbas--on stage with Hamas leaders--praised the Palestinian "martyrs" (suicide bombers) and claimed that if the Palestinians want to live like "normal nations in a century" they should (currently) stop the "armed Jihad" and start the "greater Jihad". Translation: in the long-range plan for israel's destruction, it is currently more useful to use other Jihad methods than armed suicide bombings, such as building up Gaza as a military base. Not a word, of course, was said about peace or reconciliation. It was all about Jihad, victoey, the coming final destruction of the emeny, etc., etc., etc.

(Ah, the religion of peace. Don't you just love it? I'm sure that when Abbas is speaking of "Jihad", he means "internal moral struggle". Makes sense.) Greater Jihad has been his cal since after his election. It is, in fact, code for the "internal moral struggle" you think is ludicrous.

From a Jan 11 article... (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16589) As he announced after his electoral victory this week: "The lesser jihad [holy war] is over and the greater jihad is ahead."

From here: (http://infomideast.com/wordpress/index.php?p=88) In Islam, the smaller jihad is the military jihad against the enemies of God, while the greater jihad (or struggle) is the internal jihad. By running and winning the elections on a platform of non-violence and against military acts, Abu Mazen has, in his own eyes, overcome the smaller jihad and has promoted himself to the much more difficult, greater, jihad. It is the difficult soul searching in which you have to struggle with yourself.

From here: (http://www.abc.se/~m9783/n/dgjh_e.html) 1. "Some troops came back from an expedition and went to see the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu `alayhi wa-Sallam. He said: "You have come for the best, from the smaller jihad (al-jihad al-asghar) to the greater jihad (al-jihad al-akbar)." Someone said, "What is the greater jihad?" He said: "The servant's struggle against his lust"(mujahadat al-`abdi hawah).

That said, I take for granted that duplicity is the hallmark of middle east politics. But one thing I'm pretty sure of is that Abbas wants to be a strong leader of the Palestinian people. For good or ill - he wants to be strong. Right now he's weak.

Greater Jihad is a terrific phrase for him. It has an elevated peaceful meaning inside Islam but it also has the double entendre that you've recognized Skeptic. I'm sure a lot of Palestinians hope it carrries the same dark meaning ou see.

The thing is he's been using the phrase since at least January. The Israeli leadership is giving him a pass on it. I think they realize that Arafat's legacy is an ungovernable Palestine. Abbas has the unenviable job of herding cats. He's got to parse his words carefully to have at least some appeal to all sides.

He may not bring a bright future to the Palestinians but he's not Arafat. That's one thing in his favor - ok, a small thing perhaps. But the other thing is - who would you have replace him? Arafat made sure that no men of stature or charisma were there to share the stage.

Israel seems to believe he not the evil guy he used to be. They watch him closely and are giving him a chance - they've certainly not denounced him as they did Arafat. They're the ones who have to live with him. I'm sure they see a lot more evil threats than abu Mazen.

[Hutch]

Atlas--nuicely stated. Concur.

[skepticism]

If it weren't for black people in America, we'd pay little attention to civil rights or constitutional rights. Whites dislike that blacks win lawsuits, but blacks give us the correction to social policies we'd otherwise never get.

Arabs are like that, in international affairs. without Arabs and Moslems, we wouldn't have the necessary corrective balance in world affairs.

We all owe a debt of gratitude to blacks and Arabs. They're at the bottom of the income level, in America and worldwide. They give us a correction to our ethics and soul.

The people on top, the rulers, the profiteers of land & transactions, the Whites and non Arabs, promote a world history that is more friendly to majority ethnic groups. Truth, however, is independent of the majority ethnic group or ruling government.

It's hard for some skeptics to realize, their goal isn't to support the official truth of majority ethnic groups & governments, it's to find truth independent of popularity & world respect.

[steverino]

We all owe a debt of gratitude to blacks and Arabs. They're at the bottom of the income level, in America and worldwide.

Which Arabs? I am sure "the black people" on Chicago's West Side would enjoy the economic conditions of those poor Kuwaitis "at the bottom of the income level."

[mr rosewater]

As those poor Arabs fill those oil tankers at what now $62.00 + a barrel

[Darth Rotor]

If it weren't for black people in America, we'd pay little attention to civil rights
Perhaps
or constitutional rights.
Nope, the constitutinoal rights game has been in play since it was signed.
Whites dislike that blacks win lawsuits, but blacks give us the correction to social policies we'd otherwise never get.
Not sure about the former, the latter seems to have a grain of truth to it. A rather broad statement in any case.
Arabs are like that, in international affairs. without Arabs and Moslems, we wouldn't have the necessary corrective balance in world affairs.
Without Arabs, we'd have Persians I guess. Without Muslims, we'd have a billion less people on this planet, the missing to include millions of Africans, about 60 million turks, and some 100 million Indonesians.
We all owe a debt of gratitude to blacks and Arabs. They're at the bottom of the income level, in America and worldwide.
When I look at the opulent palaces of the various emirs and princes in the Arab world, and the modern architectural wonders in their cities, I don't see how the Arabs, as you seem to suggest, are the "n____rs of the Mid East or of The World." (Ref to a John Lennon song title regarding women)

That would position would be the guest workers they import from south and southeast Asia.

In Qatar, Saudi, and UAE, for example, these "poor Arabs" import Filipinos, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, and other guest workers to do the jobs Arabs won't do. Many of those same Arabs are on the dole, others run small business or get along one way or another. This pattern is common in the Gulf States. Who one is related to influences the amount of dole, patronage, and sinecures available. Iraq, being a bit larger place, has just had its patronage network, mostly Sunni and tied to Saddam's network, disrupted. The establshment of a new one is being fought over.

I don't know the details of Egypts social relationships well enough to comment, nor am I up to date on the rest of North African power relationships. Do you consider them "Arabs?"

Sadly for the Pals, they aren't a gulf Arab state sitting on a boatload of oil or natural gas wealth. So, many of them aren't too well off, since they have either left, or have been run off from, the lands of bountious petro dollars.
They give us a correction to our ethics and soul.
I am sure the Chinese and Japanese people agree with you completely.
The people on top, the rulers, the profiteers of land & transactions, the Whites and non Arabs, promote a world history that is more friendly to majority ethnic groups
Right, to the Chinese. There are more of them than any other kind of person.
Truth, however, is independent of the majority ethnic group or ruling government.
How profound. I'll meditate on that for a moment.
*breaks wind*
I just matched your level of profundity.
*lights match*
It's hard for some skeptics to realize, their goal isn't to support the official truth of majority ethnic groups & governments, it's to find truth independent of popularity & world respect.
Who is this "they" you refer to? The Chinese?

DR

[Mycroft]

We all owe a debt of gratitude to blacks and Arabs. They're at the bottom of the income level, in America and worldwide. They give us a correction to our ethics and soul.

Arabs are at the bottom of the income level in America? That's news to me. All the Arabs I know (in America) tend to be very well educated with incomes to match.

[Skeptic]

We all owe a debt of gratitude to blacks and Arabs. They're at the bottom of the income level, in America and worldwide. They give us a correction to our ethics and soul.

Yes, the western world have been missing that ol' "butcher the Jews" religion for a while. About time the Arabs reminded us of it.

The people on top, the rulers, the profiteers of land & transactions, the Whites and non Arabs, promote a world history that is more friendly to majority ethnic groups.

Such as the claim that the holocaust actually happened--so pro-Jewish! Naturally, this is due to the Jews being, as is well known, an enormous ethnic majority everywhere.

Truth, however, is independent of the majority ethnic group or ruling government.

So why does no Arab country have freedom of the press?

[Skeptic]

How profound. I'll meditate on that for a moment.
*breaks wind*
I just matched your level of profundity.
*lights match*

*Causes plane to make emergency landing (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=70012&highlight=emergency+landing)*

[steverino]

When I look at the opulent palaces of the various emirs and princes in the Arab world, and the modern architectural wonders in their cities, I don't see how the Arabs, as you seem to suggest, are the "n____rs of the Mid East or of The World." (Ref to a John Lennon song title regarding women)
DR

Dang! Ya beat me again. I was gunna refer to that song in the Yoko thread. I think that song would be a good Andy Dick routine on stage.

[Art Vandelay]

If it weren't for black people in America, we'd pay little attention to civil rights or constitutional rights. Whites dislike that blacks win lawsuits, but blacks give us the correction to social policies we'd otherwise never get.So... racial divsions are good because they create opportunities to correct them?

Arabs are like that, in international affairs. without Arabs and Moslems, we wouldn't have the necessary corrective balance in world affairs.What needs correcting?

We all owe a debt of gratitude to blacks and Arabs. They're at the bottom of the income level, in America and worldwide. They give us a correction to our ethics and soul.On the contraryu, Arans have helped corrupt our souls.

[a_unique_person]

Abbas wants to call a new election, hoping to get rid of HAMAS from power. Looks like he isn't Hamas' poodle.

[webfusion]

Abbas wants to call a new election, hoping to get rid of HAMAS from power. Looks like he isn't Hamas' poodle.

Since there was nothing about Israel or the Palestinians on the current top page of this forum, I'll go ahead and bump this thread!


Bow Wow wow --
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/815372.html
Abbas meets Meshal in Damascus... seeks to finalize details of 'unity' gov't. and go ahead with having technocrats in positions of leadership.

[webfusion]

UPDATED:

The planned Saturday meeting between Abbas and Khaled Mashaal was canceled.
--ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press

[a_unique_person]

So he's not the poodle?

[webfusion]

I don't know who's a poodle, but Abbas is a 'marked man' with a huge
http://us.inmagine.com/168nwm/photodisc/pdos025/pdos025046.jpg
on his back.