Let's do teach creationism!

[gkat]

Perhaps the solution to the whole creationism debate is to make it a manditory part of the curriculum. Specifically, it should be part of a program to teach critical thinking skills to students. I'd be happy to put it and evolutionary theory to equal scrutiny.

[rjh01]

You would first need to teach the teachers in critical thinking. Even if it is only the types of arguments used and the strenghts and weakness of each type. Then no need to teach creationism. The students can work it out for themselves.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

They should discuss creationism and intelligent design. They should discuss how it's not supported by evidence,How it can't replace evolution,How it's religion wraped up into psuedo-science...It should be talked about in science classrooms. All psuedo-science should be discussed and should be explained how it is seperate from real science. Critical thinking needs to be taught to our students. Right now in america what we have is science teachers teaching the students dull facts about science without any real explanation of how it all goes together,Without explaining why these facts are facts....Basically like a religion. My knowledge of science all comes from personal studies,Not from any teachings in school. The schools simply teach super technical facts without ever even discussing the method of science. Just facts that will be remembered only long enough to be tested and than forgotten within a year or two.

This is not how science should be taught...And this is the reason over half of americas support teaching creationism opposed to evolution. Because our school system is a piece of crap. Our teachers are fools generally and our students are mindless robots. I fear the future of our society. Understanding of science and the scientific method should NEVER be contained to a small group of professionals. EVERYONE should understand science and grasp new scientific ideas and discoveries.

Democracy is bound to fail when the vast majority of the people don't even understand the underlying parts behind the ideas in our society and in politics. How can a society that relies on it's citizens possibly prosper when it's citizens are ignorant fools? How can a democracy possibly move foward when the vast majority of it's citizens don't even know anything about the main things that they are supposed to vote for? When they don't know anything about conservation of the environment,About abortion,About cloning,About endangered species,About Evolution vs creationism in politics,About critical thinking,About psuedo science,About things going on in other countries,About any of the things that they SHOULD know about to be able to pick the correct people to represent them.

[McFunley]

This presents more or less the same thing:

http://www.slate.com/id/2124952

[wastepanel]

The big problem in teaching the science and the "theory" is that some creationists agree with evolution. A creationist believes the universe was created by God. That is the only statement that can be made about all creationists. There are thousands of Christian theories of creationism, and thousands more for any other religion. Until we find out what happened to create the first atom, there will be religion.

[Georgieboy]

Hello everyone, my first post in here and i already love the place, it´s very nice to discuss all of these things with so many different people.

I think Dustin´s opinions are harsh, but truth is sometimes harsh, most of the time, you just cant rely in a community if its vast majority are people who just spend their time thinking about what new car to buy or mumbling the latest pop hit single all day long.

How do you expect a thinking democracy if the people conforming it are completely unaware of the same thing its being discussed?

on the other side you run into the risk of having some kind of dictatorship and telling people what to think.

the real problem is that most people just wont think, just feel and spit out feelings into words with some initial and apparent coherence. People need to discuss and turn the wheel of culture, oppose, conflict, get to synthesis. There is a serious issue here, the difference between teaching people what to think and teaching people how to clearly think.

and yes, im very, extremely sorry that this thing is happening on the schools over the USA which is usually a model for other countries in the world for a lot of structures and thinking, i can only hope it wont spread too much, because yes yes... it is a plague, a medieval and dangerous one.

Ignorance

[Mephisto]

and yes, im very, extremely sorry that this thing is happening on the schools over the USA which is usually a model for other countries in the world for a lot of structures and thinking, i can only hope it wont spread too much, because yes yes... it is a plague, a medieval and dangerous one.

Ignorance

Welcome Georgieboy,

We're a very happy, but dysfunctional family here and you'll fit right in.

I agree with you almost 100% regarding the tendency of Americans to put their priorities in the wrong places, but I think you're wrong in the above statement. American schoolchildren are playing catsup to European and Asian schools. While our country is considering teaching myths and fairy tales as truth, other countries are preparing students for engineering, chemistry, biology and other sciences. This will undoubtedly have tragic consequences in the future of our country. It is in the foreseeable future that the U.S. will become a nation of service-based workers catering to all the naturalized citizens who have moved here from India, China, and Germany to work in professional positions.

The motto of America's workers will soon be, "Would you like fries with that order?"

Edited to add: Please say hello to Pete, Dim and Little Alex!

[Mephisto]

American schoolchildren are playing catsup to European and Asian schools. While our country is considering teaching myths and fairy tales as truth, other countries are preparing students for engineering, chemistry, biology and other sciences.

I would like to clarify the above statement in the chance that I've offended anyone - first, I DON'T blame the teachers who I feel are the first to suffer the inadequacies of our public education system, I DO, however, blame the parents who use the school system as cheap child care, I blame the parents for their anti-intellectualism and for not teaching their children the difference between a spiritual belief and a scientific fact. I blame the parents for not teaching their children the basic courtesies civilized people offer each other daily and I blame the parents for their lack of involvement in the education of their children.

I also never wanted to insinuate that the arts are not important. They are, unfortunately, among the first things cut from suffering school budgets. I am an airbrush artist, my wife is a violinist of 22 years in the local symphony, my mother in law is a retired music professor and my son is learning trombone so we're all sympathetic to the concerns of artists in general.

I do blame the policy makers for shortchanging especially the teachers and the general public for being bedazzled by the glitter of sports stars, movie stars and music personalities instead of putting all that money into educating future generations. Garbage in, garbage out . . .

[Jeff Corey]

Edited to add: Please say hello to Pete, Dim and Little Alex!
Well, now, yobos and droogs,we'll all meet at the Korova Milk Bar for a horrorshow moloka with mesc.

[kurious_kathy]

Critical thinking needs to be taught to our students. Right now in america what we have is science teachers teaching the students dull facts about science without any real explanation of how it all goes together,Without explaining why these facts are facts....Basically like a religion. My knowledge of science all comes from personal studies,Not from any teachings in school. The schools simply teach super technical facts without ever even discussing the method of science. Just facts that will be remembered only long enough to be tested and than forgotten within a year or two.

Dustin I think you might be interested in this teacher.....Ken Ham go to his website at http://www.answersingenesis.org/
That is if you are really ready to answer why these facts are?

[Hawk one]

Answers in Genesis don't present facts. They present a long stream of lies and strawmen about evolution to push their religious agenda, proving once more that nobody is as prepared to lie as those proclaiming the loudest that they have the Truth. The only thing that's honest on that page is on their FAQ page, when they say that if scientific facts and the bible doesn't match, they'll choose the Bible. As if that was ever a scientifically accurate book.

Take a look at this list (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html), if you want to learn more on why AiG (and other sites) are so full of horrible lies, KK.

[Ed]

Dustin I think you might be interested in this teacher.....Ken Ham go to his website at http://www.answersingenesis.org/
That is if you are really ready to answer why these facts are?

I have a basic question. Is it acceptable for a Christian to lie to support a position that they think advances their faith? More broadly, should Christians lie and under what circumstances?

[Psiload]

Dustin I think you might be interested in this teacher.....Ken Ham go to his website at http://www.answersingenesis.org/
That is if you are really ready to answer why these facts are?

"No apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record,"

Ken Ham



'nuff said.

[cyborg]

I have a basic question. Is it acceptable for a Christian to lie to support a position that they think advances their faith? More broadly, should Christians lie and under what circumstances?

There is a Bible verse about Christians being able to lie in order to futher the religion somehwere but I can't find it right now.

Hence AIG is a perfect example of this. I hate that [rule-8]ing site.

[BillHoyt]

Dustin I think you might be interested in this teacher.....Ken Ham go to his website at http://www.answersingenesis.org/
That is if you are really ready to answer why these facts are?
This isn't a "teacher," Kathy, this is a bald-faced liar. These aren't facts, Kathy, these are unbelievably cherry-picked, twisted, contorted and distorted rantings of the deluded and religio-power-hungry beasts called creationists.

How about we get real, kathy? Would you like to discuss these "facts?"

BTW, Kathy, welcome to my radar screen! :rolleyes:

[Godmode]

I have no problems with creationism being taught in schools. In elective religion courses.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

You know how celebrities like news, whether it's good or bad? So does Creationism.

~~ Paul

[BillHoyt]

This isn't a "teacher," Kathy, this is a bald-faced liar. These aren't facts, Kathy, these are unbelievably cherry-picked, twisted, contorted and distorted rantings of the deluded and religio-power-hungry beasts called creationists.

How about we get real, kathy? Would you like to discuss these "facts?"

BTW, Kathy, welcome to my radar screen! :rolleyes:
Kathy,

Are you there? Do you plan to back up your assertions?

[Temporal Renegade]

I've got no problem teaching Creationism in public schools, as long as they also teach Evolution in Sunday school, as well.

After all, shouldn't more than one theory be present, so that the class can make up their own minds?

[kurious_kathy]

Answers in Genesis don't present facts. They present a long stream of lies and strawmen about evolution to push their religious agenda, proving once more that nobody is as prepared to lie as those proclaiming the loudest that they have the Truth. The only thing that's honest on that page is on their FAQ page, when they say that if scientific facts and the bible doesn't match, they'll choose the Bible. As if that was ever a scientifically accurate book.

Take a look at this list (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html), if you want to learn more on why AiG (and other sites) are so full of horrible lies, KK.I don't agree with you. Sorry I believe these guys have it right and evolutionists are just not open to it! Did you look at this explantion..http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp

[kurious_kathy]

This isn't a "teacher," Kathy, this is a bald-faced liar. These aren't facts, Kathy, these are unbelievably cherry-picked, twisted, contorted and distorted rantings of the deluded and religio-power-hungry beasts called creationists.

How about we get real, kathy? Would you like to discuss these "facts?"

BTW, Kathy, welcome to my radar screen! :rolleyes:Even before coming to faith in Christ...I never bought into the theory of evolution. And Ken Ham is a scientist that knows his stuff. I think God is using his ministry to open many peoples eyes these days. It really is up to each individual to choose what they want to believe. I believe in creation!
And there are so many more new evidences that proove scripture is correct.
Here's another husband and wife team that have some great archeological finds. It's amazing to me...http://www.dianawaring.com/ancient-history/index.html Her newer study on Ancient Civilizations and the Bible is really interesting.

[logical muse]

Even before coming to faith in Christ...I never bought into the theory of evolution. And Ken Ham is a scientist that knows his stuff. I think God is using his ministry to open many peoples eyes these days. It really is up to each individual to choose what they want to believe. I believe in creation!
And there are so many more new evidences that proove scripture is correct.
Here's another husband and wife team that have some great archeological finds. It's amazing to me...http://www.dianawaring.com/ancient-history/index.html Her newer study on Ancient Civilizations and the Bible is really interesting.
(my bolding)

And there it is. Sure, believe what you want to believe, but understand that that's all it is: Your choice to stubbornly cling to a belief that cannot be and is not supported by any evidence.

You'll excuse us for not joining you.

[Antiquehunter]

[QUOTE=kurious_kathy;1347838]It really is up to each individual to choose what they want to believe. I believe in creation!
QUOTE]

Welcome back, Kathy - it was getting boring here without you coming in to type in mindless drivel to spark conversation.

If you truly believe that it is up to an individual to choose what they want to believe, then why do people of your faith feel it necessary to attempt to change people's minds through evangelism? Likewise, why do you feel it necessary to use a nation's educational system to spread fallacy to those most vulnerable - children?

If your argument is that children need to be exposed to a variety of different theories and allow them to make up their minds, then don't forget the words of our holy prophet Bobby, and you better make sure FSM gets his airtime in addition to your god, countless creationist myths of a variety of tribal peoples and the facts.

An educational system should be designed to stimulate learning. Sunday school classes and parenting should be responsible for the indoctrination of people into religious beliefs (or preferably, non-belief).

Yarr...

[Ed]

One can believe what one wishes to. However, when one attempts to foster ignorance in my child there is a significant problem.

It is amazing that some people actually want to embrace ignorance as if it is good somehow.

Can anyone explain where we reach a point where something is declared "designed"? Do we ask the Pope?

[BillHoyt]

Can anyone explain where we reach a point where something is declared "designed"? Do we ask the Pope?
Ever see the man/woman test or the butt/elbow test where your ability to discern one from the other is tested? I wonder if such an internet test would be helpful in demonstrating a point about this?

[BillHoyt]

And Ken Ham is a scientist that knows his stuff.
Really? What is his degree in? If he knows his stuff, why does nearly every biologist on the planet completely and utterly disagree?
It really is up to each individual to choose what they want to believe. I believe in creation!
That is not how science works. You are free to choose what you believe, but at JREF your claims will be challenged. You must provide us foundation for your assertions.
And there are so many more new evidences that proove scripture is correct. Here's another husband and wife team that have some great archeological finds. It's amazing to me...http://www.dianawaring.com/ancient-history/index.html Her newer study on Ancient Civilizations and the Bible is really interesting.
The topic is creationism, kathy, ancient civilizations and scriptural references to same are a red herring.

[Ed]

Ever see the man/woman test or the butt/elbow test where your ability to discern one from the other is tested? I wonder if such an internet test would be helpful in demonstrating a point about this?

Well, it seems to me that the standard is that a person with some, undefined, credentials simply declares themselves stumped.

While I have a reasonably good understanding of Scientific Method, I must admit that I have a hard time speculating about what the ID Method is.

Beyond that, I have to wonder what the implications of this are. Is it that once something is declared "Designed" further inquery is blasphamous? If that isn't the case, then why even have ID? It seems to me that it a systematically defined paradigm for declaring intellectual dead ends.

I also raised the problem of medicine in this regard. If a practitioner is stumped is one doomed to suffer?

You see, the principle is not "can we explain it" but rather "intellectual difficulty=God".

BTW, you were going to look at my post in the thread on successful homeopathy trials in the Science section.

[Psiload]

Even before coming to faith in Christ...I never bought into the theory of evolution. And Ken Ham is a scientist that knows his stuff. I think God is using his ministry to open many peoples eyes these days. It really is up to each individual to choose what they want to believe. I believe in creation!
And there are so many more new evidences that proove scripture is correct.
Here's another husband and wife team that have some great archeological finds. It's amazing to me...http://www.dianawaring.com/ancient-history/index.html Her newer study on Ancient Civilizations and the Bible is really interesting. Ken Ham is not a scientist. No scientist worthy of the title would ever make such a ridiculous statement as this:

"No apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record,"

Ken Ham

The man openly rejects any and all evidence which contradicts his preconceived notions. This is not science. This is the antithesis of sciene. Ken Ham conducts his "research" backwards, he begins with his answer and then he goes looking for questions which support his a priori beliefs while ignoring any evidence which doesn't support his foregone conclusions.

Ken Ham is a preacher, not a teacher.

[Ashles]

It really is up to each individual to choose what they want to believe.
Absolutely. A person can believe dogs have 8 legs if they want. It is their right to believe whatever they wish.

They would still be wrong though.

And teaching others their belief would be to give other people incorrect information. Which isn't really the purpose of school now is it?

[Ed]

Belief NEQ Truth

[Psiload]

It really is up to each individual to choose what they want to believe.
And there are so many more new evidences that proove scripture is correct.
Here's another husband and wife team that have some great archeological finds. It's amazing to me...http://www.dianawaring.com/ancient-history/index.html Her newer study on Ancient Civilizations and the Bible is really interesting.

The link you provided is a perfect example of people who Do Not get the luxury of deciding what they want to believe.

That website provides pseudohistorical, and pseudoarchaeological curriculum for Christian homeschooling. These children aren't given "the facts" and left to form their beliefs as they wish. These children are sequestered and hand-fed the narrow-minded dogma of Christian fundamentalism.

The fallacy and disingenuousness of your Christian fundamentalist brand of "free will" is stomach-churningly obvious.

Barf.

[Kaydens]

Evolution versus Creationism is one of my all time favourite bugbears. The duplicitous phoney arguments for Creationism wind me up so much that I'm always ready to jump right in. Unfortunately some people just do not understand the point that Creationism, whether true or not, is not science.

I have to say that I found the best analogy for this problem in the words of Dave Gorman, from his googlewhack adventure. Referring to trying to teach Dr Duane T Gish (yes that Dr Gish) how to googlewhack, he said the following (or near as dammit): "Imagine phoning your grandmother and trying to teach her, over the phone, how to program a video player. Only you know she doesn't have a video player, but she does have a cake."

For me that just sums up the difficulty of getting concepts like the unscientific nature of ID/Creationism or the actual explanation for some of their evolutionary "puzzles" through to these people.

[wastepanel]

The big problem in teaching the science and the "theory" is that some creationists agree with evolution. A creationist believes the universe was created by God. That is the only statement that can be made about all creationists. There are thousands of Christian theories of creationism, and thousands more for any other religion. Until we find out what happened to create the first atom, there will be religion.

I would like to just reiterate my point from before. There are too many creationism theories to teach. If it were taught, what theory would be taught? The one agreeing with science, the one based on Genesis, or the Spaghetti Monster theory?

Kathy has every right to believe God exists and created everything. However, evidence should also be taken into account as it becomes available. I believe in God, but I also believe in science.