US experts resign over Iraq looting

[Cleopatra]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2958009.stm



Three White House cultural advisers have resigned in protest at the failure of US forces to prevent the looting of Iraq's national museum - home to artefacts dating back 10,000 years.

"It didn't have to happen", Martin Sullivan - who chaired the President's Advisory Committee on Cultural Property for eight years - told Reuters news agency.

"In a pre-emptive war that's the kind of thing you should have planned for," he said.

In his letter of resignation, Mr Sullivan - who also heads a historic commission in Maryland - called the looting a "tragedy" and said many other Americans shared his feelings.

[corplinx]

Did these "cultural" advisors foresee the looting of the museum and warn us by chance? If not, maybe their resignations are a good thing.

[Cleopatra]

Yes they did. Last night I saw in CNN an American professor of Chicago University, explaining that they have warned the Administration about the danger.

I will come back with a url.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by corplinx
Did these "cultural" advisors foresee the looting of the museum and warn us by chance? If not, maybe their resignations are a good thing.

They warned of it well in advance. The Oil Ministry was well protected but not the Museum or Hospitals.

[corplinx]

I'm just shocked we didn't accidentally bomb it. :)

Seriously though, their resignations won't change the fact that it happened. I don't think anyone (including the administration) is happy with the looting of the relics.

[Cleopatra]

:)

Of course not corplinx. None is happy about the situation and as I told you by day 1 Interpol will do its best. If there is will there is always a way ...


http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/04/17/sprj.nilaw.artifacts/index.html


McGuire Gibson, a professor at the University of Chicago, said that from January onward he had warned the Pentagon that looting was a real possibility and had urged special measures to prevent it.

"I was dreading it, and when I saw it, you just are totally devastated. Then I got very angry about the whole thing," said Gibson. "It should not have happened. It need not have happened."

[egslim]

Though the looting of a museum is sad, it won't cost any lives, hurt the economic rebuilding of Iraq, or cause political unrest in the Middle-East.
It is not hard to understand why protecting the museum wasn't high on the list of priorities.

[Cleopatra]

Personally I have difficulties in understanding the contrary...
but it is just George W. not Alexander the Great...not even Julius Caesar...

... and some people wonder what makes a man part of the History...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by egslim
Though the looting of a museum is sad, it won't cost any lives, hurt the economic rebuilding of Iraq, or cause political unrest in the Middle-East.
It is not hard to understand why protecting the museum wasn't high on the list of priorities.

You only have to know about the destruction of the library at Alexandria to know that we, as a planet, deserve better. Long after we are all dead, the destruction of the museum will be remembered.




The Legend of the Library
"And concerning the number of books, the establishment of libraries, and the collection in the Hall of the the Muses, why need I even speak, since they are all in men's memories?"
-- Athenaeus [1]
The library of Alexandria is a legend. Not a myth, but a legend. The destruction of the library of the ancient world has been retold many times and attributed to just as many different factions and rulers, not for the purpose of chronicling that ediface of education, but as political slander. Much ink has been spilled, ancient and modern, over the 40,000 volumes housed in grain depots near the harbor, which were supposedly incinerated when Julius Caesar torched the fleet of Cleopatra's brother and rival monarch. So says Livy, apparently, in one of his lost books, which Seneca quotes.[2] The figure of Hypatia, a fifth-century scholar and mathematician of Alexandria, being dragged from her chariot from an angry Pagan-hating mob of monks who flayed her alive then burned her upon the remnants of the old Library, has found her way into legend as well, thanks to a few contemporary sources which survived.[3] Yet while we know of many rumors of the destruction of "The Library" (in fact, there were at least three different libraries coexisting in the city), and know of whole schools of Alexandrian scholars and scholarship, there is scant data about the whereabouts, layout, holdings, organization, administration, and physical structure of the place.

[Cleopatra]

Ouch!!!!!! What painful memories came to my mind!!!! My precious Library!!!!!

Did you know that even Caesar himself, when he wanted to flirt...moi... brought books for the Library as gifts?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


You only have to know about the destruction of the library at Alexandria to know that we, as a planet, deserve better. Long after we are all dead, the destruction of the museum will be remembered.

Yep! That's why we are all a bunch of morally corrupt barbarians... All those missing books.. I'm sure one of those lost documents held the secret of brotherly love, world peace and interstellar travel.

I can't understand how all those marvelous treasures, in the hands of the Iraquis, did not enable them to lead the world, in social, industrial and ecnomic accomplisments..
----------------------------------------------------------------
Remembered? By whom?

Certainly not the average college freshman of today, who cannot find Iraq on a globe.

[Supercharts]

There is not one 'art object' or book that is worth the risk of a US Marine's life.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Supercharts
There is not one 'art object' or book that is worth the risk of a US Marine's life.

Thanks for pointing that out...:)

P.S. If anyone cares to look into the facts, it appears that some ( possibly a great deal, particulary the more valuble stuff ) was stolen before the coalition ever reached the city.

[renata]

It looks like most valuable objects were stolen by expert thieves who bribed museum workers for access.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47721-2003Apr17.html

Well-organized professional thieves stole most of the priceless artifacts looted from Baghdad's National Museum of Antiquities last week, and they may have had inside help from low-level museum employees, the head of UNESCO said today.

Thousands of objects were lost at the museum, both to the sophisticated burglars and to mob looting, Koichiro Matsuura, director general of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, said in an interview.

"Most of it was well-planned looting by professionals," he said. "They stole these cultural goods to make profits."

Museum officials in Baghdad told UNESCO that one group of thieves had keys to an underground vault where the most valuable artifacts were stored. The thefts were probably the work of international gangs who hired Iraqis for the job, and who have been active in recent years doing illegal excavations at Iraqi archaeological digs, according to archaeological experts working with UNESCO.

Matsuura said top museum officials tried to protect the institution, but the thieves may have succeeded in paying off guards or other low-ranking personnel. He said he doesn't blame the U.S. military, even though UNESCO had urged the U.S. government before the war to safeguard it and other cultural sites.

"If I were to blame somebody, it would be those armed bandits who looted their own cultural treasury," Matsuura said. The museum was assaulted during "a power vacuum" following the collapse of Saddam Hussein's government, and "anything could happen in such confusion and turmoil," he said.

Artifacts lost at the museum include vases, statues, gold jewelry and clay tablets that are the earliest examples of writing. The University of Chicago's Oriental Institute has already listed between 2,000 and 3,000 lost objects in a database, according to institute professor McGuire Gibson, who is one of the specialists advising UNESCO.

"The most important, best material" was taken by professionals who "knew what they were doing," Gibson said. "Then mobs came in and just marauded."

Gibson said the thieves broke heads off some statues, apparently to make it easier to carry them away. He was more critical of the U.S. military than the UNESCO chief. Noting that U.S. troops protected the oil ministry and prime minister's office, Gibson said, "other things were given a higher priority" than cultural sites. He said any further destruction would be "completely inexcusable."

Some of the stolen artifacts are so well known that no collector would dare let it be known that he or she had them. One is the alabaster Uruk Vase, with pictures of grain, sheep, goats and priests dating from about 3500 B.C. It is pictured in many introductory art history books. It's not clear whether the Uruk Mask, a priceless alabaster face of a goddess from the same era, was stolen. A statue of a seated king from about 2000 B.C. was another major loss.

Some of Iraq's most valuable artifacts were placed in a vault in the national bank after the 1991 Persian Gulf War. It isn't yet known if that vault is secure, or which items were placed there.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Supercharts
There is not one 'art object' or book that is worth the risk of a US Marine's life.


Hmmm I didn't know that objects of Art and Books carried guns that could use them and risk the lives of USA Marines...Interesting approach....

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



Hmmm I didn't know that objects of Art and Books carried guns that could use them and risk the lives of USA Marines...Interesting approach.... You're kidding?

[Cleopatra]

What do you think? Am I?

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
What do you think? Am I?

I'll have to peruse some more of your posts before forming a final opinion, but my initial impression is that you are not, thus my rhetorical " You're kidding? "


Perhaps you have some treasures in mind, that would be worth dying (you personally, or someone close to you) for. But it is a bit presumptious to assign that task to someone else.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

You would think that these three worthies would at least await the results of the FBI investigation. At this point we don't even know if the museum was actually looted. We don't know if whatever was there wasn't stolen BEFORE the war started. Shame on them for leaping to conclusions. We are far better off without them.

Yesterday our forces accidentally came across storage buildings holding tens of millions of dollars in US currency, plus a great deal of artwork and museum quality objects. It is entirely possible that this is the beginning of the solution to what happened to the museum.

One thing for sure, if these three decide that in retrospect they want to withdraw their resignations, I hope that request is refused.

[Cleopatra]

Hmmmm Let me see Diogenes...

I would be able and willing to die to protect the original copy of The Federalist Papers...

In my opinion, life doesn't worth if you don't believe, deep in your heart that in this world there are more important things that your "small world" as Goethe would put it...

The existence of those things make our lives worth living.

[Clancie]

Oh, please. Its a proven fact that the Museum was looted after the U.S. came into Baghdad and that we did nothing at all to protect it even with Marines a block away. (And, only days later, we likewise did nothing to protect the precious documents and books in the National Library from looting and burning).

If we had secured the National Museum at the time we secured the Oil Ministry, at least we'd know now what might have been taken ahead of time, if anything.

On the other hand, I feel more optimistic about the things that were taken as an inside job. Maybe people who planned in advance what was most valuable to steal would be more careful in storing them. If so, some of these things, hopefully, may not be lost forever.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Hmmmm Let me see Diogenes...

I would be able and willing to die to protect the original copy of The Federalist Papers...

Good for you...
And you have the right to impose that commitment on someone else?
A Marine perhaps? Who is by the way, charged with and should be commited to dying for the ideals The Federalist Papers embody, which should exist in the absense of the icon. If not, it doesn't say much for those ideals in the first place.

In my opinion, life doesn't worth if you don't believe, deep in your heart that in this world there are more important things that your "small world" as Goethe would put it...

The existence of those things make our lives worth living.

You're entitled to your opinion.. But I can't think of any 'thing' that I would consider dying for, much less suggest that someone else should do it..
Here's one of my favorites..

"It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others."
John Andrew Holmes

[renata]

Originally posted by Clancy
Oh, please. Its a proven fact that the Museum was looted after the U.S. came into Baghdad and that we did nothing at all to protect it even with Marines a block away. (And, only days later, we likewise did nothing to protect the precious documents and books in the National Library from looting and burning).



Facts are slipperry things. You think the museum was looted after troops got to the city. However, there are reports that Iraqi state accounts were drained of 5-40 billion dollars in the days before Baghdad fell. http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,937608,00.html, posted on this thread http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17767

Furthermore, according to the link I posted in my prior post, thieves had keys to underground vaults. How did they get them? I do not think it is unreasonable to think some items in the vaults were taken by fleeing Iraqi functionaries, just like they took billions of dollars of state money. The only fact is, we do not know all about this. It may take months or even years to figure out what was behind this. And, as I mentioned in another thread, there are open questions as what US military could have done, considering the forces they had available in Baghdad at the time.

[Cleopatra]

But I can't think of any 'thing' that I would consider dying for

Then Diogenes, you are right for not serving the Army.

I had the honour to wear my country's Uniform and the system of moral values I believe in, is quite different than yours.

But in this life, some people wiser than us have set up a corpus ( body) of rules for wartime...

According to these rules, those who wore the Uniform of their country and went to seize another country, have to die-if it is necessary- to protect it ( the other country).

Simple as that!

Edited to add. Even Collin Powell agrees that they messed it up...

Edited to add 2. Diogenes... I think that the original Diogenes would dissagree with you :)

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Cleopatra


Then Diogenes, you are right for not serving the Army.

I had the honour to wear my country's Uniform and the system of moral values I believe in, is quite different than yours.

But in this life, some people wiser than us have set up a corpus ( body) of rules for wartime...

According to these rules, those who wore the Uniform of their country and went to seize another country, have to die-if it is necessary- to protect it ( the other country).

Simple as that!

Edited to add. Even Collin Powell agrees that they messed it up...

Edited to add 2. Diogenes... I think that the original Diogenes would dissagree with you :)


You have really missed my point. I was hoping I wouldn't have to point that out to you..

You don't know anything about what uniforms I have worn or how I have served my country.

Do you think a country is a ' thing '?

If it is, what does that have to do with dying for a piece of artwork or an antique?
Much less, your opinion that someone else should do it, because you think it's a good idea...

[Cleopatra]

Yes indeed, I don't know what uniforms you have worn but this was a very easy answer.It worth my risking this comment though....

To me, country is a way of living , it's a lifestyle and the continuity of this lifestyle is symbolized by the items you call " antiques".

Archaeological findings are not antiques, they are pieces of our memories , pieces our ancestors touched.

So, for the continuity of my lifestyle, yes, I am willing to die and allow me to feel pity for those who are not.

[Ian]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Yep! That's why we are all a bunch of morally corrupt barbarians... All those missing books.. I'm sure one of those lost documents held the secret of brotherly love, world peace and interstellar travel.

I can't understand how all those marvelous treasures, in the hands of the Iraquis, did not enable them to lead the world, in social, industrial and ecnomic accomplisments..
----------------------------------------------------------------
Remembered? By whom?

Certainly not the average college freshman of today, who cannot find Iraq on a globe.

The inventions that they made in that library weren't put to practical use because the inventions that were made were made by slaves and they didn't challenge any of that. Quote from cosmos by Carl Sagan "They didn't challenge a single polotical, economic, social, or religious assumption in the society that they lived in." They just built weapons and used the technology for the amusement of kings and the promotion of superstitution. Some of that stuff may have led up to that library's destruction.

[Ian]

Originally posted by Supercharts
There is not one 'art object' or book that is worth the risk of a US Marine's life.

What about the lives of future generations who won't grow up to know their history.

[Knightmare6]

I just feel bad for the animals at the zoo, most are missing and the rest are starving :-(

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Originally posted by Knightmare6
I just feel bad for the animals at the zoo, most are missing and the rest are starving :-(

Iraqi's gotta eat, man!

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Ian


What about the lives of future generations who won't grow up to know their history.

This is a ridiculous question. Of course the loss of these items is a terrible loss, but come on...

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Ian


What about the lives of future generations who won't grow up to know their history.

Why is this happening in the U.S. ( generations growing up, without knowing their history)? Was there a museum looting I missed?

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Ian:
What about the lives of future generations who won't grow up to know their history.

Saddam's departure means that the odds of them having a life full stop have shortened considerably.

[schplurg]

What's sad to me is that the Iraqi's would loot their own museum, their own history and culture. Sounds like nobody knows for certain when the major items were taken, but from what I've heard so far, it seems like a planned job. I thought that in most "wars" it was the invaders who looted the museums, not the citizens of the nation in question.


Maybe the museum security guards should be blamed for not doing their jobs. ;)

Maybe the looters were just good citizens who feared their treasures being accidentally destroyed by an errant missile.

Maybe the books lost from the library were all censored and edited as a means of indoctrinating the Iraqi's. What books of value would be in a library in Iraq? A John Steinbeck 1st printing? Books on "Why America is evil"?


Okay now...
Is the coalition really expected to somehow bomb the hell out of a city, while at the same time maintain order on the streets? Is that even possible? How many museums, banks, libraries are in Baghdad?

This idea of making war "politically correct" is getting irritating. We went in, kicked out Mr. Evil and caused minimal civilian casualties while reporters, and the rest of the world, watched and analyzed every move. The US was "sensitive" about having our flag visible during battle (so we wouldn't give anyone the "wrong idea"). And now people are complaining because we didn't protect a museum from looters? Screw that!!! It's a WAR, remember?!

Their statues and relics are missing (not destroyed mind you...missing) and the library was "ravaged by fire" (were these old manuscripts etc actually destroyed?), but the Iraqi's aren't living under constant fear of a dictator anymore. Now granted, I'm not living in Iraq, but I don't think I'd give a rats ass about the museum at this point. I'm not happy this happened, but enough already!!! :mad:

I think the difference between the burning of the library in Alexandria and this case is that most of the valuable antiquities are probably still intact. They have just changed hands.

I often like to think like a criminal, and the thought crossed my mind weeks ago that the invasion would be a perfect opportunity to make a few bucks for some people.

Did any banks get robbed? :)

[heath]

Originally posted by Diogenes


If it is, what does that have to do with dying for a piece of artwork or an antique?
Much less, your opinion that someone else should do it, because you think it's a good idea...

I wonder if you aware of your double standard here? It's ok to risk lives to invade other countries but not to protect ancient artefacts?

If it's all about saving GI lives as you seem to imply then not invading at all would have saved all of them...

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by Supercharts
There is not one 'art object' or book that is worth the risk of a US Marine's life.

Well, let's be straightforward. It's been about 11 days since the "fall" of Baghdad. Since that day, there has been relative calm, and aside from a gunshot here or there, and that horrible suicide bomb, the U.S. military has been standing around doing absolutely nothing in Baghdad for the last week and a half. They just hang out and chat on street corners, guarding the stop signs I suppose.

The Museum and the Library, these were looted only at the beginning of this week. There were soldiers in the immediate vicinity of the Museum while it was looted, and I'd be willing to bet that there were some in the vicinity of the library when it was vandalized as well. The soldiers that were there were simply under orders not to interfere with the looting.

A week or two before the war actually started, there was a meeting in Washington between several prominent archaeologists and anthropologists as well as various other cultural experts, and the DoD leadership. The committee of experts had requested a forum to voice their concerns about precisely the type of looting that took place in Baghdad this week, and were granted a chance to present those concerns before Rumsfield and his associates. At the conclusion of the meeting, the committee was promised that the Baghdad Museum would be among the highest of priorities as far as protection was concerned, and that it would be guarded as soon as there were forces available to do so. That meeting was briefly highlighted in this month's issue of Archaeology magazine. The committee left confident that their concerns had been addressed.

The point is, there were forces available to guard the museum; indeed, they were casually standing on the street corners just outside - and had been for at least 4 straight days before the looting. It would have involved no significant hightening of risk to any American soldiers to change stance from just standing around outside the museum to actively guarding the museum proper; and indeed, the military leadership in Washington had in effect "given its word" that the museum would be so protected. What happened? Where did the communication problem or policy change occur?

Perhaps it was some unexpected turn of the war that left the military scrambling to come up with a new occupation/protection strategy, in which the city's cultural assets weren't included. But I find it highly unlikely, as all indications are that the war seems to have gone nearly perfectly according to plan; almost uncannily so - this despite the enigmatic Pentagon briefings in which a general's statements that the war was going quicker than expected were immediately followed by Rumsfield's assertions that the war would probably last longer than expected (which I found sort of funny in an almost Pythonesque sense). Perhaps, then, the Pentagon's "assurance" was simply a disingenuous brush-off. But a broken promise is a broken promise, and that, I believe, is why the White House cultural advisers resigned.

[zakur]

Originally posted by Supercharts
There is not one 'art object' or book that is worth the risk of a US Marine's life. But apparently there were records in the Ministry of Oil that were worth risking the lives of U.S. Marines...

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by zakur
But apparently there were records in the Ministry of Oil that were worth risking the lives of U.S. Marines...

No doubt, In the opinion of someone who makes those decisions..


Doesn't mean they are right, either.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Just a thought, but how much looting of government buildings do you think was organized by the French, Germans and Russians, anxious to see certain documents disappear?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Brooklyn Dodger
Just a thought, but how much looting of government buildings do you think was organized by the French, Germans and Russians, anxious to see certain documents disappear?

The ones that proved the existence of invisible pink Unicorns?

[Checkmite]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


The ones that proved the existence of invisible pink Unicorns?

No...I think he's talking about the MJ-12 files...

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


The ones that proved the existence of invisible pink Unicorns?

How about those concerning their complicity in Saddam's regime.

[Martin]

Didn't know you were a remote viewer, Brooklyn.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by heath


I wonder if you aware of your double standard here? It's ok to risk lives to invade other countries but not to protect ancient artefacts?

If it's all about saving GI lives as you seem to imply then not invading at all would have saved all of them...

I haven't tried to imply anything.

I have tried to make it clear that I disagree with Cleopatra and others who suggest that endangering anyone, for the sake of any object that might be found in any museum, doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

I have made it clear there are some ideals I might die for; but no " thing ".. ( i.e.. statue, painting, pottery shard...), and I certainly wouldn't think I'm qualified or justified to make that decision for anyone else.

[zakur]

Originally posted by Diogenes
I have tried to make it clear that I disagree with Cleopatra and others who suggest that endangering anyone, for the sake of any object that might be found in any museum, doesn't seem worthwhile to me.

I have made it clear there are some ideals I might die for; but no " thing ".. ( i.e.. statue, painting, pottery shard...), and I certainly wouldn't think I'm qualified or justified to make that decision for anyone else. I can agree that it is not worth endangering my life to save one particular book or shard of pottery. But what we're talking about here is not a single "thing," but vast collections of things—collections of very rare, very old (even ancient), irreplaceable, historically important things.

There are many Americans who have the same opinion as you, and say "A bunch of scrolls and shards of pottery are not worth risking the lives of U.S. Marines."

But they would not be saying the same thing if the entire U.S. National Archives, Smithsonian Institution, British Museum, British Library, Library of Congress or Musée du Louvre were threatened with destruction.

O.K...considering the current anti-French fervor, perhaps they would let The Louvre burn down, but you get my point.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

When Paris was liberated in World War Two there was an orgy of looting and retribution. More than 3,000 collaborators were murdered. Women who had slept with Germans had their heads shaved. There was a great deal of savagery going on that we didn't stop in Paris.

[schplurg]

There are many Americans who have the same opinion as you, and say "A bunch of scrolls and shards of pottery are not worth risking the lives of U.S. Marines."

But they would not be saying the same thing if the entire U.S. National Archives, Smithsonian Institution, British Museum, British Library, Library of Congress or Musée du Louvre were threatened with destruction. They wouldn't?

I would. If the Smithsonian and the Statue of Liberty had to be completely destroyed, or were accidentally destroyed while preserving my freedom, it would be a bummer, but oh well.

Besides, you're talking about Americans protecting our own museums etc. which we would do. The Iraqi's looted their own stuff! If it was important to them they wouldn't have done it, or they would have protected it! Did they even try to protect these places?

True, we did protect areas in Iraq that were deemed important by our military. We can guess as to why, but we don't know. I will assume that there are good reasons for protecting the oil ministry and other locations until I have reason to believe otherwise.

The terrorists tried to hurt our moral by knocking over two of the most recognizable buildings in the world - buildings that many consider an "icon" of American freedom and prosperity. It didn't work. Our "relics" are important, but they don't give us our freedom.

The fact that these things happened are unfortunate, but the coalition should not be blamed for this at all.

[muckraker]

When Paris was liberated in World War Two there was an orgy of looting and retribution.

Retribution against collaborators, yes, but no serious looting. The Germans did all the real looting, and long before the liberation.

WRT the attitude that it is not worth risking American lives to defend "shards of pottery", I think those folks are dead wrong.

I don't see how stationing a couple of Bradley fighting vehicles and a bunch of marines in front of the museum would have put Americans in any more risk than they would be anywhere else in Baghdad.

And I think that an occupying force, after they have brought down the government, has a moral obligation to try to preserve order in the country they are occupying.

We somehow managed to protect the oil ministry. Why? Because oil revenue will be an important part of the new Iraq. And I'm sure our troops would defend bridges, power plants, reservoirs, etc. if they were threatened.

But a people's sense of history and their cultural heritage is just as important. (And if you think that a sense of history isn't important, and doesn't affect how people act and how they think, then you don't know anything about the middle east).

Face it, we screwed up. Let's just have the Administration admit it, and get on with the nation building.

[Supercharts]

Originally posted by muckraker


WRT the attitude that it is not worth risking American lives to defend "shards of pottery", I think those folks are dead wrong.



He died to defend some shards of pottery. :( Didn't surrender his life for an ideal but for 4,000-year-old clay. Clay that describes market transactions.
I cannot imagine that in 3,000 years someone will go through our landfills and defend a 3,000 year-old diaper. If they do then the whole human race is doomed.
[But that's just me...I could be wrong]

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Supercharts


He died to defend some shards of pottery. :( Didn't surrender his life for an ideal but for 4,000-year-old clay. Clay that describes market transactions.
I cannot imagine that in 3,000 years someone will go through our landfills and defend a 3,000 year-old diaper. If they do then the whole human race is doomed.
[But that's just me...I could be wrong]


Not an old diaper:

http://www.ibmps1.com/plathd7front.jpg

[DrBenway]

Originally posted by Supercharts
He died to defend some shards of pottery.
Your logic is flawed.

The choice proposed isn't between
a. Marine dies, artifacts are preserved, or
b. Marine lives, artifacts are lost.

The choice is between
a. Marines guard museum, and potentially are harmed
b. Marines don't guard museum, and artifacts are lost

If it were the first case, I would agree with you. But in fact, there is no certainty that any marine will die in an effort to guard the museum.

[Cleopatra]

How many marines died trying to protect the Ministry of Oil...

ANYWAY , I have some good news guys!

Some items were found already.

I told you that Interpol has taken the thing seriously and when Interpol gets things seriously...well... we have results! :)

[Megalodon]

Originally posted by schplurg
The fact that these things happened are unfortunate, but the coalition should not be blamed for this at all.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. If the coalition invades a country, then it is responsible for maintaining the order. Without fear of retribution, some individuals will always do despicable things. You just have to look at the looting during the LA riots.

The coalition had previous warning that this might happen, and didn't make any efforts to prevent it.

The idea this transmits is that the coalition doesn't care in the least with the Iraqui people. If they did, they would have taken precautionary measures to protect their history against opportunist rats.

It is not, and it was never about the iraqui people. And the future will say how good a deal the iraquis will take out of it. I hope that the coalition will be able to succeed in making a transition into democracy, as that would be the only positive outcome of this illegal war, but the odds don't seem that good.

Cheers

[Skeptical Greg]

The idea this transmits is that the coalition doesn't care in the least with the Iraqui people.



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Megalodon]

Originally posted by Diogenes

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Thoughtfull response... I'm overwhelmed...

Try again.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Megalodon


Thoughtfull response... I'm overwhelmed...

Try again. In context this time.

Thanks.. I thought it was at least as thoughtfull and informed as yours..

[Megalodon]

Originally posted by Diogenes


Thanks.. I thought it was at least as thoughtfull and informed as yours..

Let's see... I didn't argue that the coalition didn't care for the iraqui people. What I said was that this incident transmits that idea, specially coupled with the protection of the Oil Ministery.

However, you seem to think that it doesn't send that message, but don't say anything relevant to counter my position.

I admire the way the coalition handled the war, minimizing the civilian casualties. If the body of Saddam is found in the ruble, I won't shed any tears, except for the oxigen is rotting carcass will still consume.

But I also think the war was illegal, and that it didn't have much to do with the welfare of the iraquis. as I said before:
the future will say how good a deal the iraquis will take out of it. I hope that the coalition will be able to succeed in making a transition into democracy

If you don't agree with my position, is your right. If you want to discuss our diferent views, be my guest. If you want to post smilies, grow up.

[Baker]

I wanted to bump this thread back to the top because of Diogene's new thread on the subject!:)

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18753

Originally posted by Diogenes
Well a Right-Wing Matriarchal Bed-Wetter's gotta' do what oughta' be done, so here it is..

From this thread:
Looted Baghdad museum (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18731) Down from 170,000 priceless treasures, to 29!!!....:eek:

Why do I think this thread won't get the attention that this one did?

US experts resign over Iraq looting (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17777)

Cleopatra?

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Fair enough.

[Cleopatra]

Allow me to have many reasons to question those news. I was reading an article in NYTimes the other day which justified the thieves... I thought to post it here but I couldn't stand any more comments of " a piece of pottery doesn't worth the life of a US marine" as if I don't know what Army is...

Anyway.

Of course, Englishmen are doing their best to justify how those artifacts will be in British Museums pretty soon and I bet you on that!

But if I remember well, Diogenes, didn't care about pottery...

Since I do care, thanks for letting me know. although if you check above, you will see that I have an eye on the issue and my info was provided by Interpol threw my association's network.

Those happy news ,about the decrease of the number of the lost items,haven't arrived threw the network yet but I am sure that it's only a matter of time...

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by Cleopatra

But if I remember well, Diogenes, didn't care about pottery...



You don't.. ( remember well ) But that kind of goes along with making stuff up...


I care a lot about pottery. Especially when I have to go to the pot...:D

Gotta' go now...

[Ian]

What happened to the other 169971 artifacts? How will people track them down?