Kathy this is why I don't fear eternal damnation.

[Ceritus]

I for one am thankful that you care enough for us that you would come here and accept criticism just because you fear for our souls, not many people are this caring. I do recognize the feelings you hold for people like me and most of the other people on this board. You do not want anyone to experience eternal damnation.

I do not reject your beliefs or your documents because I wish to continue a "pagan" lifestyle. I reject them simply because your beliefs and your documents have not shown me any valid evidence to support them. According to the bible Jesus showed Thomas the holes in his hands and I would expect the same of a loving god to do so continously for those who are on the brink of eternal agony simply because they use logic and rationality.

You must know that being an atheist, at least from my point of view is that I don't believe in anything that has no reasonable evidence for its validity. I do not believe in magic, ghosts, voodoo, or anything of the sort. It is not that I choose to ignore your god alone I choose to let the evidence guide me to the truth. Would you do your finances on a program that is known to not be accurate all of the time? Or even some of the time? I see the bible much like a faulty program that gives out incorrect answers more often than not and I consider the way I live my life much more important than finances. Sure science has its flaws at times but it is not because of the scientific process but more because of the human being creating the process and executing it, based on faulty or unreasonable evidence.

If you believe that the bible is god’s word and infallible the human factor would be no argument of defense simply because it is supposedly divinely inspired. A god that is infallible would make no mistakes in the text especially obvious ones. Therefore you must conclude it was a human element that created these contradictions. Because the bible has mistakes the definition of infallible would not reflect it. Which leaves much doubt for any rational person to believe in such a book.

To me following evidence is all that matters. We all follow evidence and sometimes we do it unknowingly. Would you jump out of an airplane without a parachute? Of course you wouldn't at least I would hope you wouldn't. The reason you would not is because you know what would most likely happen based on other people who have jumped from high heights and how their remains lay near or where they landed. A child can be told not to touch the flame on the stove many times and they can be scolded or spanked many times but they will never know why not to touch the flame on the stove until they are burned. Many if not all children are highly irrational, it is because they do not have the experience to know how to be rational. As most people get older they start realizing instead of having their hand burned on the stove they would much rather let someone else do it and learn from them. Sadly though, this is where the rationality of most people halts.

There are many people who would not take the risk of flying on an airplane and most of these people consider themselves rational human beings. They fear flying because they have seen the devastation an airplane crash can cause. Yet they let their own personal experience of driving a car guide their decision because they have done it so many times before. Anybody who has done any research knows that driving a car is much more dangerous than flying in an airplane. This is risk assessment which is determining if the risk is greater than the reward. People die of food poisoning everyday others die of terrorists bombing public places. Does this mean I will not eat or go outside? I see reasonable evidence to tell me that the risk is very real; however looking at the statistics I know my chances of experiencing these outcomes is very slim. Knowing how small my chances are of experiencing these horrible conclusions I would much rather enjoy the sunlight and eat food at family picnics.

Now this is where I bring the threat of hell into play. I have seen no evidence whatsoever to tell me the threat of hell is real. I have not seen any physical proof that there has been any human being who has stood at the pearly gates and was judged by a god. I have seen no evidence of a human body containing a soul. There is just no valid reason I should fear this, even though many people throughout the world fear this. The majority belief does not count as proof. Just take for example, not all that long ago in relative terms, the majority of people believed that the world was flat. They used their own experiences of walking along the ground and not noticing the very sleight curvature of the earth to lead to that belief. The threat of me disregarding my rational center is far greater than fearing eternal damnation. I know irrational people kill other people, I know irrational people throw away their belonging and leave their loved ones. I know irrational people try to take advantage of other irrational people. I know that irrational people will kill themselves. Losing my center of rationality is about the greatest risk I could take and it obviously doesn't out weigh any known reward.

So Kathy, if you want what is best for me or any of us you should promote rationality throughout the world. Not an evidenceless threat of an eternity of suffering. You ask us to look around at everything and believe it is not real or that it does not matter. I ask you Kathy to just look around at this existence and touch it, taste it, smell it, and embrace it enjoy every second of it because there is no evidence of an eternity. There is no evidence of another shot at giving all the love you can to the people around you instead of wasting it on an evidenceless being. Instead of looking up at the sky and praying that these people who are suffering will be helped, get up and do what you can physically. Instead of wasting your time studying a flawed book use your time to learn what’s real and then use what you've learned to teach others. It is this accepted irrationality in the world that allows living people to suffer more than they should. Stop trying to separate yourself and others from this place because this is all that is real.

I have to stop Kathy my emotions are beginning to take hold. There are tears dripping down my cheek because I have seen in past experiences that people like you would already wish to be dead than enjoy the life you have. That you would rather plan on what you will be doing after you die instead of planning on what you will do to enjoy the time you have. On average we only have about 78 years to live if we are lucky and in that time if you keep waiting for something that there is no evidence of existance you will miss the happiness you could have felt and given to others.

[RandFan]

Good post.

[Ryokan]

That was beautiful, Ceritus.

Edit : I've nominated the post for the Language Award.

[Grimes]

Indeed. It's unfortunate that Kathy will stop reading it at the second sentence of the second paragraph.

Well, that's what I surmise from reading her posts, anyway.

[Ceritus]

I just thought I'd write what I could. It is her choice if she chooses to ignore the body of it and just read the beginning. If she does ignore the rest after the first few sentences then it just goes to show how some people look at the surface of things and ignore why these things are the way they are. If she wants to just work on her agenda without understanding how other people accept it than hopefully her agenda will be contained. But as many of us know, that is not always the case. Some say without Jesus I will never have eternal life, I say these people are already dead.

[ceo_esq]

That was a very good post.

Its qualities should be obvious to everyone, so please don't take offense if I point out a few things that I find questionable about it.

First, the post implies that the use of reason and logic are strictly inconsistent with Christianity. As Edward Grant (http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521802792) has written, "The idea, and the habit, of applying reason to resolve the innumerable questions about our world, and of always raising new questions" is a legacy to the modern world from medieval Christian theology, which was a "rationalistic enterprise."

Second, and related to the first point, the post incorrectly suggests (at least to me) that the natural relationship between Christianity and science is one of competition or opposition.

Third, the final paragraph suggests that religious persons are somehow more at risk than nonreligious persons of failing to enjoy life, missing out on happiness or on opportunities to bring happiness to others. I am aware of no evidence that this is the case, and indeed some surveys indicate that there may be a slight tendency in the opposite direction.

All in all, however, a very sensitive and well-written post. Well done.

[Ceritus]

I will admit you may be right. After writing a huge post I came to realize the requirments for such a perfect world would be very irrational and very unlikley. However I cannot help but feel much of the sadness people feel is because of irrational behaivior that already exists or that they portray.

[kurious_kathy]

There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ. How do you explain that? I would venture you have never really been open to inquire from other believers. Might you think of inquiring of their life changing testimonies, you might consider there is evidence of the other side of life. The spiritual side.
And there are plenty of near death experiences too. I just recently bought a book that is based on a true story of Death and Life called 90 minutes in Heaven by Don Piper. He was in a fatal car accident that when he arrived at the hospital he was pronounced dead, DOA. He explains his experience in detail.
And there are many others.
Supernatural experiences. Explain the unexplainable. That is what I call a miracle. And I myself had what I consider a near death experience. That's changed my life. Jesus turned me around in such a way that I could never deny Him. I am only alive beacuase it was His will to save me. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, but promised. I can't tell you enough how my life has changed! I am seeing just how much God's word is true. He has proven Himself to me and many, many others! I just feel so compelled to share with everyone now, because I was once looking for answers according to mans wisdom. Now in Him all Ive learned and experienced has made me more complete. I never felt this way before. And I have done much inquiring in my pagan days! There are many half truths, or lies out there. I myself needed the truth and I was tired of living lies! He reveals Himself to those that truely seek Him. That's all I can say. Jesus Lives!!

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ. How do you explain that? I would venture you have never really been open to inquire from other believers. Might you think of inquiring of their life changing testimonies, you might consider there is evidence of the other side of life. The spiritual side.
And there are plenty of near death experiences too. I just recently bought a book that is based on a true story of Death and Life called 90 minutes in Heaven by Don Piper. He was in a fatal car accident that when he arrived at the hospital he was pronounced dead, DOA. He explains his experience in detail.
And there are many others.
Supernatural experiences. Explain the unexplainable. That is what I call a miracle. And I myself had what I consider a near death experience. That's changed my life. Jesus turned me around in such a way that I could never deny Him. I am only alive beacuase it was His will to save me. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, but promised. I can't tell you enough how my life has changed! I am seeing just how much God's word is true. He has proven Himself to me and many, many others! I just feel so compelled to share with everyone now, because I was once looking for answers according to mans wisdom. Now in Him all Ive learned and experienced has made me more complete. I never felt this way before. And I have done much inquiring in my pagan days! There are many half truths, or lies out there. I myself needed the truth and I was tired of living lies! He reveals Himself to those that truely seek Him. That's all I can say. Jesus Lives!! The lack of an explanation is not in and of itself an answer. It is nothing more than "God of the gaps" or arguing from ignorance. Cloning, splitting the atom, synthesizing carbon, etc. All these things plus many more are things that humans thought were the realm of god but it turns out not to be the case. If we can't explain something it just means we can't explain it. However NDE (near death experience) is explainable. Very often the truth IS out there. We have to take the time and effort to look for it and not just accept what sounds good or makes us feel better.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ.

You are making an illogical statement.

"people having faith in christ" =/= "Jesus", but you have equated them.

Your first statement is about "lives that Jesus has changed." But then you immediately change your argument. The second sentence admits that it is "faith in Christ" that causes the change.

Given faith is "a belief," your entire argument boils down to "People change when they change their beliefs." All well and true, but it holds equally well for anything. The Beatles's lives changed when they went to the Maharishi. My life changed when I gave up my belief in God. My life also changed when I came to believe that minor league baseball stats, when taken into proper context, are just as reliable as major league stats for predicting future performance.

Yes, changes in what we believe can impact our lives. But that is irrespective of "Jesus." It does not require that he exists, only that people _believe_ he exists. And just because people believe something, even if it is a lot of people, doesn't make it true.

[cyborg]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ. How do you explain that?

Same way I'd explain it if someone told me Zeus had had sex with his wife in the form of a sheep - he's delusional.

I would venture you have never really been open to inquire from other believers. Might you think of inquiring of their life changing testimonies, you might consider there is evidence of the other side of life.

Testimonies are evidence of suggestibility, not for your god. Have you got ANYTHING to distinguish YOUR faith's testimonies from those of other faiths? When someone says their life was changed by Buddism what do you say? When someone says Allah showed them the true way what do you say? When someone says their life was changed when they reached a 10th level mage what do you say?

I suppose you shrug them off as 'false' but what do you have to distinguish them?

And there are plenty of near death experiences too. I just recently bought a book that is based on a true story of Death and Life called 90 minutes in Heaven by Don Piper. He was in a fatal car accident that when he arrived at the hospital he was pronounced dead, DOA. He explains his experience in detail.

And people get abducted by aliens...

Have you not considered another wonderful god given gift? The ability to make **** up that plain ol' just ain't true coupled with altered-states and social expectations? These sorts of things are tantamount to other social legends that are given truth by merely being repeated often enough and meeting the expectations of those who WANT it to be true.

Supernatural experiences. Explain the unexplainable. That is what I call a miracle.

Got any examples of miracles lately?

And I myself had what I consider a near death experience. That's changed my life. Jesus turned me around in such a way that I could never deny Him. I am only alive beacuase it was His will to save me. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, but promised. I can't tell you enough how my life has changed! I am seeing just how much God's word is true. He has proven Himself to me and many, many others! I just feel so compelled to share with everyone now, because I was once looking for answers according to mans wisdom. Now in Him all Ive learned and experienced has made me more complete. I never felt this way before.

Again, ever considered that you are self-deluding? How else would you explain pretty much word-for-word testimonies from people not of your faith? You're not exactly given to polytheism.

And I have done much inquiring in my pagan days!

You were never a pagan.

There are many half truths, or lies out there. I myself needed the truth and I was tired of living lies!

Yet you choose to engulf yourself in one with joyous rapture.

He reveals Himself to those that truely seek Him.

Translation: if you delude yourself he exists you'll think he exists.

That's all I can say. Jesus Lives!!

Repeat it x100000.

It's still not true.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
He reveals Himself to those that truely seek Him. That's all I can say.

Wait a minute.

Initially you claimed that Jesus changed your life. Are you now saying that you actually, you had to change your life first before he actually came to live inside you?

That makes a big difference. At least before I could only question why this Jesus didn't change me like he changed you. OTOH, now it appears that Jesus did no such thing at all, and that your whole change is actually due to YOU changing on your own.

As such, see my post above. You are back to nothing. You aren't a thessolonian, I guess. You are just another deluded whacko who relies on illogical non-sequitors.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by RandFan
The lack of an explanation is not in and of itself an answer. It is nothing more than "God of the gaps" or arguing from ignorance. Cloning, splitting the atom, synthesizing carbon, etc. All these things plus many more are things that humans thought were the realm of god but it turns out not to be the case. If we can't explain something it just means we can't explain it. However NDE (near death experience) is explainable. Very often the truth IS out there. We have to take the time and effort to look for it and not just accept what sounds good or makes us feel better. Ignorance to me is not being open to ask? Lives are changed everyday because of the gospel. It's not just words. The change happens from the inside out. The explaination is Jesus saves and restores broken lives.
That's what my life became, broken. I was raised in a disfunctional family. Just another divorce right. Wrong it has lots to do with the sins of the fathers passed down each generation until someone finds faith and turns it around. It was never meant to be all about us! I just couldn't see what I had done that lead me down the wrong path. My second marriage was almost destroyed by my own selfishness. I wasn't caring about anything before. Just what I wanted. I left God out of the equation. The formula for disaster in anyones life is to leave God out of the equation! You want success? Gotta have God!

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by pgwenthold
Wait a minute.

Initially you claimed that Jesus changed your life. Are you now saying that you actually, you had to change your life first before he actually came to live inside you?

That makes a big difference. At least before I could only question why this Jesus didn't change me like he changed you. OTOH, now it appears that Jesus did no such thing at all, and that your whole change is actually due to YOU changing on your own.

As such, see my post above. You are back to nothing. You aren't a thessolonian, I guess. You are just another deluded whacko who relies on illogical non-sequitors. Back to nothing according to who? You? I really am not trying to impress anyone. God is the one we should all try to please. And I never claimed to be a theologian! I just know, now for the first time in my life God's word makes the difference.
There is a story in the Bible of how Jesus met the woman at the well that I can really relate to.
John 4:7-42
When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])
Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"
Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."
He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
"I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet.Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

The Disciples Rejoin Jesus
Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?"
Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people,"Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ[b]?" They came out of the town and made their way toward him.
Meanwhile his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something."
But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."
Then his disciples said to each other, "Could someone have brought him food?"
"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps' is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor."

Many Samaritans Believe
Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did."So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. And because of his words many more became believers.
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

[Disco]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
The formula for disaster in anyones life is to leave God out of the equation! You want success? Gotta have God!

Kathy, is that just any ole God, or the specific Christian variety of Jesus/God?

'Cause it seems to me there are plenty of successful folks who don't believe in God, even if it's just a garden-variety generic God.

How do you explain those folks' success?

MHB

[Palimpsest]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I really am not trying to impress anyone.

And you're doing a bang-up job.

There is a story in the Bible of how Jesus met the woman at the well that I can really relate to.
John 4:7-42

Yes, yes. Most of us have read the Bible too, y'know.

*snip*

Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did."So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. And because of his words many more became believers.

They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

Palimpsest 4:39-42 None of the Skeptics from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "I was a pagan sinner, like unto an angry miserable new-agey wench, he saved my life, let me throweth out some Bible verses at random!" So when the Skeptics looked for corroborating evidence and found none, no more of them became believers.

They said to the woman, "We won't believe just because of what you said; you're not the first would-be missionary to come to yon forum, and sadly you won't be the last. Where is the evidence? How can we hear the word of your god that we may judge whether it be worthy of worship? And none of this 'listening from the heart' babble. And could you please actually read other people's posts and reply to their words instead of just spouting verses? Thanks ever so."

Thus endeth the lesson.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Back to nothing according to who? You? I really am not trying to impress anyone. God is the one we should all try to please. And I never claimed to be a theologian! I just know, now for the first time in my life God's word makes the difference.

But you claimed earlier that "Jesus was alive in you" and "Jesus set you free."

Now you are claiming that it isn't really Jesus who is making all these difference, but it is actually God's "word" that is making the difference?

Of course, it is really "what you believe to be God's word" that is making a difference, so you are back to the old "my changed beliefs have made my life different," which is no big deal at all.

If you are not trying to impress anyone, I will say I'm glad, because you aren't doing a very good job. But less snidely, I will say that for someone not trying to impress anyone, you spend a lot of time making grand statements about how great your life is now that you believe in Jesus.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Ignorance to me is not being open to ask? Lives are changed everyday because of the gospel. It's not just words. The change happens from the inside out. The explaination is Jesus saves and restores broken lives.
That's what my life became, broken. I was raised in a disfunctional family. Just another divorce right. Wrong it has lots to do with the sins of the fathers passed down each generation until someone finds faith and turns it around. It was never meant to be all about us! I just couldn't see what I had done that lead me down the wrong path. My second marriage was almost destroyed by my own selfishness. I wasn't caring about anything before. Just what I wanted. I left God out of the equation. The formula for disaster in anyones life is to leave God out of the equation! You want success? Gotta have God! Does it matter which God or which belief? I was raised Mormon and many Christian churches reject Mormonism. Do you? Is Diesm cool? Is Christ important or just God?

[Genesius]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed!

Lots of Scientologists claim Scientology changed their lives for the better, too. By your logic that means L. Ron Hubbard is God. . .

[BracesForImpact]

Hi Kathy,

There is evidence everywhere

Yes there is Kathy, but how strong is the evidence? Where does it lead? What does the evidence show? Evidence is weighed, it isn't something that merely exists by itself in a vacuum. That's very important.

Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ. How do you explain that?

How I explain it depends on the situation Kathy. Christianity isn't unique when it comes to changing lives. Hindus, Jews, Muslims all make the same claims about their god(s) changing their lives for the better! Often times I think people want to change, but they don't know how. They don't have a mechanism for that change, they don't have a set of instructions or a method to follow, so it becomes very difficult. But religion gives them this method, regardless of which one it is. Often, religion (regardless of type) gives them the comfort and support of other people that help the person make the changes they want to make in their life for the better. Kathy, ask yourself this. Why do other religions have the same success rate when it comes to people changing their lives for the better? Could it be that people make the necessary changes in their life and attribute it to god, regardless of which religion they follow?


I would venture you have never really been open to inquire from other believers. Might you think of inquiring of their life changing testimonies, you might consider there is evidence of the other side of life. The spiritual side.

That's where you would be wrong Kathy. I was a Christian at one time. I heard the testimony of other Christians and how god changed their lives night after night. At one time, I gave my own testimony! Please don't dismiss my sincerity here. It's easy to say I wasn't a "real Christian". When you really really like something, take your favorite food for example, it's very difficult to imagine someone else thinks it tastes awful isn't it? But they do. Does that mean they're mistaken or being insincere? No. It's the same way with religion.

And there are plenty of near death experiences too. I just recently bought a book that is based on a true story of Death and Life called 90 minutes in Heaven by Don Piper. He was in a fatal car accident that when he arrived at the hospital he was pronounced dead, DOA. He explains his experience in detail.
And there are many others.

Here you bring another line of evidence to the table. The problem is I don't agree with your conclusion about where the evidence leads. Kathy, did you know that people all over the world have NDE's (Near Death Experiences)? Did you know that when people experience NDE's that Muslims often describe Muslim heaven or hell, or that Hindu's do the same, while Christians often describe their own version of heaven and hell? How do you explain that that? Did you know that some people describe something completely different from a religious or spiritual experience? Most people don't experience anything at all. Did you know that an NDE can be reproduced under laboratory conditions that slow the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain? If we look at the evidence objectively, the most likely conclusion we can actually come to is that the brain hallucinates from lack of oxygen as we die, and that the visions we experience are often colored by our cultural expectations.

Supernatural experiences. Explain the unexplainable. That is what I call a miracle.

This is more evidence that people from different faiths often bring up as proof for the existence of the their particular god. Why can't these miracles ever be verified? Why do they so often turn out as the practice of dishonest con men or mistakes? Why does virtually every faith have it's own miracles? Muslims, Hindus, Christians - all have miracles to point to as proof their god exists. Some miracles are the result of "magic" and aren't attributed to god at all! Why is this Kathy?

That's changed my life. Jesus turned me around in such a way that I could never deny Him. I am only alive because it was His will to save me. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, but promised. I can't tell you enough how my life has changed! I am seeing just how much God's word is true. He has proven Himself to me and many, many others! I just feel so compelled to share with everyone now, because I was once looking for answers according to mans wisdom. Now in Him all Ive learned and experienced has made me more complete. I never felt this way before. And I have done much inquiring in my pagan days! There are many half truths, or lies out there. I myself needed the truth and I was tired of living lies! He reveals Himself to those that truely seek Him. That's all I can say. Jesus Lives!!

Brand new Christians are often really excited to share their new truth with everyone they meet. I was at one time also. If I may give you one piece of advice Kathy? Never, ever use your religion to hate. Time and again I see enthusiastic Christians do this. They start out so happy, full of light and truth. Before too long, they are condemning others and making judgments and pronouncements upon people. I wish you were right Kathy, I really do. But despite my seeking I have found nothing. I would love to believe we can find a tried and true method of morality, that everyone can be happy, and that we can defeat death. Unfortunately I cannot believe. So many Christians seem to think it's a matter of choice. They say "all you have to do is believe." Can you honestly choose to believe in Odin today through sheer effort? I couldn't.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by ooh_child
Kathy, is that just any ole God, or the specific Christian variety of Jesus/God?

'Cause it seems to me there are plenty of successful folks who don't believe in God, even if it's just a garden-variety generic God.

How do you explain those folks' success?

MHB Secular Humanism. I myself do not want to take that point of view anymore. Being a God pleaser not trying to live up to what others think of me anymore. God knows what each of us believe in our heart.
God has given us a manual to follow His instructions on how to live our life according to what is pleasing to God. I value every word that Jesus said in the New Testament and do take it to heart. The sermon on the mount is one of my favorites! The Beatitudes, ever heard it?
Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

[Palimpsest]

Blessed are the cheesemakers?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Secular Humanism. I myself do not want to take that point of view anymore. Being a God pleaser not trying to live up to what others think of me anymore. God knows what each of us believe in our heart. This is just your sentiment and opinion. It doesn't mean anything to us.

God has given us a manual to follow His instructions on how to live our life according to what is pleasing to God. Why does God need to be pleased?

I value every word that Jesus said in the New Testament and do take it to heart. More sentiment and opinion

The sermon on the mount is one of my favorites! The Beatitudes, ever heard it? I know it by heart. I spent 20 years of my life reading and studying, 3 years in seminary and 2 years preaching the gospel on a full time mission.

Did you know that many of the sentiments of Christ pre-date him?

[Disco]

Thanks, Kathy, but where is the God in Secular Humanism? If these folks need God to be successful, that is.

And thanks for the Jesus quotes, but I just don't see how you can believe these pretty words were said by him. They do sound comforting & nice, but to positively attribute them to a man who might have lived a few millenia ago is a HUGE stretch for me.

MHB

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by RandFan
This is just your sentiment and opinion. It doesn't mean anything to us.

Why does God need to be pleased?

More sentiment and opinion

I know it by heart. I spent 20 years of my life reading and studying, 3 years in seminary and 2 years preaching the gospel on a full time mission.

Did you know that many of the sentiments of Christ pre-date him? Yes, the Old Testament is full of prophetic messages. The pre-incarnate Christ. He was also the one who came out of the fire with,
Daniel 3:16-25
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up."
Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace.
Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, "Weren't there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?"
They replied, "Certainly, O king."
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

So why have you turned away from the faith if you were once a believer? God is worthy of everything in our lives. Don't you acknowlege Him anymore? I can't imagine a life without Him in it!

[Ceritus]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ. How do you explain that? I would venture you have never really been open to inquire from other believers. Might you think of inquiring of their life changing testimonies, you might consider there is evidence of the other side of life. The spiritual side.
And there are plenty of near death experiences too. I just recently bought a book that is based on a true story of Death and Life called 90 minutes in Heaven by Don Piper. He was in a fatal car accident that when he arrived at the hospital he was pronounced dead, DOA. He explains his experience in detail.
And there are many others.
Supernatural experiences. Explain the unexplainable. That is what I call a miracle. And I myself had what I consider a near death experience. That's changed my life. Jesus turned me around in such a way that I could never deny Him. I am only alive beacuase it was His will to save me. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, but promised. I can't tell you enough how my life has changed! I am seeing just how much God's word is true. He has proven Himself to me and many, many others! I just feel so compelled to share with everyone now, because I was once looking for answers according to mans wisdom. Now in Him all Ive learned and experienced has made me more complete. I never felt this way before. And I have done much inquiring in my pagan days! There are many half truths, or lies out there. I myself needed the truth and I was tired of living lies! He reveals Himself to those that truely seek Him. That's all I can say. Jesus Lives!!

There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that rationality has changed! People are not the same when they come to logical conclusions in science. How do you explain that? I would venture you have never really been open to inquire from other skeptics. Might you think of inquiring of their life changing experiments, you might consider there is evidence of other ways to to enjoy life. The rational way.
And there are plenty of near death experiences too. I just recently saw a program that is based on a true story of people who write books on bullsh!t called Bullsh!t hosted by Penn and Teller. They interview people who were in fatal accident's and when they arrived at the hospital some were pronounced dead, DOA. They explain their experiences in detail.
And there are many others.
Supernatural experiences debunked. Opening the eyes of a religious fanatic to truth. That is what I call a miracle. And I myself had what I consider a near irrational experience. That's what changed my life. Science showed me how I was delluded and it turned me around in such a way that I could never deny valid evidence. I am only alive because it was rational thinking that saved me and continues to save me. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, but promised so using rational thinking I know not everything promised comes true. I can't tell you enough how my life has changed! I am seeing just how much crap people believe is true. Scientists have proven their theories with riggorous experiments to me and many, many others! I just feel so compelled to share that with everyone, because I was once looking for answers according to Gods wisdom. Now in Science all Ive learned and experienced has made me more complete. I never felt this way before. And I have done much inquiring in my christian days! There are many half truths, or lies out there. I myself needed the truth and I was tired of living lies! Science reveals almost anything to those that truely want to understand. That's all I can say. Atheism Rules!!!


Now do you feel compelled kathy?

[Z]

Kathy, let me ask a series of questions, patiently, one at a time, and you answer, to the best of your ability, based on your understanding of the Word.

First: Is God absolutely omniscient? To be precise, does God see, hear, and know absolutely everything there is to be known, past, present, and future? Does God know everything in every person's heart and mind completely? Does God know every choice that every thing will ever make?

Please answer that, and I will present my next question.

The goal, in this case, is to simply attempt to grasp your understanding of the nature of God.

Thanks.

[c4ts]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
The formula for disaster in anyones life is to leave God out of the equation! You want success? Gotta have God!

Is that so? Tom Cruise is an extremely successful actor, and look what he believes in!

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
There is evidence everywhere. Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ. How do you explain that? ... That's changed my life. Jesus turned me around in such a way that I could never deny Him. I am only alive beacuase it was His will to save me. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, but promised. I can't tell you enough how my life has changed! I am seeing just how much God's word is true. He has proven Himself to me and many, many others! I just feel so compelled to share with everyone now, because I was once looking for answers according to mans wisdom. Now in Him all Ive learned and experienced has made me more complete. I never felt this way before. Compare your testimony with this (http://www.islamfortoday.com/aminahassilmi1.htm), written by a convert to Islam (from Christianity):When I first started to study Islam, I did not expect to find anything that I needed or wanted in my personal life. Little did I know that Islam would change my life. No human could have ever convinced me that I would finally be at peace and overflowing with love and joy because of Islam...

This book spoke of THE ONE GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. It described the beautiful way in which He had organised the world. This wondrous Qur'an had all the answers... The Qur'an addressed all the issues of existence and showed a clear path to success. It was like a map for giving, an owner manual for life!

My inner peace has continued to increase with my knowledge and confidence in the Wisdom of Allah. I know that Allah is not only my Creator but, my dearest friend. I know that Allah will always be there and will never reject me. For every step I take toward Allah, He takes 10 toward me. What a wonderful knowledge...

The only approval I needed was from Allah. The only love I needed was from Allah. Yet, I discovered more and more people, who for no apparent reason, loved me. I rejoiced, for I remembered reading that if Allah loves you, He causes others to love you. I am not worthy of all the love. That means it must be another gift from Allah. Allah is the Greatest!

There is no way to fully explain how my life changed. Alhamdulillah! I am so very glad that I am a Muslim. Islam is my life. Islam is the beat of my heart. Islam is the blood that courses through my veins. Islam is my strength. Islam is my life so wonderful and beautiful. Without Islam, I am nothing and should Allah ever turn His magnificent face from me I could not survive. Do you find her testimony a convincing reason to abandon Christianity for Islam? If not, why not?

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by ooh_child
Thanks, Kathy, but where is the God in Secular Humanism? If these folks need God to be successful, that is.

And thanks for the Jesus quotes, but I just don't see how you can believe these pretty words were said by him. They do sound comforting & nice, but to positively attribute them to a man who might have lived a few millenia ago is a HUGE stretch for me.

MHB He died but He rose again. Jesus is alive. And His Holy spirit is being poored out on all flesh just as He told us it would be.
The problem I see in our society is that people have no conviction anymore! Seems many just don't care about what's good and right. Where do you think morality stems from? Christianity. Seems our society has forgotten or just gotten way of track from what true values are. Why? God ordained marriage and the family structure too, but look around at the divorce rate. It's all because people leave Him out of their lives. He still works miracles too. I know because I am one. The fact that I am here sharing this with you is more than I would have thought possible.
God is still there just waiting for us to invite Him into our lives. It's a real loving relationship with Him, not just words, Life!!

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Yes, the Old Testament is full of prophetic messages. That is not what I said. I said his sentiments, his philosophy. Please don't do that. Please don't change the meaning of my words to make it look like I said something that I didn't. It's not very nice.

He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods." And how many gods are there? What does a son of the gods look like and how would one recognize him even outside of flames so intense those who were near them died.

So why have you turned away from the faith if you were once a believer? Reason. I didn't want to. I liked church and spirituality and it was comforting to believe in god. But then it was comforting to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


God is worthy of everything in our lives. Sentiment. Christianity isn't the only belief about god and this sentiment is not universal. Why should I believe this even IF I believe there is a god(s)

Don't you acknowlege Him anymore? No more than Santa Claus.

I can't imagine a life without Him in it! Yeah that is typical of those who are dependent on something external. I understand it but it is not necessary. It is just a crutch. I'm not anti-religion. If it is important to you then I will respect your beliefs just understand that most of us do just fine without such artificial means of support.

This reminds me of a time when I was on vacation and my daughter left her doll at a restaurant and we had traveled nearly a hundred miles. She looked at me with tear filled eyes and asked me if I would go back to get her doll. I did. She doesn't need it anymore. Some people don't get over such crutches. They need to believe in things that are not real.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Seems many just don't care about what's good and right. Bingo "seems". Just because something "seems" so doesn't mean that it is so. Do you have evidence? Have you considered all of the evidence or only cherry picked information that fits with your world view?

[Ceritus]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Seems our society has forgotten or just gotten way of track from what true values are. Why? God ordained marriage and the family structure too, but look around at the divorce rate. It's all because people leave Him out of their lives.

Without marriage there would be no divorce! But there is no point in explaining this because yes it has some benefits and yes it has its drawbacks. I observe it as not needed but that is my opinion and there are many facts for the arguement either way.

Here is an experiment kathy. Praying God to show himself to you would be pointless because you "know" he exists and a skeptical person praying god to give him proof is wrong because it is testing god. So devoute your prayers to having God give the skeptical people proof so they can see his love and know of his existance. Keep doing so everyday and lets see if you will stop before "he" provides us with valid tangible evidence. I bet you either won't start and if you do I think it is a safe bet to say you will stop before there is any evidence. ;)

[Ryokan]

Originally posted by Palimpsest
Blessed are the cheesemakers?

I believe he really meant all producers of dairy products.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Matthew 5 - The Beatitudes
11"Blessed are you when people insult you,..." Suddenly I realize that trying to engage you intellectually is folly. For you to use your brain is a near occasion of sin. You are only interested in the giving and receiving of blessing. Toward that end, in Jesus' name and by his beatitude, receive this blessing...

You are dumber than a dead two year old mule.

[Ipecac]

Reading Kathy's posts has really made me sad. Someone took advantage of this fragile, hurting, confused woman and brainwashed the crap out of her. She's not answering like a rational human being but someone who has been indoctrinated into a cult. Her Maranatha avatar speaks volumes. :(

[Atlas]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Reading Kathy's posts has really made me sad. Someone took advantage of this fragile, hurting, confused woman and brainwashed the crap out of her. She's not answering like a rational human being but someone who has been indoctrinated into a cult. Her Maranatha avatar speaks volumes. :( I felt the same way. What is weird though is she comes here in the guise of a stumbling block. She is a troll. A sincere troll perhaps, but a troll just the same.

We have tried to explain that we appreciate logic, evidence and proof. She returns with: Science leads people astray but Jesus loves me, this I know. In so doing she alienates. She talks up hell like we're children asking for ghost stories. It's all very insulting, but she might believe that we are blessed by her insults - her beatitude list said as much.

It would be good for her to stay. Time opens the eyes of those engaged in blind Christianity. But how do you reach her. She's impervious to rational thought. But she has shown a sensitivity to insults. When she insults us with her thoughtless gibble we should beatitudinally bless her with insults right back. Let's think of it as an experiment in behaviorism.

[Taffer]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Seems our society has forgotten or just gotten way of track from what true values are. Why? God ordained marriage and the family structure too, but look around at the divorce rate. It's all because people leave Him out of their lives.

This is a post hoc (http://www.jrefwiki.org/wiki/index.php?title=Post_Hoc_Ergo_Propter_Hoc) logical fallacy.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Atlas
Suddenly I realize that trying to engage you intellectually is folly. For you to use your brain is a near occasion of sin. You are only interested in the giving and receiving of blessing. Toward that end, in Jesus' name and by his beatitude, receive this blessing...

You are dumber than a dead two year old mule. Save the insults for Flame Wars. In here, keep it courteous please.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
Save the insults for Flame Wars. In here, keep it courteous please. I knew this was close to the edge. But I was responding directly to an excerpted quote she made on the beatitudes. I explained my reasoning a few posts back in a response to an Ipecac post.

I admit kurious_kathy's responses affect me more than 1inChrist's ever did. I feel she is insulting us. She quoted the beatitude saying that we should all feel blessed by insults. It was the perfect moment to return to her a childish retort couched in the sweetness of a blessing. It's what we used to yell at each other on the playground. Hey, unless you become as little children... and all that....

If it was inappropriate in the circumstance I stand open to rebuke and correction. I thought the comment fit the moment.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
He died but He rose again. Jesus is alive. Truly Allah Most High forbade the earth to consume the bodies of Prophets. Therefore the Prophet of Allah is alive and sustained! * (http://www.abc.se/~m9783/o/prb_e.html) Seems many just don't care about what's good and right. Where do you think morality stems from? Christianity. Thus, by setting God's pleasure as the objective of man's life, Islam has furnished the highest possible standard of morality. * (http://www.iiie.net/Brochures/Brochure-06.html)Seems our society has forgotten or just gotten way of track from what true values are. Why? God ordained marriage and the family structure too, but look around at the divorce rate. It's all because people leave Him out of their lives.In today’s modern life, values have turned upside down, family life, that was always the very heart of society is attacked just as much as many other handed-down traditions... It is the firm structure of Islamic family life based on the following four fundamentals that makes morals values so enduring and enables them to outlive Western practices. * (http://www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/spot_full_story.asp?service_id=747) He still works miracles too. I know because I am one. The Koran is a living miracle in itself; I let it work its miracle in my life.* (http://www.geocities.com/embracing_islam/maryam.html)The fact that I am here sharing this with you is more than I would have thought possible.
God is still there just waiting for us to invite Him into our lives. It's a real loving relationship with Him, not just words, Life!! I know Islam is life, not a way of life but life itself. * (http://www.islamfortoday.com/farrell.htm)

[ceo_esq]

Man, Islam totally copied Christianity.

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Atlas
I knew this was close to the edge. But I was responding directly to an excerpted quote she made on the beatitudes. I explained my reasoning a few posts back in a response to an Ipecac post.

I admit kurious_kathy's responses affect me more than 1inChrist's ever did. I feel she is insulting us. She quoted the beatitude saying that we should all feel blessed by insults. It was the perfect moment to return to her a childish retort couched in the sweetness of a blessing. It's what we used to yell at each other on the playground. Hey, unless you become as little children... and all that....

If it was inappropriate in the circumstance I stand open to rebuke and correction. I thought the comment fit the moment. Ahh, just touch gloves and keep it clean.

[clarsct]

Hmmm.

Been lurking a bit.

Kathy: Have you read the Bible? I know you quote often, but have you read it, cover to cover?


I have noted that you have a tendency to omit the answers to certain questions. Is it because these questions make you uncomfortable? Why?

Is it possible that you haven't been taught the answers to these questions yet? The confusion you are feeling, the free fall that could come from thinking in certain directions.....does this apply to you?

Or am I way off base? It just seems that you ignore anything that doesn't fit within a proscribed world view. Answer our questions, all of them. You owe it to yourself to fully examine a viewpoint that is so life changing for you.

I am not saying that you must be atheist. I happen to be so, but it isn't necessary. Just take some time with yourself and be objective. Don't let your emotions run wild, but instead approach the subject with a serious and disciplined mind. As someone pointed out, this is a very important part of your life, with many ramifications. Much more important than say, finances. Would you invest in a broker on trust alone?

Search for substance. WIth substance comes truth. With truth comes peace.

You do not have to live in fear of pleasing a priest whose standards are always one step beyond what is mortal. You do not always have to be punished.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Reading Kathy's posts has really made me sad. Someone took advantage of this fragile, hurting, confused woman and brainwashed the crap out of her. She's not answering like a rational human being but someone who has been indoctrinated into a cult. Her Maranatha avatar speaks volumes. :( So she likes peanut butter. What's wrong with that?

http://www.nspiredfoods.com/img/maranatha/lgproduct.jpg

[Ceritus]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Reading Kathy's posts has really made me sad. Someone took advantage of this fragile, hurting, confused woman and brainwashed the crap out of her. She's not answering like a rational human being but someone who has been indoctrinated into a cult. Her Maranatha avatar speaks volumes. :(


did a search on www.ask.com to see what maranatha was and the first description was

Maranatha is a campus ministry teaching basic Christian doctrine and using tactics similar to those of mind-control groups to recruit and subdue members 2. With the discovery of Maranatha, the issue no longer was black-and-white, cult-or-Christian.


Wow, I did some more digging and found this! http://www.nanaimochurch.com/mission.htm

If you dont want to click the link
Our Purpose
Exaltation:
loving God with all we've got.

Evangelism:
loving our neighbors by introducing them to Jesus.

Edification:
loving one another until we become all that God wants.

Extension:
loving our world by multiplying leaders and churches.



Our Plan
Find:
build authentic relationships with unbelieving people.

Tell:
share what you know about Christ with them.

Bring:
bring them to a weekend service which is designed to be visitor-friendly.

Include:
include them in a Home Group for friendship and spiritual growth.

Instruct:
bring them to classes for Bible teaching.

Invest:
help them invest their time, talents and treasure according to God's unique design for their lives.

Initiate:
start the process over by finding a friend.



Our Personality
Prayer:
we pray first!

Relationships:
we believe that loving God and loving people sums up the Christian life.

Authenticity:
we are open, honest and real.

Simplicity:
we stay centered on Jesus Christ and what He has called us to do.

Excellence:
we do our best for God.

Devotion:
we are wholehearted Christians.

Teamwork:
we value each person's gifts and participation.

Fun:
we enjoy following Jesus!


She is literally trying to complete the "mission".

The more I read about it the more it depresses me to think that some people can be so overwhelmed by lies they can no longer understand what is real and what is fiction. However Kathy I am an unbelieving person and if you live near oklahoma I would be happy to go to one of these weekend services with you and your husband, if they allow questions ofcourse. But not this weekend I am headed to MS.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by Ceritus
Maranatha is a campus ministry teaching basic Christian doctrine... That's debatable. Here's what other evangelical Christians have to say about them.From our examination of MCM materials and communication with both former and current members, we, first of all, could not detect a complete system of theology. There were some essential areas of theology for which we could find little or no teaching. Second, we discovered what we perceived to be a number of doctrinal and methodological problems...

All too frequently, the materials present teachings based on arbitrary allegorization, decontextualization, isogetical interpretation, and unsubstantiated premises. Apart from the issue of a proper interpretation and use of Scripture, we are concerned that a lack of adherence to objective hermeneutical principles could provide the potential for the elevation of personal "revelation" to a place equal to, if not superior to, the Word of God.

We have yet to see in MCM materials or receive from MCM any definitive presentation or explanation of their doctrine of the Trinity. Although MCM has now affirmed its agreement with the Lausanne Covenant (i.e., belief -in one eternal God, Creator and Lord of the world, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ."), they still have not clarified to us [...] their understanding of that statement...

It is our opinion that MCM has an authoritarian orientation with potential negative consequences for members. It has been reported that leaders have used personal "revelation" from God to exert strong influence over the decisions of individual members decisions regarding their academic careers, their spiritual life, and their personal affairs. -Former members have indicated that they were discouraged from raising questions or exhibiting dissent. They have reported that those who questioned the hierarchy were said to have a "spirit of rebellion." Less than total commitment to the goals of the leadership was sometimes interpreted as spiritual weakness or the result of "demonic" influence...

It is our observation that even Christian parents have expressed more than a little concern about MCM's impact on the personalities and behavior patterns of their sons and daughters...

Finally, we understand that MCM does not publish a yearly audited financial report. ...

Until we have clearer understanding of the changes which MCM claims are being implemented and until we see more discernible evidence of change in the lives of people being impacted by MCM, we would not recommend this organization to anyone.

[Ceritus]

Where did you get that quote from out of curiosity.

[Dr Adequate]

Link (http://www.rickross.com/reference/maranatha/maranatha11.html)

Lots more about Maranatha on this site.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by kurious kathy
Look at all the lives that Jesus has changed! People are not the same when they come to faith in Christ. How do you explain that? For example: Inquiries were coming in from parents worried that their children had unwittingly become part of a cult. They reported that their sons and daughters had undergone radical personality changes. Typically, their grades were failing, and they were giving Maranatha large sums of money that had been earmarked for education. Some were refusing medical and dental treatment, believing it demonstrated a lack of faith. Members told parents who questioned Maranatha that they were being used by the devil.
* (http://www.rickross.com/reference/maranatha/maranatha3.html)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Ignorance to me is not being open to ask? Lives are changed everyday because of the gospel. It's not just words. The change happens from the inside out. The explaination is Jesus saves and restores broken lives.
Kathy, every religion there has ever been has changed the lives of its adherents. But I bet you wouldnt believe that each of these religion has just as much claim to truthfulness as Christianity.

Peoples lives are changed not because their religion is true, but really simple and mundane reasons, such as the basic fact that if you change your basic convictions you will change your lifestyle according to those convictions. And perhaps, even more compelling, people change because of a conscious effort to make a change (I would say religion serves as a model of what people strive to achieve, but the effort to change is self-motivated).

[Dubium]

What changed my life the most was atheism. Left all the fear behind. Left the judgement and condemnation and stupid theories and stupid contradictions and stupid rules behind. I am free. And it has nothing to do with jesus.

[Ipecac]

When I was in college, I was invited to a "lecture" by a cute classmate. I was trying to be as academically active as I could and so accepted. The lecture turned out to be a Maranatha service. There was no lecture, only a sermon, singing and a bunch of college age kids screaming in anguish at their sinful lives. I watched the lovely, very nice, young woman I came with scream in horror and then faint at the consideration of how "sinful" she was. It was an appalling display of mind control.

I was a Christian at the time and it still freaked me out.

[kurious_kathy]

We live by faith not by sight. Brain washing has nothin to do with it. People are made up of mind, body, and soul. The soul is empty without God. But I guess a professing atheist could never understand that one? Maybe that's why we are told 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."[b]
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."[c]
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."[d]

Jesus has made Himself known to me and He is the real thing! All I will ever need is in Him. I have no more emptiness because He is satisfying my soul. Never to hunger or thirst again. This love makes us free is all I can tell you!

[Z]

Kathy, maybe you missed my earlier question; let me copy it for your convenience:


Kathy, let me ask a series of questions, patiently, one at a time, and you answer, to the best of your ability, based on your understanding of the Word.

First: Is God absolutely omniscient? To be precise, does God see, hear, and know absolutely everything there is to be known, past, present, and future? Does God know everything in every person's heart and mind completely? Does God know every choice that every thing will ever make?

Please answer that, and I will present my next question.

The goal, in this case, is to simply attempt to grasp your understanding of the nature of God.

Thanks.

As to your post above, it is also my belief that a person is made up of body, mind, and spirit; and if any part is neglected, the whole is not in total health.

You appear, at this point, to be neglecting the mind. I'm not saying that you're wrong to believe in God; but the vast ignorance you've demonstrated shows that you are neglecting the intellect. It is not sufficient to just 'believe in God' and stop thinking entirely. God gave you an intellect and the ability to critically think - He wants you to use your gifts, not turn into a sycophantic brain-dead follower.

But I digress. Please, answer the question I have presented.

Thank you.

[Ipecac]

Kathy, your responses speak to your being brainwashed. More platitudes, more scripture, not responding to the least question, not one iota of independent thought. Very sad.

[Palimpsest]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Maybe that's why we are told 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Do Not Be Yoked With Unbelievers


Yeah... I believe those verses were used to justify ghettos in the Middle Ages (instituted by the Catholic Church); also to forbid interfaith marriages.

What do you think, Kathy? Are you okay with ghettos and segregation?

[Disco]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
We live by faith not by sight. Brain washing has nothin to do with it. People are made up of mind, body, and soul. The soul is empty without God.

[snip]

Jesus has made Himself known to me and He is the real thing! All I will ever need is in Him. I have no more emptiness because He is satisfying my soul. Never to hunger or thirst again. This love makes us free is all I can tell you!

This, coupled with the lack of response to my last question, has me very concerned for you, Kathy. Did you look at any of the info provided by other posters regarding your sect? It sounds very scary, if you ask me.

Tell me, please, do you have good contact with your blood family? Are they also involved with this group, or is this group trying to seperate you from your family? Are any of your family concerned about your new found faith?

MHB

[Dubium]

Cult expert Rick Ross has these (http://www.rickross.com/groups/maranatha.html) articles about Maranatha on his website. Kathy, you may wish to read some of them.

[sackett]

Originally posted by Atlas
...I stand open to rebuke and correction....

You didn’t do anything wrong. You’re entitled to speak your mind, here and elsewhere. Saint Katherine of the Flying Spittle got on your nerves and you showed it.

However, I think you were rather too hard on mules. Granted that a dead mule is a pretty dumb object, but live ones are intelligent, versatile animals. Yes, they’re difficult to handle; yes, they’ll run away and hide as cleverly as a weasel; yes, they’ll kick you suddenly after years of patient waiting; all true.

But at least they’ve never been Christianized.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Kathy, maybe you missed my earlier question; let me copy it for your convenience:



As to your post above, it is also my belief that a person is made up of body, mind, and spirit; and if any part is neglected, the whole is not in total health.

You appear, at this point, to be neglecting the mind. I'm not saying that you're wrong to believe in God; but the vast ignorance you've demonstrated shows that you are neglecting the intellect. It is not sufficient to just 'believe in God' and stop thinking entirely. God gave you an intellect and the ability to critically think - He wants you to use your gifts, not turn into a sycophantic brain-dead follower.

But I digress. Please, answer the question I have presented.

Thank you.
Just because I have chosen to live my life learning to walk by the spirit, does not mean I don't use my brain. Let's make a contrast: Fruits of the Spirit Vs. Deeds of the Flesh
Galatians 5:16-26 (New International Version)
Life by the Spirit
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Tell me, where do you see yourself? I myself turned from serving my flesh and decided to follow Christ. Now becoming whole in Christ. Made Holy by His righteousness, not mine!

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Jesus has made Himself known to me and He is the real thing! All I will ever need is in Him. I have no more emptiness because He is satisfying my soul. Never to hunger or thirst again. This love makes us free is all I can tell you! There is no way to fully explain how my life changed. Alhamdulillah! I am so very glad that I am a Muslim. Islam is my life. Islam is the beat of my heart. Islam is the blood that courses through my veins. Islam is my strength. Islam is my life so wonderful and beautiful. Without Islam, I am nothing. * (http://www.islamfortoday.com/aminahassilmi1.htm) How do you account for the similarity between your testimony and Aminah's, given that you follow two different and mutually contradictory religions?

[Soapy Sam]

And I have been touched by HIS noodly appendage!
I have seen the light.
And the pasta.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
How do you account for the similarity between your testimony and Aminah's, given that you follow two different and mutually contradictory religions?
I don't know too much about the Muslim belief, but I do know they are believing in a false prophet. Look what they believe. In heaven they will have how many virgins? That's persuing the lust of the flesh if you ask me?

John 4:1-6
Test the Spirits
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I don't know too much about the Muslim belief, but I do know they are believing in a false prophet. Whereas the woman I quoted is an ex-Christian, and so knows about both beliefs. However, she has made what you call the "two-foot drop". She's thinking with her heart.

But she has come to a different conclusion from you.

We have to admit, therefore, that the heart is not an accurate guide to the truth, since it leads different people in opposite directions.John 4:1-6
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. Qur'aan 19:88
Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become Him to beget one! Muslims are required to reject the central tenet of Christianity --- the Incarnation --- yet their faith seems as true to them as yours does to you. Same "heart knowledge", different religion

[Ashles]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I don't know too much about the Muslim belief, but I do know they are believing in a false prophet.
But they know that you are the one believing in the false prophet.

Imagine how strongly you believe they are wrong. That's exactly how strongly many Muslims believe you are wrong.

Of course you know that they are incorrect in their beliefs. But similarly they know that you are wrong to think that.

Etc...

Bottom line - everyone always wants to believe that their beliefs are the right ones.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that Christians almost all happen to be born in Christian countries and families? And Muslims almost all happen to be born into Muslim countries and families?

Would you still be a Christian if you had been born in, say, Iran or Saudi Arabia?

And it might be more helpful if you would respond with your own thoughts and words instead of copying and pasting chunks of the Bible.
If you understand the points they are making then it would be more interesting to hear you explain those points yourself. Otherwise you must understand why people might think you have been brainwashed into merely repeating the opinions of others by rote.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Just because I have chosen to live my life learning to walk by the spirit, does not mean I don't use my brain.
Let's make a contrast: Fruits of the Spirit Vs. Deeds of the Flesh
And the fruit of the brain is: thought, idea, intellection, cerebration, mentation, cogitation, conception, consideration, construction, association, generalization, reasoning, logic, and even whimsy.

Don't tell us you use your brain and only present fruits of the spirit and flesh as proof. That's brainless. Show us you use your brain. For starters, answer Zaayrdragons question. Or anyone's. (I think you intentionally missed the point of Dr. Adequate's.)

Here's mine... you quoted this passage...2 Corinthians 6
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?
Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 ... What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? Do you even understand what this is saying? Or don't you really believe it? Most of your correspondents here are unbelievers. We are yoked together through our subscription and participation in this forum. And so are you. What's up with that?

[Ashles]

Originally posted by Atlas
Here's mine... you quoted this passage... Do you even understand what this is saying? Or don't you really believe it? Most of your correspondents here are unbelievers. We are yoked together through our subscription and participation in this forum. And so are you. What's up with that?
Maybe it's okay to be yoked with unbelievers if you are trying to convert them? I believe missionaries were quite supported by the church.

But presumably it's not okay to be 'yoked' with someone who won't convert.

But you wouldn't know until you communicated with them...

By which time you would have broken the instruction to not...

Wow, it's all confusing isn't it?

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Ashles
But they know that you are the one believing in the false prophet.

Imagine how strongly you believe they are wrong. That's exactly how strongly many Muslims believe you are wrong.

Of course you know that they are incorrect in their beliefs. But similarly they know that you are wrong to think that.

Etc...

Bottom line - everyone always wants to believe that their beliefs are the right ones.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that Christians almost all happen to be born in Christian countries and families? And Muslims almost all happen to be born into Muslim countries and families?

Would you still be a Christian if you had been born in, say, Iran or Saudi Arabia?

And it might be more helpful if you would respond with your own thoughts and words instead of copying and pasting chunks of the Bible.
If you understand the points they are making then it would be more interesting to hear you explain those points yourself. Otherwise you must understand why people might think you have been brainwashed into merely repeating the opinions of others by rote.

Look at the muslim history. They follow corrupt leaders!. I hate evil and what I have seen of the radical muslims appears to be evil! Not that God can't reach one of us right where we are. If God is in the heart, why are people being so cruel? I could never justify murdering people, can you? Just look at the wars. good vs. evil. There is no such thing as a Holy war. I still say it's a spiritual warfare whether you agree or not!
I think it's harder in the islamic culture to come to faith and preach the Gospel, but people are doing just that ,even now as we speak. We are called to preach the good news. I know I would be willing to lay my life down for Jesus if called to do so. I could never deny Him even if my life depended on it! People are still being put to death because of the Gospel , and It's not OK! Very EVIL
And if I had been born in a different country, I believe the Lord would have found me there too. All His sheep know his voice. The Gospel is also called the Gospel of peace. Why do you suppose that is?
Have you ever seen a movie called "Behind The Sun" it is a true story of a Muslim young man that came to faith while in college in the USA and when he went back to his country his own family wanted to kill him. Does that sound like love to you? I could never disown my own flesh and blood like that. Could You?
God is Love. I don't see much Love in the Muslim religion do you?
It reminds me of what is said in the beginning of Genesis about Ishmael. Genesis 16:9-16 (New International Version)
Then the angel of the LORD told her, "Go back to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count."
The angel of the LORD also said to her:
"You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the LORD has heard of your misery.
He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers."

She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: "You are the God who sees me," for she said, "I have now seen [c] the One who sees me." That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi [d] ; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Look at the muslim history. They follow corrupt leaders!Are you at all familiar with Christian history? Or current Christian leaders, for that matter?

[Psiload]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Look at the muslim history. They follow corrupt leaders!. I hate evil and what I have seen of the muslims appears to be evil! ***snip*** And christian history is sunshine and lollipops? :con2:

[Disco]

. I know I would be willing to lay my life down for Jesus if called to do so. I could never deny Him even if my life depended on it!

Kathy, I see from your profile you have 4 children.

Would you "lay down the life" of one of them, should Jesus ask you to?

If your answer is yes, (you don't have to post an answer here) please consider getting some help very soon. Call your family, or a counselor, someone not affiliated with your sect.

This kind of blind allegiance is not healthy.

MHB

[Z]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Just because I have chosen to live my life learning to walk by the spirit, does not mean I don't use my brain. Let's make a contrast: Fruits of the Spirit Vs. Deeds of the Flesh
Galatians 5:16-26 (New International Version)
Life by the Spirit
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Tell me, where do you see yourself? I myself turned from serving my flesh and decided to follow Christ. Now becoming whole in Christ. Made Holy by His righteousness, not mine!

OK, first, you didn't answer the question. Instead, you wasted a post on what you think are sinful acts - sexual immorality, witchcraft, hatred... Funny thing is, it seems no two Christians are unified on what constitutes many of these things. What, after all, is sexual immorality? Is it witches that are so hated in the Bible, or poisoners? And how can you with one sentance condemn hatred, yet in others demonstrate such open and clear hatred of those who don't share your beliefs?

Second, I've seen very little - almost none, in fact - evidence that you are using your brain for more than parsing data fed you by the religious party you've joined. Certainly, spouting off biblical verse to people who will more than happily tell you that the Bible is about as sound a source of information as a copy of The Christmas Carol is lacking in intellect. The Bible is rife with contradiction and inconsistancy, and its history is full of political maneuvering, creative edits, and outright reconstructions. To place faith in such a book - a book heavily recreated at so many points in history - is lacking intelligence.

Place faith in God, but don't blindly follow this mish-mash of conflicting ideologies.

Anyway, the most important thing (to me) is that you answer my question - and the subsequent questions I have for you - honestly based on your own Christian faith. So - for the third time - here it is:

Kathy, let me ask a series of questions, patiently, one at a time, and you answer, to the best of your ability, based on your understanding of the Word.

First: Is God absolutely omniscient? To be precise, does God see, hear, and know absolutely everything there is to be known, past, present, and future? Does God know everything in every person's heart and mind completely? Does God know every choice that every thing will ever make?

Please answer that, and I will present my next question.

The goal, in this case, is to simply attempt to grasp your understanding of the nature of God.

Thanks.

If you should fail to answer this, having asked a third time, I shall have no choice but to abandon this thread and declare you unwilling to discuss. I have no time to waste with those who will not think, whatsoever. I rarely bother with Iacchus for exactly this reason. I only bother with lifegazer because he DOES think. Poorly, but at least he tries, and at least he answers questions... to a point.

If it comes to that, I wish you well, and hope that it turns out well for you. If not, I look forward to an intelligent discussion on a point I hope you will not blindly miss in the glare of your faith.

Thank you.

[Z]

Originally posted by Psiload
And christian history is sunshine and lollipops? :con2:

Ah, but you see... those who instigated The Inquisition, The Crusades, and Nazi Germany weren't REALLY Christians... see?

In fact, any time someone commits evil they're not REALLY Christians.

It's the all-purpose out for people like Kathy.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
... I know I would be willing to lay my life down for Jesus if called to do so. I could never deny Him even if my life depended on it! ... Would you fly your plane into a tall building?

Do you need Bible quotes of God telling the Jews to slay everyone in a community, man, woman and child? God asks alot. It's good to know we need to fear you.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Ah, but you see... those who instigated The Inquisition, The Crusades, and Nazi Germany weren't REALLY Christians... see?

In fact, any time someone commits evil they're not REALLY Christians.

It's the all-purpose out for people like Kathy. And they weren't true Scotsmen.

And if it's not Scottish... It's crap!

[Psiload]

Originally posted by ooh_child
Kathy, I see from your profile you have 4 children.

Would you "lay down the life" of one of them, should Jesus ask you to?

If your answer is yes, (you don't have to post an answer here) please consider getting some help very soon. Call your family, or a counselor, someone not affiliated with your sect.

This kind of blind allegiance is not healthy.

MHB
Originally posted by kurious_kathy

Have you ever seen a movie called "Behind The Sun" it is a true story of a Muslim that came to faith while in college in the USA and when he went back to his country his own family wanted to kill him. Does that sound like love to you? I could never disown my own flesh and blood like that. Could You? Evil!!
I'd like to see Kathy's reaction if one of her children came home one day sporting black nail polish and mascara, and declaring his/her coming to the Wiccan faith.

I'm sure there'd be alot of rational, compassionate, non-judgemental discussion at the dinner table that night. :rolleyes:

[Ceritus]

Originally posted by Dubium
What changed my life the most was atheism. Left all the fear behind. Left the judgement and condemnation and stupid theories and stupid contradictions and stupid rules behind. I am free. And it has nothing to do with jesus.

I agree with you so full heartedly

[Ceritus]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

This statement alone disturbs me. I am not joking when I say there is a good possibility this could develop in a David Koresh kind of incident. If you take anything away with you when you leave the computer screen take this one suggestion. If at any time down the line a person in your congregation claims to have spoken to God and had received a reply asking for you to break human laws that could inflict any kind of harm on anyone believer or not please I beg of you please leave immediately and tell someone outside of your congregation. Perhaps tell a priest in a catholic church or a member of your family that is not part of your sect.
quote:

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Tell me, where do you see yourself? I myself turned from serving my flesh and decided to follow Christ. Now becoming whole in Christ. Made Holy by His righteousness, not mine!

As for this quote, I see myself serving my flesh and mind along with all the organs inside. I see my body as tool not of a lord but of my mind. I try to learn as much as I can and I also try to have as much fun as I can. I work many hours a day predicting the weather but on simple days like this I scour the internet for things to learn and base an opinion on. I know when I get off work tonight I am going to meet up with a "so far" interesting woman and I may or may not engage in "sins of the flesh" before I take my flight out tomorrow morning. I do not see orgies or same sex companions as wrong in any form. However I have so far not been able to be aroused by someone of the same sex therefore just because I do not think it is wrong does not mean I partake in it. As for orgies I have not been a part of one of these as well simply because the risk of gaining an STD becomes greater than when you just have intercourse when someone you know well. However this does not mean I will never partake in one but the appropriate scenario has not presented itself yet. If sometime down the line there were a group of couples I could trust to not sleep outside of the group and risk obtaining a STD I would gladly partake in one just for the experience.

You are probably wondering how I could share someone I love.... Well I have never considered someone I love my possession, this does not mean I "cheat" on anyone because many women have a problem with that and if I want to keep what I have going then what is the point of upsetting this person. Because of their need to not have me cheat on them I feel it is only appropriate she not do the same but if she called and simply asked me depending if I knew the person or not I would most likely be comfortable with it. If she agreed to no objection of sleeping with members of a confined group of people who were trustworthy enough and had the proper tests I would be more than happy to oblige.

I do not fear massive orgies or promiscuity because of repercussion from god but more from the consequences science have proven exists.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Look at the muslim history. They follow corrupt leaders!. I hate evil and what I have seen of the radical muslims appears to be evil! Not that God can't reach one of us right where we are. If God is in the heart, why are people being so cruel? I could never justify murdering people, can you? Just look at the wars. good vs. evil. There is no such thing as a Holy war."But in the cities that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzitess, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded." (Deut 21:16-17)The Gospel is also called the Gospel of peace. Why do you suppose that is? "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household." (Matt 10:34-36)Have you ever seen a movie called "Behind The Sun" it is a true story of a Muslim young man that came to faith while in college in the USA and when he went back to his country his own family wanted to kill him. Does that sound like love to you? I could never disown my own flesh and blood like that. Could You?
God is Love. I don't see much Love in the Muslim religion do you? "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die." (Deut 21:18-21)

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." (Deut 17:2-5 )

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deut 13:6-10)

[Ceritus]

2 Corinthians 6
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?
Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 ... What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

This is a very interesting quote from the bible. One without the other is somewhat impossible because the actions or objects described could not be distinguished if alone and never affected by its opposite. If everyone in the world believed the exact same things equally would there be the label of believer or non believer? How could you distinguish light without darkness. If everything was equally bright and darkness did not exist then there would be no way to understand what Light is. The same goes for darkness. It’s the no pleasure without pain concept.

This is where things get interesting, Good vs. Evil. Without evil there would be no good because what most people decide what is good is opposite of evil. There could be different levels of good I suppose based on ability. For example if everyone helped each other to their fullest potential, would the impaired people be considered evil simply because they do not have the ability to help other people as much as a very fit person that is not impaired? Without Evil your Christ would have never died on the cross and your happiness could have never existed right? Does this mean you are thankful for evil because it allowed you the chance to be happy in the religion you are in now? If there were no wickedness how would you define righteousness? According to the bible, if it were not for Satan in the form of a snake tempting Eve into eating the apple, than your joys and happiness would not exist in such explicit form because you would never have the sadness that helps you gauge how happy you are.

Do you believe God created evil or allowed it because he had the insight to know love could not exist without pain and hatred. If you have never hated or disliked anyone before, could you define love? Is the reason "God" created "Satan" because in his infinite wisdom he knew human beings could not understand his love for them without this necessary evil and also knew without creating this evil his creations could never love him in return? Could you understand that if the bible is correct and God is omnipotent and omniscient then everything is of his design and denying your hate anger fear despair or so called "sins of the flesh" you would never be able to develop the spiritual side quite as completely. That no matter what you do regardless if it is free will or not you are acting out gods plan? Look at this whole Katrina situation. Everyone who is suffering and looking at all that is lost makes us who are not affected directly enjoy our loved ones more for a brief time? Or reflect on how we have warm food a dry place to live?

There when I read

Corinthians 6
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?
Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15 ... What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

What righteousness and wickedness have in common is the reliance of each other to exist

The light can never be seen without darkness.

Believers and nonbelievers are necessary to do the work of god.

So I come to the conclusion if the bible is right God has to be cruel to you to be kind and you have to indulge in sin to know virtue. As skewed as it sounds there is no doubt God is Evil and Jesus needs Evil and you should worship Evil right?

If this is indeed true heaven and hell are the same because like I said many times before an eternity of anything would be torture.

I just no longer understand the logic behind any religion so far with the exception of the new court appointed "religion" atheism.

So if someone tells you to burn in hell kathy you should rejoice because without that kind of person kathy you couldn't do the works of god.

It all just seems so unlikley that there would be a being that needs both good and evil to seperate the believing from the unbelieving to distiguish between the wicked and the rightous to decide to punish or to please. It is a good thing I just follow what is real or I might go insane.

[Dubium]

God created evil, according to the bible. He created Satan and gave him the free will which led to his falling from grace. Why did God create Satan and allow him to fall? Was it for his own amusement? Sometimes I imagine that the world is a giant chess board. God is on one side, satan the other, and we are the pawns. There is no rational way to explain a being who created people who are doomed just because they are what he made them.

Oh, and who can supposedly be 'saved' because he carved off a bit of himself and gave it a really rough weekend to atone for us following our 'god-given' basic instincts.

If he didn't want people to have sex outside of marriage, he should have invented a way for creatures to procreate that doesn't feel so good. He should have made it impossible for us to love or want more than one person at a time.

If he didn't want us to drink alcohol, he shouldn't have given us the brains which would enable us to discover fermentation.

If he didn't want us to smoke, he shouldn't have created plant matters with addictive or hallucinogenic properties, or cells in our bodies that could become cancerous.

If he didn't want us to think he was a stupid, inconsiderate, narcissistic, meglomaniacal, dysfunctional moron, he shouldn't have enabled humanity to become infinitely more rational and compassionate than he apparently is, as portrayed by his followers.

I would never burn my kids for not worshipping me. Yet that is what we are supposed to believe god will do to us if we don't love and worshipping him. God - who created the pleasures of the flesh, and all the other so called sin.

Isn't it about time he had a good hard think and revised a few of his ideas? After all, he hasn't come up with any new ones for around 2000 years, and things have changed since Moses was a lad.

[clarsct]

Originally posted by Dubium
God created evil, according to the bible. He created Satan and gave him the free will which led to his falling from grace. Why did God create Satan and allow him to fall? Was it for his own amusement? Sometimes I imagine that the world is a giant chess board. God is on one side, satan the other, and we are the pawns. There is no rational way to explain a being who created people who are doomed just because they are what he made them.

Oh, and who can supposedly be 'saved' because he carved off a bit of himself and gave it a really rough weekend to atone for us following our 'god-given' basic instincts.

If he didn't want people to have sex outside of marriage, he should have invented a way for creatures to procreate that doesn't feel so good. He should have made it impossible for us to love or want more than one person at a time.

If he didn't want us to drink alcohol, he shouldn't have given us the brains which would enable us to discover fermentation.

If he didn't want us to smoke, he shouldn't have created plant matters with addictive or hallucinogenic properties, or cells in our bodies that could become cancerous.

If he didn't want us to think he was a stupid, inconsiderate, narcissistic, meglomaniacal, dysfunctional moron, he shouldn't have enabled humanity to become infinitely more rational and compassionate than he apparently is, as portrayed by his followers.

I would never burn my kids for not worshipping me. Yet that is what we are supposed to believe god will do to us if we don't love and worshipping him. God - who created the pleasures of the flesh, and all the other so called sin.

Isn't it about time he had a good hard think and revised a few of his ideas? After all, he hasn't come up with any new ones for around 2000 years, and things have changed since Moses was a lad.

You've fallen into the common misperception, my friend. It CANNOT be a chessboard, implicitly. It MUST be a rather elaborate game of solitaire.

If God set up the universe to try to fool me into not believing in him, then it is HIS fault if I am fooled, is it not?

[Ceritus]

If there is a heaven and hell a God and a Devil then I better have fun now while I still can, because atleast now I can experience the coexistance of Good and Evil..... This whole thing makes me giggle.

I would much rather spend my time helping our kind advance scientifically to make my life more comfortable down the line and add to the comfort of others. One day if we last long enough, we will have to move off this earth and spread elsewhere because we only have a couple billion years left here till the sun engulfs us.

And for those who were wondering, no sins of the flesh tonight :(
gettin some sleep and I'll be back later next week so stay tuned to read more of my rampant ramblings!

[Kopji]

Kathy is sort of an object lesson for a point I've mentioned before. Where would any religion be without faithful people like her? Religion does not grow and thrive on reasonableness, study, or rationalism... For all the discussion about history and philosophy we do on the forums, the great creaking machine we call 'Religion(TM)' is not fueled by logic, study, or method, it takes people who tap into some inner source of creativity and strength. This source is the thing that makes artists paint, musicians sing, writers write...

"Is that a such a bad thing?" might be hard to answer, but in this case I would say yes. 'Bad' religion harnesses these creative artistic qualities for a selfish purpose - to survive. Now I think there are 'good' religion's, even some forms of Christianity.

But for an artist, When something is known absolutely, without doubt, a journey ends and life stagnates. Living can be a kind of death.

There was a famous Quaker artist named Edward Hicks:
http://www.tfaoi.com/aa/2aa/2aa86.htm
He is particularly famous for one painting 'The Peaceable Kingdom'. He painted about 60 of them, all exactly the same subject. He was probably happy and religion played such a big part in his life, but I find the story of his artistic life so incredibly sad.

Religion can be that kind of prison. One which a person is happy to be there, and even encourage others to partake of the 'freedom'. But it is not freedom, it is a cage.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Dubium
[BIf he didn't want us to think he was a stupid, inconsiderate, narcissistic, meglomaniacal, dysfunctional moron, he shouldn't have enabled humanity to become infinitely more rational and compassionate than he apparently is, as portrayed by his followers.

. [/B] I am only going to comment on one of your statements to make you think about all those descriptive words you just used. Those describe Satan, not God!
There is a deceiver in this world, wake up!!

[cyborg]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I am only going to comment on one of your statements to make you think about all those descriptive words you just used. Those describe Satan, not God!

Question: does your god allow anything to occur which he doesn't want to occur occur?

If not then how exactly is anything your mythical Satan doing a bad thing if it's being done according to what your god wants?

If so then he's not all-powerful. Will + power = action.

There is a deceiver in this world, wake up!!

Indeed. Of course you've got the wrong deceiver.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[Beerina]

Let's assume there's a deceiver in this world. He's Satan, and he's really good at it.

Fair enough.

Why would God punish you for being fooled by a skilled trickster? Especially since he knew it was going to happen all along?

And what's the metaphysical importance on believing without proof? Why is that of value to a god? Why is that important? Am I the only one who finds that a bit funny of a thing to hold important in your creations? "I will punish you if you don't believe in me without proof!"


Whahuhuh?

[Robin]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Have you ever seen a movie called "Behind The Sun" it is a true story of a Muslim young man that came to faith while in college in the USA and when he went back to his country his own family wanted to kill him. Does that sound like love to you? I could never disown my own flesh and blood like that. Could You?
I knew a woman who became pregnant out of wedlock. She had a miscarriage and the complication were killing her. She made her way to her deeply Christian family's doorstep where her mother closed the door and left her to die on the step. (Luckily her cries were heard by the neighbors who called an ambulance). Does that sound like love to you? I could never disown my own flesh and blood like that, could you?

But then again I would never judge an entire religion by one story I heard. Would you?

[Robin]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I am only going to comment on one of your statements to make you think about all those descriptive words you just used. Those describe Satan, not God!
There is a deceiver in this world, wake up!!
So all those Bible quotes that others have pasted depicting God as an evil killer must have been written by Satan then?

Wake up! Either the Old Testament is not true or God urges the wholesale slaughter of men, women and children in His name.

Do you think it is right to kill children? The Bible says that God thinks so. So is the Bible right?

[Robin]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die." (Deut 21:18-21)

"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die." (Deut 17:2-5 )

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deut 13:6-10)
And don't forget:

Originially posted by Jesus Christ
Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

[Ashles]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I am only going to comment on one of your statements to make you think about all those descriptive words you just used. Those describe Satan, not God!
There is a deceiver in this world, wake up!!
Wow, what a well elaborated argument.

How would you respond if someone said "there is no God -you're deluding yourself. Wake up!!"

It would probably have about as much effect on you as your baseless assertion will on anyone here.

I honestly am digusted with whoever filled your head with all this racist (yes Kathy some of the things you've said are pretty much racist) nonsense.

If you think Christian leaders have not been corrupt then you are far beyond reason.

You pretend to talk about love, but only speak of division, judgement and fear.
If there is a God I fear he would weep at your arrogant judgemental, divisive, fearful, attitude.

[jan]

Originally posted by Kopji
But for an artist, When something is known absolutely, without doubt, a journey ends and life stagnates. Living can be a kind of death.

There was a famous Quaker artist named Edward Hicks:
http://www.tfaoi.com/aa/2aa/2aa86.htm
He is particularly famous for one painting 'The Peaceable Kingdom'. He painted about 60 of them, all exactly the same subject. He was probably happy and religion played such a big part in his life, but I find the story of his artistic life so incredibly sad.

I fail to see what is so particularly sad about Edward Hicks' work. He repeated a certain subject; that's not unheard of; such a phenomenon is also heard from heathen painters. Maybe, would Hicks have been an atheist, he would have painted other pictures; or perhaps not at all. But as far as I see, nothing precludes the possibility that those alternative pictures would have been as repetitious as the pictures he actually made.

Also, as far as I understood, those 60 peaceable kingdoms are not all completely alike. It's possible to attack the same subject again and again, solving completely different artistic problems. Much of western art consists of different versions of "young mother with baby". That doesn't mean that those pictures all look alike.

Comparing this with Robin's horror story four posts later: what's so wrong with Hicks' life and work?

[Dubium]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I am only going to comment on one of your statements to make you think about all those descriptive words you just used. Those describe Satan, not God! There is a deceiver in this world, wake up!!

I am awake, Kathy my friend. I woke up when I realised the Bible is NOT the word of GOD, that there IS NO GOD, and that there is NO POINT enslaving myself to a ridiculous 2000 year old doctrine written mostly by misogynists and wowsers, that denies me the right to HAVE FUN and JUST TO BE, using the bodily bits and the brain I was born with.

YOU are the deceived and the BIBLE is the deceiver.

Wake up Kathy!

Here endeth the lesson.

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I am only going to comment on one of your statements to make you think about all those descriptive words you just used. Those describe Satan, not God!
There is a deceiver in this world, wake up!!

So something I have never understood: How do you know the being you are worshiping is actually God (TM) and not just a powerful deceiver?

I have said it many times, if I were Satan, the first thing I would do would be to convince everyone I was God and that God was the deceiver. If me, a mere mortal, can figure that out, how can you be so sure that Satan himself hasn't?

[Dubium]

Good point. God seems to have a great deal of fun at our expense, and allow endless suffering. Perhaps he/she/it is the devil in disguise. Maybe the devil locked God in a cupboard in heaven and has been masquerading as God ever since. Come to think of it, that would explain a lot!

[FrankP]

That's exactly what the Gnostics taught -- that the Old Testament Yahweh isn't the true Supreme God after all, but a jumped up devil lording it over this world.

Luckily, Jesus came as a messenger from the proper God to put us all straight. And his Supreme God is much nicer and fluffier than grumpy old Yahweh. Only two people get summarily zapped in the NT, afaik (Acts 5:1-10).

How does this sound to you Kathy? Your teachers are instruments of Satan. How can you be sure they're not?

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by FrankP
That's exactly what the Gnostics taught -- that the Old Testament Yahweh isn't the true Supreme God after all, but a jumped up devil lording it over this world.

Luckily, Jesus came as a messenger from the proper God to put us all straight. And his Supreme God is much nicer and fluffier than grumpy old Yahweh. Only two people get summarily zapped in the NT, afaik (Acts 5:1-10).

How does this sound to you Kathy? Your teachers are instruments of Satan. How can you be sure they're not?

I usually like to suppose that there is a being with all of God's capabilities except that he would lose to God in thumbwrestling, and hence is not all-powerful, like God is. He is just mostly powerful.

A being like that could easily pass himself off as God, and mere mortals like us wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Before you suggest that God wouldn't allow it, note that even according to christian mythology (as espoused by Kathy), God allows someone to deceive us. So he apparently doesn't object all that much.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by FrankP
...How does this sound to you Kathy? Your teachers are instruments of Satan. How can you be sure they're not? The kurious one is treating us to 3 days of darkness, I guess. She should be able to answer your question straightaway if she returns. In one of her earliest posts she mentioned this...From here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1871016505#post1871016505) Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I know I am very straight forward about my belief but I am very concerned about this subject and have a strong personal conviction about it. You see I was so there before my turn around last November. I was one of the people that thought she had some kind of special gift, or phsycic ability. Only to find out I was being deceived by a presence named Joseph who told me he was my guardian angel? It only took a couple of days before God exposed this demon for the liar he was. ...

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Robin
I knew a woman who became pregnant out of wedlock. She had a miscarriage and the complication were killing her. She made her way to her deeply Christian family's doorstep where her mother closed the door and left her to die on the step. (Luckily her cries were heard by the neighbors who called an ambulance). Does that sound like love to you? I could never disown my own flesh and blood like that, could you?

But then again I would never judge an entire religion by one story I heard. Would you?

The greatest commandment God tells us is to love one another. I wish people would be able to remember that when things aren't perfect. And I know only too well how the people we love the most are sometimes the ones that hurt us the most. That is not what God wants, but it does happen. I think He wants us to know Him better so we can be more loving with eachother.
One thing I have learned through my own pain is that people will always let us down, but God never will. We must look to Him. He meets us right where we are. Sometimes the most painful things in life are the very things He uses to show us our need for Him.
I myself could never make it through even one day without Him.
I know my need for Gods love, do you?
And God is the only one that can judge anyone. We are not to play that game.
God looks to a heart that looks to Him, and we need to be open to our need for Him.
Mine heart was broke so many times by people and things He was and is the only one that turned it around.
God help us all to seek Him, and love eachother!

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Dubium
Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I am only going to comment on one of your statements to make you think about all those descriptive words you just used. Those describe Satan, not God! There is a deceiver in this world, wake up!!

I am awake, Kathy my friend. I woke up when I realised the Bible is NOT the word of GOD, that there IS NO GOD, and that there is NO POINT enslaving myself to a ridiculous 2000 year old doctrine written mostly by misogynists and wowsers, that denies me the right to HAVE FUN and JUST TO BE, using the bodily bits and the brain I was born with.

YOU are the deceived and the BIBLE is the deceiver.

Wake up Kathy!

Here endeth the lesson.

You are so deceived if you really believe that! The Bible is the infallible word of God, you just aren't trying to be open to Him. If you were, you would see and have faith yourself.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Guess you just don't want to try to know Him. I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave God out of their life? Closed minds are closed hearts!!

[Psiload]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
And God is the only one that can judge anyone. We are not to play that game.
earlier:

Posted by kurious_kathy
Look at the muslim history. They follow corrupt leaders!. I hate evil and what I have seen of the radical muslims appears to be evil!

The lesson for today....

Practice what you preach.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
... I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave God out of their life? ... It's a tough problem kathy. It's only been explained to you 10 times or so. Maybe it's because to imagine something you have to use your brain. I'll explain it one more time.

To a child a teddy bear gives the same emotional sustenance you say you get from your God. Even though the teddy bear is not really doing anything, the child does feel better holding the teddy bear close.

Coming in here waving your teddy bear looks foolish to us. After we tell you we don't believe in teddy bears it would be a sign of respect to try to reach us with your message another way. You don't do that. You continually trash the forum with your disrespect, like a common troll. 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Oh yah, I almost forgot....

Wake Up!

[kurious_kathy]

God is quite a bit bigger than a teddy bear guys!

Psalm 46:6-10 (New International Version)

6 Nations are in uproar, kingdoms fall;
he lifts his voice, the earth melts.

7 The LORD Almighty is with us;
the God of Jacob is our fortress.
Selah

8 Come and see the works of the LORD,
the desolations he has brought on the earth.

9 He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth;
he breaks the bow and shatters the spear,
he burns the shields [a] with fire.

10 "Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth."

When He returns, will you be ready?

[Dubium]

Whichever cult you're in, Kathy - it's done it's job well. You are brainwashed to the stage where I doubt any of us can reach you. I hope someone rescues you one day my dear. Maybe one of your kids or something.... or a relative. They must be worried about you surely.

Empathy from someone who's been there, Kathy, and hugs.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
When He returns, will you be ready? Can you beg the question? Logic Kathy. Look into it.

[Dogdoctor]

2 Corinthians 6
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.

Ok so when your pulling an ox cart down the road don't let them yoke a unbeliever next to you ( I never allow myself to be yoked to an unbeliever anyway)

For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common?

This doesn't make sense , they ARE both nouns

Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Obviously light and dark can't have fellowship since they aren't fellows.

15 ... What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
Well they may actually have a lot in common depending on the individuals.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
God is quite a bit bigger than a teddy bear guys!

Psalm 46:8 Come and see the works of the LORD,
the desolations he has brought on the earth.
I'll bet you like this quote cuz you think it's about you.

[Psiload]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
When He returns, will you be ready?

Wait, hold on... lemme grab a beer and some popcorn, and pull up a chair. OK, I'm ready...




I'm waiting. :D



All ready now. :)



Still sittin' here.:confused:



Ready as I'll ever be.:con2:



Any day now.:(




:slp:

[Ceritus]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
God is quite a bit bigger than a teddy bear guys!
When He returns, will you be ready?

Sure if he returns and can pass the JREF challenge that he is indeed the son of God than yep I'll be ready. If there is a person that just claims to be the son of god with no proof to back it up than sure I'll be ready to cut him down to size as well. If there ends up being a rapture and millions of people are just all of a sudden missing and then great earthquakes and flashes of light fill the sky then my beliefs may change who knows. But I am willing to bet everything I own and ever will own there will never be a Rapture of millions in an instance unless ofcourse you consider massive nuclear strikes and people vaporizing in the air a rapture. If that is the case the bets off ;)

[kurious_kathy]

Revelation 1
Prologue
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Greetings and doxology
4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty

Many others know the Bible is the true inspired word of God, why don't you?

[Kopji]

Originally posted by jan
I fail to see what is so particularly sad about Edward Hicks' work. He repeated a certain subject; that's not unheard of; such a phenomenon is also heard from heathen painters. Maybe, would Hicks have been an atheist, he would have painted other pictures; or perhaps not at all. But as far as I see, nothing precludes the possibility that those alternative pictures would have been as repetitious as the pictures he actually made.

Also, as far as I understood, those 60 peaceable kingdoms are not all completely alike. It's possible to attack the same subject again and again, solving completely different artistic problems. Much of western art consists of different versions of "young mother with baby". That doesn't mean that those pictures all look alike.

Comparing this with Robin's horror story four posts later: what's so wrong with Hicks' life and work?

Art was considered a worldly evil by his church at the time. The subject was chosen because it was acceptable.

[Kopji]

It is thought that Edward Hicks painted the theme of the Peaceable Kingdom as many as one hundred times. There are several possible reasons for his attachment to the subject, including his love of children and animals and his devotion to the Bible. A more complex explanation involved the fact that he was a Quaker minister, and Quakers disapproved of nonutilitarian art such as easel painting. However, because Hicks knew no other profitable trade and since Quaker ministers were not permitted salaries, he needed the income from his painting to support his large family. The Peaceable Kingdom, as a religious subject and a kind of visual sermon, perhaps helped Hicks to justify his vocation.
http://www.albrightknox.org/ArtStart/Hicks.html


Sorry, sad.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Revelation 1
Prologue
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Greetings and doxology
4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty

Many others know the Bible is the true inspired word of God, why don't you? "the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (Rev. 17:1-2 KJV)

[Kopji]

The end-times themes of the Book of Revelation are not unique to the Bible and they were not new at the time of its writing.

Search on
'eschatology'
'dead sea scrolls'
'The War Scroll'

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Atlas
I'll bet you like this quote cuz you think it's about you.
Actually it's all about Him! He is coming again and I can't wait.

Hurricane Katrina:
A sign of the Last Days?
By Greg Laurie


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: September 5, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes and global terrorism all cause us to wonder what on earth is happening. Sure, there has always been tragedy and cataclysmic events in our world, but, these days, it seems that a new crisis is exploding just as another is beginning to abate.

As we prepare to remember the horrific attack on American soil on 9-11, we may wonder could it be that all these things that are happening in our world today are actually signs of the times. Could these be reminders to us that Jesus Christ is coming back soon?

Consider the tsunami that struck Southeast Asia on Dec. 26 last year. It was caused by the fourth most powerful undersea earthquake on record. An earthquake so powerful it moved the entire island of Sumatra 100 feet to the southwest from its pre-quake position. Geologists said the tsunami was so powerful that it set the whole Earth to vibrating and it interfered with the Earth's rotation to the degree that time stopped for three microseconds.

According to the U.S. Geological Society, earthquakes are on the increase. For the past 50 years, every decade has increased in the number of earthquakes recorded. And not just minor ones, but "killer quakes" as well. And, this one has been one of the strongest ever, with more than 286,000 causalities in its wake. More will come.

And now in our own back yard, this tragic hurricane called Katrina may end up claiming thousands of lives as well.

Then there is the continuing threat of terrorism. The last attack happened in London, with threats of more to come.

When Jesus was asked what the signs of His return would be, He painted a picture of a world torn by strife and war; famine in the midst of plenty; the Earth rocked by great earthquakes and ravaged by pestilences. Jesus said: "And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven" (Luke 21:11, NKJV). Jesus indicates that natural disasters along with global conflict will begin to increase in frequency and intensity in concert with each other shortly before His return.

And it is as these "birth pains" begin to take place that Christians are to know their deliverance is near!

Jesus said "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:28, NKJV).

I had the opportunity to be a guest on "Larry King Live" in August, and a caller directed a question to me about what is happening in our world today. I was asked if we are, indeed, seeing signs of the times, predicted in the Bible, reminding us that the coming of Christ is near. I told her, "I believe that we are." And Larry pointedly said to me, "It's been 2005 years"! And I responded, "Yes, and we are 2005 years closer"! We have never been closer to the return of Jesus Christ to the Earth than we are right now. So, what are we to do?

Certainly, we want to do everything we can for the victims of this latest tragedy along the gulf coast of Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. You will find Christian churches and relief organizations like Samaritan's Purse, World Vision, and the Salvation Army leading the way. And, we all should offer them and others our prayerful and financial support.

Sometimes people accuse Christians of having their heads in the sand, oblivious to the problems of the world around us. As it is often stated, they are so "heavenly minded, they are no earthly good." Nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, the very opposite is the case. When you truly are "heavenly minded," you will be of the greatest earthly good. You will find those who have done the most for this world have been those who thought the most of the next one.

You will not see any atheist relief groups rushing to provide aid to our friends devastated by Katrina. There is no "Non-believer's Purse," or "Secular Vision" or "Atheists' Army" out there helping those in need. But there are thousands of Christian churches and para-church organizations that are already doing what they do best – offering help and hope to those in need.

Another thing we must consider as we see these signs of the times, or these "birth pains," is these are reminders to us that the return of Jesus is near and we need to be ready spiritually.

The Bible teaches that there is a generation of people who will not see death, but rather will meet the Lord in what is often referred to as the rapture of the Church.

Could we be that generation? Time will tell. But if I were you, I would pay careful attention to all that is happening – you will be glad that you did!

[Freakshow]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes and global terrorism all cause us to wonder what on earth is happening. Sure, there has always been tragedy and cataclysmic events in our world, but, these days, it seems that a new crisis is exploding just as another is beginning to abate.

Please present statistical evidence showing that the recent 30 years (approximately one generation) has had more hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, and global conflicts than any similar length time period of the past 2000 years.

[Kopji]

http://www.ldolphin.org/quakes2.html

CONCLUSION
A number of prophecy teachers say that a pronounced increase in frequency and intensity of earthquakes has occurred in the latter part of the twentieth century, a worldwide trend fulfilling a prophecy made by Jesus. Contrary to these prophecy teachers, no obvious trend is found indicating an abnormal increase in the frequency of large earthquakes during the last half of the twentieth century. Neither is there a noteworthy deficiency of earthquakes in the first half of the century. Graphical plots of global earthquake frequency indicate overall a decreasing frequency of earthquakes through the century. The decades of the 1970s, 80s and 90s experienced a deficit of larger earthquakes compared to earlier decades of the century. The 70s, 80s and 90s are precisely those decades that many prophecy teachers suppose, erroneously, show a dramatic surplus of larger earthquakes. Regional earthquake data from California and Japan also do not argue for increasing earthquake frequency in the latter decades of our century.

(This material is from a Christian creationist website.)


and this material is not:

linky (http://www.atheists.org/tn/goeringer.html)

In a peculiar way, the story of the most dreadful and chaotic set of events predicted in the Bible -- Armageddon and Final Judgment -- actually can become a form of solace, an anchor for certain people whose lives otherwise lack purpose, meaning and direction. The point is that people join apocalyptic movements because they provide something! You can feel empowered because you can claim to have a select knowledge, you’re one of the enlightened or blessed few who will survive or be raptured, you’re going to be an important player in this great eschatological drama. And when you enter this apocalyptic mindset, when you are on this mental trajectory, all of the other problems of everyday life suddenly become manageable or insignificant. There’s an excellent book on this which I recommend, it’s titled “Apocalypse: On the psychology of fundamentalism in America� by Charles Strozier, who is a psychotherapist and professor at John Jay College. He studied apocalyptic sects in New York City, and one of the things he found is that many of these people who embrace a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible have actually arrived at a kind of “blissed out� level where they feel they have solved many problems in their life.


Now THAT was prophetic.

[clarsct]

Oh, kathy. Oh dear.

You aren't really attempting to subvert the pain and suffering of others into some kind of endorsement for ANY god, are you?

In order to announce the second coming, many people must suffer horribly and die?

This is a new low for you. Repent, and embrace empathy for your fellow man. From whence does such hatred spring?

Who hurt you? Who did something that bad to you that you reject your fellow man? What gives you the right to say that their suffering was nothing more than a sign for you?

Oh, kathy. I fear for your humanity.

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Actually it's all about Him! He is coming again and I can't wait.
You're an amazing woman, kathy.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

(editted to correct quote)

[Taffer]

Many others know the Bible is the true inspired word of God, why don't you?

This is your argument? "Many others know"? How do you know they are right? Where is your proof that the Bible is the word of God?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Many others know the Bible is the true inspired word of God, why don't you? Many know that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and other fairy tales like God are not true, why not you?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by Taffer
This is your argument? "Many others know"? How do you know they are right? Where is your proof that the Bible is the word of God? Kathy doesn't exactly unerstand what cogent argumentation means. Logic is something to be used only when it suits her beliefs. You are unlikely to get answers to your questions. Beliefs are reselient to such logical queries. But keep asking them anyway.

BTW, many others "know" that the Koran is the word of God. Why doesn't Kathy?

"Many others" is an appeal to the gallery (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#populum) BTW, and it IS fallacious.

[Dr Adequate]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
You will not see any atheist relief groups rushing to provide aid to our friends devastated by Katrina. There is no "Non-believer's Purse," or "Secular Vision" or "Atheists' Army" out there helping those in need. This is a vicious and stupid lie.

It is vicious because it is motivated entirely by hatred of atheists, and it is stupid because it is so very easy to prove that it isn't true:

American Atheists (http://www.atheists.org/)
American Humanists (https://www.americanhumanist.org/secure/humanistcharities.php)
Atheists Online (http://www.atheists-online.com/)
Atheists United (http://atheistsunited.org/)
Center For Inquiry (https://secure.ga3.org/05/donate_to_help_katrina_victims)
Hands On Humanity (http://www.handsonhumanity.org)
Infidel Guy (http://www.infidelguy.com/)

This is not even to mention the countless individual atheists who have given money or time, nor the avowedly secular organisations such as the Red Cross which have also done their share.

Kathy, I don't know what your whacky religion gives you in return for disposing of decency and honesty, but whatever you got for them, it wasn't worth it.

[Z]

Ah, but that's EXACTLY what her religion gives her: free license to lie and misrepresent. After all, that's largely what the Bible teaches us... isn't it?

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by RandFan
Kathy doesn't exactly unerstand what cogent argumentation means. Logic is something to be used only when it suits her beliefs. You are unlikely to get answers to your questions. Beliefs are reselient to such logical queries. But keep asking them anyway.

BTW, many others "know" that the Koran is the word of God. Why doesn't Kathy?

"Many others" is an appeal to the gallery (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#populum) BTW, and it IS fallacious.
Mohammad is a false prophet, Jesus is the Messiah! He is the only one that saves us. And the logic is that we have been warned to test the deceiving spirits and false doctrines.
The Bible is Gods Holy Word and it's been proven many times over!http://www.dianawaring.com/ if you want to study a bit more on a scientific or historic point of view.

[Donks]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Mohammad is a false prophet
Assertion.
Jesus is the Messiah!
Assertion.
He is the only one that saves us.
Assertion.
And the logic is that we have been warned to test the deceiving spirits and false doctrines.
"Logic" does not mean what you think it means.
The Bible is Gods Holy Word and it's been proven many times over!
Evidence?
http://www.dianawaring.com/ if you want to study a bit more on a scientific or historic point of view.
You got anything I don't have to buy?

[ceo_esq]

Originally posted by Dr Adequate
This is a vicious and stupid lie.

It is vicious because it is motivated entirely by hatred of atheists, and it is stupid because it is so very easy to prove that it isn't true:

American Atheists (http://www.atheists.org/)
American Humanists (https://www.americanhumanist.org/secure/humanistcharities.php)
Atheists Online (http://www.atheists-online.com/)
Atheists United (http://atheistsunited.org/)
Center For Inquiry (https://secure.ga3.org/05/donate_to_help_katrina_victims)
Hands On Humanity (http://www.handsonhumanity.org)
Infidel Guy (http://www.infidelguy.com/)

This is not even to mention the countless individual atheists who have given money or time, nor the avowedly secular organisations such as the Red Cross which have also done their share.I, too, am skeptical of Kathy's claim of "no atheist relief groups", but in fairness, your post is not directly responsive to it. The organizations to which you refer are, strictly speaking, either not relief groups (American Atheists, American Humanist Association, Atheists Online, Center for Inquiry, Infidel Guy) or not atheist (Hands On Humanity, Red Cross).

The website of the American Humanist Association suggests that the group intends to establish a humanitarian affiliate (to be called Humanist Charities), but that such an entity does not exist at present.

[jjramsey]

Originally posted by ceo_esq
I, too, am skeptical of Kathy's claim of "no atheist relief groups", but in fairness, your post is not directly responsive to it. The organizations to which you refer are, strictly speaking, either not relief groups (American Atheists, American Humanist Association, Atheists Online, Center for Inquiry, Infidel Guy) or not atheist (Hands On Humanity, Red Cross).

There may be no atheist relief groups, but there are certainly relief groups that are not tied to any particular religion and are thus basically secular. The Red Cross is certainly one such group.

I think also that kurious_kathy is implying that atheists are selfish and so wouldn't be willing to engage in organized altruism, which is false.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by jjramsey
There may be no atheist relief groups, but there are certainly relief groups that are not tied to any particular religion and are thus basically secular. The Red Cross is certainly one such group.

I think also that kurious_kathy is implying that atheists are selfish and so wouldn't be willing to engage in organized altruism, which is false.
Actually I think atheists are just deceived people! A deceived person does not know they are being deceived. And even though I was never an athiest, I have been a deceived person in the past as well. My differences are that I believed too many of the other false teachings on a spiritual level. As a pagan I was too optomistic and dabbled with the occult. I found my openess had led me astray, and it wasn't OK.
I needed the word of God to get me into the light so I wasn't being swayed with every wind of doctrine! Such as these types Pantheism, Polytheism, and Atheism beliefs.
The word of God is called the sword of the spirit for a reason! When I came to faith I found I was on the wrong side of right and it hurt. I did not like seeing how I had made myself an enemy of God by believing too many lies and trapped by my sin! I saw my sin on that cross and repented, knowing I needed a savior! It's good to have this experience, it's called conviction. And after many tears asking God to forgive me, he has restored my life. This is something only He could do!

[Atlas]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Actually I think atheists are just deceived people! A deceived person does not know they are being deceived. And even though I was never an athiest, I have been a deceived person in the past as well. My differences are that I believed too many of the other false teachings on a spiritual level. As a pagan I was too optomistic and dabbled with the occult. I found my openess had led me astray, and it wasn't OK.
I needed the word of God to get me into the light so I wasn't being swayed with every wind of doctrine! Such as these types Pantheism, Polytheism, and Atheism beliefs.
The word of God is called the sword of the spirit for a reason! When I came to faith I found I was on the wrong side of right and it hurt. I did not like seeing how I had made myself an enemy of God by believing too many lies and trapped by my sin! I saw my sin on that cross and repented, knowing I needed a savior! It's good to have this experience, it's called conviction. And after many tears asking God to forgive me, he has restored my life. This is something only He could do! So you have said... over and over... your whole life have been filled with one fantasy after another... and you needed another fantasy to save you from the prior ones. We get it. You loved the Devil. Now you've given God a try. If He doesn't work out, you'll try the Goddess or the Great Turtle or maybe you'll become a Democrat. We get it. 12 months ago, if you had been here, you'd have driveled on about Astrology. We get it. Your soul is black and you must stand with Atheists so that it appears off-white. You can't give up the Devil in your life completely so you hang out with Godless Atheists. We get it. You are very much part of the Deceived. You don't believe in scripture. You'd rather be here with us.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Mohammad is a false prophet, Jesus is the Messiah! Says who? Just because you claim Jesus is some messiah doesn't make it any more so than those who profess that Mohammad is a prophet.

And the logic is that we have been warned to test the deceiving spirits and false doctrines. By this logic I must conclude that Christianity is bunk

The Bible is Gods Holy Word and it's been proven many times over! Demonstrably? If this is true then I'm sure you won't mind proving it again here?

http://www.dianawaring.com/ if you want to study a bit more on a scientific or historic point of view. I don't see anything of significance. Could you quote something?

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Atlas
So you have said... over and over... your whole life have been filled with one fantasy after another... and you needed another fantasy to save you from the prior ones. We get it. You loved the Devil. Now you've given God a try. If He doesn't work out, you'll try the Goddess or the Great Turtle or maybe you'll become a Democrat. We get it. 12 months ago, if you had been here, you'd have driveled on about Astrology. We get it. Your soul is black and you must stand with Atheists so that it appears off-white. You can't give up the Devil in your life completely so you hang out with Godless Atheists. We get it. You are very much part of the Deceived. You don't believe in scripture. You'd rather be here with us.
You don't get it. I am telling you that this one truth has turned my life around for the better. I never said anything like what you are perceiving. Do ya think maybe you might be in the dark? The truth sets us free, but many choose to stay blind by not believing in God! There is a truth that sets a man free, Free to be alive!
1 Corinthians 2:9-16 (New International Version)
However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"But we have the mind of Christ.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by RandFan
Says who? Just because you claim Jesus is some messiah doesn't make it any more so than those who profess that Mohammad is a prophet.

By this logic I must conclude that Christianity is bunk

Demonstrably? If this is true then I'm sure you won't mind proving it again here?

I don't see anything of significance. Could you quote something?

How about this... I know my redeemer lives!

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
A deceived person does not know they are being deceived. Yes, a great philosophical conundrum. How do we protect against being deceived. Maybe critical thinking and skepticism can help?

...I have been a deceived person in the past as well. How could you possibly know?

I needed the word of God to get me into the light so I wasn't being swayed with every wind of doctrine! The kind of wind that produced Baptists, Lutheran, Catholic, Prebeteryn, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Episcopalian, to name just a few.

The word of God is called the sword of the spirit for a reason! Yeah, marketing.

When I came to faith I found I was on the wrong side of right and it hurt. I did not like seeing how I had made myself an enemy of God by believing too many lies and trapped by my sin! I saw my sin on that cross and repented, knowing I needed a savior! It's good to have this experience, it's called conviction. And after many tears asking God to forgive me, he has restored my life. This is something only He could do! But there are similar stories in other religions. This is a very common tale in the Mormon Church that I grew up in.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
How about this... I know my redeemer lives! I used to say that. I got up in church once a month in a meeting called testimony meeting and bore my testimony that Jesus Christ lives and that he died for me. So what? How does one who is decieved find the truth? Muslims believe they have the truth. Sikhs believe they have the truth. Hindus believe they have the truth. So what?

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by RandFan
Yes, a great philosophical conundrum. How do we protect against being deceived. Maybe critical thinking and skepticism can help?

How could you possibly know?

The kind of wind that produced Baptists, Lutheran, Catholic, Prebeteryn, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Episcopalian, to name just a few.

Yeah, marketing.

But there are similar stories in other religions. This is a very common tale in the Mormon Church that I grew up in.

And Joseph Smith has corrupted that belief by adding the book of Mormon. God warned us not to add anything the the Holy word of God. You see how false prophets and teachers have been used against the faith. Jesus Christ is the same today and forever. One of the biggest deceptions Satan does is creep into the church and try to distort the word of God!

[Taffer]

Just for the hell of it, I'll post my question again, since you have not answered it. Perhaps you missed it.

How do you know that the Bible is the word of God? Please provide your reasoning/proof/evidence to this claim. If you can, then we can talk, but until then what you say is pointless because you have not shown any reason to trust what is in the Bible.

[Ipecac]

Talking to Kathy really is like talking to a living Chick Tract. More polite, of course, but with the lack of understanding and colored world view you'd expect.

[Taffer]

Originally posted by Ipecac
Talking to Kathy really is like talking to a living Chick Tract. More polite, of course, but with the lack of understanding and colored world view you'd expect.

That's because we don't understand. We are not enlightened. She has seen the True Path, and we are all Heathens in the Dark, refusing to see His True Love. ;)

[Z]

God warned us not to add anything the the Holy word of God.

Curious... was there also a proscription against taking anything away?

And considering the history of the books of the Bible, of the Apocryphal works, of the 50 gospels and the dozens (or was it hundreds) of Apocryphal writings... combined with the fact that every religious text that features God (in whatever form) claims to hold the Holy Word of God... it becomes pretty clear that we pitiful humans have NO WAY of knowing what the Holy Word of God is, after all.

So how can you tell, KK?

BTW - you never did answer my first question. You are therefore just another Bible-thumping, brainwashed cult member. You don't even have the intellect required to really consider what you're being fed.

Which isn't surprising, considering your past. You've just been passed off from one cult to another. You've gone from one stage of gullibility to the next, without pause for actual thought.

By the end of the decade, you'll probably have changed camps yet again.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
And Joseph Smith has corrupted that belief by adding the book of Mormon. The warning was for a book of revelations long before many Christian writings were narrowed down to make up what is now known as the Bible. However not all Bibles are the same.

God warned us not to add anything the Holy word of God. The warning was concerning the book of revelations which is very specific.

You see how false prophets and teachers have been used against the faith. I see how you have been indoctrinated.

Jesus Christ is the same today and forever. So not true. If you study the history of the many Christian churches you would know this is a silly and nonsensical bit of propaganda. Did you know that bathing was at one time considered a sin? "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is a recent invention. This is one of many such instances of how beliefs or philosophy or whatever is NOT the same as it was in the past.

One of the biggest deceptions Satan does is creep into the church and try to distort the word of God! What church? Baptists, Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Episcopalian? You let me know, 'k?

Oh, and if the Mormon stories have no proof of anything then why should your story have any meaning?

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by Taffer
Just for the hell of it, I'll post my question again, since you have not answered it. Perhaps you missed it.

How do you know that the Bible is the word of God? Please provide your reasoning/proof/evidence to this claim. If you can, then we can talk, but until then what you say is pointless because you have not shown any reason to trust what is in the Bible.
It is called the sword of the spirit for a reason. His spirit bears witness with ours. If we seek Him we will find Him! He proves Himself through His word. It is a supernatural experience that is real is the best way I know how to say it.

This is what Scripture says about a spirit filled life...

Galations 5:16-26....
Life by the Spirit
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by RandFan
The warning was for a book of revelations long before many Christian writings were narrowed down to make up what is now known as the Bible. However not all Bibles are the same.

The warning was concerning the book of revelations which is very specific.

I see how you have been indoctrinated.

So not true. If you study the history of the many Christian churches you would know this is a silly and nonsensical bit of propaganda. Did you know that bathing was at one time considered a sin? "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is a recent invention. This is one of many such instances of how beliefs or philosophy or whatever is NOT the same as it was in the past.

What church? Baptists, Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Methodist, Episcopalian? You let me know, 'k?

Oh, and if the Mormon stories have no proof of anything then why should your story have any meaning?

I am still very much a baby Christian. Jesus just turned me around to His truth last November more than I ever thought He could. Scripture is true and once we ask Him into our hearts we are able to go to Him for the answers. They are all in the word!
And I am just barely scratching the surface on knowing scripture well. But I know I now hunger and thirst for His righteiousness.
I am open to receive what I read is the only difference here.
I was blind but now I see and it's awesome! Jesus is Love!!

And as far as your question about what churches are vulnerable to Satans tactics of deception...all have to be on guard. The problem I believe is that some may be teaching that may not have a gift to teach. Doctrine can get a bit twisted if we aren't careful. You tell me? We are told not to take things out of context, but sometimes people aren't discerning what they are taught. At least thats what I have seen go wrong in some congregations.
God help us all to seek Him for the truth. He is true to His word, that I know in my heart, no question. The question is whether we are seeking to know Him through His word? And I do this daily at home with my Bible. All the answers are there.

The Armor of God ....Ephesians 6:10-20

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
I am still very much a baby Christian. Jesus just turned me around to His truth last November more than I ever thought He could. Scripture is true and once we ask Him into our hearts we are able to go to Him for the answers. They are all in the word!
And I am just barely scratching the surface on knowing scripture well. But I know I now hunger and thirst for His righteiousness.
I am open to receive what I read is the only difference here.
I was blind but now I see and it's awesome! Jesus is Love!!

And as far as your question about what churches are vulnerable to Satans tactics of deception...all have to be on guard. The problem I believe is that some may be teaching that may not have a gift to teach. Doctrine can get a bit twisted if we aren't careful. You tell me? We are told not to take things out of context, but sometimes people aren't discerning what they are taught. At least thats what I have seen go wrong in some congregations.
God help us all to seek Him for the truth. He is true to His word, that I know in my heart, no question. The question is whether we are seeking to know Him through His word? And I do this daily at home with my Bible. All the answers are there.

The Armor of God ....Ephesians 6:10-20

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. So no answers then? You are just going to pretend that I didn't ask you specific questions because you are a neophyte at the scriptures? You choose to use logic only when it suits your purpose and then claim naiveté when that logic is challenged? If your faith is based only on feelings then don't make logical arguments. And don't expect anyone here to buy such silly ideas because you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and many others also feel warm and fuzzy. I felt very warm and fuzzy as a Mormon. I paid my own way to go on a two year mission and gave up everything for Christ because of those feelings. Your feelings are not more significant than mine where then. Feelings are not proof of anything and why are your feelings more important that the feelings of someone who disagrees with you?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
If we seek Him we will find Him! A very well understood human trait. People who seek truth in the Mormon church find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth. They are prepared to die for it and many have died for it.

People who seek the truth in the Jehovah's Witness church find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth. They are prepared to die for it and many have died for it.

People who seek the truth in the Muslim religion find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth. They are prepared to die for it and many have died for it.

People who seek the truth in the Church of Scientology find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth.

It goes on and on. Cults, philosophies, etc., etc.

[kurious_kathy]

Originally posted by RandFan
A very well understood human trait. People who seek truth in the Mormon church find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth. They are prepared to die for it and many have died for it.

People who seek the truth in the Jehovah's Witness church find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth. They are prepared to die for it and many have died for it.

People who seek the truth in the Muslim religion find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth. They are prepared to die for it and many have died for it.

People who seek the truth in the Church of Scientology find it. They bear witness to it. They sacrifice for that truth.

It goes on and on. Cults, philosophies, etc., etc.

This is exactly the reason Jesus had so many references to the Kingdon of Heaven, such as...Luke 13:22-30
The Narrow Door
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last."

[The idea]

Originally posted by RandFan
People who seek the truth in the Church of Scientology find it.
Usually those people have to get search warrants first.

[RandFan]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
This is exactly the reason Jesus had so many references to the Kingdon of Heaven, such as...Luke 13:22-30
The Narrow Door
Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"
He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.'
"But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'
"Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'
"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'
"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last." And this means what? How does this address my point? So what if "Jesus" had so many "references"? You are just regurgitating rhetoric. It has no meaning except to those who believe it. All religions have similar rhetoric so why should we accept anything in the bible?

[RandFan]

Originally posted by The idea
Usually those people have to get search warrants first. :D

[Taffer]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
It is called the sword of the spirit for a reason. His spirit bears witness with ours. If we seek Him we will find Him! He proves Himself through His word. It is a supernatural experience that is real is the best way I know how to say it.

This is what Scripture says about a spirit filled life...

Galations 5:16-26....
Life by the Spirit
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

So not only do you not answer my question except with "you just feel it", you then use Bible versus to prove that the Bible can be trusted. This is fallicious circular reasoning.

[Ceritus]

I don't believe in heaven or hell. I do not believe in jesus or mohammed I do not believe in anything spiritual either. I do not believe in homepathy or astrology nor do I believe in the holy spirit the giver of life. I do not believe in anything that cannot either be proven or make logical sense. I base my beliefs soley in science. As far as I am concerned your bible goes against my science book and that tells me your bible is false and you are an enemy of reason and logic.

I dare you to convert me kathy and to do so you have to prove to me beyond a doubt that god exists through experimentation. Do your christ a favor and just shut up with all your bibble babble because if he really did exist at some point you make him look like a wretched charleton. If you a novice at christianity cannot prove it find an expert prefferably one you know so you two can use both your brains and try to come up with a reasonable experiment. Simply prove it without using the bible itself to justify itself. Because if I went out and killed someone and I said it was the right thing to do it doesn't mean jack *****. I for one am bored with trying to reason with you because it is like talking to a stained glass window. Educate yourself in your own religion profusely and then come argue with atheists because I doubt there is any atheist in the world that would buy your maranatha occultist jibber jabber.

[Taffer]

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1369/mrt27sv.jpg

:D

[Ragutis]

Kathy, do you understand that many here are just as concerned for your well-being as you sincerely appear to be for ours and that of our "souls"? You appear to have abandoned reason, neglected your intellect and cast away personal responsibility and accountability to anyone or anything other than J.C. and his pop...

Please read this carefully and pause to give this some thought:

I believe that you are an addict.

Please, don't believe that I am making light of you or your situation by using this analogy... I am being quite serious.

You appear to have an addictive personality and in tough times have gone from high to high looking for something to get you through the day... how lucky you must feel to have found a fix that'll keep you buzzed all the way to eternity. Like any drug or drink, Jesus makes you feel good and makes your troubles less painful... but you've reached the point where you depend on Scripture and prayer meetings rather than relying on yourself, your mind, your inner strength. I understand that you feel that you've betrayed yourself in the past, but who's more worthy of a second or third chance than your own self ? I won't try to break your faith, or take your God away from you... from what I'm seeing of you in your posts, I really believe you when you say you couldn't survive a day without Him, not in the frail shape you seem to be in psychologically... losing your faith right now would be as painful and torturous as any heroin addict going without a fix. But like that junkie, you still need help. If you won't listen to us "false teachers", "deceivers". and "tools of Satan", then PLEASE, PLEASE , PLEASE seek help from someone outside of your church or congregation, or whatever they call it... go to your local Catholic church and speak to the pastor,a resident priest or deacon... consult your physician... consult a psychiatrist... reach out to a family member... speak to a trusted and compassionate co-worker...anything. Just please get some help. Read some of that info posted before about Maranatha... something's definitely fishy, even scary there. It's not Jim Jones or David Koresh Xtianity, but it's disturbing enough.

Would you mind answering a couple of questions for me, so that I (and the rest) can try to understand you better?

1) How old are you? (Forgive me, it's impolite to ask a lady, but I hope you'll answer)

2) Does/do your husband, children, and other family members believe the WAY YOU DO and attend the same church?

3) Would you fill in some more details of your past for us? What specifically drove you to your anger with God? What specifically led you to test the occultic waters (a long time curiousity, Jehovah's Wiccans evangelizing Gaia door to door, a friend?) Could you flesh out your temptation by the deceitful angel and subsequent illumination through Christ? The way you've presented it so far it sounds like you heard one voice in your head one day and then began to hear a different voice the next... that doesn't help others' perception of your mental clarity

4) How did you get involved with Maranatha? Did someone take you there? (Who?) Did you just find yourself just seeking the nearest sanctuary from desperation? Did you find a flyer or pamphlet?

I really hope you'll seek some outside help, at least to give you a sense of perspective and to ground yourself a bit, and I hope that you'll take the time to answer my questions so that we may better understand you and your situation and thus hopefully communicate better.

Please, no scriptural quotations are necessary... my questions are pretty direct and firmly in the mundane world, I hope your answers will be as well.

I understand if you choose not to answer, or wish to limit the amount of detail you go into, just please let me know if you decline or omit by choice... you've passed on several others' questions and I'd just appreciate an acknowledgement of mine...thanks!

This may be an ambitious 2nd post, but I just feel compelled to try...

[kuroyume0161]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
You don't get it. I am telling you that this one truth has turned my life around for the better. I never said anything like what you are perceiving. Do ya think maybe you might be in the dark? The truth sets us free, but many choose to stay blind by not believing in God! There is a truth that sets a man free, Free to be alive!


Sure, I get it. You are telling many of us nothing new whatsoever. Oh one of great blindness.

How do I start this? My mother's family emigrated from Italy to the United States in the early 1900's. They are highly devout Roman Catholics - and still are (my grandparents are in their 80's and still believe). I was raised Roman Catholic, went to church and Sunday school. I almost became a Franciscan monk and stayed at a monastery for a weekend in a sort of 'fact-finding' 'mission' (sorry, the pun couldn't be restrained; I'll stuff it back into the crate!). ;) Seriously, by the age of 18, I had been a very devout Christian my entire life, read the Bible from cover to cover, and contemplated heavily becoming a priest (by the way, I graduated at the top of my class - so I'm not some loser bozo - might have lost a little (see below)). From there, I met other young Christians who were part of a more 'evangelical' RC organization. This led to 'prayer meetings' and 'speaking in tongues' (i.e.: incoherent babbling). At some point, my life fell apart. I had graduated but had no employment or further education opportunities. I moved from one bad thing to another. Almost ended up in prison with the help of my less-than-honest brother getting me entangled in a car theft that he and his friend had perpetrated (I had similar features - short, blonde). At some point, I entertained suicide and tried on several occasions (so much for 10 or 20 "real" quaaludes chased by beer).

So, to say, "You don't get it." or that none of us has ever been a 'true' believer is disingenuous. Do you really think that all atheists have always been atheists?

Continuing on, at this point I reevaluated my entire life. I decided that it was time to become more self-reliant and try other directions. One of the first was to study philosophy. This quickly, and for the better, led to studying science, starting with physics (which I had never had in high school). To make a long story somewhat shorter, today, I am a computer developer with my own house, three dogs, three horses, living a life that is directed and comfortable. Were it not for my 'Waking Up!!', I would assuredly be a name on a gravestone from over fifteen years ago.

You need to stop preaching to us and start listening.

ETA: And I've donated to the Red Cross for the Katrina relief effort. I am also donating 50% of sales likewise. If it weren't for the fact that I'm a couple thousand miles away from New Orleans, overly busy at staying above the flood waters myself (financially that is), and had any skills to provide other than 'that person who is in the way', I'd be there doing something. Equating 'atheist' with 'selfish' is a misnomer you'd better do a little more research on before making unfounded assumptions!

[Beerina]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Hurricane Katrina:
A sign of the Last Days?
By Greg Laurie

I'll pin this to my wall right next to the crackpot "The US's lax environmentalism caused this" and "See how the US's nature as a free economy caused the problems" essays. Hell, we have enough now we could do a college mini-course on "F*cked-up Worldviews as Exposed by Katrina Essays".

[Beerina]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Actually it's all about Him! He is coming again and I can't wait.


Here's an honest question: Let's suppose God throws gay people into Hell. Do you feel comfortable worshipping such a creature? If so, why?

[Beerina]

Originally posted by kurious_kathy
Actually I think atheists are just deceived people! A deceived person does not know they are being deceived.


And a god who would throw me into Hell because I was successfully deceived by a master deceiver he let deceive me is deserving of worship just why, again?

It's especially important to make this point since it's part of the theology that God doesn't want to give me absolute proof. So His behavior in throwing me into Hell is even more bizarre.

And even though I was never an athiest, I have been a deceived person in the past as well. My differences are that I believed too many of the other false teachings on a spiritual level. As a pagan I was too optomistic and dabbled with the occult. I found my openess had led me astray, and it wasn't OK.

Perhaps the occult isn't true, either?


I needed the word of God to get me into the light so I wasn't being swayed with every wind of doctrine! Such as these types Pantheism, Polytheism, and Atheism beliefs.

You realize that early forms of Judaism were polytheistic? Yaweh even had a girlfriend.

Or were these just things planted by the devil long before God got around to telling Moses what to write down as His Word? I.e. the Lucifer was busy causing people to write messed up stuff in anticipation of Yaweh coming along hundreds of years later and causing other people to write the correct stuff?

The word of God is called the sword of the spirit for a reason! When I came to faith I found I was on the wrong side of right and it hurt. I did not like seeing how I had made myself an enemy of God by believing too many lies

Isn't a god who would consider you an "enemy" for not believing in him when he refuses to give you absolute proof a bit odd? Why is there value in "belief without proof"? Punishment is meant to deter action, but unless the punishment is assured, people will disregard its threat. Ancient writings mixed among thousands of such is not "assurance".

Doesn't that make god a bit capricious?


and trapped by my sin! I saw my sin on that cross and repented, knowing I needed a savior! It's good to have this experience, it's called conviction. And after many tears asking God to forgive me, he has restored my life. This is something only He could do!

Forgiveness so you won't be punished? For things you can't actually be certain are even wrong because God doesn't give absolute proof?

[Beerina]

Delete double post

[Taffer]

The Great Flying Spaghetti Monsterism has no such logical fallacies. We are giving Proof of His Holy Existance every day when we sit down and give Thanks over our gift of most Holy Pasta! He asks nothing in return but our Love! We are truly Touched by His Noodly Appendage! Homage to Thee, Wonderous Noodle Monster! RAmen!

[kuroyume0161]

Don't forget that when you are at church services (i.e.: dinner), to consecrate the oh-so-holy 'body and blood' of the FSM. That would be, of course, garlic bread wafers and tomato-meat sauce! ;)

[Taffer]

Originally posted by kuroyume0161
Don't forget that when you are at church services (i.e.: dinner), to consecrate the oh-so-holy 'body and blood' of the FSM. That would be, of course, garlic bread wafers and tomato-meat sauce! ;)

Ahh, the holy Tomato-Meat Sauce and devine Garlic Bread! Indeed we are truly Touched to be given such heavenly gifts from Him! :D

[Ceritus]

It is now my firm belief that kathy just needs a good ravishing. Go buy a vibrator have your hubby get you off with it and come post right after maybe then you will have a clear mind to understand what we post!

[Taffer]

Originally posted by Ceritus
It is now my firm belief that kathy just needs a good ravishing. Go buy a vibrator have your hubby get you off with it and come post right after maybe then you will have a clear mind to understand what we post!

Oh yes, I agree! Sex solves lots of problems! :)

[kuroyume0161]

Kathy has become very quiet all of a sudden...

By the way, I went to services this evening, dining on the body and blood of our saviour and creator, the Almighty and Noodly FSM! He was very tasty.

RAmen and Al-Lasagne!

[Taffer]

Maybe she's actually thinking about what we've said? [/hopeful]

I'm glad to see you have joined the ranks and have seen the light and truth of the FSM. Each and every one of us must go to services on the Holy day Friday, to recieve His blessings of Body and Blood!

ETA: Great, now I crave pasta. Perhaps He has Touched me?

[Z]

Originally posted by Taffer
Maybe she's actually thinking about what we've said? [/hopeful]

I'm glad to see you have joined the ranks and have seen the light and truth of the FSM. Each and every one of us must go to services on the Holy day Friday, to recieve His blessings of Body and Blood!

ETA: Great, now I crave pasta. Perhaps He has Touched me?

Oh, you're TOUCHED, all right.

:D

I shall consume pasta this eve... Angel Hair, I think, with a nice white sauce of parmesian alfredo variety, black olives, mushrooms, bell peppers, shrimp... and some hearty cheesy Garlic bread to top of the whole of it.... Mmmmm... And a Killian's Irish Red. Ahhhhh....

Uhhhh...

Kathy, don't buy a vibrator; have your husband take you out for pasta. It's a much more orgasmic experience. :D

[Ceritus]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Kathy, don't buy a vibrator; have your husband take you out for pasta. It's a much more orgasmic experience. :D

How about use the vibrator while eating pasta! That should make for some interesting multi tasking.

[Taffer]

Originally posted by zaayrdragon
Oh, you're TOUCHED, all right.

:D


Touched in the head, maybe. :D

I shall consume pasta this eve... Angel Hair, I think, with a nice white sauce of parmesian alfredo variety, black olives, mushrooms, bell peppers, shrimp... and some hearty cheesy Garlic bread to top of the whole of it.... Mmmmm... And a Killian's Irish Red. Ahhhhh....

Sounds delicious, although personally I'd got for Oranjeboom.

[Atlas]

I believe Kathy has left the building.

From here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=1871056759#post1871056759) Originally posted by kurious_kathy
... Just don't feel I can relate to you guys at all! But I will leave you with this bit of scripture to cultivate maybe something in your own heart?...

[Taffer]

What a shame...

[Ceritus]

She probably pointed this site out to someone in her congragation and they said this site will lead her to hell or something. But maybe instead of admitting it she simply states that she just cannot "relate" to us probably out of fear of us having more fuel to say she is part of a cult.

[Ceritus]

You still have so many unanswered questions KK, I figured since you are back you may as well answer a few.

[kurious_kathy]

You still have so many unanswered questions KK, I figured since you are back you may as well answer a few. If it's not something vulgar I might try to answer. I definately don't like people who have perverted minds. Those comments were terrible and I wish people would have a little more respect and tact!

[kmortis]

If it's not something vulgar I might try to answer. I definately don't like people who have perverted minds. Those comments were terrible and I wish people would have a little more respect and tact!
Then show repect to us and don't dodge or patronize.

[kurious_kathy]

This is your argument? "Many others know"? How do you know they are right? Where is your proof that the Bible is the word of God?Well after my coming to faith, now being spiritually alive, I can apply many of those lessons and truths to my own life. I now see how before coming to faith I wasn't seeing things in the light of truth.

Also the using the acrominm MAPS, for manuscript evidence, acheological evidence, prophetic evidence and statistical probiblity. Those four areas, if you choose to investigate them, prove the bible is God's inspired word.

[kmortis]

Well after my coming to faith, now being spiritually alive, I can apply many of those lessons and truths to my own life. I now see how before coming to faith I wasn't seeing things in the light of truth.

Also the using the acrominm MAPS, for manuscript evidence, acheological evidence, prophetic evidence and statistical probiblity. Those four areas, if you choose to investigate them, prove the bible is God's inspired word.
You do realize that a goodly portion of us have researched that. I can trade Josh McDowell quotes with you. Please post YOUR evidence, please.

[Roadtoad]

You are so deceived if you really believe that! The Bible is the infallible word of God, you just aren't trying to be open to Him. If you were, you would see and have faith yourself.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Guess you just don't want to try to know Him. I can't imagine why anyone would want to leave God out of their life? Closed minds are closed hearts!!

And you wonder why people think of you as being smug and condescending.

[Dr Adequate]

Also the using the acrominm MAPS, for manuscript evidence, acheological evidence, prophetic evidence and statistical probiblity. Those four areas, if you choose to investigate them, prove the bible is God's inspired word. I have chosen to investigate these things. You are wrong. They do not prove that the Bible is God's inspired word.

Perhaps instead of merely proclaiming that they do, you'd like to post some evidence? I'd love to hear your argument from "statistical probability".

[clarsct]

Indeed.

Post some of this evidence, please. After all, isn't it your Christian Duty to try to bring us closer to Christ?

You wouldn't want to shirk your duty to God, now would you?

I wish to see some of this MAPS evidence. I am ...heh... curious to see it. Please post some of it here. I can't thank you enough for doing so.

And have a Merry Christmas!

[Ceinwyn]

Well after my coming to faith, now being spiritually alive, I can apply many of those lessons and truths to my own life. I now see how before coming to faith I wasn't seeing things in the light of truth.

Also the using the acrominm MAPS, for manuscript evidence, acheological evidence, prophetic evidence and statistical probiblity. Those four areas, if you choose to investigate them, prove the bible is God's inspired word.Oh honey, quit trolling already. Go find some other website who hasn't seen your obvious brand of tired nonsense.

[kurious_kathy]

Maybe she's actually thinking about what we've said? [/hopeful] Much of my time is spent taking care of my 3 teens at home and I sometimes get interrupted in my reading and being able to respond to people. And sometimes I just don't know what to say to people?
I am still very much a baby in my Christian walk. We have to learn to walk before we run, right? You guys overwelm me sometimes...Scripture and interpretation of it can take several years. When our theology meets with our intellect it starts becoming so much more clear. Be patient with me...God's not finished with me yet!!

[Patricio Elicer]

Also the using the acrominm MAPS, for manuscript evidence, acheological evidence, prophetic evidence and statistical probiblity. Those four areas, if you choose to investigate them, prove the bible is God's inspired word.Sorry to interrupt, but this caught my attention. Can you name just one fact or knowledge contained in the bible, that could be credited beyond doubt as something not available to the humans of the time it was written?. If there actually is such a thing, then the "God-inspired" hypothesis for the bible might be worth considering.

[kurious_kathy]

Sorry to interrupt, but this caught my attention. Can you name just one fact or knowledge contained in the bible, that could be credited beyond doubt as something not available to the humans of the time it was written?. If there actually is such a thing, then the "God-inspired" hypothesis for the bible might be worth considering.
What about all the prophecies pertaing to the day of the Lord that is still yet to come? The study of escatology is fascinating and definately worth learnig about if you ask me.
I am just now finishing a study from David Jeremiah on the book of Revelations which is very well done. He calls this study...Escape the Coming Night and I have not heard anyone teach it better yet. It is theory based on what hasn't happened yet..but it will. Does this have interest to you?

Also I will ask Cd if he has anymore "God inspired" hypothesis info on that than I do? We both new someone would ask about this one.

[Freakshow]

What about all the prophecies pertaing to the day of the Lord that is still yet to come? The study of escatology is fascinating and devinately worth learnig about. I am just now finishing a study from David Jermiah on the book of Revelations which is very well done. He calls this study...Escape the Coming Night and I have not heard anyone teach it better yet. It is theory based on what hasn't happened yet..but it will. Does this have interest to you? I find it very insightful myself!I myself have written lots of prophecies that are still yet to come. They haven't happened yet, but they will. Do you want to hear them?

[kurious_kathy]

I myself have written lots of prophecies that are still yet to come. They haven't happened yet, but they will. Do you want to hear them?Now why would I want to do that? I would be very leary that you are considering yourself phycic! I gave those guys up remember!!

[Freakshow]

Now why would I want to do that? I would be very leary that you are considering yourself phycic! I gave those guys up remember!!What is the difference between my prophecies and the prophecies you believe in? You are not allowed to use circular reasoning in your answer.

[Patricio Elicer]

It is theory based on what hasn't happened yet..but it will. Does this have interest to you?No, that's not my point of interest, sorry. My point is that if the bible is trully the word of God, or "inspired" by God, as many claim, then there should be something, a clue, that supports that notion. As I said, a single piece of information from the bible clearly not available to humans of the time it was written, would be enough to take the God hypothesis seriously. But, is there such information?, if so, what is it?

[Freakshow]

No, that's not my point of interest, sorry. My point is that if the bible is trully the word of God, or "inspired" by God, as many claim, then there should be something, a clue, that supports that notion. As I said, a single piece of information from the bible clearly not available to humans of the time it was written, would be enough to take the God hypothesis seriously. But, is there such information?, if so, what is it?I agree. Something like a precise measurement of the speed of light. Or saying "Someday, 'energy=mass time the speed of light squared', will be of great meaning to the people of earth. It will allow them to create new weapons, and new sources of energy." Or how about a detailed description of the planets in our solar system, and their moons? Why aren't there statements like that in the bible? (I know why; just wondering what KK thinks.)

[Patricio Elicer]

Or how about a detailed description of the planets in our solar system, and their moons? Why aren't there statements like that in the bible? Yes, there are many references to "creations" in the bible. "And God created the Earth, and God created the Sun", etc. Why not, "And God created the Earth along with eight other planets"?. Very simple for an omnipotent and omniscient God, isn't it?. One wonders.

[Freakshow]

Yes, there are many references to "creations" in the bible. "And God created the Earth, and God created the Sun", etc. Why not, "And God created the Earth along with eight other planets"?. Very simple for an omnipotent and omniscient God, isn't it?. One wonders.Yep. Should have been easy to talk about how many moons were orbiting each, and even give a brief description of each world.

Another...why wasn't the periodic table in the bible somewhere? Should not have been tough for the guy that invented atoms, right? ;)

[Patricio Elicer]

Yep. Should have been easy to talk about how many moons were orbiting each, and even give a brief description of each world.

Another...why wasn't the periodic table in the bible somewhere? Should not have been tough for the guy that invented atoms, right? ;)The counter argument to this is that the bible is not a scientific book, I've heard it many times. But my counter counter-argument is that there are scientific statements in the bible, but only those known to ancient people. Nothing new, nothing provocative.

[kurious_kathy]

What is the difference between my prophecies and the prophecies you believe in? You are not allowed to use circular reasoning in your answer.You are not God! Prophecies in the Bible are from God!! I think this is a pretty direct answer. I believe God.

[kurious_kathy]

No, that's not my point of interest, sorry. My point is that if the bible is trully the word of God, or "inspired" by God, as many claim, then there should be something, a clue, that supports that notion. As I said, a single piece of information from the bible clearly not available to humans of the time it was written, would be enough to take the God hypothesis seriously. But, is there such information?, if so, what is it?There is but I have to ask CD to obtain it for me. He is pretty scholared and knows where to go to get that info so I promise to follow it up with you as soon as CD is home. He works out of town 4 days of the week so it may take a few days.

[PixyMisa]

You are not God!
She's got you there. ;)

[TobiasTheViking]

You are not God
I, on the other hand, am.

So pray to me.

Or to Satan, same difference.

[Freakshow]

You are not God! Prophecies in the Bible are from God!! I think this is a pretty direct answer. I believe God.Did you miss this part of my post? You are not allowed to use circular reasoning in your answerDo you know what I meant by that?

[Solus]

*Yawn* I believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior... HAHA you all are going to hell heathen bastards. Didn't have to read the post to know the answer :D

[gypsynuke]

Kathy, evidence can't be your personal beliefs or an anecdote. Your circular reasoning is that freakshow is not a prophet because you don't believe him, but the bible's prophecies are true because you believe them. There is no thought or logic, it's just cause you said so. That's okay I guess, but it's definitely not a cogent argument.

I personally dismiss whatever you have to say because you assume morality comes from christianity. I am an athiest so I don't care about heaven or hell, and I would not cheat on my wife or kill my disobedient children, and I do usually help people. From what I infer from your posts, you were a very bad person and you later changed. Why can't you accept responsibility for your negative actions and feel good about your positive ones?

Kathy please stop trying to get converts. Most of the people here are very well versed in scripture. Some even went to seminary school. These things can cause people not to believe. Please read the whole bible, you might be surprised at what's printed there. If you admit that you are gullible and take any religious beliefs that come your way, what makes you believe this is any different? I hope you can find some peace Kathy.

[Spidey13]

Much of my time is spent taking care of my 3 teens at home and I sometimes get interrupted in my reading and being able to respond to people. And sometimes I just don't know what to say to people?
I am still very much a baby in my Christian walk. We have to learn to walk before we run, right? You guys overwelm me sometimes...Scripture and interpretation of it can take several years. When our theology meets with our intellect it starts becoming so much more clear. Be patient with me...God's not finished with me yet!!

Maybe you should wait until God is finished before coming here to teach. You admit yourself that you are new to this, but yet you come here where many people have much more knowledge than you and try to show them the error of their ways. You're like a third-grader trying to teach advanced calculus to college students. Why don't you go back and study the bible for a few more years (on your own; don't let anyone else tell you what certain passages mean) and then come back when you are fully equipped. You can't teach what you don't know.

Also, I know this has been pointed out to you before, but PLEASE learn how to use questions marks. As someone with a degree in English, I think your improper punctuation offends me more than anything about your religion does.

[Genesius]

What is the difference between my prophecies and the prophecies you believe in? You are not allowed to use circular reasoning in your answer.
You are not God! Prophecies in the Bible are from God!! I think this is a pretty direct answer. I believe God.
Can you prove Freakshow a)is not God, or b) is not inspired by God? Seems very prideful of you to declare as fact what is or is not from God.

Freakshow: I for one believe in you! Can I be your Pope? Pleeeeeze?

[bluess]

NO, NO, NO

Freakshow needs a High Priestess. I'm perfect for the job.

Step out of the way, before I smite you with my holy Freakshow-liness.

[kmortis]

Can you prove Freakshow a)is not God, or b) is not inspired by God? Seems very prideful of you to declare as fact what is or is not from God.

Freakshow: I for one believe in you! Can I be your Pope? Pleeeeeze?
If I may assist you, Freakshow....

[Genesius]

NO, NO, NO

Freakshow needs a High Priestess. I'm perfect for the job.

Step out of the way, before I smite you with my holy Freakshow-liness.

I'm more than willing to share the job. Having a Pope and a High Priestess certainly could make for some rockin' good times at services!

I believe it was the prophet George Carlin who said " 'Oh Come, All Ye Faithful' was the first song to successfully combine sex and religion. Sounds like one big mass orgasm."

[bluess]

I'm more than willing to share the job. Having a Pope and a High Priestess certainly could make for some rockin' good times at services!

I believe it was the prophet George Carlin who said " 'Oh Come, All Ye Faithful' was the first song to successfully combine sex and religion. Sounds like one big mass orgasm."

No one should say that I can't share. Ok, you be Pope and I'll be High Priestess. And then we can designate the masses to bring brownies and wine and what have you to the services.

And, in keeping with the perogatives of godhead, Freakshow hasn't responded to either of us, which means we're right and have been appropriately appointed.

Should we end this derail now?

[Genesius]

If I may assist you, Freakshow....
A Pope of Discordia! Cool!!

:j1::wow2::thanks


Hail Eris! Fnord!

[Freethinker]

When our theology meets with our intellect it starts becoming so much more clear.

I think most people here would agree with that statement.

[kmortis]

A Pope of Discordia! Cool!!

:j1::wow2::thanks


Hail Eris! Fnord!
Heh...yer welcome. If anyone else wants one (http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/popecard.html)

[Genesius]

Hmmm. . . just been looking over my credentials. So far in my life, I've been ordained by the ULC and UCTAA, and now a Discordian Pope.

So I guess that proves I really am Holier than Thou!

:D

(Except for Freakshow, of course. I know I am Lower than the Sacred Toejam that oozes from His footwear!)

[kmortis]

Hmmm. . . just been looking over my credentials. So far in my life, I've been ordained by the ULC and UCTAA, and now a Discordian Pope.

So I guess that proves I really am Holier than Thou!

:D

(Except for Freakshow, of course. I know I am Lower than the Sacred Toejam that oozes from His footwear!)
Have you been ordained in the Church of the Subgenius? It's the only religion that offers Eternal Salvation or triple your money back.

[TobiasTheViking]

*raises his hand in question*

Can i be the antichrist?

[bluess]

*raises his hand in question*

Can i be the antichrist?

Don't you mean the antiFreakshow?

[TobiasTheViking]

Don't you mean the antiFreakshow?
Sure, whatever turns you on. ;)

[Freakshow]

Dude, this rocks! I'm forming a cult!!!! :D

[Genesius]

Have you been ordained in the Church of the Subgenius? It's the only religion that offers Eternal Salvation or triple your money back.

Not yet. I've been meaning to, but been far too slack to get around to it.

[kmortis]

Dude, this rocks! I'm forming a cult!!!! :D
Freakshow,
Since Hawk one's band didn't go anywhere, I got this titanium cudgel just itching to bash some heads in dispence divine judgement. Can I help?

[bluess]

Dude, this rocks! I'm forming a cult!!!! :D

A sign! A sign!

Our sacrifices have been accepted!

Jubilation! Otherwise unacceptable expressions of joy and elation!

[Genesius]

Dude, this rocks! I'm forming a cult!!!! :D
Oh most Holy Freak, might your humble servant implore you to start a new thread, detailing the particulars of Your Worship? If I'm going to be your Pope, I need to know just how far I can go in fleecing the sheeple motivating Your people.

[Freakshow]

To all my loyal followers...

Thank you for your willingness to use violence to achieve our righteous mission. But that time will come later, my children. There are more important things that we must deal with at this time.

We must now turn to the most important part of any cult. The real reason that cults are formed. Their true purpose.

SEX

There will be an initiation orgy at my place Friday night. All cult members are welcome, but we must have at least as many women as men. I will need 4, just for myself. So please bring as many women as you can get signed up. There will be a reward for those that bring at least 2 women: You will be allowed to do my housework, and wash my car. Doing these jobs are of the highest honor, as it keeps your holy leader clean and free of the tainting influence of dirt and dust.

Who would like the job of going to the drug store to buy their entire condom supply? I will appoint that person to a special position within the cult. That post will be announced later, after I have thought of it.

But first things first: ORGY!!!!!!!!!

[kmortis]

To all my loyal followers...

Thank you for your willingness to use violence to achieve our righteous mission. But that time will come later, my children. There are more important things that we must deal with at this time.

We must now turn to the most important part of any cult. The real reason that cults are formed. Their true purpose.

SEX

There will be an initiation orgy at my place Friday night. All cult members are welcome, but we must have at least as many women as men. I will need 4, just for myself. So please bring as many women as you can get signed up. There will be a reward for those that bring at least 2 women: You will be allowed to do my housework, and wash my car. Doing these jobs are of the highest honor, as it keeps your holy leader clean and free of the tainting influence of dirt and dust.

Who would like the job of going to the drug store to buy their entire condom supply? I will appoint that person to a special position within the cult. That post will be announced later, after I have thought of it.

But first things first: ORGY!!!!!!!!!
So, can I use my Titanium Cudgle of Freakshow's Glory to club any guy who brings no women?

[Freakshow]

So, can I use my Titanium Cudgle of Freakshow's Glory to club any guy who brings no women?Yes, my child. Have fun.

[bluess]

Ahem...

High Priestess here.

Women need more men than the other way around, except for his holy Freakshow. He gets whatever he wants, cause, well, he's god, right? And he gets to change the rules whenever, unless the Pope and I reinterpret them. Cause that's our job.

And one of you has got to bring GOOD chocolate.

[kmortis]

Ahem...

High Priestess here.

Women need more men than the other way around, except for his holy Freakshow. He gets whatever he wants, cause, well, he's god, right? And he gets to change the rules whenever, unless the Pope and I reinterpret them. Cause that's our job.

And one of you has got to bring GOOD chocolate.
IIRC, Mojo is the chocolate supplier. I can go club him for some, mistress.

[bluess]

Ceritus, I apologize for taking part in the thread derailment. Great OP, but your respondent hasn't a clue.

[TobiasTheViking]

And as the antifreak, what would my job be at this.... orgy :D

[bluess]

IIRC, Mojo is the chocolate supplier. I can go club him for some, mistress.

No, dear, club him AFTER he hands over the chocolate. Or after he points to the supply.

Please get your priorities straight.

[bluess]

And as the antifreak, what would my job be at this.... orgy :D

Umm... you just get to stand there. You're not part of the cult, are you?

Oh, wait, this might be a even powers thing, in which case if you bring enough chocolate, women, or really hunky guys, you can take part.

[Freakshow]

And as the antifreak, what would my job be at this.... orgy :DYou get to clean up afterwards. :D

[bluess]

You get to clean up afterwards. :D

I bow to the superior knowledge and insight of Him.

[kmortis]

No, dear, club him AFTER he hands over the chocolate. Or after he points to the supply.

Please get your priorities straight.
Oh...yes...after. That's the problem.

I guess that's why you're High Priestess, and I'm the Arm of the Freakshow. I got the Titanium Cudgel of Freakshow's Glory, and you have...um...the High Priestess Bustier of Freakshow's Freak.

[bluess]

Oh...yes...after. That's the problem.

I guess that's why you're High Priestess, and I'm the Arm of the Freakshow. I got the Titanium Cudgel of Freakshow's Glory, and you have...um...the High Priestess Bustier of Freakshow's Freak.

Raise not my wrath, or I shall snap the laces of the holy bustier at you.

[kmortis]

Raise not my wrath, or I shall snap the laces of the holy bustier at you.
Well, you might have to provide a list of things for me to do...NOT to do, I mean..heh-heh-heh. I wouldn't want to have you bursting out of your Holy Bustier unnecessarily, now would I.

[bluess]

Well, you might have to provide a list of things for me to do...NOT to do, I mean..heh-heh-heh. I wouldn't want to have you bursting out of your Holy Bustier unnecessarily, now would I.

I think if we continue in this vein the mods will have to shut us down. Just like any good orgy.

[TobiasTheViking]

Hey, this antifreak isn't turning out to be the good deal i thoguht it would be.

Well, me and the sinners will just have our own orgy, with blackjack, and hookers.

[Genesius]

Ahem...

High Priestess here.

Women need more men than the other way around, except for his holy Freakshow. He gets whatever he wants, cause, well, he's god, right? And he gets to change the rules whenever, unless the Pope and I reinterpret them. Cause that's our job.

And one of you has got to bring GOOD chocolate.
Well, if the chocolate's covered I guess it's up to me to bring the booze.

OK, shopping list for the party:
booze - different kinds & LOTS OF IT
pointy Pope hat & robe
mechanical. . . party favors for the ladies, to keep them busy when mortal males need a rest.
camcorders, extension cords, maybe a PC & camera for a webcast

[Jitterbuggery]

Yeah, uh... who here ordered the herd of goats?

[bluess]

Release forms.
Cleanliness products.

[kmortis]

Ok, fellow Freakists. We now have our own thread to have our sacred orgies (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=50657) in. Let's give Certius his thread back, now that we've trashed it.

[bluess]

Yeah, uh... who here ordered the herd of goats?

Put them out on the back lawn.

And those who play with goats are responsible for cleaning up after them.

[kurious_kathy]

Hey, this antifreak isn't turning out to be the good deal i thoguht it would be.

Well, me and the sinners will just have our own orgy, with blackjack, and hookers.I hope to God that you aren't serious!

[bluess]

I hope to God that you aren't serious!

Nah, he's serious to Anti-Freak. That's completely different.

[TobiasTheViking]

I hope to God that you aren't serious!
Satan told me you would say that.. And thus we have proof of his existance, and proof of how he have made me STRONGER.

[bluess]

Satan told me you would say that.. And thus we have proof of his existance, and proof of how he have made me STRONGER.

Except for grammar.

The devil is NOT in the details.

;)

[Genesius]

I hope to God that you aren't serious!

You can hope anything to your feeble, pathetic god you like. Around here we worship the Holy Freakshow!

[TobiasTheViking]

You can hope anything to your feeble, pathetic god you like. Around here we worship the Holy Freakshow!
Well, i worship Satan. But then again, i am the antifreak.

[Genesius]

Well, i worship Satan. But then again, i am the antifreak.

Piffle and pshaw! Your Satan doesn't stand a chance against the His Freakness' Holy Biomechanoid and his Titanium Cudgel! Repent lest ye be squished!

[Ducky]

Piffle and pshaw! Your Satan doesn't stand a chance against the His Freakness' Holy Biomechanoid and his Titanium Cudgel! Repent lest ye be squished!



Who says I am his cudgel?

I am my own harbringer of woo doom.

[kmortis]

Who says I am his cudgel?

I am my own harbringer of woo doom.
Fowl,
I have the Titanium Cudgle of Freakshow's Glory. You can fit in as a different Titanium role, k?

[Genesius]

Who says I am his cudgel?

I am my own harbringer of woo doom.

Wasn't talking about you - please see post #216.

You and your significant other are welcome to join Freakshow's worship. You are certainly biomechanical enough that Kmortis will be happy to see you.

[Ducky]

Fowl,
I have the Titanium Cudgle of Freakshow's Glory. You can fit in as a different Titanium role, k?



Why you gotta use *MY* metal?

What's wrong with Iron? Or even Carbon Fiber Composites?

bloody biomechanoid freaks...